Latest / Shed Talk with Kevin Halliday / Mistakes Into Gifts | Amanda Ovaici, Lawyer at OP Lawyers LLP | Shed Talk with Kevin Halliday Ep. #119
Transcript
- Kevin: What if the biggest failure of your Kevin: career became the story that Kevin: actually helps someone else Kevin: succeed? Kevin: Today's guest has built businesses, Kevin: practiced law, and launched one of Kevin: Calgary's most candid Kevin: entrepreneurial community. Kevin: She also created a hair product Kevin: that accidentally turned itself Kevin: into glue. blue. Amanda Oveshi Kevin: believes our worst mistakes may Kevin: contain our most valuable lessons. Kevin: Wow, Amanda. Thank you for coming Kevin: on Shed Talk. I really appreciate Kevin: you here. Guest: Thank you so much for having me. Guest: I'm really excited for this. Kevin: Do you know what's interesting? It Kevin: was so funny because I had met you, Kevin: what was it, a few months ago? Guest: Yeah, at an EO dinner, an EO Guest: Right. Guest: organization dinner. Yeah, it was Guest: great. Kevin: And it was interesting because it's Kevin: one of those things that you meet Kevin: somebody for the first time, and Kevin: it's so important to work a room Kevin: and understand who who people are Kevin: in a room and then all of a sudden Kevin: they start to shine and and it's Kevin: that aha moment Kevin: that you look at somebody go how do Kevin: i know you why are you so good at Kevin: what you do and whatever that is Kevin: and then you had that law of Kevin: attraction that people would come Kevin: to you and start talking to you Guest: Well, thank you. That's actually a Guest: okay Guest: huge compliment. Guest: I just like to have genuine and Guest: sincere conversations with Guest: individuals, to be honest, Guest: especially at events like that. Guest: It's not trouble, but I think small Guest: talk, I don't mind engaging. But my Guest: biggest, I think, attribute, but Guest: also something that I just really Guest: enjoy, is it's not just getting Guest: past the small talk. It's actually Guest: getting to know people for who they Guest: actually are. Guest: And my mom and my husband would Guest: so Guest: always make fun of me because they Guest: would say, Guest: how did you get somebody to tell Guest: you all of this stuff about them? Guest: And it's just having genuine and Guest: authentic conversations. Kevin: Okay, so let's ask let's ask that a Kevin: better question as we're going Kevin: through Yeah. Kevin: this So you work a room, okay, and Kevin: here you are, and creating and Kevin: understanding what is small talk Kevin: versus to actually get sincerity Kevin: out there, integrity, because it's Kevin: that glow. You had it. So I want to Kevin: understand what is small talk to Kevin: you. Guest: Oh, so, I mean, I just hosted an Guest: event yesterday. Guest: Small talk are just superficial Guest: engagements. Guest: What do you do? Guest: And obviously, that's usually a Guest: segue, an opening with individuals. Guest: But people would just come and ask Guest: very superficial inquiries, and you Guest: can tell that it was just to open a Guest: dialogue. But there was a lack of Guest: sincerity in actually wanting to, Guest: to get to know the actual person. Guest: So, I mean, you'll usually see me Guest: in a room, and sometimes I won't be Guest: talking to absolutely anybody. I Guest: like to also observe people quite a Guest: bit. But the moment somebody comes Guest: and approaches me, and it's kind of Guest: like a spark almost, Guest: where they'll have an interesting Guest: story, or they'll tell me something Guest: about their career and work. And Guest: when I ask a follow -up inquiry, Guest: because I actually genuinely want Guest: to get to know people. It's not... Guest: I feel like when people come to Guest: these networking events, they think Guest: that it's just about spreading the Guest: knowledge about their businesses, Guest: or what they do, and what they... Guest: Trying to sell their companies, Guest: sell their products. Guest: But my special moments are... I Guest: never come to a networking event to Guest: try to sell myself. I actually just Guest: have a sincere interest in learning Guest: and getting to know individuals. Guest: And I think when people see that Guest: you're actually authentically Guest: they Guest: invested Guest: in wanting to know who they are, Guest: and their problems, and their past, Guest: and their future, and their goals, Guest: that's where real relationships, I Guest: think, are built. And those are the Guest: ones that I gravitate with, and I Guest: have the tendency to have... They Guest: may or may not end up coming into a Guest: it doesn't Guest: business relationship, Guest: but that doesn't matter, because in Guest: the long run, Guest: So Guest: I think as long as you make those Guest: touchpoints and sincere Guest: relationships with individuals, Guest: everything comes tenfold. Kevin: it's interesting. So you're working Kevin: What can I review? Just for you? Kevin: a room and you're an EO, Kevin: okay? Guest: Mmhmm. Kevin: You seem to shine amongst Kevin: entrepreneurs, okay? Okay. Okay. Kevin: And you're not even a part of the Kevin: organization. Kevin: No. So, which you probably could be Kevin: a part of the organization if you Kevin: EU, Kevin: want to, but throw this into, into Kevin: the fact is, and I don't Kevin: think a lot of listeners know this Kevin: is about, you're a lawyer. Well, Kevin: because I told everybody you're a Kevin: lawyer, but being a lawyer with a Kevin: firm that, that you're first in Kevin: the, as a lawyer, as a woman being Kevin: a part of that organization. Okay. Kevin: So when you're at an EO event and Kevin: you're You're talking, you don't Kevin: even talk about being a lawyer. Guest: No. I mean, it'll come up. Guest: People will ask, well, as the Guest: intro, what is it that you do? Guest: I'm one of the co -founders of OP Guest: Lawyers. Guest: But if that's not how the dialogue Guest: because it Guest: starts, if it's kind of like a Guest: nudge, nudge, wink, wink, how's Guest: your evening going? Guest: I remember actually in the front Guest: door when I had to walk out because Guest: I had a business phone call with Guest: one of my clients, and there was Guest: another individual that was also on Guest: a call. Guest: And the conversation didn't spark Guest: as with the inquiries as what we Guest: do. I just remember passing off a Guest: joke saying, I guess it just never Guest: ends with the work. Guest: Once we both got off the call, we Guest: just started laughing, and it just Guest: rolled into a very authentic, Guest: genuine conversation about venting Guest: about work. Guest: Or excited for the event, and then Guest: So what's Guest: it just snowballs into a real, Guest: genuine conversation. Guest: I find that those are the best Guest: dialogues you can ever have with Guest: individuals. They're memorable, Guest: they're authentic, and they're Guest: impactful. Kevin: So what's Kevin: it like being an owner of a lawyer Kevin: company and being a woman? Guest: Of a law firm? It's been actually Guest: As Kevin: I'll say, Guest: fantastic. Yeah, it's fantastic. Guest: I really enjoy it. It didn't mean Guest: that I didn't face certain Guest: obstacles when I first entered the Guest: legal industry. Guest: As a junior lawyer, I think females Guest: usually are faced with certain Guest: obstacles. Guest: I think also just junior lawyers in Guest: general are faced with a lot of Guest: obstacles, and I think there's got Guest: to be a lot of change within the Guest: legal industry based on those Guest: factors. Guest: But I also was raised by a very Guest: strong father, and I remember Guest: looking at him one day and saying, Guest: he gave me a lot of... Well, first Guest: off, he didn't give me a lot of Guest: authority in the company in the Guest: beginning whatsoever. It first Guest: started with cleaning toilets and Guest: the warehouse, and I had to work my Guest: way up, so he made sure I earned Guest: That's right. Guest: everything. Guest: But I remember going to have to do Guest: a pitch at a conference for his Guest: company and launching a new Guest: product, Guest: and I just told him some of the Guest: I just wanted to do it on the Guest: obstacles that I faced, and I Guest: floor. Guest: perceived it as because I was a Guest: woman, Guest: some biases that come down the Guest: path. And my father would always Guest: look at me and say, stop making Guest: those excuses for yourself. Guest: They're just excuses. Guest: You need to be able to walk into a Guest: room and command a room, Guest: and if there are sexist comments, Guest: you disregard them. Or if there are Guest: commentary about you being a Guest: female, Guest: they only are given weight if you Guest: allow them to give weight. They Guest: only have control if you allow it Guest: to have control over you. Guest: Right. So I take that approach the Guest: same way I approach the legal Guest: industry and my work within the Guest: firm. Guest: Nothing, any belittling comments Guest: from more senior lawyers when I Guest: work on files, I'll just work ten Guest: times harder to make sure that not Guest: only that my client gets proper Guest: representation, Guest: but to ensure that any bias that Guest: individual may have had based on me Guest: being a female is done with by the Guest: time we reach our second. So Kevin: so when when you're in there and Kevin: you you just mentioned about what Kevin: does it take as when you were first Kevin: started and you had the the Kevin: industry needed to change back then Kevin: and how women were were treated and Kevin: the reason why i'm going into this Kevin: is because when we talk in shed Kevin: talk health Kevin: wealth and mindset and men's mental Kevin: health and it's great we talk about Kevin: men and where they're at but let's Kevin: flip this to the other side of the Kevin: coin is where women are coming into Kevin: an industry industry okay which is Kevin: male dominant okay and you're Kevin: -dominated, Kevin: talking with the lawyers and you Kevin: just Kevin: mentioned about the juniors coming Kevin: in and what they had to go through Kevin: or are they still going through Kevin: that uh nay saying or whatever that Kevin: would be then what changed because Kevin: you said something has to change Kevin: there what is that Guest: So, and actually, I had a great Guest: speaker at my event last night. Her Guest: name is Lina. She's the owner of Guest: Canada's largest female -run firm Guest: across Canada. Guest: She operates out of Vancouver. Guest: And her story was really beautiful Guest: last night. And I think it really Guest: depicts the obstacles within the Guest: legal industry, as a female lawyer, Guest: but also the obstacles that Guest: articling students and junior Guest: lawyers face in general. Guest: So, and it's not prevalent with Guest: every law firm, but I still find it Guest: to be a very significant obstacle Guest: within the legal industry on how Guest: articling students are treated when Guest: they're first entering their Guest: career. Guest: You have to go through an articling Guest: stage of 12 months working for a Guest: law firm under mentorship. Guest: And some lawyers, and law firms Guest: take that, I guess, that role Guest: seriously. And others, I feel as Guest: though they do not. Guest: And I think that there's a lot of Guest: abuse and taking advantage of Guest: articling students. Guest: The speaker that I had last night, Guest: she went into a story about Guest: significant sexual harassment and Guest: abuse that she sustained while Guest: working for a very high -powered Guest: lawyer Guest: back in the day during her earlier Guest: years. Guest: And I think sexual harassment is Guest: still a very prevalent factor Guest: within the legal industry as Guest: lawyers. Guest: I remember working at two law firms Guest: specifically, Guest: and I would say that the abuse was, Guest: and harassment was pretty extreme Guest: when you're a junior lawyer. Also, Guest: some really racial commentary Guest: sometimes. Kevin: And it's interesting because we're Kevin: talking on the lawyer side of it Kevin: the law firm side Kevin: that would you deal would you say Kevin: like it's the old boys club that Kevin: all of a sudden here's guys they're Kevin: older and they assume this is how Kevin: women should be treated okay okay Kevin: and i'm not saying Kevin: it's a good way or bad because i'm Kevin: not i'm not saying that it's right Kevin: because it's not right okay and and Guest: No, yeah. Kevin: it's where we look at women and Kevin: where are they where we're looking Kevin: we're looking at how we're supposed Kevin: at the how Kevin: we're supposed to grow in the Kevin: to grow as a people. Kevin: future okay and it's just not the Kevin: lawyer field but there's other Kevin: industries that have that same Kevin: scenario young entrepreneurs Kevin: starting off here they are here Kevin: they're going and i'm gonna i'm Kevin: gonna use this because i'm gonna Kevin: jump into something here what's Kevin: really interesting is um i'm gonna Kevin: call it it's that uh failure stuff Kevin: that's for women so when Kevin: When you look at women as a whole, Kevin: okay, and they could be, their Kevin: background, Kevin: ethnic background's different as Kevin: well, use this as that, and then Kevin: coming in together Kevin: as women, going into and failing as Kevin: an entrepreneur versus a standard Kevin: white guy failing, yeah, Guest: It's a badge of honor. Kevin: it's a badge of honour. And then Kevin: you get to say, okay, yeah, you get Kevin: to do it here, here we go, we're Kevin: going to go to the next level. But Kevin: a woman failing is like, oh, well, Kevin: oh, I'm not going to do it. Kevin: there's no way you can do it. Kevin: And have you really noticed that? Kevin: Because I see it as entrepreneurs Kevin: and having women tell their Kevin: stories. Would you agree with that? Guest: Yes, but it's prevalently because Guest: I've met with various women that Guest: have told me that, Guest: for example, when they do pitches Guest: for investment purposes Guest: within their companies, Guest: and they're sitting on panels, Guest: it appears to a certain degree Guest: that, Guest: you're right, like a male failing Guest: in their company. Guest: And then rising above it and Guest: creating a new business model, Guest: it's, for some strange reason, Guest: there's a perception, like I said, Guest: it's a badge of honor versus it Guest: sounds, Guest: and I'm not sure where the Guest: difference is and why the Guest: perception is different versus a Guest: female that's failed and wears it Guest: Where is it at the back? Guest: as a badge of honor, Guest: but when it's communicated, Guest: it results in less, even though I Guest: think that the experience in both Guest: the failures, whether it's male or Guest: female, are worthwhile experiences. Guest: They've clearly both learned, and Guest: they've clearly rebuilt, Guest: but it sounds as though usually Guest: within, especially in investment Guest: opportunities, Guest: the males are more inclined to get Guest: it than the females. Guest: And that has been a statistic, Guest: especially in venture capitalists, Guest: where there is a huge Guest: differentiation between Guest: investments, and I think that Guest: that's why there's a lot of groups Guest: that are rallying in order to Guest: create investment groups Guest: specifically designed for Guest: investments in entrepreneurial Guest: initiatives right now. Kevin: So one of the things that you Kevin: talked about, because you had your Kevin: event last night, and it's F'd Up Kevin: Nights, YYC Calgary. And it's been Kevin: very successful for you. Kevin: And then you jumped into that, and Kevin: you're doing it. So just explain a Kevin: little bit why F'd Up Nights is Kevin: of why FF9 is on Kevin: and your experience Guest: on Kevin: women on the F'd Up Nights versus Kevin: men on F'd Up Nights. Is there a Kevin: trend or a different mess up that Kevin: that they're going to talk to? Kevin: they have? Kevin: Women talk, is it more emotional? Kevin: Men will talk business? Or is it Kevin: men talk more emotional and women Kevin: talk different? What is the Kevin: difference between the two Kevin: conversations on F'd Up Nights? Kevin: Oh, interesting. Guest: I've probably never really even Guest: taken the time to take a step back Guest: and even note the differences. But Guest: even just alone in last night's Guest: presentation, Guest: Lena came to the panel with a very Guest: heartfelt story about sexual Guest: harassment and abuse within the Guest: workplace, and how she's now Guest: created a law firm that there's Guest: zero tolerance for that level of Guest: abuse. Guest: Also, a very inclusive firm, Guest: especially in the FF9, legal Guest: industry, when it comes down to Guest: women and pregnancy, Guest: a lot of women will get passed up Guest: for positions out of fear for her Guest: potential interests of potentially Guest: getting pregnant. So when you're Guest: applying for positions, Guest: if that female hasn't had kids yet, Guest: the law firm is hesitant to hire or Guest: secure them Guest: versus a woman who already has Guest: established family because she's Guest: already done and passed, and the Guest: law firm doesn't have to worry Guest: about that female leaving. Those Guest: are factors that Lena embraces. If Guest: you're pregnant, Guest: they'll have proper programs in Guest: place to facilitate it and to bring Guest: you back within the legal industry. Guest: Because actually, it's really Guest: interesting, the stats on how many Guest: women end up coming or even have Guest: opportunities available for them to Guest: return Guest: after pregnancy are very limited. Guest: And it hinders their careers. So a Guest: lot of females, after having Guest: children, end up walking away from Guest: their legal careers altogether. Guest: And so that was her story Guest: versus the two men that spoke on Guest: the panel yesterday. It was about a Guest: failed product development. Guest: And the other one was capital Guest: investments and how to structure Guest: equity appropriately. Guest: So very different ways of thinking Guest: and different ways of approaching Guest: it, for sure. Guest: But also really valuable lessons. Guest: It doesn't matter if you are a male Guest: or female in the audience. Guest: I think when you take... Those Guest: lessons are so important in Guest: to me, Guest: implementing them within your own Guest: company. Guest: Whether it is the failed product or Guest: structuring your company Guest: appropriately to avoid harassment Guest: and abuse or making sure that it's Guest: your company structured from a very Guest: appropriate position, Guest: from making sure your equity is... Guest: How your equity is structured and Guest: whatnot. All of those, irrespective Guest: of whether you're a male or female, Guest: applying it to your company holds Guest: great value. Guest: But it's interesting how both of Guest: them... The type of stories that Guest: so Guest: they want to navigate Guest: towards sharing. Sharing is Guest: interesting. Kevin: with your experience sharing so Kevin: that was the three there so right Kevin: now two business one emotional so Guest: Mm -hmm. Kevin: think back to the other ones where Kevin: it comes in because all the other Kevin: ones kind of Kevin: thing where does the business side Kevin: of it because when you effed up Kevin: nights and you're are we going into Kevin: the emotional because messing up is Kevin: not about the business because it Kevin: affects us emotionally Kevin: emotionally inside and showing our Kevin: side. Kevin: true feelings in there. But you Kevin: also mentioned here, which is Kevin: interesting, and I want to dive a Kevin: little bit into this part, was that Kevin: you just talked about women, and Kevin: it's not just a law firm, because Kevin: it's actually, when you look at it, Kevin: it's women in Kevin: general. It's like men being hired Kevin: over 55, okay, as an example. Kevin: Are you worthy, are you relevant to Kevin: the time and place where we are now Kevin: with AI and where we're at, men Kevin: over that age, that that finding Kevin: purpose and meaning. now with Kevin: Now, women, reversing that and Kevin: women? Kevin: talking about you as an Kevin: entrepreneur coming in, having Kevin: kids. Kevin: Because I know in every other Kevin: industry out there, it's the same Kevin: thing. Well, she's really young. Kevin: She's going to get married. She's Kevin: going to have kids. We don't want Kevin: to hire her yet. Now, they can't Kevin: say that, okay? Guest: No, obviously not. Kevin: one's going to say that. But are Kevin: they actually thinking about, well, Kevin: I don't really, I got to really Kevin: watch that. And them knowing deep Kevin: down, oh, here I am. I just have my Kevin: law degree or, you know, Kevin: I don't want to work. Kevin: I got my marketing degree. I want Kevin: to start a business, I want to be Kevin: an entrepreneur, and I want to do Kevin: this, and 10 strikes against you Kevin: It strikes a game changer. Kevin: already. Guest: Yeah, and it's funny. It's funny. Guest: You're right. They didn't want to Guest: say it. But I ended up... There was Guest: one interview I did go to Guest: where later on I asked for feedback Guest: because I discovered that I didn't Guest: get the position. Guest: And I always... I always reflect Guest: back at that because... Guest: And it's funny. Some of the Guest: harshest critics and harshest Guest: consequences Guest: that I've faced within the legal Guest: industry, it's interesting. It's Guest: not been from males. I find that... Guest: Well, that's not entirely true. Guest: I've had some really bad Guest: experiences also with some males Guest: within the legal industry. But I Guest: also find that the males within the Guest: legal industry Guest: are some of my biggest partners. Guest: They're my biggest advocates. Guest: And the adversity I faced in that Guest: one interview was actually from two Guest: females. Guest: I went for an interview at a law Guest: firm. Guest: And so I'm half Egyptian and half Guest: Portuguese. Guest: I just recently straightened my Guest: hair for the event last night. But Guest: I have really, like, almost Afro Guest: hair. It's very curly. Guest: And so I remember getting ready for Guest: that interview. My father always Guest: taught me to dress respectfully and Guest: businesslike for interviews and Guest: proper. Guest: And so I did. Guest: But I didn't straighten my hair. I Guest: had curly hair that day. And I went Guest: into the interview. And I thought I Guest: got along with these two women Guest: beautifully. Guest: And the person that put me up for Guest: the interview was a male. Guest: But he couldn't be in the room Guest: because, obviously, he was Guest: advocating for me. Guest: So I remember going and attending Guest: that interview. Guest: I thought I got along with him very Guest: well. I thought the communication Guest: was great. Guest: And I left. And then I later on Guest: discovered I didn't. So I had asked Guest: for some feedback on... Guest: And the gentleman that had put me Guest: forward and advocated for me... We Guest: have a really positive Guest: relationship. We'll always have a Guest: positive relationship, even to this Guest: day. Guest: But he... And he was like, I'm Guest: almost embarrassed to give you the Guest: feedback for why they said that Guest: they didn't want to move forward Guest: with you. Guest: And I told him, Guest: well, now you're really going to Guest: have to tell me what it is. Guest: And he told me that they said that Guest: they loved me and that they Guest: would... I'm the type of person Guest: that... That they would love to go Guest: for a drink with and hang out with. Guest: how Guest: But because of how I dressed and Guest: because of how well put together I Guest: was and because of... Also made the Guest: comment on my curly hair, they Guest: thought I had spent hours curling Guest: my hair. Guest: They felt like I was going to be a Guest: little too high -maintenance. Guest: So... Which I laughed at that Guest: because I made the comment that the Guest: curly hair version of me was Guest: actually the low -maintenance Guest: version of me because I... I didn't Guest: spend any time on my hair. This is Guest: just my natural curl. Guest: It's from the Egyptian side of the Guest: family. Guest: And then he did make the comment Guest: of... Guest: That I'm a new female lawyer into Guest: the industry. Guest: That I just recently got married. Guest: And maybe slight concerns that I'm Guest: going to be wanting children soon. Guest: And they need somebody long -term. Guest: And they can't afford right now Guest: somebody taking a year maternity Guest: leave. Guest: Which, hold on, from a business Guest: operations... I'm not going to say Guest: that. I'm not going to criticize Guest: that. I, to a certain degree, Guest: understand it. Although, I think Guest: firms need to shift their... Shift Guest: their perception Guest: on females being pregnant. I think Guest: you should have a program to allow Guest: females that want to continue even Guest: working after having the child Guest: while on, not maternity leave, but Guest: while they're working from home. Guest: There's so many opportunities there Guest: for a female which law firms won't Guest: even consider. Guest: But it was funny, I laughed at the Guest: time because at the time, my Guest: husband and I were dead on the ice. Guest: I had the idea that we were not Guest: having kids at all, at all. So I Guest: kind of just brushed it off and Guest: laughed. But it was funny because Guest: that judgment came from two Guest: females, not from a male. Kevin: it's interesting, because here you Kevin: are talking about this, two females Kevin: saying this about you and having Kevin: that conversation. And at that Kevin: time, you brushed it off. Could you Kevin: imagine Kevin: having that conversation right now Kevin: today? And what would happen like, Kevin: and what women should stand up for Kevin: and actually ask that question? Kevin: Because if you heard that today, if Kevin: someone said that to you, or Kevin: or you were interviewing someone. Kevin: you're interviewing somebody for Kevin: that position, and you say to them, Kevin: you're too high maintenance, not Kevin: that you're saying to the word got Kevin: to you because they wouldn't say Kevin: that in front of you i'm assuming Kevin: could you imagine how that would Kevin: make somebody feel especially young Kevin: entrepreneurs Kevin: women that want to get started and Kevin: that actually have kids like here Kevin: you are in the field and and you Kevin: have you have kids and how hard Kevin: that was to have kids and work of Kevin: course it's hard Guest: It was incredibly hard, actually. Guest: But I would Guest: say to females that, and by the Guest: way, you're saying, Guest: can you imagine that happening Guest: today? Kevin: it probably still does Guest: It does, for sure. And that's why Guest: I'm saying the legal industry needs Guest: to change in that perception. Guest: Because that still, I feel, is a Guest: very cemented perception now still. Guest: I don't find that it's changed very Guest: much, especially within the legal Guest: industry. Guest: And I think that that is, in a lot Guest: of other industries, it has and it Guest: has evolved. Guest: But I feel like this is still a Guest: very prevalent and archaic approach Guest: that law firms even take to this Guest: day. And I, Guest: I would say that that is, that is Guest: something that needs to be Guest: disrupted within the legal Guest: industry. Guest: And there's some of the larger law Guest: firms Guest: well and Guest: that have drastically implemented Guest: changes in it. But I still think Guest: that we're, we have a long way to Guest: go within the legal industry. And Guest: that's something that needs to be Guest: addressed and fixed, for sure. Kevin: it's interesting you mentioned that Kevin: it needs to be addressed and it Kevin: needs to be fixed and you're an Kevin: owner of a legal system now what Kevin: firm. Kevin: are you doing now to change that Kevin: 100 Guest: Within my, within our own firm? Kevin: 100 % of the time. Kevin: because you being an advocate Kevin: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: you're out there right now talking Kevin: to people about Kevin: change effed up nights okay you're Kevin: about FDOT next day. Kevin: getting experience to share and Kevin: tell me tell me your Kevin: deepest darkest theory that made Kevin: you fail and became great at what Kevin: you're doing you just talked about Kevin: basically how you didn't get this Kevin: job because you looked too good or Kevin: too high maintenance and Kevin: and you're going to have kids, and Kevin: then here you are, fast forward, Kevin: owner of a legal organization, Kevin: okay, now putting back into the Kevin: community and saying, here, this is Kevin: what happened, this is what I'm Kevin: doing to create change. Kevin: So, Guest: and I'll put, Guest: I will give an example. Guest: So, when I got pregnant, Guest: which I ended up having my daughter Guest: much later in life. Guest: And so, for me, Guest: I was determined, I didn't want to, Guest: I didn't really want to seize Guest: working. Guest: And so, and there were certain Guest: client files that I couldn't Guest: entrust to any of the other firms Guest: or any other lawyer at the firm at Guest: the time. Guest: Because they were high -conflict Guest: and they were high -equity files. Guest: And especially in family law or Guest: certain abusive employment Guest: situations, Guest: once you build that rapport Guest: for me, Guest: and your client really trusts you, Guest: saying, oh, I have to go on Guest: maternity leave, Guest: and they feel like abandoned. And I Guest: understand that because they've Guest: developed a significant dependency Guest: on you because of everything that Guest: they've gone through. And so, when Guest: I was on maternity leave, I was Guest: still, remained extremely active, Guest: on those files. Guest: Because my clients needed me. Guest: point is, Guest: And I would say this, I think that Guest: within our own firm, Guest: knowing if a colleague or a lawyer Guest: gets pregnant, Guest: my first approach with them is not Guest: to say, here's your maternity Guest: leave, goodbye. Guest: It's, and making sure that they've, Guest: there has Guest: you know, there's going to be Guest: certain obstacles. There has to be Guest: a structure in place to ensure that Guest: you assist them with going on Guest: maternity leave. You also give them Guest: the option to continue working Guest: while on maternity leave. I did. Guest: And although, by the way, Guest: the first six months, oh, it's Guest: sleep deprivation, was obstacles Guest: that still to this day, I can't Guest: wrap my head around how I sometimes Guest: did it. Guest: But that's not even given as an Guest: option to females. If they, if Guest: they, if they want to still pursue Guest: working from home while raising Guest: their newborn child, Guest: it's, it, it should be options Guest: available for them. It should be, Guest: if you want, we can set up a desk Guest: from your house. Guest: Facilitate that. Reduce your Guest: workload, obviously. I would Guest: actually urge them never to do it Guest: within the first at least four Guest: months. At least make sure you take Guest: a solid break. But I, I've met so Guest: many women that are so driven that Guest: want to keep working, but it's Guest: never even an option available to Guest: them Guest: at their firm. And then, obviously, Guest: respect the ones that don't want Guest: to. And then make sure that there's Guest: a healthy transition for when they Guest: get back. Guest: Getting back and putting your child Guest: in daycare is, is, is, they have to Guest: leave at a certain period of time Guest: to pick up their child. And, and Guest: still, lawyers to this day Guest: where are you Guest: leaving before five o 'clock is, Guest: is, where are you going? You, you Guest: still have work. I know you're Guest: busy. Guest: There's this, like, this judgment. Guest: These judgments shouldn't be put Guest: on, and by the way, it's not just Guest: females, also men. Guest: I, I would say, Guest: whether you're a male or a female, Guest: that leniency for anybody, any Guest: family union that has just recently Guest: had a child should be a first step Guest: in making sure afforded to them. Guest: And it's not. And I know it's not, Guest: especially with men. And some men Guest: are maybe not as involved, or not, Guest: don't want to be as involved, Guest: sorry, involved in the upbringing Guest: portion or, or those day -to -day Guest: tasks. But I can assure you my Guest: husband definitely is, and, Guest: and is a huge champion. He took Guest: over the evenings so that I can, Guest: the, I mean, not the breastfeeding Guest: because he couldn't do that, but Guest: definitely the, Guest: helping taking over the, the Guest: I could do Guest: feedings Guest: work at night. He takes on the Guest: some work. and, and assists heavily Guest: roles Guest: with the pickups of our daughter at Guest: daycare and, and not. Like, and so, Guest: to know that also men are, well, Guest: your wife had the child, not you, Guest: so why do you need to leave early Guest: do that? Guest: for work? Guest: I, this, this stigma needs to go Guest: away. I have a colleague at the Guest: firm right now who, his family unit Guest: just recently had a child and he Guest: has to leave early to pick, pick up Guest: his son. And Guest: there's no questions asked. Of Guest: course you do. And I, Guest: you know, of approach firms should Guest: start taking with any family unit Guest: that has, has welcomed a newborn in Guest: their family. Kevin: And it's interesting because when Kevin: you're talking about the family Kevin: dynamics and then okay so the males Kevin: are occurring because we talk Kevin: sometimes men have burnout okay on Kevin: that way or that so all of a sudden Kevin: here you are when Kevin: you had a baby okay in that first Kevin: four months you you go back and how Kevin: did i possibly get through that now Kevin: i look back and going through there Kevin: where for us well we don't want to Kevin: be a part of that Kevin: okay my wife's doing a great job Kevin: here i'm not going to touch that Kevin: you're out, Kevin: but here it is a guy would Kevin: Like, talk about burnout but we'll Kevin: go back in and i found like the Kevin: cultural shift on the whole side Kevin: for women and men um in business Kevin: i'm going to talk in my realm in Kevin: the construction industry Kevin: not so much the law industry is Kevin: that when covid hit working for Kevin: from home became it's okay Kevin: it was like fast tracking people Kevin: wanted to work from home so you had Kevin: mentioned that being you know a Kevin: woman or a man who wanted to go Kevin: home and do half days and you could Kevin: and be happy and be happy and do it Kevin: do half day Kevin: there. COVID actually gave us that Kevin: opportunity to do that. And it Kevin: introduced it that it was okay to Kevin: work from home. Now, fast forward, Kevin: COVID's gone, here we are. Kevin: Some people are still at home, and Kevin: still having those issues and Kevin: growing. So I wanted to just Kevin: clarify on that part. But I want to Kevin: talk about entrepreneurial women, Kevin: entrepreneurs Kevin: getting to the next level as being Kevin: as we know and your experience with Kevin: an entrepreneur, Kevin: them, with women as entrepreneurs Kevin: and giving advice to them to grow. Kevin: Like there's a thing happening, Kevin: what we call right now, Kevin: We Do Canada, and you're involved Kevin: in that. Is that correct? Kevin: Yeah, Guest: I'm starting to get involved in Kevin: Okay, so explain a little bit about Guest: that right now. Kevin: We Do Canada Kevin: with both men Kevin: because it's about young women Kevin: entrepreneurs and you fit that Kevin: whole demographic very well. Well, Kevin: so. Kevin: Yeah, Guest: so we do, I just recently started a Guest: dialogue and conversation with Guest: them. But they support early Guest: entrepreneurs and they try matching Guest: them with individuals for a form of Guest: mentorship. They try to support Guest: these entrepreneur Guest: females that are entering into Guest: their industries Guest: early on by helping them with Guest: either funding, resources. Guest: And I think that that's absolutely Guest: phenomenal because like we had Guest: mentioned earlier, sometimes, I Guest: mean, the stats are pretty clear Guest: that women are less inclined to get Guest: funding for entrepreneurial Guest: ventures versus men. And so the Guest: fact that she's created this Guest: phenomenal organization Guest: that supports and pursues that, I Guest: think, is really endearing and it's Guest: something Guest: that is not only immensely needed Guest: within our community, Guest: but any support for entrepreneurs, Guest: especially the early ones, is so Guest: important. I feel like, Guest: I feel as though there is this Guest: false narrative out there about Guest: entrepreneurship. Guest: Open up a company and make millions Guest: in your first year. We both know Guest: that that's completely false. Guest: But entrepreneurship in and of Guest: itself is already such a challenge, Guest: but we don't really, I think, in Guest: our communities, fully understand Guest: the sacrifices that entrepreneurs Guest: make. Guest: And for our economy, for the Guest: families that they support, that Guest: they bring on as their employees, Guest: entrepreneurs are so instrumental. Guest: They work day and night to build Guest: their dream, Guest: egregious hours they get paid last. Guest: They don't get paid first. Guest: Your employees always come first. Guest: The culture and the environment you Guest: nurture comes first. Guest: The sacrifices that they've had to Guest: make, sometimes to make payroll, Guest: whether that's cashing RSPs, Guest: taking, refinancing the home. Guest: One that launched an event just Guest: comes to mind, almost lost their Guest: home. Guest: Wife was at the grocery store, Guest: couldn't even pay for groceries Guest: because they were in deficit just Guest: to charge for groceries. So, the Guest: sacrifices that they make are so Guest: extreme. Guest: And I feel as though that goes Guest: unnoticed. And so, especially in Guest: the early days, especially for Guest: younger entrepreneurs, any support Guest: that they can get, especially in Guest: the beginning, not only helps and Guest: nurtures the funnel for creating Guest: amazing businesses, but what it Guest: contributes to nurturing and Guest: helping grow those businesses in Guest: our community helps our economy. It Guest: helps and supports the families Guest: within this economy. Guest: So, I feel like a lot of Guest: the things that entrepreneurs Guest: so do and the sacrifices they make Guest: needs to be brought to the Guest: forefront a lot more. Kevin: So, Kevin: what would you say to a young Kevin: entrepreneur female entrepreneur Kevin: ? Kevin: because i really want to Kevin: focus on that side of it because as Kevin: a male we're going to go in there Kevin: and i talked earlier about this is Kevin: as a male we're going to go in and Kevin: hey it's okay to fail okay well Kevin: yeah get up fail fast like work Kevin: hard fail fast we're going to do Kevin: that again keep keep going just Kevin: keep going put your Kevin: mind to it you'll do it because it Kevin: because it isn't a passion project Kevin: okay because if you're passionate Kevin: about something that you love guess Kevin: what as an entrepreneur we're going Kevin: to hate it trust me this is not do Kevin: something that you'd like to do and Kevin: like a hobby or something that Kevin: you're Kevin: going to go through this because Kevin: do Kevin: when you start not having money and Kevin: and like you said not making Kevin: payroll you don't love your your Kevin: passion it becomes a handcuff and Kevin: young entrepreneurs especially Kevin: female where you were at because Kevin: you had mentioned about how you Kevin: help out Kevin: um and when we talk about we do we Kevin: do canada we do is that that young Kevin: entrepreneur that that needs that Kevin: first talking to that spark so that Kevin: thought, Kevin: mentorship what is that mentorship Kevin: for you because right now Kevin: mean? Kevin: you're not an eo or in tech so Kevin: which is a different mentorship Kevin: group not that it's good or bad Kevin: . Kevin: it's Kevin: It's just different. But you get to Kevin: come with the experience as a Kevin: female in the law firm, having Kevin: kids, having set up FW nights, Kevin: FWM, Kevin: understanding community, Kevin: communities Kevin: understanding how to communicate Kevin: and sell. Kevin: How do you talk to younger women Kevin: about your experience? Guest: So, when people contact me for Guest: mentorship or to meet and get Guest: guidance on, Kevin: What's the first question? Kevin: on companies, Guest: from them? Guest: What's the, Kevin: yeah, let's, let's go, let's dig Kevin: that's cool. Kevin: down deeper about this because we Kevin: down to the purple Kevin: talk in Kevin: a vague out there. We're out there Kevin: and say entrepreneurs do this, but Kevin: I want to really get into it that Kevin: Because you have the experience. Kevin: You've been there. The wisdom is Kevin: there. You've started here. You're Kevin: doing this. You're dialed in. Kevin: You're plugged in. Kevin: Now, a young entrepreneur, and Kevin: she's starting off, has a question. Kevin: What's the first question she asks Kevin: you? Guest: Well, I mean, it's funny because Guest: usually, and I'm just trying to Guest: reflect back actually on some, some Guest: mentorship meetings that I've had Guest: with younger women that want to Guest: either open up a company or even, Guest: for example, student at law. Guest: But, Guest: ones that have wanted to open up Guest: companies, Guest: they, they usually first say, like, Guest: how did you open up all of these at Guest: the same time and, and still pursue Guest: your legal career Guest: and still have this other company Guest: and still raise, still have a child Guest: and, and raise a little girl? Guest: Do Kevin: So answer that question. Guest: Yeah. Kevin: Like, it's amazing, because so many Kevin: people out there are listening to Kevin: this, And they're saying, and how Kevin: did you like, Like, like when Guest: Yeah. Kevin: you're talking about this, this is Kevin: a badge of honor. You've gone Kevin: through it as an entrepreneur. Kevin: You've gone through it as a woman. Kevin: You've gone through it. And I use Kevin: I'm, Kevin: here. Kevin: I'm women as, because that's what I Kevin: wanted to talk more about. This is Kevin: to get deeper on that question Kevin: because the mindset's different Kevin: because of the family. Kevin: Yeah. Kevin: and you find that more more males Kevin: won't come up to versus females Kevin: will come up to you and have that Kevin: conversation okay where i'll have Guest: Mm -hmm. Kevin: males will come up to me more so Kevin: than females will come up to me Kevin: right because you're living it Kevin: Yeah. Kevin: you're Kevin: Yeah. proving it and and you get it Kevin: so let's really dive deep into that Guest: Okay. Guest: well, Guest: first off, a lot of the individuals Guest: that sometimes come, they have a Guest: level of self -doubt that they Guest: can't accomplish it Guest: and the first thing is to do away Guest: with that, that you can accomplish Guest: everything. Is it gonna be hard? Guest: Are you gonna face challenges? Guest: Is it gonna be exhausting? Guest: Is it going, Guest: sometimes, will it be extreme? Guest: Whether it's the sleep deprivation, Guest: whether it's Guest: the organization of finances, Guest: whether it's hustling 24 -7, trying Guest: to secure clients, Guest: can it be really overwhelming? Guest: A hundred percent. And if anybody Guest: says that it's easy, it's not. Guest: And so, Guest: I always also try to put it first Guest: in perspective. Guest: If this is really what you want, Guest: there are sacrifices that you have Guest: to make. Like, and that means Guest: I can't just disappear for a month Guest: on a vacation and not still be Guest: dialed in and still be working for Guest: my computer every single night. Guest: Um, I can't just Guest: decide I'm not gonna show up for Guest: two weeks Guest: and, um, Guest: and not be accessible to Guest: individuals. I'm not gonna say I'm Guest: not gonna work this evening. If Guest: there's stuff that needs to get Guest: done, you don't have a choice. Guest: You're responsible, especially if Guest: you have employees, you're Guest: responsible for people's Guest: livelihoods. Like, you need to be Guest: able to deliver. You need to be Guest: able to pay salaries. Guest: And so, Guest: first off, the number one thing is Guest: sometimes entrepreneurship isn't Guest: meant for everybody. Guest: It's meant for our personalities Guest: that they they, they see these, Guest: feed you, and they want to Guest: and this is once again going back Guest: to this false narrative out there Guest: of entrepreneurship. Guest: The, the social media things where Guest: it's open up a company and make Guest: millions, going back to that, Guest: that's not, that's not the true Guest: story and that's one of the parts Guest: of Fuck Up Nights to show that Guest: that's not what these people did. Guest: They didn't just open up and get Guest: lucky and make millions. They put Guest: their blood, sweat, tears and Guest: sacrifices into this. And, and Guest: sometimes that needs to be put into Guest: perspective to, Guest: to younger entrepreneurs that, Guest: I love your idea but you need to be Guest: cognizant of the fact of the amount Guest: of work and hours that need to be Guest: put into this. It's not a nine to Guest: five job. Guest: At least not in the beginning. Guest: You need to grow it Guest: and establish a base and establish Guest: stability before you can even Guest: entertain that idea. Guest: And so, Guest: but there's a lot of usually self Guest: work Guest: -doubt Guest: as to whether or not they can do Guest: it. And I always say that if you Guest: have that work ethic Guest: especially Guest: and if you have that drive and if Guest: you really want this, be cognizant Guest: of the amount of work and hours Guest: and especially for individuals that Guest: have a, a newborn child or, or Guest: young children. Guest: I think it's also important for you Guest: to, them to be cognizant. You Guest: should be trying to, to put at Guest: least a few hours every day aside Guest: to have that quality time. But know Guest: that you sometimes won't be able to Guest: be that present. And there are Guest: sacrifices that will have to be Guest: made. Guest: And, and if they're up for it and Guest: they understand that, and Guest: then, then they should definitely Guest: pursue it. But I usually try to get Guest: them to get away from the self Guest: a little self -help first Guest: -doubt Guest: first of whether they can. I Guest: address the serious obstacles and Guest: like the strength and the, that Guest: you'll sometimes need and the Guest: resilience and you need to be Guest: cognizant that it's not, not Guest: everything is, Guest: you know, rosy and flowers and you Guest: you're looking for with some Guest: will be faced Guest: serious challenges Guest: and failures and you'll have to Guest: figure out how to overcome them Guest: what's common and Guest: with solutions. Guest: And that's also why bringing Guest: it's very, very, Guest: together females Guest: to support each other is really Guest: important. Because when you do face Guest: those obstacles and failures, Guest: hopefully we've created a network Guest: that you can reach into to ask for Guest: support and help because I think Guest: that that's really valuable. Guest: And then it's to help them Guest: structure, organize. I start Guest: immediately dipping into my own Guest: network to see if I have any Guest: contacts that they can get in touch Guest: with or make recommendations for Guest: people that they should be reaching Guest: out to subject on their business Guest: model Guest: models Guest: on how to help grow it and how to Guest: help them get those first clients Guest: through the, the funnel. And Guest: sometimes even facilitate those Guest: intros right off, right off the bat Guest: just to help them get started. I Guest: think that those are really Guest: important. And that's eventually Guest: going to be the objective Guest: of introducing young females with Guest: very, Guest: with founders already that are Guest: established Guest: that authentically also want to Guest: help. Guest: Because it's funny, you'd be amazed Guest: at how that small meeting Guest: of an hour and those few emails can Guest: really change the trajectory Guest: and Guest: of somebody's life. Kevin: it's interesting because when you Kevin: mentioned that i kept thinking Kevin: imposter syndrome Kevin: of foster children. Kevin: and uh how you describe that when Kevin: they're scared and then they go in Kevin: there and it's as you described Kevin: it's like it's going to be this Kevin: this this this okay then why am i Kevin: doing it it's It's like, but what's Kevin: the beauty behind it? Kevin: And I always use this analogy is Kevin: that you don't know you're in jail Kevin: until you break out. And once Kevin: you've had that stake, you'll never Kevin: go back to dog food. Yes, there's Kevin: That's just the, that's the value Kevin: peaks. Kevin: Yes, there's valleys. Kevin: And the support groups that we have Kevin: inside of us and the networking and Kevin: communicating back and forth with Kevin: other individuals and other humans Kevin: that will help us grow and be Kevin: better from experience sharing. Kevin: and the the people that are Kevin: involved in as entrepreneurs Kevin: growing up like -minded because Kevin: we're in an organization like EO Kevin: like you know, Kevin: and I can only speak in that Kevin: for myself, Kevin: organization due to the fact that's Kevin: the only one I've been in is that Kevin: we have way more males than females Kevin: yes there's a lot more females now Kevin: young entrepreneur women coming Kevin: in the play, Kevin: into play and there's so many young Kevin: entrepreneur women Kevin: out there that are actually Kevin: starting that need that support Kevin: group that's designed for them and Kevin: the time Kevin: And you were just talking then back Kevin: to the We Canada is that We Do Kevin: Canada that has that whole Kevin: infrastructure of creating nice, Kevin: great entrepreneurial women to Kevin: grow. Kevin: Where do you see that coming in the Kevin: next little while for yourself? Guest: Well, it's still Guest: to create. Guest: So you made the comment on EO Guest: organization. Guest: In order to join the organization I Guest: think you have to make a certain Guest: amount of money Guest: Yeah, yeah. Guest: in Yes. Kevin: the beginning, Guest: right? So it's not necessarily Guest: sustainable for junior females, Guest: especially by the way, females that Guest: are, I'm just thinking of one woman Guest: that I met with not too long ago Guest: who has three kids and is raising Guest: them on her own and wants to create Guest: this really beautiful concept Guest: and a new business idea. Guest: Even less funding Guest: than five years ago. Guest: because of, by virtue Guest: of trying to raise her family on Guest: her own, right? And so, Guest: now more than ever, Kevin: but Guest: I always say, Guest: never underestimate the resilience Guest: of those individuals because if Guest: they can raise those three kids on Guest: their own, I can't even imagine the Guest: resilience and determination Guest: in wanting to create this. I'd say Guest: I think so. Guest: it's probably times 10. Guest: So, Guest: I think by starting to put together Guest: resources for those individuals Guest: as well as mentorship and combining Guest: the community together, I really Guest: think some amazing things are gonna Guest: come out of it. Kevin: Excellent. Guest: Also, and I wanna say, something Guest: that's unique about females Guest: as well Guest: is, and I'm sure it's also with men Guest: as well, but it's in a different Guest: way. If a woman has been heavily Guest: supported Guest: throughout Guest: to get her company up and running Guest: and she ends up becoming very Guest: successful in it, I find that Guest: automatically those individuals Guest: will want to give back to the other Guest: females that they helped to help Guest: the other female entrepreneurs Guest: in their junior stages wanna grow. Guest: And I feel like it's gonna turn Guest: into a very unique ecosystem and Guest: healthy Guest: environment Guest: that can have really long, really Guest: Benefits, benefits. Guest: beneficial Guest: long term effects. Kevin: And it's interesting, young Kevin: entrepreneurs that are female bring Kevin: a whole different perspective into Kevin: the marketplace as in I'm in the Kevin: construction industry and we Kevin: recognize women that own Kevin: construction companies Kevin: versus in a different industry, Kevin: totally these women are very Kevin: strong, very powerful women, home Kevin: building industry. They are in a Kevin: league of their own and they Kevin: deserve it. Like any entrepreneur Kevin: deserves it if you're working hard. Kevin: It's never handed to you. Oh, you Kevin: got to buy luck and chance. There's Kevin: no such thing as luck and chance. Kevin: You're there because you do it. and Kevin: the respect and and i had talked to Kevin: other people in the construction Kevin: industry women that actually were Kevin: going up allison as an example Guest: yeah Kevin: and and her amazing and her her Guest: So, Kevin: conversations about where she where Kevin: she had to go as a female growing Kevin: in that industry and how many men Kevin: I think Kevin: were Kevin: pushing her down all the time you Kevin: can't do that you're not going to Kevin: that's Kevin: do that are you kidding Kevin: there's you're not allowed to be in Kevin: this job and she has one of the top Kevin: things Kevin: construction companies out Kevin: out there and what she does and her Kevin: team so it's an impressive feat and Kevin: that's really to be able to do Kevin: how she's done it and Kevin: anyone's ever talked to her and and Kevin: to be able Kevin: you can see that in her eyes it's Kevin: like when i'm talking to Kevin: you and we're meeting for the first Kevin: time you see people that have that Kevin: glare that that passion to go to Kevin: the next level and what does it Kevin: take so as an entrepreneur standing Kevin: up tall proud and who you are and Kevin: and you don't take no so Kevin: another question would be the Kevin: controversial belief okay is what Kevin: is something the business community Kevin: celebrates that you believe in that Kevin: is actually harmful yeah Guest: What is harmful? Kevin: what is something the business Kevin: community celebrates we celebrate Kevin: hey this is great and I mean it's Kevin: gonna get into a thing but it's Kevin: actually harmful I'll lead you down Kevin: the path as we're going think about Kevin: Well, Kevin: it Guest: I actually already know, I think I Guest: already know, just celebrating Guest: successes all the time, actually. Kevin: You go to, Guest: especially as a lawyer that was Guest: first starting in her career, Guest: and LinkedIn, obviously, social Guest: media is people's worst enemy these Guest: days. Guest: Because I think everybody gets Guest: caught up into this notion of Guest: comparing themselves to others. Guest: People should automatically stop Guest: doing that. Guest: You never, and they look at their Guest: social media platforms and they see Guest: success, success, success. Guest: And they compare and they determine Guest: their own self -worth Guest: but i also Guest: when compared to, and I think Guest: people really need to stop doing Guest: that entirely. Guest: But I also think that people also Guest: need to stop just, Guest: especially entrepreneurs, Guest: especially in the business, just Guest: showing their successes. Guest: I think you're doing a disservice Guest: to Guest: showing the real authentic stories Guest: behind entrepreneurship and Guest: actually Guest: illustrating to the younger Guest: generation Guest: the truth behind all of the Guest: sacrifices and everything that Guest: they've had to make in order to get Guest: to those successes. So they don't Guest: tell the full story behind the Guest: success. They just focus on the Guest: success. Guest: And then, I would also say it's a Guest: deterrent for these junior Guest: individuals when people are just Guest: speaking about their successes. Guest: Because they consistently compare Guest: themselves and Guest: it Guest: can be overwhelming and it hinders Guest: their even Guest: ability to Guest: want to pursue because they think Guest: that they can never measure up. So Guest: it actually consistently only Guest: conferences and speakers talking Guest: about their successes and that our Guest: company sold for XYZ and we're on Guest: top Guest: of the world. Guest: I think we need to Guest: start normalizing the failures and Guest: the mistakes that took place before Guest: then. It humanizes people. It Guest: humanizes entrepreneurs. Guest: And it's the real truth behind the Guest: story. Kevin: interesting because as you're Kevin: saying that i'm visualizing that Kevin: through all the social connections Kevin: connection oh this is successful Kevin: of the success. Kevin: here's what i'm doing all this here Kevin: all the time. Kevin: here i am see me roar hey Kevin: seeking for we're doing great we Kevin: got this i got a new product line Kevin: oh yeah then here's like the social Kevin: media that how many stories that we Kevin: actually tell that are true and Kevin: then when you talk about effed up Kevin: about F .net, Kevin: nights it's talking about the Kevin: failures that made you successful Kevin: where we're not here to talk about Kevin: success we want to know know your Kevin: lowest point and a lot of people Kevin: entrepreneurs and myself Kevin: and we look at it we don't want to Kevin: talk about that we don't want to Kevin: get into I don't want to talk about Kevin: that because it brings a bad Kevin: feeling like it you know what I I Kevin: have to be positive Kevin: it all the time I have to be on my Kevin: game every time I meet someone I Kevin: can't talk about oh my god how am I Kevin: gonna make payroll oh my god how Kevin: did this happen I don't want Kevin: anybody to know that it's Guest: But why? Kevin: it's my own self -doubt right so we Kevin: have our own self -doubt in doing Kevin: as entrepreneurs we don't want to Kevin: share that so we want to show our Kevin: greatest thing is social media it's Kevin: like oh here I'm doing really good Guest: I think that this is a stigma from Guest: society and so much so even to the Guest: degree of our educational system Guest: because I think that self -doubt Guest: is Guest: not Guest: or these obstacles you faced or Guest: having to struggle even meeting Guest: payroll or getting hit with crazy Guest: large lawsuits because of a defect Guest: in a technology you created. Guest: I, people don't want to share that Guest: because of self -doubt, because of Guest: fear of judgment Guest: when in reality I consider these to Guest: be badge of honors Guest: and I consider it to be the truth Guest: because if you look at any company, Guest: any really successful company, Guest: it hasn't been a straight line for Guest: them. Guest: And so, Guest: the fear of sharing a failure I Guest: think stems from our educational Guest: system Guest: because an F is a no. Guest: Failing and not getting that grade Guest: or not getting the trophy for a Guest: sport activity is a negative thing. Guest: When in reality, the amount of Guest: shots you had to take, the amount Guest: of resilience you built during all Guest: those struggles, Guest: during the lessons Guest: that you learned, the, Kevin: what you could Guest: prove to yourself even when you're Guest: going through those obstacles, like Guest: I remember being faced with some Guest: pretty Guest: difficult Guest: situations Guest: and Guest: being very solution oriented Guest: because there's, you don't have an Guest: option to just be like, oh well I'm Guest: not gonna fix this. Guest: When you have no other option and Guest: you're faced with the, with the Guest: demand that you need to figure out Guest: a solution to resolve it, Guest: that's where you learn and that's Guest: where you grow the most and then Guest: when you look back at it and say Guest: yeah, I overcame that, Guest: those are the stories I think that Guest: are so important. They're, they're Guest: the real stories, they're the human Guest: stories and for people to be so Guest: scared of being judged, Guest: I'm gonna go to a quote that my mom Guest: told me. Guest: You're gonna be judged no matter Guest: what. Guest: You're gonna walk into a room and Guest: you can be dressed to the nines and Guest: be perfect Guest: and half of that room is still Guest: gonna judge you Guest: and that judgment's coming from Guest: their own insecurities and you Guest: can't control that. Guest: So the most you can do is show up, Guest: be the best all right Guest: version of yourself, be authentic, Guest: true and transparent and honest Guest: and, and that way you can always Guest: know that you can sleep at night. Kevin: All right. personal confession what Kevin: Great. Thank you so much Kevin: failure do you teach others to Kevin: embrace Kevin: Embrace, but you still struggle to Kevin: forgive in yourself. Guest: Oh, I'm my biggest hypocrite. I'll Guest: always, have this I'll always give Guest: like this great tangible advice to Guest: others and then always be guilty of Guest: it. Guest: But what's advice that I give to Guest: others? Kevin: What's a failure that you teach Kevin: others to embrace, Kevin: when you still Kevin: but you're still struggling with to Kevin: forgive in yourself? Kevin: struggle? And Guest: That is a really great question. Kevin: that's where that deep, Guest: yeah, Reflection? Yeah. Kevin: that you teach others. So it's kind Guest: What is a failure? Kevin: of one of those things, or like, Kevin: just do it, I failed, get up and go Kevin: and do it. Kevin: Okay, that's kind of way pie in the Kevin: sky out there, but it comes in that Kevin: you want to forgive yourself. You Kevin: tell people that you should do it, Kevin: but you actually haven't forgiven Kevin: yourself for. Kevin: and you might Kevin: Like, oh, I know I give that advice Kevin: because it's correct, Kevin: but I should be teaching myself to Kevin: do that. This Guest: to others. This is actually one Guest: my partner, Guest: that I'm Guest: very guilty of. Guest: I always Guest: I've always had people come to me Guest: when they have either a difficult Guest: business partner or a difficult Guest: employee Guest: and I'm notorious Guest: the teacher. Guest: for saying like especially Guest: things like jealousy or whatnot. Guest: Cut that toxicity out right away. Guest: You only live once. Guest: the one. Guest: I always actually get people let's Guest: say you live to 80 or 90 actually Guest: calculate how many days with based Guest: on how old you are now Guest: how many days you have left on the Guest: planet when they actually do that Guest: calculation and they see it's only Guest: like 20 ,000 days left Guest: then do you really want to devote Guest: and lose that amount of your life Guest: dealing with that toxicity in that Guest: unhealthy relationship Guest: but I'm I'm Guest: notoriously Guest: I always Guest: have the tendency no matter how Guest: terrible the conflict might be Guest: I always try seeing the good in Guest: that individual and trying to Guest: maneuver and fix the relationship Guest: or come up with different solutions Guest: on how to tackle the relationship Guest: in order to to give them a second Guest: is, Guest: and a third and a fourth and a Guest: fifth chance in things when in Guest: reality I know just deep down I Guest: just need to to cut it out and move Guest: on Guest: but there is there is a peak Guest: piece that Guest: though that after a certain period Guest: of time Guest: once I've made that decision it's Guest: really hard for me to go back but Guest: I'm notorious for Guest: for always giving that advice and Guest: making sure that you always have a Guest: healthy and a great environment but Guest: I have the tendency to sometimes Guest: tolerate more than I probably Guest: should Kevin: So we're going to look, I got to Kevin: give you one, a direct verdict, Kevin: okay? OK, I'm going to give you a Kevin: phrase and I want you to tell me Kevin: whether it's nonsense Kevin: nonsense Kevin: or wisdom. Kevin: okay Kevin: OK, is it nonsense or wisdom? Never Kevin: okay Kevin: give up. Guest: that's wisdom Kevin: yeah OK, and why is that wisdom? Guest: never give up Kevin: It's just a phrase. Hey, let's do Kevin: it. Let's never give up. Come on. Kevin: Push it. Never give up. Guest: I think especially nowadays and Guest: once again I don't know if it's Guest: more instantaneous Guest: or if it's more like a a a a a a a Guest: a a a Kevin: a Guest: a Guest: I feel like people these days the Guest: average marriage these days that Guest: I'm seeing is maybe five years I Guest: feel like people are willing to Guest: walk out on their partners too Guest: quickly people are willing to walk Guest: out on employment opportunities too Guest: quickly just the smallest amount of Guest: adversity Guest: and I think that that's a grave Guest: error the positions and the Guest: experiences Guest: I've had that I've faced the most Guest: adversity and the ones that I Guest: refused Guest: to give up and I kept Guest: persevering and pushing through Guest: were the moments of my life that I Guest: learned the most even at the end of Guest: the day if I actually ended up Guest: having to leave that employment Guest: situation Guest: the things that I put myself Guest: through I grew I learned Guest: so much from those experiences Guest: and so Guest: even when Guest: Yeah. Guest: you're making a mistake or even Guest: when there is a big failure Guest: I think that if you still push Guest: through and you don't give up and Guest: you're putting yourself in those Guest: difficult situations I think that Guest: that's the time periods of my life Guest: that I've grown and learned the Guest: most Kevin: it's interesting you were just Kevin: talking about so you talk about Kevin: family law okay and then you talk Kevin: about the divorce case that they Kevin: so many Kevin: don't last five years because they Kevin: gave up right Guest: and Guest: marriages these days are coming Guest: with five year divorces yeah Kevin: and that where we talked about the Kevin: wisdom never give up Guest: now Kevin: there was a there was a reason for Kevin: the never give up and you led right Kevin: radiance Kevin: into it and it was interesting Kevin: because what it stems from when Kevin: you're going to Kevin: have a partner in an or in as an Kevin: entrepreneur you're starting a Kevin: business and you go together as a Kevin: partner not your wife not not your Kevin: spouse but an actual partner what Kevin: do you look for in a a partner, Guest: because Kevin: 100 % Kevin: it's like a marriage. Guest: especially when opening up OP Guest: lawyers Guest: I was very careful Guest: opening up a law firm is I think a Guest: very serious endeavor there's a lot Guest: of factors that you need to Guest: consider Guest: there's a lot of compliance issues Guest: with law society Guest: so you really need to make sure Guest: that you're choosing the right Guest: business partner in that and Guest: originally I didn't actually intend Guest: to have a business partner but I Guest: met one individual Guest: where his name's Manny Guest: and he we had a different he was my Guest: adversarial lawyer on two other Guest: files Guest: he's my opposite I think I'm Guest: starting to realize now more than Guest: ever that I do the best work with Guest: people that I am opposite with so Guest: I'm marketing business development Guest: he's finance and he's numbers I'm Guest: the aggressive lawyer for sure I Guest: take on the high conflict files Guest: that need that need some somebody Guest: to really stand their ground and Guest: defend somebody and he prefers more Guest: so mediation and settlement Guest: files so I'm Guest: at he's and he's more he's way more Guest: humble and well not I don't want to Guest: say humble I think we're both very Guest: humble he's way more Guest: relaxed and go with the flow and Guest: I'm drive a thousand miles an hour Guest: ten at a ridiculous rate and so we Guest: balance each other out he I bring Guest: him up here he brings me down here Guest: how we manage a team and the Guest: dynamic is always really healthy Guest: so I Guest: look for my opposite but I also Guest: need to make sure that we have Guest: certain values that are the same Guest: and those values are I've learned Guest: that I need somebody to match my Guest: work ethic for sure I learned that Guest: we need to have the same Guest: objectives and values when it comes Guest: down to the finances Guest: and making sure that we're aligned Guest: in that sense because the worst is Guest: when you have conflict over money Guest: that's the number one reasons for Guest: divorce but I think that's also one Guest: of the number Guest: companies end up being dissolved Guest: later on so there's certain core Guest: values I think that you have to be Guest: aligned with but I for temperament Guest: and personality and Guest: complementary values I gravitate Guest: towards somebody that is my Guest: opposite in those other aspects and Guest: I feel as though Guest: when you have the right partner Guest: sure you can always build on your Guest: own without question but when And Guest: you also have the right business Guest: it's Guest: partner you'd be amazed at how much Guest: further you can go Kevin: as Kevin: interesting because how you Kevin: describe that opposites attract Guest: opposite Kevin: track Kevin: okay just like in a relationship if Kevin: you're both Kevin: the same in a relationship okay and Kevin: you're married you do this the Kevin: conflicts are there Kevin: all of a sudden you're opposite and Kevin: then you have to give give and take Kevin: in a relationship but in business Kevin: it's the same and then what is as Kevin: not necessarily your business but Kevin: as an entrepreneur Kevin: what would you say for other Kevin: entrepreneurs out there as well Kevin: that have a partner or are looking Kevin: looking to bring in a partner, what Kevin: is a non -negotiable that they Kevin: should look at their partner? And I Kevin: can speak from my experience on the Kevin: for Kevin: other, but I'm going to let you go Kevin: first on that Kevin: one. Guest: what's a non negotiable Guest: when you're entering a business Guest: relationship Kevin: And I'll Kevin: start with one of mine, because one Kevin: of my negotiables, if I were ever Kevin: to bring a partner on, the first Kevin: thing that I do is I want to know Kevin: what their family values are, okay? Kevin: so Guest: So Kevin: from speaking from experience, we Kevin: look at friends and family. I have Kevin: my best friend in the world. he's Kevin: the greatest guy in the world, he's Kevin: all that. He tells me his deepest Kevin: you know you know what, I have an Kevin: secrets. He says, Kevin: affair, and I'm just making this Kevin: going to Kevin: up. Kevin: I'm having an affair, I'm doing Kevin: this and this, and he's telling me Kevin: this, right? So then we're going to Kevin: go into business together, say for Kevin: something else, and he's telling me Kevin: this. And I'm thinking, well, Kevin: you're married to that wife. Wait a Kevin: second, if you're married to her, Kevin: and you're to be Kevin: loyal and committed to her, Kevin: regardless what your relationship's Kevin: like, but you're telling me Kevin: something different but you want to Kevin: be a partner so when things are bad Kevin: with us does that mean Kevin: you're going to cheat on me meaning Kevin: get somebody else tell a different Kevin: story so what is that non Kevin: -negotiable that is he up is my Kevin: partner going to be concise like to Kevin: the point honest and up front Kevin: and have integrity or do you hear Kevin: from your you know your best Kevin: friends in the world they tell you Kevin: secrets or whatever that is and Kevin: would you go to partnership with Kevin: your best friend well no No, Kevin: because what you're telling me, Kevin: you're already cheating on your Kevin: wife. Kevin: And not that that's happening, but Kevin: happens Kevin: then all of a sudden that becomes a Kevin: always Kevin: non -negotiable. Kevin: It's always through the family that Kevin: true Kevin: you truly see it because you can't Kevin: lie. Kevin: You can't have your cake and eat it Kevin: face in face Kevin: too. Kevin: You are who you are. Kevin: So in your business now, you can't Kevin: is there Kevin: use that, what I just said. Guest: damn Kevin: So because now, damn it. Guest: that Kevin: was a good Yeah. What is, and the Guest: one Kevin Kevin: thing is like, what's a non Kevin: -negotiable? Because you had to Kevin: pick it with your partner. As all Kevin: young entrepreneurs, they're Kevin: picking it, picking their partners, Kevin: and some have picked bad partners, Kevin: for sure. Kevin: 100 % Kevin: They stole, they do this. That's Guest: yeah Kevin: why they go to you to talk about Kevin: yeah so Kevin: it. Kevin: But what was one of the things for Kevin: you? Because other entrepreneurs Kevin: want to hear that. Guest: it's funny because you capitalized Guest: on the family unit and a reflection Guest: on that but I would say when you Guest: pointed out that I think by Guest: analyzing the family unit you're Guest: able to assess Guest: values Guest: certain core values again and I Guest: think that a non negotiable Guest: for me would be to make sure Guest: actually maybe it's to to make sure Guest: that the core values Guest: are aligned Guest: and once again that's going back to Guest: finances Guest: that's going back to Guest: how you Guest: how you want to grow the business Guest: but also how you how you're aligned Guest: with how you treat employees Guest: like that's a huge one for me it's Guest: really important to me Guest: and but Guest: one of the huge factors is the Guest: respect you have to really respect Guest: each other I think that if a Guest: partner is willing to go around and Guest: speak negatively to you to other Guest: staff members it creates having Guest: a negative effect on the entire Guest: business unit and trusting each Guest: other without question but trust in Guest: all those components are going be Guest: built based on as time progresses Guest: but I think if you're aligned on Guest: those core values you need to have Guest: those Guest: difficult discussions and I did Guest: with my business partner for OP Guest: lawyers it was almost like a dating Guest: session that we would meet up every Guest: once in a while and I would need to Guest: ask each other the hard questions Guest: on Guest: finance and on the marketing and on Guest: what do we want to build and what Guest: are the values that we're going to Guest: bring into this firm that Guest: differentiate from Guest: where we came from and I think if Guest: you have your core values aligned Guest: then that's a Guest: really positive first step Guest: but you have to have those Guest: difficult discussions in the Guest: beginning Guest: because you're right when you get Guest: involved in a partnership it is Guest: like a marriage and it's very Guest: difficult to and Guest: get out of later on Kevin: it's interesting because a lot of Kevin: people get in they got this great Kevin: idea i'm a partner and then it's oh Kevin: we don't need a non -compete we Kevin: don't need this now you're in a Kevin: marriage okay listen we don't Kevin: pre pre pre pre Kevin: pre Kevin: need to have a what do you call it Kevin: for marriage prenup prenups and Guest: pre Kevin: pre yeah Guest: think yeah Kevin: and it's funny how Kevin: yeah Kevin: the correlations in marriage and in Kevin: business actually work out the same Kevin: so all of a sudden the Kevin: a guy that goes through lots of Kevin: divorces lots of relationship Kevin: building but wants to go as an Kevin: be an entrepreneur and be a partner Kevin: well there's a red flag Guest: okay Kevin: where's commitment level okay Kevin: when because when the tough when Kevin: things get tough okay they get Kevin: tough a marriage you can walk okay Kevin: supposedly it's going to cost you Kevin: 75 percent whatever that is okay Kevin: supposed Guest: yeah Guest: to be 50 but I know what you mean Kevin: yeah but but the idea is that the Kevin: really integrity of the people Kevin: because when things are tough Kevin: that's what defines you as as Kevin: great. That defines you as, okay, Kevin: here it is. Just as I said earlier Kevin: was, oh, just never give Kevin: up. Oh, no, no, no. It's not that Kevin: because Kevin: because it's non -negotiables. Kevin: negotiable And as an entrepreneur Kevin: start your business, you can't have Kevin: starting Kevin: a way out. As a marriage, you say, Kevin: well, if it doesn't work, I'm going Kevin: to go get a divorce. No. Kevin: As a business, we got to feed all Kevin: you've keep pounds you've that Kevin: these families. We got to do Kevin: this and how soon we forget. yeah Guest: very much so and I think people Guest: again Guest: just because when things get tough Guest: you don't have the opportunity to Guest: just walk away it's also really Guest: important to make sure you're Guest: choosing the right business partner Guest: to know that it's not about Guest: if things go Guest: I Guest: think that that's also a really Guest: great question always to ask Guest: yourself and I can definitively say Guest: for OP lawyers I picked the right Guest: business partner just like I did Guest: with Cafe Alchemist without Guest: question I picked the right Guest: business partners because I can Guest: I've Guest: already seen instances at OP where Guest: we've faced certain obstacles and Guest: challenges Guest: and Guest: it was never a about who's to blame Guest: or it was never about Guest: That is Guest: attacking each other it was about I Guest: awesome. Guest: see this happening what do we do Guest: together to tackle it and it's Guest: always a very constructive and Guest: always a healthy conversation with Guest: that type of brainstorming and Guest: partnership I think you can conquer Guest: the world Kevin: next Kevin: In the next year, you got F'd Up Kevin: Nights, Community Builder, Deloying Kevin: Firm, the kids are growing. Kevin: Good, bad and different as an Kevin: entrepreneur, what advice do you Kevin: tell young entrepreneurs Kevin: people that Kevin: and women for the future because ai Kevin: is coming and we'll get into ai a Kevin: oh Kevin: little bit with the Kevin: lawyer side of it as in we don't Kevin: need a lawyer anymore i got ai Guest: god Kevin: I've had so Guest: many clients that have said that Guest: do Kevin: we need ai as a lawyer Guest: right Guest: now now more than ever you're Guest: seeing actually a lot of lawyers Guest: law licenses come under jeopardy Guest: because they're just using AI to Guest: draft their briefs and their Guest: submissions and their materials Guest: for courts is Guest: AI a great tool to Guest: draft a paragraph and help them Guest: refine it Guest: to help target certain things a Guest: little bit more or to Guest: run it through AI and maybe ask it Guest: to fill out potential gaps in your Guest: argument sure and will it lead you Guest: down a rabbit hole of brainstorming Guest: and trying to strengthen your Guest: materials yes is AI designed right Guest: now to Guest: draft my brief for me absolutely Guest: not it's creating Guest: and I just was recently reading on Guest: it I think it may have been from Guest: the United States but a lawyer Guest: submitted a brief to and I think it Guest: was almost like the Supreme Court Guest: level Guest: for a large lawsuit Guest: AI had created fake cases that Guest: don't Guest: exist Guest: and Guest: clearly nobody checked it and the Guest: fake case was even contrary to what Guest: the law says Guest: so if Guest: this lawyer knows the law and Guest: they're reading the brief that was Guest: just generated Guest: you should Guest: have been able to pick that up Guest: right away because Guest: the courts can't render Guest: run your decision. Guest: decisions contrary to what the Guest: legislation says so you should have Guest: been able to pick that up pretty Guest: quickly so we're getting lawyers Guest: here now that are not even Guest: educating themselves on what the Guest: law says Guest: also Guest: sure can you ask AI to give you a Guest: series of cases for a defense on Guest: something Guest: yes it'll Guest: in -application process? Guest: probably populate a bunch of cases Guest: you should as lawyers be going back Guest: and reading the cases to make sure Guest: it's actually applicable instead of Guest: just blindly Guest: one thing, Guest: saying oh I'm just going to copy Guest: talk to you. Guest: and paste this because nine times Guest: out of ten AI isn't summarizing the Guest: facts properly from the case does Guest: it help narrow and reduce the level Guest: of legal research that you have to Guest: do by at least finding you some and Guest: then you taking it and reading the Guest: case and seeing if it's actually Guest: applicable Guest: yes and that's great because Guest: something that would normally take Guest: me Guest: you four Guest: legal research can be extensive Guest: especially if it's a high conflict Guest: case 24 hours to do and knock it Guest: down to 10 I'm singing from the Guest: rooftops for that I but Guest: think Guest: lawyers you still need to do your Guest: due diligence you still need to Guest: review you still need to do the Guest: AI Guest: work and we're seeing that that's Guest: not happening and it is having Guest: really negative ramifications on Guest: people's careers so Guest: I think AI is a great complementary Guest: tool for now will it change I mean Guest: it's rapidly growing every single Guest: day Guest: but Guest: I would still say the Guest: lawyers that right now as of today Guest: that are relying on it to draft the Guest: full briefs Guest: that's a very dangerous game you're Guest: playing Guest: you Guest: need to be still doing the work AI Guest: is not at the level Kevin: at Guest: all to be doing that work for you Guest: it's creating Guest: things that don't even exist just Guest: to appease the user Guest: and Guest: I think people need to be very Guest: careful with AI I Guest: also think will that evolve and Guest: change yes without a doubt Guest: but I still think there Guest: it's going Guest: needs to be specifically Guest: good thing to sit around and narrow Guest: I'm a litigator so I think there Guest: still have to be litigators that Guest: argue in court for those arguments Guest: I see AI as a useful tool to reduce Guest: the cost and the amount of hours Guest: lawyers need to spend on files to Guest: help narrow the scope Guest: being able to reduce legal costs is Guest: always a huge thing that I'm always Guest: trying to implement within the firm Guest: I hate charging I never charge the Guest: full time that I spent on legal Guest: research for clients I struggle Guest: with that Guest: and will that by reducing our Guest: great Guest: legal fees there's a huge access to Guest: justice issue right now going on in Guest: our community where people can't Guest: afford legal Guest: and that should not be the case Guest: especially Guest: when it comes down to family issues Guest: and child and domestic violence Guest: problems within our community right Guest: now so I hope AI will help Guest: influence law firms in reducing Guest: legal fees to give Guest: people more access to the legal Guest: system but I think lawyers need to Guest: be very careful with how they use Guest: AI right now Kevin: you you you know what any last Guest: thank Kevin: words saying that you would tell Kevin: any entrepreneur Kevin: other people Kevin: where they are anything one last Kevin: yes Kevin: word Guest: thank Guest: I Guest: would say Guest: never Guest: give up you're always going to be Guest: faced with significant challenges Guest: it's not about if it happens it's Guest: about when Guest: and Guest: we need to stop being in fear of Guest: putting yourself in those Guest: uncomfortable situations Guest: because that's where you're going Guest: to grow and learn and be able to Guest: build your company the most Guest: and Guest: don't be ashamed of your mistakes Guest: they're gifts they're the greatest Guest: gift you'll ever receive as long as Guest: you take the time to learn and Guest: reflect on them Kevin: thank Kevin: you very much you know what thanks Kevin: uh amanda for coming on and uh wow Kevin: see you guys on shed talk you know Kevin: what like subscribe hit that button Kevin: likes Kevin: and you know what? DM. If you have Kevin: any questions, how to get a hold of Kevin: yeah they Kevin: you Guest: can contact us at op lawyers Guest: there's an information email or Guest: info at op lawyers dot ca online Guest: definitely Guest: hesitate to reach out to me on Guest: there I'm always happy to have a Guest: discussion and obviously on Guest: LinkedIn and Kevin: also check out F'd Up Nights Kevin: checked F Kevin: YYC. You know, it's once a month. Kevin: We'll see you guys there. Thanks Kevin: again and see you guys on Shed Kevin: Talk. Thank you. Guest: amazing Guest: thank you by the way fuck up nights Guest: is once every quarter Kevin: Oh, and Kevin: that by the way, it is once every Kevin: quarter. Guest: was Perfect. Guest: fantastic thank you so much Kevin I Guest: love the conversation Guest: oh Guest: I loved it absolutely loved it Guest: hopefully Guest: I kept you