Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / AM S2 Ep 14: Turning Points

Transcript

AM S2 Ep 14: Turning Points · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: identity,
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  SPEAKER_01: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: despite all odds.
• 0:38
  In this episode,
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  Rose provides a refresher on the three aspects of maturation.
• 0:43
  We spend much time reinforcing the understanding that emotion
• 0:46
  is the engine that
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: drives us to mature,
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  SPEAKER_01: sometimes forcing us there even when we'd rather not go.
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  Unless we're too defended against vulnerability and the pivotal
• 0:55
  feelings we must be
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: able to tolerate if we're to grow up.
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  We talk about how sadness is on the way to joy and fulfillment
• 1:02
  and how all of these
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  SPEAKER_01: feelings are vulnerable.
• 1:05
  We also touch on the importance of getting our own attachment
• 1:07
  needs met by nesting
• 1:09
  ourselves in a relational hierarchy or by coming alongside
• 1:12
  ourselves with love and
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: grace.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
• 1:27
  You had said that this is going to be our last episode on this
• 1:32
  topic of vulnerability.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and with that in mind, I wanted to...
• 1:36
  open up with um just orient orienting us again to where we're
• 1:42
  at on this journey of
• 1:44
  exploring the you know season two of attachment matters just
• 1:51
  really digging in
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  deeper to this bigger picture model uh that dr newfeld has
• 1:58
  around what he calls the
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: attachment based developmental model
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: for the unfolding of human potential.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: So just really getting that bigger picture.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I'm excited because as we,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: move into our episode today,
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  SPEAKER_02: like you said,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: this is what I imagine to be sort of our,
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  SPEAKER_02: our final episode where we're laying out this construct of vulnerability.
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  SPEAKER_02: We're going to kind of go back to connecting it to maturation.
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  and um from there i hope we can do another q a you know one or
• 2:38
  two episodes and
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  then we're going to kind of come full circle so to speak back
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  to attachment which
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  is where we started our season one but i think this time you
• 2:50
  know in season one we
• 2:53
  really dove straight into attachment and then out of that
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  flowed our conversation
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  SPEAKER_02: about maturity
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  SPEAKER_02: So I was just reflecting on this this morning.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of cool for season two.
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  We started with maturity and we're going to come back around to
• 3:09
  really nest
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: attachment within that construct.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: of the spontaneous unfolding of our potential as human beings.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of cool.
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  SPEAKER_02: We're kind of taking two different paths in this material,
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  SPEAKER_02: approaching it from different directions.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I hope through that,
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know, greater insight, greater connection will flow.
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  You know,
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  NUFAD always talks about it,
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  like,
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  you know,
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  laying out these maps.
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  And for that big picture model,
• 3:52
  you know,
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  there's like one layer of the map is maturation.
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  A second layer of the map is now what we're looking at with
• 3:59
  vulnerability.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: And the third layer is that attachment map.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 4:05
  it's nice to dedicate time to each and of course we're always
• 4:08
  going to be making
• 4:09
  connections between them because we're already quite familiar
• 4:12
  with a lot of this
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  from our past conversations but just know we will also kind of
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  come back around to
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  just kind of looking at attachment you know and now being able
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  to draw some of
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: those connections more clearly to these other layers of those maps
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just tell you that for as long as I can remember, I've loved maps.
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  SPEAKER_01: I love maps.
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  SPEAKER_01: Often my dreams have to do with directions,
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  SPEAKER_01: like the cardinal directions,
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  SPEAKER_01: north,
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  SPEAKER_01: south,
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  SPEAKER_01: east,
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  SPEAKER_01: west,
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  SPEAKER_01: or even...
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  SPEAKER_01: left and right.
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  But I find myself these days really resisting GPS because it
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  doesn't give the whole picture.
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  And I find that really,
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  that is disconcerting to me to not have the lay of the land.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually keep these giant atlases in my car.
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  SPEAKER_01: So when my husband is driving,
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  SPEAKER_01: I have this map of the terrain,
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  SPEAKER_01: right,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the surrounding area,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I love to learn the names of the features,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the mountain ranges and the rivers and,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the features on the map and being able to locate myself in the terrain.
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  you know and orient myself i find that very comforting i'm
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  nodding back here with a
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  big smile on my face yes yeah me too i i couldn't that
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  resonates with me very much
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  SPEAKER_02: i too love maps and love orienting and so
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_02: and that's,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: as we start off today's episode,
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  SPEAKER_02: this is just this initial little setting.
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  SPEAKER_02: The stage is to remind all of our listeners where we are on that journey,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: that we,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: we're moving our way through that bigger picture of this attachment-based
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  SPEAKER_02: developmental model.
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  SPEAKER_02: Our first sessions of season two focused on maturation and
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: These more recent sessions have focused on vulnerability,
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  SPEAKER_02: and soon we'll be moving into the third factor,
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  SPEAKER_02: which is attachment,
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  SPEAKER_02: once again.
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  SPEAKER_02: And today's session, what I hope to do is to parse out
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  even more give more richness you know to this
• 6:56
  interconnectedness of maturation and
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  vulnerability we really started in on that last episode but i'm
• 7:03
  hoping we can
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  SPEAKER_02: devote the entire episode to that this time yeah i think this is
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Vital information to connect vulnerability to maturity,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I do think we are so defended against vulnerability.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And being able to locate ourselves,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and our children in the process,
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  SPEAKER_01: right,
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  SPEAKER_01: in the map,
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  SPEAKER_01: can be so beneficial.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  and comforting i think like i was just explaining it's
• 7:41
  comforting to know where you
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  are and where you're going yes yes and drawing out this map
• 7:50
  analogy even more um
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  you know if we we do think of it as like a journey or a a long
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  journey you know
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  SPEAKER_02: that this is really the long haul
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  SPEAKER_02: When we take this developmental approach and we gain these insights,
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  the invitation we receive is to go beyond the immediate and to
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  understand that this
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  SPEAKER_02: is a long-term approach.
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  unfolding this is a long-term walking that maze or or you know
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  mapping out you know
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  our direction you know um so the story is not over you know the
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  story is just
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  beginning well and i would say too it's the hero's journey
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  that's what maturation
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  SPEAKER_01: is mythically
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  SPEAKER_01: We are all on our hero's journey to maturity or wisdom,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is self-knowledge and knowing and loving our whole selves.
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  And I think that that's an awful lot what maturity looks like
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  and how we feel
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  SPEAKER_01: secure in ourselves and therefore secure in the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it is really the work of a lifetime.
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  SPEAKER_01: And maybe the purpose of a lifetime.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's how I see it.
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  SPEAKER_02: And being able to see that in our own stories,
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  SPEAKER_02: but also knowing that our children,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: their stories are for the long term too.
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  SPEAKER_02: And right now is not the end.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's where they are right now.
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  And just to remember that this is the long term,
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  willingness for the long term.
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  And what heroic qualities will that ask of us as those who are
• 10:18
  accompanying them?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:21
  on their journey exactly yeah yeah absolutely thank you for
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  that so as we dive into
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  this exploration of the connections between vulnerability and
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  maturation let's just
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  kind of do a little refresher on the three aspects of
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  maturation if we remember
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  SPEAKER_02: that kind of two-dimensional triangle
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  SPEAKER_02: where we have the emergent process,
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  SPEAKER_02: which is really the unfolding of having a separate self,
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  SPEAKER_02: being viable,
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  SPEAKER_02: being vital,
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  that energy that's like flowing towards exploration and growth
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  and responsibility
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  SPEAKER_02: and just that whole emergent process is one side of that.
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  adaptation or the adaptive process is a second side of that and
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  again that's where
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  SPEAKER_02: we must encounter futility
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  the visceral emotion landing in us that when we come up against
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  something that
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  SPEAKER_02: isn't working,
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  SPEAKER_02: that we cannot change,
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  SPEAKER_02: and having our tears,
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  SPEAKER_02: feeling disappointment,
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  SPEAKER_02: feeling sadness,
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  SPEAKER_02: and this being such a critical process for our
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: the development of our brains to find workarounds,
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  SPEAKER_02: to problem solve,
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  to learn lessons that we must have kind of that deep sadness in
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  order to also feel
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  SPEAKER_02: joy and happiness.
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  SPEAKER_02: We're going to talk a lot about that today.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then, so that being the adaptive process.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then that third side of that,
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  SPEAKER_02: that triangle of maturation being the integrative process or this
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  SPEAKER_02: development of the ability to feel conflicting emotions,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: having on the one hand and the other hand,
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  SPEAKER_02: which,
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  SPEAKER_02: whether it sounds interesting or contradictory,
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  SPEAKER_02: this is what Neufeld says,
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  SPEAKER_02: is this idea of being able to be a social being.
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  And what is meant by that is that if we are able to hold two
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  things at the same
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  SPEAKER_02: time,
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  SPEAKER_02: whether it's two emotions,
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  SPEAKER_02: two perspectives,
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  SPEAKER_02: two conflicting thoughts,
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  SPEAKER_02: that is the process by which
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: we are able to maintain integrity,
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  SPEAKER_02: our own sense of selfhood,
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  SPEAKER_02: while also existing in relationship to another.
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  So this idea of both integrity and diplomacy,
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  which I think for our audience is just such a huge
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  area of dissonance that is required to navigate the experiences
• 13:18
  that parents are
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: going through with having a child who identifies as transgender.
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  Just holding on to that sense of self while also nurturing the
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  continuance of a
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  relationship with a child who may have come into a very
• 13:33
  different perspective or
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: belief system
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  SPEAKER_02: How do you hold both at the same time?
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  So that's that integrative process that is the third side of
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  that triangle of
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: maturation,
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  SPEAKER_02: those three different aspects of maturation.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think you used that word dissonance maybe
• 14:07
  with a little different connotation than I think a lot of
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  people apply to that word.
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  And what I'm hearing you saying is that it is indicative of
• 14:22
  maturity to be able to
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: hold that dissonance.
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  SPEAKER_02: Conflicting thoughts and emotions.
• 14:27
  Conflict conflict that you are going to have on the one hand
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  and on the other hand.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And specifically in this situation,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: we're talking literally about worldviews,
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  your worldview conflicting with your child's worldview and
• 14:47
  being able to tolerate
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: that so that you can be present.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: So you can attain diplomacy without losing your sense of self,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: without losing your own integrity.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, boy, Rose.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can confirm that.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: that parents are grappling here.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is hard.
• 15:10
  And I think what you speak to so often is that this is the
• 15:17
  engine of maturity and
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: that's where we're going with this idea of vulnerability.
• 15:23
  that you know this kind of for me it kind of brings a lot full
• 15:27
  circle from even our
• 15:28
  season one where we started talking about attachment we really
• 15:31
  moved into maturity
• 15:33
  and there were so many questions of like but how does one
• 15:36
  mature is it will can we
• 15:38
  just force our will to make ourselves grow up like how but this
• 15:42
  is a prime this is
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: like a very poignant example of how the engine of maturity works
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because parents who are forced into this conflict,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
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  SPEAKER_02: if we can rise to it,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: it's like we're being forged in this fire.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: That is what's... I call this the crucible often.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's what's growing us up, whether we like it or not.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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  yes yes yes and it's uh oh it's painful that's that's why it's
• 16:28
  called a crucible
• 16:31
  it's because of the pain that it creates for us and i'm going
• 16:35
  to bring in a union
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: quote here idea you know jung said
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Most of life's problems are unsolvable.
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  Our task,
• 16:45
  when that's the case,
• 16:46
  is to grow bigger than,
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  to get bigger than the problem.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I do see this often.
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  I see parents grappling with the black and white because I
• 16:58
  think that's why
• 16:58
  dissonance gets the connotation it does is because it is so
• 17:02
  painful and because our
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: psyche is going to want to suppress one in favor of the other.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we see our children doing that,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:14
  and us being paying the price of that because they're cutting
• 17:21
  us out as they are
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: doing that calculation,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: that unconscious calculation.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: calculation, I think.
• 17:29
  And I think it's so important for us to recognize that we are
• 17:32
  doing the same when
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  we are putting this or viewing this through this black and
• 17:37
  white lens of it's this
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: way or it's this way.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I need to make it this way because this was wrong.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe this is getting a little too meta, but I also want to say
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  It could be that holding on to your own integrity is to see
• 18:01
  this question as black and white.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: That could be part of you holding on to your integrity.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: But how can you do that and still maintain diplomacy with your child?
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  SPEAKER_02: Because I will say to you, that is what my parents are living.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: They are living that
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  SPEAKER_02: They have not changed what they feel is right.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: They have not given up their faith,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: their Catholic faith,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: but they have been able to maintain a relationship with me,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: my spouse,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: and their grandchildren.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: So they do both.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: They do both.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I just, I guess I have to say that's a testament.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I will say it's possible.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's not easy.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: But it's possible.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have worked with hundreds of moms at this point.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say that,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 19:01
  that is where the relationship feels strongest and healthiest
• 19:06
  is when the parents
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: can do this.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maintain diplomacy,
• 19:11
  even if they disagree at a foundational level with what their
• 19:16
  child is doing.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, the dissonance is too threatening.
• 19:28
  And they will feel the need to do what they think is in their
• 19:38
  power to do to get
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: their child to agree with them.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: To see it their way.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Which I think is fear-driven.
• 19:55
  Yeah,
• 19:55
  so let's kind of go into the emotional aspect because that's
• 19:57
  kind of where I want to go.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:00
  So let's just take that three-sided triangle and we kind of
• 20:03
  really dug deep into
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: that integrative aspect because it has,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 20:08
  all three sides have so much to do with the parent experience
• 20:12
  and what parents are
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: going through who are our listeners.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: just in that moment,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: I could really see the poignancy of that integrity and diplomacy,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: that integrative
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: experience and the engine that drives us to mature through it, okay?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: And what you're saying I think is a perfect segue into this concept of
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: vulnerability and how these,
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: how maturation and vulnerability are intertwined.
• 20:47
  So what Neufeld says,
• 20:50
  and he has a visual of this,
• 20:52
  he has like a car engine,
• 20:54
  like a motor.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, emotion is the engine of maturation.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Emotion,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: when you get to that,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: like when we were digging in last season,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: but what really makes us mature?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Emotion...
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: are kind of those inner springs.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Emotion is what moves us.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that is what he argues in his construct here.
• 21:30
  That is what moves a human being towards the spontaneous
• 21:35
  unfolding of maturation.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we talk about what are the emotions or the vulnerable feelings
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: that what we called last week these pivotal feelings,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: and how do they map onto these three sides of the triangle?
• 21:56
  So probably the easiest one to speak to might be the feeling of
• 22:01
  futility,
• 22:02
  right?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: that that maps very clearly onto the adaptive process.
• 22:09
  And we spoke last episode about how experiencing the futility
• 22:14
  landing in our hearts
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: of something not working for us that we care about,
• 22:21
  that we care about so deeply is just one of the most wounding
• 22:26
  experiences that a
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: human can have.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: This experience of loss, of lack, of hitting that brick wall.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it is a vulnerable emotion to feel futility and really have it land.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk now about emergence.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: So what could it be?
• 22:52
  What is the vulnerable feeling,
• 22:54
  the pivotal feeling that leads to someone being able to emerge?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: And develop a sense of self, okay?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: I have a cheat sheet, so I know the answer.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go for it.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: From the last episode, you know, it was fulfillment.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what Neufeld speaks about,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: and this is where I really want to dig in today,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: is this almost contradictory...
• 23:30
  reality that in order to feel full,
• 23:37
  we have to be able to experience emptiness.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Life is full of paradox.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so for that emergent energy to unfold,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: there has to be this sense of fulfillment,
• 23:57
  kind of that where we get into that cascading care idea that
• 23:59
  like my cup runneth
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: over and therefore I can fill your cup.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Your cup runneth over.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: And when that sense of, it's a term he uses like satiation.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: When those attachment needs have been filled up,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's when a child or myself as an adult, I can go out and be creative.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: I can have confidence.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: I can venture forth, as he says, into the world and discover...
• 24:32
  The ways that I am unique and how I can sustain my my own
• 24:36
  existence on my own,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: independently,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 24:42
  having that fulfillment is what allows that emergent energy to
• 24:46
  be released.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: What's been so much on my mind lately,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Rose,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: is just when you describe that,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: that description to me sounds like living.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: That is when we are living in the world.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's so alive.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's what fullness feels like.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: It feels alive.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: It feels alive.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what life wants from us, right?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that word fully, right?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's those two words together, live fully.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that comes from a place of fullness.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And part of getting to fullness is feeling the emptiness.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, you know, and we resist that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're defended against that emptiness, so.
• 25:50
  the story and so I and I think it's helpful to tell it just to
• 25:53
  give an idea at
• 25:54
  least for me it helps to hear see this visually you know
• 25:58
  playing out almost in a
• 26:00
  narrative he talks about when his fifth child and he laughs
• 26:06
  like it took me five
• 26:07
  children to figure this stuff out you know but like when he he
• 26:12
  lived a few blocks
• 26:13
  away from home working as a clinical psychologist and he would
• 26:17
  come home for lunch
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: and his
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: His two, three-year-old son at that time would just be waiting for him.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: He'd be waiting for him all morning,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: full of pursuit,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: full of wanting to get those attachment needs met,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: missing him.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Missing him.
• 26:33
  And so then when he would approach down the sidewalk and his
• 26:36
  son could hear his
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: footsteps,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: he would just come bolting out of the house like,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: daddy,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: daddy,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: daddy.
• 26:41
  And it's funny to imagine this,
• 26:44
  like he just is going to leap into the air.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so he's like, well, I have to be ready to catch him.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm anticipating this pursuit.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm anticipating this.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: I got to be...
• 26:53
  physically prepared even like how often as parents of young
• 26:55
  children we have to be
• 26:57
  physically alpha right yes it can be really intense sometimes
• 27:02
  and so um so he
• 27:04
  catches them and then it's just you know he talks about having
• 27:08
  to had learned that
• 27:09
  that prior to this fifth child when his son would be like i
• 27:14
  want to play with you
• 27:15
  and you get to be home now and you did you know that he would
• 27:19
  have to like tamp
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: down the expectations like
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I only have so much time and I actually can't play with you now.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: But the pursuit just gets more.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: It just gets more and more and more.
• 27:31
  Versus shifting into this approach of like,
• 27:34
  yes,
• 27:35
  I've got so many hugs for you.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I've missed you.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to play with you.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: That energy of providing more.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: then is pursued in that seeking.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: And once all of that provision is there,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: the warmth,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: the hugs,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: the delight,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: the,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: the meeting it and going beyond it,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: his son would be like,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: get away from me.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm okay.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Enough, enough hugs.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so once those say, you know, once that
• 28:06
  more um love more warmth more play you know has been provided
• 28:12
  than what the sun was
• 28:13
  so desperately seeking you know once he's reached that place of
• 28:17
  fulfillment the sun
• 28:19
  satiation can move into turning over the rocks in the garden
• 28:24
  and searching for bugs
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: then that's when the emergent energy
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know, the attachment needs have been met.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so now there's a shift where the emergent energy can unfold.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where we get to that crux of those feelings of fulfillment.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: What that means in this story is that
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: The attachment needs have been fulfilled.
• 28:52
  This child felt fulfillment,
• 28:57
  that seeking,
• 28:58
  that love,
• 29:00
  that warmth was met and surpassed.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And therefore, he was free.
• 29:09
  That energy was freed up from pursuit of attachment in order
• 29:15
  that he could grow,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: in order that that self can be expressed through emergence.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: But we watched the trajectory of the story.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: There was first the emptiness.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: The entire morning spent waiting, missing,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: That was a felt missing, right?
• 29:39
  He felt it and then it was fulfilled and the emergent energy
• 29:45
  could unfold.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's profound.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm having lots of thoughts.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Just wow.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how few of us understand this.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: how few of us got this,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: and how many of us are still seeking that sense of fulfillment,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: but experiencing the emptiness and how,
• 30:23
  and also what's coming to mind is how this can get turned on
• 30:26
  our children,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: where we are now seeking that fulfillment from them.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's where the emptiness is being projected, potentially.
• 30:44
  Or we've put them in the role of they are the ones who need to
• 30:50
  provide the care to us.
• 30:52
  And maybe it's because we haven't had it from other adults or
• 31:00
  others who were supposed to
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: be fulfilling them, you know, be filling us up.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: going back to the story that you told,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: that that's what most of us received was,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: was that dad before the fifth child,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: The, you know, I've got other things to take care of.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I can't fill your needs right now.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've got,
• 31:33
  I've got real-world duties that need my attention,
• 31:37
  which is real,
• 31:39
  you know,
• 31:39
  and it's no wonder.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I can even put myself,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: honestly,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: back in that place of just not being present,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: with my little ones who were being playful and telling me things,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: and my mind was off somewhere else,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: and they could sense it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: They could sense it, you know.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the effort, effort it takes to overcome that and be present.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it took me,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 32:16
  almost into their adulthood to be able to provide that and
• 32:21
  still can struggle at
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: times.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And now I can see them doing it with me.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: The implications here.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: And what if we,
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: and you know,
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: we talk about this alpha piece,
• 32:42
  and because of how deeply embedded the behavioral model is in
• 32:49
  our culture,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: and this is no one's fault,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think when some of us,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: myself included,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: start to want to assert that alpha,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes it goes straight into kind of the demanding alpha.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: What if you,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: what if,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: maybe not instead,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: but what if we gave equal attention as moms,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: as dads,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: as parents listening to this,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: what if we gave equal attention to this fulfillment-driven alpha,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: to this alpha of warmth and
• 33:28
  And provision of attachment needs,
• 33:32
  you know,
• 33:33
  the senses,
• 33:35
  the sameness,
• 33:36
  the loyalty.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to go all into that again,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: in a few episodes,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: once we get back to that attachment conversation.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: But the warmth, the not saying, I don't have time right now.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in work mode.
• 33:49
  Just that movement into play mode,
• 33:53
  even if it's just for 10 minutes,
• 33:55
  right?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so what would that look like with an adult child?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Can you give an example?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: I know,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: I was just thinking of this because I feel like I have this,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: I experience this with my parents now.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the one that came up for me this morning before recording.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: I just, I'm like, how do my parents do this?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: I...
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: We have a family text chain.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my siblings are on it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: We have a couple different ones.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: But the one that's like the smaller one is just my brothers and I,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: and then my brother who's sick,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: his wife is on there too.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: And every time one of us sends something,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: either my dad or my mom or both are the first to respond.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:46
  there's just always a back and forth there's always a
• 34:51
  commentary and we'll play
• 34:53
  guessing games like um you know if something's going on with my
• 34:59
  sons and oh like my
• 34:59
  son's running cross-country okay everybody guess what was his
• 35:04
  time what place did
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: he come in you know
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's almost never a time when my mother or father does not guess.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's like no response that goes unanswered.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: from any of us,
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: when any of the adult children share something,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: they are there responding,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: engaging,
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: acknowledging,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: putting a heart,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: whatever it is.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: And this may seem very basic.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: But we don't always respond to each other as siblings.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Some of my brothers are less engaged, more engaged.
• 35:46
  But what holds it together,
• 35:49
  I feel,
• 35:51
  is that my parents are always,
• 35:55
  always engaged.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like the text thread is playful.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a lot of playfulness on that thread.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that that's always the case.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are family threads where it's where the dissonance is being
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: highlighted in the threads,
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: the different worldviews.
• 36:26
  And I think,
• 36:26
  you know,
• 36:27
  after,
• 36:28
  again,
• 36:28
  we're on the heels of the assassination.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:32
  And I have seen an uptick in fear in parents about their kids
• 36:37
  being radicalized.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so this has become a way,
• 36:44
  it's one of those teachable moments that they're trying to
• 36:46
  seize or use it as a way
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: to take the temperature on their child's radicalization.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: How far gone are you?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's amping up the fear.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Totally understandable.
• 37:04
  So then it's like if the family text chain is not the place for
• 37:10
  any of this at this
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: time...
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you're talking about the play,
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: not the place for...
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Attachment,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: all of it.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's not where this can happen at this time.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Can you take your child out to lunch?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Can you...
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: What if the child lives far away?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: The child lives far away and is not interested in spending time with you.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: just talking off the cuff here,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: but like,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: is part of it the first step then pulling back on demands?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's like, what is the thing
• 37:58
  that a small thing that you can do to shift a dynamic from what
• 38:09
  to what well can
• 38:10
  you be more specific situation yeah it would depend on the
• 38:15
  situation but if the
• 38:16
  child if the child's attachment is in reverse where they are
• 38:22
  defending against
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: attaching from you
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly you don't keep on applying coercion.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Step one, stop that if that is happening.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: And step two,
• 38:39
  start to think about what are small ways where you can start to
• 38:46
  create some warmth.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: In your approach to them, you can't do anything about theirs to you.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to take this back to the,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: to,
• 39:03
  to what we're talking about earlier in that maybe parents are
• 39:10
  feeling that
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: emptiness.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing is filling it for them,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: and it's,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: it,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: it,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: they're perceiving it as not getting relationship from their child.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's causing the emptiness.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know, and so they're feeling moved, right?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I would guess,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: they're in pursuit,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: because of the separation,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: as we've talked about before.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: That is traumatizing for parents, right?
• 39:45
  So now they're in pursuit of that because of these primal
• 39:48
  emotions that they are
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: experiencing because the child is pushing them away.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what I'm
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me if I'm off base here.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is what seems and kind of where I've come to on this.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it might seem like I'm coming out of left field with this.
• 40:07
  But I think it's important to find a relationship that provides
• 40:12
  that for you.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it might need to be a transcendent relationship.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is the power of having some sort of spiritual practice.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have something that fills that need for you,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: those attachment needs for you,
• 40:33
  so that you feel full and so that you can free your child of
• 40:42
  filling those needs
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: for you.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: so yes,
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a very great option or possibility if we're getting,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: especially if it can land emotionally.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so this brings me to another important aspect that he talks about.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: He talks about, so I think we can apply it here.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: He talks about, well, what if there's no fifth child?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: What if you're not that fifth child?
• 41:17
  What if your parents never figured it out and you didn't get
• 41:23
  that fulfillment?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: You just didn't get the fulfillment aspect.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: So what he talks about is that there's the back door.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: If these...
• 41:34
  if the satiation isn't there or wasn't there from that
• 41:37
  hierarchical attachment of
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: your grandparents,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: your parents,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: whoever it may have been throughout your life,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: it is the feeling of futility for the lack of fulfillment.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: That is the back door.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: to allowing that emergent energy to be relieved, like unfold.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: The back door.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't have the fulfillment,
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: but you can grieve the lack of it,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: of it,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: of the lack of fulfillment,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: you can open those tender places in your heart.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: You can still mature.
• 42:30
  grow into emergence from that place of grief and we're talking
• 42:39
  about the grief that
• 42:40
  takes you all the way down to the emptiness and really feeling
• 42:47
  the emptiness so
• 42:51
  there's yeah so there's the old grief potentially of never if
• 42:55
  you feel like you are
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: grieving the lack of fulfillment and
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: But then there's also the current grief,
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: which is the futility for what you cannot change with your child.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of tears to be had.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of tears to be had.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think in some ways that... Okay, this is helpful.
• 43:29
  Because I think it's maybe important to get clear on what
• 43:31
  you're grieving.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: That it's not necessarily a lack of relationship with your child,
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: but a lack of fullness in yourself.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think,
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: to go all the way down or to fully feel this grief,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: in some ways,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: parents feel like maybe they're giving up on having a relationship and
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: that to grieve it means, right?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like the relationship is off the table and that's what they're grieving.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: So to clarify, this is, that's really helpful clarification.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: So when I say what you're grieving,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: that's,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: it's feeling the futility of what's not working.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that happens when you still have a relationship.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's things that are not working.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not letting go of the relationship with your child.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now, will some parents have to have that kind of grief?
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 44:36
  But it doesn't have to be at that level to allow yourself to
• 44:41
  feel for the futility
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: to sink in of the aspects that are not working.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that could be anything from the trans identity itself.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can't change it.
• 44:59
  And or if they're defended against you and they're not leaning
• 45:06
  in for warmth,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: they're not depending,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: they're in reverse,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: that's futility.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's not working.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 45:19
  no matter what these,
• 45:21
  the scenario and the gradations,
• 45:26
  there is futility to experience.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much futility to experience.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Life is full of it.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: And really where I, you know, where, where,
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want us to land, so to speak, is understanding
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: And we could get to the third side of the maturation as well,
• 45:58
  though there's much more to talk about just with the emergence
• 46:02
  and adaptation
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: aspect of linking vulnerability to maturation.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: if we go to that integrative aspect as well,
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 46:15
  we can become defended against having conflicted feelings that
• 46:19
  can be vulnerable to
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: to have these conflicting feelings.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's kind of where you were going earlier,
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: where you're saying it's easier just to shut one down.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's easier to stay in one emotion.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's much harder to stay in the conflicting.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: That can feel much more vulnerable.
• 46:47
  So essentially where we're getting to is that whether it's the
• 46:53
  feeling of futility
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: for all that is not working,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: and or the feeling of,
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: fulfillment that,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: going back to that,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 47:13
  Loving someone,
• 47:15
  depending,
• 47:18
  surrendering to love and affection is vulnerable.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it will cause pain.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, to love is too.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Open yourself up to hurt.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of where we talked,
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: episodes ago when we first looked at,
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: futility and,
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: or actually,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: no.
• 47:48
  It was when we started talking about vulnerability when we had
• 47:50
  the sacred heart.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: If you love, you will be wounded.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 47:57
  So it's a similar thing here that allowing yourself to receive
• 48:05
  is also vulnerable.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because someone may not fulfill.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: You might not be wanted.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: You may have to face that emptiness or that rejection.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: The sadness there for not the lack.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: And if you feel fulfilled today, it could go away tomorrow.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the part that's so scary.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to mention something,
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: about this word satiation that stood out to me,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: which is so powerful.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in, in,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Neufeld talking about this concept,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: he was kind of going back to the etymology,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: like the etiology or etymology,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: like whatever it is,
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: the root of the word,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: satiation.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: Etymology.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: So this word sate in Latin, I guess, means turning point.
• 49:26
  But then he was also looking up the etymology of the word
• 49:29
  sadness,
• 49:30
  and it's also sate.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: So whether we're talking about satiation or sadness,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: they both have the same linguistic root,
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: which means turning point.
• 49:46
  Turning point.
• 49:48
  And I mean,
• 49:48
  yeah,
• 49:48
  I mean,
• 49:49
  just saying that out loud,
• 49:51
  considering our moment...
• 49:53
  With the Charlie Kirkassette,
• 49:54
  you know,
• 49:54
  it's just like,
• 49:55
  whoa,
• 49:55
  this is kind of,
• 49:56
  woo.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: But that is, it's this idea of where one thing is turned into another.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why, okay.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Are you going to connect sadness and joy here?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, what is coming up for you?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: You say what you're thinking, yeah.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because yes, I can, but I want to hear what you're thinking.
• 50:27
  And I'm thinking maybe of the adaptive side of the triangle and
• 50:33
  feeling the
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: futility and the sadness and how once that does land,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: That is the turning point.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: And what is on the other side of that?
• 50:46
  is that new energy there's there can be joy over there right
• 50:49
  there's creativity
• 50:51
  over there that is where the sadness turns into something that
• 50:53
  feels a lot better
• 50:54
  than sadness but it but sadness is on the way you know we have
• 51:00
  to move through that
• 51:00
  part to get to the things that feel better yeah and you can
• 51:05
  really see how that
• 51:06
  both emergence and adaptation both fulfillment and utility are
• 51:11
  so intertwined right
• 51:14
  so whether we're fulfilled by those attachment needs being met
• 51:18
  or we experience the
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: futility of the lack both free that emergent energy yeah and there is a
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: I just was going to say,
• 51:36
  Neufeld quotes this William Blake verse in talking about this
• 51:40
  where he says,
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: joy and woe are woven fine and clothing for the soul divine.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that joy and woe are woven fine and clothing for the soul divine.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: and clothing for the soul divine.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: So this idea of this tapestry of life,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: that if we have lost our ability to feel sad,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: we have also lost the ability to feel fulfillment.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: They're intertwined.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're woven together.
• 52:31
  I've got something else on my mind around that emptiness and
• 52:47
  loving and finding
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: that loving response.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: For our children,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: even when it's not being reciprocated,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: when their attachment is...
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: How do you say it?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: When their attachment is in reverse.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the work we do in the tapestry,
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: in the SMP coaching community,
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: is about self-discovery and loving ourselves.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so all of ourselves.
• 53:24
  And that when we're feeling this emptiness,
• 53:26
  how can we provide this love for ourselves?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And this is, I'm going to bring in another poem.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish I could read it.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have it right in front of me, but it's very short.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's Andrea Gibson.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, she calls it the wellness check.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it goes something like this.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: Am I focused on being loving or am I focused on who's not loving me?
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I love this.
• 54:05
  I'd love to map this over the seeker provider because that's
• 54:12
  what I hear in that.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so to be able to love
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: provide a loving response for our children from a,
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: when we're feeling empty,
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is another way,
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is to love ourselves.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: To that place of fulfillment,
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 54:37
  have that tenderness and grace for ourselves and love the parts
• 54:40
  of ourselves that
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: feel so wounded and nurture those parts.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a way to bring love into the picture instead of seeking.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, getting those attachment needs fulfilled.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 55:01
  you know adjusting that hierarchy i think that's what you were
• 55:05
  getting at too when
• 55:06
  like when you talk about the transcendent you know what's
• 55:09
  coming to me now is like
• 55:11
  nesting ourselves in a hierarchy so we can feel held so we can
• 55:15
  find rest yes and
• 55:18
  yes that's beautifully said yes seeking that hierarchical
• 55:23
  relationship from putting
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: our child in that role
• 55:26
  of bringing us to of holding us to help us feel rest it's like
• 55:32
  no let's let's get
• 55:33
  in right relationship so we have to find that that nesting in
• 55:38
  the hierarchy somehow
• 55:41
  whether it's our own selves accepting with love you know this
• 55:45
  like what you're
• 55:45
  talking about being able to find grace give ourselves grace or
• 55:49
  in ideally in
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: relationship
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: either to God or a personal...
• 55:57
  ideally a personal whether it's a personal god or another human
• 56:01
  being that we can
• 56:03
  feel we can depend on it we can find rest in the arms of you
• 56:09
  know so we aren't
• 56:12
  continuing to seek it from those who we are to be providing to
• 56:19
  that same thing too
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: yeah yeah i like the nested in the hierarchy
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's helpful, helpful to imagine.
• 56:30
  And I do think that there are also those who don't have that
• 56:37
  relationally,
• 56:38
  right?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's just not somebody in their lives that can provide that care.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that gets back to that, what he talks about, the emptiness.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: There is a backdoor to all of this, which is the grieving of the lack.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: The grieving of the lack.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: And this is interesting,
• 56:58
  and then I know we're kind of needing to maybe come to an end
• 57:05
  and not too long
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: here,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: but he talks about this tragedy,
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: okay?
• 57:15
  the tragedy that some of the children who need to be filled the
• 57:21
  most are the least
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: likely to be able to feel it.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think some of our listeners are going to,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: when we talk about attachment being in reverse,
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: some of you are going to have this experience of
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I keep on saying, I love you.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: I keep on trying to love my child, to have them feel my warmth too.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: All the things that I keep on saying, well, do this, do this.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, some of you out there are like, I have been, you know?
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: I have been, it's not working, okay?
• 58:03
  And so,
• 58:05
  you know,
• 58:06
  when a child is,
• 58:08
  no matter the age,
• 58:09
  is defended against vulnerability,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: When they cannot feel the emptiness,
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: when they cannot feel the sadness,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: they cannot feel the love,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: okay?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because he says,
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: just like futility needs to land,
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: we need to feel it,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: it needs to pierce our hearts.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: Love needs to land.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: And for a child who is defended, the defenses are stuck
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: They're defended against these vulnerable feelings.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: Love is not going to break through.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, imagine a heart of stone.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: Love is not going to penetrate.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the defenses.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: When the defenses get locked in, we...
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: do not feel these vulnerable emotions.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: We do not have feelings of fertility.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: We cannot feel feelings of fulfillment.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: We cannot feel inner conflict.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's all too vulnerable.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so maybe that's another step for parents listening to this.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel like you are pouring out your love and it's not working,
• 59:36
  consider the possibility that your child's defenses are,
• 59:41
  that your child has a defended heart.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's just towards you, and that is painful.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe it's in general.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's like,
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: having that insight,
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: then we get to put our attention towards softening those defenses.
• 1:00:06
  that's when we can direct our energy and our intention and or
• 1:00:13
  have to just feel the
• 1:00:15
  futility of that current reality that we may not be able to do
• 1:00:22
  anything about at
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: this time.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: But what he says, and this is what I wanted to make sure that we got to,
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_02: is that our brain is amazing, okay?
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: It can do two things incredibly well.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: It can move us through this spontaneous unfolding of maturation, okay?
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: It is designed to do that, to allow all of this to unfold.
• 1:01:03
  And it is also defined or designed to defend us against
• 1:01:10
  vulnerability and wounding
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: that is too much to bear.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: But if you imagine,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: imagine that the heart,
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: if we go back to the heart,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: when we started this conversation about vulnerability,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: that heart is that in the center,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: a drawn heart,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: not a human heart,
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: but like the image of a heart,
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: the symbol of a heart.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: And if we imagine like emergence flowing out of the heart,
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: adaptation flowing out of the heart,
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: the integrative,
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: that prefrontal cortex development flowing out of the heart,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: that it's feeling that is the motor for all this.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then we put a stone shell or armor around that heart.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_02: All of that unfolding is locked.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: It can't move.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: It can't unfold.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: And what we see, and this is this idea of the tip of the iceberg, okay?
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: In a situation with a child who has that
• 1:02:27
  defense is stuck maturity is not moving it's not unfolding
• 1:02:34
  because these vulnerable
• 1:02:35
  feelings are not being felt they're not being accessed above
• 1:02:42
  the water that tip of
• 1:02:43
  the iceberg is the learning difficulties the behavioral issues
• 1:02:49
  that's what we see
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: we see the symptoms of
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: What's deeply underneath it is stuck defenses.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: Not feeling these vulnerable emotions that are moving that maturation.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: So the maturation is stuck.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: Problem solving can't happen.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: All of these things we talked about.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: with the adaptive process.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can learn a lesson.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: I can overcome.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: I can move beyond.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: I can figure this out.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's all on pause, okay?
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's not working.
• 1:03:28
  And they're missing the pivotal feelings because they're
• 1:03:31
  defended against them.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: And underneath those defenses,
• 1:03:36
  is going to be experiences of wounding too much to bear or
• 1:03:41
  sensitivities being
• 1:03:43
  overwhelmed that has kicked in those defenses to protect from
• 1:03:49
  that experience.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I know that's a lot.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot, Rose.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_02: But that's where all of this...
• 1:04:06
  kind of comes together yep um and right now I am anticipating
• 1:04:19
  some mamas feeling
• 1:04:21
  some primal emotions based on that information and what they
• 1:04:26
  are seeing in their
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: families um
• 1:04:37
  So can we give them something as we're wrapping up this episode
• 1:04:44
  to comfort?
• 1:04:48
  And maybe even something to do if that's what they think
• 1:04:53
  they're experiencing.
• 1:04:56
  Or if what they see is a child who is defended against these
• 1:05:00
  pivotal feelings and
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: that are too vulnerable to bear.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_02: I often feel like you're better at that than I am.
• 1:05:12
  What comes to mind for you first,
• 1:05:18
  and then I can maybe,
• 1:05:19
  it will help me to
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: one thing that stood out to me as you were describing that,
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: and I guess I would extend it beyond the brain.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: Our systems are designed for this.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just our brain, right?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's our whole body is involved in this process.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: And things are moving or they're not moving.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: But they are designed to move.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're designed to move.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it is possible to soften defenses.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that comes from faith in the system.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: We have to trust in the design so that we can relax, so we can soften.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because our kids cannot soften if we are in fear and we are pushing.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: They will not soften it out.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: That will harden the shell, thicken the shell.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: And make it harder.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: So our first task might be to soften our own defenses.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: Agreed.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: We need to have faith and we need to discover what softens us.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe put our focus there.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: Give it a rest with the kid.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: Back off.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:06:47
  I love how,
• 1:06:48
  this is why I said,
• 1:06:48
  you talk first,
• 1:06:49
  because I love everything you just said.
• 1:06:55
  We go back to the beginning of this episode where we said,
• 1:06:57
  this is the long term.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it is not too late.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: If you are like,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_02: holy cow,
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: my kid has these behavioral issues,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: we've been approaching them from one way,
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_02: and now I'm considering the possibility that this is about...
• 1:07:17
  wounding too much to bear defense is getting locked in and it's
• 1:07:20
  now the symptoms
• 1:07:21
  that we've been seeing of that if you're and it may not even
• 1:07:26
  crystallize at this
• 1:07:27
  point you know clearly but even considering this possibility is
• 1:07:32
  terrifying very
• 1:07:33
  alarming but I like you said you know all is not lost it is
• 1:07:42
  never too late you are
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: forever alive
• 1:07:47
  for your child and so there is time and there's time for your
• 1:07:53
  child and your
• 1:07:56
  relationship and i agree wholeheartedly with the softening and
• 1:08:02
  and i agree
• 1:08:03
  wholeheartedly with the backing off from teaching lessons if
• 1:08:08
  that is something that
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_02: that any of you as listeners have been like
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know, we just assimilate it from the culture.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_02: We assimilate it from what the dominant expectation.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're swimming in the water like a goldfish in a fishbowl.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's hard if that is a piece of,
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:08:26
  your approach and you're thinking this defendedness may be
• 1:08:32
  underneath a child being
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_02: stuck,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: backing off from the lessons.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because they can't get it.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: They can't learn it.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_02: If they're stuck and defended, they can't.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like this concept of retreating into relationship for this time,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: both with yourself and your child.
• 1:08:58
  Can you move into,
• 1:09:01
  I'm going to come alongside,
• 1:09:03
  I'm going to come alongside my alarm.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to come alongside my grief.
• 1:09:09
  I'm going to come alongside the big emotions I'm having and
• 1:09:12
  just be with that for a
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_02: little while.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying retreat into relationship with yourself.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if you lay off the lesson aspect with your child,
• 1:09:24
  I think that's going to help you retreat into a more relational
• 1:09:29
  posture with your
• 1:09:30
  child as well while you're giving yourself this time to kind of
• 1:09:34
  process through
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: your own emotions.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to be a little careful there,
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: because I think we have a lot of moms in pursuit.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of moms in seeker mode.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to say it, right?
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: And can you recognize when you're experiencing that?
• 1:09:58
  If you are feeling desperate for a relationship with your
• 1:10:01
  child,
• 1:10:03
  that's seeker mode.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:08
  And if their relationship is in,
• 1:10:10
  or their attachment is in reverse,
• 1:10:12
  you're chasing them away.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Think of the magnet, right?
• 1:10:19
  When those polarities are,
• 1:10:21
  I still don't know how to say it,
• 1:10:22
  in reverse,
• 1:10:23
  right?
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: The more you go after that other magnet,
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: you just keep pushing it,
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: pushing it,
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: pushing it further away,
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so recognizing
• 1:10:40
  when that is happening and doing this retreat into relationship
• 1:10:44
  with yourself yeah
• 1:10:49
  because this is painful and scary and hard this is so hard and
• 1:10:57
  there are so many
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_01: things stacked against you that's the that's the world we live in yep yep
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_02: and it may be helpful,
• 1:11:09
  like if you are sending a text message to a child and they
• 1:11:14
  don't respond or they
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_02: respond negatively,
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: and you feel like I can just feel the viscerality of that message.
• 1:11:24
  pursuit and that alarm and part of maybe this retreating and
• 1:11:29
  coming alongside
• 1:11:31
  yourself is to start to tell yourself I am facing separation I
• 1:11:36
  this is what's
• 1:11:38
  happening to me right now I'm being moved to close the gap
• 1:11:46
  that's the pursuit I'm
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_02: being moved you know to find safety that's the alarm you know um
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it's okay.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is totally to be expected.
• 1:11:58
  But bringing that little bit of insight into what's going on
• 1:12:01
  for you and then...
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Locating yourself in the map.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then trying to come to rest or ease that pursuit,
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_02: that alarm,
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_02: that frustration in some other way.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_02: might help shift that dynamic a little bit.
• 1:12:25
  So we were talking about shifting and I was grasping at straws
• 1:12:28
  because I'm like,
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: I need a concrete example.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_02: You have so many.
• 1:12:32
  So I feel like hopefully where we're coming to is more relevant
• 1:12:38
  for what the moms
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_02: listening may be experiencing.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_01: support to do that might be really needed for mom.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you find that you are kind of chronically in this state,
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: getting some support,
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: whether that is through a religious faith,
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: a religious counselor from your faith,
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_01: or a well-vetted therapist or a coach,
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: somebody who can...
• 1:13:24
  help you to identify yourself in the map and to provide some of
• 1:13:28
  that alpha for you,
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: some of that care.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if this works or not,
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_02: but it takes me back to something that Dr.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Neufeld says about this idea of the lack of fulfillment,
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_02: how the lack of fulfillment and fulfillment go hand in hand.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_02: And he talks about it in the context of a marriage.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_02: In order to sustain a marriage,
• 1:13:58
  you have to grieve the lack because no marriage is going to
• 1:14:02
  provide everything you
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_02: need.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's not going to be perfect.
• 1:14:04
  There's always going to be something that goes wrong,
• 1:14:08
  you know,
• 1:14:09
  or many things.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what he says is it's almost like acknowledging
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_02: And feeling sadness and disappointment about the lack and the loss in the
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_02: relationship is what allows for us to appreciate what is there.
• 1:14:33
  And so maybe that's...
• 1:14:35
  I've often thought of it as grieving the vision,
• 1:14:37
  right?
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we thought it was going to be this way.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: We dreamed about it being this way.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: We had a fantasy of what it was going to be like, and it's never that.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so maybe that's part of it too,
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_02: is just again,
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_02: and maybe we keep going back to the same thing,
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_02: but allowing the sadness for the lack,
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_02: how sad it is to face that separation,
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: to have a child who doesn't want you right now,
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_02: or isn't responding in the way that you,
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_02: it isn't working.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Essentially it's,
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_02: You're not being fulfilled.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_02: The fulfillment isn't working.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And to be able to, it's not a bad thing to feel that sadness.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Let yourself acknowledge it.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Let yourself feel it.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's what opens the way to be grateful for what is there.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_02: What can still be there.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it's totally different.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or very small things.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or other things.
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there are other areas in your life where there is more love.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly,
• 1:16:03
  sometimes just finding something that you love that you can
• 1:16:09
  give your attention to.
• 1:16:11
  that receives your attention,
• 1:16:13
  that allows for that,
• 1:16:15
  so that you can love on something.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't even have to be a person.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_01: It can just be something that brings that fulfillment to you.
• 1:16:32
  So now that we're through this vulnerability piece,
• 1:16:35
  this very,
• 1:16:36
  there's so much,
• 1:16:37
  right?
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it has sparked lots of questions.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's time for another Q&A, as you said.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we will...
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think you said,
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember if we talked about it before recording or not,
• 1:16:52
  but we'll make sure that a form is provided for our paid
• 1:16:55
  subscribers to submit
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_01: those questions.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not a paid subscriber,
• 1:16:59
  this is a good time to do that so that you can submit the
• 1:17:02
  questions that you have.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: around these topics in season two or season one,
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:17:07
  feel free to bring what's happening in your life and the
• 1:17:11
  questions you have around
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 1:17:12
  And we will,
• 1:17:14
  um,
• 1:17:14
  use these concepts that we've been exploring,
• 1:17:17
  apply those to your situation.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, thanks for being here.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is brave work, big, brave work.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we appreciate all of you being here and
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Showing up,
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_01: showing up for yourselves and your relationships and yeah,
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_01: so much appreciation and grace and grace for us too.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I feel like sometimes I'm,
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_02: trying,
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_02: but not having the same direct and personal relationships with,
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_02: with the moms who listen.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I feel one step removed at times.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so thank you for your grace with me as listeners where,
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_02: if I'm missing the mark or,
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_02: just totally not getting it,
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:18:14
  Thank you for your continuing to show up and forgive me in my
• 1:18:18
  own trespasses.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel like forgiveness.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_01: It just feels like we're just two humans in this together,
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_01: and we're meddling through like all of us as best we can.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is the human experience.
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's yeah.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so grateful for you, Rose.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:18:47
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:18:50
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget that as a paid subscriber,
• 1:18:54
  you have access to more resources and can help us to shape the
• 1:18:58
  conversation.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_01: As always,
• 1:19:00
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:19:03
  comments and hope you
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_01: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.