Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to James Lark about his choice of The Mark of the Rani (2/2)

Transcript

Talks to James Lark about his choice of The Mark of the Rani (2/2) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:35
  Welcome back to Hamster Luddite Club, in which I asked popular
• 0:39
  podcast host Joe Ford to list the 10 modern advancements he
• 0:43
  would most like to smash. If you heard Part 1, you'll know
• 0:46
  that he has already smashed the telephone, or as he called it,
• 0:52
  the interfering chatter tube. He's smashed the Audi, something
• 0:58
  which I can certainly get behind as a concept.
• 1:01
  He has smashed sliced bread, which does raise the question of
• 1:05
  what bar he's going to use next time he wants to say that
• 1:07
  something is better than the best thing since something he he
• 1:12
  he smashed Ian Levine's television following the mid 80s
• 1:15
  hiatus of Doctor Who and Milton Keynes.
• 1:20
  Joe, how are you? I've been around since and
• 1:24
  smashed Ian Levine's latest TV since I watched his AI
• 1:28
  reconstructions, you know? I tell you what, I if if I could
• 1:31
  smash one thing, AI would be pretty high on the list.
• 1:34
  Do you know what I was frantically thinking then about
• 1:37
  what technological advancements I could.
• 1:40
  I didn't realise you had a pre planned for this episode.
• 1:44
  I was going, God, what can I say?
• 1:45
  The mobile phone? No, I really need that.
• 1:47
  The computer, No, I can't do this anymore.
• 1:50
  So I was really there's not much I can get rid of.
• 1:52
  Twitter Well after after my drive back from Weston Super
• 1:56
  Mare this morning, I would smash motor travel just across the
• 2:00
  board. So pleased I thought you were
• 2:01
  going to say you was going to smash Weston Super Mare.
• 2:03
  No, certainly not. Certainly not.
• 2:06
  You know. I'm not sure anyone would
• 2:08
  describe that as a modern advancement either.
• 2:10
  Although do you know, I'll be honest, right, Recently I was
• 2:13
  given some advice. Step away from your phone,
• 2:15
  right? And just do it for a whole
• 2:17
  weekend and see how you feel. It's the most relaxed I've been
• 2:21
  in a long, long time. I can well imagine that I can.
• 2:24
  Yeah, so maybe we should get smashing.
• 2:28
  Yeah, but then then how will I get kind of reassurance that
• 2:33
  people see me as relevant through very occasionally
• 2:36
  interacting with someone on social media?
• 2:38
  I mean, it's a dilemma, isn't it?
• 2:40
  How will people be dazzled by the meals that I create every
• 2:43
  single night? You know, good grief.
• 2:47
  I mean, if people don't see at least a picture of me once a
• 2:49
  week holding a Doctor Who book somewhere on social media, my
• 2:53
  life has no meaning. Yeah, I think we're gonna, I
• 2:58
  think we're in a chord. But actually, yeah, most
• 3:00
  progress is rubbish. Yes, but what is not rubbish and
• 3:05
  is indeed smashing is the Mark of the Ronnie starring Colin
• 3:09
  Baker. Well done 800 of these now.
• 3:12
  Couldn't have been better scripted by Pip and Jane Baker
• 3:14
  themselves. Fortuitous would be a more
• 3:18
  appetite effect I think you find.
• 3:20
  I'm glad we got that one right after all.
• 3:22
  Now, James, will you come into my parlour?
• 3:24
  Said the spider to the fly. Well, that depends.
• 3:28
  Is Luke Ward in your parlour? I.
• 3:31
  Wish he was. Yeah.
• 3:32
  Jesus Christ. Actually, I think he was quite a
• 3:35
  a well respected actor. You know, he went on to get to
• 3:37
  do some good work. I looked into it.
• 3:39
  Luke Ward. Yeah, you do, I think.
• 3:42
  Well, you you get Wikipedia up again and have a look.
• 3:45
  Well, I do, you know, I, I already have done that.
• 3:47
  And unlike Terence Alexander, who played Lord Ravensworth,
• 3:51
  there's not actually a link to Gary Cady's name, which suggests
• 3:55
  that his career was fairly short lived or, you know, not not
• 4:00
  considered worthy of a Wikipedia page, which which is not, which
• 4:04
  is known, but are necessarily. But I wonder if he didn't live,
• 4:10
  did he? I think he's still with us, you
• 4:12
  know? Yeah, he is.
• 4:15
  So did he stop acting? Is he still going?
• 4:18
  Are you trying to suggest that perhaps his career peaked in
• 4:21
  Mark and Tony episode 2 where he's clearly impressive?
• 4:26
  Phallus is on display I think. Tightest trousers I've ever seen
• 4:32
  anyone wear. I think everyone's career peaked
• 4:35
  in episode 2 of The Mark of the Ronnie.
• 4:38
  Yes. Well, no, you're right.
• 4:42
  It's certainly in Doctor Who terms because cancellation is
• 4:45
  just around the corner, but it's not there yet, isn't it?
• 4:49
  I'm I'm just now scrolling down Gary Cady's career and I'm
• 4:55
  afraid it does look like it peaked.
• 4:57
  With Mark and Arane. I say that like it's a shameful
• 5:00
  thing he's had. He's done a lot of acting, but
• 5:04
  when? Go on, hit a nose.
• 5:06
  Well, when a recent credit is a 2012 episode of Red Dwarf, you
• 5:10
  have to raise. A that's where I saw him.
• 5:13
  That's Oh, really? Yes, because obviously I still
• 5:16
  watch Red Dwarf. I love it.
• 5:18
  Yes, I saw him in that episode. It was at the end of when it
• 5:23
  came back on Dave. It was the end of that season.
• 5:26
  He played a simulant and he was in top to toe lever, very tight
• 5:31
  again, may I say, although you know, it's a bit older now.
• 5:33
  And yeah, it was quite very menacing.
• 5:37
  OK, I, yeah, so I I obviously haven't seen that because
• 5:42
  Luddite that I am, I'm pretending that Red Dwarf
• 5:45
  finished in 1993, which is when it should have finished.
• 5:48
  Well, I think yeah, yeah, that's probably the sadest decision you
• 5:51
  could make there. You're just basically watching
• 5:53
  the actors male otherwise. Yeah, under, under the heat of
• 5:57
  some rather underwhelming pastiches of much better scripts
• 6:02
  they did when they were younger. As unlikely as it is, something
• 6:06
  I said just then actually might be worth talking about.
• 6:09
  And that is the cancellation crisis is looming.
• 6:14
  But when the Mark of Irani went out on BBC One, obviously things
• 6:18
  were still looking good. It wasn't until The Three
• 6:21
  Doctors episode 3, wasn't it? That's when the cancellation or
• 6:24
  sorry, the hiatus. The two doctors, presumably.
• 6:27
  What did I say? You said the three doctors.
• 6:30
  Oh yeah, That wasn't a repeat. Now the Two Doctors episode 3,
• 6:32
  yeah, went out. That's when they announced the
• 6:34
  hiatus. And obviously, you know, it was
• 6:37
  all action stations for Ian Levine and his friends.
• 6:41
  But so this is sort of the last grace moment for the show before
• 6:47
  all of that cancellation anxiety which exists to this day.
• 6:51
  I must say, with every episode of Doctor Who coming out, there
• 6:55
  is a portion of Doctor Who fans that are agonizing at the fact
• 6:59
  that maybe this will be the point where it's cancelled.
• 7:03
  It's funny, isn't it? So Toby Haydock talks very
• 7:06
  eloquently about that kind of anxiety.
• 7:07
  Toby Haydock, do you know I've I've I've misspoken by saying
• 7:11
  that this was the the Doctor Who podcast because although I am a
• 7:14
  a patron of your good self, I'm a a patron of his as well.
• 7:17
  Me too. So we ought to, we ought to
• 7:20
  clarify that this is this is the podcast only, only when you've
• 7:25
  finished your Toby's. This really could be scripted.
• 7:31
  Could. Pippin Chain has just They're no
• 7:35
  longer with us, but but but they live on in my effortlessly witty
• 7:39
  and verbose. Dialogue.
• 7:40
  It is worth noting, you know that Toby and I are incestuous
• 7:43
  every now and again. Yes, Yeah.
• 7:45
  No. He's popped on here to do 5 1/2
• 7:48
  hour commentary on the Siluras, which is only three hours long,
• 7:52
  so I'm not sure how we got there.
• 7:53
  Oh wait, it was Sobe Haydock and I forced him to watch Spy Fall
• 7:57
  Part 1 and 2 where he didn't quite manage to be as positive
• 8:02
  as perhaps his podcast claims. Nevertheless, both very
• 8:05
  entertaining podcasts. Oh, thank you very much.
• 8:08
  And of course, getting you and Toby together, it's like the two
• 8:11
  doctors, isn't it? It's like, no, it's like the
• 8:13
  master. It's like the master and the
• 8:14
  run. Excuse me, who is who I'm.
• 8:19
  Going to have to think about that one, I suspect.
• 8:21
  I suspect that you're the Rani in this.
• 8:24
  Oh please, I can do that sort of fabulous hair, you know, makeup,
• 8:28
  cheekbones, tattoos, some blush on the lip.
• 8:31
  What was I going to say then? I.
• 8:33
  Don't know, I've gone very. Well, if those were both
• 8:37
  entertaining podcasts, shall we create an entertaining podcast
• 8:40
  by watching the Mark of the Ronnie episode 2?
• 8:42
  We can only try. We'll count as in their place.
• 8:47
  OK, we're going to go with part Part 2 of the Mark of the Ronnie
• 8:50
  in 321. You know, I realized I was
• 8:54
  having a a somewhat profound effect on Toby Haydock when he
• 8:58
  popped up on one of our podcasts and started spewing out double
• 9:02
  entendres like you wouldn't believe.
• 9:04
  Script is he had them ready to go.
• 9:08
  That. Well, there we go.
• 9:11
  I could. You think Pip and Jay never
• 9:13
  wrote duble entendres? Do you think they ever wrote
• 9:15
  filth? Now listen to me, James Lark.
• 9:18
  I read the Mark of the Ronnie novelization.
• 9:20
  Yeah, ahead of doing this commentary.
• 9:23
  You just reminded me I've got a screen print.
• 9:25
  Please continue the commentary whilst I find it and I'll read
• 9:29
  it out to you. I'm hoping that this is this is
• 9:31
  like the answer to my question is no, the filthiest thing they
• 9:34
  wrote is just the novelization of this story.
• 9:37
  But I wonder whether there was a kind of, a, some sort of doomed
• 9:40
  attempt at a, a late night piece of sort of period erotica or
• 9:45
  something. Just, you know, people, posh
• 9:48
  people saying slightly filthy things but using a lot of words
• 9:51
  to do it. Some of these passages in this
• 9:54
  book, Yeah, if they're innocent. No, I just don't believe it.
• 10:00
  Please continue talking. I must find these now to read to
• 10:03
  you. So this is how, how do you know
• 10:08
  what? No, because I have a question
• 10:09
  for you. So while you're looking, how do
• 10:11
  you feel about the slightly cheaty cliffhanger resolution
• 10:17
  people get? Very upset about this.
• 10:19
  I don't really care. The cliffhanger has done its job
• 10:23
  OK, and I need a resolution. So the fact that the resolution
• 10:26
  was there all along, but I wasn't Privy to it, well, that's
• 10:30
  fine, because the resolution, the cliffhanger was there when I
• 10:32
  needed it, and the resolution was there when I needed it.
• 10:35
  The thing that's slightly funny is that the the, for once, Sarah
• 10:40
  Hennings doesn't. I think because they're filmed.
• 10:42
  I think because they are filmed separately.
• 10:44
  I mean, the the rescue itself is very beautifully shot.
• 10:48
  It's when you get that kind of static shot of him in the
• 10:51
  distance running out of the woods, and the woods could be
• 10:53
  anywhere. They don't match the location at
• 10:55
  all. So it really does look like kind
• 10:57
  of, you know, the the thing where one Monty Python sketch
• 11:01
  invades another and you have a historical character suddenly
• 11:04
  running from a different feature to dive in and rescue the
• 11:08
  doctor. George Stevenson.
• 11:10
  It is George Stevenson, and I love that it's George Stevenson.
• 11:13
  As you may know, I was was I still am really in into steam
• 11:19
  engines as a as a lad. And and so George Stephenson was
• 11:23
  the kind of celebrity that I wanted to see in a celebrity
• 11:26
  historical. And in fact, is this, is this
• 11:29
  the first celebrity historical that that could have?
• 11:31
  Pre time lash isn't it? That's just around the corner,
• 11:34
  but yes, I think it might be. It's also rather a better
• 11:37
  example than Time Lash. But it's the first time that I
• 11:39
  think kind of a, a character from his history has has been
• 11:42
  the focus in the in the way that George Stephenson is here.
• 11:45
  I love, I love how they use him in this because it's not the
• 11:48
  focus of the story. At all?
• 11:50
  No, but no. Exactly.
• 11:51
  And thus thus earns his titles in the way that you know,
• 11:56
  Odysseus or Marco Polo wouldn't. George Stephenson is purely
• 12:00
  there to be the celebrity kind of guest star.
• 12:03
  James So can I read you the the very short passage here
• 12:06
  describing the Doctor's descent into the pit in the cliffhanger?
• 12:10
  Yeah, if only if you can do it in either your your sexiest
• 12:15
  Northern or as the Rani. I certainly can't.
• 12:21
  I could do it in Jane Baker if you like, because she did write
• 12:24
  this. For God's sake, no everyone
• 12:26
  nightmares. You ready?
• 12:27
  The shaft loomed ominously into the Doctor's restricted view.
• 12:32
  A final mighty thrust, and the hapless Time Lord accelerated
• 12:38
  inexorably towards the yawning black hole.
• 12:42
  And that's the end of the chapter.
• 12:46
  And wait, wait, wait. I do take another little
• 12:48
  screenshot of another moment where she goes.
• 12:50
  Intrigued, he watched as the muscular humans humped the next
• 12:55
  donor through the parted wall. I mean, that's got to be
• 12:59
  deliberate, right? Right.
• 13:01
  Yeah, No, I I think you should do readings from the mark of the
• 13:04
  Irani, but but on a print like for your patrons only, but bonus
• 13:10
  late night Doctor Who. It's a much smaller audience,
• 13:13
  but discreet, you know? Oh my word.
• 13:17
  Right, so now we've the trousers.
• 13:18
  The trousers are now the star. Imagine being a celebrity in a
• 13:21
  historical having to compete with those trousers.
• 13:24
  Oh I love this him going. Be careful your father's not the
• 13:27
  man he was at just little gentle moments again.
• 13:30
  We don't get much of Luke before he turns, but I think, I just
• 13:35
  think he's. Or into a tree.
• 13:39
  Before he's maggoted, No, no. Before he.
• 13:41
  Before he goes bad, I. Mean he doesn't have a fun time,
• 13:44
  does he? Turning in the way I was
• 13:46
  suggesting is a lot more fun than what he goes through was,
• 13:50
  doesn't the Master say to him, Luke, I want you to swallow this
• 13:52
  very special sweet meat? Yes, he does.
• 13:57
  It must be deliberate. He could be telling the truth.
• 14:00
  I mean, for all we know those maggots are sweet, and a sweet
• 14:05
  meat is nothing if not a meat that is.
• 14:07
  That's true. Look at the the.
• 14:09
  I mean, I say the lighting, it's natural lighting down that.
• 14:12
  Time, I mean that's. Beautiful, isn't it?
• 14:16
  Yeah. So yeah, now please keep keep
• 14:18
  note of how much location there is in this episode.
• 14:22
  Yeah, I am. I am he's he's got cheekbones to
• 14:27
  rival Kate and Mara's, hasn't he?
• 14:29
  No wonder she does me to a tree. What?
• 14:31
  I mean, did you think they'd be chewing up together in every
• 14:34
  period drama? Wouldn't you?
• 14:35
  You're purely vindictive, she see.
• 14:37
  She senses a rival. You know that fabulous version
• 14:40
  of Pride and Prejudice they did with Alison Steadman?
• 14:43
  I do indeed. He should have been in there as
• 14:45
  Mr. Bingley. He looks brilliant in a wing
• 14:47
  collar, doesn't he? He would have been a great
• 14:49
  Bingley. Oh, mind you, look at the arms
• 14:51
  on him, Josh. Yeah, but the thing, the thing
• 14:54
  with I'm going to use his real name, Gary Cady, whose whose
• 14:58
  career as as I've intimated, has made little impression beyond
• 15:03
  this. He's gone down.
• 15:04
  But but he's one of those actors who actually looks, sort of.
• 15:09
  The more clothes he wears, the sexier he is.
• 15:11
  Yeah. And his his face looks like it's
• 15:15
  been parved. It's he is astonishingly
• 15:18
  beautiful to look up. Sorry, Anne Stanley, you haven't
• 15:21
  got a hope in this scene, I'm afraid.
• 15:25
  Especially with that. Telford, Faraday, Davey Brunel.
• 15:28
  I'm learning so much here. I'll be like, who are these
• 15:31
  names? Pip and Jane?
• 15:32
  Tell me more. I'll go and pick up my book and
• 15:35
  read it. Sorry, I'm just I'm distracted
• 15:42
  again by just going through Gary Cady's filmography.
• 15:46
  Oh, don't. It's going to make us sad, you
• 15:48
  know? Maybe he's in a load of stuff.
• 15:50
  Maybe I should just be? Oh, look at this.
• 15:53
  Look, because the key is more power.
• 15:56
  You've got the Doctor underneath.
• 15:58
  I mean, is it, what is it just an engine?
• 16:01
  Yeah, I mean, this used to bother me so.
• 16:04
  Why? But because fan of steam engines
• 16:08
  that I I could tell that this was a bit of ABBC probe.
• 16:14
  It does. It's not quite.
• 16:16
  But it's fun though it's. I do.
• 16:17
  No, I, I love Stevenson now. I love that it's there.
• 16:21
  Of course I love that it's there.
• 16:22
  And Gordon Granger is really good, isn't he?
• 16:24
  Oh fabulous. But was it?
• 16:26
  Was he very well known when this was made sort of a familiar
• 16:30
  face? Isn't it?
• 16:30
  I don't know much about his career at all, but again, again,
• 16:33
  it's quite understated his performance.
• 16:35
  Yeah. And you know the dialogue isn't
• 16:37
  so props through them. These poor kids look hump in the
• 16:43
  coal. About it's a lot of young extras
• 16:44
  they've they've really gone to town and kind of making sure
• 16:46
  there's a night that's that's sweet.
• 16:50
  The way he sort of Pats her head in a very kind of doctorish way.
• 16:57
  I feel doctorish Dr. And, you know, obviously you could find
• 17:00
  stories to counter this argument, but I think at his
• 17:04
  best, John Nathan Turner could put money on the screen far
• 17:10
  above and beyond what the budget was.
• 17:12
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stuff like Planet of Fire, stuff
• 17:15
  like this revelation of the Daleks.
• 17:17
  You know, he made, he could make it look like really.
• 17:20
  This is a handsome season though because the attack of the
• 17:22
  Sidemen is is a very nice looking story, whatever you
• 17:25
  think of the story itself. Whatever you think of the merits
• 17:28
  of the direction, I think The Two Doctors is quite a pretty
• 17:31
  story as well. Absolutely.
• 17:33
  And it sure, sure looks expensive.
• 17:36
  Has it encouraged you to go to Seville?
• 17:40
  It's on the list. Oh.
• 17:42
  Has has has it encouraged you to go to Seville?
• 17:44
  No, unfortunately not. No, I did go to Amsterdam, but I
• 17:47
  didn't see the Ergon. So I I can see nothing in
• 17:50
  Archive Infinity that would encourage anyone to go to
• 17:52
  Amsterdam. They've made, they've made
• 17:53
  Amsterdam, one of the most beautiful places in the world,
• 17:55
  look absolutely shit. It is after Colombia.
• 17:59
  Don't ask. It is my second favorite place.
• 18:02
  Oh no, I love Venice as well. But Amsterdam, Yeah, it was just
• 18:05
  stunning. And it just looks like a
• 18:06
  miserable day. I don't know.
• 18:08
  In Bogner, doesn't it it really Infinity?
• 18:11
  Sorry people of Bogner. But I, yeah, I think I'm more
• 18:14
  likely to go to the Bliss Hill Open Air Museum than I am to go
• 18:17
  to Seville in, in the near future anyway.
• 18:20
  But I've, I've, I have heard good things about Seville from,
• 18:22
  from, from people who are not Doctor Who fans as well.
• 18:25
  So people without that kind of reason, they've, I, I gather
• 18:29
  that it's very walkable, very tiny, lovely food.
• 18:33
  I do like Spain. I mean, I'm certainly a fan of
• 18:35
  Spain, so. I mean, I'm a fan of Spain, but
• 18:38
  I am much more than a fan of Italy.
• 18:41
  Yep. I I do love Italy.
• 18:43
  It might have something to know. I won't go there.
• 18:45
  Let's talk about Mark and the brownie in the book, though.
• 18:49
  I really like the fact that this bit in a minute ago where he
• 18:52
  goes, you know, you could set up powerhouses and process as many
• 18:56
  humans as you want. There's millions of them, you
• 18:58
  know. And in the book up until that
• 19:00
  point, yeah, she's been utterly like, oh, I just get out of my
• 19:03
  face for you. And then she thinks, oh,
• 19:05
  actually, that makes logical sense.
• 19:08
  I could do something with this. And then she's on board with
• 19:10
  like the Masters plans from that point on.
• 19:13
  And that does make sense. Yeah, and they end to this.
• 19:19
  I, I, I guess it also at this point in their relationship,
• 19:23
  they, the doctors become a, a thorn in both of their sides.
• 19:27
  So that's funny as well. I would just say everything is
• 19:30
  basically it's, it's, it's bordering between the dramatic
• 19:33
  and the comical. And, and their alliance is
• 19:35
  dramatically interesting because of course it's, you know, they
• 19:39
  clearly it's not going to last, but it's also hilarious because
• 19:42
  we know that they're funny together.
• 19:44
  They are very funny together. I mean, I'm not saying it ever
• 19:48
  would have come to it being, but I certainly would have watched a
• 19:50
  sitcom with the Master, Irani and the Doctor, you know, going
• 19:53
  about the universe together, sort of red total style.
• 19:56
  Definitely. Well, just a just a big finish
• 20:00
  box set. You remember what you said about
• 20:01
  the underscoring this scene where he goes to pick up the,
• 20:07
  oh, God, what is it like the metal pipe to slack him?
• 20:10
  There's a really subtle, menacing bit of music in this
• 20:13
  scene, but it just doesn't swamp in the way that the worst
• 20:17
  excesses of Season 22 music do. Yeah, I think Gibbs has really
• 20:21
  got something. Yeah.
• 20:26
  And and he's it's a very disciplined use of sound as
• 20:30
  well, because this is when when he's writing music to under
• 20:36
  score people who have possessed or he's writing the scenes
• 20:39
  specifically involving the Ronnie and her experiments, he
• 20:44
  introduces sounds that are not kind of synthesized versions of
• 20:47
  real instruments. So it's like musically, you've
• 20:49
  got the counterpart to this, the unknown coming into to to, which
• 20:54
  is why it's so clever to have established this kind of tea
• 20:58
  time drama feels the music at the start because, and then he
• 21:02
  can introduce the the other, the he he starts with a very
• 21:05
  recognisable platform of sounds that we associate with period
• 21:10
  drama. And then he introduces the
• 21:13
  otherworldly very subtly, but he only needs to do it subtly
• 21:17
  because we're we're already there.
• 21:18
  We already know what to expect from this this world.
• 21:21
  I don't often expect subtle from the mid 80s over SO.
• 21:26
  It's not a story where the way people write about it and talk
• 21:29
  about it, you it it. I don't think it has a
• 21:32
  reputation for being subtle, but actually I think that Mark
• 21:34
  Lorani is probably about as subtle as it gets in the season.
• 21:38
  I think it's Anna's gentle as it gets as well Anna's Doctor Hooby
• 21:42
  as it gets this season. But you say gentle and that it,
• 21:45
  it sounds like we're damning it with faint praise, you know, No,
• 21:48
  no, no, no. I I mean it's.
• 21:50
  There is some terrible things happening to people like she
• 21:53
  just left her laboratory there and she went, he goes, well, you
• 21:55
  can't take these two with you. She goes, no, you're right, I
• 21:57
  can't and murders the pair of them.
• 22:00
  And as we've just about to find out, there was an exchange
• 22:03
  between the doctor and Perry. Then I just want to say it
• 22:06
  because I think it sums up their relationship perfectly where she
• 22:09
  goes, oh, doctor, you can't be serious.
• 22:12
  We can't go back in there. And the doctor goes, the victim
• 22:16
  returns to the scene of the crime.
• 22:19
  Her sort of on his coattails go, no, we can't do this.
• 22:22
  He's like, come on, let's go. Oh, I love the two of them.
• 22:27
  Look at the way Colin's kneeling down there.
• 22:30
  But it's like he's on the stage, isn't it?
• 22:32
  Yeah. He knows where his light is.
• 22:36
  He really does though. So this is This is why I think
• 22:39
  he basically generally he is an attractive and appealing Dr. But
• 22:47
  can you understand why people find him a bit much because he
• 22:51
  is so in your face? No, I can't really.
• 22:54
  What? What Doctor Who fans find him a
• 22:56
  bit much? What program have they been
• 22:58
  watching until this point? Was Tom?
• 23:00
  Was Tom Baker the height of subtlety for them?
• 23:02
  Was Jon Pertwee the kind of delicate, mild mannered flower
• 23:04
  that they like to watch? I mean, what?
• 23:06
  What are you talking about? No, I think it's just Peter
• 23:10
  Davidson. He's the only one that you could
• 23:11
  possibly say is, well, we'll use that word again.
• 23:14
  Subtle. Peter Davidson does a lot of
• 23:19
  subtle things in his performance, but I don't think
• 23:21
  it's a subtle performance. And I, I, and I actually think
• 23:23
  Peter Davidson has suffered from the reputation of being the
• 23:26
  bland one when actually he's, he's pretty darn grumpy for most
• 23:30
  of the time. He's got a, a nervous energy to
• 23:34
  him that's really fascinating to watch.
• 23:36
  And, and it's not, it's a large performance.
• 23:39
  It's slightly the the difference between Peter and Colin, and
• 23:42
  it's both, to Colin's credit, and it is occasionally his
• 23:46
  downfall is that Colin commits whatever he's asked to do.
• 23:50
  Whether he's asked to strangle his companion or, you know, go
• 23:55
  disturbingly mad while he's changing his costume or or
• 24:00
  deliver a really bad joke, Colin believes it's his job to deliver
• 24:06
  that 100%. And he does it.
• 24:09
  And it makes his doctor a real a doctrine.
• 24:11
  It makes the bit and makes it. It's the thing that makes it
• 24:13
  work. When it really does work.
• 24:14
  By golly it works. Peter Davidson would always be
• 24:17
  giving a slightly awkward look to the camera, not quite
• 24:20
  committing to it, not quite believing in the moment if if he
• 24:23
  didn't believe in the writing. Which is why Peter Davison is
• 24:26
  always at his best when the writing is good.
• 24:28
  Do you remember that bit at the end of More Than Under 3 where
• 24:31
  he has to go, go? Don't you understand it'll be
• 24:33
  the end of me as a Time Lord. You can imagine Colin to claim
• 24:36
  in that he sort of goes, of course you understand, it'll be
• 24:39
  the end of me as a Time Lord. And you get that quite a lot in
• 24:43
  Peter Davidson's as I can see where you get it in Castro Valva
• 24:46
  is a part Part 3 Cliff hangers. Castro, Valva, you get it in.
• 24:50
  He's a bit embarrassed, isn't he?
• 24:52
  He's a bit embarrassed and. You can't embarrass Colin.
• 24:55
  I mean you. Can't embarrass Colin.
• 24:58
  You could try. And maybe that's maybe that's
• 25:01
  what people mean because Colin did his job and he committed
• 25:05
  100% when he was given shit to do, Peter didn't.
• 25:10
  And Tom would have rewritten it. You know, he took him up with a
• 25:13
  different line all together and he'd have pissed everyone off.
• 25:16
  But he would have said, I'm not saying this crap.
• 25:18
  So, yeah, I think that Colin sometimes by being such a
• 25:22
  consummate professional, through no fault of his own, made
• 25:27
  himself look, look a bit silly. But that's not on him.
• 25:32
  Because and I would say, yeah, reliably, the standard of
• 25:36
  writing he's had for Big Finish has been of such a higher
• 25:40
  quality. And obviously he commits to that
• 25:43
  every bit as much as he committed to it on the TV.
• 25:46
  But that's just, it just brings out everything, right?
• 25:49
  Sometimes they they fail to do on the television.
• 25:53
  The thing and also Colin is for all that I've said that, you
• 25:56
  know, he's theatrical. He knows how to hit his light.
• 25:59
  He finds good stances. He is a vocal actor and you,
• 26:05
  you, you appreciate it more Big Finish because obviously that's
• 26:09
  all you've got. But the way he's he can soften
• 26:12
  his voice and elongate his words or speed up and get through
• 26:16
  loads of dialogue in a really short space of time.
• 26:18
  That rhythm is key to his performance.
• 26:22
  And I think you get that from the word go.
• 26:24
  I think you get that it's certainly an attack on the
• 26:26
  Cybermen. I think that that that control
• 26:29
  is is. Even that mad sequence that you
• 26:32
  were just talking about there where it's like nothing but the
• 26:36
  the crushing borders of the universe.
• 26:39
  You know, when he's. Yeah, the rhythm of that is.
• 26:42
  Gorgeous. I mean, that's, that's why it's
• 26:44
  problematic, because it's, it genuinely is utterly terrifying.
• 26:48
  It's inappropriate in the in the extreme.
• 26:50
  But skip forward just one season.
• 26:52
  Yeah, one season to mysterious planet.
• 26:55
  Planets come and go, stars perish.
• 26:57
  You know, it's poetry and. It's and it's up there with the
• 27:00
  greatest moments of classic. Who?
• 27:01
  Absolutely. Oh, I love it.
• 27:04
  This scene is good as well the. Eavesdropping on the Master and
• 27:06
  the Ronnie from around the corner.
• 27:09
  This is like a panto now, isn't it?
• 27:11
  I know that her TARDIS design only gets more shopping centre
• 27:16
  in Dimensions in Time, but what do we think of her her TARDIS
• 27:21
  here? This one I love.
• 27:23
  I love the console with that weird I don't know how you
• 27:26
  describe. It the weird the weird geometric
• 27:28
  spinny thing in the middle I. Love it.
• 27:31
  And J&T said, didn't he do not destroy this set?
• 27:34
  And they did. And he was furious.
• 27:36
  And that's why in time in the row, she's got a shingle CSO
• 27:40
  backdrop. Yeah, I like as well.
• 27:43
  I like the fact that she's got her Tyrannosaurus experiments
• 27:46
  just on plimps. I think the the problem for me
• 27:50
  is the colour scheme and I think pink on grey is very British
• 27:55
  Home Stores circa 1985. Yes, I think you're probably
• 28:01
  right. I like the design of it though.
• 28:03
  I. Do like the.
• 28:03
  Design. It's not just like the Masters.
• 28:05
  It's not just a black version of the Doctors Tardis.
• 28:08
  You know, she's a bit more style than oh this.
• 28:11
  The fun music, the way he's fiddling about under the
• 28:14
  console. He's sort of being a bit
• 28:16
  naughty, isn't he? Is that a bit of a child?
• 28:18
  It's a lovely scene and it's an it's quite rare for Doctor Who
• 28:22
  in this area to just slow down and let someone explore
• 28:24
  something the way he he gets the chance to there.
• 28:27
  I don't know if you remember, you know, but in the
• 28:29
  discontinuity guide they said the scene where the Doctor
• 28:32
  tinkers with the TARDIS is one of the few genuinely great
• 28:36
  scenes of the era. Now I won't go that far.
• 28:39
  I don't. I don't agree either with the
• 28:42
  premise that there are not greater scenes than that in the
• 28:44
  era, but also that it's that great.
• 28:46
  But it but it does feel very natural.
• 28:48
  It feels like a you know, this is Doctor Who working really
• 28:51
  well. I like it when he's naughty, you
• 28:54
  know, when he gets to be naughty.
• 28:55
  The hardest, the exterior as well, is a little bit like a a
• 28:59
  British Home Stores cupboard circa 1985.
• 29:03
  Did you have a British Home Stores cupboard?
• 29:05
  No, but I was dragged around British Home Stores.
• 29:07
  Quite a line. Me too, me too.
• 29:10
  You know, the the other thing I was going to say about Colin is
• 29:13
  the difference between him and Peter Davidson.
• 29:15
  I always know when Colin is in the room, whereas I can easily
• 29:18
  forget when Peter Davidson's in the room is the Doctor because I
• 29:21
  don't think he tries to hog the limelight in the same way.
• 29:24
  No, and that is that's a real strength of Davidson.
• 29:28
  I think a lot of it comes from the fact that he landed 3
• 29:31
  companions at the start, so he wasn't going to dominate in the
• 29:34
  way that Colin Baker is able to because he was part of an
• 29:37
  ensemble. But tellingly, in Arc of
• 29:39
  Infinity, when they're on the screen together, I'm looking at
• 29:42
  Colin. Yeah, yeah.
• 29:46
  And some would some would say that's the problem, like John
• 29:48
  Hilton Turner. He shot him as well, you know.
• 29:53
  Oh look, Perry is now putting her botany, which we've
• 29:55
  established in episode 1, to great use, going to Red Ferndale
• 29:59
  to find her bar Baculum Vitae, is that right?
• 30:04
  No, that's Revelation and a Daleks.
• 30:07
  She's a good looking workshop actually, just looking at all
• 30:09
  the the the gubbins I'm sure it's all from the BBC store
• 30:12
  cupboard, but it that looks like a real Victorian workshop isn't
• 30:16
  it? Valerian, that's what she's
• 30:19
  looking for. Have you ever had valerian tea?
• 30:23
  It's very good to help you. Sleep Valerian tea.
• 30:25
  Yeah, I haven't. But now I've I've clearly I need
• 30:31
  to go and investigate valerian tea.
• 30:35
  Yes, if you go and look at all, you know, those sort of sleep
• 30:39
  teas they sell in supermarkets. I know, but they all taste
• 30:42
  horrible, don't they? They taste like perfume, but
• 30:44
  they do. Yeah, they smell and taste like
• 30:47
  they. Yeah, maybe.
• 30:48
  I'm so glad we're talking about tea because that long shot of
• 30:51
  Luke, really, it's very distracting.
• 30:57
  I like how sulky she is. I like how he jangles the chains
• 31:00
  and it's like, I'm just here and she's like, yeah.
• 31:04
  I could have been stuck in the 1900s forever, She goes.
• 31:08
  If you like her sulky, I don't think you're going to be
• 31:10
  disappointed in Season 22, you know?
• 31:12
  I'd I'd like her sulky. No, I don't like her sulky.
• 31:15
  I like her kind of sassy. Like not I have AI have a theory
• 31:19
  about Perry. I think she has, I think she has
• 31:23
  the worst trip in the TARDIS of any companion.
• 31:26
  Oh, absolutely, yes. She she joins at a time of kind
• 31:33
  of, you know, family tragedy. The next adventure is the case
• 31:37
  of Andrazani. And she nearly dies and and then
• 31:44
  the Doctor regenerates and she doesn't know who she's with and
• 31:47
  she's nearly strangled. And then, and she's so badly
• 31:50
  treated in this, I mean, so misogynistically treated as
• 31:54
  well. She has a horrible, horrible,
• 31:55
  horrible time and then she dies. And whether you believe that
• 32:01
  that's where it ends or you believe that she ends up
• 32:04
  marrying Brian Lessit, it's it's not the it's not what, it's not
• 32:08
  what young Perry would have hoped for, is it?
• 32:10
  She's really, she has a really, really bad time.
• 32:13
  So I quite like it in this story that she answers back and she
• 32:17
  doesn't take any shit and she tells the doctor what she
• 32:20
  thinks. Because because a lot of the
• 32:22
  time Perry is reduced to this kind of gibbering parody of
• 32:25
  someone going through these things where actually I think a
• 32:27
  real people would just say it's not going in the TARDIS again.
• 32:31
  It's always terrible. Half my issue with it as well is
• 32:34
  I think Nicola Bryan is a very good actress and portrays the
• 32:39
  horrible things that she goes through.
• 32:42
  Like certainly in Andrew Zanley really, really well.
• 32:47
  And it's most it's about as adult as the show's ever got.
• 32:51
  You know a bit where where he shows his face and then she
• 32:56
  screams and he goes on. It's just horrible.
• 32:59
  The anxiety that she's doing is palpable.
• 33:03
  But that's, but that's another case where big Finnish have done
• 33:06
  amazing work because, of course, because they set a ton of
• 33:11
  stories and there's space for it for once between Revelation of
• 33:15
  the Daleks and The Mysterious Planet, where they are
• 33:18
  definitely in a softer, gentler, much more fun relationship.
• 33:23
  And yeah, they've done a host of stories in that where she just
• 33:27
  gets to soften with Colin. And obviously they've been busy
• 33:30
  mates for years as actors. So they, they weren't like their
• 33:33
  chemistry like gangbusters in those stories.
• 33:35
  And it is the Doctor and Perry we would have loved to have seen
• 33:39
  on the TV. Yeah.
• 33:42
  Yeah, totally agree. And and like Colin Baker, Nicola
• 33:45
  Bryant has really got to show off her acting chops as well.
• 33:48
  Again, when I'm playing different versions of Perry.
• 33:51
  Did you ever hear Perry in The Pistcon Paradox?
• 33:54
  No. She's extraordinary in that one.
• 33:58
  I won't tell you anything because it's.
• 34:02
  The piston paradox. Yes, so I need.
• 34:05
  To search out the piston and I need to try some valerian tea.
• 34:08
  Yes, are. You making a list here.
• 34:13
  OK, I'm going to wake up. Everyone going hang on Pis
• 34:15
  Piscom Paradox Valerian Tea. I'll be searching the Big Finish
• 34:19
  website for a story called Valerian Tea, like it must be
• 34:22
  here, Joe told me. You love the fact that before
• 34:24
  she sort of goes out to put her deadly minds in a Dale, she's
• 34:27
  just going to fill up her little fluid air and and gently put it
• 34:32
  over. This is Tyrannosaurus.
• 34:33
  This is the point at which I think the story has lost its
• 34:36
  way, and it's unusual for Pip and Jane Baker to structurally
• 34:40
  do something this meandering at this stage in the story, because
• 34:44
  this is just where everything ought to be coming to a head.
• 34:46
  Suddenly, where's George Stephenson?
• 34:49
  He's sort of been exposed as not really relevant to this story, I
• 34:54
  guess. But it's it's a shame because
• 34:56
  he's a good character and we want to see more of him.
• 34:59
  You know, where is where are any of the Luddites?
• 35:02
  Where? Where are any of the characters
• 35:03
  that were so beautifully introduced in in episode 1?
• 35:08
  Where? You are going to see them.
• 35:10
  You were going to see the Luddites in a minute because
• 35:12
  they attacked I'm. Aware they're still there, but
• 35:14
  they're not. But suddenly the story is not
• 35:16
  about them at all. It's and, and you're right.
• 35:20
  Why is why is she kind of topping up her dinosaurs at this
• 35:22
  point? Can I?
• 35:23
  I can't tell you a where, but I can tell you I think a why, And
• 35:29
  that is because they got all this extra location work and
• 35:33
  it's all of these scenes that you've seen.
• 35:35
  Loaded then. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:37
  So basically there was a unit that was booked for a period
• 35:40
  drama that fell through and the BBC put out a memo saying we've
• 35:43
  got an OB crew for like 4 days work and who wants it.
• 35:49
  JNT saw it and went me, you know, grabbed hold of it as soon
• 35:52
  as he can and he allocated it to this story.
• 35:54
  So then Pip and Jane had to rewrite a load of this for lots
• 35:59
  of scenes that were in studios to be done on location, and a
• 36:03
  lot of it was this stuff. Here, well, there you go.
• 36:05
  So it's beautiful padding, but it is padding and and whereas
• 36:08
  Episode 1 feels very focused to me.
• 36:11
  Yeah, So, yeah. And it is very pretty.
• 36:14
  But you're right, it doesn't meander because you can't watch
• 36:17
  like Terra the verve voice that is plotted to the hilt.
• 36:20
  That story. I mean maybe over plotted but
• 36:23
  everything ties together in that 4th episode.
• 36:26
  Well, or even time in the Rani, which is is far from perfect,
• 36:30
  but you know, in terms of plotting it, every episode
• 36:33
  advances in a a particular way. I also, I mean there is this
• 36:37
  general feeling that the writers didn't really know how to do 45
• 36:40
  minutes. Yes.
• 36:42
  If any of them were going to do it right, I think Pip and Jane
• 36:45
  would have been the ones I'd have put money on.
• 36:47
  But but what you say about location work makes complete
• 36:51
  sense because it suddenly feels like we're just we're going down
• 36:54
  a completely different path. And all of these 45 minutes
• 36:57
  stories in season 22, structurally, they're very odd,
• 37:00
  aren't they? Attack an Assignment has two
• 37:02
  very different episodes, I think.
• 37:04
  Avengers yeah, it's about right, but the Doctor and Perry still
• 37:07
  take far too long to arrive. 2 Doctors is probably too long and
• 37:11
  has lots of sort of meandering talkie scenes.
• 37:14
  Time Lash. There's far too much happening
• 37:17
  in that, too many ideas and revelation.
• 37:20
  Well, it is basically not Doctor Who for the 1st.
• 37:23
  Episode I think Revelation is is is great television, but it's
• 37:27
  it's not great Doctor Who. So Luke's just turned into a
• 37:32
  pantomime tree. And yes.
• 37:35
  I feel like they've made a slight error in the choice of
• 37:41
  location. I don't think that tree would
• 37:43
  stand out in a forest of thick trunked trees, and I'm not a
• 37:49
  tree specialist, but I know, I know.
• 37:52
  I do enough wandering through forests to know that there are
• 37:55
  plenty of locations where they could have found trees to match
• 37:57
  that fake tree, and instead they're in this forest of
• 38:01
  spindly trees where the fake tree looks about as real as
• 38:03
  something in the set of a pantomime.
• 38:05
  I mean. Where did you imagine they call
• 38:07
  that tree from to put a person inside so.
• 38:10
  No, the problem there, there are two possibilities, and they're
• 38:15
  both problematic. The first is that it literally
• 38:19
  had featured in kind of the Blue Peter pantomime or something and
• 38:23
  they were like, well, just kind of just this tree up for Doctor
• 38:26
  Who and that's why it looks like a pantomime tree.
• 38:29
  The other option is that they built it from scratch and it was
• 38:31
  really expensive, but they don't have the budget to make a real
• 38:35
  looking tree so it still looks like it was taken from the Blue
• 38:37
  Peter pantomime. No, there's a third option, you
• 38:40
  know, which is even worse than one and two put together.
• 38:44
  What They actually turned Gary Cagey in into a tree and that's
• 38:48
  why his career stalled at. This point, I mean his wood is
• 38:52
  slightly less impressive now. No, it's I.
• 38:56
  Don't know, that's quite a big branch that's.
• 38:58
  Very true. I think we can both agree on
• 39:02
  that. No, it's that that the tree was
• 39:05
  hanging about and JNT said could you just turn someone into a
• 39:08
  tree? Because we've got this tree in
• 39:10
  the stores and it was imposed on them.
• 39:14
  But I think Pip and Jane are mad enough to have actually written
• 39:17
  it themselves. I think so.
• 39:20
  Especially you know the Ron is mad rationalization they've.
• 39:24
  Given her, you know, they've given her a mad rat indeed.
• 39:27
  They've gone. No, this is how them this is how
• 39:29
  the Ronnie would kill someone. Animal matter has been turned
• 39:33
  into vegetable matter. So what?
• 39:34
  She goes, OK, although I do love the line about the laburnum
• 39:39
  tree. Do you remember that?
• 39:44
  Where they're talking about what tree he would turn into the
• 39:47
  master. Yeah, because they're poisonous.
• 39:50
  Yeah, a little bit contrived. What do you imagine is the most
• 39:54
  beautiful tree? What do I imagine is the most
• 39:59
  beautiful tree? I don't know a weeping Willow
• 40:03
  or. James, you would turn into a
• 40:05
  weeping Willow, you know. Absolutely.
• 40:09
  I'd be something terribly box standard.
• 40:12
  I'd be an oak or something, you know, very sturdy.
• 40:15
  I. Don't know, I reckon I'd end up
• 40:17
  a large. What's that?
• 40:20
  I don't know, it's just that Monty Python sketch of how to
• 40:22
  identify trees. It's always a large, isn't it?
• 40:27
  Oh God, I wish Colin would not hold the tissue compression
• 40:30
  eliminator like that. Even even the name of it is
• 40:33
  ridiculous. Yeah, now we're just sort of.
• 40:39
  So this is this is the same acting that we used in the Five
• 40:43
  Doctors for the chess board, isn't it?
• 40:45
  Sometimes you take very, very dainty steps and sometimes you
• 40:49
  leap like a maniac. I think the sort of the acting
• 40:54
  cue is just make it up, you know, jump about from there to
• 40:58
  there and make it look convincing.
• 41:00
  Look at all that poetry. Oh, well, she is right though.
• 41:05
  He's going to live a lot longer now.
• 41:08
  Yes, yes. I just think of all the all the
• 41:12
  things that Luke could have, could have done.
• 41:15
  Think about that, Joe. Think of all the things that
• 41:17
  Luke could have done. It's very moving, isn't it?
• 41:23
  Here they come, Luke. Here's the well.
• 41:25
  You don't want to know, you know.
• 41:27
  Here come the Luddites now. Right, And this is where I, I do
• 41:31
  think the scene is great. I I love the tension when Perry
• 41:35
  is left guarding them with the misguided object.
• 41:41
  She goes. I don't want to touch that.
• 41:44
  I won't hesitate to use this. Although then the Ronnie has her
• 41:48
  fit, doesn't she? Her pretend fit.
• 41:51
  And that's like we're back in a panto again.
• 41:53
  Yeah, and and that's where Perry let's us.
• 41:56
  But then Perry's compassionate. It's it sort of works.
• 41:59
  It does all feel like padding still.
• 42:01
  And then there's a weird scene in the mine where the the the
• 42:05
  master's like blasting. Yes.
• 42:09
  It's like, what's that all the? Way.
• 42:11
  What are you doing? How did we get from that period
• 42:14
  trauma to this? Oh dear, Never mind.
• 42:19
  You know it's still fun. And you know the the indignity
• 42:23
  of poor Colin Baker being trussed up on that pole between
• 42:27
  two rubber trees. Yeah, except that I do quite
• 42:32
  like at last it feels like there is some genuine jeopardy here.
• 42:36
  Like at least the the that extended bit of padding leads to
• 42:39
  something which, you know, it's quite the the younger view of me
• 42:46
  found found him struggling as the the thing it's quite well
• 42:51
  done when the when the poll gradually touches the ground and
• 42:54
  he's having to be quite gymnastic to avoid the the the
• 42:57
  mine and the whole setup is ridiculous.
• 42:59
  It's not how minefields work and.
• 43:02
  I'll tell you what it is, though, it's how Colin plays it.
• 43:05
  He, he acts it as if he's in genuine peril.
• 43:08
  And that counts for a lot, I think, especially when they're
• 43:11
  dangerous and that absurd, you know, what he just said there.
• 43:15
  I've always sort of wanted a moment in life to be able to say
• 43:18
  something like that. You know, you're making a
• 43:20
  terrible mistake. I am not your enemy.
• 43:24
  OK. I was thinking I'm going to
• 43:26
  start using the lineup stop roveling when I'm when I'm
• 43:30
  teaching. Oh no, don't do that.
• 43:34
  Although actually, in a minute you do get a glorious moment
• 43:38
  where when they dash back to the TARDIS the Ronnie kicks and
• 43:41
  Master right in the nuts to get him away from the console.
• 43:43
  Oh, I. Should look out for that.
• 43:45
  Yeah. Oh, it's so funny.
• 43:47
  That bit was excised from the book.
• 43:52
  Oh Colin, bless you. But so where's Lord Ravensworth
• 43:56
  and where? They just sort of pop up at the
• 43:58
  end and go, well, what is this, George?
• 44:00
  Stevenson That's a good effect. I mean the trees look rubbish
• 44:04
  but but the actual effect is good.
• 44:05
  The explosions are very effective and like I say, this
• 44:09
  is finally something's happening.
• 44:10
  And it's not just kind of because it's been very, very
• 44:13
  talky this episode. And we are cussing between sort
• 44:15
  of Perry in danger and the Doctor in danger, which is nice.
• 44:19
  But you're right. You feel as if George Stephenson
• 44:22
  should be a vital part of the climax of this story somehow.
• 44:25
  Yeah, and things have been set up and, and, and what's actually
• 44:27
  happening in this episode? Well, the, the, the Master and
• 44:32
  the Rania are going to try and take over the world or whatever
• 44:36
  ridiculous thing they've decided to do.
• 44:38
  It's, it's essentially that, isn't it?
• 44:40
  And the Doctor's going to stop them.
• 44:41
  So it we're we're we're suddenly in a rather less sophisticated
• 44:45
  narrative. And you remember, they're going
• 44:47
  to harness the talents of those genius to create a power base
• 44:51
  the universe has never seen. Well, exactly.
• 44:53
  It might as well be a giant brain in a in a secret room 0.
• 44:57
  I love that break. Did you see that brain when it
• 45:00
  was auctioned on? Did you see it?
• 45:03
  I didn't, James. Did you?
• 45:04
  Did you bid for it? No, it was going for several
• 45:07
  1000 lbs, but it was in such a terrible state.
• 45:10
  It was decaying. I bet it was.
• 45:12
  Yeah. Oh God.
• 45:13
  And the shimmering baby as well. What do you?
• 45:16
  Do with it. The shimmering baby just looked
• 45:18
  like a load of snot. It was just someone bought it
• 45:20
  though. Of course I did.
• 45:23
  Oh, he's very clever here now though, when he uses the pole to
• 45:26
  sweep the minefield. Yeah.
• 45:29
  Oh, he's a clever, resourceful. I like that scene because as I
• 45:32
  say, it's for a change. It's not talking.
• 45:35
  And we've we've got some action and it just, it does.
• 45:38
  It feels like a story in which the doctor, he foils the
• 45:42
  villains, but he doesn't really save anyone.
• 45:46
  No, yeah, I know what you mean. Like he's the hero Pharrell, but
• 45:51
  he doesn't really get his big heroic climax where because they
• 45:55
  just sort of go off and all he's done is tinker with the TARDIS
• 45:59
  and send them back to the beginning of the universe
• 46:01
  something. I guess he, I guess he, he
• 46:06
  rescues the, he rescues the the vial, the very tiny vial of
• 46:12
  liquid and gives it to Lord Ravensworth without actually
• 46:16
  explaining what to do with it. I know, but she's still
• 46:18
  murdered. You know, Josh and Tom and all
• 46:21
  those people. How about are we supposed to buy
• 46:24
  that? How are you supposed to get it
• 46:25
  back into the people that it's been taken from?
• 46:29
  I think it's best we don't think about that.
• 46:35
  A hypodermic needle. We'll say, oh that's right, he's
• 46:40
  really pissed Now he goes, why the hell couldn't they just
• 46:42
  leave the pair of him? The disdain that they have for
• 46:47
  each other. I thought they were supposed to
• 46:48
  be busy mates back at the Time Lord Academy.
• 46:51
  Oh, it's a rather different relationship here, isn't it?
• 46:54
  Definitely, yes. Yeah.
• 46:57
  Would you have brought back Kate O'Mara in trial of a Time Lord?
• 47:00
  Do you think she deserves like the Master once once a season?
• 47:04
  I don't know that. Please don't say you don't have
• 47:09
  brought her back at all. Well, obviously I no, I'd have,
• 47:14
  I'd have brought Kate O'Mara back.
• 47:15
  Of course, I would have done. I, I don't know that the trial
• 47:17
  of the Time Lord season was would have been the right one.
• 47:19
  I feel like there are there are enough villains in that.
• 47:22
  I think the master's the right person to be in that space at
• 47:25
  the right time. We've got the Valley Yard.
• 47:27
  We've got some minor villains as well, like Glitz.
• 47:29
  I think the Ronnie would have been slightly wasted in that in
• 47:32
  in that. When she makes her triumphant
• 47:34
  return in time and the Ronnie, it's just her, isn't it?
• 47:38
  It is, yeah. It is just her.
• 47:40
  It is triumphant and it's it's totally the wrong time in the
• 47:45
  series to bring her back. What we needed at that point was
• 47:48
  like a remembrance of the Daleks to remind everybody this was a a
• 47:53
  show to be reckoned with. What we got was the most
• 47:55
  colorful pantomime the show ever gave us.
• 47:59
  But in retrospect, we can enjoy it for what?
• 48:01
  It loves, I mean her entrance. Leave the girl.
• 48:05
  That's the man I want. Words to live by.
• 48:09
  Yes, Now. Oh, you've just missed the bit
• 48:13
  where you need him in the nuts. He doesn't look well though,
• 48:15
  does he? Could.
• 48:18
  Have a little. You could have a little, little
• 48:20
  book of Ronnie, couldn't you? For the one.
• 48:22
  That the counter on Watson is just a little kind of mottos and
• 48:26
  quotes to live by. Leave the girl, it's the man I
• 48:30
  want. I saw a table full of those
• 48:32
  books you know that you tweeted about and I nearly upturned it
• 48:35
  when I went in. Oh, the Boris Johnson book,
• 48:39
  Right at the front of that somewhere, but right at the
• 48:41
  front. Yeah.
• 48:42
  What a whole table. Yeah.
• 48:45
  Stop. Stop giving the man oxygen.
• 48:47
  Literally if possible. Now I need to ask you about
• 48:52
  successful carnivorous monsters in Doctor Who.
• 48:56
  Yeah, because in a minute we do get a sort of a growing
• 48:59
  Tyrannosaurus Rex. Is it a?
• 49:02
  Successful, carnivorous. Go on.
• 49:06
  Well, so I was going to say, well, is this the most
• 49:08
  successful attempt? Obviously we've had the Scarasan
• 49:11
  in Terror of the Zygons, you know, rearing its head up from
• 49:14
  the Thames. We've had all of those fabulous
• 49:17
  creatures in Invasion of the Dinosaurs in their little sort
• 49:20
  of motley sets. Do you think this is the most
• 49:23
  successful attempt? That's an actual dinosaur, yes,
• 49:27
  but I think the most successful dinosaur is probably a drashing.
• 49:32
  Oh, yes, yes. They're all rubbish, aren't
• 49:37
  they? I, I, I can't honestly say.
• 49:39
  I think the stop motion scarison might be my favorite.
• 49:44
  I quite like that terrible one in the Silurians.
• 49:47
  Yeah, that's clearly just a massive costume.
• 49:52
  Yeah. I don't know why they ever think
• 49:53
  bigger is better. You know, smaller.
• 49:56
  This is a bit, but this is another of those.
• 49:58
  This is another Pip and Jane thing.
• 50:00
  Like the trees, like the maggots.
• 50:02
  She's got dinosaurs. Oh look, it's for.
• 50:06
  Why? Why has she got?
• 50:08
  Why has she got dinosaurs and. No, she does.
• 50:11
  Excuse me, they do explain this. And Tom and the Ronnie.
• 50:14
  No. Wouldn't they explain the
• 50:15
  maggots and they explain the trees, but I'm not sure that the
• 50:18
  explanation is is like does it justify that model shot?
• 50:27
  No, the model shot justifies the model shot.
• 50:31
  The master and the radi stuck against the wall whilst an
• 50:34
  enormous. Dinosaur while an enormous toy
• 50:36
  dinosaur very slightly moves its head.
• 50:39
  This is what I mean. Sorry to show you the subject.
• 50:41
  Look at Colin, dashing in, absolutely full of himself
• 50:45
  because he saved the day. I love him.
• 50:49
  There you go. I've got the serum.
• 50:51
  I've sent them back to the beginning of the universe.
• 50:54
  Let's go, Perry. What's the betting?
• 50:56
  What's the betting that they, they, they look at that vial of
• 50:59
  stuff and they're like, we don't really know what to do with
• 51:01
  this. Shall we just make the valerian
• 51:02
  tea and they solve the whole thing with with Perry's solution
• 51:05
  instead? Now that would have been more
• 51:08
  satisfying, I think. I love these two characters, but
• 51:13
  they've not been part of the story.
• 51:14
  This scene is gorgeous though. Yeah, yeah.
• 51:16
  Battered but not bowed, he goes. I love that set I guess.
• 51:22
  I think probably younger me wanted to see the rocket in a
• 51:27
  slightly more advanced state. I probably wanted a moving steam
• 51:30
  engine. I wasn't going to get one, was
• 51:32
  I? No, you're still watching Doctor
• 51:34
  Who. Remember that pond?
• 51:39
  She says it, doesn't she? Your problems get worse, Doctor.
• 51:44
  They were like people turning into trees.
• 51:46
  We can do that dinosaurs, we can.
• 51:49
  We can do that steam engine. No, that's, that's, that's one
• 51:52
  one step too far for the BBC. Is that all this?
• 51:55
  Do you like this exchange, Doctor?
• 51:57
  What exactly do you do in there? Argue mostly.
• 52:01
  And then he just shoves her in the doors.
• 52:04
  It's lovely. It's lovely.
• 52:06
  Yeah, you're right there. Relationship is slightly
• 52:09
  different in this, isn't it? Yeah.
• 52:13
  And do you know what? That's exactly the end of Talons
• 52:15
  of Wing Chi Yang, isn't it? It is, yeah.
• 52:17
  You know what? On earth?
• 52:19
  I always thought he was a queer sort of fellow.
• 52:21
  So what a shame that Stevenson and Ravensworth couldn't have
• 52:25
  been part of the climax like Jago and Lightfoot because I
• 52:29
  feel like you've got 2 great actors doing sterling work there
• 52:33
  with well written parts. Yeah, but sort of doing nothing.
• 52:37
  Yeah. I, I, I mean, I do wonder, I I
• 52:41
  should, I should have really investigated this beforehand.
• 52:43
  This is when you just have the actors on the commentary that
• 52:46
  you don't get any of this useful behind the scenes stuff.
• 52:49
  Unfortunately, just great anecdotes like where Colin Baker
• 52:52
  muddied his face up to go into the thing and ended up putting
• 52:56
  dog poo in his face. Yeah.
• 52:59
  But I do wonder if it is because of that location where and a lot
• 53:02
  of this stuff was just sort of shifted around to make it more
• 53:06
  action oriented and less historical, which is a shame.
• 53:12
  It feels, it feels like the, the first episode is set up to
• 53:16
  really exploit a historical location and, and for the first
• 53:22
  time, as I say, for the first time in very, very many years,
• 53:26
  it's not just using the location as a backdrop, but it's using it
• 53:30
  as the essence of the narrative. And in episode 2, they're kind
• 53:34
  of going, well, we've got the master and the running now.
• 53:36
  It's all set up. It's going to be about them.
• 53:38
  And and we lose sight of the you know, it doesn't feel like Part
• 53:43
  2 is about anything. Oh, I wonder, this is pure
• 53:47
  speculation now. Is this Eric say word?
• 53:51
  Because he's far more obsessed with Time Lords than he is with
• 53:54
  history. And in this, you know what?
• 53:57
  You've got these great Time Lord characters.
• 53:59
  Do something with them, you know.
• 54:01
  Or is it there? Or is because actually what is
• 54:04
  the story? Well, though there isn't one
• 54:07
  really. The master lose them there for
• 54:12
  no apparent reason. The rod is already there.
• 54:16
  The story, it feels like it ought to be about the Luddites,
• 54:19
  it ought to be about the the these people are smashing stuff
• 54:23
  and there is a reason. The problem is they work out why
• 54:26
  that is halfway through episode 1 and then she becomes the
• 54:30
  story. So all of this rich world has
• 54:34
  been created in these characters, these other
• 54:35
  characters who are affected by it suddenly becomes about a
• 54:38
  bigger thing that somehow less kind of tangible because it's,
• 54:42
  well, we're going to use the brains of the famous people.
• 54:44
  Well, we haven't seen the famous people.
• 54:45
  You're quite right. The famous people ought to have
• 54:47
  been in it if that was going to be the new focus of the story.
• 54:50
  It could have been a big set piece right at the end of the
• 54:52
  story, you know, and you could have got a lot of suspense from
• 54:55
  them all gathering and you know. How far did the master, the Rani
• 55:01
  actually get in advancing their plan?
• 55:05
  She she, she plants some landmines, you know.
• 55:09
  If she was set in traps for the the geniuses at the meeting
• 55:14
  rather than setting traps for the Doctor and Perry, then the
• 55:17
  Doctor and Perry would have a reason to be to have their big
• 55:20
  heroic end by saving. The guys at the meeting, yes,
• 55:23
  she'd be shooting herself in the foot by turning them all into
• 55:25
  trees. Imagine Brunel as a massive tree
• 55:32
  or even Pippen. Jay wouldn't go that far.
• 55:35
  But, and it is a big BUT, I do still find it really insigning.
• 55:42
  Oh, it's very. It's very funny.
• 55:44
  It's. Pretty, it's about because it's
• 55:46
  about the relationship. It's pretty, it's gorgeously
• 55:48
  filmed. It's about the relationships
• 55:50
  between the the characters. I think it's a pity that that
• 55:54
  the characters beyond the Ronnie, the Doctor, the Master,
• 55:57
  and Perry don't get more to do, because I think it's a really
• 56:02
  wonderful cast of characters, both in terms of the creation of
• 56:05
  those characters in the script and in the casting of them.
• 56:08
  So that's where Episode 2 feels slighter to me.
• 56:11
  It's that we don't get to explore them.
• 56:13
  More what? Yeah.
• 56:14
  What I would love is another 6th Doctor Master Rani story.
• 56:21
  Not in history, so we don't feel like we're missing out on
• 56:24
  something. Yeah, but more like a sort of
• 56:27
  screwball comedy of some kind out in space where they're all
• 56:31
  trying to outdo each other. All screw each other over.
• 56:34
  Absolutely that it would be glorious.
• 56:37
  Of course Pip and Jane would have to write it.
• 56:39
  I wouldn't trust anyone else with the dialogue.
• 56:42
  Yeah, that ship might have sailed.
• 56:45
  Well, yes, indeed. Yes, in cases of the actors and
• 56:50
  the writers, yes. But hey, hey, James.
• 56:54
  Now look, you know how we end these things.
• 56:56
  All right, goodness, I haven't even thought.
• 56:57
  About this, No. Well, you would have to
• 56:58
  improvise then, aren't you? Three fabulous things.
• 57:03
  I mean, it's not going to be hard.
• 57:05
  Let's be honest. It's not going to be hard.
• 57:07
  If you go first, then to me, we'll go back and forth.
• 57:11
  OK, so my first fabulous thing is the setting.
• 57:17
  It is the historical setting and the and the way in which it is
• 57:24
  realized a real rarity for this period of Doctor Who.
• 57:29
  And as I said at the start, it it absolutely shines when you
• 57:35
  reach it chronologically because it's something that hasn't been
• 57:38
  done for such a long time in this way.
• 57:42
  And I've got to sort of do a a sideways step from that and say
• 57:47
  I want my first thing to be Sarah Helling's direction as a
• 57:51
  whole, because this is a rare foray into a woman directing
• 57:57
  Doctor Who. I think it's only Fiona coming
• 58:00
  before this, isn't it? And I can always tell when a
• 58:04
  woman is directing Doctor Who. And Paddy Russell.
• 58:07
  And Paddy Russell, of course. Yeah, something to do with the
• 58:12
  imagery, something to do with the performances.
• 58:15
  I don't know. And I do, I know we said this is
• 58:17
  full of murder and action and things like that.
• 58:21
  Does just have a classy feel to. It.
• 58:25
  Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know, and, and I think
• 58:28
  that's due to her and we didn't mention it at the time.
• 58:29
  And it's a very it's a cliched shot to mention, but that shot
• 58:32
  for the spider's web of Colin coming into the woods is.
• 58:37
  It's gorgeous, isn't it? Beautiful.
• 58:40
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 58:41
  But the the the story is full of shots like that.
• 58:45
  Yeah, it's, it's, it's a very confidently directed story.
• 58:51
  As I said, I think it is better directed on location than in the
• 58:56
  studio. I think that's where her
• 58:59
  strengths really lie. But so much of it is on location
• 59:01
  that that's the overwhelming effect that you get.
• 59:04
  I think you've in 22, you've got three extremely good directors,
• 59:09
  Matthew Robinson, Graham Harper and Sarah Hellings, and those
• 59:13
  stories really stand out in their direction.
• 59:16
  The other stories slightly less so, but they've got, you know,
• 59:20
  other pleasures in them. And Paul Darrow.
• 59:28
  Well, I'm going to take Jonathan Gibbs.
• 59:31
  I think he turns in really, really good scores for all of
• 59:40
  the stories of these scores. And this must be this.
• 59:45
  This is his final offering as a composer for Doctor Who, and
• 59:48
  it's his best. And I think it's the fact that
• 59:50
  he it feels free to write, write again.
• 59:54
  I mean, it ties in with my first point because it's Jonathan
• 59:56
  Gibbs writing to the period and recognizing that the historical
• 1:00:00
  setting justifies a slightly more traditional sound that then
• 1:00:04
  he can play with. I think a lot of the scores for
• 1:00:11
  Doctor Who in the 80s are very strong indeed.
• 1:00:12
  I think the Radiophonic Workshop were a a very, very fine team.
• 1:00:19
  However, I do think. That particularly once they kind
• 1:00:23
  of once they get going, they can they can feel much for muchness
• 1:00:30
  And for all of the the stand out scores, the Andrew Zani's and
• 1:00:36
  you know, the state of decays, there are a fair number of
• 1:00:40
  scores where you they could be interchangeable.
• 1:00:43
  And, you know, Roger Lim doesn't always turn out occasions Andrew
• 1:00:48
  Zani and doesn't always right school.
• 1:00:52
  That's so distinctive. And I I guess I would apply the
• 1:00:55
  same to Jonathan Gibbs. Actually, I'm not sure how
• 1:00:58
  different his scores are up to this point.
• 1:01:01
  It feels very much though he's been inspired by the atmosphere
• 1:01:05
  of the of the of the filming to turn in something that's really
• 1:01:08
  first rate and like the location filming would hold his head up
• 1:01:14
  high in a, you know, a prime time Saturday night drama slot
• 1:01:18
  as as much as it doesn't Doctor Who.
• 1:01:21
  So yeah, Jonathan Gibson score. I'm almost a little sad, you
• 1:01:24
  know, that there's so much action in the middle because he
• 1:01:27
  scores action for action. But when the doctor comes out of
• 1:01:31
  the mine at the end, it eases back into that music from the
• 1:01:35
  start of the story, and you're like, oh, I just could have done
• 1:01:37
  with more of this, you know, just atmosphere.
• 1:01:40
  Atmosphere and it's so beautiful and it yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:44
  And, and, and it's not an era of who where you get a great deal
• 1:01:48
  of melody. And it's lovely that he feels
• 1:01:52
  that well, he's given the opportunity, he's given that
• 1:01:54
  kind of long opening shot. He's given a chance to actually
• 1:01:56
  write something that is melodic as well as atmospheric.
• 1:02:00
  And actually, as we said about the music at the cliffhanger, he
• 1:02:03
  scores the action very dynamically as well.
• 1:02:06
  Yes, yeah, yeah. And, and, and, but also, and it
• 1:02:10
  and it is a bit of a bugbear of mind.
• 1:02:11
  You know, good, good television scoring doesn't necessarily mean
• 1:02:16
  drawing attention to yourself. He knows when less is more as
• 1:02:19
  well, and he knows how little is needed.
• 1:02:21
  So when you were pointing out kind of the the there's some,
• 1:02:25
  some sinister moments where he doesn't do very much at all.
• 1:02:27
  It's just there very, very softly in the background.
• 1:02:29
  It's not overwritten. It's not, it's not getting in
• 1:02:33
  the way. And that's that also kind of
• 1:02:37
  gives us a slightly different feel to a lot of what's
• 1:02:39
  surrounds it, which is very saturated.
• 1:02:42
  It's so weird, you know, because as I've gotten older, I, I
• 1:02:47
  appreciate less is more, far more.
• 1:02:49
  When I was younger, I wanted music to always be bombastic and
• 1:02:52
  loud and driving stuff and dramatic and yeah.
• 1:02:56
  And I could point to the scores that I really liked, and they
• 1:02:59
  were the ones that were the most apparent.
• 1:03:01
  And now it's the Akanola, it's the Jonathan Gibbs.
• 1:03:04
  That's the stuff I love. All the ambience, you know.
• 1:03:07
  It's kind of because it's because it's too easy in some
• 1:03:10
  ways. I mean, I it's, it's also
• 1:03:12
  sometimes justified and Akanola can can absolutely go hell
• 1:03:16
  forever, but I think it's all the more effective because he
• 1:03:19
  does it so rarely. So you really sit up when it
• 1:03:23
  happens. You said something about his
• 1:03:25
  music that really, really struck a chord to me because then I
• 1:03:28
  started listening out for it. And you said, you know, he
• 1:03:31
  starts, I can't remember exactly how you worded it, but you said
• 1:03:34
  basically he starts with very little, which means he can build
• 1:03:37
  to the highest over the greatest amount of time.
• 1:03:40
  And so I started listening to watching more episodes.
• 1:03:43
  I was like, yeah, he's just there.
• 1:03:44
  It's just a tiny bit and it's building and building a bit over
• 1:03:47
  like 5 minutes or so sometimes, you know?
• 1:03:50
  Yeah, fabulous. Well, I am going to, of course,
• 1:03:54
  my hero Colin Baker, who I would always, if the guest doesn't
• 1:03:59
  choose him first, I will choose. And I'm not going to throw out
• 1:04:03
  that old story again of me being 13 and finding a male figure who
• 1:04:08
  I just adored in my life because my father wasn't that.
• 1:04:11
  I kind of just did that. Then I love Colin Baker as the
• 1:04:15
  Doctor, and I love the fact that Pip and Jane Baker love Colin
• 1:04:20
  Baker as the Doctor. And I mean, listen to them with
• 1:04:25
  him in the commentaries. And she says to him, Colin, I
• 1:04:30
  couldn't believe I watched that story with you in it, walking
• 1:04:33
  around that fence for half an hour.
• 1:04:35
  I couldn't believe it. She goes, you should.
• 1:04:37
  You should have been right in there in the heart of the story.
• 1:04:40
  They just love him. At one point, Colin goes, you
• 1:04:43
  know, you've never killed me off in a production yet.
• 1:04:45
  And Jane Baker goes, we never would, Colin.
• 1:04:49
  They just adore him. They like making him the the
• 1:04:51
  hero, important, funny, just the best of the Doctor, frankly.
• 1:04:57
  And I think he does exemplify that here, even if he doesn't
• 1:05:00
  get that big sort of climatic moment at the end of the story.
• 1:05:04
  Throughout, he's improvising, he's intelligent, he's
• 1:05:08
  insulting, he's hilarious. I just love him.
• 1:05:12
  I can't take my eyes off him. So yeah, this Colin Baker is on
• 1:05:15
  the Sick Doctor. OK, well, see you, you took, you
• 1:05:18
  took Colin, who was definitely going to be on my list.
• 1:05:22
  So I'm going to take the other bakers available and I'm going
• 1:05:25
  to have Pip and Jane as my Third Point.
• 1:05:28
  Because as we've discussed, they were a really safe pair of
• 1:05:32
  hands. And that's not to denigrate
• 1:05:35
  their work at all. What they do is absolutely
• 1:05:40
  professional. They're writings.
• 1:05:41
  You know what they what they sometimes make feel as if it's
• 1:05:48
  been kind of knocked out a little too easily is actually
• 1:05:51
  very kind of tricky, right? They were they were real pros.
• 1:05:55
  You can tell that their writing has been labored over.
• 1:05:57
  You can tell their characters have been well developed,
• 1:05:59
  well-rounded. You can tell their dialogue has
• 1:06:02
  been carefully honed, not least through the you know, the the
• 1:06:07
  deliberately use of, you know, the full range of the English
• 1:06:10
  language, which I. Believe you appreciate.
• 1:06:14
  I totally appreciate it. Yeah.
• 1:06:16
  And I, I, I really do think there's a place for it.
• 1:06:19
  And probably the place for it is in a story like this where
• 1:06:21
  you've got 3 characters in particular who are scoring
• 1:06:26
  points off each other and, and it's all about ego.
• 1:06:29
  It's all about them showing off. So why not write these three
• 1:06:33
  characters in the most kind of verbose, you know, ridiculously
• 1:06:40
  articulate way possible? But I think that the the nuts
• 1:06:44
  and bolts are there as well. And I do think that they were
• 1:06:48
  writers for this era of who. I think they are probably the
• 1:06:54
  strongest writers in this season.
• 1:06:56
  I think they were the only writers in John Nathan Turner's
• 1:07:00
  phone book who could possibly have rescued the next season in
• 1:07:03
  the way that they do. I think that's probably when
• 1:07:07
  their relationship with Doctor Who should have ended, but given
• 1:07:11
  that they gave us time in Irani, we can now enjoy it knowing
• 1:07:15
  that, you know, Doctor Who survived it.
• 1:07:19
  I think like, you know, you said this sort of at its peak here.
• 1:07:22
  I think their peak comes when, because obviously they write
• 1:07:25
  melodramatic, overblown dialogue and then John Nathan Turner has
• 1:07:29
  the, you know, the Chut's bar to employ Bonnie Langford to then
• 1:07:34
  say those lines. And that is just a marriage made
• 1:07:37
  in heaven. So suddenly you get lion
• 1:07:39
  readings like, you know, mayday we have to respond.
• 1:07:42
  Or even better, in terror of the verbose.
• 1:07:45
  I love you when she goes. Well, the answer's simple enough
• 1:07:48
  to me. You've got a killer on board.
• 1:07:51
  I mean, it is just TV gold when Bonnie, Pip and Jane all come
• 1:07:55
  together. And actually, that's the
• 1:07:57
  commentary for time in the Ronnie.
• 1:07:58
  Check that out. That's hilarious.
• 1:08:02
  Yeah. I mean, I can't disagree with a
• 1:08:04
  word you're saying. I do think it's a pity that like
• 1:08:07
  if they had lived for another 10 years, they they would have.
• 1:08:11
  They would have It lasted until the era of Big Finish getting
• 1:08:15
  people back in to do so. We'd have had a Pip and Jane
• 1:08:18
  Baker present box set and it would have been.
• 1:08:23
  Glorious People wanted to do the Ronnie right earlier, a Big
• 1:08:27
  finish and Gary Russell said I won't do it without Pip and Jane
• 1:08:30
  Baker. So if they don't want to do it,
• 1:08:32
  we won't do it. So it wasn't until after they
• 1:08:34
  died that we got a new role and it, which is a shame, right,
• 1:08:37
  because Kate Morrow would have been well out for that.
• 1:08:40
  Yeah, and I, but I you sort of feel like they would have been
• 1:08:44
  up for it as well. Do you know what, James?
• 1:08:48
  I think the world, the world needs more Jane Bakers.
• 1:08:51
  I'm going. To say it, it needs some Jane
• 1:08:54
  bakers. I don't think we need too many.
• 1:08:56
  But yeah, I mean, their television appearances are also
• 1:09:00
  always brilliantly entertaining. Can I do that quote one last
• 1:09:04
  time? You probably heard it before on
• 1:09:05
  Hamster about the Vervoids. Have you heard me say this
• 1:09:09
  before? Yeah.
• 1:09:10
  I have, but I'm very glad to hear it again.
• 1:09:12
  I've. Just got to say it where they're
• 1:09:13
  talking about it. And toilet Baker goes, You know,
• 1:09:17
  Chris, were you aware that the the vervois were vaguely sexual?
• 1:09:21
  Jane Paper pipes up. Vaguely sexual.
• 1:09:24
  What are you talking about? And Pitt Baker go, please change
• 1:09:27
  the subject in a hurry. And they do.
• 1:09:30
  So maybe those line readings I did from the book, they were
• 1:09:34
  entirely innocent. She's a writer from a bygone
• 1:09:37
  age, isn't she? She's a right from a bygone age.
• 1:09:40
  I think they probably were entirely innocent.
• 1:09:43
  Yeah, yeah. I, I prefer to sort of leave it
• 1:09:47
  there, you know. All right, Well then for my last
• 1:09:51
  thing, I actually want to say the dynamic duo of Kate O'Mara
• 1:09:55
  and Anthony Angley, because I know this was not a harmonious
• 1:09:59
  professional relationship because Anthony Angley was
• 1:10:03
  severely displeased that he'd been muscled out from sort of
• 1:10:06
  head honcho by Kate O'mara's Ronnie and was a bit sort of
• 1:10:11
  nasty about her on the set. You know, he was a man who
• 1:10:16
  wasn't afraid to show his displeasure.
• 1:10:19
  I think his his relationship with John Nathan Turner was
• 1:10:22
  notoriously bumpy. But I don't know, it's just
• 1:10:26
  magic when they're together, right?
• 1:10:28
  They've got this absurd dialogue to speak.
• 1:10:30
  The two characters can't stand each other, but they can use
• 1:10:34
  each other and they just play it to the hill.
• 1:10:37
  And what Kay O'Mara says in the commentary is I loved playing my
• 1:10:41
  scenes with Anthony Angley. She goes, I thought we made a
• 1:10:44
  terrific double act. So whatever he thought of me, I
• 1:10:47
  don't care. The works there on the screen.
• 1:10:50
  And it worked and I do. I think it is.
• 1:10:51
  It really does. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:52
  Black I could happily have seen more return appearances of the
• 1:10:57
  Ronnie with the Master tagging on.
• 1:10:59
  Yeah, as long as she kicked him in the nuts in every story.
• 1:11:04
  It sounds like a commentary that that that I ought to go and
• 1:11:07
  experience. This one, yeah, it's delightful.
• 1:11:11
  Oh, please. Can you follow it up with Terra
• 1:11:12
  the vervoid So because that's. I'll do a, I'll do a pip and
• 1:11:16
  Jane Baker a thon with the commentaries and you need to
• 1:11:18
  listen to the alternative score. And I'll listen to the
• 1:11:21
  alternative score and the last question that I will ask you, as
• 1:11:25
  I always do, and as nothing has been prepared, we will improvise
• 1:11:28
  this moment. James, where are we going next?
• 1:11:31
  We haven't discussed. It, I know, but I just love.
• 1:11:34
  I love when you go. I just fancy doing this.
• 1:11:36
  Yeah, but the the terror is I know you've got about 100
• 1:11:39
  already recorded and I and I say something with great.
• 1:11:42
  Kids about those people, I want to talk to you.
• 1:11:45
  Would you tape over it? Would you?
• 1:11:46
  Would you put the cassette into the player?
• 1:11:49
  And OK, has this one been taken? Go on.
• 1:11:55
  Can we back up? I mean, it was done a long time
• 1:12:03
  ago and it's always a different commentary with a new person on.
• 1:12:08
  Of course we can do the. Invasion.
• 1:12:10
  Would you instruct Joe Ford to do the invasion?
• 1:12:14
  You might even give him a little encouragement.
• 1:12:18
  You're an incompetent fall back up.
• 1:12:23
  I want that doctor found. Find him.
• 1:12:26
  Oh I fucking love the invasion so much.
• 1:12:29
  Now that's a mammoth. That's 8.
• 1:12:31
  Mammoth we might we might have to do it in a couple of
• 1:12:33
  evenings, but I'm I'm so up for the invasion.
• 1:12:36
  That's one. I must be joking, if you think
• 1:12:38
  we're doing 8 episodes in one night, we'll be dead by the end
• 1:12:41
  of the evening, especially with the energy we put in I.
• 1:12:44
  Was going to say with all this with all the the the digressions
• 1:12:47
  that I seem to be introducing now.
• 1:12:49
  I know we somehow managed to have run to nearly three hours
• 1:12:52
  and it's only an hour and a half.
• 1:12:53
  Longwell done us. You get your value for money
• 1:12:56
  here on a hamster with a blunt pen knife.
• 1:12:58
  The thing was there was a crew available with this location and
• 1:13:01
  I said no, I'll, I'll have that for hamster and and I just felt
• 1:13:05
  we need to pad it out for another hour and a quarter.
• 1:13:07
  Is that why we sort of deviated? Towards that's right, That's
• 1:13:09
  that's that's where the narrative hasn't been quite
• 1:13:12
  consistent. Do you remember where we started
• 1:13:13
  with so much promise, you know, direction?
• 1:13:16
  Episode 1 was very tight and focused.
• 1:13:19
  Yes, it was. But episode 2 looked beautiful
• 1:13:22
  and had very funny dialogues. So do.
• 1:13:24
  You know what I'm actually going to say, though?
• 1:13:26
  I think, astonishingly, we're going to head them to a story.
• 1:13:30
  There's even like even more how I'm going to start this sentence
• 1:13:36
  again that is even better directed than this.
• 1:13:41
  I think The Invasion is one of the best directed Doctor Who
• 1:13:43
  stories. I've I'm I'm inclined to agree.
• 1:13:47
  Well, I will play Packer to your Vaughan and I'll see you on the
• 1:13:54
  railroad. I can't wait.