Latest / Leaders In Payments / Anytime Anywhere Payments Series: Sarah Hoisington, VP of Strategy and Marketing at Matera | Episode 275

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Anytime Anywhere Payments Series: Sarah Hoisington, VP of Strategy and Marketing at Matera | Episode 275 · Leaders In Payments

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: This special series of the Leaders in Payments podcast, titled Be Solid, is brought to you in collaboration with NMI, the fully integrated payment solution built to scale.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: In this six-part series, we'll explore the ability to accept payments anytime, anywhere, using any device.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We'll dive deep into mobile acceptance via contactless tap-on phone, qr codes and digital wallets.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Merchants and their customers have expectations around Omnichannel commerce, and we'll explore how we got here and what is coming in the future.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: As we know, covid accelerated both mobile and Omnichannel commerce.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: But now what?
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: In a world full of squares and stripes, the solid as merchants and billers see the economic benefits, the efficiency of instant payments, we're going to see more and more offers to switch away from paying with credit cards to directly and instantly.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: That's where secure QR code tech is going to play a bigger and bigger role.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: That was Sarah Hoisington, the VP of Strategy and Marketing for Matera, and she is my special guest on this episode, episode 275 of the Leaders in Payments podcast, and I'm your host, Greg Myers.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: As we continue our deep dive into the Be Solid campaign brought to you by NMI, Sarah and I discuss QR code payments as part of our six-part series on anytime, anywhere payments.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: We discuss the history of QR codes, how successful they've been in other countries, specifically Brazil, and common use cases in the US.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: As we shift to more pay-by-bank transactions here in the US, QR codes are set up to be a major factor.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: We've got a great episode ahead, so let's get started.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Hi, Sarah, and welcome to this episode of the Leaders in Payments podcast, where we're going to be talking about anytime, anywhere payments.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: Of course, QR code payments is a big part of that.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being here today and welcome to the show.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Hi, greg, thanks so much for having me on.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Tell our audience a little bit about yourself, maybe a little personal and professional background information.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Starting with the personal, I live in Bellevue, washington.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: It's about a 15-minute drive east of Seattle.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: I've been married over 27 years to my husband, john.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: We have two boys or I should say young adults Zach and AJ, both software engineers, one's in LA, the other's in New York.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: We're all entertained by our eight-year-old French bulldog named Bossman.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Professionally, I've specialized in financial services and payments for over 20 years.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I always find myself working on the new, new things.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Back in the 90s, I was with BCG, helping clients with things like online banking, when all that was possible at that time were online portals so consumers could see account balances or maybe transfer money.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: In the early mid 2000s, I was with HSBC and their cards business, pushing them into mobile payments.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: That was back in the day when we put a credit card on a Nokia flip phone and enabled consumers to pay at point of sale using NFC technology.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Back then we could only use it at a few places to pay, like McDonald's or Dwayne Reed, which is a pharmacy in New York, among a few other places.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: When a former colleague recruited me to work with Matera, a company that's arguably a global leader in instant payments and related technology, I couldn't say no.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: Well, first I have to comment on the dog's name, that is.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: That is an incredible, maybe the best dog name I've ever heard.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: I have to tell you so my husband and I have different last names and his last name is Rossman, so we joke that it was named after him.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: So when we go to the vet and our dog gets called back, they say boss, man Rossman.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: So, anyway, yes, it works.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: That's great.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Well, tell us a little more about Matera.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: What does Matera do?
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: So Matera is a tech company it's been around over 30 years, actually, and headquartered in Brazil.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: We have a thousand employees, over 250 clients, and not just any clients, but two of the top three global banks, three of the top 10 US banks and a third of all banks in Brazil use our solutions.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: So we really grew up as a core banking provider.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So we're kind of like a Jack Henry and FIS or a FIServ in Brazil.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: When the central bank of Brazil announced they were developing an instant payment solution called PIX, our co-founder, ceo Carlos Neto, became really involved in that effort, because getting PIX launched was a real public, private effort led by the central bank.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: So when it launched in November of 2020, matera had a PIX solution ready for the market.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: So, as your listeners probably all know, pix Instant Payments has been crazy successful.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: It was adopted faster than any other instant payment scheme in the world.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: There are now, in just three years after launch, more PIX Instant Payment transactions than Credit and Debit combined.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: In Brazil, I think in September, there were 3.9 billion PIX Instant Payment transactions.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And as for Matera, we are the largest third party provider of PIX Instant Payment solutions.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Our software alone powers over 350 million instant payments a month.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: That's like 20 times the volume of RTP transactions in the US by the Clearinghouse.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: About 20% of Matera's PIX transactions are initiated by QR codes, and we are now bringing our tech to the US to help drive adoption of instant payments here as well.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Well, what makes Matera unique in the marketplace?
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: I'd have to say a lot of people tell us it's our modern tech and ability to scale that makes us unique.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: So in Brazil we've replaced a lot of PIX providers because their solution couldn't scale the handle the volumes demanded by the market.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: And from a US perspective we also have unique insight on instant payments.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: So Brazil is three to five years or more ahead of the US in terms of instant payment adoption.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: So we've seen what works, what doesn't, the use cases that make sense to invest in the innovation happening on top of the instant payment rails.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: That's opening up new revenue opportunities for the ecosystem.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: So a lot of companies who play especially in the credit card space come to Matera for advice on how to stay relevant in the age of instant payments.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: I think we could do a whole episode just on PIX and kind of the history and the evolution and the success.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: But you mentioned QR code payments, which is really what we're going to dive deep into now.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: So, if you can, would you give us a little history about QR codes and maybe how they've been associated with payments over the years?
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: the cure code itself spent around for over twenty five years.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: It's really only in the last ten years that they've been used for payments, and if you think about even how they came about, it was a Japanese company back in the nineties called denser wave.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: That one is improve on barcode, so they came up with the qr code, really for tracking production.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: It was just about speed for them, so this two dimensional design of a qr code Could be red ten times faster than a barcode, and it really when it comes to payments.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: it wasn't until about ten years ago or so that alipay and we chat pay in china, where the first use qr codes is a contactless payment method so, similar to several of the topics that we've covered in this series, covid was an accelerator for the use of a lot of things right in, especially qr codes, so can you speak to that point a little bit?
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: What are the technological things?
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: That happened was when, when apple in twenty seventeen introduced ios twelve, that enabled qr code scanning from a camera app, so having that available, and then fast forward to twenty twenty, when no one wanted to touch anything because of covid, the use of qr codes took off.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: So I saw a recent stat that said fifty percent of restaurant menus converted to qr codes in the us.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: When covid head, so Practically overnight, we were all scanning qr codes to get product information, regime coupons for love, surveys, join a wifi network, you name it so really did accelerate the adoption of using qr codes and consumers in the us got used to what that qr code could give them and how to scan it.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: So it kind of gave us that familiarity that we didn't have prior to covid.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: It's interesting because I see them everywhere now, right, I mean even tv commercials.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: You know it's like, okay, you've got five seconds to get your phone al and scan that qr code on the.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: But it's working and they're doing it.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: And in fact I'm sitting in this Podcast studio and there's a big screen and it says if you need help connecting, here's qr code.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: So the use cases of them just have proliferated in the last few years.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: We were watching thursday night football last night on amazon prime and half of the commercials had a qr code in the bottom left hand of the screen that you could Can for coupons, can to sign up for something, scan for more product information.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: so it's become just integral to our day to day lives well, I wanna make sure, as we're talking about qr codes and payments and how they've come together, there was a time where you pointed your camera at the qr code.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: It opened up a web form.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: You put your credentials in there, where that's a little different than kind of what I'll call our modern day or newer use of qr codes for payment.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: So can you kind of Unpack the differences and kind of the older way versus the newer way, or maybe even the older way versus the better way?
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: Can you unpack all that for us?
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: So a lot of those qr code use cases that did explode during covid, for what we call kind of the simple url redirect.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: So by that I mean I have a mobile phone, I see a qr code, I open my camera app, I scan the qr code and it redirects me to a landing page so I can see that product information, get that coupon, fill out that survey or whatever.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: So the qr code was kind of used as a tool to connect people from offline activities and move them online.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: And some qr code payment applications work as a url direct also.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: So like if you take toast, the Technology used for ordering and for payments at restaurants so I'm not that uses toast.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Typically customers get their bill at the end of the meal.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Printed at the bottom is a qr code.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: The consumer gets out their mobile phone, opens their camera app, scans the QR code and they get redirected to a landing page where they enter their credit card information.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: So name, card number, everything else mean all of the drill.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: The challenge with this approach is the potential for fraud.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: So what if a consumer gets redirected to a nefarious website, pays a criminal or provides their payment information to a fraudster?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: So there's nothing to prevent that from happening.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: So a lot of times when we talk to people about QR codes they go oh there's just so much fraud that happens with them.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: But there's actually a much more secure approach.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: There is technology that's a lot more secure for generating and facilitating QR code payments.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: So there is API based technology that can generate a unique QR code for a specific transaction and from a consumer's perspective, that QR code looks just like the one that does a URL redirect it has the familiar square filled with a series of those boxes.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: But from a back office perspective, that QR codes represented as a string of alphanumeric characters, so each position in the string provides information about the payment transaction, including things like the amount, the currency, the bill or information and that kind of QR code that's generated by API based technology.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: That QR code isn't scanned from a camera app.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: It's scanned from an authenticated mobile app or a mobile app that a user had to log into, like a bank or a retailer mobile app.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: So when a consumer scans a QR code from within an authenticated mobile app, an API call is made to the solution that generated the QR code, so the QR code can be validated.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Has it been spoofed?
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Has it been tampered with?
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Has it already been paid?
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Once it's been validated, an API response is sent back to the consumer's mobile app with the transaction details so they can look at it and review the transaction authorized payment.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: So with this type of QR code payment technology, there's no need for the consumer or merchant to disclose their payment information.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: It's all handled by the technology related to that kind of a QR code that was generated, and that is the way QR code payment technology works in Brazil.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: It's also available in the US.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: It is early days, but it's this reliable, scalable mechanism or really form factor that's helped to drive instant payment adoption in Brazil.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: And the fastest growing use case of PIX is consumers paying businesses, because it's easy to do thanks to that QR code.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: And if you bring it back to the US and you think about how we have two instant payment rails now we have RTP and we have FedNow but we don't have a really good mechanism for consumers to initiate those instant payments, especially at a merchant or a biller, without having to share their bank account information, qr codes are a really secure way to do that.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: And just to take it a step further, the difference here is also and you can correct me if I'm wrong if you're using your I'm assuming if you're using your banking mobile app, you wouldn't be paying with credit card.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: It would be more of an account to account payment Unlikely, okay.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, unlikely.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: It's possible to configure it that way, but it's unlikely because most of the use cases of why you want someone to pay by QR code is to encourage them to pay by bank, because it's a way to move away from that, especially as a bill or a merchant move away from that high cost of interchange.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: Well, you mentioned Brazil, but how are other regions of the world using QR codes for payments?
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: Is it completely different than how we're doing it here in the US?
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: So the way I described it happening in Brazil is pretty different than the US, because most of the use cases are still kind of URL redirects.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: We're just early days and kind of bringing that technology to API-based QR code technology to the US.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And if you think across the globe, I mean it's really China, india, brazil those are the countries where QR codes are commonly used for payments.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you are shopping at Amazon in Brazil and you get to check out, you're actually presented with a QR code at checkout at amazoncom, which a lot of people are surprised to hear because we don't see that here in the US.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: But one of the things that those countries countries where QR codes are commonly used for payments where it's different is that they have the existence of a QR code standard.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: So in each country, anyone that generates a QR code and it's usually financial institutions that are going to generate them usually they have to adhere to some sort of established standard and the format is slightly different country to country.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: They're all, though any, emv based, so very standards based technology.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: So in Brazil, for example, the alphanumeric string that represents a QR code is 14 fields.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: The fifth field, for example, is the merchant category code.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: We can have four characters for that code.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: That's the kind of standard that exists in those other countries, and so what it does when you have a standard is it makes it easy to have open loop QR code transactions.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And by that what I mean is if we had one in the US, for example, a QR code generated by Wells Fargo can be scanned and paid by a consumer with a bank account at US Bank, for example.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: With a standard, each financial institution has systems configured to extract the data they need from the QR code, that string of alphanumeric characters, to process the payment.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: So the more financial institutions we can get in the US to adhere to the same QR code standard or format, the more this technology can help accelerate instant payment adoption.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: I find all of that very fascinating.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: What do you think's next for QR code payments?
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, where do you see it headed in the next, say, three to five years?
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Qr codes aren't going away as more use cases for instant payments emerge, especially for consumers.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Paying businesses, using a QR code to initiate these payments is really, I mean, it makes complete sense.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: So, and it's funny, whenever I talk about these types of QR code payments, the pushback I always get is well, what about credit cards?
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Americans love their credit cards, their rewards, and a lot of us do, but merchants, as we know, hate the entertained and many of us, when offered a big enough discount or some loyalty points, we're happy to change our payment behavior to save some money.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: And as merchants and billers see the economic benefits, the efficiency of instant payments, we're going to see more and more offers to switch away from paying with credit cards to directly and instantly, and that's where secure QR code tech is going to play a bigger and bigger role.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: And the whole pay by bank movement.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's already happening.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: I have a great example, even from just last night, where my husband and I were paying some bills and one of them was to renew the vehicle tabs and one of our cars and the Department of Licensing for the State of Washington wanted to charge us 3% if we paid by credit card, but we could have the luxury of paying our bill for free if we paid out of our bank account and the bill was over $450.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: So we didn't want to pay the nearly $15 credit card fee.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: But To do pay by bank, we had to log into the Department of Licensing Pima portal with our vehicle license number, which neither of us had memorized.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: We had to input our bank account routing number, which neither of us knew by heart.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: So we had to look it up in our bank mobile app and only at that point, after we had typed in that information, could we hit pay.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: Well, imagine if that bill came with a QR code at the bottom.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: We pick up our mobile phone that's in our hand all the time anyway.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: We use face ID to get into our bank's mobile app.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: We scan the QR code, we're presented with the name of who we're paying, the amount we're paying, and we're done.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: We just hit confirm Our better user experience and if the money can move instantly, that eliminates a ton of risk on both sides of the transaction.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: So I mean, even this morning we looked at our banks mobile app and the transaction isn't there.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: It's not even pending.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: We got a receipt last night from the Department of Licensing that says we paid $467 on November 2nd, but our banks mobile app on November 3rd doesn't show that our balance is $467 less.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: So that bill not only had a QR code but one that initiated an instant payment.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: The Department of Licensing would have gotten our money last night in their bank account and that amount would have been deducted from our bank account last night.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: So we would know exactly how much we have available to spend today.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: And because that that's a transaction that's going by ACH, which usually takes a few days, so the Department of Licensing has to hope that in a few days when the money is really moved, that we still have it to pay them.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: And I mean the other scenario I think about a lot is imagine we have $500 balance in our joint checking account and I pay this $467 bill one night without telling my husband.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: He goes out the next day and pays a contractor $500 who's working on a remodel, because he thinks that's what the balance is in our account.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I mean you can just see that instant payment solves for all these types of problems and QR codes can make it easy for these instant payments to happen.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, really, you're talking about removing some of the friction in the transaction.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Do you feel like that's a huge trend that we're going to see over the next couple of years?
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: I just think the merchants and the billers are going to figure out what they need to do to incent people to pay that way.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: So it's going to be a combination of OK, it's way better for the merchant and the biller to receive an instant payment, just in terms of efficiency and lower risk, and get their money instantly.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: We do need to change consumer behavior here, because we do like to get our credit card rewards, but everyone's kind of playing around with what's the amount that's going to be needed to move people to that form of payment.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: And that's where the QR code comes in, because it does really eliminate the friction there, right?
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Because for people to pay by bank either ACH or instant payments I have to provide my bank account routing number.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I don't like to do that.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: I do that as little as I have to, because it's anybody that gets ahold of that can pull money out of my account.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: So, anyway, that's really where the QR comes in to enable that trend, because it makes it very simple for merchant, biller and the consumer to have an instant payment transaction without having to disclose that information.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Well, let's circle back to Matera.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: So we've talked about this, qr codes and sort of where we are today and some of the trends.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: So how does that all go back to what Matera is doing today and plans to do in the future?
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: So I would say in Brazil we're continuing to do what we do best.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's provide core banking and instant payment solutions to the market.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: So our QR code solution is embedded in our PICS instant payment solution in Brazil.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: In the US, our focus is on solutions that drive instant payment adoption.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: So if you're a financial institution that has invested in offering instant payments RTP and or FedNow we have solutions that help your customers initiate instant payment transactions.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: So QR code payments is one of our core solutions.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: We have a wallet as a service product.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: We also have a light ledger called Digital Twin for banks and credit unions that might want to offer instant payments, but they have a legacy core that can't authorize transactions 24-7, which is required for instant payments, and they just the thought of swapping out their core.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: I mean that's a pretty daunting task.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: So we also have a light ledger that helps US financial institutions with that challenge.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Well, this has been fascinating conversation.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: I love when we talk about sort of newer technology.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: The technology is not necessarily new, but the use cases are definitely new and interesting.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: So we've obviously covered a lot of ground on this topic.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up the show?
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people say it, but it is a super exciting time in payments and every market's different.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: So obviously instant payments took off like crazy, very quickly in Brazil.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: It's really different in the US.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: It's slower in the US.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: We realize that and no one knows when the inflection points going to happen in the US, when instant payments will accelerate.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: But we saw firsthand in Brazil financial institutions that were not ready with picks or related solutions and they lost a lot of commercial business as a result.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: So we look to the US and we know that for financial institutions here being ready with solutions, especially for commercial clients related to instant payments, and when instant payments becomes table stakes here, financial institutions with proven solutions to enable all sorts of use cases are going to be well positioned in payments going forward.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Well, thanks for sharing that.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: I think that's a great summary, so I appreciate that, and thank you so much for being on the show.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: I know your time is very valuable, so thank you so much for being here today.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate it.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Greg.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: And to all your listeners out there.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: I thank you for your time as well, and until the next story.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this episode in our special series Be Solid, brought to you by NMI, the fully integrated payment solution built to scale.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: For more information on any time, anywhere, payments and this episode, please visit nmicom.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Forward slash resources, forward slash podcast.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: And remember, in a world full of squares and stripes, be solid.