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Understanding Bullying: Equipping Families for Tough Conversations · The Defender Podcast

• 0:03
  Herbie Newell: Welcome to the defender podcast, a resource to help mobilize and equip the body of Christ to manifest the gospel to orphans and vulnerable children. This podcast is a ministry of Lifeline Children Services, and I'm your host, Herbie Newell.
• 0:18
  Dr. Rick Morton: Alright. So we, today, get to have the opportunity to have a conversation with Angela Maines. If you're, somebody who is fairly regular to The Defender Podcast, Angela is no stranger. She is our Director of Clinical Services here at Lifeline. I give you a different title, I think, every single time that you're on the podcast.
• 0:40
  But the truth is she leads our counseling and parent coaching services and is, really the person who is kind of at the hub of all the things that we do in post adoptive services for families. And so she is she's great for us to be able to talk about this subject and a whole lot of others. So Angela, welcome back to the podcast.
• 1:03
  Angela Mains: Thank you for having me.
• 1:04
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yeah. So, well, you know, we get to talk about bullying today. It's like the subject everybody wants to talk about, right? But school year being underway, you know, where we are in the school year, the reality is that there are a lot of families that are that are facing issues in and around bullying, difficult interactions with their kids at school. And we, a lot of times, just don't know what to do with those.
• 1:33
  And especially I think for a lot of us, the complexity of what it means to deal with bullying, what bullying is, all that sort of stuff, has, just increased exponentially over the last couple of decades. And the emphasis upon and the awareness of is much greater, social media, all the things. And so we've got a lot to talk about. But, maybe let's start off and just why don't you set a context and give us a good definition of what bullying is?
• 2:05
  Angela Mains: Yeah, I think that's a great question because it's a little bit of a pet peeve of mine when any negative interaction between 2 kids at school ends up being defined as bullying. And at the end of the day, kids learn about relationships through those peer conflicts that come up. And they are sometimes challenging to navigate, but they're an important part of their developmental growth and how you figure out how to be in relationship with people long term.
• 2:28
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yeah.
• 2:29
  Angela Mains: So hiccups come in any relationship. Right? We spend in a healthy environment. We're spending a third of our time being well attuned to one another, a third of our time being in rupture, and a third of our time being in repair. And that's typical.
• 2:41
  That's healthy. So when those normal rupture and repairs come up, I feel I think that it's important not to necessarily label those bullying because that tends to escalate things very quickly. Yep. So understanding that bullying often is it's the result of something that's a ongoing pattern. It's not one negative interaction.
• 3:01
  It is a repeated pattern of negative interactions. And typically, it involves some sort of power imbalance, whether it's a cool kid and a not so cool kid or an older kid that's bigger and stronger and a younger kid. But there's some sort of power imbalance that's happening there within that relationship where there's this ongoing repeated pattern of offense that's taking place.
• 3:23
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yeah. And I think it's, you know, to even to to even nuance that a little further is to to dig into that idea of power imbalance because that's not always obvious either.
• 3:33
  Angela Mains: Right. And you
• 3:34
  Dr. Rick Morton: know, and sometimes I think we make assumptions about who's, you know, who's in the driver's seat or who is, you know, who's driving, the tone of an interaction or, you know, even driving the response to it. And so I think there's a sense in which bullying at some level, it's ongoing but also there is an attempt to harm. There's an attempt to diminish.
• 3:58
  Angela Mains: There's something where,
• 4:01
  Dr. Rick Morton: you know, where someone is being hurt as a result of and there's an intent to hurt. And I think that's where that's where we get twisted up in this sometimes is that there are negative interactions that our kids have and, honestly, repeated negative interactions. But there's not really an intent to harm, and there's not really an injustice that's there. And unfortunately, those things have to be dealt with. Right?
• 4:29
  Angela Mains: Like that's
• 4:30
  Dr. Rick Morton: part of that rupture and repair cycle that you, you know, that you talk about. But that's also not necessarily bullying and it's not necessarily what the resources and tools and awarenesses and all the things that we talk about are actually pointed toward.
• 4:47
  Angela Mains: Right. Absolutely. And it and it does get a little more complicated because the manner in which people go about bullying has changed quite a bit. Like, we think about these, you know, the media portrays the big kid that comes around and is is mean and harmful to to smaller children. And it can be something like that, but it's not always like that.
• 5:08
  Sometimes it is a manipulation and more of a subtle, somebody who's a little better at cultivating or making another kid look bad Mhmm. And not showing kind of maybe what they've done to contribute to it or even the world of of social media and cyberbullying, where kids are getting really creative and a lot braver about saying things behind the screen and behind the keyboard, things they might not do in person. And the difference there too is you don't get that direct feedback loop in the moment of seeing what that person's face looks like. You have the the protection of the screen. Yep.
• 5:44
  And so then there's also this the it's not always this overt, I'm mean to you. Sometimes, it's a I'm going to intentionally leave you out. Right? So people who are in pictures but maybe don't get tagged. It's gotten very subtle.
• 6:00
  Or I'm gonna open a message and leave you on Rhett. You know, like and again, I don't necessarily think that's bullying in every situation. But there are some much more nuanced elements that can be factored into that aren't as obvious, like what you're talking about, where where it becomes much more subtle and much more hard to put your finger on even in an interaction.
• 6:22
  Dr. Rick Morton: Well, and I think I think part of the part of the reality is is that, that we as parents are somewhat walking into uncharted territory because that's not the world that we learn to build relationships in. And and so our kids who are, you know, we think we're really adept at, you know, the cyber world, but our kids have grown up never knowing anything else. And it's just super different.
• 6:48
  Angela Mains: It is. There's a whole, like, subculture in the way that they define their relationships. That's very interesting. Things that we probably wouldn't think twice about or care about. You know, we've always joked that a text message is an invitation to a conversation that you can accept or decline.
• 7:06
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 7:06
  Angela Mains: But kids don't see it that way.
• 7:07
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 7:08
  Angela Mains: It's like if you're ignoring me, then you're rejecting me. So it just they they do. They live in a very different world and so much of that was even exacerbated with COVID and having no other way to interact.
• 7:20
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 7:21
  Angela Mains: So then even being in person sometimes brings other challenges. That, again, those misinterpretations that maybe are being defined as bullying are really just we don't actually know how to be together in person.
• 7:34
  Dr. Rick Morton: Well and I think, you know, like, you and I can really nerd out on a conversation and go pretty deep into the whys and wherefores behind. But but there's some basics, I think, that that we can come back to to, you know, just really be able to kind of understand the playing field. And so one of those would be like even what are the different sort of categories or types? You alluded to cyberbullying, but there but there are other ways that, you know, kids typically are bullied. Yes, absolutely.
• 8:00
  Like it can be physical and we talked about that. It can be verbal that
• 8:02
  Angela Mains: bullied. Yes. Absolutely. Like, it can be physical, and we talked about that. It can be verbal that pulls in name calling and teasing, taunting.
• 8:06
  Could even be sexual comments. Right? Things that kinda border into harassment. Mhmm. And social, spreading rumors, embarrassing somebody in public, We're being purposefully exclusive.
• 8:19
  And then, again, that that crosses. You can see some of these can cross multiple categories.
• 8:24
  Dr. Rick Morton: Sure.
• 8:25
  Angela Mains: And at the end of the day, the bullying is meant to make an environment feel unsafe for someone else. Right? It takes away their sense of security and safety. And so for our kids, especially, who have a hard time having an established sense of safety, bullying can feel more profound and more impactful than maybe a kid who's grown up in a household where they've been well supported their whole life, and it may not have the same level of impact on that type of a child as it might somebody who's come from a hard place.
• 8:54
  Dr. Rick Morton: One of the things that kinda occurs to me, you know, in even what you and I talked about to this point is we've we've kind of almost tended, even in our examples and the way we're talking about, we've talked about adolescents and we've focused really in on kind of the adolescent world. That may not be the world that folks that are, you know, that are listening to the podcast, it may be that they have an elementary school child or even a, you know, even a child that's in kindergarten or something like that. And bullying can happen anywhere along that spectrum. I think one of the things that also makes this difficult is that many times we have kids that are out of step with their peer group because developmentally they're not really running in, you know, kind of in the same space and the same pace as the kids that are around them. And so they become easy targets sometimes when somebody's looking for a way to get the attention off of themselves.
• 9:50
  Those kids get, you know, become, you know, really easy pickings quite honestly. Yeah. And so your mom and dad and you're out there and we're gonna generalize and probably not necessarily put an age range on this, but you believe your child is being bullied. Mhmm. What do you do?
• 10:07
  Angela Mains: Yeah. It's a great question. Right? And this is obviously a question that I think probably our schools and administration are really struggling through. And I think I've taken steps.
• 10:16
  That's why you've seen some different things develop and buzzwords like social emotional learning and different things pop up because they're trying to help it from the systemic level. I think sometimes, inadvertently, different athletic competition coaches can foster this without meaning to because they think it's going to get a better performance out of somebody. And at the end of the day, the reality is you don't have to we wanna teach our kids that they can be resilient and they can compete without that feeling like it has to take away from somebody else. You know, you talked about different developmental ages. And so it's like you've got that 6 to 11 and then obviously 12 to 18.
• 10:54
  Like, that's the range that we're gonna see bullying. Right? That's the the ranges that kids are in school. Right. So during that younger elementary ages, like, they're trying to figure out how do they contribute to their world?
• 11:05
  How do they make their world a better place? Can they? Or are they gonna, like, not quite measure up? And so helping kids navigate bullying just from a philosophical level of we're trying to help our kids be able to resolve, you know, to quote Erickson, all of those different developmental tasks. He's one example of what that can look like.
• 11:27
  But starting with trust versus mistrust. So as you're bringing kids into your home, you're gonna hear us feel like a broken record. But it starts with trust versus mistrust. It goes up then to that shame and doubt versus autonomy. We want them to feel autonomous, like I have will.
• 11:41
  And that gets really challenging because that's like the no's. Right? Like, I that's where you see a lot of the defiance kind of pop up. And so with our kids that enter a home later, they're having to rework through some of these at later ages.
• 11:55
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 11:55
  Angela Mains: And so as you're growing them up, helping them navigate to find that autonomy, to find the ability to have some initiative and be able to see how they can make changes in the world to get to a place where they can have that industry versus feeling inferior is going to be very helpful in building the resiliency we're looking for in kids in general, whether they walk through hard things or not. Like, we live in a fallen world.
• 12:20
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 12:20
  Angela Mains: None of us can walk through this world unscathed. So helping foster that sense and having that connection that we really probably talk about so people are probably tired of hearing about
• 12:31
  Dr. Rick Morton: it Right.
• 12:32
  Angela Mains: Is what fosters the ability to really listen well to your kid to understand what is happening at school. Is this a momentary, like, conflict with the kid? Again, like you said, even conflict with a specific kid can be repeated. Yep. But it it may not be the same kind of power imbalance and it may not be intentional.
• 12:54
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 12:54
  Angela Mains: So helping navigate and nuance that. Because I think when you do end up with the systemic ongoing, then you need to pull in teachers at times. Like, there's not a one size fits all. But if you're seeing that your child is not capable of resolving this conflict or the child in question isn't able isn't responding to those attempts, then we do have to pull in the other adult authorities in the in the picture.
• 13:19
  Dr. Rick Morton: Well, I think just from experience, I think and this is what I'm about to say is not a, like, it's not a cure all. But I do think this idea of of being mistimed developmentally really plays into it a lot with the kids that we that we minister to.
• 13:35
  Angela Mains: Yes.
• 13:35
  Dr. Rick Morton: And and so as a parent, the role that you can play, probably most prominently, is to be an advocate and a reminder for the other adults around your child that that's a reality.
• 13:49
  Angela Mains: Absolutely.
• 13:49
  Dr. Rick Morton: Because because one of the things that is that's going on is it is probably not it may not honestly, it may not be obvious to you all the time and it's certainly not obvious to the teachers and coaches and other people that are that are around your kids that they're lagging behind in some things developmentally. And so physically they look like everybody else or they look close enough like everybody else that there's not this, you know, obvious thing. But if you know, you use some of Erickson's stages and so if you're, you know, if you have a child, adolescent or pre adolescent, and everybody around them is thinking about identity. Everybody around them is trying to figure out who they are and who everybody else is and to like understand that in the world. But your child is stuck and they're back with, you know, in that industry versus inferiority thing.
• 14:46
  So they're still trying to work through, am I capable? Can I do? You know, am I able to do? And if they're being labeled by the people around them for what they can't do, if their lack of capability is being used as a thing to define them, like that can be used to bully.
• 15:06
  Angela Mains: Absolutely.
• 15:06
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right? Yeah. And so, but I think, you know, getting underneath that and also beginning to sort of put some pressure and coach teachers and people around to help other parents realize what's going on.
• 15:21
  Angela Mains: Right.
• 15:22
  Dr. Rick Morton: Because I think the, you know, the reality is, you know, other parents may not think it's a big deal because their kids who are at an appropriate level of development are experiencing things that are very normal. And so when they're picking on your kids for for something that is that is abnormal but seems like it's not that big a deal, maybe an incredibly big deal for a child that's that's lagging behind in their development. And so I think that's really complex.
• 15:52
  Angela Mains: It is. And it feels that feels more like a bullying situation to the person experiencing it than it might to the other adults and people in that other child's world.
• 16:01
  Dr. Rick Morton: A 100 100%. Yeah. So so this is the commercial and this is where I get to the complexity of that. You listen to that and there are probably some of you that are listening to it that are just bewildered, right? Like you're looking at it and you're going, I don't feel competent to unwind a hairball like that.
• 16:17
  I don't feel competent to speak into something like that. I don't know what to do. That's where you need to think about potentially involving other people in your journey. That's where a good therapist is worth their weight in gold. That's where a parent coach can be incredibly helpful.
• 16:35
  That's where, you know, even the things we do in Bridge and in working with and we try not to use the term social emotional learning because of all the, you know, all the baggage that's packed in that outside of our context. But the truth is it's about putting who we are and what we feel into what we're trying to learn and looking at kids more holistically. And we certainly wanna do that because that's the way God looks at us. But thinking about, okay, what's happening in the learning environment that's keeping my child from learning? Because that honestly is a big part of the bullying equation as well.
• 17:10
  Angela Mains: Absolutely. Because you cannot learn if you don't feel safe.
• 17:13
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right. And so if you've got a child who struggles with fight, flight, or freeze and so they're, you know, they're kind of triggered and on alert a lot because they don't feel safe, and then and then we're doing something to compromise their safety even more, all we're doing is putting them in a place where they can't learn. And that's what they go to school to do. And so I think sometimes as parents when we're facing indifference and this is the place where I you know maybe I turn a little bit of you know, I turn to the other side a little bit and say, Yeah, everything that we see around us isn't bullying, but sometimes our kids need advocacy even when the situation doesn't fit the definition. And so the thing to watch for as a parent is the learning environment or is the social environment that my child is in, is it compromised to the point that that they can't learn and they can't do what it is that they're supposed to do there?
• 18:16
  They can't they can't effectively be a part of a sports team and learn the skills and learn the social dynamics that they're supposed to. You know, those sorts of things. And when when you see that as an adult, that's when you gotta do something.
• 18:31
  Angela Mains: Yes.
• 18:32
  Dr. Rick Morton: You know?
• 18:33
  Angela Mains: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we we've been talking about this conversation from the perspective primarily of our kids being bullied.
• 18:42
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yep.
• 18:43
  Angela Mains: And I think the uncomfortable side that also can be true is when our child is the bully.
• 18:49
  Dr. Rick Morton: Woah. Oh, that never happens.
• 18:52
  Angela Mains: Our
• 18:52
  Dr. Rick Morton: kids are angels.
• 18:54
  Angela Mains: Absolutely. And again, you know, with either side of this, I think the another important thing to keep in mind is that neither child involved is is evil or is demonized. Like, I I think we have to keep ourselves from demonizing either party. Because at the end of the day, that that old adage, that phrase, hurt people, hurt people. Mhmm.
• 19:16
  And so it's kind of going back to, like, okay. What might be going on for that child that's coming across or exerting force in such a way? What's making them feel like they need to do that? Yeah. Because I think at the end of the day, like, they're trying to figure out how to navigate these stages and to figure out how growing up is hard.
• 19:35
  Yeah. Like, childhood is really we we like to think about it as being this carefree time, but it actually is very challenging because you don't have a
• 19:43
  Dr. Rick Morton: It's getting harder.
• 19:44
  Angela Mains: It is. It is getting way harder. So, like, understanding that neither child involved in an equation is unredeemable and and seeing them through that eyes of compassion and grace and understanding. Like, grace, 1, doesn't mean that you let it go. Doesn't mean you don't deal with it.
• 20:02
  But it does mean you have to be careful not to inadvertently bully the child in the midst of trying to help Mhmm. Protect your child. Right? Like or vice versa. Right?
• 20:14
  Because it's very easy at any given time one of us could have a child on either side of that coin.
• 20:20
  Dr. Rick Morton: I still reject that premise,
• 20:22
  Angela Mains: by the way.
• 20:22
  Dr. Rick Morton: There's no way. No. No. Really, I mean, for real. We've been we've been laughing about this off air is is the fact that it's, that's a reality that, all of us will probably face at some point, whether we think we will or not, is that our kids will be on the wrong end of, you know, inappropriate social interaction somehow.
• 20:44
  And it may not be it may not fit the definition of bullying. It may not be ongoing. It may not be purposive. It may not be, you know, there may not be an intent to harm necessarily. But the truth is, like, our kids don't come pre wired knowing how to interact socially.
• 21:05
  Angela Mains: That's right. And when you have regulation issues, which most of our kids do, then it can feel like bullying, right? There's anger outbursts. And sometimes, I mean, unpopular opinion. I've seen it where there is intent, right?
• 21:18
  There is this sense of I'm, you know, and you have that negative inner working model of I am on my own and I can't trust anybody but me and I'm gonna make the world do what I want it to do and I'm gonna use whatever means necessary, sometimes you do see some very intentional and, shady underhanded behavior come out. And that is a hard thing and the thing that elicits a lot of shame in us as parents.
• 21:44
  Dr. Rick Morton: Well, and let's go there for a second. Because I think, you know, to kind of bring something in from our friends, Jim and Lynn Jackson and connected families, you know, one of the things we've heard our friend Lynn Beckett drill to us over and over and over again is the question I think that you have to ask is, what's going on in me? Absolutely. You know, and you were winding up to that a minute ago and what you were saying that the reality is that part of the complexity of dealing with all this is it evokes strong emotion in us. And so when our children are harmed, it evokes strong emotion.
• 22:23
  When our children are harming someone, that shame is real. That, you know, that feeling like, you know, the world is staring at you and all eyes are on you and judgment is coming down upon you is real.
• 22:38
  Angela Mains: Right. And I'm a failure as a parent if my kid is out there victimizing other kids.
• 22:41
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right and we have to understand that kids, even with challenges, kids even with developmental delays, kids all the complexity that we're dealing with in this, or maybe you're not dealing with that complexity, doesn't really matter, that our kids fundamentally are adults in the process of becoming. They're not there yet.
• 23:04
  Angela Mains: That's right. They're not yet.
• 23:06
  Dr. Rick Morton: And so and so the so one thing that you can say is, is if you have a child that is the worst bully in the world, if they're, you know, quite frankly, on the way to being a sociopath, they're on the way. They're not there yet. That's right. And so there's hope. And, you know, and I think part of also what you have to back up and realize for this is, is that God has placed you in the position to be the parent of this child.
• 23:37
  And on some level, if God didn't think you were adequate and worthy, God wouldn't have put you in the place of being the parent of this child. And so as much as we may be freaked out in the middle of this, as much as we may be feeling like we're over our heads, as much as we may be feeling strong emotions ourselves, part of the spiritual discipline in the middle of all this is to stop and to take a deep breath and to realize that God is for you and that the situation that you're facing is not hopeless and it's not impossible on your side.
• 24:14
  Angela Mains: That is so that is right. Like, I think the the tendency for us as parents to catastrophize when we see these things and to kind of see how it plays out 10 years, 20 years from now. And it's like, okay. But that like, been there, done that. I've done that as a parent.
• 24:29
  Right? Like, looking horrified at something my child has done and worried like, okay. I've joked like, well, hopefully, we're not raising serial killers. Right? Like, you know, like, if that's the bar, I'm okay.
• 24:42
  But some days, you may not be as confident in that. And I mean, I say it jokingly, but also, I know there's moments of real fear for our parents out there on that front. And at the end of the day, like, this is, like you said, they're becoming. They're not there yet. The whole point of childhood is to learn and is to navigate these things and is to be able to be that organizing principle for them as their parent to help guide and direct them.
• 25:08
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 25:09
  Angela Mains: Right? Discipline is discipleship. You might even say that in the process of our kids and helping support our kids in becoming, that God might be doing more in us than he is even in our kids, right, as he continues to refine our hearts. Because parenting is really hard.
• 25:26
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yep.
• 25:26
  Angela Mains: And it is an act and step of faith every day to figure out how do I walk through this, God, in a way that is honoring to you, is helping to teach, but also is is dealing with the stuff in me that's coming up that's not as helpful. And we all have it. Right? Like, that whole idea of being, what's going on in me is there so that we can help be safe for our kids so that they can do the work they need to do. And one of the things you mentioned, Linen Gym, and they've got some great material that helps connect those dots of how do I repair when I have done something wrong, right?
• 26:01
  And so that no matter what end of the bullying scenario your child may be on, figuring out how to repair. This is the the work of growing up that helps us know how to navigate relationships. Yeah. I think it's really tempting sometimes as parents too to want to like protect and pull our kids away from the world so that they can't be harmed. But when we do that, we handicap them more because they don't have opportunities to walk through these experiences
• 26:44
  Dr. Rick Morton: you know, like this is why I believe I mean, our kids have to learn how to negotiate hard stuff.
• 26:50
  Angela Mains: Yes.
• 26:51
  Dr. Rick Morton: And I think modern parenting becomes about there's almost an expectation that's placed upon us that our job is to keep our kids from hard things. And like one of my, you know, one of my big hobby horses that I ride around here, and you're gonna laugh when I say it, but like creating sports opportunities where kids don't lose.
• 27:10
  Angela Mains: Right. Right.
• 27:12
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's every
• 27:14
  Angela Mains: hey. Everybody gets a trophy.
• 27:16
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right. I hate to break it to you, but everybody's not a winner. And part of the journey of life is learning how to lose, how to lose well, how to lose gracefully. And what are you gonna do when you face a setback? What are you gonna do when you face a loss?
• 27:31
  Yeah. And there is a sense in which we don't build resiliency Right. If we don't exercise the muscles that that help us to be resilient.
• 27:42
  Angela Mains: That's right. Because resiliency is being willing to take risks and fail and try again. Right. Like, that is resiliency. And so if we aren't allowing our kids to fail, if we aren't having these hiccups and these bumps in the road that they have to navigate and figure out how to take the next right step forward, then then how are they really growing as a human and an individual?
• 28:04
  And by they're never going to reach adulthood
• 28:07
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 28:07
  Angela Mains: If we don't allow them those opportunities.
• 28:09
  Dr. Rick Morton: Well, and I think for kids that come from hard places and have had, you know, really tough adverse experiences in their past, our tendency sometimes in parenting is to shield them from that because of what has happened that's been out of our control.
• 28:25
  Angela Mains: Yeah. We don't want to add anything more to
• 28:27
  Dr. Rick Morton: it. Right. And so we don't, like, we don't want to let them experience those things. We don't we don't wanna kind of put them in the place where we force them to work through those things. And so our wrestling then is that we try to become sufficiency for them.
• 28:47
  And y'all like this is just honest time. This is honest talk. That as a dad who's walked through this, that I had to come to grips with the fact at a point that I am not sufficient for my children.
• 29:02
  Angela Mains: Yeah. And you were never supposed to be.
• 29:05
  Dr. Rick Morton: No. And that's not God's plan. God's plan is that he would put us in a in a circumstance that we would get to live a life that would demonstrate to us that nothing but Jesus is sufficient, that nothing but what God planned and what God orchestrated is sufficient. And so I think the again the pressure talking about mom and dad in this is is that we, you know, we wanna come around and so, you know, mother lying, daddy lying starts to come out. We want to defend our kids in a way that we protect them from that hurt and we feel double burdened by that because of what already has occurred that we couldn't control until we wanna control what we can control even more.
• 29:52
  Angela Mains: Right. And in our controlling and putting that protective bubble around them, we don't mean to, but we actually are inflicting harm. And that's the hard, like, reality there. It's tough. It's tough to watch your kids suffer and be in pain.
• 30:08
  Yeah. That hurts us. Right? And
• 30:11
  Dr. Rick Morton: this is like, this has gone to a heavy direction. By the way, this isn't in the note, y'all. We're just we're riffing at this point. Both about to cry too. I think like here's the deep spiritual principle in the middle of it.
• 30:24
  God knows. God knows. We do not worship a God that doesn't understand the suffering of his child. And so some of like we have to realize that it is our brokenness, it is our sinfulness that causes us to want to run away from that. Because the example that we have in God our Father is that He endured that for our good.
• 30:57
  Yeah. And so understanding that sometimes and it's hard to know the line. It's hard to know when do you step in to protect and when do you allow your kids to build those muscles of resiliency. And I think that's where you seek prayer. That's where you, you know, that's where you're seeking wise counsel.
• 31:19
  That's where you're being attentive to who your kids are and their, you know, their health emotionally and spiritually in the midst of those things. But but I think being attuned to those things with your kids is so vitally important because without some struggle, we don't really build resilience.
• 31:40
  Angela Mains: That's right. That's right. And, you know, you know, our role as parents isn't to fix our child's problems. That's often what we wanna do.
• 31:51
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right.
• 31:52
  Angela Mains: We know the answers. Right. But our role is more to to be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind.
• 31:59
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yeah.
• 31:59
  Angela Mains: To be able to hold space and hear those uncomfortable feelings and to help organize and understand and reflect. Sometimes our kids don't know what they're feeling.
• 32:08
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right.
• 32:09
  Angela Mains: Especially with with their histories, they don't have the emotional intelligence to be able to label it. So, as we're listening, being able to say things like, wow, That really stinks. Like, that sounds like that was that was a really hard day. It really hurt your feelings when that happened. You feel, man, you feel bad.
• 32:26
  Or, wow. You acted out in anger and you hurt that kid and you maybe didn't mean to. And I think it's because you've got a lot of big feelings you don't know what to do with inside. You know, like, being able to reflect whatever side of the coin you're dealing with and not be dysregulated yourself by it. Right?
• 32:45
  Like, Lisa Dion has that saying of I'm gonna keep 1 foot firmly planted on the shore and 1 foot in the wave of emotion. Yeah. Right? We gotta feel enough with them but not be swept away by it that we can't help them Yeah. Be the structure, be the the psychological holding that they need in that moment, the emotional holding.
• 33:04
  And then once we've empathized and really sat with that, then we can help figure out with them how what do we need to do about this? And there's some collaborative problem solving that can come into play there.
• 33:17
  Dr. Rick Morton: And at the end of the day, they just need to know somebody has them.
• 33:21
  Angela Mains: That's right. Right.
• 33:22
  Dr. Rick Morton: Somebody's got them.
• 33:23
  Angela Mains: You're in it with them.
• 33:24
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right.
• 33:25
  Angela Mains: We had a situation at one point with one of our kids where, I mean, the situation was more about a teacher that was not kind, not helpful and really had to wrestle through. Like, do we get involved? Because it was a power imbalance. It was a repeated pattern. Also, like, is getting involved going to make this worse?
• 33:44
  Right. And navigating that with our child in a collaborative way to say, hey. This is really hard. How can we support you? We're contemplating.
• 33:56
  We're thinking about doing this. But allowing him to have a voice in the midst of that, and, you know, like you like we've said repeatedly, it's just not always cut and dry.
• 34:08
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yeah.
• 34:08
  Angela Mains: And so being willing to to navigate and ride those waves, to seek wise counsel, to to not be reactive in our response, and to really begin to show that ability to have a regulated response even when we're experiencing intense emotions in response. That's gonna model healthy interactions for our kids too.
• 34:31
  Dr. Rick Morton: And I'm gonna I'm gonna say something. This is something I'm learning. It's not something I've learned. I think I stink at this at times. But the truth is that our kids benefit, I think anybody in our lives, any of our significant relationships, benefit more not from what we do to protect those that we love.
• 34:55
  And I think sometimes we get lulled into the belief that if our reaction is intense enough, if our defense is good enough, then that's what's going to produce safety and security. And it's not what we do to or for or with someone else that brings security. It's what we do to and for and with them that brings security. And so it is that. How do we have them?
• 35:21
  How are we going to protect them? How are we going to how are we going to provide security for them? How are they okay with us even if they are not okay with anyone else? And that's hard because everything in our flesh wants to do the opposite. It wants to it wants to do the action.
• 35:43
  It wants to show how much we care. When in reality, I think turning it inward and and and focusing on, you know, focusing on our on our loved ones is that's the right place.
• 35:55
  Angela Mains: That's right. Learning it's hard. It's hard sometimes to learn to listen well, especially maybe when we're on the receiving end of that intense emotion and they're bringing that home. Like, I know that's a hard one for me. Right?
• 36:09
  And, you know, for for good reasons. But being able to, like, hold that.
• 36:14
  Dr. Rick Morton: All day, like, you have to be able to just take a little more when you get home. Right?
• 36:18
  Angela Mains: And it's so completely different. Right? Like, because it's my kid versus I mean, it's way easier to do with other people's kids.
• 36:25
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 36:25
  Angela Mains: You know, but when it's our kid and it feels like, again, controlling and being aware of what's going on in me Yeah. Because at the end of the day, there's personal things for me coming up in those interactions where maybe I feel insufficient or like I'm falling short or failing. And so just, again, that awareness. Right? Like, that insight into what's happening in me at this point.
• 36:48
  How do I calm that enough to be present for my kid and help see what is it that they really need right now? What is the developmental struggle that they need to navigate here? And how do I support them to do that well? How do I how do I help their environment to do that well? And that's that's really, at the end of the day, like, the best question.
• 37:10
  I mean, it's the philosophy and mindset we approach our kids with versus having the right answer of what to do in every situation. It's how do I think through what is it they really need to learn through this? Because needs change over time.
• 37:25
  Dr. Rick Morton: Like, so how do you know how do you know you're winning at this? Is maybe the and I'll
• 37:33
  Angela Mains: That's a great question.
• 37:34
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yeah. And no, but I but I think there is a sense in which when we're building relationship with our kids at a level that when they're having problems, they're open to work those problems with us.
• 37:51
  Angela Mains: Yeah. And I I mean, I think there's different stages. And you you said this a a little while ago. You know, some of those younger stages of development, they're really parent dependent.
• 38:03
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 38:03
  Angela Mains: But these stages that we're talking about, when you get to that 6 year old through 18, peers become a whole lot more prominent in helping them to navigate
• 38:13
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 38:13
  Angela Mains: Those stages of development. So at that point, we're hoping that we've established enough, in an ideal situation. We've established enough connection and relationship that our kids are going to come to us for help and support. And sometimes they might. Right.
• 38:27
  Right? So what I hear you saying is kind of that, I'm going to go back to the attunement, rupture, repair, right? Like, if those are the 3rd, like a third at the time you may be in rupture with your kid, right, where they may or may not want to. But being okay and content, I think this is the piece that I see some parents get frustrated about is they wanna force the conversations.
• 38:49
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 38:49
  Angela Mains: And the child isn't really ready to talk about it. And so respecting that your child is actually an autonomous individual human that ultimately is gonna have to take responsibility for their own choices and their timeline of being ready to talk about something may not be our timeline. But being able to put out those, hey. I'm here when you're ready.
• 39:10
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 39:10
  Angela Mains: Right? Like, those moments of even when there's ruptures, there's repair. Right? The toxic part comes when there's rupture and no repair. So it may not always be the short term.
• 39:20
  Kids are coming in to talk to me every day. They may wanna wrestle through something on their own and they need to.
• 39:26
  Dr. Rick Morton: Yeah.
• 39:26
  Angela Mains: But, ultimately, at some point, knowing they know they can come to you when they need to.
• 39:31
  Dr. Rick Morton: Well, I think the fishing expedition that I was kind of going on with you there is, again, when in doubt, work on connection.
• 39:38
  Angela Mains: Absolutely. That yes. That was I said it really long and gone out. You don't like when it's outward connection.
• 39:44
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right. And I think so
• 39:45
  Angela Mains: because you keep the relational train moving without it getting completely derailed or in a head on collision.
• 39:51
  Dr. Rick Morton: And and so, you know, moms and dads that, you know, that are moms and dads through adoption or or through foster care that hear this stuff and training and all that, like it really just is true.
• 40:03
  Angela Mains: It is.
• 40:04
  Dr. Rick Morton: And so when you don't know what else to do, connect.
• 40:07
  Angela Mains: That's right.
• 40:08
  Dr. Rick Morton: Because what you want is in that moment when they don't know what to do, like what they learned to do is to connect as well.
• 40:18
  Angela Mains: Yes. Connect and I mean, that connection, that connection with empathy is so crucial. Right? And that's what breeds vulnerability, which is what we want in our kids. We want them to feel safe enough that they can be vulnerable and share these hard things.
• 40:33
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right. Yeah. And the world's a tough place to learn to do that.
• 40:36
  Angela Mains: It is. And we've yeah. We've gotten off track, but there are beautiful places. And just even adding in not being threatened if your child is seeking connection and support through other safe adults in their world.
• 40:51
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right.
• 40:52
  Angela Mains: Because like you said a little while ago, we were never meant to do it by ourselves. We need a village. We need people. I need those, these leaders, those teachers, those pastors, those, like whoever it is, small group leaders, coaches pouring into because there are things they're gonna hear from them that are gonna look different and those aren't a threat.
• 41:11
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 41:12
  Angela Mains: Those aren't a threat to our connection with them because ultimately nobody else is mom and dad.
• 41:15
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right.
• 41:16
  Angela Mains: Nobody else has shown up in those ways.
• 41:18
  Dr. Rick Morton: Right. And the fact is that they're gonna get those influences somewhere.
• 41:21
  Angela Mains: They are.
• 41:22
  Dr. Rick Morton: And so building those healthy connections, helping kids to find those, you know, good friends and significant other adults and people is just so crucial to building the foundation that, you know, that we want to find for them.
• 41:35
  Angela Mains: That's right. You know, it's funny. I know we're wrapping up, but in, like, just contemplation, thinking deeply about different things, learning about things like the Enneagram, for example, and seeing like every single number on the Enneagram has that childhood message that's like, it's negative. It's a negative childhood message. Right?
• 41:59
  And so looking at that and thinking, like, is there truly a way that we can parent that our kids don't walk away from childhood with that negative childhood message. I don't care if they're from a hard place or if they were born to you. And at the end of the day, the answer is that's not really possible or feasible. But even having that negative message, it's showing their need for Christ. Right?
• 42:21
  Like, to pull it back to kinda what you were saying a little bit ago. Like, there is no way for us to parent our kids and we shouldn't. Right? Our insufficiency is leaving that door open. One that that having enough there's that that, like, fine line.
• 42:36
  Like, we want our kids to know they can have us and have our support and connection and that we're gonna be there so that they know they can trust this unseen God. But at the same time, we will never be sufficient enough for them and we're not supposed to be. Because if we were, they would never see a need for God in their world.
• 42:54
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right.
• 42:54
  Angela Mains: And so that's the beauty in the midst of this is none of us need to be perfect. That the areas and the shortcomings that we have, like, that is where God is going to show up and show out for our kids.
• 43:07
  Dr. Rick Morton: That's right. And we want to be here to help too. And I think part of the, you know, part of the reality of what we've built here at Lifeline in our post services is we want to we want to walk alongside families. And so that's why we have parent coaching, that's why we have bridge, that's why we have a counseling practice so that we can come effectively alongside, you know, families. And so I think sometimes when we're in the place that we don't know what to do, that's not a magic bullet.
• 43:36
  But what it is is bringing bringing somebody else in who's able to be a little more objective and sometimes to hold a mirror up to help you see yourself better, sometimes to help you see your situation better, but really to just lead us to be able to make good choices and good decisions. And ultimately to be able to focus on God's place in the middle of all of it. We always want to, you know, to point to that. And so Angela Maines, it's always good. Y'all, we have these kind of conversations like all the time and that's one of the fun things about getting what we get to do, what we get to do.
• 44:12
  And so I just, you know, I wanna tell you that we pray for you as our listening audience. We pray, for our families and the folks that we're, you know, that we're deeply connected to. And just pray that God will give you wisdom and that God will give you peace in the middle of the storm as we deal with things like bullying that none of us want to, but all of us will. And that we know that ultimately we serve a God, who is able and who equips us for every good work. And so that in that we can trust.
• 44:45
  And so we hope that this has been a profitable discussion. If you'd like to reach out to us, if you'd like to continue it, we're here. You can find Angela, you can find me, you can find the rest of our team at lifelinechild.org and we want to thank you for joining us again on the Defender Podcast and we'll be right back here again next week as we take on another topic around ministry to children and families and God's desire for us to bring the gospel to bear in the lives, in the life of every child, no matter where they come from and no matter their circumstances.
• 45:22
  Herbie Newell: Thanks for listening to The Defender Podcast. If you enjoy making this podcast a part of your weekly routine, we'd love for you to take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the Defender Podcast to make it easier for more people to find. For more information on how you and your church can partner with Lifeline, visit us at lifelinechild.org. If you want to connect with me, please visit herbynewell.com. Follow us at lifeline on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter by searching for Lifeline Child.
• 45:50
  You can email us directly at info at lifeline child dot org. Beloved, will you allow god to use the gospel to you to impact the life of a child? Please contact us because we are here to defend the fatherless. We'll see you again next week for the Defender podcast.