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When Shepherds Need Shepherding: Chris Bowen's Story · The Church Renewal Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Season 3.5 of the Church Renewal Podcast from Flores Coaching.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Why is this 3.5?
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Because we weren't quite done with Season 3.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I'm Jeremy.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: I'm Matt.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: This is the last episode of Season 3.5.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: We're delighted that you joined us for this mini-season.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: In this episode, Jeremy gets to speak with Pastor Chris and hear how Flores partnered with him as he stepped into a new role as senior pastor.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Enjoy.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: So, Chris, I would love to just give you the mic and say if you would just introduce yourself and give your story any way you want, and maybe there's something else you want to talk about afterwards.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm Chris Bowen and I am the pastor of New Covenant Fellowship, a PCA church in Mechanicsburg, pennsylvania.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: I have been here for about two and a half years.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: We moved here from down south where we were serving at a church, and we're just looking for God's call for us.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: When we moved to this church, went through the search process, interacting with the pulpit committee, one of the things we learned is there had been a history, we'll just say, of congregational trauma, some ministry challenges within the church.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: That was what precipitated my coming here.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: So when we were moving up here, knowing these challenges that were kind of inherent within the story of the church, some mentors of mine said you'd do really well to have a coach, someone to come alongside you to walk with you in this process as you journey towards healing and renewal.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: Newell, so, being in the PCA and this being a PCA church, I wanted to connect with someone that was a coach, that understood our tribe, understood sort of the ins and outs of the PCA, our polity, our theology.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: So I got connected with Flourish through a mutual friend and my first call with them was to reach out, set up an appointment with Matt Bowling, and so Matt and I talked, told him about our church, what we were looking for, and I just said, hey, he was talking about a coach.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Like who would you want to be paired up with?
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: I said I've described our church to you.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Whoever you think would be most qualified to help us, that's the person that we want to engage with.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: So that happened to be Matt Bowling that we want to engage with.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: So that happened to be Matt Bowling, and what I would say from our experience is Matt was someone that, for me, served as a sounding board.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: He was someone where I could speak in confidence about ministry challenges, life challenges, personal challenges, things that, as I was building trust with our session, maybe I hadn't got to the place of being as vulnerable with them, and so Matt gave me that space to process those things with him and because he was a pastor and had served in the church, he was able to point me to the gospel and to shepherd my heart as a pastor.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: So not only was I trying to shepherd this church, but as a shepherd, I needed someone to shepherd me.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: So Matt was able to do that.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: He was a sounding board for talking through ministry strategies, ministry ideas, issues within the church, things that the ruling, elders and the other members of the church are kind of situated within.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: It was nice to have someone that could offer an objective opinion from the outside to help me see what I'm not seeing, to hear what I'm not hearing and even in the first pass of things we were trying to do, to be someone who would offer me some good.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: Well, maybe you should talk about this or emphasize that or how would that be heard?
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: So it's just a good person to kind of explore those things.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: I think, uh, one of the biggest benefit that I had with matt was, um, matt had had some experience talking about working through, uh, the church church life cycle, uh, the sort of the what he would decline, the inclineline, recline and decline, and so that was a tremendously helpful tool for myself.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: It gave me mental models of what to explore and to engage.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: My session he interacted with our session and was able to present that to them and it helped them to have a similar perspective and viewpoint, to understand where we are at led to great conversation and I found that it was really good for us to have a third party have that discussion.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: So it was someone from the outside saying here's what I see, let's talk about it and engage it.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: So those were super helpful and so that really framed our time with him with that journey towards renewal.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: I think one of the things he was most helpful with us was when you're moving a church towards health and renewal, you have to sometimes make hard decisions.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: So there was some hard decisions we had to process, chewed up a lot of our time the first year.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: Some of those things how do you be gracious and loving and kind, but also how do you make these decisions in order to move forward.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: So that was invaluable to me in that process.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: How did you feel coming into it?
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: What was your mental state when you walked in that?
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Was it fear, was it curiosity?
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Was you know?
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Was there anxiety, as you were looking at the situation saying how do we move forward here?
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: So, moving forward, for me coming into New Covenant Fellowship, it wasn't I would say it was maybe a healthy humility to say this is a situation with real lives, real people, with real hurts, that I have never been in this similar experience experience.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: So where, what tools, what skills, what voices do I need in my life to better equip me to shepherd this congregation towards health?
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: And even for me, where do I need in my own story to address it, you know, gospel, heart issues in my own life so that I can be a healthier pastor to, to help, uh, shepherd this group?
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: So it, you know, we kind of knew what we were getting into coming up here, but also we didn't know what we were getting into and so it was just good to have.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm a solo pastor at a church that had a real small staff, so there wasn't someone to bounce ideas, similar thoughts of revitalization and health.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: So here was Matt, well-read, well-studied, lots of experience and the wisdom that comes with that that was able to help us in that process.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: How long did you guys, did you and Matt, walk together through this process and did he actually come out to be on site with you, or was it sort of a uh more over the the phone lines, a relationship?
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: yeah, matt and I were together for about two years two full years, uh, he had two planned visits to our area.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: One of the first he spent a lot of time just making sure my wife and I were doing well, how was she engaging?
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: He was caring for us as a family.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: He knows that we, in ministering in this church, we minister out of the abundance of our own journey with Christ, but also our journey with our wives.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: We wanted to make sure that we were, that there were no cracks that were unseen.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: The second time he came and he engaged with our sessions, really helping us think through what does the church need?
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: What strategic ministry areas do we need to focus on?
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: Do we have alignment?
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: And so that was really good.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: One of the things I loved about Matt was he was available.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: So there were times when I needed to engage with him more and I didn't need to speak with him as frequently, but he was always available.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: He was always.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: He was unhurried, he was willing to be present and engaged with my story, my scenario, my anxiety, my frustration, my whatever.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: He was a calming presence, a non-anxious presence.
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: And also, you know, ga.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: We would go to GA and there was Matt and we could connect with him.
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: So it was a great time for our elders who were at General Assembly to connect and visit with Matt.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, so there was that.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: And then, actually one of the things I appreciated most about him when we first started he was in our area and was moving from point A to point B and I knew we were along the route.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: So he stopped in and just connected with us and loved on us.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: So that was really meant the world to me, that he was willing to take some time out of his busy schedule to come sit and be present with us for a while.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you said it already, Matt's a pastor first and foremost this whole thing with church organization.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: He comes in as a consultant but I know he doesn't like that word because he's foremost a pastor and I've experienced that same thing because of my own story, which is not why we're here today.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: But I really do.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense to me.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I really do, that makes a lot of sense to me.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: So you guys did not use the model that Flourish has broken up into essentially three buckets there's church health assessment, there's envisioning and then there's pastoral search.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: It sounds like you guys did those things yourselves, but you personally, and then the session, were using Matt sort of as a sounding board and as a mentor as you were walking through those.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Is that the right picture?
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so the church didn't use him for the church because that preceded me and so I don't think they knew of Matt.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: I think the church health assessment we would did maybe an informal approach, a lot of me engaging with him talking about that church life cycle, that was one of the things he engaged us in talking through.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: I know there are maybe more formal, maybe processes or projects that he might follow for that, but we didn't engage in that.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: But yeah, but I think even just thinking through it, the he had you know the PCA is large but it's also, you know, everybody kind of knows everybody.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: So he knew of our church, he knew of our story, he was able to dialogue with it and actually I was pretty surprised by how aware he was of some of the things that were, you know, just part of this church's narrative.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: And so that was.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: He gave me excellent insight on how to lead change, to be patient, to consider Paul's pursuit of church renewal in the New Testament and what that looked like, and dialoguing with me.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: So it was really really valuable for us and I honestly don't think I would say kind of where we're at now after two years with Matt.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: You know we have seen improvement in sort of the extensive you know the external metrics, budgets, worship attendance, things like that.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: But we've also seen improvement and growth in sort of the intensive things you know, our staff culture, our you know our staff composition, our elders and ministry alignment.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: So we've really been working on both aspects.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: The Lord's blessed it and it was well.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: Again, I don't think we'd be where we're at today if I didn't have Matt journey with me in that process.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: What was the most surprising thing that you experienced, either you personally or within the congregation?
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: And maybe a third part of this question would be what was the most surprising thing that you and your wife talked about?
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, uh, just for clarification, like in the the journey, or before we got here, after we got here, what which?
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: which part of the in your interactions you were walking with matt yeah, I say I mean I yes, this might sound a little cliche, but I was surprised at how well it went um, which is a complete testament of God's grace and mercy, matt would remark time and again.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: It was just surprising what God was doing.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: You can have the best laid plans, but it often doesn't quite work the way you hope or what you had expected.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: And at this stage for us it has been really good, I think my wife and I.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: One of the things that we commented is how good it feels to be kind of in a ministry sweet spot, when you're kind of living out the gospel, you're modeling faith and repentance, you're developing trust within your leadership and within the congregation.
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: And you know there's always challenges, there's people with life issues and hurts, but when ministry sort of clicking, it's a lot of fun.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: And so I think my wife and I had just were pleasantly surprised at how much fun and enjoyable ministry had become again.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I think that's what I think through when I've talked to other people who've come to this area to speak at a men's retreat or reflect on this.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: We set out the beginning to be a healthy church.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: We knew that all growth wasn't healthy and we wanted healthy growth, both in that kind of intensive and extensive metrics, and, by God's grace and mercy and kindness, and in spite of me, he has worked in a way that I think we're really there.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: We've got a long way to go, but we're grateful for how far we've come.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: If you were speaking to another pastor right now and they were walking through something, I'm assuming you would recommend that they at least reach out to Matt.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: What would you say to a pastor or to a session that's looking to transition right now and wondering what to do?
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think if I was walking with a pastor who was walking through something, whether it be professionally, personally, I would say don't believe the lie that you're stronger than you really are.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: You need someone with you who sees you, who's for you, who hears you, who can be a sounding board.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: If nothing else, just give Matt a call.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: Who can be a sounding board.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: If nothing else, just give Matt a call.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: You may not sign on with Flourish, but at least have the contact for a church that's in maybe a transition.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: I know folks that have been in those spaces.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: I think having someone that can understand church culture, that can understand church culture, that understands the system that is a church and its organizational realities, for a pastor to come in, to invest in the transition, to set up the man that Lord will call to that role, that is a huge, huge, huge blessing.
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: So I think certainly churches are capable, sessions are full of capable individuals.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: But having a resource of someone who has done this in a multitude of situations, a diversity of circumstances, just the value that added that they will bring to the long-term viability of the church is, it's hard to actually kind of explain, but man, it is, as someone who's experienced experienced it, it is very much a gift.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: So there is one hero in the story of Scripture, and it's not the pastor.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Anything else that you want to say before we go?
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: I think ministry can be hard because it often feels like you're alone.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: And to have someone who is present with you, who listens to you, engages you, won't let you kind of pull the typical you know kind of play the pastor game or the ministry game, but can see through it, it forces you to engage in your own faith journey, your own application of the gospel to bring renewal in your own life as you seek to do that with a congregation, with a congregation and I would say that I knew of, had heard of the value of that, but until I had experienced it it was far exceeded what I could have expected.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: And so we're so grateful for this experience and hopefully looking forward to maybe using connecting with Flourish again, when some of the problems that may come about in our church are greater than we could expect, to reconnect with them and to have them journey with us again.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you for that, Chris.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I deeply appreciate your time and your perspective and your story.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing it with us.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you, my friend, my pleasure.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: I'm going to stop the recording and that's all I need.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing it with us.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you, my friend.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: My pleasure.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: I'm going to stop the recording and that's all I need.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much, awesome.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned them.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned Jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy.
• 18:13
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• 18:16
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• 18:24
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• 18:27
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• 18:32
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• 18:39
  Speaker 1: A huge thank you to all our guests for making the time to share their stories with us.
• 18:44
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• 18:46
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• 18:51
  Speaker 1: The Church Renewal Podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Seferati in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you.