Latest / The MOOD Podcast / Your Story Isn’t Needed - Pie Aerts Finds Meaning Within The Pressure Machine Of Photography, E108

Transcript

Your Story Isn’t Needed - Pie Aerts Finds Meaning Within The Pressure Machine Of Photography, E108 · The MOOD Podcast

• 0:00
  Pie Aerts: This is a tricky, tricky subject to speak about.
• 0:02
  Pie Aerts: But what we're like, what why am I doing this?
• 0:05
  Pie Aerts: Self-doubt is the one thing you need to embrace as an artist.
• 0:09
  Matt Jacob: How do you sit with this kind of moral tension after being doing it for so many years and these ethical responsibilities of that you have?
• 0:16
  Pie Aerts: I'm having a hard time in defining what type of photographer I am.
• 0:20
  Pie Aerts: But in the end of the day, at one recurring threat is I'm always looking for an angle of hope.
• 0:26
  Pie Aerts: And it's the one thing I'm missing in an attempt to try to explain why we seem increasingly disconnected not only from each other, but also from ourselves and mostly also from our environment.
• 0:37
  Matt Jacob: Let's go into what we really want to talk about.
• 0:40
  Matt Jacob: You know, you mentioned that your project is down in Chile.
• 0:42
  Matt Jacob: How do you approach a culture minister?
• 0:59
  Matt Jacob: Subculture minute people that don't want to be voted.
• 1:04
  Pie Aerts: At first instance, it felt like I was doing a story on the duality of isolation, which is really still about that.
• 1:10
  Pie Aerts: On the one hand, you can see these guys battling with the mental consequences of living an entire life in isolation.
• 1:17
  Pie Aerts: They might be forever solidified as the last generation of this culture.
• 1:22
  Pie Aerts: They fear retiring more than they fear dying.
• 1:26
  Pie Aerts: A story I'll never forget is.
• 1:31
  Matt Jacob: Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time.
• 1:38
  Matt Jacob: I'm your host, Matt Jacob.
• 1:40
  Matt Jacob: Thank you so much for joining me in today's conversation.
• 1:43
  Matt Jacob: My guest this week is friend and fantastic photographer P.
• 1:47
  Matt Jacob: Arts.
• 1:48
  Matt Jacob: He's a documentary and wildlife photographer whose work sits at the intersection of human presence, conservation, long-form storytelling, and the impact of humanity on nature and the relationship within.
• 2:01
  Matt Jacob: P is the founder of Prince for Wildlife, a platform that's raised over $2 million for conservation, and his practice spans commercial assignments, editorial work, expeditions around the world, and deeply personal long-form projects.
• 2:15
  Matt Jacob: Since we last spoke on the podcast two years ago, P has really evolved and continued to lead expeditions globally and is now preparing to release a major long-term body of work photographed in Chile with the gauchos published later this year with Ghost.
• 2:32
  Matt Jacob: In my conversation with him, we reflect on what has shifted over the last two years, revisiting themes of hope and despair before going a little bit deeper into the role that expeditions play in peace, life, and livelihood, what travel and presence really mean in a fractured world, and what the responsibility is that of it, and the ethical tensions that sit beneath storytelling and conservation.
• 2:57
  Matt Jacob: But really, the conversation gravitates completely towards the meat of his work right now, which is his most significant long-term project to date, and that's the project with the Puesteros, the Gauchos of Chile, a project that has unfolded over many years and now takes form as a forthcoming book to be published, as I mentioned, with Gost.
• 3:18
  Matt Jacob: We spend a substantial part of the conversation unpacking how the project began, how it evolved, what it means to stay with this story over so long, and what ethical responsibility emerges when documenting a way of life that is slowly disappearing.
• 3:37
  Matt Jacob: But before we begin the conversation, I actually want to play a short piece that introduces this project of his and the relevant Kickstarter campaign that will fund the book's publication.
• 3:49
  Matt Jacob: The campaign has just launched and will run for the next four weeks.
• 3:53
  Matt Jacob: And the next two minutes of this podcast offers important context for the project, for the conversation I had with him.
• 4:01
  Matt Jacob: So if you want to support his incredible project, then you can do so using the links in the show notes.
• 4:07
  Matt Jacob: So let's start with that short piece from P now, and then we'll move into the podcast conversation after that.
• 4:15
  Matt Jacob: I hope you enjoy.
• 4:30
  Pie Aerts: In an attempt to explore why we seem increasingly disconnected from each other, ourselves, and our natural environment.
• 4:37
  Pie Aerts: It was on that journey where I was first drawn to the quiet, solitary existence of Chilean puesteros.
• 4:51
  Pie Aerts: Ranch workers who live in isolated cabins, managing livestock on remote ranches or being employed by ranch owners.
• 4:59
  Pie Aerts: In my personal life, I've long battled anxiety.
• 5:03
  Pie Aerts: As long as I can remember, I feared being alone.
• 5:06
  Pie Aerts: Yet, by spending time with these puesteros, I came to understand the duality of loneliness.
• 5:12
  Pie Aerts: On the one hand, I've witnessed them battle with the mental consequences of sitting through a lifetime of stillness, hardship, and endurance.
• 5:19
  Pie Aerts: But at the same time, they seem to possess a rare capacity to exist within that solitude, a quality that feels almost entirely lost in the world I come from.
• 5:28
  Pie Aerts: Slowly, over the course of six years, the stoic curtain began to fall, and fortitude gave way to vulnerability.
• 5:36
  Pie Aerts: With your help, this story can now become a joke.
• 5:41
  Pie Aerts: A story that explores the intimate world of some of these last posters.
• 5:45
  Pie Aerts: A meditation on stillness, human resilience, and the inevitable passing of time.
• 5:51
  Pie Aerts: A portrait of men living at the edge of the world, pushing through because they must, through silence, endurance, and repetition.
• 5:59
  Pie Aerts: All funds raised through this Kickstarter will go to the production, printing, and distribution of this book.
• 6:07
  Pie Aerts: For each book sold, I am donating a percentage to the Esperanza Housing Project, a local charity that provides retirement housing to retired for us in the region.
• 6:17
  Pie Aerts: Together, we can preserve the story and the legacy of these gentlemen.
• 6:22
  Pie Aerts: I am forever thankful for your support.
• 6:24
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, likewise.
• 7:01
  Matt Jacob: It's gone fast.
• 7:02
  Matt Jacob: Tell me what's been happening.
• 7:03
  Matt Jacob: Oh wow, yeah.
• 7:04
  Matt Jacob: A lot has been happening.
• 7:06
  Pie Aerts: Um I have another kid.
• 7:08
  Pie Aerts: Congratulations.
• 7:09
  Pie Aerts: To begin with.
• 7:10
  Pie Aerts: Thank you, thank you.
• 7:11
  Pie Aerts: Um that was the biggest change.
• 7:15
  Pie Aerts: We left the city.
• 7:16
  Pie Aerts: So we're now living in the countryside, which is also pretty pleasant.
• 7:21
  Pie Aerts: Work is moving.
• 7:24
  Pie Aerts: Um yeah, I'm happy.
• 7:26
  Pie Aerts: I'm happy.
• 7:27
  Pie Aerts: I mean, the landscape has changed, the world is is changing more faster than ever before, but um I'm in a good place in terms of work, so that's at least giving some form of comfort.
• 7:41
  Matt Jacob: For those that may not know you, um uh may not have uh seen your stuff or um seen you around, give us uh an overview of your bona fides and experience and pedigree in the in the photography world and a bit of an elevator pitch to uh to describe to people who you are, what you do.
• 8:01
  Pie Aerts: One minute, two minutes.
• 8:02
  Pie Aerts: We've got as long as you want.
• 8:04
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, um in my work, I think I'm exploring uh kind of the I sometimes sometimes call it the I like the word, the melancholic relationship between people and place.
• 8:20
  Pie Aerts: And uh that comes in many different versions, uh, but always in an attempt to try to explain why we seem increasingly disconnected, not only from each other, but also from ourselves and mostly also from our environment.
• 8:36
  Pie Aerts: So that sometimes sends me into a documentary people some people call it lyrical documentary avenue.
• 8:46
  Pie Aerts: Sometimes it sends me into wildlife photography, sometimes there is a crossover between the two where you could say it's about human wildlife coexistence.
• 8:57
  Pie Aerts: So I haven't I'm having a hard time in defining uh what type of photographer I am.
• 9:03
  Pie Aerts: But in the end of the day, I think one recurring threat is um is I'm always looking for uh an angle of hope.
• 9:14
  Pie Aerts: It's the one thing I'm missing.
• 9:17
  Pie Aerts: Um I'm sure you agree.
• 9:19
  Pie Aerts: Increasingly, year after year, it's kind of disappearing.
• 9:23
  Pie Aerts: So that is something you will recognize in most of my work, hopefully.
• 9:28
  Pie Aerts: Um yeah, so it's a it's a very um extended version of my elevator pitch.
• 9:36
  Matt Jacob: When you say hope, uh hope in what respect?
• 9:39
  Matt Jacob: You just mean with humanit the the relationship between humanity and uh humans and nature?
• 9:44
  Matt Jacob: Um because we talked about this last time.
• 9:47
  Matt Jacob: I I I got a few notes in terms of what we talked about last time um when it came to hope versus despair.
• 9:53
  Matt Jacob: This was a a big thing of what you uh has been running through your work as far as I've known you.
• 9:58
  Matt Jacob: So I kind of want to hear about w what you mean by hope exactly and whether art can you feel like art can still move that needle and and kind of bring that disconnect a little bit closer?
• 10:10
  Matt Jacob: Sounds like it has Yeah, yeah.
• 10:12
  Pie Aerts: Um it still has a big influence on on my on how I look at projects and how I look at photography and how I navigate life.
• 10:21
  Pie Aerts: See how I look at I think art is the language of the heart, and we're communicating too much with our heads, our ratio.
• 10:30
  Pie Aerts: And I do believe that art has a power to to bring people together, uh to heal, uh, to console.
• 10:40
  Pie Aerts: It is something that's easily overlooked as leftist bullet in a world that is like extremely polarizing.
• 10:48
  Pie Aerts: So where where we're kind of growing apart, I think art is one of those industries or one of those um ecosystems that can actually build bridges and bring people back together, uh by kind of offering a different form of dialogue.
• 11:05
  Pie Aerts: Uh a dialogue in which you might see something of yourself in someone else.
• 11:11
  Pie Aerts: So it kind of mirrors in a way.
• 11:14
  Pie Aerts: Uh that for me is one of the most powerful aspects of it, whether it's poetry or music or photography or writing or theater.
• 11:23
  Pie Aerts: There's so many forms, even sculpture, any form of art, I think, is bridging that gap.
• 11:28
  Pie Aerts: And um what it does to me mostly is giving hope in these dark times.
• 11:35
  Pie Aerts: So it's I mean, negativity easily sells.
• 11:39
  Pie Aerts: I think that's what we currently see.
• 11:40
  Pie Aerts: Fear is is one of the most powerful tools in in dividing people.
• 11:46
  Pie Aerts: And I think it's our responsibility as artists or as humans in general.
• 11:50
  Pie Aerts: I think you don't even have to be an artist, but to just bridge that gap.
• 11:55
  Matt Jacob: And I I feel like in your work you've embraced that uncertainness a little bit more, that ambiguity a lot more in terms of expressing your stories and the the photos that you you put together, put out there.
• 12:09
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, I mean, the the funny thing, and and um maybe photographer other photographers listening recognize that or other artists, is that the sometimes the rate at which you develop into a certain direction is happening so fast that you kind of disconnect from work you've been doing previously faster than you actually would like to.
• 12:30
  Pie Aerts: And that has been happening a lot to me in the last five, six years.
• 12:35
  Pie Aerts: And um, I wouldn't say necessarily since the last time we spoke in 24, but it's happening all the time.
• 12:41
  Pie Aerts: So it kind of means that when I'm looking back, I can see a place for all the work I did, but in a way, I've outgrown a lot of that work as well.
• 12:50
  Pie Aerts: So uh uh within the context of the project I'm I'm currently working on, or the project I just finalized in Patagonia, I'm sure we talk about it on this chat.
• 13:00
  Pie Aerts: I can see many of these waves.
• 13:03
  Pie Aerts: It's been six years uh since the start of it.
• 13:06
  Pie Aerts: And uh when I look at the the photographer who shot the first two years, I see a different person and a different artistic expression than the second two years and the last two years.
• 13:16
  Pie Aerts: So I think that is beautiful, but at the same time, it can be challenging if it's a longer form body of work in which it has to be kind of cohesive.
• 13:24
  Pie Aerts: I mean, it doesn't have to be, but you want it to be cohesive.
• 13:26
  Pie Aerts: And certainly in my career as a visual um artist, I've been going through many of these phases in which I've been embracing maybe poetry more as a reference to the work I do.
• 13:41
  Pie Aerts: So the absence of information has has rapidly in the last three, four years uh have been has been growing on me in a different type of photographic storytelling than before, if that makes sense.
• 13:54
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, well, and why has that changed for you?
• 13:58
  Matt Jacob: What where has that evolution come from?
• 13:59
  Matt Jacob: Has it come from the you know, inspirations, influences, and you've obviously grown in exposure and uh visibility over the over the last few years?
• 14:09
  Matt Jacob: How has that all impacted kind of that emotional relationship or the the evolution of that that part of your work?
• 14:17
  Pie Aerts: I think a lot comes with maturing and aging.
• 14:19
  Pie Aerts: I'm getting old, Matt.
• 14:23
  Matt Jacob: I think it also comes with what are you 40?
• 14:25
  Pie Aerts: I'm 40, yeah, yeah.
• 14:27
  Pie Aerts: My dad always says that's not old, you know.
• 14:31
  Matt Jacob: It's not old.
• 14:32
  Matt Jacob: It's all relative, man.
• 14:33
  Matt Jacob: You don't feel old, yeah.
• 14:35
  Matt Jacob: But you feel old when you got a couple of couple of couple of kids running around.
• 14:39
  Pie Aerts: The thing is, I don't feel old.
• 14:40
  Pie Aerts: So yeah, it's uh I just look old.
• 14:43
  Pie Aerts: No.
• 14:44
  Pie Aerts: But no, you don't.
• 14:47
  Pie Aerts: Um uh well becoming a dad was a big thing for me in uh in in readjusting my my look at my work.
• 14:55
  Pie Aerts: Um uh becoming a dad for the second time was confirming that notion of having to change things in a way.
• 15:03
  Pie Aerts: I think I mean I mean, I'm not coming from a photography background, I'm coming from a completely opposite background, business.
• 15:09
  Pie Aerts: And I made a transition into photography.
• 15:12
  Pie Aerts: People want to hear the story, they can listen the previous podcast.
• 15:15
  Pie Aerts: But I made a transition into photography in 2018, 2019, actually.
• 15:20
  Pie Aerts: And um, that for me always was a like uh a rat, well, no, I wouldn't say a rat race, but a race towards closing the gap on creation because I'm coming from a world of commerce, and I always felt I was lacking that creative capacity of coming to a certain level of doing longer form, meaningful work, projects you work on for many, many years.
• 15:42
  Pie Aerts: And I increasingly over the last couple of years, I felt the need to make things deeper and more connecting and more intentional.
• 15:51
  Pie Aerts: But at the same time, I also felt a well, not a need, but an urge to make income because I have two kids to raise.
• 16:00
  Pie Aerts: And that has been a massive inner struggle in which I always felt I had to push for deeper work.
• 16:06
  Pie Aerts: But as we all know, longer form, deeper stories, there's not much money in it.
• 16:10
  Pie Aerts: There's a lot of heart in it and tears, but not a lot of money.
• 16:15
  Pie Aerts: So that on the one hand was happening, but on the other hand, I've I had to develop a model in which I could make an income that could sustain a family as a freelance photographer.
• 16:28
  Pie Aerts: I'm not doing much client work, I'm not doing much editorial work anymore.
• 16:32
  Pie Aerts: So my answer to that question has been to start an expedition business in which I curate and build small uh, let's say eight to ten people privately uh hosted by myself, expeditions to very remote regions where I was doing work already, and uh uh some of them being Himalayas, Patagonia, places in Africa, just to keep going to those places, to keep investing in my network of operators there, to keep working on meaningful stories in those places, but at the same time, uh building an income out of it that would be a that would be like a funding engine for my personal work.
• 17:13
  Pie Aerts: So I've made kind of a split in the the last couple of years, in which part of my time and part of my resources goes towards building a, I'd say, I wouldn't say commercial, but it's um it's it it runs as a commercial business.
• 17:28
  Pie Aerts: Expeditions, on the other hand, I'm using the income coming out of expeditions to finance longer form books, uh impact projects, uh charity work I do, uh NGO work and so on.
• 17:40
  Pie Aerts: And so far, so good.
• 17:42
  Pie Aerts: It kind of works.
• 17:43
  Matt Jacob: If you're enjoying this conversation and if you're drawn to this kind of slow reflective discussions we have on this podcast, then I want to let you know about my free closed community book club, which might be something that you genuinely find value in.
• 17:58
  Matt Jacob: The Voice Alchemy Book Club is kind of an extension of these types of conversations.
• 18:05
  Matt Jacob: Each month we focus on one of three types of work a book, a photo book, or a photo critique, and we meet online to sit with it properly, asking ourselves what it's meant to one another, what we can maybe learn from it, what ideas and actions we can take from it, what it's wrestling with, and what it asks of us as viewers and creators are.
• 18:28
  Matt Jacob: It's a space for deeper introspection, long-form thinking, and really honest discussions around photography, creativity, and authorship.
• 18:39
  Matt Jacob: There's no pressure to perform at all, no chasing trends, no algorithms, no need to have everything figured out, just honest, authentic connection with fellow like-minded creators, careful, collaborative looking, thoughtful and meaningful conversation, and a community of people who care about staying with the work long enough for it to mean something.
• 19:02
  Matt Jacob: So if this episode and this podcast generally resonates with you, which I hope it does, the book club is a natural place to continue that way of thinking and actually participate for free with others that will be open and welcoming to you and your ideas.
• 19:19
  Matt Jacob: You'll find more details via the link in the show notes, and I really hope to see you there.
• 19:25
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, and uh being one of the participants of your expedition in the Ladakh uh when was it?
• 19:33
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, end of 2024, wasn't it?
• 19:35
  Matt Jacob: That was epic.
• 19:36
  Matt Jacob: Um, you certainly do it, do it well and do it right, in my opinion.
• 19:39
  Matt Jacob: So uh that's probably um probably a lot of the reason why it's been so successful.
• 19:44
  Matt Jacob: But it's we've talked about this before, like there'll always be people that want to travel, you know, with you know, threat of AI is always there, threat of homogenization, you know, complete dilution of revenue models in in freelance photography.
• 19:57
  Matt Jacob: There will always be a desire for people to want to go and see the rest of the world and and also take a camera with them.
• 20:04
  Matt Jacob: And now I know that a lot of you are uh some of the people that come on your expeditions aren't aren't photographers, but um you know I think that's almost a bulletproof business model.
• 20:13
  Matt Jacob: And um, yeah, kudos to you for that.
• 20:14
  Matt Jacob: I think certainly too well what what let's move into expeditions quickly because uh I'm interested, I don't think I've asked you this before, but why um reel off some of the locations you go to because some of them are not weird and wonderful, but they are unique.
• 20:29
  Matt Jacob: And I want to know the reasons why, where, how, and why those destinations came about for your expeditions.
• 20:36
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, so one of my golden rules in in hosting these trips, um, I'm I'm positioning myself in a very high-end segment.
• 20:43
  Pie Aerts: It's uh there I'm aware that the trips are expensive.
• 20:47
  Pie Aerts: Uh so with that ex with that price comes a certain responsibility to give back at first, to give back to communities I work with, but also to deliver a 10 out of 10 product if people are actually putting down a good amount of money to come on this trip.
• 21:03
  Pie Aerts: And for many people, it is a once-in-a-lifetime experience.
• 21:06
  Pie Aerts: Some people bring very close relatives.
• 21:08
  Pie Aerts: I've had many people bring their parents or a father and a daughter, or just newlyweds, or two friends.
• 21:16
  Pie Aerts: Uh, it is built around solo travel, but more and more I see it's gonna it's becoming a mix of solo and couple travel or friend travel.
• 21:23
  Pie Aerts: I mean, it it taps into a few big trends within the travel industry.
• 21:27
  Pie Aerts: And and I mean, you said it already, since our last chat, the entire landscape has completely shifted and changed.
• 21:35
  Pie Aerts: And one of my like absolute existential threats, and one thing that I can sometimes wake up shivering at night is obviously AI, like everyone else.
• 21:44
  Pie Aerts: And my answer to AI is still unknown.
• 21:47
  Pie Aerts: Um I'm I'm shifting between embracing it and resisting it.
• 21:51
  Pie Aerts: But my kind of temporary answer for now has been let's do these expeditions because there will always be a demand for reality, as you say, and there will always be people that.
• 21:59
  Pie Aerts: Want to feel and smell and touch places and be there with other people in a group that is carefully curated.
• 22:05
  Pie Aerts: And but one of my golden rules in doing these trips over the years became that I only want to bring people that pay that, that are willing to pay that price and put their themselves out there to places I know throughout and throughout.
• 22:17
  Pie Aerts: Right.
• 22:18
  Pie Aerts: So it became a rule to not go to a place with my guests that I haven't been visiting three to five times, at least myself without guests.
• 22:26
  Pie Aerts: So that kind of narrowed the landscape down to places I've been doing most of my work in the last couple of years, which is Kenya, Zambia, Botswana, Himalayas, Patagonia.
• 22:36
  Pie Aerts: And now increasingly I'm moving into the Arctic and building up some like network and contacts and experience there.
• 22:43
  Pie Aerts: So the reason I picked those places in the first place is because of my network and the fact that it is all human business.
• 22:50
  Pie Aerts: So you need to know your way around the best guides, the best hospitality companies, the even the best people on the ground.
• 22:58
  Pie Aerts: Outside of guides to work with, you want to work with the best drivers, but above above anything else, you want to work with communities you have very strong relationships with.
• 23:06
  Pie Aerts: And you've been seeing it in Ladakh yourself.
• 23:08
  Pie Aerts: That's been like more than five years in the works of finding access into communities that are actually this is a tricky, tricky subject to speak about, but that I feel are benefiting from our visit in a way that they are compensated.
• 23:23
  Pie Aerts: The community councils are compensated.
• 23:25
  Pie Aerts: It's all been being done from the idea that the interaction and the experience is always priority.
• 23:33
  Pie Aerts: It's not a photo trip.
• 23:34
  Pie Aerts: It is about the experience, and we document it using photography.
• 23:37
  Pie Aerts: So it is, it's been a journey to build it.
• 23:40
  Pie Aerts: I mean, in Africa, it's it's easier because you're working with with animals, and it's much easier to be with a group of six or eight photographers and photograph an ecosystem and a landscape and an animal than it is working with people.
• 23:54
  Pie Aerts: So I've been navigating this landscape step by step with a lot of intention and a lot of care.
• 24:00
  Pie Aerts: Um and so far, I'm I'm I'm I'm I have to say I'm proud of where we where where we got.
• 24:06
  Pie Aerts: I'm doing like six trips every year, everything sells out.
• 24:09
  Pie Aerts: People go home with unique experiences, uh, retention rates are good.
• 24:14
  Pie Aerts: So if people come once, they want to come on another trip.
• 24:16
  Pie Aerts: So I mean, it was never my plan to become a agent, tour agent, or a tour guide, because in the first place I'm a photographer, but I'm coming from a background that is hospitality and and commerce, and I kind of build bringing those two worlds together.
• 24:31
  Pie Aerts: So my deep love for hospitality business, as in hotels, restaurants, just making people feel comfortable and at ease, I can kind of bring that into my love for photographic storytelling and bring those two worlds together.
• 24:44
  Pie Aerts: And that is one of the reasons why why I'm working with these strong hospitality partners that really give 10 out of 10 experiences on the ground.
• 24:52
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, I don't think people realize how much investment in time and money that goes into getting these trips right and experimentation.
• 24:59
  Pie Aerts: You know, you're not going to get it right first time in the You don't want to know how many trips uh I tried, but never worked.
• 25:05
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:06
  Matt Jacob: Tell me, you touched upon it because this is this really interesting part of it for me.
• 25:11
  Matt Jacob: And we talked about it in Ladakh and talk about it all the time with with many photographers, especially those that travel and try and kind of insert themselves, or I should say, observe or you know, temporarily integrate with unique cultures, unique places that aren't necessarily overrun with tourists.
• 25:29
  Matt Jacob: How do you sit with the I know it's ongoing for you, but how do you feel about it now?
• 25:33
  Matt Jacob: How do you sit with this kind of moral tension after being doing it for so many years and these ethical responsibilities of that you have when you're leading these groups?
• 25:42
  Matt Jacob: You know, take Ladakh, for example, probably probably a really good thing, uh good example, being essentially a tourist in these places and and with this kind of overt intention of taking something from it, even though that's not our intention.
• 25:58
  Matt Jacob: So this kind of like really deep uh introspection as to what the intention is for these people going on these expeditions, as well as yourself leading these groups, throw in context and the respect and the the kind of the ethics and dignity that you've got to kind of pile into all of these experiences.
• 26:15
  Matt Jacob: Give us just tell us more about that and the challenges that that arise on these trips and and your opinion on how they should be handled.
• 26:23
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, that's a big question.
• 26:24
  Pie Aerts: Uh, I'm sure we could fill an entire podcast with the answer.
• 26:27
  Pie Aerts: Um, see, I think in the first place, uh, it is important to acknowledge that uh travel is always exploitative.
• 26:38
  Pie Aerts: Uh even though it might be argued by people within the industry that it's not.
• 26:44
  Pie Aerts: Uh I I dare to say that in the current world we live in, with uh differences between cultures being so big in terms of income, in terms of exposure, but with an online world connecting more and more, I think travel is always exploitative.
• 27:04
  Pie Aerts: And I think photography also historically has been a tool of oppression, uh, in a way that it's really really hard to pick a well to pick an approach if you go into places uh that are very foreign to where you're from.
• 27:24
  Pie Aerts: So I think the the way to go there is uh to be to dare to be vulnerable.
• 27:31
  Pie Aerts: And sometimes if people ask me this question, I I the only answer I can really give is that uh I'm doing everything within my possibility to not stereotype the environments I work with, but to challenge those stereotypes and to to uh well to always be aware of your privileged position of carrying a camera and traveling the world.
• 27:57
  Pie Aerts: I think that's with that awareness, hopefully comes also a um an understanding that you have to give back in one way or another.
• 28:07
  Pie Aerts: And there's not there's not a shortcut or a guidebook for doing that, right?
• 28:11
  Pie Aerts: It has to come from the heart, I think.
• 28:14
  Pie Aerts: But if it comes from the right place, I think uh travel can be much less exploitative than it usually is.
• 28:22
  Pie Aerts: And with Ladakh as an example, uh, of course you're never doing it good, and you're always there will always be people shouting from the sidelines.
• 28:30
  Pie Aerts: But what I see is that um not not engaging in in these types of adventures is also creating a form of paralysis that is also not the answer to how you deal with these big cultural differences.
• 28:45
  Pie Aerts: So I think it all starts with with that daring to be vulnerable.
• 28:49
  Pie Aerts: And I've learned that in in those five, six years of traveling to Ladakh, I mean, the the the certainly the trips in the beginning had a very different ethos than the trips now.
• 29:01
  Pie Aerts: So I'm also still learning and the relationships become deeper and more meaningful.
• 29:06
  Pie Aerts: But in the end of the day, you're still a group of eight people that come from a very privileged background, that travel to these culturally fragile places that are not necessarily waiting for you to arrive.
• 29:19
  Pie Aerts: But still, if you come to come to seek to understand rather than to stereotype, I think that is a very important thing to mention.
• 29:28
  Pie Aerts: And um, if you come to actually connect on a human level with the people you meet, and you always prioritize the encounter over anything else, you sit with those people, you give them your devoted attention, you open yourself up, and it's not necessarily.
• 29:45
  Pie Aerts: I mean, the one thing that goes wrong is very, very much people unintentionally, without any intention to do any harm, they feel that they have to come and give people a voice or help people to give them opportunity, or uh, and that is of course a very dangerous thing.
• 30:03
  Pie Aerts: So I'm I'm constantly trying to stay away from the from that idea on these trips.
• 30:08
  Pie Aerts: Uh, I hope that makes sense.
• 30:10
  Matt Jacob: But yeah, I think people people can, as especially us privileged people that can afford these types of trips and these locations, it's easy for us to um put not punch down, but maybe part of us look down and feel like these people need our help.
• 30:26
  Matt Jacob: And you know, there's there's a hubris in that that is kind of cringy.
• 30:30
  Matt Jacob: But um I I yeah, I could be the first person to say there's there's a there's been a little bit of that for me.
• 30:35
  Matt Jacob: But I think the more you travel, the more travel responsibly with people like you and and well-organized trips like this who not just guide but also educate.
• 30:44
  Matt Jacob: Um, you know, travel is, I still believe travel is the best educator when it's done responsibly.
• 30:50
  Pie Aerts: And well, if I think you should question yourself, why do you travel in the first place?
• 30:54
  Pie Aerts: Yeah.
• 30:54
  Pie Aerts: And and why do you want to tell a certain story?
• 30:56
  Pie Aerts: Is it to make yourself feel better about yourself?
• 30:59
  Pie Aerts: And and therefore are you consequently using that privilege to perpetuate stereotypes?
• 31:06
  Pie Aerts: I think it really comes down to that.
• 31:07
  Pie Aerts: Or is it the opposite?
• 31:09
  Pie Aerts: So, yeah, it's uh yeah, it's there's not really one answer to this question.
• 31:13
  Pie Aerts: It's an ongoing debate, and I always indicate that I don't really have the answers myself.
• 31:18
  Pie Aerts: I'm just doing it from good intention.
• 31:20
  Matt Jacob: I I think you touched upon something really, really important there.
• 31:23
  Matt Jacob: And I've talked about, I talk about this a lot, and I know you talk about this a lot, certainly in your your photography projects, but those unanswered questions are okay to be left unanswered.
• 31:33
  Matt Jacob: Especially the deeper ones that just make you think because you always come back to them and make you think even more.
• 31:38
  Matt Jacob: And that drives curiosity, that drives introspection, that drives evolution.
• 31:44
  Matt Jacob: And that's important as artists and as human beings.
• 31:47
  Matt Jacob: That's where opportunities and ideas and creation comes from.
• 31:50
  Matt Jacob: So I think you know, we're we're so quick me doing a podcast.
• 31:54
  Matt Jacob: I don't expect people to answer questions all the time, but it's good to raise a question maybe with another question and you know, like you just did, fire it back at fire it back at the person and make them think, well, why do you do that in the first place?
• 32:07
  Matt Jacob: There's no necessarily right or wrong.
• 32:08
  Matt Jacob: But if you know about that and you know about yourself a little bit more, you can either make better decisions or be more responsible with those decisions.
• 32:16
  Matt Jacob: And I think that's something that uh either people think we overthink too much or it gets overlooked.
• 32:22
  Matt Jacob: So um yeah, thank you.
• 32:24
  Pie Aerts: I I constantly keep going back to this beautiful quote by Maya Angelut that that's that says, do the best you can until you know better.
• 32:32
  Pie Aerts: Then when you know better, do better.
• 32:34
  Pie Aerts: And I think that that very much sums it up in a way that uh we should all I think we should all be a little bit more vulnerable when it comes to uh this polarized discussion on things, on many, many things that's happening.
• 32:49
  Pie Aerts: And we all make mistakes and we learn from them and we keep revisiting our decisions over and over again.
• 32:56
  Pie Aerts: And there's not really one way one way or another, but as long as you keep improving, I think that's a lot.
• 33:03
  Matt Jacob: And and uh it's nice to see you develop your voice in a written way as well.
• 33:08
  Matt Jacob: Um, you started Substack, I think uh last year, maybe, maybe not even a year ago.
• 33:13
  Matt Jacob: Um tell tell us why we're not gonna dwell on Substack, of course, but I just thought I'd throw that in there because I think it's it's you know, the written word is as important to you as maybe the the visual word uh as it is to me in terms of books, written books, photo books, um, blogs, newsletters, poetry, whatever it might be.
• 33:33
  Matt Jacob: Tell us why Substack and and how you've been enjoying that and what it what it what you get from it.
• 33:40
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, uh it's been a year now uh that I kind of started to to build an appetite for meaning, more meaningful, deeper dialogue.
• 33:51
  Pie Aerts: Uh I mean we all know what's happening to social media.
• 33:54
  Pie Aerts: It's uh still a miracle that so many people use it while it's in the hands of of absolutely the wrong people.
• 34:00
  Pie Aerts: But yeah, we're kind of addicted to it, I guess, and entire businesses are building it, mine included.
• 34:06
  Pie Aerts: So it's been very hard to build down that presence uh without seeing the whole thing collapse.
• 34:12
  Pie Aerts: So my answer to that has been to start doing Substack.
• 34:16
  Pie Aerts: Um, and of course, we see Substack growing as well, and and some people argue it might, in the end of the day, also end up in those same hands.
• 34:24
  Pie Aerts: No one knows, but at the moment it feels the right platform for me to build a connection with my audience that goes much deeper than an Instagram, Instagram caption or like a three-second swipe on a platform somewhere online.
• 34:37
  Pie Aerts: So um yeah, it it it's uh it's been a journey uh in which and from the start I I promised my audience to ride every two weeks, and then many people around me with some substack experience were warning me, be careful.
• 34:52
  Pie Aerts: So I I kept I uh I mean I kept up with that rhythm for a fair amount of months, uh, then had a little dip because second baby came and we had to rebuild like an entire home.
• 35:05
  Pie Aerts: Uh renovated the place, now I'm picking it up again a couple of months ago.
• 35:09
  Pie Aerts: I I revamped the whole thing, and now I'm actually back to once a week, uh, which is even even even more intense.
• 35:16
  Pie Aerts: But uh it's also coming from uh such an appreciation, not only for the for the audience that interacts with the work, but for just the whole experience of sitting down with a subject, thinking about it, writing about it, uh daring to be vulnerable about certain things you you you question or you that keeps you awake at night.
• 35:40
  Pie Aerts: It's a lot of emotion in that sub stack, it's a lot of feeling.
• 35:43
  Pie Aerts: It's not really me speaking about how to use cameras or how to build a career as a photographer.
• 35:48
  Pie Aerts: It's a lot about well, it's like my inner struggles.
• 35:52
  Pie Aerts: It's like it's essentially like a deep dive into what it means to build a career within this space.
• 35:57
  Pie Aerts: And I'm just trying to be as honest uh as possible, and it seems to be resonating with people.
• 36:03
  Pie Aerts: The feedback is incredible.
• 36:04
  Pie Aerts: So yeah, I'm unpacking my new book there at the moment.
• 36:07
  Pie Aerts: I'm talking about, well, pretty much anything that keeps me busy uh in in in this little life of telling stories.
• 36:15
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, it's uh I really enjoy doing doing Substack as well.
• 36:19
  Matt Jacob: I I mean I I don't get the audience you do, but I I would do it if zero people I I do do it.
• 36:24
  Matt Jacob: I you know, I journal a lot and no one sees that.
• 36:27
  Matt Jacob: But I there's an act, there's a there's this pleasure in writing, like you said, sitting down and formulating ideas onto onto paper that is is extremely enjoyable and purposeful.
• 36:39
  Pie Aerts: Well, so let's I mean let's put it this way.
• 36:41
  Pie Aerts: So for me, the absolute highlight of every Substack is I translate it to Dutch and I send it to my mom.
• 36:48
  Matt Jacob: Yeah.
• 36:49
  Pie Aerts: Right?
• 36:49
  Pie Aerts: So I mean, we don't get to speak each other uh that deeply on about my work all the time.
• 36:55
  Pie Aerts: Uh they live far away from where I live.
• 36:58
  Pie Aerts: So that itself is already for me enough reasons.
• 37:00
  Pie Aerts: So I think that's how you should look at it.
• 37:02
  Pie Aerts: So it's not about audience size.
• 37:04
  Pie Aerts: Uh as you rightly say, if 10 people would be writing it, I would keep writing the same stuff.
• 37:10
  Pie Aerts: Because in the end of the day, and this is how I started to look at my career in general, it is about those 10 people that are willing to engage with your work much more than it is about 100,000 people that just swipe, swipe you away and just move on to the next person.
• 37:24
  Matt Jacob: Yeah.
• 37:25
  Matt Jacob: I don't swipe you away, P.
• 37:27
  Matt Jacob: I know you don't.
• 37:29
  Matt Jacob: Um, I love, I love, I love watching your journey.
• 37:33
  Matt Jacob: And I I think that's that's actually this good point to to mention because you've managed to build.
• 37:39
  Matt Jacob: We're not going to talk about social media, but you've managed to build a very engaged and loyal following.
• 37:43
  Matt Jacob: And and for for the engagement that I see on on your Instagram or Substack or wherever it might be, there's certainly, you know, you have a you have a great group of followers, audience, you know, people that just want to follow your journey.
• 37:57
  Matt Jacob: And I think I spoke to Wesley, um, who I know is one of your friends uh a few weeks ago on the pod as well, who and we I don't know how he does it, but he does his Substack that's very successful every week without fail.
• 38:09
  Matt Jacob: Um and uh he's he's managed to also uh you know really really build this uh wonderfully loyal following.
• 38:19
  Matt Jacob: But there's there's something in the process, which he talks about all the time.
• 38:23
  Matt Jacob: I mean, a substack's called process.
• 38:25
  Matt Jacob: He he feels that people just enjoy that connection of of going along someone's journey with them.
• 38:31
  Matt Jacob: Um and I think you know, your your testament to that.
• 38:34
  Matt Jacob: I think that's what why people resonate with with you so much.
• 38:37
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, I think I mean uh Wesley's a dear friend.
• 38:40
  Pie Aerts: He's he's helping me for a year and a half now with the realization of my next book as well.
• 38:45
  Pie Aerts: So we've talked a lot about Substack and the role of it.
• 38:47
  Pie Aerts: But I think it's just prioritizing Substack over anything else, uh consistency, I think is important.
• 38:54
  Pie Aerts: He's doing it every single week now for how many editions?
• 38:57
  Pie Aerts: 240 or something along those lines, which is a crazy.
• 39:02
  Pie Aerts: I don't know a single other person with that commitment.
• 39:04
  Pie Aerts: So it is about intention, it is about connection, and above anything, it's about community.
• 39:09
  Pie Aerts: All these like uh hollow terms, but they they they they certainly play a role in in building your presence on an app like Substack.
• 39:18
  Pie Aerts: I mean, in photography in general, community is more for me more important than anything else.
• 39:23
  Pie Aerts: It's the funding engine between all my charity work, it's the funding engine between all my expeditions.
• 39:28
  Pie Aerts: Now I'm launching a book within that same community.
• 39:31
  Pie Aerts: I hope they will all understand it resonates with them.
• 39:34
  Pie Aerts: It's like they are so important in everything I do.
• 39:37
  Pie Aerts: It's not only about uh them investing into your brand, but it's all people that become ambassadors for what you stand for.
• 39:45
  Pie Aerts: So yeah, for me, community is more important than anything else.
• 39:50
  Pie Aerts: And and regardless of size, that is very important to mention.
• 39:54
  Pie Aerts: So I'm I'm super happy with uh with how it all evolved.
• 39:59
  Pie Aerts: I could never have wished for that couple of years back for so many people to be so deeply engaging with the work.
• 40:05
  Pie Aerts: So super grateful for that.
• 40:07
  Matt Jacob: Well, yeah, it's well deserved.
• 40:08
  Matt Jacob: But how do you you know throw in Substack, throw in expeditions, throw in social media?
• 40:15
  Matt Jacob: Um how does all of this come into kind of how you uh avoid trying to preach or teach?
• 40:23
  Matt Jacob: Because you, you know, you have you for me, you seem to be this this split responsibility artist.
• 40:29
  Matt Jacob: You feel like you really want people to care, and we'll talk about Prince for Wildlife in a minute.
• 40:34
  Matt Jacob: You really want people to care, but you also don't want to tell it's you don't feel as your right to tell people what to care about or how to do it.
• 40:41
  Matt Jacob: And there's always kind of like this emotional outsourcing with photography, I feel it's like they follow you or they like a post or they can't post, they feel like they've done something, you know, especially if it's something like Prince for Wildlife where you you're promoting raising money, and you've been very successful with it, so I can't fault that.
• 40:57
  Matt Jacob: But there is there must be some kind of frustration or desire for you to really like pick people up by their heels and just say, Why don't you fucking give a shit about some of this stuff?
• 41:08
  Matt Jacob: Do you feel does that really get to you sometimes, or do you just kind of stay in your corner, do your thing, and hope that and just kind of hope that people do care and sit up and and recognize?
• 41:18
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, that's uh that's a good question.
• 41:20
  Pie Aerts: I think uh my approach is becoming twofold, more twofold.
• 41:25
  Pie Aerts: I've been so I got to question like a while back, a couple of years back, whether I'm more of an artist or an activist.
• 41:31
  Pie Aerts: And uh uh I think I'm becoming I'm re-becoming an artist more now.
• 41:38
  Pie Aerts: I've been an activist for many, many years.
• 41:41
  Pie Aerts: Um and it's kind of shocking to me that that impact uh and climate and and and whatnot is kind of completely disappeared from any political agenda in the last two to three years.
• 41:54
  Pie Aerts: So with that, um I also kind of lost the appetite to continue fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting against it.
• 42:01
  Pie Aerts: So uh, I mean, I'm certainly an advocate for for impact.
• 42:07
  Pie Aerts: Uh I'm I'm a sucker for for anything that comes back to uh helping people in need or making a difference through my work.
• 42:18
  Pie Aerts: But it's it's it's um it's a tough fight uh to keep to try and and and and keep convincing people to to contribute to something bigger than than than than what it seems, if that makes sense.
• 42:34
  Pie Aerts: I mean, one of the reasons I I I set up Prince for Wildlife is because I wanted to use the communal power of many people believing in the same thing, and that kind of paid off.
• 42:45
  Pie Aerts: Um we raised a lot of money for for charity, but it's it's it can be very exhausting in a way that um uh it I mean it the the mission is fulfilling.
• 42:58
  Pie Aerts: So if you go to bed at the end of the day uh knowing that you you you are doing anything in your ability to make a difference, that there's nothing really that beats that feeling, to be honest.
• 43:10
  Pie Aerts: And it might sound untrue, but that feeling is even harder to beat with actually making money yourself, for me at least, right?
• 43:20
  Pie Aerts: But I came to a crossroads when when when when my family extended and became a dad, that I just had to re-look at that model, unfortunately.
• 43:29
  Pie Aerts: Uh, so I still feel that responsibility.
• 43:32
  Pie Aerts: I think when it comes to uh to your vision and your mission as a photographer, the only thing that really matters is that you believe in it and in this like peer pressure world, um I think kids kind of grew up these days believing that anybody else has to care about it.
• 43:54
  Pie Aerts: So you you you tell that story because the world needs it, or there there's pressure from Friends and social pressure, there's pressure, press pressure from industries, there's social media pressure.
• 44:04
  Pie Aerts: There's so much pressure everywhere.
• 44:06
  Pie Aerts: But the only thing that really matters is that you question your own values and beliefs.
• 44:11
  Pie Aerts: And if you believe in your own story, it will be much easier to convince anybody else to believe in the same thing.
• 44:19
  Pie Aerts: And what I see happening a lot is just people doing the opposite, like questioning not necessarily what they care about, or they do question it, but superficially.
• 44:29
  Pie Aerts: But I've been on this journey now for about five, six years, deeply finding out what is it that I care about.
• 44:36
  Pie Aerts: And I keep going back to my desire to bring people together, to build motion and movement through community.
• 44:45
  Pie Aerts: And uh that combined, I think, with a I've been building that one page, a document in which I clearly define my personal values and belief in life, not necessarily as a photographer.
• 44:58
  Pie Aerts: And those two elements combined has been a driving force behind me building Prince for Wildlife and keep doing it over the years, even though it is sometimes fing hard, uh, in a world that is kind of forgetting about the value of of being there for places in need.
• 45:18
  Pie Aerts: So yeah, it's uh I mean I I I will never give up in that regard, but um it's becoming increasingly difficult in a world and we started during COVID in 2020 2020, and that momentum is certainly gone.
• 45:34
  Pie Aerts: Uh, we're living in a completely different world now, so it's harder to convince people to actually care about natural resources and wildlife and people that depend on it.
• 45:44
  Pie Aerts: But it's not like I'm giving up.
• 45:46
  Pie Aerts: It's so deeply inside my personal beliefs that I will forever keep doing this.
• 45:53
  Matt Jacob: To know thyself is so important.
• 45:55
  Matt Jacob: You you talked about it there, it's it's kind of really taking you half a decade to kind of really know and and with clarity what you actually care about.
• 46:04
  Matt Jacob: And I feel like talking to so many, you know, aspiring photographers or just human beings, a lot of them are just so uh confused and overwhelmed and saturated with information or ideas or you know, like you said, pressures, social pressures, family pressures, commercial pressures, whatever it might be.
• 46:25
  Matt Jacob: But they just they just kind of forget who they are.
• 46:29
  Matt Jacob: And I think that's certainly as photography.
• 46:30
  Matt Jacob: We'll bring this back to photography.
• 46:32
  Matt Jacob: It's it's it's the most important thing to create art that not only resonates with yourself, but means something to other people that you can put out there and can have an impact.
• 46:43
  Matt Jacob: Um you've got to really know yourself and not do it for something you think might be a reason or think someone else might need you to do it for a specific reason.
• 46:55
  Matt Jacob: It's so important, but it's really, really difficult to do.
• 46:57
  Matt Jacob: It takes a lot of experimentation, a lot of introspection.
• 47:01
  Matt Jacob: So I think that was something that you you just said that I think is is really important.
• 47:06
  Pie Aerts: But well, well, listen, I I I wouldn't I wouldn't want to be that 21-year-old kid now moving into photography.
• 47:13
  Matt Jacob: Yeah.
• 47:13
  Pie Aerts: Right?
• 47:14
  Pie Aerts: It's um sometimes I wake up Yeah, well, I'm sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night like perhaps looking like someone who's very established and who knows it all and who's in line with what whatever he believes in.
• 47:28
  Matt Jacob: You don't know like that.
• 47:29
  Pie Aerts: I tell I tell you, I don't.
• 47:31
  Pie Aerts: You know, I I I sometimes I feel I do, but I think self-doubt is the one thing you need to embrace as an artist.
• 47:40
  Matt Jacob: Yeah.
• 47:40
  Pie Aerts: And we should all embrace that more and talk about it more.
• 47:43
  Pie Aerts: And as much as we should talk more about vulnerability.
• 47:47
  Pie Aerts: Uh so I constantly try to fire up that conversation.
• 47:51
  Pie Aerts: I think that is one of the the uh the reasons why perhaps my writing on Substack resonates to people, because we're all going through the same, Matt.
• 48:00
  Pie Aerts: And um if we would speak about it more, it would be easier for everyone.
• 48:04
  Pie Aerts: And I mean people across the spectrum.
• 48:07
  Pie Aerts: I'm not only talking about extrovert people who are easy and sharing their emotions.
• 48:12
  Pie Aerts: We should all talk about it more.
• 48:14
  Pie Aerts: Also introvert people, and we should foster conversation more.
• 48:17
  Pie Aerts: That is about sharing this human experience that we are all dealing and battling with the same things.
• 48:25
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, and even more so now with such uncertainty of uh newsfeeds, social media, polar polarization of society, whatever came first, chicken and egg.
• 48:35
  Matt Jacob: But we the we were talking about this in my book club at the weekend.
• 48:39
  Matt Jacob: So many people get get um, you know, just daunted by by social media.
• 48:46
  Matt Jacob: And they think they look at social media and think, the people that post on there, they've got their shit together.
• 48:51
  Matt Jacob: You know, they're like, oh, they I've got I've I've nailed it, you know, because they're posting only their best images, whatever it might be.
• 48:57
  Matt Jacob: It's a it's a complete um mirage.
• 49:00
  Matt Jacob: It's it's so not true.
• 49:02
  Matt Jacob: We're we're all struggling with this.
• 49:04
  Matt Jacob: And you know, I was I was reading um literally every guest I've had on the podcast is says the same thing.
• 49:10
  Matt Jacob: I read so much about so-called established photographers and artists, even even posthumously, the people that lived a hundred years ago that are now considered some of the best artists ever to have lived, none of them really felt they knew what they were doing or were certain about having a level of success or established presence in that world.
• 49:30
  Matt Jacob: Alex Soth just brought out I I watched a video of his, he's been silent for a year, but I watched a video of his the other day, and it was just 30 minutes of uncertainty.
• 49:40
  Matt Jacob: And you would think that this guy has done everything in the in the photography world.
• 49:44
  Matt Jacob: Um so yeah, we're all human at the end of the day, and it's just getting more and more difficult for us to really kind of come together for a start, but really understand that you know no one's got their shit together, and that's okay.
• 49:56
  Matt Jacob: That's part of the beauty of life.
• 49:57
  Matt Jacob: We're all figuring it out.
• 49:58
  Matt Jacob: And I think you're right in saying that people to get people together to kind of create a bigger impact than just us as individuals trying in our own little bubbles is is extremely important.
• 50:10
  Pie Aerts: Um yeah.
• 50:11
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, and and so uh trying to create a space within my work to for people to feel accompanied in their you in that human loneliness and in that like human uncertainty, that kind of over time became something I keep going back to.
• 50:27
  Pie Aerts: And it's something that in the future will play a very big role uh in in the type of work I do, in the stories I work on.
• 50:35
  Pie Aerts: Uh, but in all honesty, sometimes I'm also just having this like brain fart that says, let's just stop and do something that gives me more stability and that gives me perhaps less happiness.
• 50:48
  Pie Aerts: But so we all go through this, you know?
• 50:50
  Pie Aerts: Uh it is one big question mark.
• 50:52
  Pie Aerts: And so whether it's AI or or or politics or it's all do you use uh AI for at the moment?
• 51:00
  Matt Jacob: Just out of interest.
• 51:02
  Pie Aerts: But giga giga giga pixel pixeling my files now.
• 51:05
  Pie Aerts: Well, so uh I use chat GPT.
• 51:10
  Pie Aerts: I've I used I uh I use ChatGPT a lot for ID generation in terms of like uh I give you a good example.
• 51:19
  Pie Aerts: So um uh and I'm just open about this.
• 51:22
  Pie Aerts: I went to Chile for the last final production run of my book, and I found it incredibly useful to just have long conversations with with uh ChatGPT in contextualizing, for instance, how to photograph um loss of identity in a tree.
• 51:40
  Pie Aerts: Just random, but just a stupid example.
• 51:44
  Pie Aerts: And I've been going through all the social layers of my upcoming book.
• 51:49
  Pie Aerts: And for each social layer, I've been going through this conversation with ChatGPT and they've defining how you could potentially photograph a certain subject layer in a certain scene just to brainstorm ideas.
• 52:03
  Pie Aerts: Whether or not has it has led to images that will make it into the book, I don't know, because you still have to go out into the field and do the work.
• 52:12
  Pie Aerts: Uh but it's I think it is an incredible tool for a generation of uh visual concepts.
• 52:19
  Pie Aerts: And um it's essentially like a almost like a conversation with yourself through talking to your computer because you find out about the meaning of the work in a different way.
• 52:29
  Pie Aerts: So not everything is bad about it, uh uh aside from, of course, like generative AI when it comes to visual assists, something that just literally makes my hair stand up.
• 52:42
  Pie Aerts: Uh makes me angry on many levels.
• 52:45
  Pie Aerts: But I think it also creates, I mean, I honestly think the currency of the future will be authenticity and reality.
• 52:51
  Pie Aerts: I don't see any world in which humans would not want more reality.
• 52:56
  Pie Aerts: So I think it's a as much as it is a threat, it is at equal measurements an incredible opportunity within the industry to all reconsider your true authenticity within the work you do and whether or not that is real or whether it's made up.
• 53:13
  Pie Aerts: And and and I can safely say that um from a personal perspective, anything I see that is fake, and I know we get into a world where you can't distinguish anymore, but I think there will forever be an eye, a human eye, for real for real storytelling.
• 53:32
  Pie Aerts: So as much as that keeps me awake at night, it somehow gives me some form of comfort that less people will be inclined in to invest in reality, but those people will probably invest much more into it.
• 53:45
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, I I mean we're all we're already seeing the start, the the conception of that.
• 53:51
  Matt Jacob: I think even with people I I chat to on Instagram, they they're worried that I'm an AI bot.
• 53:59
  Matt Jacob: Right.
• 54:00
  Matt Jacob: So there's there's now there's an immediate well.
• 54:02
  Matt Jacob: If you're an AI bot, then obviously and I'm the same.
• 54:04
  Matt Jacob: Like, well, I don't want to talk to you.
• 54:06
  Matt Jacob: Any customer cares.
• 54:07
  Matt Jacob: Like if I know that's an hour, no, speak to a human.
• 54:10
  Matt Jacob: And I know that's different, but certainly on a social aspect, if if I know I'm connecting with a human, there's it's just a completely different playing field.
• 54:19
  Matt Jacob: And and the same with photography.
• 54:22
  Matt Jacob: I think AI art, visual art will have its place and already does, but it'll be separate.
• 54:27
  Matt Jacob: And I I totally agree with you.
• 54:28
  Matt Jacob: I think the currency of the future is authenticity, but whether that's in a written form or uh literal form or visual form, whatever it might be, people will be starving for that.
• 54:39
  Matt Jacob: And um I think it's gonna make photography more valuable.
• 54:42
  Matt Jacob: Uh that doesn't mean to say that it's easier for us right now, but uh yeah, I I have faith.
• 54:48
  Matt Jacob: Um hopefully that's well placed.
• 54:50
  Matt Jacob: But t tell me, let's let's let's go into um what we really want to talk about, which is you know, you you mentioned it, your project down in Chile.
• 54:59
  Matt Jacob: This has been uh, you know, I heard about this when we first met, and you've been working on it for years and years.
• 55:05
  Matt Jacob: But I'll let you tell the audience uh everything you can about this project that you're willing to share, um and and give us some insights as to to what is because it's very exciting.
• 55:15
  Matt Jacob: I'm super keen to to see the book eventually, but tell us tell us as much as you can about it.
• 55:21
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:22
  Pie Aerts: Well, so um yeah, I first got to the region.
• 55:28
  Pie Aerts: The region is Magallanas, uh, which is in the furthest southern region of Chile and Patagonia.
• 55:36
  Pie Aerts: So we're looking at uh almost falling off the continent.
• 55:39
  Pie Aerts: It's an area around a city called Puerto Natales for the people that are listening listening that have been to that area.
• 55:46
  Pie Aerts: Uh it's a region I first got to in 2018, not really looking for a project, pretty clueless about photography in general.
• 55:54
  Pie Aerts: Uh, on a road trip, eight months with my girlfriend, now wife.
• 56:00
  Pie Aerts: Uh, not really having a plan, but somehow along that road of driving down south, I was kind of mesmerized by a constantly returning lone stoic figure that then I learned Scarlet Gaucho.
• 56:17
  Pie Aerts: Um later I obviously learned much more about gaucho's being a continent-wide phenomenon, like America-wide, actually.
• 56:27
  Pie Aerts: It's essentially like I wouldn't say cowboys, but it's it's it's like it's it's uh a cultural phenomenon that is existing in many, many countries across the Americas.
• 56:39
  Pie Aerts: But in the in the region I was I was visiting by then, uh they are referred to as puesteros, uh, which means uh I would say outpost men.
• 56:51
  Pie Aerts: There's not really an English translation for it.
• 56:53
  Pie Aerts: Essentially, they're they're being hired.
• 56:56
  Pie Aerts: They're men that are being hired by ranch owners to look after the cattle and the sheep on big estancias, on big ranches that are mostly abandoned.
• 57:07
  Pie Aerts: Uh, because the families that own those ranches they move to the cities, but they still keep the cattle.
• 57:12
  Pie Aerts: Uh and they hire gentlemen to look after the land and after the cattle.
• 57:18
  Pie Aerts: And uh historically, that culture has been brought into the continent uh by a big colonial wave in the late 1800s.
• 57:28
  Pie Aerts: Uh so uh they've been a very integral part of wiping out the entire indigenous history of Patagonia.
• 57:37
  Pie Aerts: As the sheep came, they there was a demand for, I mean, sheep and horses have been brought historically by by settlers.
• 57:46
  Pie Aerts: And when the sheep came, they needed people to look after the sheep.
• 57:50
  Pie Aerts: So it is actually existing within the coming of the set the early settlers in in the Patagonian region.
• 57:56
  Pie Aerts: So um that is a little history on on the on Puesteros.
• 58:01
  Pie Aerts: I mean, it's very, very brief.
• 58:02
  Pie Aerts: But I was kind of crashed by um by that constantly returning figure along the road, and I felt this strong desire to kind of learn about who are these guys, but no clue where to start.
• 58:16
  Pie Aerts: So did a bit of research online after coming home from that first trip in 2018.
• 58:21
  Pie Aerts: And then I bumped into the work of uh Matthias Bolla, who's a Chilean Australian film director, and who back in the day was doing a nine-minute-long feature film on the very same culture, on the very same gentleman.
• 58:35
  Pie Aerts: Uh, that film called Campesinos and Vimeo, for people who want to look it up.
• 58:39
  Pie Aerts: And uh it seemed that we both had an interest in um in a similar, similar type of story.
• 58:47
  Pie Aerts: Uh, but I was kind of clueless on how to tackle doing more work in that region and didn't really have the network.
• 58:54
  Pie Aerts: So we started chatting in 2019 into 2020.
• 58:57
  Pie Aerts: Then we were planning to go back for the first time for like a joint production, but then COVID happened, uh, which was sad because it was all set up and I was kind of ready to dive deeper into the story, but but but it also proved to be an opportunity in which we started to work on a script for a longer film, uh, a longer feature film.
• 59:18
  Pie Aerts: And while brainstorming how that film should play out, we started both started to learn more about the about the project in a way that uh poetry was was a way for me to to to dive deeper into the subject matter.
• 59:34
  Pie Aerts: Um I I read many different, I mean translated many different poems being written by poets in the region.
• 59:42
  Pie Aerts: Um one of those poets also at a much later stage starts is now playing a role in contextualizing the work.
• 59:49
  Pie Aerts: Um uh but yeah, poetry for me was a way to really learn about those gouchos and and where they come from and what what what what goes on in their heads uh in one way or another.
• 1:00:00
  Pie Aerts: So then in 2021, we went back for the first time, and that was the start of a five-year-long uh uh, I'd say, production period in which we went back a multitude of times in all different seasons, uh uh in a very small crew of three people, uh Matthias being a film director, Miller being cinematographer, and myself as a photographer, with the aim to dive deeper into the lifestyle of uh uh of that Puestero culture.
• 1:00:31
  Pie Aerts: So we step one was to define uh several individuals, and that's been one of the hardest parts in the beginning, because none of them are actually waiting to be documented.
• 1:00:42
  Pie Aerts: It's uh it's a culture that that historically is not running towards a camera, but rather away from it.
• 1:00:49
  Pie Aerts: So it's been taking the first two years of the project was mostly doing that, has uh been relationship building, it's a lot of investing, um actually finding those guys.
• 1:01:01
  Pie Aerts: And many of them live in extremely remote places, mostly alone.
• 1:01:04
  Pie Aerts: Some live with work with workmates.
• 1:01:07
  Pie Aerts: Um, she has across the entire region, but in a one way or another, we found our way in.
• 1:01:13
  Pie Aerts: And um at first instance, it felt like I was doing a story on um on the duality of isolation, which is partly it's still about that.
• 1:01:21
  Pie Aerts: I mean, on the one hand, you can see these guys um battling with the mental consequences of living an entire life in isolation.
• 1:01:32
  Pie Aerts: Uh, one of the most beautiful things ever said about this culture um is in order to come to this land, you need a past to forget.
• 1:01:41
  Pie Aerts: And I learned over time that all of these guys we were spending time with, they were more or less essentially all like walking away from something, whether that is something very severe that shaped them in their child, in their childhood, a bit more superficial subject matter, but they were kind of walking away from something, ending up in this southern region, all looking for income, looking for money, looking for opportunity.
• 1:02:04
  Pie Aerts: And they somehow got stuck in that lifestyle, starting to see themselves as a perpetual victim of the circumstances, but at the same time, they were also very aware of perhaps uh featuring as a last generation of a disappearing cultural phenomenon that is the posteric culture.
• 1:02:24
  Pie Aerts: So in in the beginning of the story, I was I was aiming on finding um uh a visual representation of that duality of loneliness.
• 1:02:35
  Pie Aerts: So, on the one hand, battling with the mental consequences, there's relatively high suicide rates, there is very high alcoholism within the communities.
• 1:02:44
  Pie Aerts: Uh, there is a lot of like mental hardship that comes with living a life alone.
• 1:02:50
  Pie Aerts: But at the same time, I could see these sit these guys also carry that degradation of their culture and the awareness of featuring perhaps as the last generation in this lifestyle with a form of resilience and dignity and pride that I never saw anywhere else before.
• 1:03:06
  Pie Aerts: So I came to the to the region wanting to do a story about the two-sided relationship with isolation.
• 1:03:12
  Pie Aerts: But over time, and as these relationships deepened, and by spending some more time with them somewhere in the middle of the project, we for the first time got invited to stay over in their little puestos.
• 1:03:23
  Pie Aerts: So they mostly live, they're called puesteros because they live in puestos.
• 1:03:26
  Pie Aerts: Puestos are like outposts in the corner of the land.
• 1:03:29
  Pie Aerts: Uh historically, this culture has been abused and neglected for years.
• 1:03:34
  Pie Aerts: Uh, they they they are not treated very well.
• 1:03:37
  Pie Aerts: Uh they are underpaid, they're under underappreciated.
• 1:03:40
  Pie Aerts: So they kind of hid away in the corner of the land looking after the cattle.
• 1:03:44
  Pie Aerts: So uh we we got invited in the middle of the project, somewhere in 23, to stay over in that first puesto, and that kind of changed the entire dynamic of the making of the work, and it pushed it into a complete different direction, still with a little focus on on that that that loneliness that is so prevalent in the area, but more making me aware that it might be a story that is about aging and about endurance and survival.
• 1:04:11
  Pie Aerts: Uh, so that was a big turning point in the making of the work.
• 1:04:16
  Pie Aerts: And now, after, I mean, two more years down the line, I can see that uh the entire narrative around aging is becoming the the most obvious layer in the work.
• 1:04:29
  Pie Aerts: I hope so.
• 1:04:30
  Pie Aerts: When when when people see the book.
• 1:04:32
  Matt Jacob: Fascinating.
• 1:04:33
  Matt Jacob: So so how who pays who owns the land?
• 1:04:37
  Matt Jacob: They don't own the land, they don't own the cattle, they're just working for uh some some guy that owns it, or is it government land, or what's the structure?
• 1:04:47
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, so so one line one one one powerful line that keeps coming back in many of these interviews with it with these guys is that they all say something along the lines of what a shame it is to come to love this land that isn't that is not mine.
• 1:05:01
  Pie Aerts: What a shame it is to come to love the land that will never be mine.
• 1:05:05
  Pie Aerts: So none of these guys owns any of the land.
• 1:05:08
  Pie Aerts: Uh so that brings me to another layer in the story, which is about ownership uh and and living on a land that kind of you feel so connected to, but that has absolutely no ownership, any form of ownership.
• 1:05:19
  Pie Aerts: So they are being uh employed by people that own the land.
• 1:05:24
  Pie Aerts: Uh let's not go too deep into land ownership, that's a different discussion, but uh, let's keep it small and and and focus on one or two estancias.
• 1:05:33
  Pie Aerts: So the estancia is owned by a family, the family lives in the city.
• 1:05:37
  Pie Aerts: Uh they still have a small portion of the portion of their business being wool or sheep meat.
• 1:05:44
  Pie Aerts: Uh it's much smaller than it was before because the entire region has been kind of taken over by China.
• 1:05:50
  Pie Aerts: So Patagonia is not like the global uh manufacturer of wool anymore.
• 1:05:55
  Pie Aerts: But every every other family has has still a little portion.
• 1:05:59
  Pie Aerts: They're all moving into tourism more now these days.
• 1:06:03
  Pie Aerts: So there's still the asteria, someone has to look after it.
• 1:06:06
  Pie Aerts: They're hiring a guy, putting him in a little shed in the corner of the land.
• 1:06:10
  Pie Aerts: Every now and then check in with him.
• 1:06:13
  Pie Aerts: And that person is looking after all the possessions, the farm and the animals.
• 1:06:21
  Matt Jacob: So how did you uh for for those people that may be listening or watching and want to kind of do similar experiences, similar photo work?
• 1:06:31
  Matt Jacob: How do you there's one thing saying keep going back and give it time, but how do you approach a culture and a subculture and a, you know, uh a cohort of people that don't want to be photographed or don't want to be filmed and that are quite instinctively um sheltered from that and shy away from it?
• 1:06:53
  Matt Jacob: Was this an intentional process that you wanted to attack, or were you just kind of hopeful each time you went back?
• 1:06:59
  Matt Jacob: And you know, if we could break break in a little bit more, but you you again, there's this kind of tension between wanting to push it for the sake of what you want to get out of it without respecting, you know, their environment and their hospitality, et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:07:13
  Matt Jacob: So tell us a bit about that.
• 1:07:16
  Pie Aerts: Well, when I started, when I came here for the first time and also for the second and the third time, I was not not really having a final form in mind.
• 1:07:24
  Pie Aerts: I uh the first couple of trips, I was aware that I was going back to the same place, obviously, but I was not really doing that with a project ID in mind.
• 1:07:33
  Pie Aerts: So looking back now, that was actually the the phase of the project where I first discovered this might might be a project, right?
• 1:07:42
  Pie Aerts: So so I think it is kind of important.
• 1:07:46
  Pie Aerts: Uh so I'm not I'm not the proof of that, but I think it is important when you do start a project that you do think about a final form in one way or another.
• 1:07:56
  Pie Aerts: So the film and the book started to grow on us, obviously, uh during the making of the project.
• 1:08:03
  Pie Aerts: It's also hard defining the end now.
• 1:08:05
  Pie Aerts: So defining the start in the end and kind of struggling with when exactly, but um, yeah, and and working.
• 1:08:13
  Pie Aerts: Um if I look back now, the first advice I would give to people is if you want to work on a longer form body of work, and this again doesn't uh I mean I'm not in the right position to say that, but this is what I've learned, is it's better to do it close to home and not far away for obvious reasons, but also for the fact that we've the best pictures that I ever took in this project project have been the ones I never took.
• 1:08:43
  Pie Aerts: Because we were not there, right?
• 1:08:46
  Pie Aerts: So many times we were informed about certain events or uh just the sudden turns of events, or uh like whether it's uh it's on an individual level or within the region or within the bigger picture, uh, and we were not able to go, we were not there, we were not even going anytime soon.
• 1:09:05
  Pie Aerts: This project has been heavily depending on external funding.
• 1:09:08
  Pie Aerts: It's entirely self-funded.
• 1:09:10
  Pie Aerts: The productions are expensive.
• 1:09:12
  Pie Aerts: Uh, even though we do work on a very, very low-key level with a small team of three people, it just takes a lot of money to work on this for six years.
• 1:09:21
  Pie Aerts: So, my number one advice would be find a story you care about that is actually close to home.
• 1:09:26
  Pie Aerts: Which also brings me to the point that after doing this book, my focus will have to go to a project closer to home, uh, to just practice what I'm what I'm now preaching.
• 1:09:38
  Pie Aerts: So, that having said, if you do want to uh engage in in telling a story about a place far from home, you you you, especially in a culture that is that has such a language barrier, such a cultural barrier, that is uh historically very stoic and closed, uh, it does come with a certain awareness that it takes time.
• 1:10:03
  Pie Aerts: And I think six years is not a lot of time if you look at what we've achieved and the work that we've realized.
• 1:10:10
  Pie Aerts: And I would love to continue on for another six years, and I actually might.
• 1:10:15
  Pie Aerts: Uh, but it kind of feels like the right moment to bring the book into the world now.
• 1:10:20
  Pie Aerts: But but yeah, you you you kind of again, we're going back to the same uh same thing we discussed before.
• 1:10:26
  Pie Aerts: I think it all comes down to um daring to be vulnerable yourself if you expect other people to do the same.
• 1:10:35
  Pie Aerts: And uh for me, this whole journey has been one of self-discovery from beginning to end.
• 1:10:41
  Pie Aerts: I learned throughout the making of the project that um I mean, I I'm aware that I have a history with anxiety.
• 1:10:50
  Pie Aerts: Uh it's not something I learned through the project, it's been ongoing in my entire life.
• 1:10:55
  Pie Aerts: I've always feared being alone as a kid.
• 1:10:58
  Pie Aerts: Um, I kind of grew up fearing being alone, uh, partly in a physical sense when I was younger, but when growing up also certainly in an existential sense.
• 1:11:08
  Pie Aerts: Uh, the idea that nothing anchors you kind of kind of can kind of thinking.
• 1:11:12
  Pie Aerts: So uh for me, what like in two years into the project, I've discovered for the first time that that was perhaps one of the first things that unconsciously has been drawing me into this culture.
• 1:11:25
  Pie Aerts: The fact that these men are existing within that discomfort and solitude with a ability that is completely gone in the world I come from.
• 1:11:37
  Pie Aerts: Right?
• 1:11:37
  Pie Aerts: So being alone here with all the distractions available kind of makes me not really able to be alone anymore, if that makes sense.
• 1:11:48
  Pie Aerts: So even though I do know that I have this very strong uh history of anxiety around this whole theme, I came to the region to seeing them on the one hand battling with the consequences, and on the other hand, just existing within it.
• 1:12:04
  Pie Aerts: And there's this great quote uh by Peter Matissen that I think is so powerful within that context.
• 1:12:11
  Pie Aerts: It's the great stillness in these landscapes that once made me restless, it seeps into me day by day.
• 1:12:16
  Pie Aerts: And with it, the unreasonable feeling that I have found what I was searching for without ever having discovered what it was.
• 1:12:22
  Pie Aerts: And that is exactly how I felt.
• 1:12:24
  Pie Aerts: I I somehow in the middle of this project, I was like, wow, this is so much more about myself and my personal relationship to the subject layers you work on, because you kind of define these like subject layers into a story.
• 1:12:38
  Pie Aerts: So for me, that was like such a beautiful awakening.
• 1:12:41
  Pie Aerts: And and and I think that was also the moment where I really started to open up to the idea that I needed more time, more visits, more relationship building, more intention to really understand what goes on in the heads of the people I was photographing.
• 1:12:58
  Pie Aerts: And um yeah, that was that was a major turning point and changed the entire course of the project.
• 1:13:05
  Matt Jacob: Were there moments that you questioned whether you had the right to continue the work, or certainly you had doubts about whether you wanted to continue the work?
• 1:13:15
  Pie Aerts: Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 1:13:17
  Pie Aerts: For sure.
• 1:13:18
  Pie Aerts: I mean, you always go back to that one central question, like, how do these people need to benefit?
• 1:13:26
  Pie Aerts: What are what like what why am I doing this?
• 1:13:29
  Pie Aerts: Right?
• 1:13:30
  Matt Jacob: Like, um Well, how how did you get that out uh you know, what's in it for them essentially?
• 1:13:36
  Matt Jacob: How did you were there any breakthrough?
• 1:13:39
  Matt Jacob: I know you can't answer this question really, but I really want to ask, like, how did you break through to them to get them to form a relationship with you and to to accept you essentially?
• 1:13:52
  Pie Aerts: Well, it's through being with them, I discover that that is it, these men are not asking for any pity or a pat on their back or or for any support, right?
• 1:14:02
  Pie Aerts: And they are deserving a lot more admiration and honor uh for a life, a lifestyle lift on the land, taking care of these animals, um uh really serving uh a cost that is so much more bigger than their own.
• 1:14:18
  Pie Aerts: So over time it became uh almost like a desire to pay a tribute to to these men much more than anything else.
• 1:14:29
  Pie Aerts: And we've been kind of um safeguarding the fact that we want them to tell their own story.
• 1:14:36
  Pie Aerts: Uh and it's not us coming from a foreign perspective uh telling their story, which has been the most the hardest part of this project has has been to constantly have the awareness that we want them to tell their own story.
• 1:14:53
  Pie Aerts: It's one of the reasons why we decided for the film to be entire interview-based.
• 1:14:58
  Pie Aerts: Uh so I mean, you wouldn't see a single person sitting in front of a camera speaking to a camera, but all the all the all all of the stories you hear are first-person experiences of them speaking about their own lives.
• 1:15:12
  Pie Aerts: And all the footage you see is essentially them living that life.
• 1:15:18
  Pie Aerts: And I think the book is doing the same.
• 1:15:20
  Pie Aerts: I I at least I hope so.
• 1:15:21
  Pie Aerts: I I hope the book is uh is able to uh to serve as a uh uh a tribute to to them in the first place, but work as a uh for the viewer of the book, hopefully work as a opportunity to feel accompanied within that human loneliness, uh and perhaps consider their own relationship to things like culture, nature, tradition, which are as I said, uh very hollow terms.
• 1:15:54
  Pie Aerts: But uh if the the book for me would be success if the people looking at the book and watching the images kind of feel that they they're they accompanied within being lonely, if that makes sense.
• 1:16:09
  Pie Aerts: So that is one side of the of the impact I hope the book will make.
• 1:16:12
  Pie Aerts: Uh if you go back to the question, are they how are they benefiting?
• 1:16:17
  Pie Aerts: Uh see what the the story is about like uh um 12 different people, all living individual lives, some know each other, some don't.
• 1:16:29
  Pie Aerts: Um carry an awareness that that understands that they might uh play an actor in a story that is about their own life, and they might be forever um solidified as the last generation of this culture.
• 1:16:47
  Pie Aerts: On the other hand, some of these men uh come from a complete different mental place and they don't have that awareness, and that is fine, right?
• 1:16:57
  Pie Aerts: So we've been navigating that a lot whether or not they should all be on the same page uh in in in in understanding that they feature in this story as potentially the last generation of their kind.
• 1:17:10
  Pie Aerts: But um yeah, so of course there's like a portion of the sales goes back to your local charity that does really I mean, there's so many things we haven't even spoken about.
• 1:17:21
  Pie Aerts: But one of the biggest fears of many of these men is is the fact that they fear retiring more than they fear dying.
• 1:17:29
  Pie Aerts: Because none of almost none of them have family, standing family members.
• 1:17:34
  Pie Aerts: None all only one of them has kids.
• 1:17:37
  Pie Aerts: So no one has a social welfare setup or like a backup plan B, like a retirement plan in place or savings or or a uh a regional government that they or a local government that takes care of them.
• 1:17:52
  Pie Aerts: There's a little bit of pension money saved, but it's never enough to sustain 10, 15, 20 years after retiring of living in a living this lifestyle.
• 1:18:01
  Pie Aerts: So in a way, when when their bodies are giving up, which is literally what we've been witnessing with all these men, because they're all in between, I'd say, 55 and 75 years old, some even older.
• 1:18:12
  Pie Aerts: So when their bodies are giving up and they're not able to do this backbreak backbreaking labor anymore, then who is taking care of them?
• 1:18:18
  Pie Aerts: No one, right?
• 1:18:19
  Pie Aerts: So for them, retiring is is scary, scary stuff.
• 1:18:24
  Pie Aerts: So there's an organization, and increasingly there's more efforts being done by local authorities to provide retirement homes for people like like them, and and parts of the of the project will benefit those organizations.
• 1:18:38
  Pie Aerts: So that that's certainly in place, but in the end of the day, uh that's not solving the issue uh for these men, because in the end of the day, they're alone, not being able to sustain the life anymore, and then what?
• 1:18:52
  Pie Aerts: So we've been going through so many events with them in which I can tell you in just mind-blowing anecdotes of navigating that reality with them, not only as documentary filmmakers or photographers, but as friends.
• 1:19:09
  Pie Aerts: Because we've been visiting them for years on end, and you at some point you become friends, and it you become very close, and uh you so that's for me, uh that was the first time I was navigating that internal dialogue of uh am I here as a friend or as an independent documentary filmmaker that is telling a story.
• 1:19:32
  Pie Aerts: And we're literally talking about heavy, heavy meta of like um a story I'll never forget is uh uh one of these uh puesteros uh got a phone call that retirement was there and he could pick up his retirement money.
• 1:19:50
  Pie Aerts: And we we were there when that happened.
• 1:19:52
  Pie Aerts: So we went with him to pick up the money.
• 1:19:55
  Pie Aerts: And him being a heavy alcohol addict, uh, right after picking up the money, we walked into a bar and started drinking it.
• 1:20:03
  Pie Aerts: And knowing his history of heavy drinking and how little uh that actual pension money is, you we were filming inside that bar in town.
• 1:20:15
  Pie Aerts: Uh, you come to a certain point in which you you question yourself, like, what should I do?
• 1:20:20
  Pie Aerts: Like, should we step in?
• 1:20:22
  Pie Aerts: Should we support him?
• 1:20:24
  Pie Aerts: We could see him getting pissed drunk at the bar without having any plan B, you know?
• 1:20:32
  Pie Aerts: So uh that that is a good example of uh uh of of um working on on a story that at some point you start questioning yourself what uh what is the reason I'm doing this.
• 1:20:49
  Pie Aerts: So yeah, it's the first time I've I've worked on such a long-term project.
• 1:20:55
  Pie Aerts: It's the first time I'm I've I've worked on something so uh uh dear to myself, but but yeah, it's uh it's new, kind of new.
• 1:21:06
  Pie Aerts: Uh and it's scary to send this work into the world now because at the first place I don't think there's ever an end to this.
• 1:21:14
  Pie Aerts: I could continue working on it forever.
• 1:21:17
  Pie Aerts: Uh but at the same time, because it is so personal and because it is about people that kind of feel so dear to me and connected, uh you kind of start questioning every single detail of the story.
• 1:21:31
  Pie Aerts: Yeah.
• 1:21:32
  Matt Jacob: Fascinating.
• 1:21:33
  Matt Jacob: And uh yeah, I'm sure we could talk for many uh podcast episodes about those anecdotes and those experiences you had, and that's part of the the beauty of of developing stories like this is those relationships you make, right?
• 1:21:45
  Matt Jacob: And those experiences.
• 1:21:46
  Matt Jacob: But I was more interested in the um the the way you were able to break through initially into you know the how you handled the the not the just the relationship building, but the fact that you were interested in making photographs and making a film.
• 1:22:06
  Matt Jacob: You kind of knew that from 2021 that what you were interested in if this could be a thing photographically, how you then communicate that to essentially at the time, the subjects of that the the the the body of work that you're hoping to make without kind of being able to offer anything in return.
• 1:22:26
  Matt Jacob: There's there's it sounds transactional, but in those uh initial moments and initial meets and initial experiences, it is you're feeling out each other in, you know, they know that you're there for something that you want.
• 1:22:39
  Matt Jacob: But that there's a there's a part where you break through and you become close and you start to accept each other.
• 1:22:46
  Matt Jacob: And then making the work is is not easier, but it's a little bit more um, it's it's it's a bit a little bit more allowed and you can go a little bit more freer because you you have that trust with the other humans.
• 1:22:58
  Matt Jacob: But I I'm really kind of fascinated about how someone like yourself or any of us that want to take photographs of people essentially, it's the kind of the human factor of it.
• 1:23:08
  Matt Jacob: But building up that trust and that knowledge and that relationship.
• 1:23:13
  Matt Jacob: That's there's a moment, and certainly those initial moments where you're like, well, how do I uh how do I even get it across to them that I, you know, I want something from this, but I don't want to put them out and I don't want to intrude what's in it for them?
• 1:23:28
  Matt Jacob: Where is this all gonna kind of mesh and meet together?
• 1:23:31
  Matt Jacob: Um, maybe you you you can touch on that quickly.
• 1:23:34
  Pie Aerts: I know we're running out of time, but um so uh I have to, yeah, I have to uh uh uh answer this question.
• 1:23:43
  Pie Aerts: There's only one way you can answer this question, and that is that uh everything we've done in that region is down to the consistent commitment of Matthias being the director of this film as an uh anchor point in building the relationships.
• 1:24:00
  Pie Aerts: So working in a team of three has been incredibly challenging from day one, as in uh I was used on doing all the work alone, usually, uh which means that in these small confined spaces, mostly indoors because the weather is just often very gnarly in Patagonia.
• 1:24:18
  Pie Aerts: So you're working in these extremely small homes, often like 20 square meter cabins with two massive tripods, one with a film camera and one with a photo camera.
• 1:24:31
  Pie Aerts: And you're sitting with three human bodies in front of someone that is uh initially not necessarily keen on sharing a story, is obviously super hard.
• 1:24:44
  Pie Aerts: So from a very early stage, we decided to divide the tasks in a way that Matias was leading all the interviews uh with full attention, without any uh uh distraction of having to look at footage or operate cameras or uh do anything technical.
• 1:25:06
  Pie Aerts: Whereas me and Miller decided to just step back, literally step back to the background and let Matias lead all the interviews.
• 1:25:14
  Pie Aerts: And that has been fundamental in the building of trust and the gaining of this intimate look into their world.
• 1:25:22
  Pie Aerts: Because we've always prioritized that setup in a way that Matias has always been in charge.
• 1:25:29
  Pie Aerts: So the way he's been navigating the building of these relationships with very genuine care, patience, and uh caution in the first two years of the project has laid a foundation for doing the later work.
• 1:25:43
  Pie Aerts: So that is also one of the reasons why I decided to shoot this entire project on a tripod uh and on analog uh and on analog medium format film.
• 1:25:53
  Pie Aerts: Because I needed to find a different way of working.
• 1:25:56
  Pie Aerts: I couldn't be that like fly-in-the-war guy anymore, stepping in and out of frames all the time in the first place because we were prioritizing the interview, but in the second place because we decided that uh Miller, the cinematographer, always had right of way, because I pitched to come on board with them making a film and not the other way around.
• 1:26:16
  Pie Aerts: So I had to accept playing a secondary role in the making of this work, which was very challenging at the start.
• 1:26:22
  Pie Aerts: But when I found the methodology to operate in a different way, so people often ask about the aesthetics of the work, and uh for me picking those cameras and putting them on a tripod and actually operating the camera as if it is a large format analog camera, which it isn't, kind of completely put me into a different mindset and methodology and made it much easier for me to accept that I was sitting out and interviewed that that's often like a couple of hours, two, three, four, sometimes even longer, hours of sitting indoors and just analyzing if I can get one or two images within this day, what would that image be?
• 1:27:05
  Pie Aerts: Which is a whole different way of working, but it was fitting that the making of this works so much better than just hopping around everywhere, inside, outside, and just shooting whatever you think is interesting.
• 1:27:17
  Pie Aerts: So um, yeah, a massive tribute, and I've said this a lot uh already to people, but a massive tribute to to uh the setup of the team and Matias' role in in shaping this project, and uh there's no chance I could have done this work without without him.
• 1:27:35
  Pie Aerts: So over time, obviously, you you become more a body of one.
• 1:27:40
  Pie Aerts: So I have I'm just coming back from Chile, and I have to say that the best work of the project has been photographed in the last three weeks, even though some earlier productions have been like eight weeks at a time, often.
• 1:27:52
  Pie Aerts: But you it kind of proves that the longevity of the relationship is really paying off.
• 1:27:58
  Pie Aerts: Like the last trip we just rocked up on.
• 1:27:59
  Pie Aerts: These farms.
• 1:28:00
  Pie Aerts: There's no literally no icebreaking happening anymore.
• 1:28:04
  Pie Aerts: They are welcoming us with open arms.
• 1:28:06
  Pie Aerts: We stay over in their homes.
• 1:28:08
  Pie Aerts: We just get drunk often together.
• 1:28:10
  Pie Aerts: And the next morning we start the work.
• 1:28:13
  Pie Aerts: And that is a testament to the care and the patience that we've used in the beginning of very carefully navigating the trust that is needed to get into those homes.
• 1:28:26
  Matt Jacob: Yeah.
• 1:28:26
  Matt Jacob: Well, having having had the privilege of seeing some of your images already, not from your recent trip, but yeah, there's there's definitely um you know evidence of that trust and that relationship in those photos.
• 1:28:38
  Matt Jacob: So um we're excited to see the book.
• 1:28:40
  Matt Jacob: Tell tell tell us about when we're gonna see the film, when we're gonna see the book, how it's come about.
• 1:28:47
  Matt Jacob: Give us give us the pitch.
• 1:28:49
  Pie Aerts: I've just launched a Kickstarter campaign, which is live now.
• 1:28:52
  Pie Aerts: Uh and that Kickstarter runs for four weeks.
• 1:28:56
  Pie Aerts: And uh I'm giving out a book with um an absolute dream publisher I've been wanting to work with for a long time called Ghost Books, UK-based in London.
• 1:29:06
  Pie Aerts: Um, sequencing the book with Stuart Smith.
• 1:29:08
  Pie Aerts: Uh, I've been working with him side by side for the last three, four months now.
• 1:29:13
  Pie Aerts: Uh and it's it's been a very challenging but rewarding journey of finding the final sequence.
• 1:29:19
  Pie Aerts: But it's locked in now.
• 1:29:21
  Pie Aerts: The book is going live in August 26, which means that during this four-week Kickstarter, I'm hoping to raise as many funds as possible.
• 1:29:29
  Pie Aerts: In fact, if we if we get to the goal, uh the book will actually happen.
• 1:29:35
  Pie Aerts: Uh so I'm really making this a community effort.
• 1:29:38
  Pie Aerts: I'm really hoping that that all those years of sharing about the work uh makes people consider purchasing a book or a print.
• 1:29:46
  Pie Aerts: Uh, we've got a Kickstarter built with all these different tiers.
• 1:29:49
  Pie Aerts: People now can get like Kickstarter rates on the book, on sign books, special rates on prints.
• 1:29:55
  Pie Aerts: Like many of the things we uh that many of the products we are selling now won't ever sell again at those rates.
• 1:30:01
  Pie Aerts: So it is a good time to buy now.
• 1:30:03
  Pie Aerts: And 100% of the money raised is going straight to the publisher, and that is being used to finance the entire production of this book.
• 1:30:11
  Pie Aerts: Uh so we're printing one and a half thousand copies uh and hope to sell as many as we can in that in that uh Kickstarter campaign.
• 1:30:19
  Pie Aerts: And then the book will go into print over summer.
• 1:30:22
  Pie Aerts: Uh and then towards August, that will be the uh well, I hate the world the world international global lounge, but that's actually what it is.
• 1:30:32
  Pie Aerts: So we're launching for an international audience somewhere in in August with probably a like a kickoff lounge party in Amsterdam, uh, hopefully with an exhibition.
• 1:30:42
  Pie Aerts: I'm working on that now.
• 1:30:44
  Pie Aerts: Then the film is in production in full motion at the moment.
• 1:30:47
  Pie Aerts: Obviously, it's uh much more expensive production than the making of the book is, so we're like heavy, heavily relying on uh on finding funding to keep pushing for a final film.
• 1:30:57
  Pie Aerts: I have to say we're very deep into uh have locking in a final sequence, uh, which then brings us to uh the whole production of the actual film, like sound design, composing music, color grading, and whatnot.
• 1:31:11
  Pie Aerts: So we're still aiming to send a film in for a film festival somewhere towards the end of the summer of 26.
• 1:31:18
  Pie Aerts: So that means that that would mean that timings of the book and the film would align ideally.
• 1:31:23
  Pie Aerts: Um so if anybody is listening that would have any funding context, that would always be very welcome.
• 1:31:29
  Pie Aerts: Um the film is this depending on on foreign investment.
• 1:31:33
  Pie Aerts: So yeah, if all goes well, uh both will launch in August 26th, uh, and then we're sending this story into the world.
• 1:31:43
  Matt Jacob: Wow, I'm so excited.
• 1:31:45
  Matt Jacob: Um you're probably excited and apprehensive at the same time, but um Yeah, so I'm uh I'm I'm more frightened than excited to be honest.
• 1:31:56
  Pie Aerts: But uh it feels good to keep those anxiety levels low.
• 1:31:59
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, I haven't been sharing much of the work.
• 1:32:01
  Pie Aerts: In fact, I think uh I haven't been sharing any of the work, and I've been sharing a lot of the work in like BTS, but the actual images that will feature into the book, which is a number along the lines of 55 final images, none of them have been seen in the light of day.
• 1:32:18
  Pie Aerts: So it's it feels like sending something into the world.
• 1:32:21
  Pie Aerts: I have absolutely no clue whether people understand it or not.
• 1:32:25
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, you don't have the the social media validation behind you.
• 1:32:29
  Matt Jacob: Um why why go why Ghost?
• 1:32:33
  Matt Jacob: Uh you know, I know that's one of your favorite publishers and has been for a for a long time, but to tell us for the for those that are listening, watching that may not know much about Ghost or about publishing in general, g give us a history as to why that was a dream partnership with you.
• 1:32:49
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, so um Ghost is a publisher that has for me a very strong portfolio of working with uh like as emerging artist.
• 1:32:58
  Pie Aerts: I do consider myself an emerging artist, as well as lifetime achievement established work.
• 1:33:05
  Pie Aerts: Like I just recently did a book with Don McCullen, like one of the OGs uh still alive today.
• 1:33:11
  Pie Aerts: So um, and Larry Selton, like they work with some pretty, pretty big names, but at the same time, they create space for uh uh for people building their way into the craft.
• 1:33:23
  Pie Aerts: I think that is a beautiful, beautiful combination.
• 1:33:26
  Pie Aerts: Dan Stewart, the founder of Ghost, uh uh has an incredible eye for curation and sequencing of books.
• 1:33:32
  Pie Aerts: It's very, very known within the industry as as one of the best in that regard.
• 1:33:38
  Pie Aerts: So it's a massive honor to work side by side him and I mean sequencing a story that you're so personally connected to has been a journey as well, to say the least.
• 1:33:47
  Pie Aerts: So seeing him make certain decisions and then the whole collaborative approach of finding like a flow in this book, like a rhythmic flow that kind of functions as poetry almost has been such a rewarding uh uh journey.
• 1:34:02
  Pie Aerts: So, yeah, I um it's uh they have very good establishment within the US market.
• 1:34:08
  Pie Aerts: They've got like a distribution center in Europe as well as in the US, which makes shipping much more affordable for international backers of the project.
• 1:34:15
  Pie Aerts: So that is another reason.
• 1:34:16
  Pie Aerts: I mean, there's a lot of elements come into play.
• 1:34:18
  Pie Aerts: I certainly considered self-publishing, but the credibility and the distribution that comes with working with a respected publisher is something I was really, really keen on.
• 1:34:28
  Pie Aerts: I'm hoping this book to be sent into festivals somewhere down the down the end of this year, uh, and just see if we can really get some some eyes on on this story and and and yeah.
• 1:34:40
  Pie Aerts: So it's uh I think it's honestly I'm not saying this because uh I want to sell them, but it feels like the best possible partner to to to bring this project to life with.
• 1:34:51
  Matt Jacob: Yeah.
• 1:34:51
  Matt Jacob: In an interesting approach with the with the Kickstarter.
• 1:34:54
  Matt Jacob: I I don't know if that's a common approach, but um seems to be an intelligent one where risk is is hedged a little bit um with with that type of thing.
• 1:35:03
  Pie Aerts: So well, see, book so so uh I'm sure you know this, but bookmaking is not making anyone rich these days, certainly not photographers.
• 1:35:11
  Pie Aerts: So um I I long ago I accepted already that I would never in a million years earn back this the money I've invested in this project because it's been self-funded from day one.
• 1:35:22
  Pie Aerts: Uh obviously the book is like a massive credibility asset, but not necessarily a financial asset.
• 1:35:30
  Pie Aerts: So the way many of these publishers work nowadays, uh a few exceptions here and there, is that you just pay them a lump sum and then they take over and they realize the entire production of the book.
• 1:35:40
  Pie Aerts: So that means that Kickstarter becomes an interesting tool to uh to involve your community and do it together.
• 1:35:49
  Pie Aerts: And as you know, I'm a very keen and avid believer in the power of community.
• 1:35:55
  Pie Aerts: So I'm really hoping with this book that people will stand up and see the value of it and make it a communal effort of bringing this story to life.
• 1:36:04
  Pie Aerts: So it's not only me doing it, but together, all the people that have been following the unpacking of the story, they contribute a little bit in their own way and then get a book in return later in the year.
• 1:36:15
  Matt Jacob: Cool.
• 1:36:16
  Matt Jacob: Well, hopefully I'll be one of those Kickstarters, and um I wish you the best of luck with it.
• 1:36:21
  Matt Jacob: I I don't think I need to, but uh, you know, I know that you you would appreciate all the luck from everyone out there.
• 1:36:27
  Matt Jacob: So it's gonna be uh it's gonna be a wild success.
• 1:36:29
  Matt Jacob: I know that uh easy for me to say, uh, but it's interesting watching the journey and um super proud of you and extremely happy for you, and I can't wait to get my hands on the work.
• 1:36:39
  Pie Aerts: So thank thanks for joining me, Pete.
• 1:36:40
  Pie Aerts: Yeah, thanks for thanks for the opportunity, man.
• 1:36:42
  Matt Jacob: It's been a pleasure.
• 1:36:42
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, it's been a pleasure as always.
• 1:36:44
  Matt Jacob: And uh hopefully see you at some point this year, if not on a trip maybe in Amsterdam or I certainly hope so.
• 1:36:51
  Pie Aerts: I certainly hope so.
• 1:36:52
  Pie Aerts: Yeah.
• 1:36:53
  Matt Jacob: All right, Pete, take good care.
• 1:36:54
  Matt Jacob: Thanks so much for joining.
• 1:36:55
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, man.
• 1:36:55
  Matt Jacob: Thanks, thanks for the opportunity.
• 1:36:56
  Matt Jacob: It's been a great chat.
• 1:36:58
  Pie Aerts: Yep, thanks, Pete.
• 1:36:59
  Pie Aerts: Cheers, man.
• 1:37:00
  Pie Aerts: Cheers, bye-bye.
• 1:37:10
  Matt Jacob: If you stayed with this conversation until the end, there is a good chance that you're someone who values depth, reflection, and taking time with ideas rather than just rushing past them.
• 1:37:22
  Matt Jacob: That's the spirit behind my voice alchemy book club.
• 1:37:26
  Matt Jacob: It's a monthly space where photographers and creatives alike come together to sit with meaningful work, photo books, books, essays, and long-form projects and talk honestly about what they're seeing, feeling, and trying to make themselves better.
• 1:37:45
  Matt Jacob: It's quiet, it's thoughtful and intentionally human.
• 1:37:49
  Matt Jacob: There's no pressure to perform, no need to have answers.
• 1:37:53
  Matt Jacob: We're all just figuring it out.
• 1:37:55
  Matt Jacob: It's just time and space to reconnect with others, your work and your thinking.
• 1:38:00
  Matt Jacob: So if that sounds like something you would benefit from, you can find more information via the link in the notes and the description below.
• 1:38:08
  Matt Jacob: Hope to see you there.