Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / The Silent Mind Game You’ll Never Win: How to Stop Comparing Yourself to Others | Happiness | E534

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The Silent Mind Game You’ll Never Win: How to Stop Comparing Yourself to Others | Happiness | E534 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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  Speaker 2: Quick.
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  Speaker 1: Now let's get into it.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: If I ruled the world, the world would be a
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: better place versus a lot of ruling the world scares
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: the hell out of me.
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  Speaker 1: So let me just open up this conversation with a
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: confession that I still struggle with this experience of self comparison.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: I am a psychologist, I've been working on myself for
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: a long time. Intellectually I should know better, and still
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: there are business owners or people doing things that I admire,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: be as cool or as interesting or as successful as
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: that other person over there? And I wanted to mention
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: this just to open the door to the fact that
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: I think we can all.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Relate when it gets into the realm of self esteem.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: What happens is we're costly going around looking around the
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: primate troop and wondering where do I fit? And of
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: course we're not just thinking who's strongest physically, but we
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: all get hooked on different dimensions. For one, it's you know,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: who's smarter. For another, it's who's kinder, who's more physically attractive?
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  Speaker 2: Oh my, that one gets us all who's in better
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: you know, physical shame.
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  Speaker 1: Actually this is a sign and there's not anything wrong
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  Speaker 1: with us per se. It means that we're human, but
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  Speaker 1: also that the way we go about fixing this often
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: makes it worse, and there's a better way.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: For most of us. We oscillate to some degree between
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: feeling not necessarily you know, super depressed, but somewhat down
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: in the dumps and discourage, or we're doing well, so
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: to speak, but we're stressed out trying to stay on
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: top of the game, and neither state it is particularly fun.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: So I'm so pleased to introduce my very special guest,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: doctor Ron Siegel. He's an assistant professor of psychology at
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: the Harvard Medical School, where he's been teaching for over
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: three decades, and he spent his entire career bridging clinical
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: psychology with something very special mindfulness practice. He is the
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: author of The Extraordinary Gift of Being Ordinary, which ever
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: since I heard about it, I just cannot stop thinking about.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: And I'm so happy to share his wisdom and perspective
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  Speaker 1: with you. Doctor Ron, such a treat.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for inviting me.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, this is such an important conversation
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  Speaker 1: to have because you were mentioning that in this particular
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: day and age, now more than ever, people are so
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: visible to each other and there's so much comparison, and
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: how do I stack up against others? And has that
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  Speaker 1: always been this?
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  Speaker 2: Waird?
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  Speaker 1: Do you feel like this is accelerating?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, there's actually some evidence about this. There's something
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: called the Narcissistic Personality inventory, which is a social psychology
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  Speaker 2: instrument that's been used for many, many years, mostly studying
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: cohorts of first year college students, which is standard fair? Yeah, exactly.
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  Speaker 2: And it's a series of forced choice questions where you
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: have to say which one is, which one is more
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: true for you? And they're pretty obvious which ones are
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: more about specialness. My favorite one is if I ruled,
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: you have to choose between these two. If I ruled
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: the world, the world would be a better place versus
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: the thought of ruling the world scares the hell out
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: of me. You can see how this score, and they're
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: all like this, right, they're all comparisons, And they've been
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: tracking college students' responses to this for decades. And guess what,
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: the graph went upatically. It scores on this really really
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: went up a lot throughout the two thousands, basically since
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: social media became a huge part of our lives.
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  Speaker 1: What do you make of that?
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know, this this whole issue of social comparison.
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  Speaker 2: The way I understand it, it goes back to our
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: evolutionary roots. If we were to travel on the African
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: savannah with a naturalist on a so called safari, the
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: naturalists would point out the same pattern and species after
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: species of social mammal. There were the dominant male surrounded
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: literally by a harem of reproductively promising females, and then
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: over in the next field there'd be a group of
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: younger guys doing the species specific equivalent of playing basketball
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: at foot ball, trying to get up the skills to
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: be dominant. And this exists in a lot of other
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: not just mammals. There's species of crickets that if you
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: put them in a box inside of a few minutes,
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  Speaker 2: they'll organize themselves into a dominance hierarchy. Chickens, birds, we
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: talk about pecking orders. We use it as a metaphor
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: in English. You know, pecking orders you know, occur in
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: birds and in human children. By the age of four,
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: if you put kids in small groups, they will organize
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: themselves into what are called transitive dominance hierarchies. So if
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Julia is in some ways stronger than Johnny, and Johnny
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  Speaker 2: is in some way stronger than Susie, Susie knows to
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: defer to Julia. That's by age four, kids organized that way.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, you look across human societies and there's
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: so many hierarchies. Right. We're always arranging our ranks in
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: our particular primate troop. And for most of us, while
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: this doesn't mean, you know, beating our chests and hitting
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  Speaker 2: each other over the head with clubs to prove our dominance.
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  Speaker 2: It shows up as fluctuating self esteem. It shows up
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  Speaker 2: in exactly what you began the lot it's wrong with me,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: which is like, what's wrong and these other people are
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  Speaker 2: better than me? Because when well, two things first, why
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  Speaker 2: do so many species do this? Well, it turns out
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  Speaker 2: that if you're dominant, and it's a little bit complicated
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  Speaker 2: in species where the females tend to have a dominant role,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: but it works out the same in the sense that
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  Speaker 2: if you're dominant, the chances of you successfully reproducing and
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: you protecting your partner and your kids so that your
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: kids can grow up and can reproduce. Basically so the
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: genes pass on through the generations. If you're dominant, there's
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: a greater chance of that happening. So we might imagine
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  Speaker 2: that there were you know, happy hominids back in the day,
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  Speaker 2: random mutations that didn't care about this stuff, but they
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: didn't make it. They didn't get to reproduce them much,
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  Speaker 2: so we don't have their genes. We have the genes
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  Speaker 2: of the one who were like really into dominance and
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: try and do this. So when when when it When
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: it gets into the realm of self esteem. What happens
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: is we're constantly going around looking around the primate troop
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: and wondering where do I fit? And of course we're
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: not just thinking who's who's strongest physically, but we all
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: get hooked on different dimensions. For one, it's you know,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: who's smarter. For another, it's who's kinder, who's more physically attractive?
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  Speaker 2: Oh my, that one gets us all. Who's in better
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: you know, physical shape, who's more lovable, who's more popular?
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  Speaker 1: It'sless it could.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Be who's kinder and who's more generous? You know, we
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: do it. I've been in the meditation world for many,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: many years. There it's it's flat out hilarious. You know,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: who's less concerned with social comparison, who's less egotist.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Who's the bigger social justice warrior? Like paula competitive sport.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: You once had a conference at Harvard viller oneonderful privilege.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: The Dalai Lama was with us, right yeah, wait.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait hold on,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: you hung out with a Dalai Lama.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: It will not hang out personally, but I was the
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: co director of this conference. In it, he figured centrally.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: And one of the nice things about organizing a conference
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: where you've got the Dalai Lama participating is you can
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: call up any psychologist, psychiat mental health professional you know
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: in the country of practically the world, and they'll say,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, I'll come. Right. So you get all these
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: people coming, and these are folks who normally, some of
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: them can be a little self important, right, folks who
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: are very well known in our field. Has happens with
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: folks who are well known in any field around the
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Dalai Lama, everybody's competing for seeming the least narcissistic, right.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Everybody's showing that they're deferential and that you know, they
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: don't need this pot line and so you know, so
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: we'll we'll find something to uh, to compete about. And
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: the fascinating thing is, whenever our self esteem goes up
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: or down, it's really based on these comparisons. You know.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Let's say I like to think of myself as intelligent.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: That was one of the things I held on to
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: to compensate for not being good at sports as a kid. Right,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: So I was going to be the smart one. Right,
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  Speaker 2: So if I'm thinking myself as intelligent, I'm implicitly thinking
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  Speaker 2: that some of the other kids in school are less intelligent.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Or if I'm thinking of myself as being lousy as sports,
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  Speaker 2: I'm implicitly explicitly too thinking the other kids are much
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: better athletes than I am. So it's always comparative, even
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: if we're just comparing ourselves to some inner image of
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: who we should be.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Wow, this is fascinating. But you know what you're saying though,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I think is so interesting and important because my level
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: of self esteem or self worth is yet another point
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: of comparison. I mean, people feel bad about having low
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: self esteem, right, and that's a whole spiral down to
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: the bottom. But you're saying that this is actually how
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: human beings are wired. We are this way by design,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: and everyone on some level has that that comparison, that hierarchy,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: you know, less than better then, and that's just part
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: of the human experience totally.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: The it's a really toxic mythology. Yeah, we have in
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: our culture that says only losers are concerned with self esteem.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: If you were really successful, you would just be NonStop
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: winning and you know, experiencing yourself as on top of
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: the heat you must be a real loser that, you know. Yeah,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: you have good days and bad days, and you know,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: for most of us, we oscillate to some degree between
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: feeling not necessarily you know, super depressed, but somewhat down
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: in the dumps and discourage feeling like we're not cutting it,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: we're not doing as well as others, we're not living
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: up to our expectations of how we should be or
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: where doing well, so to speak in the competitenty. But
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: we're stressed out trying to stay on top of the game,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: and neither state is particularly fun.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can see too. And I don't know
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: if you've come across this in your work, but there's
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: a sense that that like heat hedonic treadmill, I think
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Martin Sellip and called you know, and it's like, I
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: think the myth is that when we attain a certain status,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: or a career gets to a certain point, or if
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: we live in this kind of house or look a
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: certain way, or have this amount of money, whatever it is,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: then we will finally feel like we're good enough. And
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: that I would imagine that isn't the case, because there's
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: always someone somewhere that is better than you.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's actually two reasons, at least two reasons why
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: success fails us. One reason is that it's really what
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: you're suggesting. We could call it narcissistic or self esteem
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: recap libration, right, that what used to float our boat
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: is no longer floating our boat. I can remember as
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: a child, not a vivid memory, but a sense of
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: it of putting these multicolored discs they were made out
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: of wood in my day, on a wooden pole, and
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: the idea was to get them in the right order
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: so that they formed a cone or a kind of
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: schematic of a Christmas tree, right, And I kind of
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: remember the sense of, hey, I did it right now
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: nowadays I could do that today, but it wouldn't quite
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: work for me, you know, self esteem wise. And this
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: is the same for you know, every accomplishment, learning to walk,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: learning to ride a bike, remember how cool that felt?
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Or you know, maybe walking to the store alone. And
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: then as we get older, getting a driver's license, maybe
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: getting a car, maybe renting an apartment, maybe buying a house,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: or having kids or you know, there's so many of
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: these accomplishments. I often trained psychotherapists. In fact, we met
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: at a at a large conference with that objective of
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: and so uh and and I actually asked this question
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: in that conference at a room of quite a few psychotherapists,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: and I asked them to remember what it was like
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: the day they got their terminal degree, right, because getting
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: your degree is you know, either master's or a doctorate
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: or an MD. It takes you know, takes a lot
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: of effort, and usually we feel pretty good in the
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: day when we finally character and I asked, okay, so
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: how many of you woke up this morning feeling good
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: about yourself because you have your degree? And as always
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: happens laughing, you know, except sometimes there's like one minted
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: therapist raising their heads like everybody laughing. Well, it's because
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: it's the head on you said to habituate to whatever
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: whatever used to do it for us. And then we
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: need more. And we only have to glance at the
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: news and see billionaires competing for whose private rocket went
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: higher into space to realize that I don't think there's
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: a ceiling on this. This keeps going, Oh my gosh.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: And as though that weren't bad enough, the other big
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: problem is what goes up goes down. Right, So let's
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: say we're really good at something. We're an Olympic old metalist,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: we actually win the gold. What are the chances of
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: doing into four years, eight years, twelve years, and you
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: know there will be a time you know, I'm an
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: old guy now when you know I'm in some kind
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: of nursing facility if I live that long, and I'm
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: gonna be proud again about being able to put the disc.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: I know, this is what I was thinking. You're gonna
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: feel so excited.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Maybe I'm a winner, but you know, this game, this
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: game is Yeah.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: The game itself is not winnable. It's not winnable. And
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: you think, even if you do have that like pinnacle moment,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: you're like, hey, look at me, that there's there's always
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: a downward slope like a cycle of life. Okay, I
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: am so happy to hear you talking about all of this,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: and doctor Ron, we need to take a quick break.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: But on the other side of this, I would love
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: for you to share some of your thoughts and what
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: your work is uncovered about how we begin to take
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: just this truth of our experience and start having a
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: different type of relationship with it that I mean, maybe
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: even begins to set us free. From some of us. Yeah,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know, is that possible? Is that too much?
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Now? There really are antidotes, and it's not going to
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: go away completely, but we can certainly lighten it up
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: quite a bit.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: All right, that's what we're doing on the other side
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: of this break, we're lightening up. If your definition of
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: success includes running your own business, here are the biggest
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: obstacles nobody's going to tell you about. Anxiety and loneliness.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Anxiety spirals came when you don't know what to do,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and loneliness happens when you have to figure everything out
• 20:11
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  Speaker 1: Prolonlife dot com slash LHS. Okay, so, doctor Ron, before
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: the break, you were talking about the human condition, which
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: is to compare ourselves to each other, and you know
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: how that does a number on our self esteem. It's
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: not a game you can win, and I would love
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: to shift this into talking about how we can begin
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: to lighten up to feel more free. And I'm wondering if,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: as an example, if you would be willing to share
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: a personal story of how maybe you had this experience
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: and perhaps even started applying some different ways of thinking
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: to your own life. Would that be a nice way
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: to enter to this?
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Okay? Well, first, how I got interested in the project
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: looking for solutions? So I really started working on this
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: in earnest around ten years ago, when I was already
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: in my sixties and I'd spent decades as a psychologist.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I had been in my own therapy. I'd certainly thought
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: of myself as an introspective person interested in psychological and
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: spiritual growth. I've been quite involved in meditation practices, particularly
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Buddhist meditation practices, that have as their object recognizing our
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: interconnectedness and not being so preoccupied with ourselves, and certainly
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: not being preoccupied with social rank. And despite all of that,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I was still going up and down with every email.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: You know, I'd read an email that would, oh, I know,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: invite me to speak somewhere, and you know, I'd feel
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: good about myself. I'd read another one in which I'm
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: seeing my friends and colleagues are involved and I wasn't invited,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: and I I wouldn't feel great. I'd have a session
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: with somebody where they really were engaged and I could
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: feel them and see them growing, and I'd have this
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: feeling of all these years of working on myself, training clinically,
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: having experience. This is really cool. You know, I've become
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: this sort of well oiled machine who's you know, it's
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: able to really be helpful in the world. This is
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: a wonderful feeling. Then the next hour, you know, somebody
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: comes in and they're struggling with a presenting problem remarkably
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: reminiscent of the presenting problem they had fifteen years ago
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: when I first started seeing them. But you know, this
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: is clearly not my calling. I should have gone into
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: another field. Other people are so much better at this,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: and what's up with this?
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Can I just point out, like, you're so accomplished, You're
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: at Harvard Medical School, I mean, my gosh, and that
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: you're still doing that with conferences and clients and like
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: comparing yourself to like, but the results that you're getting
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: and that that even did a number on your own feelings, Yeah,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: well that's validating.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: This busyse Things don't work. If it doesn't work for
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: a billionaire to send a rocket into space, it doesn't
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: work for a psychologist to write a bunch of books
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: and beyond the faculty of a well known you know institution,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: what's this point? These things? Well, well, but the point is,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: luckily that there are some ways out of this and
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: and and they have to do primarily with noticing that
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: we have other instincts too. So we talked about how
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: the brain evolved to be concerned with dominance and hierarchies
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: and the like, but the brain also evolved for cooperation. Right,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: there's a We are a social species, and one of
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: the features of social species is they help each other out. So,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: you know, there's a things like a justice impulse in
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: us that you know, if I bring home a wilderbeast hunting,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: you know, one one week and and there's more than
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I can eat or my immediate family can eat, I
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: will share it with you. And the expectation is you'll
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: do the same. And this is part of the basis
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: of all sorts of cooperation. And we have a powerful,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: powerful instinct to nurture close family members, to nurture our kids,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: to nurture our partner, to take care of folks who
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: are close in to us. And this is all the
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: way the evolutionary biologists explain, this is anything that's going
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: to help pass your genes on, you're gonna be motivated
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: to do so. You're motivated for dominance, but you're also
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: motivated to take care of your kids because that's going
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: to pass on your genes. You're also motivated to take
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: care of your partner because your partner's gonna help take
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: care of the kids. You're motivated to take care of
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: your brothers and sisters because they share a bunch of
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: your genes. So these these instincts are there too, and
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: it turns out that there are a number of steps
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: we can take, and we can go through a bunch
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: of different realms that work well.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I'm really curious. So you were talking a couple of
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: minutes ago and you realized that even in your amazing life,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: you are vulnerable to some of these comparisons and that
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: your self worth would rise and fall based on it.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: What were the ideas that worked the best for you?
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, you were just talking about that that cooperative
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: instinct is that one of the ones that.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: You that is certainly one. This starts, I think for
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: most people by seeing how unwinnable the game is. And
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: that's where mind from this practice comes in. You know,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: you mentioned that early on, and you know mind from
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: this practices is it's not about necessarily sitting in meditation
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: following your breath, although that is one of the ways
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: to develop mind from this, but it's really about noticing
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: what's happening in the mind and the body each moment
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: and as much as possible, instead of judging it and
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: trying to change it, trying to push something away or
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: hold on to something, to just really try to be
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: open to observing it all. And if we take that
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: attitude toward the self, towards the self esteem roller coaster,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: we really realize this is a crazy ride. You know,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: like I mentioned, I'm going up and down. I started
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: just trying to track each moment in the day where
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I either felt you know a little bit of the
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: boost or a little bit of the collapse, right, and
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: you know, they were constant, and some of the principles
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: became clear that you know, it really is impossible to
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: win at this because I'd feel really good about something
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: and then I'd recalibrate. That would become the new normal,
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: and you know, it was a big deal. You know,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: the first time I was the author of a book
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: and it got published, well, that's happened a number of
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: times now in my life, and I know it doesn't
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: have that much sticking power. I mean, I'm glad you know,
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: and yes, I feel I particularly enjoy teaching, So I'm
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: glad that you would invite me to share this, And
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: maybe you wouldn't if I hadn't written the book. So
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that that I don't feel good about
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: having done some of these things, but the way in
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: which it, you know, either makes me feel like tall
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: or makes me feel small not as much. Right, You
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: start to notice this kind of recalibration. Yeah, happening all
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: the time, And so the first thing is just catching
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: ourselves in the act, just seeing it. My friend and
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: colleague Terry Real, who's a he's a well known couple.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Oh I've had I've had doctor. No, he's not. I
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: have had Terry on the show before. Absolutely delightful, such
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: a smart guy and has a lot of good perspectives
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: on this, and he suggests as a little exercise this
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: goes along with simply being mindful of it.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Every time you see yourself rising, you see the self
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: esteem going up, I tug on the balloon a little
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: bit and remind yourself nobody's actually better or worse than
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: anyone else. And similarly, every time you find yourself sinking,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: tug up on the balloon a little bit and remind
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: yourself nobody's better than anybody else. So this this starts
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: simply with observation, right, It's also really really helpful to
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: see how we marinate in a culture that reinforces this
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: competitive comparative instinct. And social media. Has we mentioned the
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: narcissistic personality inventory, the results getting more and more narcissistic
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: over time. Well, social media is awful this way. Very
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: few people post woke up this morning anxious, had the
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: runs again because I'm so anxious. I'm afraid I'm going
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: to get a bad performance review at work and my
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: partner is going to leave me. No, it's like here,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: I am at a fantastic place, looking beautiful, doing wonderful
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: things with really cool people, and you weren't invited. So
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: this is what we consume all day. We're watching this
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: all day. If we were nation States, it would be
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: as though we were reading our own crime and poverty
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: statistics at the same time as watching other people's travel
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: films and looking at their travel brochures. It's crazy. We
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: see all these curated images of perfection and we experience
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: all of our own craziness and pain.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: So oh, okay, then that I have to ask you
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: a question, and I certainly want to hear more about
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: the ideas that solved this, but curiosity question. So you
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: said that in you know, repeated measures of college kids
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: over the years, we see this trend towards narcissism, so
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: inflated self esteem, right, But it would almost seem like
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: in the context you're describing more and more people would
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: really just be feeling worse about themselves. And I think
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: we have mental health statistics among teenagers, like maybe there's that,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: but like, how do you find the narcissism rise.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Well, well, that's an excellent point. What the curve went
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: up and then it actually did flat. And so when
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: kids got totally inundated with social media, it started going up.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: In the eighties, it started going up with the Reagan
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Revolution in the States and worldwide. The whole interest in
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: kind of don't want to make this into a political polemic,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: because there's arguments for free Marcus, there's arguments for wealth redistribution.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: But when there was more of an emphasis in the
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: culture on individual achievement, this really started going up. When
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: there was less of an emphasis on you know, I
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: mean there was a time where oh, yeah, we're so
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: proud my son's becoming a priest, as opposed to you know,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: my son's in private equity. You know, there has been
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: a shift in the culture. Well that you know that way.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: There's also there's a debate between social psychologists and clinical
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: psychologists about what's going on in narcissism. Okay, clinical psychologists
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: tend to think it's compensatory. People are feeling inadequate. They've
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: they've been suffering the slings and arrows of self esteem collapse,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: and because that's so painful, their mind flips them into
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: this kind of delusional trick of thinking better than others.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of examples of that, right, you
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: could look in the political arena, and you know, you
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: could see a lot of examples of this sort of thing.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: And we all know people like this. The social psychologists say,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: not so fast. Some people are just deluded. Some people
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: just really think they're better than everyone else. And you
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: could imagine the story. You know, the person is born
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: into royalty to mind broadly, and they start to believe
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: because everybody treats them like they are so special and
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: they're so wonderful no matter what they do, they start
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: to believe it. Right, So there are different they're probably
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: different kinds of narcissies. But one can also imagine that
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: what's going on in the inventory is people have more
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: and more of a need to compensate because there's more
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: and more cultural messaging that winning is the most important thing.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: So I have to present myself as a winner, even
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: if underneath I'm in a lot of pain, got it,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: a lot of pain around this, And I think the
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: pain around this is showing up in the that you know,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: the terrible statistics around adolescent anxiety and depression.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that makes a lot of sense. And I think,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I yeah, that there are sort of different iterations of narcissism,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: And one is the grandiose, true believer who really heart
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: and soul believes they are better than you and everybody
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: else and like that is the truth for them. But
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: then there's another part where it's this wounded narcissist. I think,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: like baby narcissists, and on the inside they are struggling
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: with low self esteem, but it's almost not even part
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: of their consciousness, and there's like all these protective things
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: going on there. Okay, that makes sense.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Being a clinician, I think most of us are in
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: that second category, you know that, and that social psychologists
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: just aren't measuring carefully enough because they're they're having trouble
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: getting at what's deep down underneath.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, but you know with us, right though,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I mean somebody who grows up in a little bubble
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: where their supremacy is reflected back to them in all things,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's yeah, okay, So.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: The first step anyway, is just not right to come
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: back to come back to that thank you. And the
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: second thing is noticing how the culture is doing it right,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: things like the social media business. Things like I was
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: flying on the thonsa the other day and there their
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: their logo actually says non stop you you know, you know,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: we're just exhaust realizing this kind of you know, individualism,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: and it really is true. And you know, they are
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: the surveys of young people and what their aspiration is
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: and the aspiration to be you know, a social media
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: influencer is like very high on the list of most
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: young people. So so the messaging is important to disentangle
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: every commercial we see because I travel a fair amount.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: You know, the primate troop ranking that happens at the
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: airline gate. Right, Okay, First, we're going to invite our
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: first class passengers. Fair enough, they paid eight times what
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: I paid for the ticket. You're still on the plane. First.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: And then folks in the active military, they're risking their lives. Okay,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: I see the argument. Folks with strollers and kids, absolutely,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: you need to get yourself settled. But then we get
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: into the social ranking hierarchy. We get into the the
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: you know, executive platinum plus passengers are next to board,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: and then the platinum and then the gold and the silver,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: and god forbid, you should be one of the eight
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: you know politariats that link onto the plane knowing there's
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: not going to be a place for your carry on
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: you know, right.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: You know, I was on a plane not too long ago,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: and I actually I had I was, I believe, boarding
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: group eight, and I felt like, you know, riff raff
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: like and I actually I did have that little twinge
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: of shame, and I didn't even notice it. But now
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: after talking with you, doctor Ron, I will because you're saying,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: part of how we can combat this is just to
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: notice all of these forces and you be like, oh,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: that's interesting.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Now if you happen to have a privilege on an
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: airline and they let you on for notice that because
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: I've been looking at this stuff and mostly I like coach,
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: but I got to I was doing things in Asia
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: and they generously sent me their business class, and I
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: felt like itself. I thought, how ridiculous is this? But
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: there it is. There is okay, So seeing it in
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: the culture, seeing all these influences, seeing the toxicity of
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: you asked a little bit about personal background. I had
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: the really good fortune of having a dad who's taught economics. Well,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: how's that a good fortune psychologically? Well, I remember being
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: a kid on the driveway in suburban Long Island and
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: a Cadillac drove by, And in those days, a Cadillac
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: was a luxury card, so equivalent I don't know, to
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: a Porsche or something like that nowadays, right, And he
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: said to me, that's a at allac. That's what's called
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: the status symbol. And he said, in eighteen ninety nine,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: not too many dads talk to their kids this way.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Thurston Veblin wrote a groundbreaking book he was an early economist,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: called The Theory of the leisure class. And he was
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: the first economist to describe and study how the process
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: of conspicuous consumption, which is how we buy stuff not
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: because we really need it or even really want it,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: but because we want to show other people we can
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: buy it. So just tuning into this stuff, just noticing
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: how many things do we do that are in essence
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: class signal it, right, you know, just trying to show,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm okay in this way, and some of
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: it can be you know, compensatory to injustice and marginalization.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: There I forget his name, but there's a sociologist who
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: wrote a wonderful book called Whistling Vivaldi, and he's an
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: African American guy taught at the University of Chicago Hope.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: And in case viewers aren't familiar with the University of Chicago,
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: it's in a neighborhood that has a lot of crome
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: and and that has a lot of people of color
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: in it as well. And he discovered that if he
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: walked around his neighborhood, Whistling Vivaldi basically class signaling that
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: I'm an educated person and I'm actually a college professor,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: not somebody from the from the hood. You should be
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: afraid of people treated him entirely differently, right, better or better?
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: The better it was like he was, he was safe
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: to the white you know, affluent folks there. Yeah, So
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: this happens on millions of levels, right. It happens on
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: people showing their status. It happens on people just hoping
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: not to get attacked, right and you know, you know,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I'm of your class, don't don't hurt me. It happens
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: on a million levels. And as we can see our
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: self esteem going up and down with this stuff, it
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: becomes very, very useful. So that's that's step one.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: This is fascinating. So to reiterate, just visibility, seeing it
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: in the world around you, seeing everyone else participating in it,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: seeing what the marketplace is doing to try to, you know,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: pull those levers to get you to buy a more
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: expensive car, but then noticing what it actually does to
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: the way you feel emotionally on the inside. In response
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: to this that that is a very important first step.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: So we do have to take another quick break, but
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: on the other side, we'll continue moving this forward, and
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: I hope you tell us how else we can begin
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: to stop the insanity, stop trying to play the game
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: nobody can ever win anyway and start cultivating this freedom.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: I get so many compliments on the audio production of
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: this podcast, and I found my audio editor on upwork.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: His name is Mark.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: He's amazing. In fact, I've found all kinds of amazing
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: people on upwork. I've used it for years and I
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: cannot recommend it highly enough. Thousands of growing businesses already
• 42:23
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• 42:36
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• 42:40
  Speaker 1: post your job for free. That is upwork dot com
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Upwork dot com. So again, you guys, I am talking
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: to doctor Segel about his perspective and wisdom on how
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: he can get off this terrible treadmill of self comparison
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: and start cultivating the extraordinary gift of being ordinary, which
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: is the name of one of his books. By the way,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I hope you check it out. And doctor Ron, you
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: were talking with us about developing some skills and some
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: strategies and internal practices that can help us start to
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: step out of this craziness and back into more of
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: a personal truth. We began by talking about just visibility,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: noticing what's outside of us, what's inside of us. But
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: I think there's more.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: There is more. There are several other things that are important.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: One of them, which is super important, which we're actually
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: doing right now, is about orienting in life to make
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: a connection, not an impression. So often when we're in
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: interactions with other people, we're wanting to impress them, and
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: we have the fantasy that if they think that I'm
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: cool or smart, or sexy, or accomplished or the list
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: is long. If they they think I'm good in one
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: of these ways, then they'll like me. Then they'll want
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: to be my friend, and maybe then I can find
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: love in the world. And noticing that one element of
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: all of this is just looking to find love in
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: the world is very, very helpful because then we can
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: notice that love is actually a really potent antidote to this.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: When where with a good friend, we're on a podcast
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: with somebody who we don't know very well, but who
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: good friends, but who's resonating to this theme and saying, oh, yeah,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: it happens to me too. It changes. When we start
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: to feel connected to another person who isn't posturing, isn't
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: trying to prove that they're special in some way, but
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: is sharing with us their experience of frankly, the pain
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: of being wired the way we are as social primates
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: that we call humans. This thing starts to shift. In fact,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: our very sense of self even starts to shift, because
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: instead of feeling like me with you out there, you
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: start to feel a little bit like we were in us,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: like we're together. And when the when the bubble of
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: who we are starts to expand a little bit and
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: can include another person, all the stuff tends to fall
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: away when we're talking. When we're talking with a good
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: friend and we're telling them about our joys and our sorrows,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: we're not thinking so much about how I compare to
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: others and whether they're evaluating me were we're enjoying and
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: being nurtured by of connection and even in you know,
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: in this arrangement or in a group, you know, when
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: people are talking about this. I'll tell you every time
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: I go through one exercise which is in the book,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: which is doing a kind of inventory of noticing what
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: we each get hooked on right, a long list of
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: different things we can get hooked on, and I'll ask
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: the group, well, how many of you notice that at
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: least one of these things you get hooked on? And
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: almost all the hands go up? Who noticed more than one?
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Most of the hands go up? Who noticed? Like practically
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: all of them? And a lot of the hands go up.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: And you know, that's therapy for the next several days, right,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: just being with other people who are being honest about
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: this stuff instead of hiding with the shame that make
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: you know that only losers struggle with this, So anytime
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: we can make a connection, and it even actually works
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: for external material goals, like you know, we may go
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: in for a job interview and think, oh, I got
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: to show them that I'm smart, I got to show
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: them that I'm accomplished. I've got to show them a
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: knowledgeable I got to show them I'm a team player.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: And of course, yes, you will, you know, share some
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: of those anecdotes. But if you go in with an
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: overarching principle of let me make a connection, not an impression,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: and you actually ask the interviewer about them, you get
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: curious about the organization that you're thinking of being hoping
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: for a job with you say, well, what's it like
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: working here? What's it? What are the other people? People
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: start to feel connected because they can have to share
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: their experience with you, and what they will remember isn't
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: so much your resume. They'll remember this. Or you see
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: the in laws and you're thinking, how do I show
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: them the potential in laws? And you're thinking, how do
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: I show them that you know, I would be you know,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: a good mate for their beloved right, and like you
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: could try to impress them, but if you try to
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: connect with them and get interested in them and what
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: their experience is like, it's going to go better. It
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: gets us off the roller coaster, and it actually allows
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: us to have what we want in this social world,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: because we want to be connected and loved as you are,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: instead of presenting some posturing in some way and then thinking, well,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: if they really knew who I was, they'd never like me,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: which is a terrible way to live, but many of
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: us live that way. So so make a connection, not
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: an impression, is pretty reliable as a go to approach.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Oh that's so good and this is okay, so interesting
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: on so many levels. But so to recap, you're saying
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: you know, first like to recognize the commonality of this
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: experience and to be talking about that even openly with
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: some friends, and like, you know, the recognition that a
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: lot of people, gosh, heck, what do we talk everybody
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: basically except for maybe the few narcissistic people that the
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: sociologists believe it maybe maybe not that, but everybody else.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Who are insufferable, but they don't feel that right.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: So everybody else, though, like has this experience so normalizing,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: but then also really seeking to make a human connection
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: where there's caring connection, you know, loving and being loved,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Like that's a big antidote. But you know what's so interesting,
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: as you were talking, and I'd love to run this
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: past you, actually is like to be around someone who
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: is actively trying to be amazing. And I fit around
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: people like that, and I find them kind of annoying
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: and like people that I don't really want to hang
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: out with because every time I do, they're telling me
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: about some sort of thing and not not curious about me,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: you know, like not trying to create a connection. And
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: so you know, I think maybe that the irony, although
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know if research supports this, is like people
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: who are trying really hard to be like competitive and
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: dominant and rise above. Is it possible that people actually
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: like them less because of even if the fantasy is
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: that people will like me more if I'm more beautiful
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: and we were fine and more accomplished.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Well, but it's very interesting we might be attracted to
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: them because we might have the feeling that if I
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: can be in their orbit, then that raises my social rank.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: So you see that, right, Like people want to be
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: near a celebrity, right they want to be part of
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, look at the Jeffrey Epstein Nightmare, where you know,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: so many people wanted to be wanted to enter his
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: world because other fancy people were in this world so sore.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: There is that, yeah, like a brand. But that's not
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: the same as enjoying being with them, really, yeah, because
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: we do sense the posturing, and when we're with somebody
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: who is even more hooked on this stuff than we are,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: at the end of the evening or the afternoon, we
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: feel lousy about ourselves. I mean, you know, that's that's
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: how you wind up feeling when you've been with somebody
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: who is who is investing a lot.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Of energy in being much better than you.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: You whereas when we've had when we've had the same
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: amount of time making genuine connection, we leave with a
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: warm feeling inside. We're usually humbled but alive and balanced,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: and and we we we feel okay about ourselves. The
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: other thing that has been studied is that organizations will
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: often elevate narcissists to leadership roles because they seem decisive,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: they seem confident, They promise the moon, and people think, yes,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: I want this person again. You see this in the
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: political arena, right. The problem is that organizations that are
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: led by narcissists typically fail because what happens is a
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: person who's really hooked on the self esteem step doesn't
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: take counsel from others. They're not really interested in hearing
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: from others. They think they're the smartest person in the room,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: so their idea must be right, and they make unwise bets.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: In other words, if you're in a situation where we'll
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: put in a financial realm where there's a fifty percent
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: chance that this is going to succeed in a fifty
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: percent chance it's going to fail, well, then you want
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: to bet as though you've got fifty to fifty odds, right,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: If however, you are so confident in your thought process
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: and you your intuition being somehow better than others, you
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: might bet the whole farm, the whole Angilada on an
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: idea which really only had a fifty percent chance. And
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: if you do that often enough, you lose all lights
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: go out right. And that happens in these organizations that
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: are led by narcissists. And you know, we see this
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: on the world stage. We see this, you know, I
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: mean Hitler's in Bay, the Soviet Union for example. You know,
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of historical examples of this.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: And so it's interesting. People are attracted as narcissists. They
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: want them as a leader, they want to be on
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: their team because they think that'll raise their rank, but
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: ultimately it turns out quite poorly.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, so interesting, doctor Frown. This has been the most
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: illuminated and also a very enjoyable, I will say conversation.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: And you shared so many helpful things that just a
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: quick quick recap and then I'm going to ask you
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: you one more question. But to recap, you know, this
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: is the way we're wired. You can't escape the instinct
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: to do this, but when you bring it into awareness,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: right when you see the impact on yourself, when you
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: notice what's going on in the world around you. That
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: is the biggest first step. Then also though making sure
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: that you consider this instinct, we also have tour cooperation
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: and connection and understanding that that is a trustworthy, reliable,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: longer term way of meeting the needs that, like the
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: dominant struggle is really trying to get to in the
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: first place, is being loved and accepted. We're also going
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: to pull Terry Reel's playbook like balloon equilibrium. If you
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: feel like a slug, yeah, you're not bringing back up.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: And if you feel like you're on the top of
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: the world, also no, bring it back down is a
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: that's a good one. But then also realizing that while
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: people who are working very hard to impres us may
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: seem admirable and cultivating a brand that might be attractive
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: in the cold light of day, it might not be
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: the horse.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: To be on. Yeah. I will just briefly name one
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: other Yeah, arena that's worth that's working on, and that
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: is I find this very interesting to do as a
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: you know, as a therapist and a meditator that every
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: time we experience a self esteem collapse, Yeah, we can
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: use it to heal a little bit of trauma, because
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: when we have some experience of failure currently, usually if
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: the feeling is intense, it's because it resonates with something
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: that happened earlier in our lives. And if we can
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: recognize that, it can give us a lot of freedom
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: and give us a little opportunity to rework that earlier trauma.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: I'll give you a very brief example. I had mentioned,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: you know, self esteem for our conferences, we met a conference.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: So I was at a conference, not the one we
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: met at, but you know, a similar kind of thing,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: and they have these social events for the speakers, and
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: I was there with a number of people who are
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: very well known in our field, who when I walked in,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: we're talking with one another, and I immediately had a feeling.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: But I didn't know any of them really well personally.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: I knew them a little bit well, and I immediately
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: had a feeling of not being part of the end group, right, like,
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: you know, can I walk up to this little clutch
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: of people and just joined in the conversation. I just
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: felt a little bit of the pain of that, a
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: little bit of the shrinking feeling. Yeah, And I took
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: a moment to just say, wow, what is this? What
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: is this feeling? And I immediately had an image of
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: being a little kid. So I was the younger brother.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: There are two of us, and my older brother, to
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: his credit, let me kind of follow along, you know,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: when he was with his friends sometimes, right, But it
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: was clear that I was not part of that group.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: I was the little brother who was allowed to follow
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: along and sort of participate, but sort of be an outside.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: And when I realized that, oh, it's the pain of
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: that that's activated here. That's why I'm feeling this collapse,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: because I'd feel that collapse sometimes as a little kid.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Just I was saying, all right, I can feel that,
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: I can feel what happened back then, and you know,
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: this isn't then. I don't know what will happen, but
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: maybe it'll be okay and and you know, and I
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: just sort of listened for a little bit and then
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: chimed into a certain point and the group was totally
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: gracious and it was a nice evening. Right. So this
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: is the idea of you know, you kind of have
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: to feel it to heal it. Yeah, that every self
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: esteem collapse we have today usually rhymes with or resonates
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: to one that we had earlier, and if we can
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: use them as things to learn from, won't we won't
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: be so freaked out when they happen. We won't immediately
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: go for a self esteem boost. Let me get back
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: into the addictive cycle of building myself upside suffer with this,
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: but we'll use them as opportunities to grow and develop.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: And that to me is I don't know, quite quite
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: an inspiring part of this work.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: That's wonderful. And you know that's not a connection that
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: I would have made before you said it, But as
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: you were talking, I was like, yeah, I think that
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: you know that the things that perhaps were more sensitive
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: to there's a history there, little hack for our friends
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: you're listening. Sometimes with my therapy or coaching clients, I
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: might ask, is this feeling familiar? When have you felt
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: this way before? Just as like a doorway to kind
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: of go back to, or even when was the first
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: time you remember feeling this way? Can be helpful to
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: begin to kind of connect those dots and to realize
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: that even if you're feeling worried or stressed or like
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: in your moment, doctor, we have all been there. I
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: felt that way so many times too, Like, you know,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: do you walk up to this group of people they
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: know each other, you know they're cool, and you want
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: to hang out with them. But what happens if they
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: don't want? You know that whole thing, that there's that
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: vulnerability there, but using it as a moment to be like, Okay,
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: this is a familiar feeling and I can take care
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: of myself here in the moment. I am grown adult
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: in the present. I'm okay, and give give me the
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: courage just to try and see what happens.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Quite hard to do that if we don't see, yeah,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: what know what's really going on here? It's much easier
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: if we say, oh, this is that childhood feeling. I
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: know that, and that then offers a bit of perspective
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: that allows us to move forward. So I really like
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: the idea of instead of leading life fearing self esteem collapses,
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: which is very easy to do, let me see about
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: using self esteem collapses as little teaching moments for myself.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: So much good stuff, Doctor Ron Siegel. This has been
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: the most fascinating conversation, and I'm so grateful for it
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: because I have so many people reach out, you know,
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: by counseling practice at growing self or even listeners of
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: the show, and it seems like a primary just pain
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: point that I hear about over and over again is
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: related to self worth, feeling good about myself, wanting to
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: love myself, self esteem, want you to have confidence in myself.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: And I think that everything we were talking about today
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: just illuminates this experience in a very different way and
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: also shows powerful and useful and not I don't want
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: to say easy, that is over selling it. They're always
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: hard to do, but free, you know, practices that anybody
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: could start doing today to begin walking this back and
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: and it's on behalf of our listeners here with us.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to you for sharing your wisdom with us.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thanks so much. And if people want to
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: do a deeper dive and see a lot of you know,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: kind of structured exercises along the lines we've been talking
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: about the book, is that that's what the book's.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: About, okay, And the book is the extraordinary gift of
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: being ordinary? And doctor Ron Siegel, where might someone who
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: wants to have more of you in their life connect
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: with you? Do you have a website or other things
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: that people might want to know about.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I go to doctor Ronsiegel dot com spelled the
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: way you'll see in the notes for this show. And
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: the best thing, because I'm sorry to say, I maintained
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: the website myself and I'm not always up to date
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: with it, but join the mailing list because every time
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: there's you know, new Talk free offering courses things like that,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: I send out emails. So if you just joined the
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: mailing list, there and I promise not to sell your
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: name to anybody or spam you or anything.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: Amazing. Okay, doctor ronseagull dot com. All right, thank you.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: That was such a fascinating conversation. Doctor Ron Siegel is
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: a gem. He's so knowledgeable, and I really hope that
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: you've got some valuable takeaways that will help you just
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: cultivate that internal equilibrium, especially if you're in situations where
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: you're maybe feeling down on yourself. I hope he he
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: gave you a lot to help fluff you back up.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: But also to know that even if you are having
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: that external like way look at me moment, you know,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: to be a little bit not skeptical, I would say,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: but reality based about that as well, and to I
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: think unhook all of ourselves from external validation for our
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: intrinsic experience of love and connection, because that's really the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: name of the game. And so doctor Ron shared so
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: many amazing resources. I have a few for you as well.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: You know, one thing I always worry about on this
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: podcast and others like it is that we talk about
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: these skills and the strategies, and it's like, you know,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: five easy steps, just just do these things that it'll
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: all feel differently for you. And that is true. Everything
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: Doctor Ron was talking about today is valid, and if
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: you do practice them consistently, you will have a different
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: experience of yourself in the world. But the timeline, the
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: arc of growth is often much longer than people think
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: it is, and it requires a lot of experiential work.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, even just that first step of getting visibility
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: and self awareness into what are my triggers, when am
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: I more likely to feel this way? What is in
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: my world currently that is conspiring to make me have
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: these experiences? And then what do I notice happening inside
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: of myself when I feel fluffed up or when I
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: feel kind of put down? That in itself is an
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: exercise that can take many months of work, even just
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: to develop that type of ability much less the ability
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: to shift your narrative, start experiencing things a different way,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: or even how do you develop the skills to cultivate
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: connection and develop the type of relational exchanges with people
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: that are much more satisfying, like doctor Ron was talking about,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: That's like a whole other chapter, especially if you have
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: been operating in a culture where perhaps what you've known
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: how to do is try to be more dominant or
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: impress people, or you know, show up in ways that
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: are maybe counteracting to connection that in itself could take
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: months and months of work. That is not to discourage
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: you at all use everything that you heard here, but
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: I also don't want this to turn into a thing
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: where maybe it makes you feel bad about yourself if
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: it doesn't change. Just like that, the arc of growth
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: is long, and it is also sometimes very beneficial to
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: get support along the way, somebody who can walk with
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: you on that journey. If you would like the support
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: of any of the clinicians associated with my group growing Self,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: I have a bunch of different opportunities. You could always
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: work one on one with a clinician in my network
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: by coming to growingself dot com and requesting a free consultation,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: and then in addition to those premium services, I do
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: also have a lot of really affordable and I think
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: amazing opportunities to do some powerful, meaningful personal growth work
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: for a more limited engagement that can help you get traction,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: gain insight, get clarity into your wiring, map out where
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: you need to grow, and start making an action plan
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: to get there. One thing I'm excited about is a
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: new program called Unstuck in eight weeks, which does exactly that.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: It helps you get a snapshot of where you are now,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: where you need to grow, and what will it take
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: to move forward, and a boost start in doing that
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: work eight sessions of coaching with an expert therapist who
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: is doing advanced training and coaching psychology for just forty
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: nine dollars a session. It's a pretty amazing deal and
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: if you'd like to learn more about that, you can
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: come over to grow and seem forward slash grow. All
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: right now you are loaded up with resources and thanks
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: again for tuning in today being a part of this conversation,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: and I'll be back in touch soon with another episode
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: of Love, Happiness and Success.