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Guest Podcast: Interviewing 650 Entrepreneurs, Here is What The Most Successful Had In Common (That One Time) · Success Story with Scott Clary

• 0:00
  People that build billion dollar companies, they're not level-headed people.
• 0:05
  Today, on that one time, I'm joined by Scott D. Cleary.
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  Scott is a seasoned entrepreneur, content creator, and the host of Success Stories podcast,
• 0:14
  one of the premier entrepreneur and business podcasts in the world.
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  In my mind, if someone else has figured it out, I can figure it out.
• 0:22
  It's not complicated. It's just, it just requires patience.
• 0:25
  What for you would you say emotion plays in business?
• 0:29
  The most useful asset in sales would be empathy, because that allows you to give a shit about
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  the person that you're selling to, which is really how you sell.
• 0:36
  I've worked with content creators. I've worked with business people.
• 0:39
  I've worked with people that do a lot of like spiritual work.
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  How they frame the stories is how people begin to change their behaviour.
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  If I was going to put all my energy into one channel, I'd put it into YouTube.
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  Like, I don't think TikTok is good for content.
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  What's the line do you think that you need to tow between being hard and being graceful?
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  It's a good question. I mean, that makes still some of these questions.
• 1:01
  Go for it, I'll send you the list, bro.
• 1:03
  It's a very good question.
• 1:05
  With millions of followers across his various social media and marketing platforms,
• 1:09
  Scott has made a name for himself as a thought leader in business, entrepreneurship,
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  decision making, and personal growth.
• 1:17
  In this episode, you'll learn how to create content that resonates, navigate business
• 1:21
  challenges with the level head and leverage storytelling to build trust with your audience.
• 1:26
  So I think you'll really enjoy this conversation with Scott D. Clare.
• 1:30
  If you do enjoy this episode, please give us a follow on YouTube or Spotify.
• 1:35
  Give the podcast a rating.
• 1:37
  Let us know what you're thinking as we are on a mission to get a thousand subscribers
• 1:41
  and every bit helps.
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  Scott, welcome to the podcast.
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  Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I'm excited to do this.
• 1:54
  Same here, same here. I want to get started by just saying like it's an honor to have you here.
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  You have an amazing podcast. You do some amazing work in multiple fields
• 2:07
  and being able to take the time to speak with me on something that is a lot smaller
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  than what you do. It goes a long way. Stop it.
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  I think we can have some very impactful conversations and I'm really, really excited to chat to you.
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  So yeah, thank you.
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  No, my pleasure. I'm excited. I'm excited for your podcast, journey, too.
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  You already had me.
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  You're already had me. When I was starting out, I did not have the equipment set up for you
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  had. So I'm very impressed. I'm 60 episodes in. We've done a bit now, so good.
• 2:44
  Good. No, I'm excited to do that.
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  Awesome. Well, so if you could give us an elevator picture of who you are,
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  what you're doing and how you're contributing to the world, what would that look like?
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  So the elevator pitch is, in my past life, I was an entrepreneur. I built businesses.
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  I tried to figure out how to create great products that people liked.
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  I sold a lot. I marketed a lot. But in my current life, I guess I'm a content creator,
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  a podcaster, still a entrepreneur because this is a business at the end of the day.
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  And I still definitely still build things. So my better half, she has a massive company that I
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  help out in. I have a couple of investments and a small portfolio. But ultimately, the focus is on
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  building out a massive podcast, building out a large personal brand. And I would say the
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  way that I try and give back to the world without sounding too pretentious is to
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  interview people that have figured life out and business out and whatever the domain of
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  expertise is. And unpack those lessons because I truly believe that life isn't actually as
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  difficult as it seems like it is for a lot of people, especially young people who are just trying
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  to figure out where they want to end up and what they want to build and what they want to do.
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  So I guess in a way, I'm creating content for my younger self. I'm creating content for
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  someone else who's out there who, again, just wants to learn from people who have figured it out.
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  And I think that the highest calling of most people on this earth is to actually teach and educate.
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  I think that unfortunately, just a lot of us get stuck in a routine and stressed about money
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  and bills and health and finances and relationships. But ultimately, I think that is actually the
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  calling that I'm trying to serve as a calling that I think most people would actually be the
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  most happy as trying to serve if everything else was taken care of. So I feel very grateful for that.
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  Great. I like the idea of you're doing content for your younger self because
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  very, you know, throughout this journey, there's been not many mentors and I've really leaned
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  into creators, leaned into podcasts. Like, my understanding of the world amplified in so
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  many different ways. The moment I came across him, Ferris' podcast. And that's where it all began.
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  And I probably spent thousands and thousands of hours just in this consuming business podcast,
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  consuming like mindset podcast, like spiritual, just all of these things. And it's framed my
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  thought process in a way that I couldn't have done, you know, with my local network. So yeah,
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  the younger self thing is extremely interesting. So that's why I think that the younger self thing
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  or the creating something for yourself, it may not even be your younger self. I think that's just
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  the best way to build a business. I think, again, a podcast is a business. And the product is the
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  interviews. And I have to make sure the product is the best. So how do I figure out the product?
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  Well, I have to make sure that the audience that wants a product. So I'm creating something for an
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  audience that I know exists. But I'm creating the most successful entrepreneurs on this planet are
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  people not that are stands for dropouts. But they're people who work in an industry for 20 or 30
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  years. And they see a problem in this industry that only they know because they've lived in this
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  industry their whole professional life. And then they build something to solve that problem and they
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  go sell it back into the industry. So that is how you win. That is how you, you know, when you talk
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  about entrepreneurs having a 95% failure rate. Well, that's when they're trying to solve a problem
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  for a cohort of people that they've never been a part of. But when you try and solve a problem
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  for a cohort that you are a part of, I would say, I don't know if it's an exact inverse
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  percentage. But I would assume that there's a much higher chance of success than failure because
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  you now know that the market needs your problem because nobody else is facing it. And is the
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  pain point that you've had to deal with time and time again. So I think that's just a smart way to
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  build. Build something that you use, consume, whatever. Yeah, it's funny. It's funny. You said that
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  because I have spent pretty much most of my successes in the past have come from scratching my own
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  itch. So the things that have worked are just like, I want this. I don't have this first for I will
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  make this. It's not even that complicated. Like comment, but common sense isn't common. And a lot
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  of people, they get enamored with whatever version of entrepreneurship they see online. And then
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  they try and create something that is disruptive and going to change the world and and and going to be
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  a billion dollar unicorn. I'm like, bro, why don't you just solve a problem that's going to make you
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  five million dollars a year? I mean, you know how happy you would be with five million dollars a
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  year with a business that you don't have to worry about IPOing or going public or 3000 employees,
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  like just build a business that makes you five, whatever, your ambitious 10 million dollars a year.
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  By the way, the multiple on that exit would still be phenomenal in the right industry.
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  So it doesn't even matter. It still makes just out of money. But yeah, I think that people just
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  have to understand what entrepreneurship should be rather than like this Hollywood highlight real
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  Silicon Valley bullshit version of entrepreneurship that's going to left. Like it's going to it's
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  going to leave people broke and stressed out and burnt out and not saying that you won't go
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  through failures because you will. But I'm just saying at least try to have the best possible
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  chance of success by not building something that's going to change humanity because you really
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  don't have to do that. That's not what entrepreneurship is for most people. So yes, vertically integrated
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  solutions are a very smart way to build business. The idea around just building something that
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  gives you a good quality of life is quite interesting. I think people say this romanticizing of
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  these big accesses, these big businesses. But a lot of the people that are successful in these
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  massive, massive businesses tend to do it because they are so driven by the mission alone that
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  they couldn't not let it grow to its maximum completion. Like there's something inside of them
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  that just will not let them stop. And they probably will be tortured at that level. I think at that
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  level, like so people that build billion dollar companies, not that there's anything wrong with
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  it, but they're not. They're not level headed people. It takes it takes it. I mean, there's definitely
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  an infusion of craziness at some point that makes you think that you are going to commit your life
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  to building this one thing that creates wealth far beyond where you can ever personally spend.
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  And I'm not like I'm I'm a die hard capitalist. Like don't get me right. I have no issue with
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  making money. But I mean, would I want, yeah, maybe be fun to build a billion dollar business.
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  But I've made a lot of money. And okay, so maybe the house would be upgraded. But there's like,
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  and by the way, outside of the money that I've made myself, because of the work that you and
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  me both do with this podcast, we get exposed to a lot of cool people. Yeah. And I know people that
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  have had significant exits. And it's not like their life changes dramatically. Like I would say
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  the difference between somebody having a 50 million dollar exit and a 100 million dollar.
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  I mean, their lives aren't that different. Really, on the day to day, their lives are not that
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  different. Like their house is a little bit different. I mean, even like somebody who's made
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  a 5 million dollar per year business, you're still a nice house. I mean, maybe you have like
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  a couple less cars and people that you drive on. Yeah. People that have that wealth, they don't
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  all use it the same either. Some of them don't need to have that much like in your face luxury
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  all the time. Some people do. Some people that make a lot less money look a lot more wealthy than
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  people that make a lot more money. You go to Miami. I mean, I'm in Miami right now. Like it looks
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  like everybody's killing it. But I know most people in New York that are rich probably are worth 10
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  X as much. And they look like they're way more conservative. They're way more low key.
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  Everybody in Miami's flaunting this that driving all these ridiculous cars, wearing 500,000
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  dollar watches. And they're probably worth a fraction of the wealth of some of the people I know in
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  New York that don't wear any of that shit or do any of that stuff. So I mean, it's not like
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  it's just what are you really chasing and what are you really hoping to accomplish? And I think
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  that you should figure that shit out first. Yeah. Before you start to worry about how much money
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  you're making or if you're going to buy a $500,000 RM. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It sounds like
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  you seem very level headed. And in our initial you seem like very clear thinking level headed.
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  Maybe it comes from all the conversations you've had over the years. It just frames your thinking
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  in a really interesting way. I have no doubt it's impacted me. Yeah. For sure. The thought that
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  pops into my mind in our rapid fire, we you spoke briefly about being in a very stable home.
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  So what are the context of your kind of early years that allow us to understand yours
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  a human and how you operate in the world now? So it's interesting because I did come from a very
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  stable home. So my dad worked for the government, which is pretty much as stable a career as you
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  can possibly get. I mean, it's the government. Yeah, that's true. That is very true. So he had
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  a cool job, but it was still for the government. So he worked in counterterrorism. So he worked
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  for CCCIS, which is like kind of like an amalgamation of CIA and FBI because we don't have as many
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  organizations as the US has. So he worked for CCCIS retired now. So he had a cool job, but very stable.
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  I mean, yes, the work is interesting, but you don't switch companies every couple of years,
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  you kind of start when you're like 20, 20 years old and then you retire when you're 70. So very
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  stable. Good salary, you know, good house. Mom work had myself, had my brother took time off
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  and went back to work after she worked at a university. She was as close to like a scientist as you
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  could probably get professionally. She worked in labs at university. So the super, super stable
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  upbringing, which was great and afforded me tons of opportunities. No issues there, but I think
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  that that was good because I didn't have like a lot of like trauma at all at really any growing
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  up, which is always good because that early life, the early stage trauma can really negatively
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  impact you when you're, you know, much older trying to get a job, trying to build a stable relationship.
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  So all good role models, all good shit. But what it did do is I looked at my dad looked at my mom,
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  looked at the pensions they were getting and looked at the environment they grew up in and very
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  quickly realized that that environment of safety and security and pensions and because when you work
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  for the government, basically you get 70% of your best years, right? So that means that you make 150K
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  for a couple years in a row. When you retire, you're going to get 70% of that till you die. And
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  no one really offered that kind of unless you wanted to go work for the government, nobody really
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  offered that. So I was like, okay, so how much money if I'm working for companies, do I have to
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  make and save up? That's going to be 70% of like $150,000 from say 65 until 100. And I'm like,
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  shit, that's a lot of money. So I'm like, okay, so that sort of informed my career decision,
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  which was either go work in tech or be a lawyer. There's kind of the two pathways and I'm like,
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  if I can't figure it out in tech and I can't make a lot of money in tech, then I'm going to go back
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  to law school because I need to make this bulk sum. But the path of going down and being in tech
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  and again, when I started out, I was in sales and I was killing it, I was making a ton of money,
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  probably more than most other careers when you were like, whatever. But when I started, I was like,
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  yeah, like 1920, very young. So I was doing fine. I'm like, okay, let me just see where I can take
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  this. And then tech, it was a it was a telco. I went through sort of like the different
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  markets. I kept moving up to larger markets, selling to bigger clients, switched to another private
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  company that was eventually acquired by private equity. And I'm like, oh, shit, light bulb moment,
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  now I understand ownership and now I understand private equity and now I understand startup. Now,
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  and then this is sort of like the the the the origin story for how I got really into
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  entrepreneurship and building companies and investing and trying to get ownership in companies
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  because it all that was just sort of career path that I followed.
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  Okay, so there's a lot in that that I think we'll dig into in a moment. I just had a side note
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  that's interesting about the the stable healthy two-parent home because from some context,
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  you know, I was a complete opposite. So I divorced by eight,
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  mom was pregnant when the divorce happened, went into like hopping around no money for a number
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  like a long time and that fuels now this really, really insatiable drive to never be in that
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  situation again. But it comes with its lists of downsides that I have to like genuinely work out.
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  And we also, you know, mentioned in the rapid fire talking about like being effective men
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  and being good men in society to, you know, provide the framework of support for the next generation
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  of children that will be lost otherwise if not for like a really good quality, you know,
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  family. What was it about your parents and the way they raised you that was a positive,
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  you know, way of being raised? Well, so I think that, I think that positive, listen,
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  it's not like there's, I mean, they definitely, definitely, we went on some vacations and something
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  like that, which is beautiful. But that's not the point. The point is you're not exposed to any sort
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  of traumatic events. So I think that's the biggest positive because I think that's safety.
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  Just like it's just fundamentally comfortable like fucking hug whenever you go home that's
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  you're just not stressed. Like your stress levels at an all time low all the time. So
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  and the, just to make it very clear, obviously, it's not that you have to become, come from that
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  environment to be any sort of successful. But what trauma does and trauma impacts everyone
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  differently. But what trauma usually does is it just gets implanted into your subconscious.
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  And then it just runs on this like feedback loop. And when you get older, if you have all these
• 18:06
  traumatic events and these unsafe events, I'm a guy who you should actually go listen to as Dr.
• 18:11
  Don Wood, I learned all of this from, yeah, he had them on the show, but he's not, he's another
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  Canadian actually, but he, he does a lot of trauma work. So how trauma manifests is when you
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  are young and you experience traumatic events and it could be it could be moving around no money
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  whatever. All those events get implanted into your subconscious and they just keep running like
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  this operating system on a feedback loop and what that can actually manifest as can manifest as
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  it can manifest autoimmune disease later on in life. You're always getting sick, you're scared
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  or you make bad decisions based like financial decisions because you never want to be broke
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  ever again. Or you can't commit to somebody and you cheat on your girlfriend all the time because
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  for whatever reason, you don't feel like you don't have faith in like a committed relationship.
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  So you sort of self sabotage. So it shows up in different people differently, but I'm definitely
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  not a doctor by any means, but he showed a lot of cases where early childhood trauma had a
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  significant negative impact that the person wasn't even aware of. And when you saw for that trauma,
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  then all of a sudden that particular part of their life gets much better.
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  So I think that I'm very fortunate where I'm sure there's some traumatic events in every person's
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  life, but I didn't have constant exposure to these things. So I think that there's less
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  opportunity for those subconsciously implanted traumatic events to negatively impact my day to day,
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  which allows me to make decisions that are just void of any sort of negative input that I'm not
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  even negative subconscious input that I'm not even aware of. Just making clear decisions.
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  I don't have all this baggage that causes me to self sabotage. And again, some people may be
• 20:08
  fully functioning no problem, but I think that also I think that a lot of people could benefit
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  from trying to get that trauma out of their system because I'm sure that it manifests in one way
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  or another. And I mean, this is obviously, don't go into it because it's obviously very personal,
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  but I'm sure that you've noticed things that probably come from that upbringing that impact you
• 20:33
  in one way or another. I was just very fortunate that I didn't have as much of those events.
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  So I have less that impacts me in a negative way. I have my fair share of problems for sure,
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  but I think that that's what I mean by positive environment.
• 20:47
  Yeah, no, for sure. Look, I'm pretty open book like I talk about these stuff quite a lot
• 20:53
  on the podcast side. I don't really mind, but it does show up and it's been
• 20:58
  10 years of work just to one uncover the patterns and then two even begin to scratch the
• 21:09
  surface on how to resolve them. It's like it's a long, slow, hard, hard route, but the alternative
• 21:17
  is so much worse, you know? I agree. So much worse. I agree. No, I was going to say I think that
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  also I was looking at some stats the other day because I made a stupid joke on threads about
• 21:33
  like men would rather... I think it was on thread for us to give you like one of the first threads
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  that I put out when Zuck released it. I threaded or whatever the hell it's called when you write
• 21:43
  on threads. Like men would rather like start posting on like a new social platform than go to
• 21:49
  therapy or some shit like that. And some guy, I know like one viral and some guy was like I'm so
• 21:55
  sick and tired of people saying that men don't go to therapy. Like I go to therapies like show me
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  receipts and men don't go to therapy and I'm like, okay, valid, fine, I'll go look it up. I was just
• 22:03
  talking out of my ass, let me go research. So I research and it's like significantly less men
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  go to therapy than women and it's like statistically like it's like something like 7% of men go to
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  therapy where like I'm just making up numbers, but like it was like 7% men like 18% women or something
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  like that. Anyways, the point is, so you say you have all this trauma in your life growing up
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  and you need therapy or you need some sort of solution to solve for this. So it doesn't manifest
• 22:30
  in all the different areas of your life. God forbid it manifests physically, but hopefully for
• 22:35
  most people it's just not hopefully, but hopefully it doesn't make you sick or physically. Maybe it's
• 22:41
  just something that impacts your decision making process. But you still have to go and get it
• 22:48
  fixed to some degree or at least you have to understand that it's even there and be
• 22:52
  self-aware enough to know that it's there. So I think that a lot of, I think that a lot of men
• 22:56
  who maybe went through traumatic experiences growing up just statistically will not figure out
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  why those things are impact and not much leads to just as fucked up person because they're
• 23:06
  not going and getting the work done. So I think that, you know, less than learned is as a child,
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  you don't have, you don't have the agency or the opportunity to really decide how you're raised.
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  But going forward as an adult, you definitely have the decision and the opportunity to decide
• 23:26
  how your child is raised. So architect that environment, architect that home. So I think it has
• 23:30
  such a huge impact on the health and wellness of the kit. And that's where, you know, just
• 23:36
  bringing this full circle. That's where I was very happy that very happy. I didn't have a choice.
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  I was very fortunate that I didn't have a lot of these traumatic events growing up because it just,
• 23:47
  well, in my developmental years, my most informative years as a kid, it was just a very safe, comforting
• 23:55
  space. What does that allow you to do in business? Well, you said it. I think that it allows me to
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  make decisions from a more level added perspective because I don't have this subconscious
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  influence or this stress that impacts everything. So I think that I'm very pragmatic and logical
• 24:16
  about my decision making, which allows me to remove a lot of emotion. Because again, I think emotion,
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  I mean, emotions have no place in most decisions for business. Most of the stresses that you encounter
• 24:29
  on a day to day are not half as bad as you actually think they are. So when you can remove yourself from
• 24:34
  the emotional component and sort of like the shock and off component, whether or not it's, you know,
• 24:41
  think of the worst things that can happen in business. You get sued, an employee quits,
• 24:46
  you lose the deal, whatever it is. If somebody, somebody scams you, whatever it is,
• 24:51
  those are the things that can elicit an emotional reaction that can cause you to make a bad decision,
• 24:56
  right? So I think that that, fortunately, I'm probably, I don't know if I'm better than most,
• 25:02
  I think that I'm very good at making really pragmatic level headed decisions as much as I can,
• 25:10
  which I think has allowed me to sort of avoid the chance of screwing up again and again and again
• 25:15
  with these emotional heated, really weighted decisions, which probably are not
• 25:21
  a net positive when you're trying to build a business. And also, again, having a good partner
• 25:26
  at home, so when I do get stressed out, she can sort of bring me back and remind me how good life is
• 25:33
  and how I shouldn't be as stressed as sometimes I am, I think that also helps. So it's a combination
• 25:38
  of everything, but I think that the more you can remove the emotion from the business, the more you
• 25:42
  have a support system that allows you to sort of remember who you are and what you've been able to
• 25:50
  accomplish and how good your life actually is. In the most stressful times, I think that's a very
• 25:55
  important thing and I think it's part nature, part nature for sure. What value would you say
• 26:01
  emotion plays in business? Is there a positive value that you can have from being emotional?
• 26:10
  So I think I think to answer that question, you have to define emotion. So I'm very passionate.
• 26:16
  I'm very passionate about what I'm building. I love what I'm doing and I was doing it
• 26:24
  before it made money for a significant period of time, which is what allowed me to eventually
• 26:28
  make money from it. But I think that passion and determination and grit and perseverance and
• 26:36
  setting up systems to allow you to succeed even when you don't feel like it, I don't really
• 26:44
  define that as emotion. When I think that if people hear the word emotion in business,
• 26:51
  it's like anger or stress or even like maybe you're too happy because something worked out well
• 26:57
  and you have to remember that you still have to keep showing up every single day and not take
• 27:01
  your foot off the gas. So I think that the things that allow you to continue the thing
• 27:08
  are important if you want to classify those as emotions, but I think that the emotions that do
• 27:12
  not help are anything that are like significant highs or significant lows. I think that that
• 27:20
  can be detrimental and maybe allow us to make incorrect decisions. For example,
• 27:28
  like maybe a contract that comes through that's like a little bit too good to be true could be
• 27:33
  fraught, it could be a scam, but we're so excited and happy about it that we're not thinking about
• 27:37
  because that's the first time we've gotten paid over a thousand bucks for our consultant,
• 27:41
  our graphic design services and somebody says, hey, I want to do a $25,000, you know, three-month
• 27:47
  gig. Well, maybe you're not paying attention to the fact that the domain doesn't look 100% and maybe
• 27:52
  you're clicking the link that you probably shouldn't be clicking in your downloading something because
• 27:56
  you know, the point is I think you just have to be level headed with most most of the decisions
• 28:00
  that you make and I think it'll be fine, but I think when people get lost in their emotions,
• 28:02
  they can't bring themselves back to zero, I think that that's when they make the most mistakes.
• 28:08
  Yeah, that makes sense. From your experience in sales, what has there ever been any value in,
• 28:16
  you know, wider ranging of emotions like happiness or anger or you know, elation or
• 28:25
  you know, pick one. I think the most useful and the most useful asset in sales would be empathy
• 28:30
  and self-awareness because that allows you to give a shit about the person that you're selling to,
• 28:36
  which is really how you sell. But no, I don't see any value in most of those. I mean, it doesn't
• 28:41
  mean you're, it doesn't mean you have no like inflection in your voice when you talk to somebody
• 28:45
  like you don't sound like, yeah, like don't sound like like a robot, but maybe yeah, maybe you want
• 28:56
  to celebrate a little bit after a deal is done. That's a, that's good psychologically. But
• 29:01
  when you're actually doing the work, I don't think that I don't think that emotions will benefit you.
• 29:09
  Okay, interesting. I, I mean, you feel free to, I feel free to counter if you have a different
• 29:15
  opinion. I don't know. I don't, I'm just, I'm just curious. You've got a lot about it before to be
• 29:20
  honest. I'm sort of thinking on the fly on this because I'm trying to think of if, I'm just trying to
• 29:25
  put myself in all this situations that I went through when I was selling. I mean, you're always
• 29:29
  selling. But if you get pissed off, again, if you get excited that a deal comes to you before it's
• 29:37
  closed and you're happy about it, well, that's a massive high. And if you don't win that deal,
• 29:42
  then you're going to like, you're going to just do this like seesaw and you're going to feel depressed.
• 29:47
  If you get pissed off at a customer because whatever they, they cancel the contract, I mean,
• 29:55
  there's a real good chance you're going to say something that's going to ruin your reputation
• 29:58
  and, and, and ruin the chance of that customer ever coming back to you. Like, I just don't see
• 30:04
  it when you're in the arena, when you're doing the thing, when you're, when you're negotiating the
• 30:09
  contract, when you're whatever, I don't think a motion is, it, it, it really helps you become
• 30:15
  more effective. Um, again, this doesn't mean you're not hot. I guess the only emotion would be
• 30:21
  passion. If you're passionate about what you do, it means you'll care more, it means you'll, um,
• 30:26
  learn more about what you're selling, learn more about the customer. Again, that uptails into empathy.
• 30:32
  Um, but I don't think these like super highs and super lows really benefit you at all.
• 30:38
  Okay. I wonder with say a difficult situation with a client or a business partner, um, or even a
• 30:47
  supplier, how do you go about handling those difficult situations with grace even when they're
• 30:53
  maybe potentially ripping you off or taking advantage of you? What's the line do you think
• 30:57
  that you need to tar between being hot and being graceful? So I think I'm very, um, so first of all,
• 31:10
  I, when you're, when you're engaging in business discussions always, I reduce the chance of that
• 31:18
  particular situation happening by being black and white and deliverables in contractual
• 31:24
  so I don't do a lot of handshake deals. For me, it's more, this is what we're, this is what
• 31:31
  the agreed upon deliverables are. Let's sign off on it. Let's get to work. For me, that just eliminates
• 31:37
  like 90% of the headache. If there is something that even after going through that process, um,
• 31:47
  they, you know, we get into an argument about something or, or they, or whatever,
• 31:52
  um, I mean, I, I usually have really hard conversations in person. I think that's one thing that,
• 32:02
  and I'll, and I'll just, I'll say, listen, these are the outcomes we agreed upon,
• 32:07
  or these are the, these are the things that you committed to. And if you don't,
• 32:14
  it'll either be we're never doing business again, or you can speak to a lawyer. Like, it
• 32:18
  doesn't really impact me emotionally because there's not one particular thing that is really
• 32:24
  going to change my entire life. It's going to change my entire relationship with the person,
• 32:29
  probably for the rest of my life, but I also understand there's a lot more supplier,
• 32:33
  there's a lot more people to sell to, there's a lot more business partners in the world.
• 32:36
  To not really that stressed, because I believe in my own ability to figure it out,
• 32:41
  and I've never really cornered myself in a position where there's one paycheck that's coming,
• 32:46
  it's going to cover rent, or I'm not going to be able to afford my, you know, my, my living
• 32:51
  expenses for that month. So I don't let myself get to that point. I make it, I diversify myself,
• 32:57
  and I create enough redundancies in my business, so that one thing is a very pragmatic,
• 33:03
  it's lawyer, or killing the relationship, and that's it. And if you do something fraudulent,
• 33:08
  then you make an example, and you take the cord, and you sue them. If it's just something where
• 33:13
  they can't deliver, and it's really not a big loss, and we just agree to part ways, but
• 33:18
  it doesn't really matter to me, because I'll have 20 other things lined up, I'll have 20 other
• 33:22
  deals lined up. I mean, this is also why you have to be careful who you choose to go into business with,
• 33:29
  but fortunately, they've never had like a negative business partner experience of that degree,
• 33:33
  where there's been legal involved and whatnot. So yeah, I think that, I think that contractual
• 33:40
  obligations are super important, black and white, and you set yourself up so that if this one
• 33:46
  piece of your empire doesn't work out, you have so much else that you can work on, and go after
• 33:53
  that it's really not going to impact you to the point where it could actually, you know,
• 33:58
  negatively impact your life. Sure. That makes sense. That makes sense. Out of curiosity, I,
• 34:03
  you mentioned kind of burning the relationship or going to court. There's, I think maybe I'm
• 34:11
  playing in a level of games where it kind of doesn't make sense to go to court on a level of stuff,
• 34:16
  like $10,000, $20,000 and stuff. What do you think the minimum is based on your experience when
• 34:22
  you should take this further versus just like burning it and living on with your life?
• 34:27
  I'm usually over for a friend. Yeah, usually over. I mean, well, I would always remind them
• 34:34
  that if there is some contractual obligation that is not met, technically they can be responsible
• 34:39
  for legal fees. Sure. So if they have the capital, if they have the capital, if they're a functioning
• 34:48
  business, then over, over, over, I mean, I've let things go that are $15,000 just because I know
• 35:00
  the person meant well, and I know that I know that maybe they couldn't fulfill the deliverables for
• 35:05
  whatever reason. And it really was, it wasn't fraught. It was like something didn't go right. And
• 35:10
  that's okay. And I don't mind that as much. I would say that if it was over $50,000, I'd be more
• 35:16
  aggressive about it. And I would say, listen, I'm not going to like ruin your life, but
• 35:23
  let's develop some sort of payment plan or I'll have to pursue legal action because this is
• 35:28
  like a significant amount of money. But less than that, I really haven't, I haven't pursued,
• 35:33
  mostly because it's more headache and bad with and time and stress than it's worth because I
• 35:37
  can go somewhere else and just, I mean, even if I hire a lawyer, first of all, I have to pay them
• 35:43
  and there's a chance that they don't win in court. So then I would have to, that would be more
• 35:50
  money on top of it. But yeah, I don't know. For me, it's very much circumstantial and I haven't
• 35:59
  really ever been in the situation. I'm very fortunate where something over $50,000 has just
• 36:05
  not worked out. But that would probably be my litmus test for like, yes, we should probably
• 36:09
  go after this because this is not a small amount of money. Okay, interesting. Well, on the point
• 36:17
  of decision-making processes, you mentioned that you make, you feel like you make level-headed
• 36:24
  good decisions. Could you run us through your decision-making process with potentially an example
• 36:30
  when it comes to business? Yeah, I'm sure. Well, we just went through one, I guess. Yeah, yeah,
• 36:39
  isn't worth it to pursue. Yeah, it's worth it to pursue a lawsuit. By the way,
• 36:45
  I actually think that I think that sort of my less a fair and cost of doing business,
• 36:52
  mindset is probably more Canadian than American because a lot of Americans,
• 36:55
  sufer, no reason at all, which is like a new phenomenon to me. Yeah, I'm the same as
• 36:59
  Australia, don't I? It's like this whole mental battle in myself is to whether to take it
• 37:05
  to court, but here it's like the concept of the no-win-no-feel lawyer is so fun to me.
• 37:14
  But that's more a personal injury. That's not usually in business. Yeah, yeah.
• 37:19
  And unless they feel like you have like a slam dunk case, usually that's like personal injury
• 37:24
  because if they take on your case, like insurance companies have so much money,
• 37:31
  like they're going to go settle, right? But like the stuff that we're talking about is working
• 37:35
  with small vendors and working with solopreneurs and working with contractors. Like we're not
• 37:40
  talking currencies. Probably not in most cases. I mean, some of the bigger agencies do,
• 37:45
  but I would assume even some of the bigger agencies don't. So yeah, I mean, you have to pick your
• 37:50
  battles, right? I have a friend who probably spent, so she had to sue a business partner.
• 38:01
  And I think it was something like $200 over $200,000 and it was like $400,000 in legal fees.
• 38:08
  And the guy had all of his money in various trust funds and they're not going to recoup any of it.
• 38:15
  Because technically, he doesn't have any money to his name. So that's $600,000 gone when it could
• 38:22
  have been $200,000 gone. And yeah, they're never going to see a dime of the settlement they won,
• 38:30
  by the way. So like, I mean, in that case, it's $200,000, but if I knew how he was set up and I
• 38:40
  would do a little bit of research into the person that I was going after, then I probably wouldn't
• 38:44
  pursue legal action because it would just cost me more money. So I mean, it's hard to have a
• 38:50
  black and white response because most people would say, hey, somebody screwed you for $200,000,
• 38:54
  would you go after them? Depends. It really depends. Yeah, it's a really tough one. It's very tough.
• 39:01
  So I don't want to give people advice on like a hard and fast rule as to when you should go after
• 39:05
  somebody. But sometimes people are assholes and they commit like tons of fraud and then that's
• 39:11
  something that you should sort of make an example of. That's sort of my one rule.
• 39:17
  But yeah, I don't have like a hard and fast answer for that. I try and stay out of as many
• 39:23
  situations that involve suing people as possible. I mean, it's also sort of making good decisions
• 39:31
  to begin with, like just not getting yourself in that situation. I just before you go ahead,
• 39:36
  I've got this relevant concept that's been developing in my mind and like
• 39:43
  when I was younger, I've been very charismatic and able to get myself out of difficult situations.
• 39:53
  To the point where I would get myself into difficult situations, very, you know,
• 39:59
  laxataisically because I knew I could get myself out of those situations. But I know
• 40:05
  right. Maybe that's part of the trauma that I need to figure out. But as I'm getting older,
• 40:10
  I'm starting to think, you know, realize this idea that there's also a second part of this
• 40:14
  equation where I can have this skill and I can turn it on when I need to turn it on. But the next
• 40:23
  level of the skill is to have the foresight and the wisdom to not get into the situations in the
• 40:30
  first place. Correct. So to just to let's speak about business decisions because this is a pretty
• 40:38
  common business decision that I make regularly. And this will sort of answer both questions at once.
• 40:43
  So I try not to do business with anybody, meaning I don't invest with somebody or I don't
• 40:51
  become business partner with somebody that I have not known for a significant period of time.
• 40:56
  And I mean like significant. So two, three plus years. And I have enough friends at this point
• 41:02
  that are experts in whatever field that they become experts in that if I want to invest in SaaS,
• 41:08
  or I want to build a SaaS company, software company, I want to invest in real estate. If I want to
• 41:12
  do a fix in flip, I want to do a multi, you know, multi res. I have people that I know that I've
• 41:17
  been to their wedding and I know their kids and I can trust that if I do something with them,
• 41:22
  I know that at least they are good people. I mean, doesn't mean the project is going to work out.
• 41:26
  But I've sort of like at least removed the ethical person dilemma that you have to solve for when
• 41:31
  you're doing business, right? So I'm that's that's probably one of my most useful decision making
• 41:38
  frameworks. It's not complicated. It's just it just requires patience. And I think that outside
• 41:46
  of that, if I do have to work with somebody, hire them, invest with them that I have known for
• 41:51
  a shorter period of time, I will only do it through the reference or the referral of somebody who
• 41:57
  I've known for a longer period of time. Sure. So yeah, with the network that I have,
• 42:01
  I don't think that there's any kind of person that I would have to commit a significant amount
• 42:06
  of money to hiring that I wouldn't have some sort of referral to any kind of agency, any kind of
• 42:12
  investment opportunity, any kind of thing that you have to do, even like stupid things like
• 42:19
  plumber, electrician, like whatever it is, I'm a degree of separation away from somebody who's used
• 42:24
  somebody for three to five years to complete that service, right? So that's kind of a hard and
• 42:31
  fast rule that I have and it's worked out very well. So I don't have to get into a lot of situations
• 42:38
  because when you are just on this, you know, you're kind of like on an island and you don't have
• 42:42
  a good network. And by the way, networks and mentors and advisors and peers are not just
• 42:48
  retelling you how to do shit. They're like, they're very useful for stuff like this. So when you
• 42:52
  want to hire somebody or you want to put money somewhere, it's very nice to have somebody who
• 42:58
  has worked with somebody or knows somebody very, very well. And I think that that has eliminated
• 43:04
  probably, you know, a significant amount of times where I've had to worry about, am I going to
• 43:10
  sue this person over $50,000 because I haven't had to get to that point because fortunately,
• 43:15
  the people that I work with, they don't end up screaming me over. So, and I see this, and I'm young
• 43:22
  and I have this, this sort of this little advisory board of friends and peers that I have.
• 43:28
  I see this to such an extreme degree with people that I look up to that are much older. They have
• 43:33
  little groups of friends and they only will invest within their circle. Like they'll have like 20
• 43:40
  people that are all successful people and they'll only invest in deals that these other 20 people
• 43:45
  bring to them. And they don't look for outside money. They don't look for outside capital. They don't
• 43:49
  look for outside deals. They don't jump on Zoom calls with anyone. They're just a group of friends.
• 43:54
  They don't each other their whole lives and they all trust each other and they all do work and
• 43:56
  business together. And I think that that is something that is, it's a framework. It's also like
• 44:03
  a network. It's a huge advantage that helps me to not have to make those shitty decisions and
• 44:10
  calls on when you work with bad people to screw you over. Just using my personal experience as a
• 44:19
  side by side to this, I think coming from a very small town in Australia, there is a lot less
• 44:27
  opportunity or maybe the illusion of potential less opportunity and being like hungry and wanting to
• 44:35
  make something of yourself. I've noticed I'd get into situations where it might not be ideal but
• 44:44
  better than nothing but I think in hindsight, nothing is better because once you've got a
• 44:50
  little bit of a buffer, the headspace that it takes up just dealing with those headaches
• 44:59
  takes away from the next opportunity where maybe it could be better. I agree. I totally agree.
• 45:05
  But also, you have to take control of your own future. So you started to create
• 45:13
  like a media as he's created a podcast. So you can do this from this like, you know,
• 45:20
  super rural town in Australia and you can create something that will attract people to you.
• 45:27
  And yeah, maybe the podcast isn't going to make you X amount of dollars overnight but it will
• 45:32
  give you access to people and those people will again start to form that little cohort of
• 45:38
  individuals that you can look up to when you can ask questions to it. So I think that you got to
• 45:42
  you got to create your own circle and you got to optimize your own circumstances. And there's
• 45:47
  ways to do it. I mean, yeah, maybe before the internet, it was tough to do this in a small town in
• 45:52
  Australia but we got the internet. There's ways to do this shit, right? And there's ways to do it.
• 45:57
  Again, doesn't mean you always have to we're internet culture, people go to masterminds,
• 46:02
  people go to all these different things. Doesn't mean you always have to do that either.
• 46:06
  Doesn't mean you have to spend $10,000 to get into the room with people. Not saying anything
• 46:10
  wrong with that, but obviously you have to understand what your goals are and your objectives are.
• 46:15
  And I selfishly made a podcast because I didn't want to spend $10,000 to never with people.
• 46:20
  I'm like, $10,000 on show for me content. Exactly. But I knew that at the end of the day,
• 46:24
  building a brand around me would have longevity whereas if I spent $10,000 to go to a mastermind
• 46:31
  for a weekend, well, that's great for the weekend. But what happens in six months or 12 months
• 46:37
  or now, I'm going to have to do it again. So I rather bring people to me than always pay to get
• 46:41
  into rooms. And that's just a mindset shift that I had. It's not better or worse. I mean,
• 46:46
  some people don't want to do a podcast. It's a lot of fucking work. But for me, I was like,
• 46:50
  yeah, you know what? I don't mind doing it. I like building a brand. I like talking to full people.
• 46:55
  I want to network on steroids. And I'm going to try this out. I'm going to figure it out. And
• 47:00
  this is what created this incredible network of awesome people that now I, that I have access to
• 47:07
  and that I can call up if I ever have a problem. Yeah, I love the podcast. I think this is a great
• 47:12
  media and so good. So much fun. Like I, I've noticed doing this so that my, I'll come into a
• 47:25
  project or I'll come into an episode essentially tired or just drained or something's in my like on
• 47:30
  in my head. And then by the end of the podcast, I'm inspired. I'm energized. I'm ready to just go
• 47:36
  do a bunch of cool things that you're doing. That's a good sign. That's a very good sign.
• 47:40
  Yeah, that's right. And the more I hear that, and this is something I haven't heard a
• 47:44
  felt in a while. So it's very interesting to see where this will go. I mean, by the way,
• 47:50
  also pay attention to that feeling and only surround yourself with people that give you that
• 47:54
  exact same feeling. If you, if people around you, they give you energy. Like sometimes you'll have
• 48:00
  a conversation with somebody at, you know, at dinner or whatever and you go home and your head
• 48:04
  just buzzing with ideas, those are great people to surround yourself with. Yeah, versus somebody
• 48:10
  who you spend dinner with and you're like, oh my god, I just want to get out of here. I'm so tired.
• 48:15
  To radic nothing wrong with the person just is, is that person aligned with really what you are as
• 48:23
  a person and are the conversation topics and the goals and the aspirations of you and the other
• 48:27
  person are they matched up because when you find those people and you, and you sort of expose,
• 48:33
  you expose yourself to each other. Um, it'll give you energy. Yeah. Yeah.
• 48:41
  Trying to say it properly. Um, but you don't say it. Yeah, whatever. I couldn't think of a better
• 48:46
  way to say it. The dinner. No, no, you get it. Um, no, but like when you expose yourself to
• 48:54
  each other, like that's where like magic happens. That's where you push each other. You, you,
• 49:00
  you, there's like an energy that you feel when you hang out with this person. So find people that
• 49:05
  are like that and spend more time around them. Um, yeah, that, yeah, people give you energy, not
• 49:10
  people that take energy away. Yeah. I mean, that's a big thing that's definitely being developed
• 49:15
  and understood as time goes on, which is just how important energy is and everything you do.
• 49:20
  You know, I agree. And I'm again, I'm not like, woo, woo, whatever, but I can tell you that there
• 49:24
  are definitely people that I hang out with where I feel like I want to like go home and like
• 49:29
  tackle life versus people that I hang out with. And I'm like, oh my god, I cannot stand spending
• 49:34
  another minute with you. I need to leave right now. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You go home and you're
• 49:39
  tired and like, it's not that the person is a bad person. It's just like, it's just not a
• 49:44
  person for you. They're just whatever they care about is not synced up with what you care about.
• 49:49
  Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Just quickly though, I want to talk to you about a taboo but very
• 49:53
  important topic, sperm health. I bet you didn't think I was going there. One day, I want to have kids.
• 49:59
  And like any future parent, I want to give them the best shot at a healthy life. But let's face it,
• 50:04
  we're at a war every day with our health in this modern world. Chemicals, microplastics,
• 50:09
  and artificial environments are wreaking havoc on our internal systems at every turn.
• 50:13
  And if you know me, you know, I'm obsessed with health. And the health of my swimmers have been
• 50:17
  on my mind for a number of years. That's why we've partnered with Legacy who are changing the game
• 50:23
  in at-home sperm testing and freezing in the US. Did you know that globally sperm cancer dropped
• 50:28
  by 50 percent in the last 40 years? Let that sink in for one moment. This is not just a fertility
• 50:34
  problem as well because low sperm quality has been linked to a high risk of testicular cancer,
• 50:39
  heart disease, diabetes, and even early death. And on top of that, your sperm quality begins to
• 50:45
  decline around age 30 and by your 40s, the risk of infertility and having a chance of a child
• 50:50
  with neurological disorder begins to go up. So testing and freezing now may be the best decision
• 50:56
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• 51:01
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• 51:06
  the results are on your phone. Plus, you can freeze your sample at two secure locations for peace of mind.
• 51:12
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• 51:16
  head over to givelegacy.com and use the code TOT at checkout for 10 percent off. That's give
• 51:22
  legacy.com using the code TOT for 10 percent off. Thanks for listening. Now back to the podcast.
• 51:30
  I want to switch gears a little bit here, but it's in a similar vein.
• 51:34
  Going back to what you worked on prior to becoming an entrepreneur prior to doing the podcast,
• 51:40
  you had a good career in sales and marketing. And what value do you think those core skills
• 51:49
  had in your ability to succeed as an entrepreneur? And if there was somebody listen to this as
• 51:54
  just getting started at the beginning of their journey and are you talking to your previous
• 51:59
  self, what would be the three hard slash soft skills that you would focus on to begin?
• 52:07
  So, the skills that I learned from sales and marketing and a lot of selling, most of my career was
• 52:17
  like individual contributor. It was understanding people. Again, like a lot of empathy and high
• 52:29
  EQ. So just understanding people, I think is one of the most useful skills you can ever have
• 52:37
  in anything you do. The ability to tell a story is a very useful skill, which obviously is
• 52:47
  huge for marketing and sales. So not just talking about the features of the product or the thing,
• 52:54
  but like helping the customer understand where they're at right now, what problems they have,
• 53:01
  how the product that you are going to eventually sell them is going to solve those products and
• 53:05
  helping them see this journey that they're going to go on. I mean, not that has to be like a huge
• 53:12
  journey, but the journey that they're going to go on from where they're at now to where they're
• 53:15
  going to end up and being able to tell that story in a compelling way, which is ultimately just
• 53:21
  sales 101. I think it's a very useful skill because you're going to use that skill to sell your
• 53:26
  company to investors and sell your company to people you're going to hire and sell yourself to
• 53:30
  your spouse and sell the concept of vegetables to your kids and you're going to have to sell a lot
• 53:37
  of shit over your life. So you got to be able to sell, you got to be able to tell stories,
• 53:42
  and I think storytelling is really selling. And then, so yeah, understanding people,
• 53:52
  the ability to tell stories, and I'd say the last thing is the ability to count on yourself.
• 53:59
  I think that I made a lot of really fast career changes because I always trusted myself to
• 54:06
  figure out the next thing. I wasn't stressed about it. I'd never... yeah, a little bit of
• 54:11
  imposter syndrome, but I knew that I'd still figure it out. I have this probably because of the
• 54:17
  healthy environment that I had growing up. I have this ridiculous self-belief. In my mind,
• 54:22
  if someone else has figured it out, I can figure it out. And that's ego. That's for sure a little
• 54:27
  bit of ego. People are going to be like, oh, this fucking guy, things you can figure everything
• 54:31
  out. I believe it because I genuinely don't believe that anybody is that special. I don't believe
• 54:37
  that anybody is that I don't believe that there's anybody had any significant advantage that I
• 54:42
  cannot replicate. So I think that that belief, again, again, I really do believe a lot of that
• 54:49
  comes from a very healthy environment. I think that if you don't have that belief that you have to,
• 54:54
  you have to be able to get to the point mentally where you can sort of just trust yourself
• 55:00
  explicitly to figure this shit out because if you can do that, it's a fucking superpower.
• 55:05
  Because you're going to go into something and you're going to trust that you can figure it out
• 55:09
  and you will figure it out. That's like not that complicated. It's not magic. If you
• 55:13
  pull yourself in the scenario, pull yourself into the arena and you look at people that have
• 55:18
  done it before in your reverse engineer their success and you understand the path and the steps
• 55:21
  that they took, you are going to figure it out eventually. Nobody is incapable of figuring this
• 55:26
  shit out. But I think that we self-sabotage way more than we should. And I don't see that
• 55:36
  really benefiting anybody playing its safe self-sabotaging, saying like, I'm going to commit
• 55:41
  five more years in this role before I move on to the next role. Listen, if you're killing your role,
• 55:46
  move on. Push yourself. Get out of your fucking conversation. All the tropes, all the
• 55:52
  cliches, they're all true. So I think that the self-belief has been one of, again, the superpowers
• 56:00
  that has allowed me to do all the different things that I've done, moved in my career,
• 56:04
  built my own shit, done this podcast. I jumped on this show. I jumped on with Guy Kawasaki in
• 56:12
  the first 15 episodes. You know how stupid that is? He was like one of the original Apple Fount.
• 56:19
  I had like Grand Cardone on in like the first 20 or some episodes. I can't remember one exactly.
• 56:23
  But like the self-belief was wild. It was absolutely wild. But you know what that does?
• 56:32
  It forces you to level up really quickly. And that's just a net positive. Because yeah,
• 56:39
  it's going to be stressful and you're going to screw up a little bit. But am I getting those
• 56:43
  people on in the first six months of the show? Whatever. I mean, I definitely pushed myself
• 56:50
  harder, faster, quicker than I probably should have. But whatever, it worked out. And I'm still here.
• 56:55
  So I think that that's just like a very positive finding a way to have an unlimited amount of
• 57:03
  self-belief, which usually comes from also, I think, is a lot in there. But I think that really
• 57:07
  just paying attention to your wins is supposed to focusing on all the bad things that have happened
• 57:11
  in your life. I think that's a quick little hack that allows you to do that. But I think however you do
• 57:17
  it, I think that's very important. Because I think that will sort of really progress your career
• 57:21
  much quicker. I mean, even you know, you're starting your podcast now. Like the more ambitious you
• 57:25
  get, the bigger the guess you get, the more you build up the studio. Like it's not rocket science.
• 57:30
  If you do this shit and you figure it out and you keep pushing for the next 10 years, you'll have
• 57:35
  one of the bigger podcasts. Like it's really not that complicated, right? But people get stuck in
• 57:40
  their own shit and they get scared about how they look on camera and they, and they, and they don't,
• 57:47
  they don't upscale themselves. They don't learn how to light shit properly or whatever. They don't,
• 57:52
  or they don't reach out to the guest because they're too nervous because the guests are too big
• 57:56
  and they don't shoot their shot. I mean, all of it comes back to self-belief. So you have to find a
• 58:01
  way to have this incredible self-belief. And I think that's something that's really pushing me
• 58:04
  along with my career. The storytelling element that you spoke about was very, very, very important.
• 58:13
  I think it's a very important point that I want to elaborate a little bit on. The going down
• 58:18
  this podcast route, the more podcasts I do, the more storytelling comes up as a common thread
• 58:24
  between pretty much every industry. Like you've got, I've worked with content creators. I've
• 58:30
  worked with business people. I've worked with, you know, people that do a lot of like spiritual
• 58:35
  work and, and how they frame the stories is how people begin to change their behavior.
• 58:46
  And it's, it's not a very complex thing to understand once you dig into it. It's, it's,
• 58:53
  when you realize that over, you know, 100,000 years, we as humans have been explaining concepts
• 59:00
  through stories. You just begin to approach it on a very simple basis in a very image-driven basis.
• 59:09
  And that basis allows people to understand a potentially complex idea in a very, very succinct way.
• 59:16
  And I keep coming across it. And the more, you know, this has led down to looking at how to write
• 59:22
  copy, which is probably one of the most impactful skills you can have. Can you write, can you write
• 59:31
  effective, clearly, and create visual imagery in people's minds to put an idea to somebody?
• 59:39
  It's crazy how powerful that is. And it also, by the way, writing copy helps clarify your
• 59:44
  own thoughts and your own thinking process as well. It is super powerful. And also writing good
• 59:50
  copy and being able to storytelling, whether or not it's through your words or through the written
• 59:55
  word, I think it also impacts the stories that you tell yourself and the stories that you believe
• 1:00:02
  yourself. I mean, like, I have a story in my head about my podcast and where it started and
• 1:00:08
  where it can go. And I fully believe that. And it's real to me. Like, when I, when I
• 1:00:14
  sit, she jump on a podcast with, with a guest or I set up the lighting a certain way or I listen
• 1:00:20
  to the audio, like, this story is like tactile. Like, I can touch it. I can feel it. I can see where
• 1:00:25
  it can go. Because I can, again, look at the people that are there. And then I can reverse. And
• 1:00:31
  reverse engineering a lot of this is how I can tell stories to customers, health stories to myself.
• 1:00:38
  Because you map out the entire journey. And I think that a lot of blockers, like psychological
• 1:00:44
  blockers are when the journey is opaque and not clear. And we can't see from where we are to where
• 1:00:52
  we need to go. And we whether or not, well, no, I think it's your reverse engineer that journey
• 1:00:57
  and tell a story to connect the dots. And then the journey becomes a lot more clear. And then
• 1:01:01
  that's when it's like light bulb moment, aha, it clicks. And whether or not it's talking about
• 1:01:06
  my career as a podcaster or I'm trying to sell you this widget that's going to solve this
• 1:01:13
  annoyance you have in your life, I still have to reverse engineer from where you want to go to
• 1:01:20
  where you're at now and tell a story that paints that picture words are written so that you get it.
• 1:01:25
  So you can see it. You can feel it. You can touch it. You can paste it. You can hear it
• 1:01:29
  just in that in that little moment. I think that's very important because it makes it real for
• 1:01:33
  you. And when it's real for you, then you start to believe that you can do it. So all this
• 1:01:38
  shit kind of ties together, you know, all these things side together because you're not going to
• 1:01:42
  have self belief if you can't see the journey. If you can't, if you don't have a story that you
• 1:01:47
  believe as to where you're at and where you're going to go or if you're customer doesn't have a
• 1:01:51
  story they believe as to where they're at right now because their knives are too dull and they want
• 1:01:55
  sharper knives that can cook shit for their family better. If you don't have that story cemented
• 1:02:00
  and real, you're not going to achieve it and you're not going to make the buying decision.
• 1:02:04
  You're not going to spend six years, 10 years, 20 years of your life trying to build the thing.
• 1:02:08
  So yeah, and then you're not going to have a self belief. You're not going to you're not going
• 1:02:12
  to have the conviction to do it because you don't believe that it can be done. Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:02:17
  The the story about getting Grand Cardone on the podcast in the first 20 episodes,
• 1:02:22
  it sounds like an interesting thread. I'd love to go down a little bit further. It wasn't that
• 1:02:26
  complicated really. So it was just a cold email. That's it. I'm a sales guy. It was a cold
• 1:02:32
  email. What do you want? I mean, it was it was like it was a good subject line. So okay. So
• 1:02:39
  everything in life is sales. Everything in life is storytelling, right? That's what that
• 1:02:43
  let's start with that. But when you're trying to get a guest on a show, it's another sales
• 1:02:49
  opportunity. You're selling yourself. You're selling the podcast to the guest. So how do you sell?
• 1:02:54
  Well, you have to get their attention. So there was a really good subject line in the game. So
• 1:02:57
  first of all, what was it? Sorry. I could find it. But it was something along the line because I
• 1:03:05
  don't it was just it was I came over. I think it was like I was getting 5,000 downloads a month at
• 1:03:15
  that point. And I think I had had a couple of their big guests on. And then I so it was like
• 1:03:20
  it was something like top entrepreneur podcast, which is bullshit, but top entrepreneur podcast.
• 1:03:28
  Is that 5,000 downloads a month? Is that top entrepreneur podcast? I think it's like if you do
• 1:03:32
  over 10 podcasts, you're like in the 0.01% of all podcasts ever. So in other words, 70,
• 1:03:38
  this would be episode 70 film. Yeah, exactly. Top all over one percent of podcasts. That's
• 1:03:43
  such a good. That's such a good angle. I love that. Yeah. It's it's slightly. Yeah.
• 1:03:53
  So yeah. So you have that. And then I think I put like past guests names in in in brackets. I
• 1:03:59
  can't remember who they were. Who I put in that exact subject. I'm do it. I've been the biggest
• 1:04:03
  names. And then I also said. So that was a subject line. And then the copy of the email, I think
• 1:04:10
  I should probably find it. And I'll send it to you. But it was it was referencing a couple past
• 1:04:15
  shows that he did. So the show that I and what he what he's accomplished like in like two
• 1:04:20
  sentences just like I saw you in this show that show. But basically every time I send email,
• 1:04:25
  this is not just for a grand card on podcast, but just a sales email best practice. I always make
• 1:04:30
  it so that it's impossible for it to be automated. Yeah. It's like my goal set of free email. So
• 1:04:34
  as long as the person reading it doesn't really, I mean, it does matter a little bit. But ultimately,
• 1:04:38
  the goal is you want to make it so that the person reading it knows that it isn't possible that
• 1:04:42
  they are part of a sequence that it is personally sent to them. So again, couple past podcasts. He's
• 1:04:49
  been on some of the talking points, some of the things about him that obviously I couldn't just
• 1:04:53
  automate. And then I also said, I think I said that I would also chop up the episode and create
• 1:05:00
  a whole bunch of social clips for him as well. And then I team would do that and send it over.
• 1:05:04
  It'd be virtual. Yeah. So basically good subject line. Make sure that it's not automated and make
• 1:05:15
  sure that the person receiving no, that's not automated and then solve pain points and basically
• 1:05:20
  reduce as much friction as possible. Pain points could be additional content, additional exposure
• 1:05:24
  and the reduced friction. It's the fact that it was virtually did not the travel anywhere.
• 1:05:28
  So very, very low risk, low effort, kind of like a net positive outcome. All I need for you to do
• 1:05:34
  is like literally sit your ass down for an hour on zoom and we'll get this done. And you're going to
• 1:05:38
  get some social assets out of it. You're going to reach 5,000 people that you've never, maybe you've
• 1:05:42
  never heard of you before. So ultimately, it was just a good sales email. And I sent that to him. I
• 1:05:48
  sent that to Guy Kawasaki. I sent that to Anthony Scare-Mucci. I sent that to Jack Hanfield,
• 1:05:53
  just like a chicken soup for the soul guy. And they all said yes. So I said, and then you just
• 1:05:57
  compound that success. So when Guy Kawasaki and Anthony Scare-Mucci comes on and Jack Hanfield,
• 1:06:03
  then you use those names to get Grant Cardone. From Grant Cardone comes on, you use that name to get
• 1:06:07
  Patrick Bed David. And then you keep using these people to compound because you're showing you,
• 1:06:11
  you've had some wins. And then I mean, again, you're telling a story. You're saying like, listen,
• 1:06:17
  this is who's been on. This is what I'm going to give you. These are the pain points I'm going to
• 1:06:20
  solve. And then you keep sending that out again and again and again. And then there's a certain
• 1:06:24
  point where you start to become popular and you don't have to send out that many emails anymore,
• 1:06:28
  but it's a good way to get the like a podcast off the ground. I like it. Well, we're definitely,
• 1:06:33
  how we have to do it, like deep dive into the podcast business. We'll do that another time.
• 1:06:37
  So I want to move on from this. But just before we do, I've got a couple of really interesting
• 1:06:42
  examples on a similar vein. There was a guy that called emailed me through his V8. So I know
• 1:06:50
  it's like there's a bit of a system here, but the system would have been the VA goes and finds
• 1:06:57
  as many podcasts as she can find on the internet, puts it into a spreadsheet, puts some notes. And
• 1:07:02
  then he from from the VA's account or from the VA's email had created a custom video. And it was like,
• 1:07:12
  hey, Adam, I want to be on that one time. I was like, I don't know this guy. I've never heard of
• 1:07:18
  this guy before. And I was like, I'm, yeah, booking an episode with you. That was great.
• 1:07:24
  Straight away. Just the fact the pure fact that he did went to that effort. I love it. I mean,
• 1:07:30
  it's brilliant. So I think a good, a good, I love that. And by the way, whether or not you're selling
• 1:07:35
  a product or trying to pitch podcasts, I have a habit and I really like this a lot. I do not
• 1:07:41
  come up with this, but I actually remember who said it, but I've now adopted it. At the end of
• 1:07:46
  every day, shoot like two or three shots. Like, like, for example, the end of every day,
• 1:07:52
  if you're selling a product, email the CEO of three huge enterprise customers, it could be your
• 1:07:59
  target customer. And chances are they're not going to answer. If you're a podcaster, email like
• 1:08:04
  Mark Cuban and Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg at the end of whatever, you know, you pick huge people
• 1:08:09
  like shoot your whale shot. And then over the course of the year, even if you emailed, even if
• 1:08:16
  you did one a day, 365, shoot your shots over the course of a year, what if one or two respond back
• 1:08:24
  and say yes. So it's like, it's, it's a compounding. There's atomic habits, right? The compounding
• 1:08:29
  of small actions creates this massive opportunity. So I think that that's also a really good,
• 1:08:35
  sort of like end of the day task for anybody who's trying to build a business or two or two
• 1:08:41
  build a podcast. I just shoot your shot on something that probably has a .01% chance of actually
• 1:08:46
  turning into anything, but you do it enough. Even one of those could be a radically, you know,
• 1:08:53
  business changing podcast changing event. Yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, I've got two examples
• 1:08:58
  with this podcast that are coming to mind. There's a two upcoming guests, fingers crossed that they
• 1:09:05
  all work out. One of them is a health page. They do a bunch of like health related content and have
• 1:09:14
  a full business and like a global network around it. They're coming on the podcast. I've got a
• 1:09:18
  million followers. I've probably got a six million person network. It's just like really big numbers.
• 1:09:23
  And they were like, yeah, cool. We sounds good. And then the second one is a guy called
• 1:09:30
  Chris Voss. So never so indifferent. I know why I don't do that is. Yeah, he's coming on as well.
• 1:09:35
  And that was cold email, completely cold email. And they replied and they booked in and they're
• 1:09:41
  in the calendar now, which is okay to Chris Voss is huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it's a moment
• 1:09:47
  where I think to us like, Oh, shit. Okay. So now the next thing is like, I, you know, it's a level up.
• 1:09:57
  Like they're doing my beginning to do my research. I've read his book, but beginning to do the
• 1:10:02
  research around it, you know, I looked at the past podcast he's done and it's like, human
• 1:10:08
  and lab before our episode with like three million views. Lex Friedman, three hour episode with
• 1:10:14
  many, you know, two million views. Just all of these big podcasts and then he's got his masterclass
• 1:10:21
  and it's like, Oh, I need to put some work into this. Like this is not something that I coached
• 1:10:25
  by any means. It's take this extremely serious. And when this opportunity comes along,
• 1:10:31
  make sure I hit it out of the park. Because although you will, the next thing will lead.
• 1:10:36
  Anyway, just a little side note. I want to dig into some more social media stuff with you as well.
• 1:10:41
  You're, you're very social media driven. It's extremely important in success with your business,
• 1:10:47
  investing the podcast. I like to get the insights of the people who have, you know,
• 1:10:53
  quote unquote, made it and understand how they would think of the world with their expertise and
• 1:10:59
  knowledge and wisdom if they were to start again. So if you were to start again with zero followers,
• 1:11:05
  what would be the playbook that you'd run to succeed in building an audience as an entrepreneur?
• 1:11:11
  If I was going to start again with zero followers, I mean, I would say that a lot of the stuff
• 1:11:18
  that I've done was very purposeful and it's not that old. I mean, so the create once then
• 1:11:24
  distribute forever, I think is a very useful strategy because it allows you to have a scalable
• 1:11:28
  content creation system. That's why that's how the reason why I chose podcasts in the first place.
• 1:11:33
  Because I want it to be omnipresent, but I didn't want to think of net new content for every single
• 1:11:36
  channel all the time every single day. So in my mind, I was like, okay, so I'm going to follow the
• 1:11:42
  you know, the Gary Vee playbook of build pillar content and distribute across all your channels.
• 1:11:47
  I think that's a great, it's a great way to constantly show up. I would still do that. I would
• 1:11:55
  focus on a lot more lifestyle content, focus on video first, build an in-person setup, vlog,
• 1:12:03
  and short form video. So okay, so I'll go through all those things. So I would still create pillar
• 1:12:08
  content and distribute. I would vlog more because people care about the person and less about what
• 1:12:14
  they're doing. But if you put yourself out there and you create this holistic image of who you
• 1:12:18
  are and they that really resonates and it draws people in in a way that talking head podcast
• 1:12:24
  content will never because I understand who you are than they care about what you're doing. They
• 1:12:28
  care about you first and they care about what you're doing. I would do short form video still
• 1:12:33
  because I always optimize for the most recent feature that social media platforms are trying to push
• 1:12:39
  because that's where you're going to get the most organic reach. I would optimize for video because
• 1:12:44
  YouTube is a second largest search engine in the world after Google. So if you really want to
• 1:12:48
  grow anything significant, which is literally why I moved houses built a studio. If you want to
• 1:12:53
  build anything significant, you have to be you have to be found on YouTube. And I think that
• 1:12:59
  especially for podcasters, there's no organic reach in just audio podcasts. You have to find a way
• 1:13:06
  to promote it somewhere else. So that's why I think the biggest podcasters and they are if you
• 1:13:10
  look them up, all the big podcasters are YouTube first. So this is where you really have to spend a
• 1:13:15
  lot of energy to figure out how to set up a set that looks good and presents well on YouTube.
• 1:13:21
  And I think that's really what I would have done from from the get go.
• 1:13:26
  Yeah, those are kind of the main ideas that I have about social now. So yeah, YouTube, video,
• 1:13:31
  short form, and then put more of yourself out there, not just like your curated professional cell.
• 1:13:36
  I'm really loving this approach. We're just about to start it for the podcast once I
• 1:13:43
  scale back on some other things I'm doing and get some more space, but decide you have the build with
• 1:13:47
  me approach where I'm following a cut like I'm following a coffee brand that is doing it. And
• 1:13:53
  they're very early stages, but it's just a very, very interesting concept where for those who don't
• 1:13:59
  know, it's this idea of you're just you're taking videos of everything that you're doing and you
• 1:14:05
  are talking extremely openly about the ups and the downs and the numbers and all this sort of stuff.
• 1:14:12
  With with that in mind, do you see from your experience in this space like a downside in the
• 1:14:22
  in the openness of the financials and openness of the numbers and the potential effect that it
• 1:14:26
  might have on clients or suppliers because it's very, very sometimes speaking too much is not a good
• 1:14:35
  thing. No, I agree. That's tough because the people that have built in public have never built
• 1:14:50
  enormous organizations. Sure. So where the numbers are now impacting employee morale, for
• 1:14:56
  example, they speak about the financials after they've sold them. But I would I would love to find
• 1:15:04
  I haven't seen one because I have. No, I've seen people build in public companies that do a million,
• 1:15:10
  two million, five million. But yeah, I don't see because like there are liabilities once you get
• 1:15:16
  to a certain point and you have investors and and God forbid if you're a public, you can't do that,
• 1:15:21
  obviously. So yeah, I think there's a point where it's a good. I think that the numbers pieces
• 1:15:28
  probably the the biggest issue. I think that maybe numbers when you're when you're getting a
• 1:15:36
  company off the ground, it could be a good marketing tactic. That could be great just to talk about
• 1:15:41
  all the successes that you're having and your wins and whatnot and what's going on. But I think
• 1:15:44
  it gets to a certain point where yeah, I think that you may have to be a little bit more conservative
• 1:15:52
  speaking about the finances on a day to day. And maybe you speak about more about the operational
• 1:15:59
  problems and and things that you're dealing with. But also it'll get to the point where it'll just
• 1:16:04
  turn into a founder a founder vlog, right? Because you're going to have so many people working for
• 1:16:09
  the company. You can't possibly bring them all into the actual content. So then that's where you're
• 1:16:14
  just going to have a founder that's going to build their own personal brand. They're going to probably
• 1:16:18
  stop talking less about the day to day of the company and more focused on thought leadership.
• 1:16:23
  And then yeah, and then I think that a lot of the content will focus because there'll be and by
• 1:16:28
  the way, the reason that will also happen is once a company gets, if it's a founder led company
• 1:16:35
  that's over 10 million, 20 million, 50 million, they're not going to be involved in every piece
• 1:16:41
  of the business anymore. They can't exactly. So you're going to have C-suite. You're going to have
• 1:16:46
  people that are running the business. So you can't speak to everything that's happening all the
• 1:16:50
  time like you can in a million dollar business. So I think it's an interesting way to start a company
• 1:16:56
  and it's an interesting way to build a personal brand. But ultimately, the goal is for the business
• 1:17:02
  to grow and for the founder to have a personal brand and the founder and the content will have a
• 1:17:09
  certain season and the business and the content it will have a certain season. And then I think that
• 1:17:15
  I mean, the best thing you can do is like kind of like an Elon, like you're still talking a little
• 1:17:19
  bit about the business, but you're talking about other stuff too. And obviously you're not going
• 1:17:22
  to the day-to-day financials, but you're still putting yourself out there. You're still jumping
• 1:17:26
  on stage. You're still going on podcasts and still talking about because at that point,
• 1:17:30
  if you build a significant size business, people are interested in more your views on things that
• 1:17:35
  are outside your business. Not just internal because you have lived in the space for so long. So
• 1:17:40
  now you're going to have commentary on the industry as a whole. And you're going to be talking about
• 1:17:43
  things and making predictions and talking about where the whole industry is going because you've
• 1:17:48
  lived in it. So I don't know. I think that there will be a point where the content would evolve,
• 1:17:53
  but I think to start, it's a really fun experiment. You can still vlog and talk about your day in
• 1:17:59
  life and the founder, but maybe you just don't expose all the financials all the time when you're
• 1:18:03
  making significant revenue. Yeah, exactly. I think you're on the money there. The more I think
• 1:18:09
  about it, it's just it's a tool in a toolbox for a time period where a problem from zero to say
• 1:18:14
  two million revenue, there's certain problems and one of those problems is lack of budget to market.
• 1:18:19
  So it's the most effective way to get the word out in a way that allows you to scale.
• 1:18:27
  And it's organic and but organic is tough. So it's like, you know, thinking through
• 1:18:32
  those different elements, it makes a lot of sense and they're growing the money. I really like
• 1:18:36
  that we work through that because it's cleared my head a little bit on the concept as well.
• 1:18:42
  You've spoken about the Omni Channel approach of your marketing.
• 1:18:48
  What would if you were to steal me on the other side of just focusing on one channel versus
• 1:18:53
  the Omni Channel and putting all of your energy into that? What would you say?
• 1:18:58
  If I was going to put all of my energy into one channel. Yeah. Why would that be a benefit
• 1:19:04
  than the approach economy using? Because you'll learn that channel much faster.
• 1:19:09
  And if I was going to put all of my energy into one channel, I'd put it into YouTube.
• 1:19:13
  Because the bet, I mean, if you think about the purpose of content,
• 1:19:18
  content is meant to build a relationship with the audience. And I have a data point that will
• 1:19:24
  reinforce this, but YouTube is the best way to build a relationship and build trust with an
• 1:19:28
  audience, which is ultimately the purpose of putting your content anyways. And how do you know this?
• 1:19:32
  How can I verify that what I just said is true? Go to a big YouTuber and look at all their other
• 1:19:38
  social. Look at their Instagram, look at their Twitter, look at their follower account,
• 1:19:41
  look at their engagement, and then go to a big Twitter influencer and look at all their other social,
• 1:19:46
  go to a big Instagrammer and look at all their other social, go to a big TikTokker,
• 1:19:50
  and look at all their other social and go to a big Facebook influencer if any of them still exist,
• 1:19:55
  and look at all their other socials. Did that exist? I don't know. Maybe I don't know. I don't
• 1:19:58
  The point is, if you build anywhere on social media and my thesis is that it's because
• 1:20:05
  video is not involved and video is the highest trust building form of content you can create
• 1:20:09
  outside of sitting in front of somebody in a coffee shop.
• 1:20:12
  If you just post copy or images or even short form video, not even long form video.
• 1:20:23
  The trust is not built and the audience is not loyal compared to YouTube because when
• 1:20:28
  you go to a big YouTuber and you look at all their other social, more or less, it'll
• 1:20:33
  be significantly sized, like they'll have a good size following.
• 1:20:37
  If you go to a huge Tik Toker, it could be crickets on Twitter and crickets on Instagram.
• 1:20:42
  So I think that that just shows you how loyal the audience is and that's really the goal
• 1:20:48
  that you're trying to accomplish.
• 1:20:49
  You're trying to build a loyal audience, so that's where I would spend my time because
• 1:20:53
  I know that that is going to have like sort of like the biggest bang for my buck, my
• 1:20:57
  biggest ROI on my time and money invested on a single channel.
• 1:21:01
  So that's why I choose YouTube and you learn it a lot quicker too.
• 1:21:04
  Interesting.
• 1:21:05
  What I've also noticed is we begin to dig into the analytics as our numbers get bigger.
• 1:21:11
  We've had the most success on the views side on YouTube, but we have our retention rate
• 1:21:18
  on the videos is, sorry, on the content is so much higher on audio, like through the
• 1:21:24
  roof higher.
• 1:21:25
  Yes, yes.
• 1:21:27
  Now I didn't say yes because I didn't say I would do podcasts on YouTube if that was
• 1:21:31
  the only medium.
• 1:21:32
  I would build content that was optimized for YouTube.
• 1:21:35
  You said I only had one choice, but I would do it now because it's just a general side
• 1:21:40
  now.
• 1:21:41
  Interesting.
• 1:21:42
  You have to learn how to use YouTube and you have to, and if you're trying to just use
• 1:21:45
  one channel, again, on the channel approach includes the kind of content that I create.
• 1:21:50
  If I was going to use one channel and only one channel, I would learn the content that
• 1:21:54
  would do best on that one channel, which is not 60 to 120 minute podcasts, right?
• 1:21:59
  Yeah.
• 1:22:00
  I was looking at the clock.
• 1:22:01
  I'm like, how long are you doing this?
• 1:22:02
  No, I'm just kidding.
• 1:22:04
  But it's not long form, it's not long form content like this.
• 1:22:08
  It's 10 to 12 minutes and there was certain editing style, right?
• 1:22:11
  So there is a certain kind of content that works best that we'll have high retention
• 1:22:15
  on YouTube.
• 1:22:16
  If I had to do one channel, I'd find a way to take my message and find a way to push
• 1:22:21
  it out through YouTube in that particular video format.
• 1:22:24
  Yeah.
• 1:22:25
  Yeah.
• 1:22:26
  That makes sense.
• 1:22:27
  That makes sense.
• 1:22:28
  I've noted that in the past, you've spoken about using ads to really supercharge your
• 1:22:36
  content numbers.
• 1:22:40
  I'll be through the strategy around that because it seems like in my head as, you know,
• 1:22:45
  not looking into this in some major depth, if you're running ads to content, you're burning,
• 1:22:51
  you're not going to be, that's not going to ballast out to zero at any point, you know,
• 1:22:55
  to a break-even point.
• 1:22:56
  So what's the value there and when?
• 1:22:58
  Well, it's like if you're not going to have a positive.
• 1:23:01
  Yeah.
• 1:23:02
  Yeah.
• 1:23:03
  So what's the thought around it if you can't make it sustainable?
• 1:23:07
  Maybe talking from your experience.
• 1:23:08
  Like what was your thought process?
• 1:23:10
  Well, I think so.
• 1:23:11
  So I think that when I, I mean, I don't run a ton of ads, so I'll run, so right now,
• 1:23:18
  I run promotion ads on YouTube that include that, so there's like a little promotions
• 1:23:23
  tab in the content.
• 1:23:24
  If you go to like studio content, promotions on the far right, I run promotions tab and
• 1:23:30
  I can get about, if I optimize the ad for the right content, I can probably get about
• 1:23:35
  10 cents per subscriber, which is not bad at all.
• 1:23:39
  Interesting.
• 1:23:41
  So the goal is to, I mean, the goal is to, I don't have a lifetime value on that subscriber.
• 1:23:51
  But I do know that if I get enough of those subscribers and they turn into fans and
• 1:23:57
  maybe yet I have to trust that my content is good, but it turned into fans and they stick
• 1:24:02
  around for the next 10 years.
• 1:24:04
  And then those eyeballs turn into CPMs, they turn into things that, those CPMs like itself
• 1:24:09
  advertisers, yes, I agree.
• 1:24:11
  It is a very convoluted calculation to figure out if I'm going to get a positive row as on
• 1:24:19
  that ad spent or how I'm going to get a positive row as if I run an ad campaign to get newsletter
• 1:24:27
  subscriber.
• 1:24:29
  By the way, I'm sure there's actually a formula I could figure out.
• 1:24:34
  But right now what I'd end up doing is I have so many advertisers that end up spending
• 1:24:38
  so much money on my show per month.
• 1:24:40
  And I test different buckets to see what I can get for that money.
• 1:24:45
  So I'll run ads on other shows, I'll run ads on newsletters, I'll run ads on cast
• 1:24:49
  box and player FM, I'll run ads on YouTube, I'll run ads, I'll just run regular Facebook
• 1:24:55
  ads.
• 1:24:56
  I'll run a whole bunch of different types of ads and I'll see what the result for dollar
• 1:25:00
  is.
• 1:25:01
  And then I'll keep optimizing and improving my budget and I'll reallocate.
• 1:25:07
  I am just a big bullet.
• 1:25:08
  I use to run ads, try and push you look towards Instagram.
• 1:25:11
  I don't do that anymore.
• 1:25:12
  It doesn't serve a purpose for me.
• 1:25:15
  I've tried to measure how many Instagram followers actually translate into podcast listeners
• 1:25:21
  because my actual dollar is attached to my podcast downloads, right?
• 1:25:26
  That's where the advertisers go.
• 1:25:28
  If I was selling a different product, then maybe I'd be having a different discussion.
• 1:25:32
  But I found that not enough Instagram followers care about long form audio video content
• 1:25:39
  for it to make sense for me to invest in ads that's going to drive people to my Instagram
• 1:25:43
  page.
• 1:25:44
  Yes, will you get more likes and shares and engagement and followers on Instagram?
• 1:25:48
  Yeah.
• 1:25:49
  But if it's not actually paying you and you don't see a clear path, then I kill it.
• 1:25:54
  But I've tried that before.
• 1:25:55
  Now my current thesis is that YouTube has created some of the largest podcasts in the world.
• 1:26:03
  And the Roas might not be immediate, but I think there is a Roas there if you can become
• 1:26:10
  the 0.01% of podcasts on YouTube.
• 1:26:13
  And I think there's like outsized returns, meaning if I spent 2000 bucks a month on YouTube
• 1:26:21
  ads and say, do the math.
• 1:26:23
  That's like whatever, 20,000 subscribers, right?
• 1:26:26
  If you do the 10 cents per subscriber math.
• 1:26:29
  And if I can grow the podcast and if those subscribers actually listen to my shit and
• 1:26:37
  then YouTube starts recommending my channel more and then I get more organic and then all
• 1:26:42
  of a sudden I don't even have to worry about spending and running ads for YouTube.
• 1:26:47
  Well, at that point, I mean, $2,000 a month, that's $24,000 a year, I mean, that could
• 1:26:54
  be one, that could be like one advertiser because I know Tim Ferris currently charges $50,000
• 1:27:00
  per mid-roll.
• 1:27:01
  So I mean, like the returns could be out, like dramatically outsized if the promotion
• 1:27:07
  gets you to the point where you're best in class and you are top 0.01% at what you do
• 1:27:13
  in the world.
• 1:27:15
  But it's not easy.
• 1:27:16
  So you have to find a way to make it sustainable and find a way to, and find a way to commit
• 1:27:22
  to it for the long run, really.
• 1:27:24
  So I can't, I have to find a way to allocate my ads between my audio and YouTube, which
• 1:27:30
  is what I'm focused on right now.
• 1:27:31
  I'm really focused on YouTube.
• 1:27:32
  I mean, I'm building out a studio.
• 1:27:34
  I think that that's really going to be the future of podcasts.
• 1:27:36
  So like that's sort of like the bet that I'm hedging right now.
• 1:27:40
  And I'm spending in a sustainable way this not going to bankrupt me or kill the show.
• 1:27:47
  So I'll give it six months.
• 1:27:48
  I'll see what happens.
• 1:27:49
  I'll see if I notice that if I continue to promote and invest, are those subscribers
• 1:27:57
  good?
• 1:27:58
  Do they watch the show over the course of three months as my retention go up?
• 1:28:02
  Does my organic subscribers start to go up because YouTube is recommending me in the
• 1:28:06
  algorithm?
• 1:28:07
  So I'm just paying attention to these signals.
• 1:28:08
  And if not, then you kill it.
• 1:28:10
  That's fine.
• 1:28:11
  But I want to try it at least.
• 1:28:12
  And I want to give it like a decent shot.
• 1:28:15
  So that's sort of how I think through it.
• 1:28:17
  Yeah.
• 1:28:18
  That makes sense.
• 1:28:19
  It's an interesting approach.
• 1:28:20
  Something I'll definitely explore as the podcast gets to that level.
• 1:28:24
  I just try, like I'll try, I've tried so many different places to spend money and a lot
• 1:28:28
  of them don't work or a lot of them I don't have outside like these potential for outsize
• 1:28:33
  returns.
• 1:28:35
  I spent, I mentioned cast box and player FM two places where I spend money for basically
• 1:28:41
  their like podcast listening apps.
• 1:28:43
  They put up banner ads, they cost, I mean, I haven't done player FM in a while.
• 1:28:49
  It's about three grand cast box like five five five to ten grand per ad insertion
• 1:28:53
  of runs for a month.
• 1:28:54
  They they guarantee so many subscribers for that at like a dollar two dollars per subscriber.
• 1:29:00
  And then some of those subscribers are loyal, some of them sick around, some of them
• 1:29:03
  drop off, but I've tried, I've tried a whole bunch of different places where you can spend
• 1:29:07
  their money.
• 1:29:08
  Trust.
• 1:29:09
  And some of them drop off, some of them are like three dollars per subscriber, but there's
• 1:29:12
  no organic reach.
• 1:29:13
  So if I spend three dollars per subscriber, it's not going to improve my ranking and algorithm
• 1:29:18
  by any degree.
• 1:29:19
  It's going to, it's not going to have outsize returns unless I literally can do the math
• 1:29:23
  and figure out if I spend like three hundred thousand dollars, how many more subscribers
• 1:29:27
  is my podcast going to have and then I have to calculate and like turn and attrition
• 1:29:31
  of those subscribers with the point is out of all the different places that I spent
• 1:29:35
  money and run ads, I do feel like the biggest opportunity could be YouTube.
• 1:29:40
  So that's where I'm just sort of spending my money now.
• 1:29:42
  But yeah, you can, you can definitely test out all the things I just mentioned.
• 1:29:46
  And if you have different results, let me know because I'll go back to them.
• 1:29:49
  Yeah.
• 1:29:50
  I haven't to your point, spending money in all those spots, I've, I've found it unsustainable
• 1:29:57
  for most small and middle-level creators.
• 1:30:00
  Now, the difference would be if I was a corporate sponsored podcast and I didn't have to worry
• 1:30:08
  about, you know, really any, like this was like I'm making a hundred million dollars a
• 1:30:14
  year.
• 1:30:15
  This is like a small little thing that I'm building it on the side.
• 1:30:18
  I can afford to burn money just to grow it so that it seems significant.
• 1:30:22
  But for smaller creators, like independent creators like us, we have to make sure that
• 1:30:26
  if we're going to spend money, it's going to equate to revenue.
• 1:30:29
  We just have to build a profitable business.
• 1:30:30
  I don't want to raise on debt or equity for my, for my startup, my podcast, right?
• 1:30:36
  So I want any dollar invested to return two dollars.
• 1:30:39
  So you do have to be careful.
• 1:30:40
  But yeah, that's, so I take these small little bets on different channels to see if they
• 1:30:45
  can have an potential outsize returns in the future.
• 1:30:48
  Yeah.
• 1:30:49
  It makes sense.
• 1:30:50
  And we'll dig into this in a ton more detail and in around two, so I just wanted to
• 1:30:56
  get some understanding of some more philosophical questions and some general ideas before we
• 1:31:01
  wrap up.
• 1:31:02
  So what's the biggest thing out of the last two years that you've changed your mind?
• 1:31:10
  I would say that I don't know if it has been in the last two years.
• 1:31:16
  I would say that being more of yourself online is considered a positive thing.
• 1:31:22
  And I know that may sound cliche, but I think that for a lot of creators, there's so scared
• 1:31:26
  about putting their true selves out there.
• 1:31:30
  And I think that that's, I think that the world needs more true authenticity and that
• 1:31:37
  means, like, I don't think TikTok is good for content because it's like Instagram.
• 1:31:42
  It creates this like hyper-chirrated, no contextual version of content that paints this
• 1:31:49
  picture that probably is like 5% true and so far from reality.
• 1:31:55
  So I think that more people would be successful creators if they did more long form content
• 1:32:04
  that includes context, that includes more dimensions of their personality.
• 1:32:10
  And that's why I think I love podcasts so much because that's what it does.
• 1:32:13
  I mean, you can't really hide who you are after an hour, an hour and a half.
• 1:32:18
  It's like, this is you.
• 1:32:20
  This is really you.
• 1:32:21
  I mean, maybe you can if you're a psychopath, but for most people, it's very hard to hide
• 1:32:25
  who you are after this long.
• 1:32:27
  But if you do like TikTok or Instagram, people put out these BS curated versions of their
• 1:32:34
  lives and I think it's not negative, it's very toxic for people that just consume.
• 1:32:41
  So I'm a fan of people that create longer form, real authentic raw who they are content
• 1:32:47
  and I think that the world will reward them for that.
• 1:32:51
  And that could include going live or it could include doing long form YouTube or whatever
• 1:32:54
  it is or even just long form audio, but I'm taking either I want I started a vlog with
• 1:33:02
  with Gina and I want to do more like day in the life of stuff because those are the people
• 1:33:08
  that I actually like watching, those are the pieces I like again, I create content similar
• 1:33:13
  to the type of content that I like to consume.
• 1:33:16
  That makes the person real and I think those are that's what that's what influences about
• 1:33:21
  it.
• 1:33:22
  It's not about being a fake version of you.
• 1:33:23
  It's about putting your old self out there.
• 1:33:25
  Yeah.
• 1:33:26
  And I think from there, people look at you and go, is this person aspirational to who
• 1:33:29
  I potentially want to be?
• 1:33:31
  Yes.
• 1:33:32
  Therefore, you know, I think he about it in a very specific career aspect.
• 1:33:36
  Then it's like, do I trust his person's opinion on XYZ?
• 1:33:39
  Yes.
• 1:33:40
  So I have an audience of people who were interested in what I am interested in and therefore when
• 1:33:46
  I bring in appropriate advertisers that are vetted by me and are not sold out by any means,
• 1:33:55
  there's a high value to that.
• 1:33:57
  There's a huge value to that.
• 1:33:59
  Yes, agree.
• 1:34:00
  The huge value to that.
• 1:34:02
  What's the kind of thing anyone's ever done for you?
• 1:34:06
  I mean, I might steal some of these questions.
• 1:34:11
  Do I for it?
• 1:34:12
  I'll send you the list for it.
• 1:34:13
  It's a very good question.
• 1:34:15
  What's the kindest thing anyone's ever done or done for me?
• 1:34:21
  Can't say your mom, no, that's a cop out that's a cop out.
• 1:34:28
  I would say Gina lets me, Gina's your partner, right?
• 1:34:36
  Yes.
• 1:34:37
  Yeah.
• 1:34:39
  I would say that she puts up with a lot of crazy shit.
• 1:34:43
  Like I don't think it's like a one-off, but there hasn't been too much that I've tried
• 1:34:50
  to take on professionally, including turning a guest house in our backyard into a podcast
• 1:34:56
  studio that she hasn't been fully supportive of.
• 1:35:01
  It's a very, I think that I think I may take it for granted sometimes because I've been
• 1:35:05
  in worse, much worse relationships, which is why I'm not with those people anymore.
• 1:35:10
  But to have somebody who is like, trust you to figure it out as much as you trust yourself,
• 1:35:15
  I think it's a huge blessing.
• 1:35:18
  And I'm just thinking about it as I'm sitting in this room because I literally just set
• 1:35:21
  up this room.
• 1:35:23
  So actually, I'm sorry, I think even the lights went out half like two or three days ago.
• 1:35:28
  Yeah, I struggled to myself, like they got them back on.
• 1:35:33
  I don't even know, dude.
• 1:35:34
  I set up this room, this has been like a week, it's been a week for sure.
• 1:35:38
  But the point is like the move to a new house, yeah, I saw them go off in Mayan, I maxed
• 1:35:45
  out yours, so I got to figure out how to keep them on for more than like an hour, but whatever.
• 1:35:51
  So yeah, so she said yes to pretty much everything that I've tried to take on or any crazy
• 1:35:55
  idea that I've had, and I think that's a huge blessing.
• 1:35:59
  So that's again, I'm not going to say parents, obviously there's a lot of wonderful things
• 1:36:05
  they did for me too, but most recently she's been pretty good.
• 1:36:09
  Nice.
• 1:36:10
  There's a, yeah, I'm single at the moment, I'm 31, just moved to New York, so I'm getting
• 1:36:15
  settled into whatever my next stage of my life is going to be.
• 1:36:19
  But I remember this piece of content that Alex Homozy did that is etched into my brain,
• 1:36:27
  and it's just him talking about, I think he was on Diaperceo, he's talking about his wife
• 1:36:32
  and how when he was about to blow up, like, he'd go bankrupt, he said to his, did you
• 1:36:39
  know this piece of content?
• 1:36:40
  Have you seen this piece of content?
• 1:36:41
  I do actually, I do, I know what you're talking about.
• 1:36:43
  And just for those who haven't, basically, he went to her and said, I am a sinking ship.
• 1:36:51
  You should leave me because, you know, how to have a true it is, but like the point
• 1:36:56
  it was there, and she's like, you should leave me because if you stay with me, I could
• 1:37:02
  take you down with me.
• 1:37:03
  And she turns around and goes to him, I'd live under a bridge with you.
• 1:37:08
  And just that idea of like having somebody there, on your team able to support you to
• 1:37:16
  such a deep level, I think is extremely powerful in your ability to make something of yourself.
• 1:37:21
  Oh yeah, that's happened with Gina.
• 1:37:24
  There has been a point where I was like, it was like pretty bad, like nothing bad with
• 1:37:30
  us, it was bad like professionally, and it was like a major transition point.
• 1:37:34
  And I mean, I think I had a similar situation with her, it was like, you can go if you
• 1:37:41
  want.
• 1:37:42
  Like, it's, it's, it's, it's not going to be a fun couple months, like you could like,
• 1:37:45
  you know, I know, I know you have options, like, you don't have to stick her out.
• 1:37:50
  And she's like, no, we're good.
• 1:37:51
  I mean, so was that was like a huge moment, definitely a huge ball.
• 1:37:57
  What did you feel in that moment?
• 1:38:00
  I was kind of surprised, actually, I was kind of surprised, but it was like, it was very,
• 1:38:06
  it was like, oh shit, like this is what happens and somebody actually loves you.
• 1:38:12
  Damn, that was a very unexpected, unexpected feeling because I was like, I was always, I was
• 1:38:28
  always very much, I was always very much the self-sufficient.
• 1:38:35
  So I was always okay figuring shit out myself.
• 1:38:38
  And I never wanted to impose my, like, my stresses on anyone else.
• 1:38:45
  So that to me was, that to me was huge because in my mind, it was so, it was so clear, like,
• 1:38:52
  if I couldn't provide as a man, if things weren't working out, like nobody has any business
• 1:38:57
  being with me, like, let me figure out my shit.
• 1:39:00
  And when I'm rich as fuck fine, then I'm going to go marry somebody, but like, I don't want
• 1:39:06
  to be impeding someone else's life while I navigate my career and whatnot.
• 1:39:14
  So I think that was like, well, that's, that's strange.
• 1:39:18
  It was unexpected, to be honest, it was very unexpected, but it was really, it was, it
• 1:39:23
  met a lot to me.
• 1:39:27
  I was like, you know, to marry this woman, bro, listen, we've been together for five
• 1:39:32
  years, six years.
• 1:39:33
  So I think I think we will be together for a minute, yeah, for sure.
• 1:39:39
  Well, thank you for sharing.
• 1:39:43
  No, of course.
• 1:39:46
  Couple questions left and we'll call it a day, but what, if you could know the absolute
• 1:39:50
  truth to one thing, what would it be?
• 1:39:55
  I think I'd want to know, I think I'd want to know what happens after we die.
• 1:40:00
  I think I think that would be a truth that I would love to understand because I've always
• 1:40:05
  dabbled in spirituality and religion, but I think, like, most people are age.
• 1:40:12
  I think that religion has definitely taken like a, sort of like a backseat, so I think
• 1:40:18
  it'd be interesting.
• 1:40:19
  So I think that, I think that, I think that right now, and it's changing at different
• 1:40:29
  points of my life, I think right now in my life, my life is very much optimized towards
• 1:40:37
  the things that I can touch and feel on this planet right now, you know, like again, business,
• 1:40:44
  relationship, physical health.
• 1:40:47
  There probably should be a component of my life that's a little bit more dedicated to
• 1:40:52
  religion, spirituality, soul, whatever it got, but that's something that I think that,
• 1:40:58
  I think you can improve as you get older and not to say that it's not, there's not
• 1:41:02
  there's not a wrong time to contribute part of your life to that, but I think that having
• 1:41:11
  a definite understanding of what happens after you pass definitely would allocate priorities
• 1:41:18
  differently for not just me, I think for most people, but I think that's, I think again,
• 1:41:23
  when I'm in the thick of it right now, time is my most precious resource, so it's about
• 1:41:29
  understanding where to put that time, and I'm already quite busy, so it's sometimes
• 1:41:36
  hard to allocate towards things that are not, you're not able to touch and feel, you
• 1:41:41
  know, yourself.
• 1:41:43
  Yeah, so it's challenging, but I think, especially as, you know, we get older, understanding
• 1:41:51
  the like philosophical implications of decisions that are being made, and I is really important
• 1:41:56
  because I think the latest stages of our lives will be spent probably contributing and giving
• 1:42:04
  back to the people in the next generation through being maybe politics or through like
• 1:42:09
  mentorship or whatever, and without a really deep philosophical understanding of what's
• 1:42:14
  come before us, it's hard to make decisions for the future.
• 1:42:18
  You're right, yeah, you are very right.
• 1:42:22
  I think that that's why I think that at least I hope that I'm in alignment with what
• 1:42:31
  I believe is a good reason to be on this earth, which is to try and improve other people's
• 1:42:36
  lives through insight, education.
• 1:42:42
  Like I think that that's a noble purpose, so I feel like if I, like what I'm doing, what
• 1:42:45
  you're doing can help enough people.
• 1:42:47
  I feel like we're not far from the work that we should be doing, and I don't want to make
• 1:42:51
  it sound like this is like, this is not a religious conversation, I just think that like,
• 1:42:56
  I think that if you do good work and you sort of find a way to take what you know or take
• 1:43:01
  what other people know, because you have a special talent of interviewing and creating
• 1:43:05
  a media platform around it, and you try and create content that educates and inspires
• 1:43:16
  and makes people better versions of themselves.
• 1:43:19
  I think that's a good start to contributing to a good life on this planet.
• 1:43:27
  So I think that we're not super far from it, hopefully.
• 1:43:30
  But I agree with you.
• 1:43:31
  I think that as you get older, you do get more perspectives.
• 1:43:34
  I'm hoping that when I am 70 or 80 or God willing, 120, I do hope that I'll look back
• 1:43:42
  and I'll say like, yeah, you know, I was laying the groundwork for like a really good life
• 1:43:47
  that I'm proud of.
• 1:43:49
  Definitely.
• 1:43:50
  And on that, the final question for the day is, what do you think the meaning of life is?
• 1:43:55
  That?
• 1:43:56
  You don't make them easy, damn.
• 1:43:59
  I think, well, I think I've touched on this.
• 1:44:00
  I do believe that the meaning of life is to be the best version of yourself and to
• 1:44:07
  help other people become the best versions of themselves.
• 1:44:11
  I think that is our mission on this, and I think that if you are not becoming the best
• 1:44:17
  version of yourself and you're not passing that wisdom onto other people, then you're
• 1:44:21
  very selfish.
• 1:44:23
  So that's what I believe the meaning of life is.
• 1:44:26
  And I think that it's constant upskilling and development, and then again, passing those
• 1:44:31
  lessons on.
• 1:44:33
  Becky Scott, is there anything that you're excited about at the moment that you want to
• 1:44:39
  let the listeners in on?
• 1:44:43
  No, I would say that you can always come check out more of my content.
• 1:44:49
  You probably put links in the show notes, but I have a podcast.
• 1:44:52
  Yeah, where can we find you?
• 1:44:53
  Yeah, I guess.
• 1:44:54
  If you haven't figured that out by now, I also have a podcast.
• 1:44:57
  What?
• 1:44:58
  So yeah, I mean, it's pretty, all the social is at Scott DeClaire podcast is successstorypodcast.com.
• 1:45:08
  And I would just say, I hope you enjoy the content because some creating it for people
• 1:45:15
  like your audience.
• 1:45:16
  Awesome.
• 1:45:18
  Thank you, Scott.
• 1:45:19
  Appreciate you.
• 1:45:20
  Appreciate your energy.
• 1:45:21
  Appreciate you coming on.
• 1:45:22
  I know you're busy, man.
• 1:45:23
  It's been wonderful to chat to you.
• 1:45:25
  And yeah, I guess until next time we speak for our hopeful round two.
• 1:45:30
  Sounds good.
• 1:45:31
  Yeah.
• 1:45:32
  Sounds good.
• 1:45:33
  Thank you, Mother.
• 1:45:34
  And to the listeners who have made it this far, if you can give the podcast a rating,
• 1:45:39
  a follow on Spotify, a follow on YouTube, or let us know your thoughts on the Q&A
• 1:45:45
  or a comment on YouTube.
• 1:45:46
  We'd love to hear from you.
• 1:45:47
  Till next time.