Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Navigating the Complexities of Caregiving With Sarah Vosburgh | The Christian Reeve Podcast #352

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Navigating the Complexities of Caregiving With Sarah Vosburgh | The Christian Reeve Podcast #352 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
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Podcast. Today's guest is a psychologist
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and author and a caregiver. Her name is Sarah Vosberg.
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Welcome to the show. How you doing?
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Good. Morning.
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Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
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I was pretty. What's the word I would use?
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Every now and again I get like an episode that comes through or
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a guest or something where it's like it tackles quite a like a
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tough subject or a deep subject, something like that.
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So I kind of have to approach it a little bit differently, but I
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always look at it as like a big honour because it kind of, I
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feel like those shows tend to give you more of an like a
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what's the word I'm looking for? I'm running out of words.
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Somebody talks all the time. Give it gives you an opportunity
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to kind of deep dive into something, think about things,
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reflect on life, you know, which I feel is always kind of the
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most important thing. I think certainly with this show
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over the years has been the thing I've always been proudest
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of is, is just getting people to talk about their lives and
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experiences and everything in between.
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So, yeah, just starting off by saying just, yeah, thanks for
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being on the show. Really, really appreciate it.
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Let's just jump jump into some some good stuff.
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So your book, who will name the bees?
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I love that title. I know my partner loves bees, so
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I know it's it's more of a metaphor.
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But anyway, it explores themes of memory, loss, faith, and the
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quiet moments that shape a life. So if I'm right in understanding
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this, because I was when I was doing my research, I was trying
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to kind of build a picture of what your writing is.
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So it's a memoir that discusses your journey going into
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caregiving as you made the commitment to provide care for
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your mother. So I guess my first question is,
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you know, why did you decide to write and publish this memoir?
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What was the, I guess the motivation to do so?
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Didn't I never intended to be an author and I never intended to
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write about this. And it wasn't until after my
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mother died that just stories about her kept coming out.
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And they were stories. Some of them were stories that I
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had told many, many times to my family about, oh, when I was
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little, my mom did this or, you know, grandma did that or
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whatever. But then they started to, they
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woke me up at night and I, I kept saying in the middle of the
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night that I needed a pencil and paper.
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And my husband got me a glass top for my night table and
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handed me a Sharpie and said, when you wake up in the night,
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write stuff down and then you'll have it.
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And I did, and it sort of came out in bits and pieces, but I
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didn't do anything with it. And then I got involved.
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As I was looking at retirement, I was looking at some of the
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things I wanted to do in retirement.
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And I got involved with San Diego Writers, Inc and I took a
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class there about memoir just because I was curious and
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interested in a lot of the stuff that I was writing was memoir
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ask. And we got assignments every
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week and five pages at a time, I wrote bits and pieces off that
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stuff that was written in Sharpie on the night table.
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And all of a sudden I realized I had a huge volume of information
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and did some real thinking about what I wanted to do with it.
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Before you went to publish it, was there anything throughout
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the course of writing it that surprised you when you were
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looking back through these notes?
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Because obviously whenever you hear about people writing a
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book, you always hear them talking about the process, how
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long it can take. I mean, I saw a post the other
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day where someone was saying it took her up to like 3 years to
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write a book, you know, because it's this big process.
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And it depends what your goal is ultimately.
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And as you said, like it wasn't the initial plan.
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But then it becomes clearer like, oh, OK, this is this is
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going to be this, this is going to be a memoir.
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So was there anything that surprised you in that journey,
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or maybe even just like when you were writing these stories down
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that you kind of felt was a surprise?
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Surprised me that it ended up being a memoir and that I had
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enough information and it all was so thematic.
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And I thought a lot about memory and legacy and passing that
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stuff on. But I also thought a lot about
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how alone I was when this was happening, how alone I felt.
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And I had the support, total support of my husband and my
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bestie. But I'm an only child.
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And it was it was just I. I would hear friends talk about
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doing the same with their families, needing to do
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something with grandma or needing to do something with
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mom, and the fights they would have with siblings about that,
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who was going to take care of her and who rushed in as the
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hero who lived, you know, 5 states away and those kinds of
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things. And you know, they would say to
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me, oh, you're so lucky you got to make all these decisions
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yourself. Yes, I guess I was lucky that I
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got to make them on myself. But it was very, very lonely.
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So I wanted it. Another aspect of writing it
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down and publishing it was that I wanted people to not feel so
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alone. Whether they were part of a
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larger sibling group or and only like me or the only one left, I
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just wanted them to know that they're I.
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I know my experiences aren't unique.
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Maybe my stories about my mother are unique, but I know that the
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experience itself isn't unique. I just wanted to people to know
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that they weren't alone and yeah, and that that became a
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driving force. Won't be through the process of
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of like writing the memoirs when when it became a full memoir
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like how did you structure that exactly?
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I didn't. So I got the assignments from
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the classes I was taking and we were only to bring 5 pages at a
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time to class. And I'm a do things at the last
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minute kind of person. So I would, classes were on
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Saturday and I would get up on Saturday.
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I'd, I'd think about it all week, but I'd get up on Saturday
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morning and I would write it and then I would go to class and I,
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I only had to write 5 pages and I knew I could get 5 pages down.
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And then we would read them to each other and give feedback and
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so on and so forth. And then when I realized that I
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had volume and then it kind of had some order to it.
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It kind of had a, a vessel, if you will, of the time that my
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mother was, I call it incarcerated because she would
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have, had she been in her right mind.
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I, I realized I sat, I, I was sitting on my living room floor.
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My husband can attest to this, was sitting on my living room
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floor putting out papers along the essays along the floor of
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things that had happened. And they were in a chronological
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order. And it was then that I had the
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idea to do the flashbacks. So the first part of each
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chapter is what is happening with my mother at the time in
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memory care. And then the second-half of it
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is something that happened or something that happened at that
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time of year in my younger or not so younger life.
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And in between is a poem. I poetry grabs me the same way
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other things do. And so a lot of those got
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written with Sharpie on the glass too.
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And I picked the ones that went with the months that they were
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in. And I felt like they were that
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that they gave more depth to the understanding of my relationship
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with my mother without my having to write lengthy prose to
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explain it. So they, I feel like they're the
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book is in black and white and I feel like the poetry is a color
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snapshot. When you started reading these
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stories to people, that must have been pretty daunting.
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Like, how did it feel sharing those stories with, you know,
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strangers? I'm sure you read it to like
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your husband and people around you and stuff.
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But like, that's different because it's, it's your, it's
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your close, close knits, you know what I mean?
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But it's when it's strangers, that's like, you know, it's a
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part of you. It's a personal thing, a very
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personal thing, deeply emotional thing.
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What was that like for you? You're absolutely right.
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Sharing it with close friends and family, it was always like,
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this is so good, you did such a good job.
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This really captures her. And I was like, no, no, this is
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the first that I, the first foray that I've taken into
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writing and I need some criticism.
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What's wrong with it? And the only person who gave me
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criticism really was my husband. And he didn't give a lot.
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He more added details that I might have forgotten from things
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that he had been around for also.
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So I was desperate, really. I was really, really looking for
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criticism and I was happy to get it when I got it.
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The thing that surprised me is when I wrote it, I just wrote
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it. It came.
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It just came out and I did it. Sometimes it was really angry
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and required editing, and that was fine.
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But when I read it out loud in class, more often than not there
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were tears, and I did not realize how much of AA catharsis
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and a healing and a mourning that it was because it had all
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been put off while I was making decisions about how to keep my
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mother safe. You often hear people talk about
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this like when they're going, because obviously every human
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being has a completely different emotional makeup.
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You know, some of us, it completely paralyses us.
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We can't do anything for others. It's, you know, I think I'm a
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bit like yourself, like Doer like focus on the thing.
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But then the problem with that is the emotions get put to a
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side and ideally they get addressed later or in private or
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whatever, or sometimes they just don't and then it comes out
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later and it's it's a dangerous one.
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I wondered on on that theme, when you were going through and
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rereading everything and looking through it, was that in any way
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traumatic for you? Or was that like, how did you
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manage your emotions that kind of essentially reliving it?
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You know what I mean? Because you're, you're thinking
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about these things as you're reading them, as you're sharing
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them, etcetera. Like, walk me through that a
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little bit. You kind of hit the nail on the
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head with the doer thing. I realized something needed to
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be done. I did a lot of research.
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I visited a lot of memory care units that were near me so that
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she could be near me and so on. But it was all very mechanical.
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I, I did it because I knew I needed to do it, but it was all
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in my head and in my heart in the sense that I wanted to keep
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her safe and have her be content, which was a very
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romanticized view, I might add. There was no contentness for
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hers, for her in this process. It was not, not content at all.
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And there wasn't looking back on it.
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There's not much I could have changed about that.
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But I really didn't feel it until afterwards.
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And I think that's probably part of the reason that the writing
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came, you know, came before I took the classes and so on, is
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that I was doing the work that I couldn't do because it would
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have derailed me. I would have been dysfunctional
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if I realized what was happening.
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And my mother was second generation, potentially third
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generation Alzheimer's. From the stories that I hear
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about my great grandfather, it's likely that he also had it.
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My grandmother had it. I was old enough when she really
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started to deteriorate that I was aware of what was going on.
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I was aware of how my mother handled it and so I had a bit of
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a road map relative to my mother's opinions about how that
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should be handled and how long independence should be fostered
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and and so on. So I just followed the manual
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and didn't think emotionally. So she actually gave you some
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advice then, or she, at least based on her experiences, gave
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you an idea of what might be to come.
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Yeah, not so much what might be to come, but well, yes, I guess
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she, she was absolutely committed to helping my
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grandmother who was a BSNA bachelor's in nursing, one of
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the first ever from her school that actually got ABS in the
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process. She was really proud of that.
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She was really, really proud of her education.
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She was born in the early 1900s. Actually she was born in the
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late 1800s and, you know, came to her own in, in the early
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1900s and went to nursing school then.
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So, and education was a, was a, a fiercely important thing in my
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family. So she was fiercely proud of
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that. My mother was fiercely proud of
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her. And she wanted to help.
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She, she thought that she could help my grandmother
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intellectualize herself through it.
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Like if you're just, you're really smart, you can do this,
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you can get past this because you're so smart.
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And so she treated my grandmother like she was able to
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be independent and she wasn't. And my dad and I would argue
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with her and say, you know, this has to stop.
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She didn't live far from our house.
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My mother would go over twice a day, have her take her meds,
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bring her meals, stuff like that.
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But she would leave meals on the table and forget to eat them.
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She'd leave the water running in the bathroom sink.
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She'd forget that there was a toilet if she needed to use it,
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it she not remembered to put on clothes or take off clothes or
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change clothes and so on and so forth.
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And that all shouldn't have been happening.
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I mean, it was an assault on her dignity, but my mother was
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trying. So I felt like I needed to do
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the same for her. Now it was a little bit
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different context for my grandmother.
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My grandfather was dead when this was happening, so it was
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just my mom and my dad and me who were caring for her.
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My mom, my dad died when I was younger and my mom remarried and
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it it had been, I guess my assumption, not necessarily
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correct, that he would be caring for her.
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He was her husband and later on I found out that they had had
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discussions about that and she was very emphatic with him that
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she did not want to become a burden to me and that part of
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her responsive, his responsibility was to care for
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her. But she also never expected to
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be in the condition that she was because she expected to know
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that it was happening and to, if there was a book that came out,
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I don't remember when, it was long before this happened with
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her, but it was called The Final Exit.
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And it was about ending your own life if you were ill or, you
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know, deteriorating or whatever. And she made it clear to me that
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she was going to do that if that were the case, which was
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something that we argued about over and over and over again.
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And I would say to her mom, it would be a privilege for me to
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care for you at the end of your life, no matter what your
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condition isn't. She would have none of it.
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So it was all about the independence and being able to
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use her intellect and so on and so forth with the way she
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behaved with my grandmother, the arguments that we had about it
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and how she talked about what might happen with her if that
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were the case. When all was said and done, she
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didn't remember. Thank the Lord, because I don't,
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I, I, I think that would have been almost harder to deal with.
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So, yeah. So that was her road map.
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Her road map was her, her behavior, her example, family
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history, all of that. That kind of guided where I was
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going with what I was doing with her and not having any help from
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him. And I think, you know, I try to
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be kind to him in that situation.
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I think that there was a lot of denial.
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He wanted a partner and he wanted her to be able to do the
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things that he wanted to do with her.
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And he didn't want to have to face any of this.
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And I don't think he had the skills to do it.
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So I was inserting myself into something that I should never
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have inserted myself into. It should have been a back and
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forth conversation about this is what's going to happen and and
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it wasn't. It was or what should happen.
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And it ended up being a This is what's going to happen because I
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can't get you to discuss this with me.
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What do you think it you know, when it comes to deciding to
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become a caregiver? What sort of thing should a
19:23
person be considering before making that kind of commitment?
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Well. I did a lot of little test
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trials. We had her come to the house to
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stay a weekend, to stay a week, to do stuff with the kids.
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That kind of thing I was raising, I was the classic
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sandwich generation. I had a mom who was failing and
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kids I was raising who, you know, weren't driving, aged,
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needed to get them everywhere, all of that sort of thing.
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So how it fits into your life and what you're able to do.
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I was not able to quit my job in order to care for her.
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So those financial concerns need to be there and I hate that that
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needs to be a part of it. And also your ability to care.
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When my mother was in my home, she was completely confused
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because it wasn't her space. She didn't know.
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She couldn't remember where anything was.
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She'd been to my home many, many, many times, obviously, but
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could not remember where the bathroom was or the kitchen or,
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you know, where to sit down in a comfy chair.
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It she she couldn't do that. So then it and then there were,
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you know, Mama's time to get dressed, you know, let's pick up
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something to wear sort of thing. And she couldn't do it.
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And there ended up being arguments over those things.
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And would I handle it differently now?
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Yes. Would it have made a whole lot
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of difference? I don't think so because of the
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place she was in the process of her, her mind, you know, failing
21:11
on her. So those are things that need to
21:14
be considered too, because her her dignity became a huge part
21:19
of this. Was her dignity protected in
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this process? And she had breast cancer for
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the second time while all of this was going on.
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It was early, but she had it and she was adamant that she would
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be. She was much older at the time
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and she was adamant that she would be treated like any 30
21:44
year old and that's not the protocol for someone who was her
21:46
age. And she argued with the doctor
21:49
about it and I think they just didn't want to argue with her
21:52
anymore. So they did do that.
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It took a lot out of her, but she couldn't care for herself
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and he didn't care for her. So her wounds got infected.
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She had, they took skin from her back to make way for implants in
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the front. And the wound in the back got
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infected because she couldn't reach it and he wouldn't care
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for it. And that's a dignity and safety
22:19
issue for me. And I was, I was adamant that
22:23
dignity and safety needed to be at the top of the list.
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And I think I wanted to make for all of that.
22:32
I wanted to care for her, but I had to recognize my limitations
22:36
and the limitations of our relationship at that point.
22:40
And I think those are things to consider.
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Can you do that? Can, you know, does it become a
22:48
constant argument? Is she going to try and escape
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the house? I can't lock her into my house.
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She took a walk down the secondary Rd., a secondary
22:57
highway, trying to get to my dad from her own home because there
23:05
was a strange man in her house because she didn't recognize her
23:08
second husband. So that dignity and the safety,
23:12
I think are things that really need to be to be considered in
23:18
the process and it's going to be different for every family and
23:22
every circumstance. I think a lot of the time in
23:25
these instances, people I will for, you know, like doing like,
23:30
of course I want to be there. I want to take care of my loved
23:32
ones. I don't want to send them to a
23:34
home. And it's like, I think you have
23:37
to always consider the practical side of things.
23:40
I mean, you mentioned having a job.
23:42
This is a big one. Not everyone can afford to like
23:45
to quit their job and do it full time.
23:47
So that's number one. Number two, when I say the
23:50
practicality, I mean like, OK, maybe getting a stair lift,
23:55
getting a special type of bathroom, toilet facilities and
24:00
stuff, all these different considerations.
24:04
I've, I've seen some of it first hand.
24:07
I'm not by any means an expert, but like I've I've seen it, I've
24:10
seen how it plays out. And what I've kind of concluded
24:13
is, is you have to probably get like some sort of a consultant
24:20
to help you with it and then kind of decide, right, these are
24:22
the elements of care that need to be done.
24:25
This is kind of what the schedule look like etcetera.
24:28
Now earlier you did mention that you'd, you'd consulted a bunch
24:31
of people like, but how did you I guess settle on like, OK, I
24:37
can do this, this is what I need to do.
24:40
Like how did you decide on all of that?
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First of all, I would have loved to have had a consultant and I
24:46
don't think that ever occurred to us.
24:48
And I'm not sure that there were that many who were out there at
24:52
the time. And I, I learned very quickly
24:57
that I was not going to be able to be my mother's full time
25:00
caregiver, that I wasn't going to be able to wrestle, wrestle
25:03
her into the shower or whatever. And we would have been happy to
25:09
do visiting nurses and so on. She would not tolerate anyone.
25:17
So again, dignity, safety, she wouldn't have wanted anyone to
25:22
help her take a shower 'cause she wouldn't have wanted anyone
25:24
to see her naked. I never saw my mother naked
25:27
until the day she died. And you know, when I talk about
25:34
people, not, I want people not to feel so alone about this
25:38
whole process. I, I had a professor back in the
25:42
day in grad school who said parenting is an amateur sport.
25:48
And it absolutely is. It's an amateur sport with the
25:50
first one and then you think what you know what you're
25:52
supposed to do and the second one comes out completely
25:55
differently and on and on. And I would say that parenting
26:00
your parent, which is what we end up doing in this situation,
26:04
is also an amateur sport. And you make the very best
26:10
decisions that you can with the information that you have at the
26:14
time that you have it and at the time that it's happening.
26:18
And I do, I have regrets, not truly regrets.
26:27
It's more, gosh, I wish I had that information back then.
26:32
And maybe I tried to do too much alone by myself because that's
26:37
what I did. Because yeah, I'm an only child
26:41
and that's what you do. But yeah, it's you don't.
26:46
You don't get a blueprint or a road map for it any more than
26:49
you do when you have the kid. And every dementia patient is
26:57
different. If you've met one, you've met
26:58
one. My mom became very angry and
27:03
combative and she was only 411 and was probably 100 lbs
27:08
dripping wet. But the adrenaline flows and
27:13
that becomes difficult to deal with.
27:15
And yeah, and I, I didn't want my children either to have
27:22
memories of her being so combative and difficult.
27:27
They had good memories from their time with her and when she
27:33
wasn't failing. And I, I didn't want those later
27:38
memories to be about the combativeness and the resistance
27:43
and having to, you know, fight with her to get her to do simple
27:47
things. So did you just sort of say,
27:48
like, for the time being, maybe it's best not to visit her?
27:53
Was that kind of how you kept them away, at least just during
27:57
the harder times or? You know, she sang with, she
28:01
sang with us 3 generations in our church choir.
28:05
So they saw her at least once a week, but more often twice a
28:10
week, once for rehearsal and then for church.
28:13
And then we would sometimes go out afterwards for church.
28:17
And for whatever reason, she was usually in a decent mood at
28:21
those times. So they got that in those waning
28:27
years. Yeah.
28:31
And I would I would say that my mother's nosedive was quicker
28:35
than many. Sometimes it takes a long time,
28:38
sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, then this is interesting.
28:42
Yeah, trauma also hastens all of that.
28:46
And chemotherapy did nothing to help her.
28:49
Not, no, no reflection on the medical community, but it did
28:54
nothing to help her as far as as her deterioration was concerned.
28:59
You mentioned before that you said the doctor like wouldn't
29:03
help with that. Do you mean that they refused?
29:05
Like you were kind of trying to lay out like what, hey, this
29:07
person is suffering from dementia and this is how we're
29:11
trying to help her, etcetera. I understand you have your
29:14
responsibilities, but like I need support.
29:17
And was it like they just said no?
29:19
Like I don't quite understand that.
29:21
They didn't they, I don't think they quite believed me.
29:24
And my mother would go in and she would.
29:27
I don't know how much experience you have with dementia patients,
29:30
but they learn to speak in generalities.
29:35
So hi, Christian, it's nice to see you.
29:38
What a beautiful day it is today.
29:41
You know, how are how are the kids?
29:43
How are your neighbors? What's going on with your dog?
29:46
You know, things like that very, very generalized conversation.
29:51
And it sounds so competent. And it was not.
29:56
So she would, I would go to the doctor with her.
29:58
She'd be in the doctor's office and the doctor would say, your
30:00
mother is a lovely woman. She forgets things every once in
30:04
a while. It's it's not a big deal, Don't
30:06
worry about it. And I would say, but the driving
30:09
she drives left. We're in the United States.
30:12
She drives left. It's not OK.
30:15
And they said we'll bring her to motor vehicles and have her
30:17
tested. My mother wouldn't give up her
30:19
keys. My mother wasn't going to give
30:22
up driving. That meant giving up her
30:23
independence. So when I talk about the the
30:26
indignity and and so on, it was prevalent everywhere and she
30:34
became a danger to herself and others, certainly with things
30:38
like that. It always kind of angers me when
30:41
you hear physicians, doctors that gaslight their patients or
30:47
or try to tell you like how it. It reminds me of a guest I had
30:51
about a year or two ago. Shout out to Gemma, she was
30:56
talking about Women's Health in the UK and how you'd often go
30:59
and get a check up on for something and then they would
31:02
tell you no, no, no, no, no. Actually it's this.
31:04
And it's a tricky one because obviously with a doctor it's
31:07
like they've got this training and like, yes, we're not the
31:11
experts, but it's like, well, I'm with this person every
31:13
single day. Like I'm taking care of this
31:16
person every single day. Like I would know, I'm not like
31:20
there's always the small shred of doubt, of course, in every
31:23
situation, but it's like, as you said, general reality,
31:27
generalities like it. What I'm kind of getting from
31:31
this picture is that your mother's decline was, as you
31:35
said, like fast towards the end. But like over time, there was
31:42
still like think things like the singing is interesting because
31:46
it's like, is that muscle memory?
31:48
Is that just good long term memory?
31:52
You know what I mean? Like, and, and the fact that
31:55
your short term versus long term memory is, is there's kind of
31:57
the battle. I mean, even in just everyday
32:01
life we have that, don't we? You know, my long term recalls
32:03
great, but I couldn't tell you what I had for lunch yesterday.
32:05
You know what does that mean? That's pretty normal.
32:09
Right. I know.
32:09
But I just say like it's, it's interested in that, you know
32:12
what I mean? Well, and we are talking about
32:15
the arts now here. So it's 2026 and this was
32:19
happening in the arts and care has changed, people's
32:23
understanding has changed. I probably had reasonably good
32:30
resources, but again, because I was navigating this on my own,
32:36
may have not had all the things that I needed.
32:40
Music. Interestingly that you bring
32:43
that up, music is the last to go.
32:47
So people with dementia can often sing or play instruments
32:54
the way they've done for their whole lifetime without
32:58
difficulty. The last time I sang with my
33:00
mother, she sang with her music completely upside down and very
33:04
correctly. What?
33:07
That means I don't know. I don't know.
33:10
But my I would say that that's a bookend.
33:13
Like my very earliest memory is around my mother with music, her
33:18
singing to me, and one of my latest memories is her singing
33:22
with me. You mentioned earlier that, you
33:24
know, a big way that you were able to kind of get through all
33:27
of this was, you know, staying focused and, and just kind of
33:32
working on things, working through things, you know,
33:34
focusing on the care, focusing on what had to be done.
33:38
But how did you, and I can't really think of a better way to
33:42
say ask this, but like, how did you keep it together?
33:45
How did you stay strong? My husband and my bestie, I
33:49
guess there were, there were some tears a lot.
33:52
There were a lot of tears along the way, but they were about the
33:54
very obvious things, not the real heart wrenching stuff that
34:00
I didn't deal with until later. But I had the two of them, so I,
34:04
you know, they stood on either shoulder and helped me through
34:09
it. And yeah, I without them.
34:15
What do you think your mother would have, would have thought
34:17
of? Just everything Like how things
34:20
went, like how you were able to take care of her.
34:22
Like what do you think she would have thought about that?
34:25
She would have been furious, absolutely furious.
34:29
And she would be furious about the book because it what she
34:33
would say airs dirty laundry. She would be absolutely incensed
34:41
by the whole idea. Proud.
34:44
Proud of, you know, I think I'd be proud.
34:48
I don't know. Well, thank you very much for
34:51
that. I appreciate it.
34:55
Maybe with her mind back, right. Yeah.
34:59
You know, where she whole maybe some understanding, just like I
35:05
came on to. I came late to my understanding
35:08
of my mother and her love for me.
35:11
It was a very specific brand. She was an odd duck and she
35:17
Yeah, but in the end she was a a terrific parents.
35:21
Certainly when I was a very young child.
35:25
We fought a lot through my, my teen years and my 20s.
35:31
We were very, very, very different people.
35:34
Safe topics, the garden and music, sometimes art and
35:39
literature after that, politics, forget it.
35:43
I hadn't grown up. I wasn't, you know, I didn't
35:46
think right. You know, I taught you to think
35:48
better than that. Just there came a point where I
35:52
just didn't talk to her about any of those things anymore and
35:55
stuck to the, yeah, music and the arts.
35:59
I mean gardening and the arts. It's the trickier thing as well
36:02
because like once you get to adult age, you know, now it's
36:07
like these people never stop being your parents, but you will
36:10
inevitably clash. Disagree, speaking from
36:14
experience here. And it's, it's frustrating, but
36:17
at the same time it's, I think it's kind of inevitable because
36:20
you are different people. You're not going to see things
36:22
the same way and it's different. You know, you don't live like
36:27
when you're at home. When you're living at home, you
36:29
know you're under their house, you're under their rules and
36:32
there are certain expectations and everything.
36:34
And then once you leave, you're an adult.
36:37
Now, sure, you're naive, sure you're grown up, you don't know.
36:40
But like we've every, your parent was in that situation at
36:44
one point. Now you are.
36:45
And as you move throughout your life, you know, you become an
36:49
adult by your own right. You know, like you, you make
36:53
your own decisions. You, you come to your own
36:55
understandings, you frame your reference for the world and
36:59
everything. And then it's like trying to
37:02
figure out or what does our relationship look like now?
37:05
Because it's like we're equal, but of course we're not at the
37:08
same time because we'll always have this dynamic.
37:12
So it's like trying to find the happy medium.
37:15
And I don't know, I think it's, it's, it's always a challenge.
37:21
She didn't know me in the end. She knew I was familiar.
37:24
She definitely knew I was familiar and she was always
37:27
happy to see me. She didn't know my name or my
37:30
children's names or my husband's name.
37:34
Again, just knew that she was happy to see me.
37:38
There wasn't any real way. So we went from not having a
37:42
great relationship to not being able to have a relationship
37:46
because she wasn't able to, to cogitate on relationship.
37:54
Do you know what I mean? And I, you know, I hope, I hope
37:57
my readers take away some, some piece about the decisions they
38:05
make and the relationships that they have with their parents and
38:12
how they, how they helped manage these difficult times because
38:17
it's, it is truly difficult. Even even slight dementia
38:22
situations are hard to deal with.
38:27
Yeah. So, but she wasn't for at least
38:31
the last 10 years of her life, she was not capable of having a
38:35
relationship. The relationship is going to be
38:38
very one sided. And it wasn't even really a
38:40
power dynamic. It, I mean, obviously a parent
38:44
child relationship is a power dynamic, but it wasn't even
38:48
really a power dynamic dynamic. It was just a care dynamic.
38:52
It was a protection dynamic. I have to protect this being
38:59
that's important to me, but they are not who they were.
39:02
Is that, I mean, I think we, I already kind of have the answer,
39:06
but was that ultimately why you decided to take care of yourself
39:11
versus say arranging for care elsewhere?
39:14
Because I I do hear a lot of time people say, oh, well, I
39:16
want them close to me, I want them with me, you know, I don't
39:20
trust other caregivers, etcetera.
39:24
Yeah. How did you come to that
39:26
decision? What?
39:27
What was the? I I did not.
39:29
I cared for her for a time and in bits and pieces and expected
39:34
and talked to her husband about how to care for her.
39:38
But ultimately the the book is about the incarceration time.
39:44
It's about the time that I said we can't do this anymore, We are
39:49
unable to and made the decision to put her in memory care.
39:54
And then she ended up in an If you think a psych ward is I
39:59
shouldn't say that. If you think a psych unit is a
40:01
difficult place to be, and it is, an Alzheimer's psych unit is
40:08
devastatingly. Awful.
40:11
And that's where she ended up because she was angry and
40:15
agitated and wouldn't let anyone help her.
40:18
I wouldn't have been able to care for her at home under those
40:21
circumstances, either in her home or my home.
40:24
You said a lot throughout the conversation that you felt you
40:28
had regrets and I think you've got a healthy relationship with
40:32
it because you, you see, you do say afterwards, well, you know,
40:37
it's kind of the benefit of hindsight really isn't.
40:39
It's like, well, I did my best in that time.
40:40
I did what I could do with the resources I had and did my best.
40:45
But you you've mentioned a few times you have regrets.
40:48
So like, what would you have done differently?
40:51
I. Think I would have told her what
40:52
to do a little bit more. There's an example in the book
40:55
about after she had her second breast surgery.
41:02
I was very worried about her. Her husband was working.
41:05
She wasn't getting any help at home.
41:07
She was sleeping a lot. She wasn't waking to take her
41:12
medication. She was already very fuzzy at
41:16
that point. The dementia had already taken
41:18
some hold. And I said to my husband, I want
41:22
to bring her home for a while and care for her here at our
41:27
house where I can do that and care for my young children at
41:29
the same time. And he said, well then go get
41:33
her. And I said, I can't do that.
41:35
I'm going to tell her and she's going to say no.
41:38
And he said, so I said she's going to get mad at me.
41:41
I didn't want her to be mad at me.
41:45
He said it better she should be mad here and safe than home and
41:49
not go get her. So he was the one who helped me
41:56
understand that there were things that I just needed to
41:59
tell her to do. And I kept giving her choices.
42:03
So I called her the following morning after he and I spoke
42:06
about that. And I said, Mom, I'm coming to
42:10
get you, 'cause I think you could use a little R&R at my
42:15
house while you're while you're feeling better and the kids and
42:18
I will will take care of you. And this little voice on the end
42:21
of the phone was, and she just said, OK, and that was that.
42:29
And then and I said, OK, so pack up a few things and I'll be
42:31
there. Pack up your meds and all that
42:33
and I'll be there. She couldn't even do that.
42:35
She was just sitting by the chair by the back door when I
42:38
got there. And she said I was too tired
42:40
wearing the same things that she had been wearing when I left her
42:43
the day she came home from the hospital.
42:47
So do things earlier for your for your folks that you're
42:52
caring for. Don't wait to get them more
42:55
care. Find out what the resources are.
42:59
Town social workers can be helpful.
43:02
Your church or synagogue or mosque can be helpful.
43:07
There are all kinds of places to go to for help and people are
43:12
much more aware now. And if they can't help you,
43:16
they're likely to be able to give you some guidance about
43:20
where you can go to get help. So it was the I should have told
43:25
her, I should have directed her. I should have, you know, done
43:31
the done the puppetry thing and told her what to do because she
43:37
would have done a little bit more, but we still would have
43:41
ended up where we were. Sounds to me like you did your
43:43
very best. I tried.
43:47
I thought I'd I'd include this because I told my girlfriend
43:52
that I was going to be doing this show because I'm sure she
43:55
won't mind me saying this. But basically she and her family
43:58
took care of her great grandfather for a few years and
44:03
he also experienced dementia and everything.
44:06
And she said to say to tell me to tell you to say to tell you
44:16
that you're incredible. It's often a thankless job and
44:20
you've made the world of difference.
44:22
So I thought I'd share that. Tell her thank you.
44:25
Tell her thank you so very much for that.
44:28
I got, I got a fair amount of criticism from some of my mom's
44:31
friends who thought things weren't that bad.
44:35
So that was kind of tough. And I really, I really
44:38
appreciate that. Please, please give her a hug
44:41
and a thank you for me. Oh, I will moving to forward.
44:46
Just a final couple of questions for you just to kind of see
44:49
things through for today. What has caregiving taught you
44:52
about life? Important memory and stories are
44:57
to all of us. And possessions, yeah, they are
45:04
what they are. Memories and stories are really
45:08
our legacies going forward, and they're important.
45:13
OK, I've I've only I should add I've started including this
45:17
particular question because I always ask my guests best
45:20
advice, biggest live lessons. I decided to add this because I
45:23
thought it's interesting and you also end up getting good advice
45:26
from it. So we'll start with what's the
45:28
worst advice you've ever received?
45:35
Wow, that's a tough one. Probably that I didn't have what
45:38
it took. I didn't have the the direction
45:43
and the focus that it took to succeed in life and not to
45:47
bother with college. That's.
45:48
Crazy when people say stuff like that, isn't it?
45:50
Like it's whenever you think about that, Like I've, I've had
45:54
a lot of people over the years tell me you're doing this wrong.
45:58
You know, you're not doing this right.
46:01
And I've always just kind of pushed it to the side, pushed it
46:03
to the side, pushed it to the side because I think unless
46:05
someone's living your life, they don't know what's right for you
46:07
or what your capabilities are, and they never will.
46:12
And you know, everyone is happy to criticize and judge and then,
46:18
you know, so it's like this saying you're crazy until you're
46:20
a genius, you know, until it all works out.
46:23
And then suddenly. Right.
46:26
It doesn't work until it does, yeah.
46:28
OK, what's the best advice you've ever received?
46:31
I had a it kind of came via way of a compliment.
46:36
I had the same professor that said raising children is an
46:41
amateur business made a comment. Sarah can teach anyone anything.
46:48
And it changed my whole attitude about relationships and being
46:57
able to impart wisdom where you have it.
47:01
And I haven't always had it, but it made me think differently
47:07
about doing that. And you cannot do any of that
47:14
without love. And so it gets all wrapped
47:19
together and he shored me up at a time when I didn't think I
47:25
could get from where I was to where I wanted to go.
47:29
So. What's the biggest life lesson
47:31
you've learned so far? That you have to let people be
47:35
who they are and love them anyway.
47:38
Couldn't agree more. Final question for you.
47:40
Do you have any upcoming projects or final thoughts that
47:43
you'd like to share with our listeners?
47:44
I projects, yeah, I'm working on my father who's a different
47:51
beasts all together. Learned a lot about how very
47:57
much alike I am with my mom in so many ways and him also.
48:07
I'm going to be doing a book tour, an 8 city book tour.
48:09
My book launch is April 22nd and I'm back into writing poetry,
48:15
which really kind of was a first love.
48:18
My first poem is in the book. I think it's in November but
48:23
November chapter and it's about snow and it was in 4th grade.
48:28
Oh wow. OK.
48:30
So, yeah. And if readers are interested,
48:34
they can go to mywebsite@sarahvosberg.com.
48:37
There we go. Yeah.
48:40
To the listeners of the show, I hope that you'll go out of your
48:43
way to check out Sarah's work. sarahvosberg.com Thank you so
48:47
much for for being on the show, for sharing your story, amazing
48:51
stuff. I'm very grateful.
48:54
You're pretty amazing yourself. You made it very comfortable to
48:56
be here. You've been a gracious host and
49:00
it's been an honour. Thank you for your time and for
49:02
your listeners time. The honour is mine.
49:04
Thank you so much to all the listeners of the Christian Reef
49:07
Podcast. Hope you enjoyed this show and
49:09
got something out of it as much as I did.
49:12
As always, be safe, be well, and I'll see you all in the next
49:16
one.