Latest / Startup Dad / Did I F*ck Up Already?” My First 24 Hours as a Dad | Zach Jaffe (Dad of 1, Create Music Group)

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Did I F*ck Up Already?” My First 24 Hours as a Dad | Zach Jaffe (Dad of 1, Create Music Group) · Startup Dad

• [00:00:00] Zach Jaffe: I'm sorry, but your startup is never gonna be life or death. Like yours, mine, anybody else's, it might feel like that. You've got investors breathing down your neck. [00:00:10] Zach Jaffe: Parenting is life or death, right? as I mentioned, you know, if you leave your child in the bathtub, they're gonna drown. [00:00:15] Zach Jaffe: But with that context, it's made me calmer. And not that I was ever super, like, aggressive in the workplace, but it definitely just put things into perspective. Like, "Oh, somebody's upset about something or something went wrong. Well, let's just fix it," right? Let's be solution-oriented. [00:00:34] Speaker: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. Sometimes the hardest part of parenting isn't the sleepless nights or the tantrums, it's the complete lack of preparation for just how difficult those early months can be. [00:00:55] Speaker: Today, I'm joined by Zach Jaffe, an M&A professional who specializes in independent record label acquisitions. Having spent years in LA's music industry startup scene, Zach was the first in his friend group to have a child, which meant navigating early fatherhood largely without a roadmap. He's a dad of one three-year-old, and his candid perspective on the realities of new parenthood is both refreshing and necessary. [00:01:21] Speaker: Today, we talked about why those first six to nine months of fatherhood are brutally hard and why many parents aren't prepared for that reality. The isolation that comes when your social circle doesn't understand your life as a new parent. How surviving natural disasters with a young child tests every parenting instinct you have. [00:01:39] Speaker: The unique challenges of parenting with ADHD and how it affects both patience and presence. His approach to intentional media consumption and limiting screen time in his household, and how he's learned to apply parenting skills to improve his leadership at work. We also discussed the importance of building friendships with other parents who share your values and interests rather than just proximity-based relationships. [00:02:02] Speaker: If you like what you hear, please subscribe to Startup Dad on YouTube or Spotify so you never miss an episode. You'll find it everywhere you get your podcasts. I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Zach Jaffe. [00:02:14] Adam Fishman: Welcome Zach Jaffe to Startup Dad. Zach, my absolute pleasure having you on the show with me today. Thanks for joining me [00:02:20] Zach Jaffe: always make time for a good conversation, Adam, and this is a fairly unique one that I, I think I can incorporate some of my other, we'll call it esoteric, weird intellectual philosophies into. thanks for the opportunity and, uh, you know, let, let's get, let's get strange. [00:02:35] Adam Fishman: I appreciate the vote of confidence that this is gonna be a good conversation, so let's see if we can make that happen. [00:02:40] Adam Fishman: Um, I'm gonna skip the usual sort of setup, and I wanna start somewhere very real, uh, with you, which is, take me back to the earliest memory you have after becoming a dad. [00:02:49] Adam Fishman: What's the first thing that comes to mind? [00:02:51] Zach Jaffe: Super easy. it's two-part, and I think most parents will, feel this, which is like the moment the nurse or, you know, the person who's helping you leaves. And you're like, "Oh, no, I do this now. thought you were gonna be here the whole time," right? Until we leave-- like, at least until I got home. [00:03:10] Zach Jaffe: You know, you're just gonna leave us alone, and you'll be back in a few hours? Buzz if we need you? What if I need you the whole time? true to that point, right, like once when we got home, I th-- it had to have been within twenty-four hours. I think my daughter, like, coughed, and due to a combination of, you know, whatever hormones, lack of sleep, the stress into it, I just broke down weeping, just full on. [00:03:35] Zach Jaffe: I-- is she sick? What did I do wrong? Like, did I, did I let my parents get too close to her? They'd been out sooner the night before. Like, have I just killed my child? Did did I fail already? yeah, that, that's definitely my, like, earliest, like, impactful memory, you know, kind of tied together. It's like, oh, this is, this is me now, and also like, did I f**k up already? [00:03:56] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Well, you have a three-year-old now, so clearly the cough didn't take her out. Uh, so she's, she's thriving. [00:04:04] Zach Jaffe: definitely thriving. Still coughing on occasion, as we all know. Uh, [00:04:09] Adam Fishman: course. 'Tis the season. [00:04:11] Zach Jaffe: but, uh, yeah, sh-she's definitely thriving [00:04:13] Adam Fishman: right, so I wanna also ask you about this period of life, this sort of like first, you know, six to nine months. You've, you've a-- I don't know if it's a contrarian take, but you have a take on this period, which is that it sucks, like super hard. I've heard that a few times on this show. [00:04:26] Adam Fishman: and also that, most men aren't prepared for this because we don't have these conversations. Because like we're men. We-- Nothing sucks. Like we got it, you know? So, can you unpack that for me? Like tell me about these first,, six to nine months of parenthood. Let's have a real conversation about it. [00:04:42] Zach Jaffe: I don't know if it's necessarily like the conscious we're men, we don't talk about this sort of thing. It's definitely a subconscious thing. by way of introduction to this conversation, apologies if I get long-winded, is that I live in Los Angeles and in California generally, people get married later, they have children a little bit later, as opposed to the rest of the country. [00:05:02] Zach Jaffe: So, you know, I was in my thirties by the time I got married and had kids. And I've worked in the music industry for a really long time on the, the startup side, obviously. so I spent a lot of time out in the world, late at night. And one of the first reactions that I got from some of my, we'll call them nighttime friends, people you don't have dinner or, or you don't have coffee or lunch with, but you'll see them at two AM. [00:05:24] Adam Fishman: Right. Because they're probably not up for coffee or yeah, exactly. Was this look of astonishment when I said I was having children and a couple people going, "Well, why would you do that?" And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Well, how are you gonna, go to the warehouse party and do ketamine with me until four in the morning?" I'm like, "Well, first of all, I haven't put powders up my nose in a very long time. [00:05:48] Zach Jaffe: Second of all, you're fifty, and I don't wanna be-- That's not a lifestyle choice I would like to make for myself when I was fifty." So, you know, like, the, the general world around me was very, like, separated apart from parenting. And so obviously, my mindset was different, even though I was preparing to shift it. [00:06:09] Zach Jaffe: And I knew people down, uh, in San Diego, a lot of my close friends from, from grad school lived down there, and they'd had kids, and I spent a lot of time with them. But up here, I was the only person, I was the first one of my, like, extended friend group to have children. So there wasn't really anyone to talk to about that generally. [00:06:26] Zach Jaffe: And even my friends who had kids never really were like, "This is what it's like." And maybe I never asked, right? Like, maybe that's my, my fault. I gotta, gotta take some credit for not being maybe i-inquisitive at times of other people's problems. and so that period of time can be difficult because of the lack of sleep, um, you know, just the stress of change, right? [00:06:48] Zach Jaffe: You know, humans are change-averse, I would say, generally, in many ways. We can talk about that later. And so that six-month period is a, is a period of intense change and continual change, right? Like, the first three weeks are different than the next six weeks, which are different than the next nine weeks, which are different than the next twelve weeks, right? [00:07:08] Zach Jaffe: And every time you get into the groove, it changes again. It's like, oh, I'm, you know, putting my child in the bassinet, and now the-- we're gonna move them from the bassinet to the, the crib. Obviously, that happens months later, right? But these are all things you get used to, right? And most people aren't used to such rapid change over such a compacted period of time in any part of their life. [00:07:31] Zach Jaffe: Like, could you imagine if your job changed at your-- [00:07:35] Adam Fishman: Every couple [00:07:36] Zach Jaffe: the, yeah, with the, with the cadence at which, parenting changes in those early stages. So I think that that period, you know, it can be stressful on the relationship you have with your spouse, right? I often tell people, like, you might say some things to your spouse, or they might say some things to you during that period, and you kinda gotta, like, put that in a box. [00:07:55] Zach Jaffe: And I'm not saying don't address it ever, but, like, know that a lot of this has to do with, like, the hormonal and bodily changes your spouse is going through if they're, if they're a woman. obviously, I know that not all parents are men and women. And also just the general lack of sleep, which is... you go from sleeping what's called seven to nine hours a night to three hours interrupted. [00:08:17] Zach Jaffe: That will destroy your brain and your emotions. [00:08:20] Adam Fishman: yeah, I think that's like h- how, how prisoners are tortured in some places, right? [00:08:25] Zach Jaffe: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I always want to say like they played Nine Inch Nails and Metallica for hours on end. Like, [00:08:30] Adam Fishman: I would I like Nine Inch Nails. Yeah, it sounds great. Like, like why weren't they playing Taylor Swift? Sorry, everyone. Yeah. [00:08:36] Adam Fishman: think there's a bunch of T-Swift fans that listen to this pod, so. [00:08:39] Zach Jaffe: Never know. I, I do like one of her songs. [00:08:41] Adam Fishman: So you mentioned you were the only one of your immediate friend group, you know, your nighttime friends essentially to, to have a kid or the first one, and maybe some others have since 'cause they, they got some religion on that. [00:08:52] Adam Fishman: But like, was it a hard time to not feel like you had anybody that you could talk to about this stuff or anyone who could relate to what you were going through? [00:09:00] Zach Jaffe: For sure. and I, and I think that's kind of what I communicate to people like to, to kind of follow on from that. A good, good transition, by the way, Adam. [00:09:07] Adam Fishman: I've done this a few times. [00:09:09] Zach Jaffe: So I let them know, you know, like what my experience was, all the difficulties and, and that I experienced at first, and also the reaction that I had from many close friends, and I, and I really don't fault them for that if any of them are listening, was a lack of understanding, right? LA is a big place in particular, right? [00:09:30] Zach Jaffe: So texting me at, you know, twelve months into my child's life at five PM being like, "Hey, meet me here in the next thirty minutes." [00:09:40] Adam Fishman: Right. [00:09:42] Zach Jaffe: minutes away, right? Like That's not my life anymore, you know? And over time, I think that people began to understand that. But I, I think that only really once you've had a child, you can truly understand what the difference is between like availability, for instance. [00:10:01] Zach Jaffe: And I'm an extremely social person, like, extrovert from day one out of the womb. Like, "Oh, one of my eyes open apparently." And so I thrive off of the interaction with other people and being isolated, right? Away from social situations of which I have spent my entire life was difficult because, you know, it's like, oh, not only do I not get to do the things I used to do before, but how do I relate what I'm experiencing to other people? [00:10:27] Zach Jaffe: It's like, "Oh, he's got a kid. But, you know, that's probably hard. But, he can still go out." Well, you know what? If I go out, who's here taking care of the child? It's just my wife, So like, and if she goes out, same thing. So that, balance, right? We very quickly learned to be like, "Well, you get one of us, [00:10:44] Zach Jaffe: Which one do you want? You want me or you want her?" There's, there's a trade-off that needs to happen. So not being able to talk to anyone about like or... I didn't think that many people understood, right? And so I think that's something that, you know, I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but people should be prepared that like the people in your life who don't have children, that may be very, very close, like maybe your best friend may not fully understand what you're going through [00:11:09] Zach Jaffe: and have empathy for them, right? [00:11:11] Zach Jaffe: Like, just because they don't have the, the ability to empathize with you, like, don't be like, "Oh, my, my best friend of twenty years is being a dickhead to me." It's like, no, they're-- they just don't understand [00:11:22] Adam Fishman: Is that something that you wish that maybe somebody had clued you into before you became a parent? Like that, that seems like a thing that you kind of had to get numb to or develop some, get some reps with that like experience or that feeling. But, you know, could somebody have told you that shift was coming beforehand and helped better prepare you? [00:11:39] Adam Fishman: Or you don't, or don't you think it would've mattered at all? [00:11:41] Zach Jaffe: I don't think it really would have mattered because you really don't know who's gonna quote, "Show up" during that period. And obviously everyone, it takes a village thing is so real with children. And you know, like in California, it's expensive to live here, especially in places like LA and San Francisco. [00:11:58] Zach Jaffe: Everybody's diffuse. I know a lot of people who've had children in California, and within twelve months they're gone back to home, right? A place they never said they would return to. Ohio and Illinois and Florida and Georgia, you know, pl-- Maine. Like, "Oh, I'm never going back to that place." And then they're like, "Oh, wait, I'm here alone with my child in one of the largest, most spread out cities in the world, and all of my quote-unquote best friends who I see all the time, I'm not seeing them as much anymore. [00:12:31] Zach Jaffe: They're not coming over to my house and holding my baby for me while I take a shower," [00:12:34] Adam Fishman: Right. [00:12:36] Zach Jaffe: Indeed they will. They're not gonna do it all the time. try and build that base of what you, you'll need, that village and, hell, even ask people in advance like, "Hey, this is what I think I'm about to go through. [00:12:49] Zach Jaffe: If you could even, you know, like literally come stand by the baby a couple of days a week for the first couple weeks in the evening while I shower [00:12:56] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Make sure that they stay alive. like, or my wife just sits outside and stares at the sun," right? Like, what-whatever it is to just give you that five minutes and, and that would go a long way. [00:13:06] Zach Jaffe: So, you know, try to pre-explain things if you can, even though you don't know yourself what it'll be like yet [00:13:13] Adam Fishman: you mentioned, like, you don't know who's gonna show up for you. Were you surprised by who did and didn't show up? Maybe more so were you surprised by who did show up? you know, did you have like a party animal friend who was suddenly like, "Dude, I got you." Uh, or, or no? Or did none of that happen? [00:13:28] Zach Jaffe: Uh, I, mean, it depends on the time, right? I think over time your, your extended group will adjust. I'm extremely fortunate in that I am one of the few people in the entire city of Los Angeles, nay, the state of California, where my in-laws, who I love, live four minutes from me [00:13:49] Adam Fishman: Oh, that's pretty awesome [00:13:50] Zach Jaffe: And my brother and sister-in-law and my niece and nephew live about five minutes north of me. [00:13:57] Zach Jaffe: So-- And we're all very close. So I did have a village of support at the family level, but I'm very conscious of the fact that most people do not have that, especially here [00:14:10] Adam Fishman: you have a couple pretty dramatic stories from the earlier parts of your dad life that I want to get to in a minute, but beforehand, what's the most surprising thing that you've discovered as a, as a dad? Maybe beyond the stuff that you already, already mentioned [00:14:22] Zach Jaffe: I think this kind of goes into the, uh, a future part of the conversation, and I don't think it's a secret that being a parent tries your patience at times. Uh, you know, anybody who's engaged in pop culture or seen a child screaming in, like, the aisle of Target, uh, and, and like, you know, grabbing the kid and [00:14:43] Zach Jaffe: just, like, walking out under their shoulder. [00:14:45] Zach Jaffe: Yeah, [00:14:45] Adam Fishman: legs [00:14:46] Zach Jaffe: doing the Heisman, right? Like, like walking down the, the toy aisle, abandoning the grocery cart. Like, Everybody knows children can be difficult and try your patience. And I think the most surprising thing to me, not necessarily as an impatient person, but it's made me a more understanding person in the rest of my life, where I, uh, you don't wanna call myself narcissistic or self-centered 'cause that would be, uh, a bit aggressive and over the top. [00:15:10] Zach Jaffe: But I think in society generally, we're-- we live in a place that's quite self-involved, And maybe subconsciously we're not thinking of our self-involvement, and it's definitely made me think more about what other people might be going through in the workplace in particular, right? Like, if I know someone now who has kids or just had a kid, I'm very-- I check in with them a lot. [00:15:33] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:15:33] Zach Jaffe: You know, I, I make sure that they're doing okay. Uh, can I, can I help you with anything? oh, you know, like they didn't do a thing properly, or they were a little out of touch, or they had a brain fart like I did five minutes ago, right? I know what's happening to them. So I think one of the most surprising things is I guess it has changed me as a, as a person, right? Like that, that I didn't think about, like, that change. Like what does it do to me outside of the realm of parenting? How does it make me aware of other people's, struggles, we'll call it. [00:16:03] Adam Fishman: okay, I want to talk about those two wild stories. So first one, you drove your nine-month-old daughter from San Francisco to LA, during what you described as a pseudo hurricane. set the scene for me. Like, what, what are we dealing with here? [00:16:18] Zach Jaffe: So we went up to San Francisco, I think it was around Thanksgiving or shortly before. I believe it was for a funeral for an extended family member, and we were all-- like the whole family went, like mother, father-in-law, we all drove in sep-separate cars. And, you know, I've lived in California for sixteen years. [00:16:37] Zach Jaffe: I don't think there's ever been a hurricane that I can remember happening. But if you remember, three years ago, well, two and a half years ago, there was a hurricane coming up the coast from Mexico. Don't know what it was called, and it was going to hit Southern California in terms of like just lots and lots and lots of rain. And there was gonna be a lot of wind, and we had left our cat at home. And so, like, I got super anxious about being away from the house and like, "You know what? Let's leave. Let's go back a day early and beat the hurricane." You know, like I don't want to be driving in it, right? I want to just like, like let's just go back and beat it. Somewhere in the Central Valley at about one AM, with the hurricane still apparently way, way off the coast, had pushed all that warm air in and caused like the most colossal thunderstorm, lightning, pouring rain that I've ever seen. And my wife the whole time, like I've driven in crazy rain before. I've done a lot of cross-country road trips, just white-knuckling, holding the... You know, I'm, [00:17:43] Zach Jaffe: you know, listen-- [00:17:43] Zach Jaffe: I'm listening to music like, like I'm, you know, paying attention, like trying to talk. She's like, "Don't f**king talk to me. Do not f**king talk to me. We're all gonna die. We're all gonna die." Like, I'm like, I'm [00:17:53] Zach Jaffe: like, "No, no, it's..." And my nine-month-old in, in the back, and so she's just like, you know, like, "Slow down." [00:17:58] Zach Jaffe: Like, like, "Now you need to stop talking to me." Like, like, your fear and anxiety is, is impacting me." But The irony is not missing to me that we tried to get back before the storm and encountered, you know, like a byproduct of the storm, for that. So that was, that was [00:18:15] Adam Fishman: so the, so the two, the two of you have this just like nobody talk white knuckle, like we're focused on the road, protect the baby. Like, so you have this like experience starting like midway through the trip. When you got home, what did you and your wife say to each other like at the end of that trip? [00:18:30] Adam Fishman: Was it like, "Let us never speak of this again"? Was it like, "Wow, we made it"? Like what, what was that-- what was the end of the trip like? [00:18:38] Zach Jaffe: I was just like, I'm never, never driving in the rain at night again, you know? [00:18:42] Adam Fishman: Yes. Yes. A valuable life lesson was learned by all. and how was your daughter on this trip? Like, just cooing in the backseat, just [00:18:51] Zach Jaffe: Sleep. [00:18:51] Zach Jaffe: I'm very lucky that I have a very good sleeping child. I'm sorry to all of the other parents out there. You know, I, I learned very quickly to not say that to people who are also new parents, and they'd be like, "Oh, [00:19:04] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Must they get very quiet? Yeah, very focused. Stare into your soul. [00:19:11] Zach Jaffe: at me [00:19:11] Adam Fishman: Yes. [00:19:14] Adam Fishman: Okay, the second thing, is a su- also a pseudo hurricane, but not really, but, but equally scary. [00:19:18] Adam Fishman: you just lived through the 2025 Pasadena and Altadena fires, [00:19:21] Adam Fishman: was massive. And, you know, I have friends who lost their homes. Like, it's, it's, uh... I have friends who were on the cusp of that. I was checking in with them regularly. Like, it was scary. It was, it was scary. There was a lot of loss. [00:19:33] Adam Fishman: what was that experience like for you as a, as a father? [00:19:35] Zach Jaffe: the same thing obviously we also had, our mutual friend actually who introduced us, right? They were out of their place forever, had thrown, threw all their stuff away. They had their, had their home luckily, but, lost all of their possessions from, smoke damage and, and pollution, right? [00:19:50] Zach Jaffe: it was confusing, right? Because it, it moved so fast that there was not a lot of ability to get information and, you know, there's very little by way of local centralized reporting anywhere in the world these days, right? So where am I gonna get information? It's like, okay, let me redownload, Twitter, Blue Sky, uh, uh, Instagram, a subscription to the LA Times. [00:20:15] Zach Jaffe: Like, just the Fire Watch app. [00:20:18] Zach Jaffe: Like The only way I know how to do it is like through my phone, right? Like how do I get up-to-date information flipping through all of these things? Okay, the fire's going, it's going here, it's going here. And we're about, I don't know Four miles from where the fire line was, so [00:20:31] Zach Jaffe: we're, we're a bit further south. [00:20:33] Zach Jaffe: Uh, Yeah, yeah. Well, the, the smoke, right, was starting to, you know, so it sealed up all the doors and, and windows. And I was like, I was like, "Oh, you know what? I'm gonna go to bed." And I went to bed and, like, I think I was on Twitter and, laying there, you know, like, I'm gonna go to sleep. And I saw that, like some guy who's claimed to be a former firefighter was like, " This sh*t's way more serious than anyone is giving it credit for, and, it's gonna keep moving." [00:20:59] Zach Jaffe: So I got up out of bed and, like, duct taped all the windows and, uh, that weren't, you know, uh, double pane, the door, closed up the fireplace, put some cardboard on that duct tape, and just started packing bags. And, we ended up waking up the next morning with, like, headaches, even though everything was light. [00:21:18] Zach Jaffe: And I was like, "We're out of here." Like, I'm not gonna leave my daughter in the... And it was, like, out the windows over here, it looked like... Have you ever seen Cormac McCarthy, [00:21:26] Zach Jaffe: The Road? [00:21:27] Zach Jaffe: Yeah, [00:21:27] Zach Jaffe: that's what it looked like. Uh, out the window. Just, just Everything had gone black and white. And so luckily, we have some very close friends in San Diego with houses large enough to house us, so we just, we left, went down there for a few days. [00:21:39] Zach Jaffe: But I think as a, you know, as a pa-parent, right, it was the first thing, like protect my family and, possessions. Who cares? I'm gonna take, like, this shirt and, like, a bunch of others. And actually, that was quite liberating. I was like, "Oh, well, if I lose everything, yeah, yes, Buddhist, no attachment to, to anything. [00:21:54] Zach Jaffe: Uh, I'll reach some sort of a higher plane, not have to deal with all of my, uh, my sh*t." but yeah, extremely stressful.there was a lot of cleanup and stuff that happened thereafter. You know, kids couldn't play outside for a few months while they, like, turned the sand over in the parking lot or, or in the, um, in the, in the playground. [00:22:11] Zach Jaffe: And, you know, I still consider, like, what are the after effects of it? But yeah, it's a, a pretty sobering experience to be like, "Oh, we're now in survival mode. we, we have our lives. That's, that's good. we don't really need anything else." [00:22:23] Zach Jaffe: Yep. Has that changed, how you parent day-to-day or how you think about like the likelihood of another one of these situations happening definitely. Uh, I mean, there was a-- it may even still be burning. There was a, a sandy fire or something in Ventura, two days ago. I walked down to the porch and I was like, "smells like fire." And I was like, "Oh." That puts you back in that mind state, right? Like, "Oh, if this happens again, at least I know what to do." [00:22:49] Zach Jaffe: But, we're living in a time where that stuff can and will happen again. And, true to the change of parenting and the changing of life, there's nothing that you can really prepare for. And so I guess the-- it's prepared me to expect the unexpected, I guess. [00:23:02] Adam Fishman: I want to talk about sleep and mental and physical health, because I know that's important for you. and, so when I asked you for like topics that were, that were things you wanted to discuss, you, you mentioned this, called out sleep and mental and physical health. and that's in your-- It was in your top three topics, which is, which means it's important. [00:23:19] Adam Fishman: So why is this so high on your list? [00:23:21] Zach Jaffe: Well, I think especially in the, you know, let's take it back to the, the first word of this podcast, the startup, right? In the world of a, of fast-growing, often venture-backed business trying to be first to market, the culture is one of go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Oh, I only need to sleep three hours a night, And I think there's been scientific studies that there's like, there's point zero five percent of the population or something like that, that actually can survive on three or f-- and like they're X-Men, right? Like that, that is legitimately a superpower. And oftentimes when I meet someone, I'm like, "Wow, they're extremely smart and put together." [00:24:00] Zach Jaffe: And like, " Hey, how often do you sleep?" "Oh, three hours, four hours a night." "All the time?" "Yeah." I'm like, "Ah, I found one of you," right? But most people are lying about that to themselves and to others, right? Like, "Oh, I need sleep." And as we get older, right, this thing's atrophying every day, uh, little by little, you need more sleep. [00:24:18] Zach Jaffe: And so, you know, when I started being a parent and also trying to work as much as I was working before, that, that's just not compatible, right? Like there's a, a loss. You're compounding losses, right? For every hour that you're not sleeping under six or seven hours, the end of your day is gonna get less and less and less and less and less efficient. [00:24:41] Zach Jaffe: And your value to yourself, to your business, to others will dramatically decrease, whether or not you believe it will or not. You're not on your A game, and if you don't get that rest, your body can't heal, your brain's not gonna be on time. Your business may or may not-- your heart pre-- your blood pressure's gonna go up, right? [00:25:03] Zach Jaffe: You, wanna be the, the person who had a, you know, a, a heart attack at, thirty-five because you were trying to work fifteen hours a day to run a, a business? [00:25:12] Adam Fishman: Yeah, no, Would, would you say that your pivot point on this and developing th- this sort of point of view, like was becoming a dad a thing that triggered this to like sort of reevaluate your own relationship with, with your health and your sleep and your, and your wellness? Or were you on this journey before, [00:25:29] Zach Jaffe: I've been on the journey for a while. Like, I've been meditating for years. I think, uh, started, like, reading and listening to Sam Harris and being a part of, like, the Waking Up community [00:25:38] Zach Jaffe: a decade ago. And even just five minutes of meditation when I wake up in the morning really allows me to set the stage for the rest of the day. [00:25:48] Zach Jaffe: Sometimes if I have a really important meeting, I'll meditate for five minutes before the meeting, right? Like just note silence notification, sit, do some box breathing. it definitely helps me sleep. There's a lot of people I-- you know, people all struggle with sleep. It's like how many different sleep aids can you take to get down? [00:26:05] Zach Jaffe: You know, I love my GABA melatonin and, uh, theanine as much as the, the next person. However, the thing that I find the most helpful is literally focusing on my breath to fall asleep. It works-- I'm not gonna say it works a hundred percent of the time, but eighty percent of the time. It's like, oh, my br-- my mind is racing. [00:26:26] Zach Jaffe: What if I just Focal, focal point like, you know, to the front of my face, breathe and, "Oh, I'm asleep." [00:26:37] Adam Fishman: Yeah, [00:26:37] Zach Jaffe: So it can carry over and, and also, you know, mindfulness is just a good practice, uh, in a busy world [00:26:44] Adam Fishman: that sounds like a pretty straightforward... I, you know, I've never been one, I've never been a person that meditates. always thought about it, but I, I've never developed a practice. And, and it's always felt like, there's like a regular version of it, and then there's like the Instagram version, And, uh, and you, you, what you're describing, it seems like an approachable, like regular version of this. And so, it sounds pretty straightforward. You just breathe, count the breaths, focus on them, and, you know, that's meditation, [00:27:13] Zach Jaffe: Yeah. Well, I mean, it, it's just diverting your attention to a very specific thing. And, you know, I've been to Burning Man a whole bunch of times. Like, I've been around the, we'll call it, the Instagram version where, you know, meditation is not just a practice that you use but a, a lifestyle. [00:27:32] Adam Fishman: Yeah, it's like a [00:27:32] Zach Jaffe: And [00:27:33] Zach Jaffe: that sh*t just turns me off, right? [00:27:35] Zach Jaffe: it's not approachable for most people. It turns most people off. Whereas like, "Oh, here's a practical thing you can do. Oh, you're distracted at work during the day, or you can't focus on your child, or you're code-switching between email and Slack messages and phone calls and DMs and Signal messages and WhatsApp messages and Telegram messages and phone calls, and your spouse is calling you, and you're..." [00:27:56] Zach Jaffe: It li-like, "All right, well, turn all that off for five minutes and just, just practice focusing on one thing to yourself." [00:28:03] Adam Fishman: so inevitably there's a time when like all this stuff falls apart, right? Like sleep goes out the window, maybe your meditation practice slips a little bit, or your brain is racing so much it's really hard to get that focus that you want, or you're running on empty or something like that. Like what do you do? [00:28:21] Adam Fishman: What, what do you do when everything kind of like falls, falls apart? Like how do you collect yourself and center yourself again? [00:28:29] Zach Jaffe: I go for a walk, [00:28:30] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:28:31] Zach Jaffe: move my body. [00:28:32] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:28:33] Zach Jaffe: I wish I could say I'm a, a gym rat like I was in my, uh, twenties. That would be a blatant lie. [00:28:39] Adam Fishman: I appreciate the Yeah [00:28:42] Zach Jaffe: I, I, I do a fair amount of push-ups, uh, throughout the day just to, not be sitting. You know, I had a coworker years ago who said, "Sitting is the new smoking." [00:28:52] Zach Jaffe: Uh, a-and she said that somewhat jokingly, but also, uh, it is. so as the kids say, touch grass. Like, literally get up from your desk and walk outside. You know, I've worked with people in the, the startup world who are like, on the phone on their way out of the shower, right? To get dressed. Like, need that money so bad that they can't even give themselves, like, the window between taking a shower and getting dressed for themselves. And so, you know, if you're in that mindset, being outside, getting some vitamin D, seeing the sun, just like nature. Even if you don't live in nature, right? [00:29:33] Zach Jaffe: Like, I don't care if you live in Berlin or New York City or London or downtown Los Angeles, you're still outside. You're not at the, the control center. You don't need to be at the control center the whole time. [00:29:46] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:29:47] Zach Jaffe: not life or death. It really isn't [00:29:49] Adam Fishman: I found that that's helpful for me too. I've tried specifically to just get away from my desk once a day, even if it's for 10 minutes and just stroll, stand outside, let the sun hit my face. If the sun is out, which we live in California, so it usually is. So, [00:30:05] Zach Jaffe: if it's a couple of minutes, like literally 90 seconds, just walk outside and sit there and do nothing el-- Leave your phone inside. Just walk out your front door and sit there. [00:30:16] Adam Fishman: Yep. [00:30:17] Zach Jaffe: Okay, now I can go back in [00:30:19] Adam Fishman: on this note, I wanna talk about this sort of bonus topic that you flagged, and this is something that I think a lot about. you have lived with, you described severe, repeatedly diagnosed ADHD your whole life. what does this look like for you as a dad? [00:30:34] Adam Fishman: Well, I can tell you that any, mental health professional I've ever sought out within five minutes of meeting goes, "This, this tracks. [00:30:42] Zach Jaffe: And I wasn't actually... You know, I was diagnosed repeatedly as a child, but never medicated. I made it through just fine. It's, it's actually gotten worse as I've gotten older, pro-probably as a result of, well, all of this, r-r-r-the command center, right? [00:30:55] Zach Jaffe: so as a parent, you know, I tend to be forgetful already, but not about, like, really important stuff, but just, like, I will go downstairs to get something Go downstairs, come back up, sit down. Oh, I forgot the thing. Get up, go downstairs, come back up. I forgot the thing again. I've done that up to three times to do a very specific task. [00:31:20] Zach Jaffe: You know, it's the, the movie Up, the, the dog that's like, "Squirrel, squirrel," right? that can be me at times. And when you're parenting, obviously, that can irk your spouse, cause you unnecessary stress. So it's definitely made me more self-aware of what to focus on at a given time, especially given that unlike running a business, even though it may feel like it, parenting is life or death in some situations, and often, especially in the early times, right? [00:31:52] Zach Jaffe: Like, you need to be aware of what is happening to your child. As the, you know, the time goes on, you the beginning, if you put them down on the bed or on the floor, like, they're not gonna go anywhere. But then they start crawling, right? And then they start walking, and your awareness needs to, to change. [00:32:07] Zach Jaffe: So being someone who is easily distracted, let's see, say, I can hyper-focus on something, [00:32:14] Adam Fishman: That's one of the yeah, right? and fortunately for me, I work in, in M&A, and so I'm frequently, we'll call it code switching between different businesses that I'm either acquired or about to acquire. And so I get to hyper-focus on this, and then I move to the next one. [00:32:32] Zach Jaffe: Hyper-focus on this, move to the next one. And from a parenting perspective, it's like, all right, I'm gonna hyper-focus on making breakfast and coffee and lunch and going, getting my daughter out of the house. That's it. I'm gonna focus on that. Oh, she wants something? You're gonna have to wait for daddy for like five minutes 'cause he's hyper-focusing. [00:32:52] Zach Jaffe: Thank you. Uh, I think actually my daughter said to me the other day, she's like, "Are you focusing, Daddy?" It's like, "I am. [00:33:00] Adam Fishman: Well, it's interesting because kids, and I find this especially when kids get older and they are maybe more aware of stuff, my kids will still interrupt me. And it's always in the moment where I am intensely trying to get through a task or something, like if I'm in my office. And so I have to literally like hold up a finger and just be like, " I gotta finish this." [00:33:24] Adam Fishman: I'm intensely staring at my screen. I need to finish this thought because if I don't, it's gonna go. And then I'm gonna forget it, and I'm not gonna come back to it, and I'm gonna be like, "Why didn't I do that thing three days ago?" have you figured out-- this ability to hyperfocus, you know, with ADHD, a lot of it has to do with you can hyperfocus on things that you are actually enjoying. [00:33:46] Adam Fishman: it is easier to get distracted from the things that you don't wanna be doing, right? So have you figured out, like, is there a strategy or have any, any tips or tricks that you figured out that, genuinely like help you drive that, that hyperfocus or help you like, stiff arm the other distractions around you? [00:34:03] Zach Jaffe: I program and project manage my life, right? Like my, my home screen on my phone is a reminder list. [00:34:11] Zach Jaffe: I have to swipe to another screen in order to see an app [00:34:16] Adam Fishman: Ah. [00:34:17] Zach Jaffe: like, oh, when I open my device, here's all the sh*t that I need to do [00:34:22] Adam Fishman: Yep. [00:34:23] Zach Jaffe: before I even get to like, you know, check my email [00:34:26] Adam Fishman: Is that and is that like a widget or something [00:34:29] Zach Jaffe: just use the reminder, just I use the reminders app widget. [00:34:31] Zach Jaffe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just on the iOS, I'm like, priority reminders. They're right there. then when it comes to like balancing work stuff, you know, I'm firm believer in good PMing and, project management skills and, and breaking complicated problems into small, discrete ones. So, as a parent, you know, obviously some of these problems are, they don't really have solutions, right? [00:34:53] Zach Jaffe: It might be like, it's not, I'm not saying it's the, the, best of two bad options that you might have, but you might have, uh, you might have no options, right? Like just like, oh, I need to figure out how to do this thing that I don't know how to do, or my daughter wants to, you know, put tape on her, her doll, and I don't have any tape at hand. [00:35:13] Zach Jaffe: Like, here, I think there's some painter tape in here. Let me grab that. okay, your doll's fixed now [00:35:17] Adam Fishman: speaking of your daughter, so my experience is that ADHD can be an inherited trait, it can be hereditary, it can be passed down, like it's genetic in some cases. Not in all cases, but I think it is more common for the child of somebody with ADHD to, to potentially have it themselves. Is that something that you worry about for your daughter, are looking out for, like will get her tested at a young age? [00:35:42] Adam Fishman: Like what, what-- how do you think about potentially heading that off at, the pass or, or managing that possibility with your daughter? [00:35:50] Zach Jaffe: It's hard to say. I mean, toddler is gonna be easily distracted [00:35:54] Zach Jaffe: already. a toddler always looks like they have yeah, [00:35:58] Zach Jaffe: when we're doing something, like, do it fully. Like, we go camping a lot. she really enjoys being in the tent and, like, the process of camping, which is not an experience that most people, I think, have with toddlers. [00:36:09] Zach Jaffe: And so she knows, like, we're gonna pack for it. We're gonna, like, be outside. There's no distractions. limiting the sort of media that I let her consume, not being at a frenetic pace. Like, I, I can't remember what was going on, but I think we had my niece and nephew over for Val-- it was Valentine's Day, and there was a Muppet special that came out fairly recently on Disney Plus that, like, they brought back the Muppet Show with Sabrina Carpenter. [00:36:34] Zach Jaffe: It was actually really funny. And I was like, "I'm gonna show this to my daughter and, and my niece and nephew," while we were having their little, like, cousins Valentine's Day. And I-- my daughter is used to, we'll call it slow media, right? Like, she doesn't have a ton of screen time. She has some, but I'm very specific on what I show her. [00:36:52] Zach Jaffe: And my niece and nephew are a little bit older, like five and six. The beginning of that Muppets episode is, like, Kermit pensively, like, walking down a hallway with, like, photos of the nineteen sixties or seventies Muppet Show, like, on the wall. And it's like the, the Rainbow Connection's playing on piano, and he's walking. [00:37:10] Zach Jaffe: He's, like, sipping his coffee. And within thirty seconds, my niece and nephew were like, "When does it start? Is it over yet?" They're like, "I don't understand what's happening." They're like, "What, what?" They're like, where's the stimulation? Where's the stimulation? Where's the stimulation?" As I've seen some of the cartoons that I've watched with them, like, when I've gone to babysit them, it's like [00:37:27] Adam Fishman: Yeah, [00:37:28] Zach Jaffe: there's not a moment of, of breathing, right? [00:37:30] Zach Jaffe: Just colors, noise, sounds, constant, constant, constant. And so I thought it was fascinating that, like, oh, like, people can't even stand thirty seconds of this. And this is, you know, like, my, my family are all child psychologists, so don't, don't take this as me saying that, my niece and nephew are being, badly parented. [00:37:51] Adam Fishman: No, it sounds like they're mostly norm- normal kids in that regard, right? [00:37:55] Zach Jaffe: So I-- but I'm trying to be conscious of, of that, attention. And I think we're kind of becoming more, not even kind of, becoming more aware of, call it the ills of technology and what it can do to the shredded attention spans we all have. [00:38:10] Zach Jaffe: And so just being mindful of that as she grows up, I think, is the, the thing that I'm gonna be most [00:38:14] Adam Fishman: Yeah. all right. [00:38:16] Adam Fishman: I had a, another founder who became a stay-at-home dad on the show, and he talked about the idea of the dopamine desert and how to sort of avoid the dopamine hits. He was describing it in terms of becoming a stay-at-home dad and how that is a dopamine desert in a lot of cases, 'cause everything slows way down. [00:38:35] Adam Fishman: But I think it equally applies to this idea of like screens and the cut scenes and the, like, what it means to not have those dopamine hits constantly flying in your face, [00:38:46] Zach Jaffe: I might be jumping ahead in our conversation, but think one of the questions that you asked me is what sort of technology that I use [00:38:55] Adam Fishman: Well, let's talk about it. let's talk about it. it. seems like a good, a good time to do that. So yeah, tell me about that, and even we could talk about your media diet too, 'cause I know you have some specific thoughts on, on that. So yeah, so tell me about tech with-- tech and parenting. [00:39:07] Zach Jaffe: let's jump off of the, the dopamine desert [00:39:10] Zach Jaffe: and we're gonna broaden the aperture. We've been trained, um, I'll be forty this year, so anybody my age to, uh, so anybody who's been a conscious adult or youth for the past thirty years, beginning with, we'll call it like the L- AOL dial-up internet era to present day, inclusive of email, social media, and everything in between, that internet products, digital products are free and frictionless. [00:39:40] Zach Jaffe: We all know that free is a very relative term. We've paid in many other ways: our attention, our fracturing of our political discourse, uh, uh, our privacy, right? Like many-- I don't know if anyone can see the books on my shelf behind me, but you'll get a good idea of how I feel, uh, truly about these things sometimes. [00:39:59] Zach Jaffe: and we're now entering a new era of this, and I'm seeing it deployed in the workplace and in other places. And the AI products that are being made, indeed by probably some of the people who are on this podcast or listening to it, are also dopamine lips. [00:40:16] Adam Fishman: Mm-hmm. [00:40:17] Zach Jaffe: They're no different than the products that have been made previously. [00:40:22] Zach Jaffe: Apologies to all the Meta engineers out there [00:40:24] Adam Fishman: Although there are fewer and fewer of them each day [00:40:26] Zach Jaffe: truly. but you know, if I open up Claude or ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever, it's never gonna tell me I'm done, right? If I do a task for work, it's never gonna tell me I'm done. It's like, "Great job, bro. Good idea. What do you want to do next? [00:40:41] Zach Jaffe: What do you want to do next?" This is glazing affirmation. [00:40:44] Zach Jaffe: It's the same thing, we're getting this loop of positive reinforcement to get you to keep using the product. This is a time-tested psychological trick that all products and advertising use. [00:41:04] Zach Jaffe: So when it comes to, like, how I believe those things have a place in parenting, I believe they don't. [00:41:05] Zach Jaffe: Full stop. I understand how transformer models work and how tokenization works and how, uh, inference works, and I have just zero interest in receiving the average mean of all parenting wisdom to impart on my child. Now, is this to say that all the parenting wisdom I get from other places is perfect? No. However, I don't want to intermediate my relationship with my child with a non-sentient robot [00:41:43] Zach Jaffe: Like there doesn't need to be a mediation layer between an intrapersonal relationship for me, especially one with my child. Like we have lived however many hundreds of thousands of years, surviving from, beating things you know, with sticks and, you know, carrying children on our back while we hunted lions in the savannah I think we can survive now keeping some of these technologies isolated to our work Like and I guess in some cases like personal lives, but like the fun side of things. Like go make a remix of something on Suno send a stupid meme to someone that you made quickly with a, an image generator. [00:42:24] Zach Jaffe: Sure, whatever. [00:42:25] Zach Jaffe: But I'm never gonna be like, "Hey, do you wanna, you know, write your own storybook using this?" Like, no, we're gonna write the storybook. The imagination Like, component, like I, I wanna sit down with a pen and paper and like watch her draw. [00:42:41] Zach Jaffe: I don't wanna give her the instant gratification the creation the struggle of like, "Oh, you thought of this thing? [00:42:45] Zach Jaffe: Here it is." [00:42:46] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:42:47] Zach Jaffe: the that is art, right? Like the-- any sort of creative endeavor, enjoyment. The enjoyment comes in the doing, not into the, the end point. [00:43:06] Zach Jaffe: So that was a very long-winded way of saying, you know, from the ADHD thing to how I incorporate technology, I think it's, you know, people are people, and we should treat them as people. [00:43:09] Zach Jaffe: And when you start intermediating, uh, children with technology at a very young age, it can change the way that they interact with other children, with other adults, with the way that they might get frustrated as they grow up because quite frankly, I mean, like we all know what helicopter parenting is, right? [00:43:27] Zach Jaffe: Like that, that's a very notorious thing now, and people are starting to shy away from it. So you get, you gr-- raise a child, and they go to college, and when everything has been bulldozed ahead of them to have a nice background, and they first-- they encounter adversity, they f**king wilt. [00:43:43] Adam Fishman: they crumble. Yeah. [00:43:44] Zach Jaffe: And I've watched, you know, some, some younger kids who come into like the workplace. [00:43:49] Zach Jaffe: It's like, "Hey, could you do the..." Like, very benign feedback, right? Like, "Hey, this was done slightly wrong. Can you redo it?" Total breakdown. Like, "Oh my God, I can't. Why, why am I being criticized?" [00:44:02] Zach Jaffe: not every comment is criticism, right? So I, I think there's a very important thing that we as adults need to be aware of as we forge ahead into this brave new technological world, which will be a transition in many ways of society, to keep the human element as close as possible when it comes to raising your [00:44:21] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:44:21] Adam Fishman: s [00:44:36] Adam Fishman: o I want to draw this distinction here because we, we talked about this in terms of raising your kids, but I think there is a line maybe that you draw somewhere because you, you know, you told me that you use AI automations and automations in your, in your work life, I think. but it seems like that's specifically so that you can free up time to be more present for the personal relationships with your daughter or to be a better dad and not get bogged down by the minutiae of what, what could be automated at work. [00:44:51] Adam Fishman: So I think what I'm hearing, and please correct, correct the record on this if I'm restating this wrong, is like there is a place for AI in your life. It's just not inside the parenting aspect of your [00:45:04] Zach Jaffe: Correct. Correct. And I believe that every technology, much like a vehicle, is, uh, dangerous if you don't drive it properly. So, you know, my usage is focused, hyper-focused indeed. I build automations and, pipelines that are very specific to my very strange and specific job, which is acquiring independent record labels, of which there are many. [00:45:29] Zach Jaffe: And I need to be able to move between stakeholders at my organization, seller stakeholders, and then things that we've acquired, which is, you know, being a single point of light between hundreds of people on both sides. [00:45:43] Zach Jaffe: I genuinely don't believe I would be able to do my job successfully the way I've been doing it without having built my own databases that I can query and connecting all of the points, the omnidirectional points of light that I need in order to communicate effectively to others, like meeting transcriptions and summaries with my pre-prompts, f**king invaluable to me. [00:46:07] Adam Fishman: Ja. [00:46:07] Zach Jaffe: And being able to tag my own data and talk back to it. I can do things way more efficiently than I could have done, you know, hand-typing notes and then like sorting them and figuring out what deliverables are. And obviously, I have to review things because all this sh*t is highly imperfect, [00:46:21] Adam Fishman: Sh*t [00:46:22] Zach Jaffe: but I can do it. [00:46:24] Zach Jaffe: Like, I'm not gonna risk, hallucinating, you know, who was meant to schedule the next meeting if it was meant to be me, because the entire, the entire technology is hallucinating, right? Like, it's [00:46:35] Adam Fishman: Right That's how transformers work. [00:46:39] Adam Fishman: Predicting, [00:46:40] Adam Fishman: okay, so one more to- one more thing on the AI topic. I think there is one place maybe where this has intersected with your parenting life. You mentioned to me this idea, cause I, I like to ask people the most creative use of AI as, as, as a parent. [00:46:53] Adam Fishman: And clearly I know where you stand on the, like, should it be involved in parenting, like any, any interpersonal relationship with your kid. That's a hard no for you, and I, support that. but one of the, one of the things you mentioned to me was, maybe the most creative thing that you've done from a parenting perspective is looking up, uh, hand, foot, and mouth disease symptoms on, on Perplexity. [00:47:12] Adam Fishman: And so I, I, I think there's a story there that I would really like to hear. [00:47:17] Zach Jaffe: for those of you-- like my wife and I both work, right? We both have full-time jobs. So and I'm not-- let me be clear, I have-- I am not and I have never been a founder, and I know that is a very important distinction in our world. I also have no interest in doing that, which was a very funny thing to have people react to when I lived in San Francisco. [00:47:40] Zach Jaffe: "What do you mean you didn't exit four businesses before breakfast?" "No." "Well, are you gonna do any before lunch?" "No. I'm happy to support--" And like I've been an advisor to founders and been a part of-- like I understand what that entails, just not for me. I don't think I could do it with my hyperfocus being needed to be directed in different ways. [00:48:02] Zach Jaffe: So kids in daycare, they're gonna come home with all sorts of sh*t. Like that's another thing, Like if you need to put your kid in daycare, be prepared that you're gonna put them in daycare and a week later they're gonna be home for, for a week, right? And then you're gonna put them back and a week-- So you're gonna pay for two months of daycare, but you're gonna get like one month out of it, right? [00:48:20] Zach Jaffe: And you part of-- That's the circle of life. That's part of [00:48:23] Zach Jaffe: it [00:48:23] Zach Jaffe: You'll be sick, they'll be sick. You'll be trying to work while they're on the ground and you're coughing, you know. And so like she had something like a redness on her hand or something or it was on her... And so, you know, it's like take a picture of the small portion of the rash so I'm not like putting her on the internet, which I have never done. [00:48:42] Zach Jaffe: Her face does not exist on, on the internet. and being like, "Is this hand, foot, and mouth disease?" And it was like, "No, it's not." Although, you know, like you might want to check and, you know, we actually avoided the whole hand, foot, and mouth disease thing even though it had spread through the classroom many times. [00:49:01] Zach Jaffe: But you know, there, there's definitely a part-- I mean, that's a search tool, right? I [00:49:05] Adam Fishman: Sure. [00:49:06] Zach Jaffe: no qualms about that. It's, you [00:49:07] Zach Jaffe: know, it's might as well be asking Jeeves, RIP [00:49:11] Adam Fishman: Oh, I know. God, let's pour one out for, for [00:49:13] Zach Jaffe: Yeah, Ask.com closed I know. I, [00:49:16] Adam Fishman: I saw that. It was the end of an era. okay, I love that. I love that, love that. And I'm very happy that, that hand-foot-and-mouth disease did not find its way into your household because, uh, I'm gonna cross my fingers on that one for you and knock all the wood because it, you know, never say never. [00:49:29] Adam Fishman: okay, I wanna come back to pivoting topics a little bit. You know, we'll come back to attention in a minute. and I wanna talk about your media diet too at some point. But, um, there was a thing that you told me about, which is, which I, I really wanna dig into, which is that, learning to parent has really improved your work life. [00:49:50] Adam Fishman: Um, and you mentioned earlier in the recording, that it has helped you at least build empathy for other parents. But I think that what you're saying here is that there's like maybe more to this in terms of how it's improved your work life or made you a better, I don't know, worker, [00:50:07] Adam Fishman: denizen. [00:50:08] Zach Jaffe: that's been it. [00:50:10] Adam Fishman: make that case for me. [00:50:11] Adam Fishman: Tell me how that's, how that's helped you, [00:50:13] Zach Jaffe: Yeah, it certainly made me a, a better employee, a better manager, a better colleague in that, you know, like I alluded to earlier, I'm sorry, but your startup is never gonna be life or death. Like yours, mine, anybody else's, it might feel like that. You've got investors breathing down your neck. They want to show growth. [00:50:37] Zach Jaffe: How much are you gonna scale? What's your-- what are your user retention? Are you hitting your KPIs and OKRs and whatever other metrics that you've set for yourself? And, you know, once a metric, becomes a target, it ceases to be a good metric. I do believe that [00:50:50] Adam Fishman: Yep [00:50:51] Zach Jaffe: Parenting is life or death, right? As, as I mentioned, you know, if you leave your child in the bathtub, they're gonna drown. [00:50:58] Zach Jaffe: If you put them on a bunch of pillows, they're gonna, you know... And you lay down. You know what I'm saying, right? [00:51:04] Zach Jaffe: Like, [00:51:05] Adam Fishman: ja [00:51:06] Zach Jaffe: unfortunately, bad things happen to children all the time. So as a good parent, you're diligent, you're aware, you take care of your child. You're not extreme, right? Like, you're not gonna put them in a bubble. [00:51:16] Zach Jaffe: But with that context, it's made me calmer. And not that I was ever super, like, aggressive in the workplace, but it definitely just put things into perspective. Like, "Oh, somebody's upset about something or something went wrong. Well, let's just fix it," right? Let's be solution-oriented. Let's not talk about it a whole bunch. [00:51:43] Zach Jaffe: Let's not place blame. What happened, happened. We can look back on what processes led to that failure later, but let's just take it. If something's not working, let's fix it. You're unhappy, let's make you happy. This went wrong, let's make it right. Oh, you wanna talk more about it? That's fine. We can talk more about it later. [00:52:05] Zach Jaffe: Let's carry on. Let's go forward. Let's lead with empathy. Like, oh, you're upset about what somebody else did. Well, you know, I actually know that they're a new parent, or, like, they, uh, are having trouble with something else in their personal life, or they're having some health issue. I don't need to disclose that to somebody else. [00:52:22] Zach Jaffe: But I can say like, "Hey, you don't know what their situation is. Let's, let's be empathetic to them." So it, it's given me a lot more perspective and, and, and I've been told actually that it's made me a better manager, employee, director over time. And I, and I, and I believe that too [00:52:38] Adam Fishman: It, it sounds like it's fundamentally changed how you handle conflict too with like colleagues or people on your team or something like that. Just like being able to see the other side, and maybe understand it's not adversarial. Uh, don't know. Would you say that? [00:52:55] Zach Jaffe: Definitely. I mean, there's no such thing as a workplace that exists without conflict, right? That we live in a world where business is conflict, right? Like that is an inherent form of capitalism. Interpersonal relationships are conflict because people are people with their own perspectives and, and feelings and beliefs and background and experience, and people will approach things in different ways. [00:53:17] Zach Jaffe: So if you ever walk into a room and everyone agrees with you one hundred percent of the time, you're in the wrong room, right? Like so-some-something's gone wrong for you in that you've surrounded yourself with people who have no dissenting opinions. That doesn't mean they respect you, it means they fear you, right? [00:53:32] Zach Jaffe: Uh, and I know some people like that. Those people are called sociopathic narcissists, and I am not counting myself amongst that, that group of people. So if that is not a category in which you find yourself, then I think it's, uh, a skill that you will gain from being a parent and which is patience, right? [00:53:51] Adam Fishman: Ja. Ja [00:53:53] Zach Jaffe: in, professional life as well as the personal life [00:53:55] Adam Fishman: you told me, and this sort of builds off a lot of the other stuff we talked about. You told me attention is everything. What we pay attention to is who we are and not just what interests us. Can you help unpack that for me? What does that mean? [00:54:09] Zach Jaffe: It is the only thing that we have as conscious beings. You know, going-- this carries over to-- So this is something I learned from my meditation practice, right? What you pay attention to is you are what you eat, right? And in this case, what are you feeding your brain? [00:54:26] Zach Jaffe: So even if you're doing something fairly benign-- that feels benign, that is time that you are taking away from something else. We- there, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Like, let's get back to the, uh, you know, the economics of it. We pay for everything with our attention, whether it's scrolling on an app or watching a movie or reading a book or listening to a podcast or talking on a podcast or sending an email or playing with your child or talking to your spouse or making a cup of coffee. [00:54:59] Zach Jaffe: What you are paying attention to is dictated by what you want to pay attention to and how you want to spend your time. So if you can get that into your head All the extraneous stuff kind of starts to fall away because you're like, oh, it's like my grandfather used to tell a joke. It was a bad joke. He told it all the time. Constantly. Guy goes to the doctor and says, "Doc, hurts when I go like this." Raises his arm. And so the doctor says, "So don't do that." There's a lot of wisdom in that, [00:55:31] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:55:32] Zach Jaffe: right? Like, if something makes you uncomfortable or you don't like it, and it's something you're doing voluntarily. It's like somebody once told me, like, "Oh, you're not enjoying reading a book?" [00:55:42] Zach Jaffe: It's like, I just put it down. That's not your fault, it's the author's fault. [00:55:45] Zach Jaffe: They didn't grab you. [00:55:47] Adam Fishman: Ja [00:55:47] Zach Jaffe: That's it. You don't need to finish it. DNF that thing. [00:55:49] Zach Jaffe: what we pay attention to is, especially in a, in a messy world where a lot of stuff is being served to us algorithmically, choosing what you pay attention to can be more important. [00:55:59] Zach Jaffe: actually choosing what you don't pay attention to [00:56:02] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:56:03] Adam Fishman: What do you actively choose not to pay attention to in your life? And, and maybe also how's that changed since becoming a dad? [00:56:11] Zach Jaffe: Uh, well, I used to day trade quite a bit, uh, like in-- not intraday, but like open and close, which is neither parenting nor professional, you know, it's kind of, kind of a hobby. But like I don't check my portfolio every day now. You know, like I check it on weekly signals and monthly signals I have. Like when I get off the phone with you today, I've got an hour before close. [00:56:35] Zach Jaffe: I'll spend thirty minutes reading some signals. It's like, oh, here it is. I'm gonna look at here, make a couple moves, and I'm done. And I have really fallen off of any forms of mass media whatsoever. And this isn't necessarily because I like distrust the media or things like that, but we live in a, a time where you can find experts, good conversations like this. [00:57:04] Zach Jaffe: I think that podcasts are a remarkable medium for communication and of ideas in particular. And I try to put my money where my mouth is literally and pay for, I think, call it five to ten different podcasts like re-regularly and newsletters. I-- finding people on different parts of the ideological spectrum in business and technology and political economy, uh, and try to get a balanced perspective. [00:57:37] Zach Jaffe: And so what I don't pay attention to is really, you know, everything that I have not very specifically put into my life to enrich my mind, body, and soul, right? How can I become a better person? Well, I'm very intellectually curious, and so if something's not serving me, like I don't care about celebrity gossip. [00:58:00] Zach Jaffe: I am filled with music and movie knowledge that is extraneous, but that stuff interests me, right? So like I don't watch reality TV. I watch a lot of TV. I watch a lot of movies, and I have a severe podcast problem. [00:58:14] Adam Fishman: it sounds like-- I mean, well, so two things on that I would say. One, the, uh, the former Patreon employee in me would really appreci- it really appreciates hearing that, that you love to, [00:58:22] Zach Jaffe: Oh yeah, there's there's quite a-- There's, uh, [00:58:24] Zach Jaffe: we got a few payments that, that go through that channel, [00:58:27] Adam Fishman: I'm certain. I'm [00:58:28] Adam Fishman: certain of it. [00:58:29] Adam Fishman: It's a big podcasting platform. [00:58:31] Adam Fishman: but it sounds like what you are protecting with this particular media diet is, distraction. [00:58:37] Adam Fishman: You're focusing your attention on the stuff that you-- that matters, and you are, in some ways, like, tuning out some of the noise in favor of, like, focused information. And, and I like that you also added, like, "I have a diverse set of subscriptions. I don't-- I'm not just trying to live in an echo chamber, [00:58:57] Zach Jaffe: ja [00:58:58] Adam Fishman: I don't want all the cacophony of noise from other things," you know? [00:59:03] Adam Fishman: So I mean, like being on, and I'm gonna always call it Twitter, I'm sorry for ex-employees who might be [00:59:10] Zach Jaffe: listening. Be- yeah, yeah, be- being on Twitter every day trying to find out, like, every little thing that's gonna happen or might happen, listening to people like, "Oh, sell everything in the market because the crash is coming tomorrow." [00:59:25] Zach Jaffe: What is it? You know, like, economists have predicted 100 out of the last two recessions, [00:59:30] Zach Jaffe: right? [00:59:31] Zach Jaffe: Uh, or whatever, however the expression, expression goes. [00:59:34] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:59:35] Zach Jaffe: or, you know, like, "Oh, well, you know, this is what's gonna happen with the war." We'll just use the war, uh, writ broadly 'cause [00:59:41] Zach Jaffe: Yeah, which one Which one, right? [00:59:43] Zach Jaffe: And I am very news-oriented in that I would like to-- I'm curious about the world. However, I don't need to know about it on a minute-to-minute, moment-to-moment, hour-to-hour, day-to-day basis. If something happened, I can find out about it twenty-four hours later and be just fine. [01:00:02] Zach Jaffe: Did you see that thing?" "Oh, not yet. I'll probably see it soon." [01:00:06] Adam Fishman: Right. Right. [01:00:07] Zach Jaffe: But I have no urgency to see it [01:00:09] Adam Fishman: and that's why the idea of it being a media diet is interesting because like you also, I'm sure, like food, but you don't eat 24 hours a day, seven days a week. you You eat in-- You eat specific times and, and things and like, you know, the media has to kind of work the same way. [01:00:24] Zach Jaffe: Although I, I will, I will admit that because of my podcast problem, a, a confession that I must make is that as a s- somebody who's enjoyed solo video games, like one player video games his whole life, I don't want to sometimes just sit on my couch at night and just listen to a podcast to the end of the world. [01:00:41] Zach Jaffe: So I found like one player, like meaningless, like Hades or like, like roguelikes where I'll just basically play on mute, but I just need something to do while [01:00:50] Zach Jaffe: I'm just sitting there listening to four hours [01:00:52] Zach Jaffe: of podcasts. [01:00:53] Adam Fishman: I get it. Uh, some people play games. I fold laundry. That's, uh, one of my [01:00:58] Adam Fishman: strategies. yeah. [01:00:59] Adam Fishman: We're, we're coming up on time here, and I want to be respectful, but I did want to ask about a couple of frameworks that you have. I love talking about frameworks on this. so you mentioned the shared family calendar. [01:01:12] Adam Fishman: We don't have to talk about that one. I feel like that one's been litigated on this podcast a million times. It seems like it is a great strategy and a great framework to have. Like, have a shared calendar with your spouse so that y'all know what each other is up to and you can schedule on it. So, um, we don't have to say much more about that. [01:01:29] Adam Fishman: the one that I did want to talk about is I find really interesting, and I wanted to ask you how you navigate this, is, um, you told me that you share just enough of your family life with your colleagues that they know you value your family above all else, but you don't share so much that you become, quote-unquote, "The family guy with no other interests." [01:01:49] Adam Fishman: And so that's a very specific line to walk there. So like how do you do that? Because I feel like I've fallen into the latter trap there, which is like, I'm the family guy. Like, [01:02:00] Adam Fishman: that's what people think. I mean, I literally host a pod. I, I literally do. But, uh, but, um, what I'm interested in, because I've never heard anyone describe that, like sort of walking the line of sharing like that. [01:02:13] Adam Fishman: And so I'm just curious, like how did you develop that perspective and, and how do you, how do you do it? [01:02:17] Zach Jaffe: Well, I think it goes back to everything. Like, I, I want to be conscious of other people's like interests and desires, and like I know that when I was, non-parent, like if some-- all someone was talking about was their child, like f**king boring, I'm sorry. Like, like, nothing worse than it's like, "Oh, that's all you can talk about? [01:02:36] Zach Jaffe: Like, well, what, what else?" Like, "Well, I watch the show." I'm like, "Okay, well, what else?" Limit your hobbies, right? Like limit your hobbies. but also in the, the workplace, like making sure that people know, like at a certain time in the day, I will be off, [01:02:53] Adam Fishman: Yeah [01:02:54] Zach Jaffe: right? [01:02:54] Zach Jaffe: Like, uh, you know, I have a block on my calendar from five thirty, which is about the time I get home from the office if I'm not working from home, until eight o'clock, and that is family time. And if you want to talk to me during that time, well, that's too f**king bad. Like I, I-- You know what? If I need to do a little bit of work after eight until, uh, ten because there's a deal closing or I'm working on a project that I haven't quite finished, I'm happy to do that, but this time is mine. [01:03:23] Zach Jaffe: And obviously, there are occasional exceptions to that, but for the most part, that is a-almost unequivocally a line that I draw, and I think that's important for balance and from the perspective of, you know, being an interesting person, uh, like with interests and being able to like engage with people on a level that they might be at. [01:03:50] Zach Jaffe: Like, I have a lot of conversations with the new dads at my office, and there's a bunch, like very recent. And we talk about that stuff. I help guide them, you know, with whatever worthless advice I can give to people, opinions. But it-- I don't want it to... Like it's an important part of my life, the, the most important arguably, but that's not all I am as a person, and I want other people to, you know, be able to engage with me. [01:04:16] Zach Jaffe: I want to be able to reach people where they are, [01:04:18] Adam Fishman: couple more things. is framework related. [01:04:20] Adam Fishman: So before we hit record, you and I talked about how you and I got connected, [01:04:25] Adam Fishman: and, a parent friendship that you made, and I happen to have had that dad on the show, so shout out to Corey O'Daniel, uh, on that. [01:04:32] Adam Fishman: but [01:04:33] Adam Fishman: OD, uh, so I had another founder, this guy named Caleb Avery, he's the founder of a company called Tilled, uh, on the pod. the title of that episode was about how parent friendships are tricky. and you said something very similar to me, which is like having dad and mom friends who share your interests are super important, even when the kids are just like doing parallel play side by side. [01:04:57] Adam Fishman: You know, for folks who don't know, parallel play is like at a young age, probably the age of your daughter, like two kids will get together at the same age and they'll literally do, they'll play by themselves, but like next to each other. They won't actually [01:05:08] Adam Fishman: cross [01:05:09] Adam Fishman: over. [01:05:09] Zach Jaffe: to like two and a half, [01:05:10] Adam Fishman: and so like tell me about why this idea of like finding mom and dad friends who share your interests, are so, so important and why is that so difficult too? [01:05:22] Zach Jaffe: uh, we've only been talking for an hour or s-- and change, but I'm sure you can gather that I don't really have a problem meeting new people or making friends. [01:05:33] Adam Fishman: You mentioned extreme extrovert from birth. Same [01:05:37] Zach Jaffe: I acknowledge that that is not the case for most people. Like, I'm [01:05:41] Zach Jaffe: an outlier, [01:05:42] Zach Jaffe: and I know that conversations that I've had with other friends who've had kids are like, "How are the, the parents of the kids that you-- that your daughter goes to school with or daycare with?" "That's nice because, because at the end of the day, you can't really control who your kids are gonna be friends with, [01:06:00] Zach Jaffe: right? And, one of the funny realizations of becoming a parent is like, oh, all the terrible people I've ever met in my life and that you've met who become parents are still terrible people [01:06:13] Zach Jaffe: you're And you're gonna encounter them in this new scenario called child rearing and school, uh, and, and playgrounds, right? Uh, so trying to find those, uh, people who speak to you on a, on a personal and not just parenting level and if, and if you find them, hold on to them, right? Like that relationship as opposed to like, oh, we're just gonna, you know, hang out ourselves on the weekend. [01:06:43] Zach Jaffe: Like, even if they live thirty minutes further away, like, take the time to put in that face time together, because every little bit creates mutual, you know, affection and, and your kids get to grow up together and like, I'm going with the, uh, uh, with Cory, we're gonna see Bright Eyes at the Hollywood Bowl tomorrow night, right? [01:07:02] Zach Jaffe: Playing two, two hour of his classic albums back to back. Uh, so if you can find those interests, I think it, it makes it a little bit easier because then you can hang out while the kids are hanging out. [01:07:13] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [01:07:14] Zach Jaffe: So if you're, if you're an introvert, try a little bit [01:07:19] Adam Fishman: Right [01:07:22] Zach Jaffe: most people. [01:07:23] Zach Jaffe: Just put yourself out there a little bit more I think it'll pay dividends for you and your, and your child [01:07:28] Adam Fishman: shout out again to Corey for introducing the two of us. Thank you, Corey. Uh, have a great time at the Hollywood Bowl. Uh, I'm, I'm kind of jealous of that. Uh, [01:07:36] Zach Jaffe: a great place [01:07:37] Adam Fishman: I love love live music. Um, how can people follow along with you or be helpful to you right now? [01:07:43] Zach Jaffe: can follow me on the usual places. I'm usually sharing, uh, books and music on, uh, both Instagram and, LinkedIn on occasion. you can read some of the writing that I haven't gotten to in a while, uh, which are linked in both of those places. You'll get a little bit more in-depth about how I feel about some things. [01:08:01] Zach Jaffe: it's pretty cynical and, and funny. Uh, I've been told, and I do plan on publishing more soon. I mean, the, the title is, I write as WTF LOL Why? But because that's how I feel about most things. I la-- I go, "What the, what the f*ck?" And then I laugh, and then I go, "But, but why?" so that, that, that's a bit my philosophy on things. [01:08:19] Zach Jaffe: So if you wanna read something funny, uh, you can do that. Click, like, subscribe, you know, whatever, whatever [01:08:26] Zach Jaffe: that Yeah, yeah, [01:08:28] Zach Jaffe: yeah. [01:08:28] Zach Jaffe: I, I don't have a YouTube channel yet like you. Uh, maybe we'll sp-spin one off of the, the Startup Asshole podcast starring Zach. [01:08:35] Adam Fishman: You never, never, you know, never say never. It could happen. okay, cool. [01:08:40] Adam Fishman: Well, if you have a few minutes for lightning round, we got to do lightning round [01:08:41] Adam Fishman: so. Okay. Uh, what is the most indispensable parenting product you've ever purchased? [01:08:48] Zach Jaffe: The butt spatula [01:08:50] Adam Fishman: What is a butt spatula? [01:08:53] Zach Jaffe: it's literally a spatul- like a silicone spatula with a little, uh, suction cup on the end, and you use it for diaper cream. You don't get it on your hands. [01:09:01] Adam Fishman: Oh, okay. Okay. It's for applying the paste to the butt. [01:09:06] Zach Jaffe: For pu- the, the booty paste. Yeah. [01:09:08] Adam Fishman: Okay, Okay, cool [01:09:10] Zach Jaffe: it's like six dollars on Amazon at most. Get two of them, put one in your diaper bag and keep one at home. [01:09:15] Adam Fishman: I have never heard of the butt spatula before. This is-- I learned something new today. [01:09:18] Adam Fishman: Oh, I learned a lot of things new today, but this is [01:09:20] Zach Jaffe: that would be a great future sponsor for the podcast. The Startup Dad [01:09:24] Adam Fishman: Okay, cool. [01:09:25] Zach Jaffe: brought to you by Butt Spatula [01:09:27] Adam Fishman: thinking episode title, but hey, you know, uh, we'll see. [01:09:31] Zach Jaffe: yeah. H- do, do you-- Yeah, absolutely total. Do you use the butt spatula? [01:09:35] Adam Fishman: Yeah, question mark? Yeah. Um, okay, what's the most useless parenting product you've ever purchased? [01:09:40] Zach Jaffe: Oh my God, there's so many. I think we did a pretty good job of not falling into like the-- like if, if the algorithm finds out you're about to be a parent, you're about to get like, you know, if you don't have the six thousand dollar bassinet, like you're a bad parent and your child will die within twenty-four hours, right? [01:10:01] Zach Jaffe: Uh, or, or whatever it is, right? Like, so, it's hard to say we kept ourselves away from it, but like we've been... Oh, you know what? The most useless thing any parenting, parenting app is toys that make noise [01:10:13] Adam Fishman: Ah, yes. [01:10:15] Zach Jaffe: Anything someone-- Put that on your, like, you're having birthday parties, parenting gifts. [01:10:20] Adam Fishman: No [01:10:20] Zach Jaffe: Nothing that is electronic which makes noise. [01:10:25] Zach Jaffe: I will throw it out [01:10:26] Adam Fishman: Yes. Okay. Uh, what is the weirdest thing you've ever found in your daughter's pockets or in the washing machine? [01:10:35] Zach Jaffe: You know, she's pretty good about that, but she goes through clothes like quite aggressively. So I don't think we actually have her clothes long enough for her to have... The weirdest thing, holes, just constant holes in everything. Like, "Oh, had this for two weeks. I guess we've got to throw it out and [01:10:57] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Yep. Uh, true or false, there's only one correct way to load the dishwasher [01:11:02] Zach Jaffe: Neither. I don't use the dishwasher [01:11:05] Adam Fishman: Oh, are you a hand washer? Ah, okay. All right. All [01:11:10] Zach Jaffe: I listen to the Startup Dad [01:11:12] Adam Fishman: There you go. Great. It's a great use case for this pod. Uh, what is your signature dad superpower? [01:11:18] Zach Jaffe: Being real, real silly at all times. [01:11:21] Adam Fishman: Okay. [01:11:22] Zach Jaffe: Probably what I'm not supposed to be [01:11:24] Adam Fishman: What's the ideal way for you to spend time with your daughter right now? [01:11:28] Adam Fishman: if she had to describe you in one word, what would it be? [01:11:31] Zach Jaffe: Well, this week it's focused. Uh, so let's just go with that. [01:11:36] Adam Fishman: All right. Um, what is your go-to dad wardrobe? [01:11:40] Zach Jaffe: Dark clothing. No white, no light. Dark lightly. I come from the electronic music world, so having a dark wardrobe is quite easy for me. But, uh, just your light clothes, pants, khakis, put them in a box for like to eighteen months, [01:12:01] Adam Fishman: Yep. [01:12:01] Zach Jaffe: can take them out again [01:12:02] Adam Fishman: what is the most difficult kids TV show that you've had to sit through? [01:12:07] Zach Jaffe: Oh, definitely it was some sh*t that I, I was watching, I was watching all three of the kids. It was like some genie nonsense. Um, I, uh, something on Netflix. I, I don't even remember what it was. It was like cat genie power, you know? It was like, it was like candy. It was like, like, like, it was like, oh, it was like sugar, right? [01:12:25] Zach Jaffe: It's like I remember librarians used to say that like Goosebumps books were potato chips for your brain, right? Uh, like this is absolutely that. It's like I, I-- we, we show our daughter Miyazaki movies. That was, like the first movie she watched was My Neighbor Totoro, and it's like That's slow [01:12:41] Adam Fishman: a good one. [01:12:41] Zach Jaffe: That's slow [01:12:42] Adam Fishman: is that your favorite kids movie? That's my next question for you. What's your favorite kids movie? [01:12:47] Zach Jaffe: My-- Yeah. Well, it depends on what era, right? Like, Spirited Away is one of my favorite movies, but I'm not gonna show that to her yet because, like, the parents get lost and turn into pigs in the beginning, and it's super frightening for a child. But also, like, my dad shamed me into watching Alien when I was six. [01:13:03] Zach Jaffe: Uh, s- and, and I, I've grown up with, like, horror movies, uh, from older friends, and so, like, I'm so desensitized to that sort of thing. And I will try to, like, desensitize my daughter to some of that stuff just because I, I don't know, I don't want her to be like, "Oh, I'm scared of everything." Um, you know, I sp- somebody told me it's like anytime you watch something in a scary movie, just remember there's, like, a tent of snacks just off screen somewhere at craft services. [01:13:31] Zach Jaffe: Like, so even, like, when the monster's there, it's like, no, there's some granola bars and bananas just behind [01:13:35] Adam Fishman: What, nostalgic movie can you not wait to force her to watch with you when she's older? [01:13:40] Zach Jaffe: It's obviously Star Wars [01:13:42] Adam Fishman: Yes. Okay, good. Good, good. Lot of we get-- yeah. yeah. And will you watch it in that order? You do four, five, six, and then [01:13:49] Adam Fishman: the rest? Okay, [01:13:50] Zach Jaffe: definitely. Even though I know she's gonna be like, she's gonna like one, two, three better [01:13:55] Adam Fishman: Sure. [01:13:55] Zach Jaffe: they're kids movies. [01:13:56] Adam Fishman: Right. Um, what is the worst experience you've ever had assembling a kid's toy or a piece of furniture? [01:14:03] Zach Jaffe: You know, never really had too many like the, the kitchen, you know, that the play kitchen was pretty rough, but [01:14:10] Adam Fishman: A lot of pieces to that one [01:14:11] Zach Jaffe: She actually helped me turn her crib into like the, like the bed, like the convertible. Uh, so that was a positive experience. She was like holding the, you know, the little wrenches and tools for me. [01:14:22] Adam Fishman: Yeah [01:14:23] Zach Jaffe: so I, I had an extra pair of hands [01:14:25] Adam Fishman: Okay. And finally, perennial favorite question, what's your take on minivans? [01:14:30] Zach Jaffe: I mean, I drive a, a sensible family vehicle, a Honda CR-V, uh, hybrid. So I, I guess my take is they're fine. not exactly a minivan, but it's somewhere in between. And, and I will say, you know, like, one of the most cutting things that anyone has ever said on social media where it hit me super hard was, it's like, I think it was when Top Gun: Maverick came out, somebody had tweeted, it's like, "Goes to see Top Gun: Maverick. After movie, gets in sensible, uh, family Honda CR-V. Let's see what this baby can do." And I was like, "Oh, f*ck." That, that was totally me. They got me. Like, that is exactly what I did. So you know [01:15:06] Adam Fishman: awesome tweet. [01:15:08] Zach Jaffe: Yeah, I know. I was like, "Oh, oh, [01:15:11] Adam Fishman: Gut punch. [01:15:13] Zach Jaffe: Uh [01:15:15] Adam Fishman: Okay. Well, I would say lukewarm reception to minivans. but, but you know, yeah, they're [01:15:22] Zach Jaffe: it was my wife's first car was a minivan, [01:15:24] Adam Fishman: Okay, [01:15:24] Adam Fishman: cool. [01:15:25] Adam Fishman: Uh, well sir, Zach, thank you so much for joining me on "Startup Dad" today. It was, uh, an absolute pleasure having you on here. This was a really fun conversation, and I wish you and your daughter and your wife all the best. [01:15:40] Adam Fishman: And, uh, have a great, great rest of your week and year. Thank you. [01:15:44] Zach Jaffe: Enjoy the, the three-day weekend and the extra day parenting. [01:15:47] Zach Jaffe: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Zach Jaffe. You can subscribe and watch the show on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. [01:15:55] Adam Fishman: Visit www.startupdadpod.com to learn more and browse past episodes. Thanks for listening and see you next week