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The Collar Bomb Heist · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works
0:04
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh
0:13
Speaker 1: Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Jerry's over there, and
0:16
Speaker 1: this is Stuff you Should Know, the True Crime edition again. Yeah,
0:21
Speaker 1: we've done a few of these, right. True crime is
0:24
Speaker 1: so hot right now? Hey, man, we were we were
0:28
Speaker 1: dabbling on the periphery of true crime when most of
0:31
Speaker 1: these people were wetting their diapers. That's right, man, that
0:35
Speaker 1: is right. I'm glad somebody finally said it. We were
0:38
Speaker 1: occasionally doing a poor job of covering true crime ten
0:42
Speaker 1: years ago. That's right. We're gonna do it again, right,
0:47
Speaker 1: we continue that great rich history. Yeah, because true crime
0:51
Speaker 1: can be extraordinarily interesting, especially when you're talking about an
0:55
Speaker 1: extraordinarily over complicated heist that results in a man's bizarre death,
1:02
Speaker 1: death by bizarre means and involves what really ultimately, you
1:08
Speaker 1: could make a case as an unsolved mystery still today,
1:12
Speaker 1: even though it's technically bureaucratically been solved. A lot of
1:17
Speaker 1: people say, no, this thing hasn't been solved yet. You
1:21
Speaker 1: got you got homemade bombs, you got a scavenger hunt,
1:27
Speaker 1: got a crreck dealer, well, you gotta have a correct dealer,
1:30
Speaker 1: got prostitutes, m got pizza and yeah, and let's start
1:36
Speaker 1: with the pizza Geo Metro right, which, by the way,
1:41
Speaker 1: I just wanted to point out ahead of time, there
1:42
Speaker 1: is no more pizza delivery car two thousand three than
1:48
Speaker 1: a geometro, a tal one, no less. The thing is,
1:52
Speaker 1: it's almost like they rolled them right off the line
1:54
Speaker 1: in two thousand three, with the straight to a pizza place,
1:57
Speaker 1: with the pizza guy inside already and the little signed
2:00
Speaker 1: magneted on right a little crooked yep. So the whole
2:06
Speaker 1: thing does start, actually with a pizza guy, a pizza place,
2:10
Speaker 1: and a teal Geo Metro. And like you said, the
2:13
Speaker 1: whole thing starts in two thousand three in Erie, Pennsylvania.
2:18
Speaker 1: And there was a and still is I looked it up.
2:21
Speaker 1: There's a pizza place called Mama me Is Pizza Rhea.
2:26
Speaker 1: But fine, sure it gets the job done right. And
2:30
Speaker 1: at about two pm on August two thousand three, a
2:36
Speaker 1: pizza delivery guy named Brian Wells I think he was
2:39
Speaker 1: forty six at the time. He was about to end
2:42
Speaker 1: his morning shift when a call came in for two
2:46
Speaker 1: small sausage and pepperoni pizzas, and the the delivery was
2:52
Speaker 1: I guess the opposite way of where Brian was going
2:55
Speaker 1: to go on his way home. But he said, you
2:57
Speaker 1: know what, I'll take this one last order and he
2:59
Speaker 1: walked out the door at about two And the next
3:03
Speaker 1: time that Brian Wells was seen in public again, he
3:06
Speaker 1: was entering a p NC bank branch just down the
3:10
Speaker 1: street from his pizza place, a few miles up the road,
3:14
Speaker 1: and he looked a lot different than he did when
3:17
Speaker 1: he left the pizza parlor about twenty eight minutes earlier. Yeah, so,
3:24
Speaker 1: first of all, he was he was walking with a cane,
3:26
Speaker 1: kind of a funny looking kane uh. And then under
3:30
Speaker 1: his T shirt he had clearly and if you've seen
3:33
Speaker 1: the footage and the photos, you can see a warning
3:38
Speaker 1: by the way for video, yeah, for the future. It's
3:43
Speaker 1: quite graphic. It's out there, but it is out there.
3:46
Speaker 1: But he had clearly some large, boxy looking thing. It
3:51
Speaker 1: looked like he's wearing a shoe box around his neck
3:54
Speaker 1: with a T shirt pulled over it kind of butt in.
3:56
Speaker 1: The teller at the bank's defense could have been an
3:59
Speaker 1: artific shell torso, and she probably didn't want to draw
4:02
Speaker 1: attention to it. She yes, she was being very kind, right.
4:06
Speaker 1: So one thing I want to point out too, there's
4:08
Speaker 1: already discrepancy what we're like a minute into the story,
4:11
Speaker 1: and there's already a discrepancy. That shirt he was wearing
4:14
Speaker 1: over that boxy thing underneath his shirt said guests on it.
4:19
Speaker 1: And I've seen that it was written somehow, like in
4:22
Speaker 1: spray paint or marker, or that it was an actual
4:25
Speaker 1: guest Jeans T shirt. Really, so either an officially licensed
4:29
Speaker 1: or not license but whatever brand shirt or a homemade
4:33
Speaker 1: jankie spray painted version. Yeah, And if you look, the
4:37
Speaker 1: pictures don't really show one way or another. It looks
4:41
Speaker 1: more like it's homemade. And I looked up to see
4:43
Speaker 1: if there was a guest shirt that, you know, if
4:45
Speaker 1: I could find the actual guest shirt, it wasn't. Couldn't,
4:48
Speaker 1: so I think it may have been homemade. Regardless, he's
4:52
Speaker 1: wearing this shirt that says guests on and he walks
4:54
Speaker 1: up to the teller and he hands the teller a note,
4:57
Speaker 1: and the note says, I have a bomb. Get everybody
5:02
Speaker 1: who has access codes to the safe together and put
5:05
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty thousand dollars into a bag and
5:09
Speaker 1: bring it to me. I think he said, you have
5:12
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes to do this, which is kind of a
5:14
Speaker 1: long time if you're a bank robber, it is. It's
5:17
Speaker 1: like almost like luxurious. And what said, like sixty seconds, yeah,
5:22
Speaker 1: or this should have happened yesterday, chop chop. So he um.
5:28
Speaker 1: He stands back and waits, apparently grabs a dumb, dumb
5:31
Speaker 1: lollipop out of the little basket while he's waiting, because
5:34
Speaker 1: why not. And the teller says, sir, um, we don't
5:38
Speaker 1: have like, we can't get into the safe. That's just
5:40
Speaker 1: not how things work. I'm sorry, but as a consolation prize,
5:43
Speaker 1: I'm going to put two dollars into a bag for
5:47
Speaker 1: you right here and send you on your way. Okay. Yeah,
5:49
Speaker 1: And and importantly we did not mention he lifted his
5:52
Speaker 1: shirt up and showed this teller this this bomb, this
5:57
Speaker 1: what's called a collar bomb, strapped around neck. Right. So
6:02
Speaker 1: he walks out of the bank a freeman. And the
6:05
Speaker 1: next time that he's seen in public is about fifteen
6:08
Speaker 1: minutes later, and he's seen in public by some Pennsylvania
6:12
Speaker 1: State troopers who are on the lookout for this guy.
6:15
Speaker 1: And he's still wearing that shirt, he's still got the
6:18
Speaker 1: big bulge, and he's standing around his geometro parked in
6:21
Speaker 1: a parking lot that is actually shared with that p
6:25
Speaker 1: NC bank and the McDonald's and he's in a parking
6:29
Speaker 1: lot right there. So basically he left the bank robbery
6:32
Speaker 1: and went about a hundred to two feet away from it,
6:35
Speaker 1: and that's where he was found like a full fifteen
6:38
Speaker 1: minutes later. Yeah. So these these these coppas, these troopers
6:43
Speaker 1: come over and uh, he says, hey, guys, this is
6:48
Speaker 1: a bomb around my neck. A group of a group
6:51
Speaker 1: of black men chain this bomb around my neck at gunpoint,
6:55
Speaker 1: forced me to rob this bank for them. I'm not
6:58
Speaker 1: gonna I'm not lying here. A thing is gonna go off.
7:01
Speaker 1: So the cops called the bomb squad and they do
7:05
Speaker 1: I saw, you know his The family of Wells is
7:08
Speaker 1: still angry about the fact that she says they did
7:11
Speaker 1: nothing to save them. But I would be too. By
7:14
Speaker 1: the way, we should shout out Wired magazine. Oh yes,
7:18
Speaker 1: we really really should. A lot of this came from
7:21
Speaker 1: a great, heavily researched story by Rich Shapiro for about
7:26
Speaker 1: eight years ago, called The Incredible true story of the
7:28
Speaker 1: color bomb heist. So thank you Rich for your work.
7:32
Speaker 1: But the dudes on the ground, he said, I mean,
7:35
Speaker 1: if you I kind of remember this happening, because when
7:38
Speaker 1: I went and looked at the still images, I was like,
7:40
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I've I've seen this. And this is
7:44
Speaker 1: guy sitting on the ground, uh, with this thing around
7:48
Speaker 1: his neck, kind of just waiting, seated on the pavement
7:52
Speaker 1: for about twenty five minutes. He says, very uh interestingly,
7:56
Speaker 1: like did you call my boss at the pizza place? Uh?
8:00
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, this bomb starts beeping fast,
8:04
Speaker 1: which is never a good sign. And when I was
8:06
Speaker 1: reading the story, I thought, well, that's just a ruse.
8:09
Speaker 1: But no, this thing detonated and killed him. It blasted
8:13
Speaker 1: a hole in his chest. Um, it did not blow
8:16
Speaker 1: his head off like the internet says. No. But it
8:20
Speaker 1: was a violent, awful death. Yeah, it was, and it
8:24
Speaker 1: was pretty quick. And then three minutes after the bomb
8:28
Speaker 1: goes off, the bomb squad showed up, so they so
8:31
Speaker 1: he's dead. This, this guy, Brian Wells, is dead. And
8:34
Speaker 1: the whole time he was protesting, He's like, you know,
8:36
Speaker 1: this is I was forced to rob the bank. Are
8:39
Speaker 1: you guys gonna get this off of me or what? Um? Yeah,
8:42
Speaker 1: he said something like did you call my boss? Because
8:45
Speaker 1: apparently he was a very um loyal employee. He'd been
8:48
Speaker 1: working at MoMA MIA's for how long, like ten years
8:51
Speaker 1: or something like that, for years and years, and he'd
8:55
Speaker 1: only called in late once, not even sick late once
8:58
Speaker 1: when his cat died. That Rich Shapiro and that Wired article,
9:02
Speaker 1: so um, it seemed like he actually was telling the
9:07
Speaker 1: truth that he had been abducted and forced to rob
9:10
Speaker 1: the bank and then had been a victim. I think
9:12
Speaker 1: the bomb going off really kind of put an exclamation
9:16
Speaker 1: point on his story that he was not a willing
9:19
Speaker 1: participant in this, right. Yeah. So the cops obviously check
9:23
Speaker 1: out that geo metro uh and it's sweet sweet styling,
9:27
Speaker 1: and they saw his cane in there. It turns out
9:29
Speaker 1: the reason why the cane was funny looking is because
9:32
Speaker 1: it was also a gun. And it really looks a
9:36
Speaker 1: lot like a gun. Yeah when you when you look
9:38
Speaker 1: at it. Um, the bomb was clearly homemade, had a
9:42
Speaker 1: couple of different parts to it. It was this this
9:45
Speaker 1: banded metal collar that he wore around his neck. It
9:48
Speaker 1: was like locked to his neck. Head, four key holes,
9:50
Speaker 1: and then a combination lock. It was really locked to
9:53
Speaker 1: his neck, and then an iron box with two pipe
9:56
Speaker 1: bombs loaded up ready to go. And then interestingly, and
10:01
Speaker 1: this will figure uh, put a pin in this one
10:03
Speaker 1: because this will figure in the in the case later. Uh.
10:07
Speaker 1: It had two kitchen timers in there in addition to
10:12
Speaker 1: an elect an electronic countdown timer, yeah, which was I
10:15
Speaker 1: guess the thing that started beating faster and faster. Yeah.
10:18
Speaker 1: And then some decoy wires. You'll always gotta have those
10:20
Speaker 1: if you're if you're making a bomb. Sure, but I mean,
10:23
Speaker 1: like that's pretty smart. So there's decoy wires. They were
10:25
Speaker 1: apparently also stickers that said like don't do it or
10:28
Speaker 1: you know, skull and crossbones or rat poison whatever. Yeah,
10:33
Speaker 1: and uh oh that's a good nine to five reference.
10:36
Speaker 1: I just saw that the other night. Um, so it
10:39
Speaker 1: was a it was a homemade bomb, but it was
10:42
Speaker 1: by all accounts a well made bomb too, and it worked,
10:46
Speaker 1: which I think is one of the the big the
10:50
Speaker 1: big questions about any homemade bomb is whether it will
10:52
Speaker 1: actually work or not. And this one worked with deadly effect.
10:56
Speaker 1: That's right. So the most important thing they found in
10:59
Speaker 1: this car though. Um were some letters, some handwritten notes
11:04
Speaker 1: addressed to bomb hostage. So one of them said, I
11:08
Speaker 1: mean these were instructions basically on what this guy should do,
11:11
Speaker 1: which further kind of cemented like, hey, this guy is
11:14
Speaker 1: probably telling the truth. It said, go rob this bank
11:17
Speaker 1: of two fifty grand, and then very strangely outlined this little,
11:24
Speaker 1: uh scavenger hunt basically to where eventually you will land
11:28
Speaker 1: upon the keys to in combination to get you out
11:31
Speaker 1: of this thing by going all over town and finding
11:34
Speaker 1: these various hidden notes, and at the last note you
11:37
Speaker 1: will you will be able to free yourself. Yeah, the
11:39
Speaker 1: last one will give you the keys and the combination.
11:43
Speaker 1: But you better hurry because you have a limited amount
11:45
Speaker 1: of time. If you stop and think you're going to
11:47
Speaker 1: waste time and you're going to die, we can detonate
11:50
Speaker 1: this remotely and we're going to be following you. It
11:53
Speaker 1: was written pretty crazily. Have you read any of the note, Yeah,
11:57
Speaker 1: so like there it's it's got a lot of um
12:01
Speaker 1: like just like a lot of jump jump cuts and
12:04
Speaker 1: or jump scares in it. You know, like you'll it's
12:07
Speaker 1: like go do this and and then go do that
12:09
Speaker 1: after that, and then don't try anything in funny, we're
12:11
Speaker 1: gonna blow you up. You know. It has those every
12:13
Speaker 1: once in a while. And there's drawings in there of
12:16
Speaker 1: where he could find, like like the notes and all that,
12:19
Speaker 1: So that he made it as far as the first note,
12:21
Speaker 1: which was McDonald's. It was in that that McDonald's that
12:24
Speaker 1: shared a parking lot with the PNC bank. That was
12:26
Speaker 1: where the first note was. So he made it to
12:29
Speaker 1: that that McDonald's grabbed that note, and that note was
12:32
Speaker 1: directing him out of town um to another note, and
12:37
Speaker 1: he didn't make it that far. But when the cops
12:39
Speaker 1: caught up with him. Yeah, so the scavenger hunt was
12:43
Speaker 1: he like he said, he had gotten just to the
12:45
Speaker 1: one place. So the cops then say, well, here's what
12:49
Speaker 1: we're gonna do. We're gonna complete the scavenger hunt. And
12:52
Speaker 1: they were like, whoa, you just blew my mind. That's
12:55
Speaker 1: some great policing. Should we take a break, sure, all right,
13:00
Speaker 1: scavenger hunt has just started, by the coppas, we'll be
13:03
Speaker 1: right back. All right, we're back. So the scavenger hunts
13:31
Speaker 1: still on, Chuck, I mean, they make it. The cops
13:35
Speaker 1: follow from the note that Brian Wells had to the
13:40
Speaker 1: next clue, and they found the next note, and that
13:43
Speaker 1: directed them to another place even further out of town,
13:47
Speaker 1: to where they found the jar where the note was
13:49
Speaker 1: supposed to be. But the note was gone. Yeah, and
13:52
Speaker 1: they don't really know what that means. They didn't know
13:54
Speaker 1: if it was just something to keep them busy, preoccupied.
13:58
Speaker 1: They didn't know if the person who was designing this
14:01
Speaker 1: scavenger hunt got interrupted or knew that the cops were
14:04
Speaker 1: around and they were doing it sort of in real time.
14:07
Speaker 1: But at any rate, the unfortunately the scavenger hunt just
14:10
Speaker 1: kind of pizzled out, because that was kind of a
14:11
Speaker 1: cool part of the story. Yeah, it really was. It
14:14
Speaker 1: was like, it's one of the things that makes this
14:17
Speaker 1: it's just an incredibly bizarre crime. Why the scavenger hunt,
14:21
Speaker 1: It's going to keep coming up again and again, Right,
14:24
Speaker 1: So when the true when the scavenger hunt ran out,
14:26
Speaker 1: the trail actually went cold. The case started to get
14:29
Speaker 1: cold for a few months. The cops sniffed around Brian Wills,
14:32
Speaker 1: tried to figure out, you know what, why him, what
14:35
Speaker 1: happened with him, And they went back to his place
14:38
Speaker 1: of employment and they they kind of checked out the
14:42
Speaker 1: kind of person he was right, yeah, And they very
14:46
Speaker 1: smartly said, well, wait a minute, why don't we why
14:48
Speaker 1: don't we check out what that last delivery was supposed
14:50
Speaker 1: to be. There may be a clue there. And it
14:53
Speaker 1: was an interesting place it was at the It was
14:56
Speaker 1: you can only get there by dirt road and it
14:59
Speaker 1: was right next to a TV transmission tower and a
15:02
Speaker 1: kind of a remote wooded area. And cops combed the area,
15:08
Speaker 1: found shoe prints that matched wells. They found those classic
15:13
Speaker 1: iconic geometro tire tracks that everyone could recognizes, Bye Bye Sight.
15:20
Speaker 1: But there really weren't any more clues as far as
15:23
Speaker 1: the cops were concerned at that location. So where the
15:26
Speaker 1: cops had found a dead end, a reporter uh and
15:29
Speaker 1: photographer for the Eerie Times News went and did a
15:32
Speaker 1: little investating of his own. And I saw this house,
15:36
Speaker 1: you know, next door where the pizza was delivered, and said, ween,
15:38
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go knock on the door. This guy
15:40
Speaker 1: answers the door. Um, And his name was Bill Rostein,
15:44
Speaker 1: and he actually said, you know, you can look around
15:46
Speaker 1: if you want. He's fifty nine years old, he's a handyman,
15:49
Speaker 1: wasn't married, had lived there his whole life. And apparently
15:52
Speaker 1: he seemed really smart. Um had a very uh articulate
15:57
Speaker 1: way of speaking and apparently was fluent in several of
15:59
Speaker 1: the languages. And the journalists kind of did a little
16:03
Speaker 1: poking around and didn't really see much and took off.
16:07
Speaker 1: But he made contact with Bill Rothstein. He's the first
16:11
Speaker 1: person that kind of was went a knocking, right, but
16:15
Speaker 1: nothing came of it, and the cops, as far as
16:17
Speaker 1: I know, never went and met with Bill Rothstein, even
16:20
Speaker 1: those houses right next to the delivery place where Wells
16:23
Speaker 1: was supposedly accosted, right. And then a few like I said,
16:29
Speaker 1: the case has gone cold by this time, if a
16:32
Speaker 1: couple of months have gone by, the whole the whole um,
16:36
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got this crime, this very public caper
16:38
Speaker 1: that's captured the public's attention. A guy died by by
16:42
Speaker 1: being blown up while the while under police supervision. And
16:47
Speaker 1: there's no leads, there's no nothing. And then finally, uh,
16:51
Speaker 1: several weeks, a few months I think after the call Um,
16:55
Speaker 1: there's a nine one one call from Bill Rothstein and
17:00
Speaker 1: he tells the police that in his freezer he has
17:03
Speaker 1: one of those serial killer chest freezers. There's actually a
17:07
Speaker 1: body a man's body and that it was Um, it
17:13
Speaker 1: is not someone he murdered, but he helped cover up
17:15
Speaker 1: the murder of this man who was the boyfriend of
17:19
Speaker 1: Bill Rothstein's ex girlfriend from way way back in the day.
17:23
Speaker 1: And now the chain of events has been set off, right.
17:29
Speaker 1: And if you're like me and you start hearing wife
17:32
Speaker 1: of the ex girlfriend's dad's cousin, your brain gets a
17:36
Speaker 1: little jumbled. So just very plainly, he used to date
17:40
Speaker 1: this woman. This woman called him up and said, Hey,
17:44
Speaker 1: I've murdered my current boyfriend or was it her husband? Uh,
17:48
Speaker 1: it was her boyfriend, and she said, and I need
17:51
Speaker 1: your help here. Um, I blasted him with a with
17:54
Speaker 1: a shotgun, and I know we tated, oh twenty years ago,
17:59
Speaker 1: but we come help me out because they were still
18:01
Speaker 1: in contact. I guess they remained friends. I guess. So
18:04
Speaker 1: in this racked Bill Rostein. Apparently he thought about committing suicide.
18:07
Speaker 1: Apparently there was even a note. They found, a suicide note,
18:11
Speaker 1: but he maintained, like you said with the cops, that
18:13
Speaker 1: he didn't have anything to do with anything. But most
18:17
Speaker 1: of the clean up, the clean up, getting rid of
18:20
Speaker 1: the murder weapon and then holding onto the body. Yeah,
18:24
Speaker 1: but what which the reason he held on the body
18:26
Speaker 1: was supposed to get apparently supposed to grind this body up.
18:29
Speaker 1: And that's where he finally stopped short and was like, Jesus,
18:32
Speaker 1: I can't do this, And he said he told the
18:34
Speaker 1: cops that the reason he called them finally lose because
18:37
Speaker 1: since he wasn't going through with grinding up the body,
18:39
Speaker 1: he was worried what this woman, Marjorie Deal Armstrong was
18:43
Speaker 1: going to do to him. He's like, I dated this lady, right,
18:46
Speaker 1: She's not a nice person. And so when he says
18:49
Speaker 1: Marjorie Deal Armstrong to the eerie cops, just alarm bell
18:53
Speaker 1: start going off because by this time, already Marjorie Deal
18:57
Speaker 1: Armstrong was a local legend as far as crew roles
19:00
Speaker 1: are concerned. She was this very very bright woman um
19:04
Speaker 1: who I think, at the age of thirty five back
19:08
Speaker 1: in the eighties, had been indicted for killing one of
19:12
Speaker 1: her boyfriends, shot him six times. She played that she
19:16
Speaker 1: had killed them in self defense, that he was an
19:18
Speaker 1: abuser of her, and she was actually acquitted. A few
19:22
Speaker 1: years after that. She was married to a guy named Armstrong,
19:25
Speaker 1: and he showed up at the hospital with a head
19:29
Speaker 1: trauma and actually died of a cerebral hemorrhage, but there
19:33
Speaker 1: was no coroners in quest or anything like that, and
19:36
Speaker 1: so it just was something suspicious, you know, the second
19:39
Speaker 1: second significant other of this woman to die under suspicious
19:44
Speaker 1: or violent circumstances. So so when Bill Rothstein said I'm
19:48
Speaker 1: worried about what Marjorie deal Armstron's gonna do to me,
19:50
Speaker 1: the cops seemed to have taken it very seriously, well,
19:53
Speaker 1: extremely seriously, because the next day they arrested her. That's
19:58
Speaker 1: pretty serious for murder. Uh And about a year and
20:01
Speaker 1: a half later, a little short of that, she pled
20:03
Speaker 1: guilty but mentally ill. She was sentenced to seven to
20:07
Speaker 1: twenty UM. And then Rothstein, on for his part, eventually
20:14
Speaker 1: died of cancer in two thousand four. Right, and so
20:17
Speaker 1: you said that he had considered killing himself and even
20:20
Speaker 1: wrote a suicide note. Right, Yeah, there's something very very
20:23
Speaker 1: odd on Bill Rothstein's suicide note. And again he didn't
20:27
Speaker 1: kill himself. He died of cancer. But he was able
20:29
Speaker 1: to actually show the cops where as suicide note was,
20:32
Speaker 1: and they read it, and the first line of it,
20:34
Speaker 1: from what I understand, was this has nothing to do
20:38
Speaker 1: with the collar bomb heist or the Brian Wells murder. Yeah,
20:43
Speaker 1: that that's a it's a weird thing to put if
20:47
Speaker 1: you had nothing to do with that, you know, right,
20:51
Speaker 1: that's just a very odd thing to do. It's like
20:53
Speaker 1: when the cops come in and you go, there's nothing
20:55
Speaker 1: under the bed, don't don't there's no reason to look there, right,
20:58
Speaker 1: they said, we just fun to make sure your fire
21:00
Speaker 1: alarm is working part of a community service. Cool, but
21:04
Speaker 1: the bed's fine. Right. So that is a very weird
21:08
Speaker 1: thing to say, and that definitely piqued the interests of
21:10
Speaker 1: the cops. But like you said, the cops convicted or
21:13
Speaker 1: the state convicted Marjorie deal Armstrong of the murder of
21:19
Speaker 1: um James Roden or Jim Roden. Right, she's already in prison,
21:24
Speaker 1: and when she's in prison, somehow this is what I'm
21:28
Speaker 1: unclear on, somehow it comes up or she starts talking
21:33
Speaker 1: or something like that, that Jim Roden's death very much
21:38
Speaker 1: had to do with the Wells case, with Brian Wells murder,
21:41
Speaker 1: this collar bomb heist, and that she knows a lot
21:46
Speaker 1: about it, and if they'll transfer her to a minimum
21:49
Speaker 1: security prison close to Erie, she'll she'll start talking Yeah,
21:53
Speaker 1: she has for the old Hannibal electric treatment. So is
21:56
Speaker 1: that how it came up, like she approached them, because
21:58
Speaker 1: I'm I'm unclear on that. I mean, I think so
22:01
Speaker 1: this is in the Wired article it said that, um,
22:07
Speaker 1: that there was a phone call from a state cop
22:10
Speaker 1: who had just met with her about something unrelated, like
22:13
Speaker 1: a different homicide, and she just and and it kind
22:17
Speaker 1: of makes sense though now actually when we as we
22:19
Speaker 1: will learn, Um, she talked a lot, Yeah, a lot,
22:24
Speaker 1: So it doesn't surprise me that another cop was just
22:27
Speaker 1: meeting with her about something unrelated. She's like, by the way,
22:31
Speaker 1: that whole collar bomb thing, I got all the skinny
22:34
Speaker 1: on that, right, So there's a couple of things going
22:36
Speaker 1: on here. By then, Um, by the time she calls
22:40
Speaker 1: the cops, the cops have already spoken apparently with several
22:43
Speaker 1: informants that have shared cells with her or spent time
22:47
Speaker 1: with her in jail already, Um, who are saying like, uh,
22:50
Speaker 1: this lady is the mastermind of that collar bomb heist
22:54
Speaker 1: that's making you guys look bad. Yeah, And eventually, you know,
22:58
Speaker 1: when they met with her about this, she she admitted
23:02
Speaker 1: that she was involved, but um, well she didn't met
23:06
Speaker 1: she was involved in the plot, but she said, I
23:08
Speaker 1: knew about it. I gave him. I gave him those
23:11
Speaker 1: two kitchen timers, and I was really close by when
23:14
Speaker 1: it happened. Uh. And by the way, the guy who
23:18
Speaker 1: blew up with the collar bomb, Mr Wells, he was
23:21
Speaker 1: actually in on it too, And Rothstein headed the whole
23:25
Speaker 1: thing up, right. But for her deal Armstrong, she said,
23:28
Speaker 1: but I had nothing to do with it, even though
23:30
Speaker 1: I had all these other little things to do with it.
23:32
Speaker 1: I never met Brian Wells. I didn't know Brian Wells.
23:35
Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with his death aside from
23:37
Speaker 1: supplying the kitchen timers. Um, and know all about it
23:41
Speaker 1: right exactly. Um. So, now it's just getting weird, right,
23:45
Speaker 1: because there's the Jim Rodent murder, who she says that
23:49
Speaker 1: she killed because he was abusing her, who Rothstein said
23:52
Speaker 1: she killed over a dispute with money, but is now
23:56
Speaker 1: she's saying is tied to the Wells case, and which
24:01
Speaker 1: she knows a lot about but really nothing about and
24:04
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with. So the cops are like, well,
24:08
Speaker 1: let's just get this lated talk all we can, And
24:11
Speaker 1: one of the things they got out of her was
24:13
Speaker 1: her she agreed to a tour around Eerie, showing them
24:17
Speaker 1: all these places where she had been, and these were
24:20
Speaker 1: all places that were related to the crime. Like I
24:23
Speaker 1: believe she said she'd been at the pizza delivery site.
24:27
Speaker 1: I think she said she's been within a mile of
24:29
Speaker 1: the of the bank when it was robbed. Like all
24:32
Speaker 1: of this stuff. She's just like, they just keep giving
24:35
Speaker 1: her this rope and she's just wrapping it around her
24:37
Speaker 1: neck again and again and again, and then finally chuck
24:40
Speaker 1: at the end of this car ride, after she's been
24:43
Speaker 1: interviewing with the cops multiple times, giving him tons of info.
24:48
Speaker 1: What does she say? She asked for immunity at this
24:51
Speaker 1: point after she hit basically completely incriminated herself. Uh. And
24:58
Speaker 1: previous to all this, a lot more happened. There were
25:01
Speaker 1: four different informants who had come forward and said that
25:05
Speaker 1: this lady has been talking about this for a while,
25:07
Speaker 1: she very much had everything to do with it. And
25:10
Speaker 1: then a couple of months after she had started talking
25:13
Speaker 1: to the Feds, another big break came. This witness came
25:16
Speaker 1: forward and said, Hey, there's this crack dealer named Kenny Barnes.
25:22
Speaker 1: That is a correc dealer's name Kenneth Barnes, and he
25:26
Speaker 1: was involved. Uh, they used to go fishing together, Armstrong,
25:29
Speaker 1: Deal Armstrong and Barnes, and she sang like a canary
25:34
Speaker 1: to him basically, and said, here's what she did. She
25:38
Speaker 1: her brother in law put him in touch with Barnes
25:41
Speaker 1: while he was already in jail on unrelated art charges basically.
25:47
Speaker 1: And so Barnes was already in prison, said hey, I
25:49
Speaker 1: think I can shorten my time. So I'm gonna try
25:52
Speaker 1: and get a reduced sentence at least by spilling the
25:55
Speaker 1: beans on Deal Armstrong. Right. And Barnes brother in law
25:58
Speaker 1: was who turned him into the cops. So Barnes is like,
26:03
Speaker 1: I'm already I'm in jail for selling crack. That's way
26:06
Speaker 1: different from being you know, very much involved in this
26:09
Speaker 1: collar bomb heist. Um. So he said, okay, I'll tell
26:13
Speaker 1: you guys everything you want to know. I'll be your
26:15
Speaker 1: star witness. Um, just reduce my sentence in the for
26:18
Speaker 1: my involvement in this. And he started talking. When he
26:23
Speaker 1: started talking, it was at Marjorie Deal Armstrong's um trial,
26:30
Speaker 1: which was a pretty spectacular trial from all accounts. Yeah,
26:34
Speaker 1: and and before the trial even he told his story
26:37
Speaker 1: was is that she wanted me to kill her father.
26:40
Speaker 1: He was spending what would end up being her inheritance,
26:44
Speaker 1: she felt, and so she wanted him dead. And so
26:48
Speaker 1: she was doing this collar bomb heist to raise money
26:53
Speaker 1: to pay me to kill her dad, which I mean, like,
26:57
Speaker 1: that's just the biggest face palm I've ever heard of.
27:00
Speaker 1: Yeah for a real So, okay, we'll start Marjorie Deal
27:04
Speaker 1: Armstrong's trial. Um, after we take a break, how about
27:08
Speaker 1: that man? That sounds good? Okay, okay, chuck. So, before
27:37
Speaker 1: Marjorie Deal Armstrong goes to trial, and remember, she's already
27:39
Speaker 1: in prison for the murder of Jim roden Right, shooting
27:42
Speaker 1: him in the back with a twelve gage shotgun. Um,
27:47
Speaker 1: Bill Rothstein is dead. I want to call him a
27:49
Speaker 1: Rothstein so Ace Rothstein, so bad. But Bill Rothstein is dead.
27:53
Speaker 1: He died of limp foma a couple of years before.
27:57
Speaker 1: And by the time Marjorie Deal Armstrong is is brought
28:01
Speaker 1: to trial for her involvement as the mastermind of the
28:05
Speaker 1: collar bomb plot, they have to, um, they have to
28:10
Speaker 1: verify that she's actually mentally competent to stand trial. And
28:14
Speaker 1: that's kind of touchy because remember when she she was
28:19
Speaker 1: charged with killing her boyfriend back in I think six
28:24
Speaker 1: she was She was deemed incompetent seven times by psychiatrists
28:30
Speaker 1: before the judge finally said, I'm I'm throwing all that
28:34
Speaker 1: out and deciding that she is competent. We're going to
28:36
Speaker 1: go ahead with the trial. They also found like four
28:39
Speaker 1: hundred pounds of butter and seven hundred pounds of cheese
28:43
Speaker 1: in her um in her house when they were investigating
28:47
Speaker 1: that particular murder. And in in between and the time
28:51
Speaker 1: she was tried in the collar bomb heist, she had
28:54
Speaker 1: been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, So there it was actually
28:59
Speaker 1: kind of question of well, whether she was mentally competent
29:01
Speaker 1: to see and trial um. And right as they were
29:04
Speaker 1: about to start the proceedings, I think the judge rule
29:08
Speaker 1: that she was competent to sand trial. Um. She was
29:10
Speaker 1: diagnosed with cancer herself, that's right. So they waited for
29:15
Speaker 1: the cancer diagnosis or prognosis, and the cancer doctor came
29:20
Speaker 1: back and said three to seven years, and the prosecutors said,
29:24
Speaker 1: giddy up, that's right. So previous to this, she she
29:28
Speaker 1: had gotten the indictment. But in that indictment it's very
29:30
Speaker 1: important that she was not I mean, granted she was
29:34
Speaker 1: the only one technically indicted, but they in the indictment
29:37
Speaker 1: it said that Rothstein was definitely a conspirator and Wells,
29:42
Speaker 1: the man who was who was the victim, supposedly he
29:45
Speaker 1: was definitely involved in this thing from the beginning. Yeah,
29:48
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, as a very important thing that that
29:51
Speaker 1: showed up in this indictment. Yeah, they said he agreed
29:54
Speaker 1: to rob this bank, he thought it was a fake bomb,
29:57
Speaker 1: and uh, he was told the scavenger hunt was a
30:00
Speaker 1: ruse to full the cops and if and when he
30:03
Speaker 1: did get caught, he could say, you know, I was
30:06
Speaker 1: just following orders basically what he did, right, And so
30:08
Speaker 1: Brian Well's family did not like this at all. Apparently
30:12
Speaker 1: during the the the press conference where the d A.
30:16
Speaker 1: Evere County is announcing this, you know, this case case
30:20
Speaker 1: is closed. This is the indictment that they have, Um
30:23
Speaker 1: the Wells, some of Brian Well's sisters were shouting liar
30:26
Speaker 1: at her. They did not take the idea that their
30:29
Speaker 1: brother was an accomplice in this at all, Um very well. Yeah,
30:33
Speaker 1: I mean there was a lot of uh, there's a
30:36
Speaker 1: lot of back and forth about whether Wells was in
30:40
Speaker 1: on the thing from the beginning, or whether or not
30:43
Speaker 1: he was in from the beginning and then at one
30:46
Speaker 1: point wanted out and was forced to do this, or
30:49
Speaker 1: whether he was forced from the beginning. Everyone's telling a
30:51
Speaker 1: different story. Uh. And you know, basically the trial is
30:55
Speaker 1: where we will learn, you know, if all that is true,
30:58
Speaker 1: what really happened. So, um, Marjorie deal Armstrong's lawyers said,
31:03
Speaker 1: you know, to heck with with caution, let's put you
31:08
Speaker 1: on the stand. Okay, you've already incriminated yourself multiple times.
31:13
Speaker 1: Why not do it in open court too? And um,
31:17
Speaker 1: she apparently was quite a She put on quite a
31:21
Speaker 1: performance on the on the stand over like two days,
31:24
Speaker 1: I think five and a half hours of testimony. Um,
31:27
Speaker 1: she yelled, she cried, She berated the prosecutor and her
31:32
Speaker 1: own lawyer. Uh. She when she did mention Brian Well,
31:35
Speaker 1: she said, I've never met the guy. I learned of
31:37
Speaker 1: his death when everybody else did on the TV news.
31:41
Speaker 1: And she she stuck with her story though that she
31:45
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with this. She knew a little
31:47
Speaker 1: bit about it. She knew the the conspirators. The real
31:51
Speaker 1: mastermind was Bill Rothstein, and it wasn't her. That's what
31:56
Speaker 1: she maintained though throughout the trial and even after word.
32:00
Speaker 1: That's right. But before she took the stand a few
32:03
Speaker 1: days earlier is when they trotted out Kin Barnes and
32:07
Speaker 1: he took the stand, and he said he had you know,
32:11
Speaker 1: by the time she took the stand, he had given
32:12
Speaker 1: a different account of the story then she would later do.
32:17
Speaker 1: So he got up there and said she was behind
32:20
Speaker 1: all this. She was the mastermind. Rostein was involved. She
32:25
Speaker 1: just recruited him. Basically, she recruited Wells because Wells needed money.
32:30
Speaker 1: And here's where the where the prostitutes come into play.
32:33
Speaker 1: Apparently Wells had a relationship with the prostitute who was
32:37
Speaker 1: also a crack addict, so he would buy crack to
32:40
Speaker 1: give her um, presumably as trade for sex. He ended
32:46
Speaker 1: up falling into debt with these crack dealers and needed money,
32:49
Speaker 1: and so basically the plot of Boulan rouge uh and
32:54
Speaker 1: he contends um Barnes did that that up until the
32:59
Speaker 1: day of the time, Wells was thought this whole thing
33:03
Speaker 1: was fake, realized that it was a double cross. It
33:06
Speaker 1: was a real bomb, and he tried to run away
33:08
Speaker 1: and was tackled and they put a gun to his
33:11
Speaker 1: head and locked him into this device. So imagine this choke.
33:14
Speaker 1: Imagine being Brian Wells and you're agreeing to to put
33:19
Speaker 1: on what you are presuming is a fake caller bomb
33:24
Speaker 1: to go carry out a real bank robbery because you
33:27
Speaker 1: need money, because you're indebted to crack dealers, because you
33:30
Speaker 1: borrowed from crack from them to give to your girlfriend,
33:33
Speaker 1: who's a prostitute who you have to give crack two
33:36
Speaker 1: to be with. And then you find out on the
33:39
Speaker 1: day of that this is a real bomb and they're
33:43
Speaker 1: putting it on you, whether you like it or not.
33:46
Speaker 1: What a horrible what a horrible turn of events for
33:50
Speaker 1: this poor guy. I mean, that's just so sad, no
33:53
Speaker 1: matter how you slice it. And then if you take
33:55
Speaker 1: his family's uh, if you take his family's opinion that
33:58
Speaker 1: he was innocent, he really was um delivering pizzas and
34:03
Speaker 1: was accosted and had nothing to do with any of this,
34:06
Speaker 1: which I take with a pretty big grain AsSalt. I mean,
34:09
Speaker 1: that's just as bad. But it's bad either way, whether
34:12
Speaker 1: he was an accomplice at one point or not. It's
34:15
Speaker 1: it's very it's super sad. There's a very sad thread
34:18
Speaker 1: that's running through this story in the form of Brian Wells,
34:21
Speaker 1: you know. Well, yeah, and on the final day of
34:24
Speaker 1: her trial, at the very very end of her taking
34:26
Speaker 1: the stand, is when she finally said that she didn't
34:29
Speaker 1: know him, never met him, and the first time she
34:32
Speaker 1: had ever laid eyes on him was on the news
34:34
Speaker 1: that day. Right. Basically, he and Marjorie deal Armstrong are fishing, right,
34:40
Speaker 1: they're fishing buddies that she he's somebody that she would
34:43
Speaker 1: turn to, and she's finding out that her father is
34:46
Speaker 1: blowing through her inheritance and she wants to put a
34:49
Speaker 1: stop to it, and so he she approaches Barnes to
34:52
Speaker 1: get him to kill her father. But to get that
34:55
Speaker 1: two K two that he says he will kill her
34:59
Speaker 1: father for, she's got to rob a bank. So she
35:01
Speaker 1: turns to her friend Bill Rothstein to come up with
35:04
Speaker 1: this collar bomb to put it on this other person,
35:06
Speaker 1: Brian Wells, who's going to carry this out. You know,
35:09
Speaker 1: by the way, we're also going to come up with
35:11
Speaker 1: a scavenger hunt to either throw the cops off or
35:14
Speaker 1: to actually make Brian Wells feel more comfortable, give him
35:16
Speaker 1: some sort of cover in case he is caught. And
35:20
Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna go with go team and Marjorie
35:23
Speaker 1: deal arms trunk. So that's preposterous that that wasn't me.
35:26
Speaker 1: Kenneth Barnes said, that's that's exactly what happened. And then
35:30
Speaker 1: Bill Rothstein wasn't alive to to contradict any of it.
35:34
Speaker 1: That's right. So she's sentenced, right, she's convicted as the
35:38
Speaker 1: mastermind of this pot. Yeah. The jury took about eleven
35:41
Speaker 1: hours and she was convicted of armed, armed bank robbery, conspiracy,
35:47
Speaker 1: and using a destructive device in a crime of violence.
35:51
Speaker 1: That's a big one. I'll bet a bet that carries
35:53
Speaker 1: a hefty sentence with it. Yeah, and she would she
35:57
Speaker 1: would die in prison, just like her prognosis said she
36:00
Speaker 1: and I think she lasted a few years now. They
36:02
Speaker 1: gave her three to seven years and she lasted seven. Yeah,
36:05
Speaker 1: so she finally passed away, and you know, that's kind
36:09
Speaker 1: of the end of the story. Even though there's a
36:12
Speaker 1: retired FBI investigator named Jim Fisher who said, I think
36:17
Speaker 1: they got this all wrong. I think that Rothstein was
36:20
Speaker 1: the guy the whole time, and he makes a decently
36:23
Speaker 1: compelling case, but it's you know, everyone's dead now. Yeah,
36:27
Speaker 1: Jim Fisher has gone a little bit down the rabbit
36:29
Speaker 1: hole if you ask me. Yeah, I mean it's it's
36:32
Speaker 1: kind of hard to tell with literally everyone having died. Um,
36:37
Speaker 1: but for his money, he thinks it was Rothstein. Yeah,
36:40
Speaker 1: And so there's probably not many people who are familiar
36:44
Speaker 1: with the case who would say that it wasn't Rothstein
36:47
Speaker 1: who built the bomb. But what Jim Fishers saying is
36:50
Speaker 1: like Bill Rothstein was behind everything, and Marjorie deal Armstrong
36:57
Speaker 1: murdering Jim Roden was just like a gift that dropped
37:01
Speaker 1: in Bill Rothstein's lap that he could use to make
37:04
Speaker 1: all these puppets dance, including the cops, and that the
37:08
Speaker 1: whole point of it was to create this elaborate scheme,
37:13
Speaker 1: this elaborate crime that would puzzle people for for for
37:17
Speaker 1: years and years to come, which it's it's doing that,
37:20
Speaker 1: and that that was the point, and that Brian Wells
37:23
Speaker 1: was going to die one way or another, right because
37:25
Speaker 1: I think the FBI said they concluded the whole scavenger
37:28
Speaker 1: hunt was a hoax and that Brian Wells was never
37:31
Speaker 1: going to survive this, didn't they. Yeah, So so this
37:35
Speaker 1: is Jim Fisher's position. But like you said, now that
37:37
Speaker 1: everybody's dead. Really, the only question is you know just
37:40
Speaker 1: how how complicit was um Brian Wells is the is
37:45
Speaker 1: the last big question that's right. And then there's one
37:49
Speaker 1: other guy who seems to have got off scott free
37:51
Speaker 1: named Floyd Stockton. Did you look into him a little bit?
37:55
Speaker 1: So he's a guy who was there. He was he
37:58
Speaker 1: was there. He supposedly ended Rothstein the bomb to put
38:02
Speaker 1: around Brian Well's neck. He was staying with Rothstein as
38:06
Speaker 1: a buddy on his couch, fleeing a rape charge in Washington. Um,
38:11
Speaker 1: and somehow, for some reason he got immunity and was
38:16
Speaker 1: not indicted even though he was very much involved in this,
38:18
Speaker 1: and he got off scott free and Brian Wells families
38:22
Speaker 1: going nuts over the fact that this guy's out there
38:24
Speaker 1: walking free. That he was he was a part of this,
38:27
Speaker 1: this caper and he he didn't see a second inside
38:31
Speaker 1: of a jail. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there
38:34
Speaker 1: were more people involved. Demon So what do you think
38:36
Speaker 1: do you think Brian Wells was was complicit? And if so,
38:40
Speaker 1: how much? Oh? Man, I don't know. I mean, it
38:43
Speaker 1: sounds like I kind of believe the story that they
38:46
Speaker 1: were all in it together and he was probably double crossed.
38:50
Speaker 1: But this is just from reading about this thing many
38:54
Speaker 1: many years later. Do you think Marjorie deal Armstrong was
38:58
Speaker 1: the mastermind? I don't know. I don't know either. Maybe
39:03
Speaker 1: we'll never know, but we might, but probably not. Have
39:08
Speaker 1: you got anything else? I got nothing else? All right? Well,
39:11
Speaker 1: if you want to know more about the collar bomb case,
39:13
Speaker 1: you can type that word in the search bar your
39:16
Speaker 1: favorite search engine and it will likely bring up a
39:18
Speaker 1: very great article. I'm wired from Rich Shapiro. Read that
39:22
Speaker 1: start there. It's great, And since I said Rich Shapiro,
39:26
Speaker 1: it's side for the listener mail, I'm gonna go with
39:30
Speaker 1: one on emoji and John Adams. Hey guys enjoyed the
39:35
Speaker 1: recent podcast about the history of emojis and emoticons. Reminded
39:39
Speaker 1: me of a discovery I made in the diaries of
39:41
Speaker 1: John Adams that makes a historical figure who's sometimes described
39:45
Speaker 1: as a loof, seemed completely charming. When the future president
39:49
Speaker 1: was about twenty two years old, he made an entry
39:51
Speaker 1: in his diary uh in seventeen fifty six, saying, a
39:55
Speaker 1: cloudy morning about ten and he drew a little sunshine
40:00
Speaker 1: gout a warm day. He used a little line drawing
40:02
Speaker 1: in the sun that I always call an eighteenth century emoji. Uh.
40:07
Speaker 1: He likes a little creation so much he readsed it
40:09
Speaker 1: a month later in the same diary, A Misty Morning,
40:12
Speaker 1: Little sunshine breakout about noon. On the Massachusetts Historical Society website,
40:18
Speaker 1: the text of his letters and diaries is faithfully transcribed,
40:22
Speaker 1: but in the cases a In these cases, a parenthetical
40:25
Speaker 1: note tells readers that there are small drawings of the
40:28
Speaker 1: sun and advises them to refer to the scans of
40:31
Speaker 1: the handwritten page where you can actually see this. Um.
40:35
Speaker 1: Apparently he grew out of his habit, though, because his
40:37
Speaker 1: later diaries do not use the adorable little son. Keep
40:41
Speaker 1: up with great work. My wife and I host a
40:43
Speaker 1: local history podcast for Boston. It's tightly scripted. Oh man,
40:47
Speaker 1: he didn't tell me what it was. I would have
40:48
Speaker 1: totally shouted it out. Uh. I know, big, big missed
40:53
Speaker 1: opportunity there. Jake, one of these days will be confident
40:57
Speaker 1: enough to have an unscripted conversation like you guys to
41:00
Speaker 1: and that is from Jake Scan Yours. Okay, so everybody's
41:04
Speaker 1: look up Jake scan Yours Boston history podcast, and it
41:07
Speaker 1: will probably bring it up right, probably so thanks a lot, Jake,
41:11
Speaker 1: thanks for keeping up the good fight up there. That's
41:14
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Good story too. If you want to get
41:17
Speaker 1: in touch with us, like Jake did, tell us about
41:19
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