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The Unhurried Leader · The Worship and Leadership Podcast

0:11
SPEAKER_00: Hey, what's up, everybody, and welcome to the Warship and Leadership podcast.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: My name is Elmer Canyon Jr.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: and I'm here with my blow list.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to be here, man.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm brimming with excitement.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm overflowing.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: I wish I had some cloning technology to contain enjoy.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: I am exuding a pores.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Cloning technology.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: Cloning cloning technology.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Hey, well, today we are talking about abiding, and we're gonna focus on the unhurried leader, and we're gonna talk through John 15.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: But before we dive into the scripture, today we we didn't want to talk about this alone.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: No.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: And so we brought a special guest very dear to my heart.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh two years ago, my friend got to come from all the way from Australia, and we went to a football game to a Friday night football game.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was the best thing watching this theologian try to figure out why the game kept stopping every 10 seconds.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: It's like what's going on now?
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Why are they stopping?
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Who got hurt?
1:13
SPEAKER_00: It was really fun.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: But uh Adam Boyd's all the way from Sydney, Australia.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: I had the privilege of serving at Inspire Church with you, and I am so glad that we've stayed in we've stayed in contact, we've stayed in touch over the years, and that the Lord has continued to do great things in your life.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: You you coach a lot of pastors and leaders around the world, and you've also planted a church, Freedom Enjoy Church.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: And so we welcome you to the podcast today, brother.
1:39
SPEAKER_04: Uh, it's uh fantastic to be here.
1:41
SPEAKER_04: One quick uh story on that that American football game.
1:45
SPEAKER_04: I had been coaching five different American football players in Australia, all ladies, right?
1:50
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
1:51
SPEAKER_04: Yet I'd never seen a game.
1:52
SPEAKER_04: I I I'd never watched a game.
1:55
SPEAKER_04: I had no clue how it worked at all.
1:59
SPEAKER_04: So it was really beneficial.
2:00
SPEAKER_04: And you were a great shooter, Elmer, on on how it all works and things.
2:03
SPEAKER_04: But because you've been in Australia for a number of years and you've seen rugby league, you've seen the parallels and the differences, you did a fantastic job of explaining that to me.
2:11
SPEAKER_04: So really, really do appreciate it.
2:12
SPEAKER_04: And my um gridiron clients appreciated it as well because I knew what they were talking about more than the fast five.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not it's not rugby.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: No, no, it's very similar.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of similarities, but it's not rugby.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: I I do got a question, Adam.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh, what do you do you remember what food you ate that that day at the game?
2:29
SPEAKER_04: I do.
2:29
SPEAKER_04: It was like this cheesy nachos kind of thing.
2:32
SPEAKER_04: Like that, that's what I that's what I remember.
2:36
SPEAKER_04: Apparently, it's a quintessential like Friday night football experience that Alma took me to.
2:41
SPEAKER_04: It was it was great.
2:42
SPEAKER_04: I was I was in you know, just learning God.
2:45
SPEAKER_04: It's such an experience anyway.
2:46
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that was awesome.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: No, that's awesome.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: And so today we're talking about abiding.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so real quick, Pastor Willie, yeah, would you lead us to John 15?
2:55
SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah, yeah.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: Again, one of one of my favorite passages uh of scripture, really in the whole uh Bible.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: So John 15, studying at verse 1, Jesus says, I am the true vine, and my father is the vine dresser.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: Here it is, verse 4.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Jesus says, Abide in me and I in you.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: And then Jesus reminds them again, he says, I am the vine, you are the branches.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, Adam, what I love about this passage here again is Jesus, it's multilayered, but he's reminding us God the Father's the vine dressing, he's doing the pruning, and that's his active work.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: And Jesus puts himself in the middle of this, he's he's the central figure as the vine.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: We are the branches, and the dynamic is that he is our source, he fuels us, and he fills us.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: And not only that, but the fruitfulness is a byproduct of our connection to Jesus.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: It's not the aim.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: The aim is to abide and and to stay connected to him.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: And so as we're thinking through this, what are some words and phrases that jump out at you as you know remember this this text here?
4:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, sure.
4:29
SPEAKER_04: So uh what comes to mind for me when I'm reading through those verses is uh John 1, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1, that by whom, through whom, and for whom all things were made.
4:42
SPEAKER_04: Like we were made in Christ, but we were made for Christ, okay?
4:46
SPEAKER_04: Let me be clear, understand that God is separate and distinct from his creation.
4:50
SPEAKER_04: That's true, that's all good.
4:52
SPEAKER_04: And at the same time, we have our being.
4:54
SPEAKER_04: What did Paul say in Acts 17?
4:56
SPEAKER_04: We live and move and have our being in him.
4:59
SPEAKER_04: And so I read that and reminds me and encourages me, God has made me and you all things, he made it for God the Son, right?
5:08
SPEAKER_04: It's for him, and that Jesus is inviting us to abide in him as an extension of himself and to abide in that joy and that love and the all the good stuff of of God.
5:18
SPEAKER_04: Like that's that's what it speaks to me about.
5:20
SPEAKER_04: There's a there's a a wonderful book by uh Philip Yancey and Paul Brand, I think it was, on the gift of pain.
5:27
SPEAKER_04: And the the idea was that people who don't experience pain, as lepers in this case, do things that are harmful to themselves, but because the pain receptors don't work, they do more damage.
5:39
SPEAKER_04: Does that make sense?
5:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:40
SPEAKER_04: So the the question for me is to okay, Al, Hurti, what's the signal in this?
5:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:48
SPEAKER_04: And with the awareness, my my brain can and does misinterpret the signal at times.
5:55
SPEAKER_04: And so, and I I always you know shared this story that back back when I was 17.
6:00
SPEAKER_04: My um had my first girlfriend in high school kind of thing.
6:03
SPEAKER_04: I grew up in a rural, you know, town central New South Wales, and there was a rodeo that came through.
6:10
SPEAKER_04: And so there was a cowboy there, much better looking than myself, right?
6:13
SPEAKER_04: So my my girlfriend thinks, oh well, I'll hook up with him instead of my boyfriend.
6:19
SPEAKER_04: In hindsight, in hindsight, he was much better looking than me, I probably would too, right?
6:22
SPEAKER_04: But but at the time, like my my little 17-year-old heart has gone, ah, that that hurts, right?
6:28
SPEAKER_04: There's a there's emotionally intense experience, and during those times, that's where the brain adopts beliefs, okay, very quickly.
6:36
SPEAKER_04: And it links up what was there, what was unique, recent, or consistent.
6:40
SPEAKER_04: Those are the things that it's looking for.
6:42
SPEAKER_04: What was there in that moment so I can avoid the pain again in the future?
6:47
SPEAKER_04: So my brain comes up with a story.
6:50
SPEAKER_04: If you want to avoid this incredibly painful experience, what do you need to do in the future?
6:54
SPEAKER_04: Well, what was there?
6:55
SPEAKER_04: You need to avoid women.
6:57
SPEAKER_04: Right?
6:58
SPEAKER_04: Women are an extraordinarily painful thing.
7:00
SPEAKER_04: Then my brain also says, Well, what else was there?
7:04
SPEAKER_04: Intimacy.
7:05
SPEAKER_04: So if I want to avoid the most intense pain in the future, I need to avoid women and intimacy.
7:11
SPEAKER_04: Right?
7:11
SPEAKER_04: Like that's what I need to do.
7:13
SPEAKER_04: Now, with the benefit of hindsight and life on whatever, you know, I realize that that's partially true.
7:19
SPEAKER_04: It's not intimacy with all women that need to be avoided, there was intimacy with that woman that needed to be avoided.
7:24
SPEAKER_04: Does that make sense?
7:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it does.
7:25
SPEAKER_04: And so what we what we do in the midst of pain is we need to stop and discern what does this say?
7:32
SPEAKER_04: Like what is the signal that this is carrying?
7:34
SPEAKER_04: Because sometimes the the punishment is we're disconnecting from life.
7:39
SPEAKER_04: And what is the wages of sin?
7:40
SPEAKER_04: It's death, right?
7:41
SPEAKER_04: Disconnecting from the life of who Christ is.
7:44
SPEAKER_04: There is a death process to that.
7:46
SPEAKER_04: So perhaps the signal is I'm disconnecting there, I've done something disobedient, I've done something in violation of the scripture.
7:52
SPEAKER_04: I have, you know, I have been willing to use someone else, I have been willing to tell a lie, I've been willing to do something for my own fleshly desires over the call of God, over obedience to the scriptures.
8:02
SPEAKER_04: Maybe that's true.
8:03
SPEAKER_04: If that's clear, then the answer is also clear.
8:07
SPEAKER_04: Repent.
8:08
SPEAKER_04: Acknowledge it, confess it, turn back to Jesus, okay?
8:12
SPEAKER_04: But let's say it's not necessarily sin that has caused that.
8:16
SPEAKER_04: And let's say there's there's a dysfunction, something's died as a result of okay, I've come to this season in my life, I'm now going from vocational ministry into the marketplace ministry and whatever, doesn't mean there's been sin.
8:30
SPEAKER_04: It just means there's there's a shift, there's a transition of season.
8:33
SPEAKER_04: Now it's can be still painful because it's loss, okay.
8:38
SPEAKER_04: I was doing this, I had these sets of relationships, I all these things are going on, and now I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling hurt that this thing has come to an end.
8:46
SPEAKER_04: Or maybe someone has actually passed on, you know, that they've died in our lives.
8:49
SPEAKER_04: I haven't sinned, you know.
8:51
SPEAKER_04: Uh someone hasn't died because I've sinned, they've died, and now I'm I'm in pain about that.
8:55
SPEAKER_04: But the lessons feel the same.
8:57
SPEAKER_04: What's the signal underneath this, right?
8:59
SPEAKER_04: What do I need to do?
9:00
SPEAKER_04: What's the action step?
9:02
SPEAKER_04: What's an action step in this?
9:04
SPEAKER_04: Okay, I need to grieve the loss of X.
9:08
SPEAKER_04: Whatever X is, I need to bring clarity to that.
9:10
SPEAKER_04: I I really enjoyed the fellowship and the relationship I had with Bill and Ben and the flower pot man, right?
9:16
SPEAKER_04: Like this this is the specific thing.
9:18
SPEAKER_04: Getting clarity on the causation of the pain can be really helpful in terms of what's the signal that it's sending.
9:24
SPEAKER_04: And then and only then do we begin to form the health plan of go, okay, so what do I need to do moving forward?
9:31
SPEAKER_04: Because if I don't take the time to properly diagnose what's going on on the inside, then I can treat the wrong problem.
9:38
SPEAKER_04: And I begin giving myself a treatment subconsciously.
9:41
SPEAKER_04: Okay, well, I just need to avoid intimacy with women.
9:43
SPEAKER_04: My I didn't sit down with a notepad and pen and go, so what beliefs am I going to adopt after my you know girlfriend cheats on me when I'm 17?
9:50
SPEAKER_04: That's not what happened.
9:51
SPEAKER_03: Right.
9:51
SPEAKER_04: Beliefs happen straight away.
9:53
SPEAKER_04: Me sitting down with a notepad and pen or a word document and things go and say, What you know, what beliefs did I adopt there?
9:59
SPEAKER_04: Talking it through with other people.
10:01
SPEAKER_04: That's where the the truth sets me free.
10:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
10:04
SPEAKER_04: Does that make sense?
10:05
SPEAKER_04: Because I'm telling a partially true story.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I was gonna say, like, nobody sits down with a pencil and paper after someone breaks up with them.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: If anything, they go, you know, you look at like movies and stuff, like people go to they go and they cope with the pain of it.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, people of the world they'll go to the bar or they'll go, yeah, they'll go self-medicate in some way or fashion.
10:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, to your point, the the community aspect that you brought up, Adam, that you having the people around you to help you identify those things.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: Because not I know I've I've not just growing up, and I know you guys are talking about pruning.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Growing up, I've made a lot of rash decisions, not because I was pruning, just because I was reacting.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the that's the other side of this that a lot of people will tend to react to circumstances versus allowing God to actually prune things out of their own life.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, which I think that's the difference.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that that's a fair point.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: I think too, we can get twisted up in trying to hold on to things that are that are poisonous and toxic to us when God is clearly wanting to prune them.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: And so now it's an issue of of pride and disobedience.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: When God is, you know, and and and I I even think of just foolishness.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, if you have, I love what you said earlier, Adam, a pat uh, a pattern of thinking, you know, a belief system like kind of like the roots of a tree.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's obvious that there's something wrong with the root belief.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: It's obvious to you and everyone around you, yet still for some reason, I don't know if it's cognitiveness or pride or fear or whatever, you you are not allowing the Lord to come in and say, you know, I'm gonna take an axe to this thing.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: And I I have to excise it out of your life in order in order for you to have the fruitfulness that I desire for you to have and that you you frankly you yourself want to have.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: And and honestly, that's been my that's been some of the greatest pain that I have endured is just pride, pridefully holding on to things, a pattern of belief, a a habit, whether it be sinful or not, that I know is prohibiting and inhibiting fruitfulness in my life, you know.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
12:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, sure.
12:13
SPEAKER_04: I would I would push back just on one bit.
12:15
SPEAKER_04: We we said there, Willie, that it's obvious to you and those around you.
12:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
12:19
SPEAKER_04: Sometimes it's not.
12:20
SPEAKER_04: Well, it might be more obvious to you about me than it is to me about me, particularly if it's sinful related, because one of the consequences of sin is it hardens and it darkens.
12:30
SPEAKER_04: So I I become more difficult, it becomes more difficult for me to discern the speck in my own eye.
12:37
SPEAKER_04: I can see the log in yours very clearly.
12:38
SPEAKER_04: Sorry, I can see the the speck in yours very clearly, and I can't discern the log in my own.
12:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
12:43
SPEAKER_04: Which is why Jesus warned me about it.
12:44
SPEAKER_04: I think I think of the parables of Jesus, some of them are are quite um convoluted, quite frankly.
12:50
SPEAKER_04: And yet, and I think he does it on purpose, so we seek him.
12:52
SPEAKER_04: So he's like, Yeah, I want to tell you about it, but how much do you want it?
12:55
SPEAKER_04: There's others that are so clear that they don't need any explanation.
12:59
SPEAKER_04: Forgiveness, right?
13:00
SPEAKER_04: He didn't need to clarify that.
13:02
SPEAKER_04: Well, okay, that's very clear.
13:04
SPEAKER_04: I need I need forgiveness, right?
13:05
SPEAKER_04: I'm I need to be forgiving.
13:07
SPEAKER_04: But also with the log and the spec.
13:09
SPEAKER_04: Like he didn't need to clarify that.
13:10
SPEAKER_04: It's like, yeah, yes, I have logs in my eyes that are so hard for me to see for myself.
13:18
SPEAKER_04: And I think when we follow that process properly, and I discern with the Lord or others the log in my own eye, then I see clearly enough, but I also see humbly enough to help my brother with a speck in his eye.
13:31
SPEAKER_04: Because I am not coming to you like saying, Hey, brother Willie, we need to talk about X that's going on in your life, this speck.
13:37
SPEAKER_04: Well, I've just been dealing with the log, I'm not gonna come to you with a spirit of pride and well, mate, that's not something that I would ever do.
13:45
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna in in that way of Christ, you know, whole uh lowly and humble, and coming in that spirit of, amen.
13:53
SPEAKER_04: This I don't know if you can see this, I don't know if you can see it, but this is this is what I'm saying.
13:57
SPEAKER_04: This is my vantage point, yeah.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, and that's why and that's why the first part is where we need one another.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's why the first part of the conversation is abiding in Christ and identifying your position in Christ.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I am the vine, you're the branches.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: Like Christ is he's identifying who he is, and we're we're in submission to him, like and you know, and then out of that we're able to do all these other things for other people and others for us as well.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the importance of of godly relationships.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that listen, you tell I'm using this word segue a lot.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: I've used it twice in this podcast.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: That that's a lot.
14:32
SPEAKER_04: I didn't think I was the first one.
14:33
SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: I stealthily used it.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: So what what is I I again I that is a natural segue, though, into how God can use his people to be part of the pruning process as well, right?
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Like it is the spirit at work in you, right?
14:52
SPEAKER_01: It is the spirit, and it is the word serving as a mirror, like kind of showing you or revealing you to you your own heart motives and your intentions and sharpen that intuitive sword.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: But then it is iron sharpening iron.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: It is the book of Hebrews that says, let's consider, right, how to provoke one another, stir up one another to good works, like repentance and confession and forgiveness too as well.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: So, Adam, I do want to ask you this as a leader, how do you walk people through John 15?
15:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, how how how what's your process when you do have to?
15:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you used me as an example, but I'm sure you've had to have conversations like that.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: When you've had to walk people through John 15 and be part of God's pruning process and highlight some things that you feel like the Lord wants to put his finger on, what is what is your approach?
15:39
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
15:41
SPEAKER_04: My approach is like I I use the coaching framework a lot in terms of so what do you want?
15:48
SPEAKER_04: What what do you want?
15:49
SPEAKER_04: What do you want with your walk with with the Lord?
15:51
SPEAKER_04: You know, in Freedom and Joy Church, we are very intentional, as a lot of churches are in a school, very intentional around the language of we are a discipleship community.
16:01
SPEAKER_04: That's who we are.
16:03
SPEAKER_04: If if you just want to attend Freedom and Joy Christian events, that's that's not us, okay?
16:10
SPEAKER_04: We're not an event hosting place.
16:12
SPEAKER_04: Yes, we have events and things, but the core of who we are is a discipleship community.
16:16
SPEAKER_04: So that really helps pre-frame the conversation in the freedom and joy space and going, well, if you'd like to be a part of what we're doing here, we're a discipleship community.
16:24
SPEAKER_04: We want to be disciples of Jesus.
16:26
SPEAKER_04: Would you like to be a disciple of Jesus?
16:27
SPEAKER_04: Yes, okay, praise God.
16:29
SPEAKER_04: So then in looking at that, what would you like that to look like?
16:33
SPEAKER_04: What do you think Jesus would like that to look like in terms of freedom and joy?
16:37
SPEAKER_04: And what normally interferes with freedom and joy?
16:39
SPEAKER_04: There's only three things in my experience fear, confusion, and sin.
16:44
SPEAKER_04: Those are the three things that get in the way of freedom and joy.
16:47
SPEAKER_04: So it gives me some diagnostic tools to then just to be able to explore with people and go, okay, are you uh are you experiencing the freedom of Christ?
16:55
SPEAKER_04: Like, is that what's going on?
16:56
SPEAKER_04: Are there things that have entangled that have gotten in the way and I'm not feeling that freedom in my spirit?
17:01
SPEAKER_04: Okay, that's why why do you think that is?
17:03
SPEAKER_04: Let's let's explore.
17:04
SPEAKER_04: It's very diagnostic to help help the person figure out for themselves because I'm guessing you fellas have both seen inception.
17:12
SPEAKER_04: The idea is that if I'm coming in saying, Well, this is the idea that you need to accept, your unconscious mind is going to reject it because it knows it's my idea trying to be implanted into your mind.
17:22
SPEAKER_04: Right.
17:22
SPEAKER_04: And it's going to go, no, no, this is not me.
17:24
SPEAKER_04: Plus, that can get quite dysfunctional because I'm trying to get you to do what I want, rather than you figuring out what is the truth of Christ that you need to respond to.
17:33
SPEAKER_04: And I don't know how many times I've been in conversations with people and I'm 95% sure I know what the issue is and what the solution is, and I'll go, okay, they need to go down this path, A, B, C.
17:46
SPEAKER_04: And then I just listen a bit more, I question a bit more, and it's actually everything altogether.
17:51
SPEAKER_04: And I go, I'm glad that I didn't pre-frame them to go down this path because I'm I'm the leader, right?
17:58
SPEAKER_04: I'm the the spiritual expert, the theologian or whatever they want to call me, okay?
18:03
SPEAKER_04: So there's a willingness for them to want to please me, okay?
18:08
SPEAKER_04: And then, well, well, if Adam says it, I must be right, and that's that's a problem because if I don't take the time to really question and go, okay, but what is what's really going on here?
18:20
SPEAKER_04: Why has why has this addiction shown up again?
18:23
SPEAKER_04: Right?
18:23
SPEAKER_04: It's different this time to what it was last time.
18:25
SPEAKER_04: Okay, like there's what else is happening in your world?
18:28
SPEAKER_04: You've had a period of time where you've been free from the addiction and something's happened.
18:32
SPEAKER_04: What what was that?
18:33
SPEAKER_04: Let's let's go unpack and figure out what's the root of this.
18:37
SPEAKER_04: And then also acknowledging where I come to the end of my skill set and go, okay, this this is a bit beyond my pay grade.
18:44
SPEAKER_04: This is not that I don't care for you, it's not that I don't love you.
18:47
SPEAKER_04: I do, I just don't have the competence for it, right?
18:50
SPEAKER_04: Like there's things that are going on emotionally where you you probably could benefit from some professional mental health care.
18:56
SPEAKER_04: So I can walk with you along that way, but I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to overstep and go, well, I have all the answers.
19:02
SPEAKER_04: I don't.
19:03
SPEAKER_04: Jesus does.
19:04
SPEAKER_04: But sometimes those those answers come through someone else who's who's better qualified or better, you know, uh trained in that space.
19:10
SPEAKER_04: So I think when I'm having a conversation with someone around around pruning, I guess my my framework is always the hurt to healthy, the fit to fruitful.
19:18
SPEAKER_04: I look at that and go, okay, where is the person at?
19:21
SPEAKER_04: Are there some hurts that are going on that need to be healed?
19:24
SPEAKER_04: Do they need Dr.
19:25
SPEAKER_04: Jesus to heal the brokenness of heart and brokenness of soul?
19:28
SPEAKER_04: And if that's the case, well, let's let's begin to diagnose that.
19:31
SPEAKER_04: Figure out, well, why is it so?
19:33
SPEAKER_04: It could be a sin thing.
19:34
SPEAKER_04: It could be, it's not a sin thing.
19:36
SPEAKER_04: There's just some grief that I haven't worked through, you know, particularly in the Aussie culture.
19:40
SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure what it's like in America, but in Aussie culture, we're not very good in the whole grief thing.
19:45
SPEAKER_04: We don't do that very well.
19:46
SPEAKER_04: The the fellow elders we have at Freedom Enjoy Church.
19:49
SPEAKER_04: I've got a Nigerian gentleman, another Aussie lady is who I'm married to, and then there's Tong and Kwokama, right?
19:56
SPEAKER_04: So they have different ways of doing grief, which frankly are quite a bit healthier than how we do it as the as the Aussie people, okay?
20:03
SPEAKER_04: They've got a cultural process that is just there's an standing in the culture of these people who are in mourning.
20:09
SPEAKER_04: This is what's going on there, and it helps them to close the loop on that experience.
20:13
SPEAKER_04: So all of that to say is not necessarily sin.
20:16
SPEAKER_04: Does that make sense?
20:17
SPEAKER_04: Like and and I whether it is or isn't, I don't really care.
20:21
SPEAKER_04: The goal is to get you to healthy.
20:23
SPEAKER_04: If it's sin, then we need to confess, repent, and and do the the Jesus stuff, okay?
20:27
SPEAKER_04: He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin.
20:30
SPEAKER_04: If it's not, that's okay as well.
20:32
SPEAKER_04: The goal is still healthy.
20:34
SPEAKER_04: And how do I know if you're healthy?
20:36
SPEAKER_04: If you can give and receive love freely, if you can experience joy and celebrate the joy of others freely, you're probably in a fairly healthy space.
20:46
SPEAKER_04: I would I would propose.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: Man, that's so good.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: Wow, man.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: I you know what?
20:53
SPEAKER_01: Let me let me just say this.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Every time I talk to Adam, because I've known Adam about a little over a year now, I learn a few more vocabulary words, and I also end up sounding just a bit more Australian, Mike.
21:14
SPEAKER_04: Sorry about that.
21:15
SPEAKER_04: I apologize in advance.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: No, I appreciate it, man.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: I can I'm I'm about I'm I'm being I'm real close to being bilingual.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: In Jesus' name.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: So as we're just kind of landing the plane here, Adam, first of all, man, this has been a blessing.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: You've been a blessing, brother.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Like you were saying earlier, the goal of abiding, it's not just output, it's not just like doing the thing.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: I love when you said uh the the joy of the Lord is your strength, not the joy of ministry.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: That is so good.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is good.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: The joy of the Lord is our strength.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you look at verses nine through eleven of John five, uh John 15.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: And like you were saying, he's Jesus says, My joy will be in you.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: My joy will be in you.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And so thinking through this line here, just a thought, Elmer and I were just ruminating on a connected leader is a joyful leader.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: And joyless leadership is usually disconnected leadership that's wearing a busy costume.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: It's just it's draped in busyness.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: So what what what are your what are your thoughts?
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Hell, just help me kind of expound on that about Jesus' joy being full in us as leaders.
22:35
SPEAKER_04: So but I think where does Jesus' joy come from?
22:39
SPEAKER_04: I think it's in verse 9.
22:40
SPEAKER_04: As the Father loved me.
22:42
SPEAKER_04: So Jesus himself needs love.
22:45
SPEAKER_04: Not my love, not your love, but needs the love and the abiding of the Father.
22:49
SPEAKER_04: That creation was made from Father, Son, and Spirit who love each other and out of the overflow of love made us, right?
22:56
SPEAKER_04: Which then has free world implications and all that kind of thing.
23:00
SPEAKER_04: But remembering that Jesus' joy comes from the love of the Father.
23:04
SPEAKER_04: And our joy is meant to come from love of him.
23:08
SPEAKER_04: As the Father loved me, I also have loved you.
23:11
SPEAKER_04: Abide in my love.
23:12
SPEAKER_04: Like that when I am on the receiving end of that love, it's a joyful experience.
23:17
SPEAKER_04: Sometimes it's hard, okay?
23:18
SPEAKER_04: The storgo love, it's it's it's correctional things.
23:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's true.
23:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:22
SPEAKER_04: But I think one of the principles is that success comes from joy, not the other way around.
23:29
SPEAKER_04: Like when we remember that, I'll say that again, success comes from joy, not the other way around.
23:33
SPEAKER_04: When we remember that, like it it empowers their decisions.
23:38
SPEAKER_04: When I'm talking with pastors or thinking about it myself, uh, I'll say, so how's how's your joy going?
23:42
SPEAKER_04: In my conversations with you fellas, I always start.
23:44
SPEAKER_04: So what's what's bringing joy and fulfillment?
23:46
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
23:47
SPEAKER_04: Now, why do I do that?
23:48
SPEAKER_04: Not because I'm trying to do the rah-rah session or whatever.
23:50
SPEAKER_04: I want to know what are the sources of fuel, what are the sources of energy emotionally for you.
23:56
SPEAKER_04: Joy is going to empower you to make good quality decisions.
23:59
SPEAKER_04: That's what it's going to do.
24:01
SPEAKER_04: If you're in fear, if you're in confusion, the chances of you making good quality decisions that are going to serve Jesus and serve his people, it's it's unlikely.
24:09
SPEAKER_04: Can you do it?
24:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but the quality of your decision is going to suffer.
24:13
SPEAKER_04: If that joy of the Lord from abiding in Christ's love, if that's absent, it's going to be quite difficult for you to make good decisions.
24:20
SPEAKER_04: But when it's there, then you begin to see very clearly, hey, I really want to serve these people.
24:26
SPEAKER_04: I want to love these, I want to love the person in front of me, right?
24:29
SPEAKER_04: That's that is what I want to do.
24:31
SPEAKER_04: And of course, there can be layers of complexity to that.
24:34
SPEAKER_04: But when the overarching, the north star of I want to love you and serve you is here in my heart, my soul, my spirit, there's alignment.
24:42
SPEAKER_04: It's amazing how the unconscious mind just picks up things and the Holy Spirit will reveal things and and it'll just be like, yeah, this is what's going on in the world, in in their world, sorry.
24:51
SPEAKER_04: Now, where that gets disconnected, I think the we live by sight, not by faith.
24:56
SPEAKER_04: The busyness part is I need to keep myself busy because underneath that I feel like I fear I'm not enough.
25:03
SPEAKER_04: And I fear that I'm not loved, right?
25:06
SPEAKER_04: There's there's a saying that says, you know, there's two emotional fears that drive human behavior, fear of not being loved, fear of not being enough.
25:12
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
25:13
SPEAKER_04: Fortunately, both of those are addressed in Romans 8 verse 37, which says we are more than conquerors, more than enough.
25:19
SPEAKER_04: How?
25:20
SPEAKER_04: Through him who loves us.
25:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah right.
25:23
SPEAKER_04: When that truth becomes in here, and it's it's a discipline.
25:28
SPEAKER_04: When you're in the moment, you're having a fight with the wife, or the whoever else, and you remind yourself, Jesus, you promise me your joy.
25:36
SPEAKER_04: I receive it by faith now, Lord.
25:38
SPEAKER_04: I just I I receive that by faith.
25:40
SPEAKER_04: And in that, Lord, I want to love and serve my wife.
25:45
SPEAKER_04: I want to love and serve my pastor, I want to love and serve the person who's in front of me.
25:49
SPEAKER_04: And this can be the internal prayer, right?
25:51
SPEAKER_04: Like it's taking the breath and praying it.
25:54
SPEAKER_04: How do I how do I best love and serve this person right now?
25:57
SPEAKER_04: When that flows through and you're on the receiving end of it, hopefully you guys have experienced like you go, yeah, okay.
26:04
SPEAKER_04: Like I'm I'm being served now, and we are together seeing kingdom come and will be done.
26:10
SPEAKER_04: There's one more step towards righteousness, one more step towards peace, towards joy in the Holy Spirit.
26:15
SPEAKER_04: Because eating and drinking is a lot of fun, right?
26:17
SPEAKER_04: Love doing it.
26:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:18
SPEAKER_04: But the kingdom of God is righteous as peace you are in the Holy Spirit.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you see.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you see that modeled in in some of the the giants of the faith.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, just even in scripture itself, Paul, a lot of the persecution that he endured and the hardship that he went through, he still found joy in preaching to others.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: Like the prison guard wanted to take his life.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, hey, we're here.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we ain't we haven't gone anywhere.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, and just the the ministry he was doing, I think, of of so many others, even on our on our end of the calendar, you know, that have given their lives to like and and not so much like even Christians per se, but like, but people that have committed themselves to the work of the Lord, yeah, that have endured a lot of hard things for the sake of the gospel to move forward.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I agree with you, Adam, in the sense that that joy is not the measure of success itself.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, because the way that we define it in our in our western society, right, you know, having the things, having the life that we take out all the boxes, we check all the boxes, and uh, you know, I have the the wife, the kids, the house, the cars, you know, the the savings account, the retirement account, all that stuff.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not that success doesn't leave because there's people that have that, yeah, you know, and uh and and they're still poor in spirit.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it it's what what the joy of the Lord edifies our soul, it edifies our inner man.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: And so there's it's it's so different.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: And that's why as believers, sometimes we'll be walking through some really difficult times in life.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: People that have, you know, they've been diagnosed with cancer or or some other diseases, and and they can still come to church, they can still worship, they can still lift their hand, they can still lead somebody to Christ.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and you know, a lot of people would give them a reason to just kind of go home and shut themselves in a room and cry and feel bad for themselves.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: But when you have the joy of the Lord, it gives you purpose, it it just reignites that passion that God's given you, and it doesn't count you out, yeah.
28:25
SPEAKER_04: You know, yeah, it's no, and I uh we've been going through the book of Hebrews at uh Freedom and Joy Church, and and we're we're on uh Spotify now, so you can check out the Freedom and Joy sermons on Spotify, which is pretty cool.
28:38
SPEAKER_04: All right, and my friend Caradorf, he did this amazing sermon on Sunday, like probably the best I've heard Hebrews 11 preached about.
28:47
SPEAKER_04: And he said that faith is not only for faith, sorry, yeah, faith is not only to produce joy to enjoy, but joy to endure.
28:57
SPEAKER_04: Because the joy for the joy set before him, he endured the cross.
29:02
SPEAKER_04: Okay, so you have the the apostle of our faith, the grand high apostle, the high priest, or Jesus who's the author of the perfecter.
29:09
SPEAKER_04: But then the author of Hebrews goes on and gives case studies of people who enjoyed the consequence of their faith and of their joy, right?
29:17
SPEAKER_04: Like they, yeah, this is good.
29:19
SPEAKER_04: But then in verse 33, sorry 35, it changes tune, goes in a different direction.
29:27
SPEAKER_04: Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection.
29:32
SPEAKER_04: For a number of the saints, they endured the joy that they got from their faith, gave them strength to endure, not enjoy.
29:40
SPEAKER_03: Right.
29:40
SPEAKER_04: Does that make sense?
29:41
SPEAKER_04: And I think that gets lost an awful lot.
29:44
SPEAKER_04: Where we see, and understandably, like the first two-thirds of Hebrews 11 are the the the glorious, victorious things, okay?
29:51
SPEAKER_04: I'm not against glory or victory, like those things, those things are good.
29:54
SPEAKER_04: But the scripture does also say, which gets less emphasis, but more experientially, we perhaps have where the joy is given to us to be able to endure, not not necessarily enjoy.
30:06
SPEAKER_04: And I think when that becomes the that becomes a part of our understanding, part of our worldview, part of our paradigm, we've got okay, the faith, faith produces joy.
30:15
SPEAKER_04: That's that's one of its outworkings.
30:17
SPEAKER_04: But the joy is to enjoy.
30:18
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, praise God, hallelujah.
30:20
SPEAKER_04: And the joy is also to endure.
30:23
SPEAKER_04: Like there is there is that as well.
30:25
SPEAKER_04: And when that becomes I remember that in the midst of I'm gonna do this again, yeah, I do.
30:30
SPEAKER_04: Okay, thank you, Jesus.
30:32
SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Jesus.
30:32
SPEAKER_04: You promised your peace, your joy.
30:35
SPEAKER_04: Okay, well, you endured quite a lot for me.
30:37
SPEAKER_04: All right, let's do this.
30:38
SPEAKER_04: You you show me the way.
30:39
SPEAKER_04: You you show me the way.
30:40
SPEAKER_04: Let's let's do this.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: In the context of in the context of ministry, I think we have it so much better than like most people, in the sense of we have the privilege of doing this as a career in a sense.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is our livelihood.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: And and I know for Pastor Willie and I.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: And Adam, when I look at what you've been able to accomplish, not just not just in planting a church, but in also loving and leading people through your coaching, like you're you're doing a lot and you're enduring.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: I know you could you could pick one or the other, like you could live off of coaching, but there's there's there's a call to serving and loving people and establishing a community of disciples.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: And and so you're responding to the call of the Lord.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: And and a lot of it, it's it's and you know, being in ministry and and we were quit a bit transparent last week, it's not easy.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: It's not like rainbows and gummy bears, like my wife would say, you know, it's it's difficult, it's it's it's a burden, it's a weight that we carry, you know, on behalf of the people that we get to pastor and lead.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's also a great privilege.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the difference that when we're enduring and we're enjoying, if you're in ministry because you want to enjoy this, that weight will break you.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: But if you're in this because you understand that the joy of the Lord will, you know, will give you that strength to endure, yeah.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, for the sake of reaching one more person for Jesus.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it just it actually fires you up.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: And people freak out, they're like, you're weird.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, like, why do you do what you do?
32:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, and that's I I just see that I mean, it's crazy.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: Man, that's so good.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: Come on, man.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: You preaching, Omer.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, to to your you know, to your point, I love man, I love that statement you just sit there, like, you know, like checking your motive behind why you're doing this, you know, and because and I think you you've you've maybe heard people say this too, Adam.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: Like whenever somebody approaches you or approaches another pastor about wanting to get into ministry, they'll say, hey, don't do it, man.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Let's all ice cream.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Like just you know what I mean?
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Because this is a call, it's a heavy call, but it is, it is a high call.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: And when you have the mindset, just for our audience that's listening, our faithful listeners and viewers, just please, please know you have to start with John 15 and let that be the impetus for why you start and stay in ministry.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: Like when if you're called to it, I would memorize, like, you know, we talk about tattoo verses.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, this would be one I would tattoo on my eyeballs.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, I got some big real estate on my eyeballs now in Jesus' name.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: And I would just, man, I want Jesus to number one first, I want the father to be the vine dresser.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I want him to prune.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: I want to stay connected and attached to the vine.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: And as the like I love when you tease that on verse nine, as the father's love on the son, I'm bathing in that love, and then his joy will be in me.
33:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: Because not if, but when ministry gets hard, when people offend you, when they backbite you, when they scandalize your name, your joy will remain full because your joy comes from the son.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: The Lord.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Which comes from the father.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: Come on, man.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, it's like with your with your children, like they're gonna hurt your feelings.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna listen at times, but you're not gonna go return them or get a refund, you know?
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: You can't.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: And so when you're called to certain people, like it's gonna hurt.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: They're gonna hurt you.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: And you can't you can't carry the offense.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: You have to take it to the Lord.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: And that's the beauty of abiding in in the Lord, and that that He takes He takes that weight on our behalf.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: So when He says, Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy burden, and I will give you rest.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: It's not when you're at the end of your rope, it's a daily thing that, you know, when not until you're at your wit's end.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: That should be our place of where we recharge, where we refresh.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: And I believe a lot of us in ministry, myself included, will just kind of hit play or we just you know step on the accelerator and we go and go and go.
34:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: And we just wait until we're on empty to to actually put that into practice and we say, Yeah, I'm a branch, he's the vine.
34:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: But we wait till the last second to really find rest in that position.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: Because when you think of a branch, a branch is just hanging out.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's right.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: It ain't doing anything.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: It ain't doing nothing, man.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, it's it's the recipient.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like the branch is the branch doesn't nourish the vine.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh-oh, it's an appendage, it's attached to it, and it becomes the recipient of the nutrients and the life and the vitality and everything.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: So that's what we get to do.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: We just get to abide.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't have to actively abide in my home.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: I just go home and sit there.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: And so that's what we get to do.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: We get to actively abide with Christ.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: And Adam, man, I'm just, man, we're so thankful and blessed to have you on here, brother.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, again, you're our coach with Vantage.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: And so, how how can people then want to connect with you and reach out?
35:30
SPEAKER_01: How can they uh find you?
35:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, sure.
35:33
SPEAKER_04: So uh a couple of ways, we've uh launched a site called thinkforchristsake.com.
35:38
SPEAKER_04: So you can um connect with us there.
35:40
SPEAKER_04: Uh the idea being that thinking is a means of expression of worship to the Lord, and so we want to be thinking about things that create, create, celebrate, and enjoy truth, goodness, beauty.
35:50
SPEAKER_04: That's sort of the ethos of it.
35:52
SPEAKER_04: Also, vantagepointpastors.com for anyone in the pastoral space who wants to have a conversation there about perhaps doing some coaching, those kinds of things.
36:01
SPEAKER_04: First conversation, first conversation is uh non-committal, no cost to it.
36:06
SPEAKER_04: It's just diagnostic, you know, how you go, uh, what's going on in your world, how's your freedom and joy?
36:11
SPEAKER_04: How are those things going?
36:12
SPEAKER_04: And and if there's potential for service and ongoing partnership there, we can do that.
36:17
SPEAKER_04: And you can check us out on the Spotify, Freedom Enjoy church sermons as well on Spotify.
36:23
SPEAKER_04: That's awesome.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: You gotta you gotta pick that up, Willie, when you talk to people in pastoral care.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: How you going?
36:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what yeah.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: See, I told you I'd get more, I'd be I become more Australian, so I'm gonna start saying that.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: How you going?
36:35
SPEAKER_01: I say, what?
36:36
SPEAKER_01: How you how am I going?
36:37
SPEAKER_01: I drove here.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have a lot of fun with that.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be fun.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: Hey, once again, Adam, we love you, bro.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: We're so grateful for you.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for all of you that are listening.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: And until next week, peace.