Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.333: Beauty Matter Exclusive Ft. Kelly Kovack

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E.333: Beauty Matter Exclusive Ft. Kelly Kovack · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is Ekta, and I have a wonderful guest with me today.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I really love editorial interviews, and I couldn't think of a better guest to have on.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the founder of Beauty Matter.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of you know about the publication very well.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: They, you know, have some of the best news out, you know, in the beauty space that's available immediately.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Kelly Kovac.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, Kelly.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's such an honor.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a huge fan of Beauty Matter.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm I'm really excited to learn all about, you know, the beginning stages of the publication.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: But first, I really want to learn about your career and and where it all began for you in terms of like editorial and publications and all that good stuff.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, my career did not start in media.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I spent a couple decades um on the brand side of the beauty industry, um building um and advising brands, starting some brands of my own.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um I kind of fell into the beauty industry.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: I was in fashion, um, a set of circumstances, being really young in New York.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I ended up at Bliss at the very beginning.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was part of the executive, the first executive team of Bliss, um, and was responsible for starting um the catalog, which sounds makes me sound ancient.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but in 1996, selling beauty products through a catalog was actually quite disruptive.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um Beauty wasn't sold through direct mail.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we got told by lots of people it wasn't possible.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that's how I, you know, it was a set of circumstances and uh, you know, one of those decisions that kind of um changes your life.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I found myself in the beauty industry and I loved it.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um I stayed there until the business was sold to LBH in 1999, um, and then went out on my own and um, you know, was really inspired by the entrepreneurial spirit of Bliss and have had a number of incarnations of advisory businesses and design businesses, have started a couple of my own brands, worked in-house at Dr.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Dennis Gross.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was sort of part of the first executive team there.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, only recently found myself um on the, I guess, working in media by a set of circumstances.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's so cool though, that you've seen the beauty industry inside out, and especially with the skincare side.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Dr.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Dennis Girls, by the way, is one of my favorite lines ever to be created.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: It is, uh it is definitely a very special line.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's amazing.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, really revolutionary.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I make sense, you know, with your trajectory.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: You've always been kind of at the uh cutting edge of things, it seems.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, going back to the catalog piece, I think that's phenomenal that you were involved in that.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it when I saw beauty catalogs for the first time.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, just the whole idea was very um, I I loved it, you know, it was very intriguing to me.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's definitely, you know, I feel like uh whenever I speak to true like trailblazer kind of people like yourself, like you guys always are, you know, um it's it's always like these hallmark kind of things.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really interesting uh to hear your story and how it all began.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I want to actually ask you though, with the media uh side, you know, when you transitioned to media, you know, how was that in terms of like making a decision, right?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like we grew up with the magazine world and print and all of this stuff.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: How was that for you um embarking in this on this journey of just creating something um like Beauty Matter?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, was it always a digital thing, or what would you consider, you know, the print space as well?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: How you know, tell us all about that.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, sort of like a lot of um the businesses I've started, um this one this one was different because I have started brands before, but they were they were beauty brands.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I really I know how to put goop in a jar, brand it and sell it.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's what I've done my entire career.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I would say about 15 years ago, how I was approaching branding was very different.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: It was content-led.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I spend the most of my career on the indie side of the beauty industry.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I've never worked for any of the big beauty brands in an advisory capacity, but but sort of never in-house.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I've never had big budgets to work with, I've always had to be scrappy and always found my ideas outside of the beauty industry.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um and at some point people asked me to start writing, um, and I am not.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I had business partners that were fantastic writers, so I guess I was a lazy writer.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so anytime I had to write something, like it would take me two days to write 500 words.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but what I was writing was resonating with people.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I found that interesting.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: I also found it interesting that I was reading and researching resources that were not on the radar of kind of my peers.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and also, you know, started questioning like, why am I not, why don't I use the beauty sort of trade as resources?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and honestly was really inspired by business of fashion.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I have no idea how I came across business of fashion when it first launched.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the first thing I thought was like, why doesn't beauty have something like this?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it really knocked around in my head for about five years before I did anything with it because I don't come from media, I am not sort of a digital native, so it's not like I was gonna go figure it out.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I also couldn't shape the idea.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I had sort of the universe provide sometimes.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I had a friend come to me that worked at an ad agency with two people in tow and said, Hey, you know, could you use our services?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: We, you know, want to go freelance.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I said yes, but with the caveat that they had to help me build beauty matter.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's honestly how it got started.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was an idea and I was willing to sort of test it out.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, with with with beauty brands, I know, I kind of know from a financial standpoint how much it takes to launch them.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: This was something new, I didn't know how much it would cost.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's how we got started.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we launched, it'll be seven years ago in September as a um kind of a curated or aggregated content blog and newsletter, um, and have evolved since then.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and really I had a plan A and a plan B.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: The plan A was I really think there's a business fear and a sizable business, um, but I have no way to quantify it.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Plan B was no one's gonna care and we'll use it for marketing.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that was um honestly, that that was kind of a very long-winded story of sort of how it came to be.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, it makes sense though.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad that you you weighed the possibilities.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that for me, you know, especially now with this podcast, you know, after I've created it, I've really come to understand the value of truly curated media, you know, when it comes to beauty and anything beauty related, you know, um, especially now that we're entering the skincare space as heavily as we are as just a population.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think that there's a lot of, you know, there's a huge value there for publications that are, you know, focusing on the stuff that no one else is talking about.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where, you know, when I'd reached out to your team, I was very, very excited because Beauty Matter to me as a consumer, when I look at it, that's exactly what you guys provide.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you had written a wonderful article, um, which by the way, like I'd hosted all three of the brands that were in your article about the collaborative effort, you know, and working together as brands.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I feel I believe you had, you know, mentioned Allison McNamara in there, and then um Alpine Beauty's founder was in there, and I was reading through that and I was like, you know, this is exactly the kind of like writing and journalism, and I think um just input that this industry really needs is this this kind of open-mindedness, you know.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really want to ask you about that in terms of when it comes to the stories that you, you know, from the very beginning that you wanted to cover, that you wanted to put out there, what were some of the things that you had in mind, you know, as pillars, like uh, you know, I'm gonna focus on this, I'm not gonna focus on this, that kind of thing.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I, you know, I think I think there was a natural um sort of a natural curation just from the fact that you know, at the end of the day, um I am my audience.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my our COO, John Cafferelli, also has a very similar background to mine.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we are our community.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we were really when we when we came up with what content kind of content we wanted, it's both kind of a form and function um approach.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, while what we're covering is important, how we're serving it up is equally as important because we're dealing with really busy executives.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes you don't need to write 2,000 words, you just need bullet points.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um or you don't need a feature, you need a roundup of what's happening.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, sort of how we were delivering um the content was equally as important as what we were covering.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but some of the guardrails we set early on were that we were only going to cover beauty.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of the trade publications of digital and print are kind of fashion first, beauty second.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so we cover beauty and wellness.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we stay in our lane, but what we do do is we cover the entire ecosystem.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we cover brands, retailers, we cover sort of the investment community, um kind of funding the brands and retailers, um, and the suppliers, to be quite honest, and then sort of the supply side, so everything from traditional suppliers like you know, packaging and ingredients um and formulations to agencies and consultants and tech platforms.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we cover the entire ecosystem and we really, you know, we try and serve up content that either inspires, um provides provides data that is just kind of, you know, for small brands, accessing data and research is sort of out of their reach because a lot of this these research reports aren't incredibly expensive.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we we sort of like we comb the the web and find data and compile it.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, we also cover deal flow, and that was something that I had started doing, I don't know, maybe about eight years ago for another business I had.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we, you know, and then the the other the other sort of guilty pleasure of mine was providing a platform to tell founder stories.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, having been a founder myself, you would always pitch your story, and there would be something about your story that you felt would make your made your brand different.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: It was like core to the DNA of the brand, and no one ever wrote about it.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I wanted to be the place to tell those stories kind of in their entirety, if you will.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and our lens for covering for covering founder stories or businesses is really simple.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: There has to be an actual business and an actual brand and an actual story to tell.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um so, you know, and it doesn't matter size, funding, um, you know, if if all of those pieces are there, we're happy to tell the stories.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's kind of the lens we use, and and it evolves as as the brand as you know the industry evolves.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's definitely in the true spirit of journalism.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what you just said.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this idea of storytelling has been so underrated for so long.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, by not focusing on that, a lot of publications, you know, have kind of overlooked the incredible journey that brands go through, you know, from beginning to end.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we were discussing Dr.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Dennis Gross's brand, for example, right?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, but uh when I had him on my show, for me, just as a consumer, it was so cool to hear how he created his brand, you know, and that's been the case for me throughout the entire experience of hosting all the brands I have.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I fully know what you mean when you say that in the sense of like, you know, the real, I think people are always looking for from the brand side, what is it gonna, what is it gonna take to get consumers to understand and to connect with my brand?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's always like, well, that's easy.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's a story, you know?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times people have these, you know, extravagant pitches, right, for their brand or their company, but it's very difficult to pick up on that.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, for a lot of the bigger publications, you know, they get so many pitches.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I for the consumers, we get kind of left out because we don't get to hear those stories.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that you from the beginning have had this focus on what is the core here, you know, like what are you really trying to do?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think is just more valuable for the long run for people who end up, you know, searching a brand that you might have published a year ago, right?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you're still finding that article.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And when you read that article, it tells you more about that brand than um like a byline that, you know, is just including all of the lipsticks of 2018 or something, you know what I mean?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a lot of um, a lot of value there for sure, you know, as a consumer just looking at it.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And also like the I wanted to ask you, you know, this idea of the more intellectual uh consumer now, you know, I think especially with the skincare space, I don't know if you agree, but I I mean, I'm starting to see that people are just way more educated, you know, and they're really looking for this like the real meat of the meat of the story, you know, they want to know what why is this gonna work for me or even with beauty, why is this shade gonna really elevate the way I feel, you know?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And with that being said, how does that really translate for you nowadays, you know, as far as what Beauty Matter um publishes?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I'm sure you guys get millions of pitches, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you really sift through that and find that same ideal, you know, that you started with in this uh stage now of your publication?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it's honestly very easy.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, getting through my inbox every day is not very easy.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I it's it is um that is a challenge.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and to be quite honest, you know, um sometimes what we cover is based on the quality of the pitch, right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because there are so many brands.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing this for 25 plus years.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: I have never seen so many brands and so many product launches in my life.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so it's it's very hard to sort of stay on top of all the new brands that get launched.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: So very often it's a matter of the quality of the pitch.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, are you really pitching me a story, or are you gonna have to make me work real hard?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you have a story that is not any different than anyone else's story?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and also having done this and having built brands and and done packaging, um I suppose I can also sort of spot private label um kind of propositions uh pretty easily.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you know, when we um you know, when we do decide to kind of explore a story with someone, like we don't print everything.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, if we have a conversation with a founder and we just feel like there's not enough, there's not enough there there, or there's not anything new in what they're doing, we just we don't publish it.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's really always been quality over quantity for us, um, even though we do publish a lot of content every week.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, also we have complete freedom.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is self-funded.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we're, you know, we're not beholden to anyone like some of our competitors are.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, there's a lot of freedom that comes with that um to do things the way we do them and how we want to do them.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think that media should kind of have that freedom, anyways.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've always been a believer in that.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think that, you know, when you're covering anything, whether it is beauty or something recreational, you know, or even real news, you should have the ability to say it for what it is, you know, and I think there's a lot of value there no matter what.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And especially like going back to my point about, you know, the professionalism and the intellectual consumer, that's what people want to hear.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the end of the day, I'm not gonna spend my time reading an article.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I I can just see myself, you know, in my day.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've got 15 things to read, you know, from the on the medical side.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna read an article that doesn't catch me, you know.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, like I mentioned your article before.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I loved that, you know, I loved reading that because for me it was so it was unique.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was a new idea.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was something that I don't see in this industry where someone is really openly talking about this collaborative effort, you know.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'll all I see in this industry, like for with that article, what caught me was all because all I see every day is, well, this is my competitor, and I can't, you know, mention them or even, you know, whatever.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: But then here you are, and you're coming from this place of no, let's all work together.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And here's an example where that's happening and it's working beautifully.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's really unique.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, by having this mindset, you're not only doing justice to yourself, I feel like, as a professional in the media industry, but you're also doing so much justice to your listeners and your readers.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, so it's it's very, very important.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I really love that.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, listen, I I mean, when you're when you're a startup, um, collaborating with people um is everything because um, you know, you know, it you're working with limited budgets.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we are we are open to collaborating with anyone as a media company.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I suppose I've always built brands that way.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, unless they're, you know, the the the secret to collaboration is that, you know, who when you enter into one of these relationships, you know, there has to be there has to be a win-win.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so if that exists, then you know, they're great.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, we do a lot of that.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and I do, but I do feel like the beauty industry has become more collaborative, especially as we take we tackle much larger issues like climate change and you know our plastic consumption, like problems that we can only solve if we work together as an industry.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I it is you know, the beauty industry has been incredibly secretive, um, especially on the supply side.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's changing and it's you know, and it's necessary if we're if we're going to tackle these sort of big global problems.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree with you.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, that's that's also uh one of the biggest reasons I love that story so much was because every time I see something that's truly worth talking about, it has to start from somewhere, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like to see a publication do that for me was really, really great because usually it's you know a brand coming out, and then that's their whole idea is that we're a collaborative brand, you know, and all that.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's great, but at the same time, it needs to just be an open conversation whether it's about collaboration or it's about the the ecosystem or it's about you know the the waste that we're putting out there it doesn't matter what the topic is it needs to be ignited by somebody you know and um I I just love that you you have the balls to do that you know I really well we're we're not afraid to poke the tiger that's for sure um and you know one of the you know one of the things that is really important to me is that um we tell both sides of a story um even if it is like we you know there was just that the HBO um documentary series that came out on the beauty industry and you know there's um lots of opinions about it there's lots of opinions about clean beauty there's a very vocal sort of contingent um about sort of regulations and what clean beauty is but there are also a lot of people who have a differing point of view but it is very very difficult to get them to go on record about it because the like one side has a bigger voice than the other right now.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day like science has to prevail um and I think we'll get there.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think listen I think both sides have the best of intentions um I you know I don't think um you know there's no malice in it um but there are certain conversations where there is not there's not an ability or a platform to have polite debate if you will right so clean beauty is particularly um touchy for some reason I think we've we we've found enough people that we can start having a more nuanced conversation about it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: But we've tackled plastic last year and we had a debate of plastic and what what role plastic plays in a sustainable future.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the ground rules were like you know don't be an asshole you know like let's have a conversation here and it was so well received it was a webinar that we did it um we did it a second time we did a part two so I I think those conversations are important.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think consumers we need to do it for the consumers because there's a lot of confusion out there's a lot of misinformation out there um and you know if we're not as an industry willing to have these conversations um then you know we're we're not really we're not really serving our consumers.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree with you and I think that that's part of the homework you know it's like a lot of brands talk about we I've had this discussion a lot on the podcast with you know brand founders and stuff about how we can't keep holding consumers you know liable for doing all of the homework that should be actually provided to them on some levels.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know when it comes to especially something like sustainability especially things like you know the the real nitty gritty details about plastic uh consumption and what it's doing to the environment on a scientific level on a you know ecological level those kind of things have to be published you know that that information has to be put out there and I think that responsibility should fall on the the level of something like you know um like media or you know even with brands maybe if you are a bigger brand and you have the budget it should fall on you as well you know but it's like we can't just keep avoiding things because we're you know too scared to speak up.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I 100% agree with you you know I think that there's there's a lot of space still left to grow in this area specifically because I'm not gonna lie I still see the everyday you know articles that are well these are the five shades of lipstick that are working great and that's great you know that's great that's great to have clickbait but like you know it's like from what at one point you've got to move from clickbait to real man you know I you know I honestly feel like you know how we consume content has totally changed you know like we don't read books anymore we're like bombarded by content and a lot of it is kind of just like is throwaway and it exists to drive traffic or you know there's there's an awful lot of media that is disguised as editorial but it's essentially full of affiliate backlinks yeah and you know I I think that um I yeah I mean I think the I think the the media has uh an obligation um to be forthright about that um but I do feel like you know we're we're entering kind of a different a new stage of innovation and kind of what's possible because you know COVID fast tracked lots of technology and technology adoption um so there are these amazing technology platforms that are allowing suppliers um to to keep their IP intact but also provide visibility through the supply chain all the way down to the ingredient level or kind of where the packaging is coming from and the the you know nitty gritty of the material.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: They can provide that information to brands now so brands can make informed purchasing decisions and then share that information with their consumers.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I think things like technology platforms like that are going to make transparency real transparent.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think third party certification that goes beyond sort of turning over you know very little documentation and writing a check to get a seal to sort of B Corp certification that is really really involved and is also sort of reevaluated I believe it's every three years because a lot of these claims especially around sustainability and transparency and I mean even packaging claims and formulas I mean there's so much new technology happening um that it is there's not sort of it's not a decision it's a path um that constantly evolves and and that is what needs to be computed that's what needs to be communicated to consumers.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely I 100% agree with you and it and the options have to be available you know it's like you know the things that we know and we're talking about here they have to be available to the new brand creators and the founders out there because you know I won't lie there there was a there's a young lady I'm working with right now and she's in the process of creating her brand and she asked me for advice just mentoring here and there and I'm like I don't I know nothing about brand creation but what I what I can tell you is you know what I look for as a consumer.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of the topics that you know just from her that I've learned that are a big kind of question mark are the she just mentioned, you know, and because there's not enough it's not available yet you know to the general people that just go onto Google and they're searching for this and it's just not there.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's still a lot of work that can be done but I agree with you I think we're definitely taking steps in the right direction you know so that's that's a good thing.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's okay yeah.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you know on a lighter note I actually want to ask you you know when you um designed Beauty Matter you know it was I'm sure it was uh whenever I think of a publication I always think of you know what what's the idea that really goes behind it and you talked about that you know about the brand stories but more so when it comes to monetizing a media company I mean I'm sure there were some questions you had as well right so like what were some of the things as an entrepreneur that you had to really kind of sort out for yourself and uh I guess learn about yourself that you know maybe like war stories you can share with us.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well I'm unfortunately not my first time to the rodeo so um you know I've had other startups um I I think with this one also um you know we we launched it the day we launched it you know we sent a newsletter to 5,000 people that I had kind of in my contact list.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that day I also happened to be working on site with Old Navy.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: So really long days not checking my email I come back at night and my inbox had absolutely exploded um with people just saying oh my God I'm so happy you did this and the reaction was not what I had expected.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: There were a lot of people who have a lot more things to do than write an email telling me you know that they're happy that I launched a newsletter.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I I wasn't prepared for that and I really didn't have it I was really just like let's put it out into the world and see what happens but immediately I knew that like that instinct that there was a business here was right.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I was really busy running another business.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: So what I did was for almost three and a half years I did it on the side um and I I really wanted to make sure like are people just being nice to me or do they really mean what they're saying?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: And why are they comparing us to publications that are much older much larger much more established way more money than we are um you know and you know we did a lot of just evolving naturally I we you know for those three and a half years we published 18 pieces of content sometimes you know it started out as aggregation and then slowly became original content but it was 18 pieces a week four emails a week um and I was lucky enough to be able to just kind of fund it um so this business grew organically there was no pressure for it to make money for three and a half years um so it just evolved and I think you know there were a lot of people who would ask me there were everyone was very they're like what is she doing?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was just doing it but then I was like you know I had this whole other business I was running and I knew at some point um the time would be right and to really focus on this um you know I also knew that my other my other startups I'm very good at making things look bigger than they are um and my other startups I have you know I I've never had that big exit right that people talk about even though I built these amazing brands they were sort of self-funded into oblivion so you know you knew that was very very careful that I had something special on my hands I put together a team to kind of augment um kind of what I'm not good at um sort of kind of financial operations so really built the infrastructure and once we had this very tiny team three of us um started building out revenue um streams um you know the the first one was monetizing the MA reports that we do um you know we we capture deal flow in beauty and wellness um sort of the entire ecosystem globally um and we have been I've been doing it for almost eight years um so we started monetizing those um the next step was subscriptions so we were a free publication all of our competitors were subscriptions so we flipped subscription um and then that revenue allowed us to hire more writers um you know then we built out marketing services and advertising so you know we've been very very methodical once I decided that okay I'm gonna step away from everything else I'm doing I still do a little advisory work on the side but um you know we've been really really methodical um about how we've been growing this business and hyper focused on value creating value for anyone in our ecosystem so I don't care if you are a free newsletter subscriber we need to show up and not waste your time even if it's you're reading one article if you're paying for a subscription then we've got to deliver more value to you if you are one of our professional members more value to you and are all of our advertising partners hyper hyper focused on what their needs are what their objectives are and delivering so you know um kind of value creation for us kind of drives drives everything.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and that makes sense I mean that's like the I feel like the makings of any good brand you know whether it's media or not I mean that's very well said and I I think that's really important especially now because I feel like there are more media outlets that are coming out.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I feel I see a podcast every day, you know, and I I see all sorts of blogs and all sorts of things.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really you know I think that's really valuable information for for just our listeners as well because you know a lot of times what happens is that people start a blog or they'll start something that is actually genuinely good, you know, but it's like they don't get it off the ground because it's a very hazy area when it comes to understanding what do you monetize?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: How do you really reach a bigger audience you know what are the next I mean you have to have something to monetize first.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: So you know I think people often I think people often sure you can buy it you can buy a community you can buy traffic that was not an option for us.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know I I think people underestimate how long it takes um to build a following um I mean like a real engaged following you know we don't really we don't have the biggest audience um you know but we have a highly highly highly engaged audience um and you know to us that is more more important like the numbers don't really don't don't really matter I mean they do matter but it's not we're not chasing numbers we'll grow the way we're supposed to grow but it needs to be it needs to be meaningful growth otherwise we lose the stickiness um that kind of makes the business work right now.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well yeah and then what makes people come to you you know it's almost like a I love that you said that the numbers aren't the main thing because we're living in a world right now where everyone's got bot numbers okay like you know it's literally like you know Elon Musk just came out of a you know reneged on a deal with Twitter because of bots you know it's it's it's everywhere in this industry and in many industries where people have false subscribers.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I was literally having a conversation you know the other day and Kelly I wanted to talk to you about this actually but you know might as well bring it up now is I was having a conversation about this whole um user generated content like thing that's going on and it's like a huge thing now on uh Twitter and everyone's like into it and I literally tweeted um uh something and it it kind of got some some feedback and I was like why would a brand pay$2600 to somebody who knows nothing about your brand who knows nothing about marketing your brand but you're just doing that because it's just blind blind marketing right and it's like it made me like really start thinking about where are people actually spending their time because I'll tell you what a lot of these people out there that are influencers those numbers are false you know like they're buying followers they're buying this so I have this fight all the time with PR agencies with individual brand founders you know that want to come onto my podcast they'll they'll ask me about numbers I'm like well here you go but I'll tell you again you know right if you've got five million and you're looking at an influencer that's got five million followers you have to look at how many people are engaging you know and that's something that I think we've definitely lost you know sight of in the social media you know flow of things is this idea of truly valuable content.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, you know your users are loyal you know their readers are loyal.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna come back to your publication over and over and over again.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that has much more value than somebody who just posts something about a brand and who knows who's even reading it right or even seeing it.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: So this I feel like marketing has yet to catch up I I often feel like that with this idea which you which we were discussing here of this you know the value of the people that are following you the value of the readers and the email list that you know you have versus somebody else who's just you know blowing things out of proportion kind of thing.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah listen I mean I marketing marketing a brand today is a far more complicated endeavor than it was a decade ago.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know there have never been more choices but there have like the consumer path to purchase has never been more fragmented.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you know in terms of creators you know listen this whole idea of influence it's not new you know when I was at Ballis you know we were a startup so we had influential people who came in and talked to us and we took care of them not any different than not any different than how influencers um today act so like this idea of influence it's not new um I think social media has turned it into an actual industry um but if you look at how people consume concept content they're consuming it on social media and so who are they consuming it by they're consuming it by their favorite creator.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you know whether or not they know what they talk what they're talking about is something else entirely.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that um you know I think there is also this this kind of fine line because brands are using content that's created by these people and they're using it in lieu of doing photo shoots and doing and spending money on creative.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I think what you're seeing happening is that the this sort of this creator industry is is actually becoming an industry and creators um recognize the value they bring to a brand and they now expect to be compensated.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not sure that it is unwarranted um because you know it's not any different than you know I don't know you taking a photo and then some big brand using an ad campaign you know at the end of the day that's your work.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that you know I kind of think what we're we're seeing is the sort of the creator economy get its legs if you will um and you know but I think what's really happening is we're also seeing different kinds of creators.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you know you see um now you see doctors on TikTok you know you have a you have a podcast so all of a sudden you have experts that are becoming creators in their own right so at the end of the day it's it's up to the consumers really where they want to get their information from and ultimately it's their choice.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean I agree with you.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with you I think that you know that's really for me the interesting part of you know where the consumers get divided into groups you know that's really where I think I get interested in it because again you know there are more um I guess professional minded consumers these days as well you know especially with the you know keeping in mind that my podcast is aro has always been about skincare.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know skincare consumers are very different than lipstick consumers you know or shoes or sneakers.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know they're what I notice is most of the people that tune into us for example or maybe reach out to me, they're looking for answers, you know, and they're they want real answers.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want the fluff anymore.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're tired of the fluff.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: They're tired of the garbage and um you know with that in mind that's really where I got frustrated with this whole thing because I was like well I also remember being a very small I guess you could say influencer just you know Instagrammer and I was posting photos up and I got really into that industry for a while and I was noticing that these girls that are in these like huge by the way for everyone listening these are huge networks of creators that exist you know and they have these follow trains and these like things In place where the things that they're publishing are not necessarily their own photography.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole thing, like it's a whole thing that's happening, you know?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it's almost like they're cheating the system, but like you're not like marketing is still catching up with that in some ways.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then I look at professional publications and I'm like, this is where I think there's a divide.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because with that, at least you have somebody who's like, you know, you're you're keeping track, you know what I mean?
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're you're holding yourself, you know, responsible for creating genuine good content, whether it's through, you know, articles or whatever it is, you have to, you're answering to somebody at the end of the day, which is your readers, you know, with content creation, it's a free-for-all right now.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all honesty.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's girls out there that are like getting$500 deals for one picture, but then they'll message in a group and be like, hey, does anyone have an image of this uh product?
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: Let me post it up really fast, you know, because they're getting money for this.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I get very, very frustrated because I'm like, there's an inauthenticity, you know, like completely just lack the authentic authenticity is completely lacking in that space, you know, from the way I'm looking.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think I I but I think I think authenticity is, you know, there's in there's there's there are inauthentic people, founders, creators everywhere.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I think that I think I think really what the difference is, it's the difference of short-term thinking versus long-term thinking.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: So if if if you're a creator that really wants to make a living at this and build a brand, you can't do that by you know by kind of taking shortcuts.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like there, there are no shortcuts.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: There are no shortcuts to building a brand or a business.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of hard work and it takes time.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I I honestly think it is, yes, it's about authenticity as well, but and it is really, you know, do you have a short-term goal or a long-term goal?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, those are personal choices.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great point.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's really, really well said.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that really actually leads me to the kind of uh rounding out question for you, which is really just advice for young professionals, because there's a lot of people who tune in that I found out that are, you know, aspiring journalists, or they're, you know, they want to learn more about the media side of things.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: So any words of wisdom that you have for, you know, anyone wanting to come into the space as an editor, writer, you know, whatever.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, you know, it is, I have I have definitely not had um a traditional career by any stretch of the imagination.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so you know, some just kind of like kind of, I guess, career agnostic um advice I would give is, you know, to just always be learning and don't stay in a position that that isn't right.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think the one thing that has that made me have all these different kinds of opportunities is either have a short attention span, which that's possible.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, it's this insatiable curiosity of what's next, what can I learn?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think always learning, A, it keeps you relevant in your career, regardless of what you're doing.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think the other thing, especially sort of when it comes to media, listen, I feel like I'm still figuring it out.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I only, I mean, you know, if we're really talking about how long I've been running this business, we really call it three years.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's when we decided to run it.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm still figuring out how to run a media business.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I can't say I I've got it figured out yet, but we're getting there.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um but in terms of people who who want to write, um, you know, our our full-time writer reached out to me on LinkedIn.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: I get a lot of um people who reach out and for mentorship and whatever, and I try and carve out like Friday afternoons for those calls.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: And she asked me that question, and I was like, I have no idea.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a journalist, but what I can tell you is that if you write enough and you put out good quality, people will pay attention.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I asked her, What are you doing?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to come write for us?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: And two years later, like, you know, she is she is kind of the cornerstone of our um of our editorial team.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: But if you want to be a writer, you have to write.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, what I've learned is that writing is a skill like anything else.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: The more you do it, the better you get.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so you have to write a lot.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, there's no shortage of there's no shortage of places to publish.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, either substaff or a medium, you know, there's no shortage of blogs that need content.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, you just have to write and put it out into the world and do your best to promote it and build a volume for yourself.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, most, I would say most writers today, either in consumer publications or sort of business publications, the the bulk of them are freelance.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um so there's a lot plenty of opportunities.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's really yeah, that's really great advice.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I really encourage everyone listening.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you are interested in, you know, journalism and writing and anything media related, especially with this industry, definitely take heed to that.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think there's a lot to be learned, you know, to be learned from people who have experience like you do, you know.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Tell people, especially the young professionals of our uh, you know, time is you need to do what you need to do to get noticed, and you need to do what you need to do to get a mentor, you know, and to really get real advice from people.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate you saying um what you did and and giving that advice.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um so everyone listening, uh, I am you know really just I just wanted to answer some of your questions about the media side of things.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope I did that.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um definitely leave us your comments and keep this conversation going.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you have any questions at all for Kelly's team, please leave them in the comment section and let us know.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: We'll definitely pass them along.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I really am a huge believer in, you know, like what Kelly said, you know, just good discussion without getting nasty about it.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we have to be able to have have, you know, have heated debates, you know.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh first of all, it makes it it makes the wheels turn, right?
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, it's important to have those conversations.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I really encourage everyone to keep adding to this discussion, you know, and and let's keep talking about things that matter.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, so yeah, thank you so much for tuning in, and I will be back next time.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 51:14
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• 51:19
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• 51:22
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• 51:36
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• 52:02
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• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.