Latest / Story Magic / 87 - Can ambition be anti-hustle?

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87 - Can ambition be anti-hustle? · Story Magic

2:28
Emily: Hey, writers.
2:28
Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
2:32
Rachel: I'm Rachel.
2:33
Emily: And I'm Emily.
2:35
Rachel: And today we are talking about ambition and anti hustle.
2:42
Emily: I don't know.
2:44
Emily: I went all Halloween on.
2:46
Rachel: This is a special edition Halloween episode.
2:49
Emily: In January, February, whatever, coming out.
2:55
Rachel: Okay, so this topic.
2:58
Rachel: So we've been talking about anti hustle and touching on it in our last couple episodes because our big Reclaim the Magic event is coming up.
3:10
Rachel: And the Reclaim the Magic event is all about diving into your beliefs about productivity and, you know, the societal.
3:18
Rachel: The external pressures that have kind of sucked the joy out of your writing life and made it, like, impossible for you to show up.
3:25
Rachel: And one of those things is hustle culture.
3:27
Rachel: Hustle culture does it.
3:28
Rachel: We, like, talk about the bullshit of hustle culture on the podcast a lot.
3:33
Rachel: So if this probably isn't the first time you're hearing us talk about that, but today we're talking about ambition and hustle culture specific specifically because we have gotten this question before that, are they mutually exclusive things like, is it possible to be ambitious and anti hustle at the same time?
3:58
Rachel: Emily, what do you think?
3:59
Emily: Spoiler alert.
4:00
Emily: It's totally possible.
4:02
Emily: Yeah.
4:02
Emily: I feel like I was so resistant to truly ditching, like, I wanted.
4:09
Emily: I really.
4:09
Emily: Whenever I heard about hustle culture and how it was bad and capitalistic, like, all these things, I wanted to believe it, but I didn't actually, because growing up, right, I was taught that ambition equals hustle.
4:24
Emily: And I feel like I'm an ambitious person.
4:26
Emily: And I was like, well, if I want to achieve my goals, I'm going to have to hustle, you know?
4:28
Emily: And so, like, my brain couldn't comprehend the idea of, like, how ambition could be anti hustle, like, how that could possibly be a thing.
4:41
Emily: Because I think also, like, my brain.
4:44
Emily: My brain equated ambition with hustling, which meant anti ambition.
4:48
Emily: Anti anti hustle was, like, equated with laziness in my brain.
4:54
Emily: And I was like, that they have to be, you know, like, one is tied to the other.
4:59
Emily: You can't be ambitious without hustling.
5:01
Emily: And it took me a really long time to understand that that's not true.
5:07
Emily: But, like, it, like, what that really looks like, like, what does it really look like to, you know, if you're using the word hustle as not a cultural thing, but as just a verb, right?
5:23
Emily: Like, you do if you're ambitious and you want to work for something, like, sometimes you're gonna hustle a little Bit.
5:27
Rachel: Yeah.
5:27
Emily: Yeah. You know, and like, is that a bad thing?
5:29
Emily: Right.
5:30
Emily: My brain wanted to be like, well, if I'm anti hustle, then, like, working hard towards something is bad, right?
5:35
Emily: Yes.
5:35
Emily: Like, if we're trying to put good, bad labels on everything.
5:38
Emily: So I'm moving towards anti hustle living, that means I can't work really hard and I can't push really hard and I can't intentionally burn out, you know, Like.
5:45
Emily: Yeah, a little bit and like, all of those things.
5:48
Emily: So it's like, how.
5:49
Emily: What does it look like to be anti hustle and have these huge dreams?
5:54
Emily: Yeah.
5:55
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I think you've just identified like, the big conflation huge here.
6:00
Rachel: I think you've identified like, the, The.
6:02
Rachel: The overlap and misunderstanding of hustle culture, which is that, like the capital H, cash, capital C, hustle culture, which we know is a creativity killer, is like strangling our society is.
6:18
Rachel: Is really damaging to the writing process.
6:22
Rachel: And then hustle, the verb of, like, you're putting in some extra hours, you're working really hard.
6:27
Rachel: And I think people, when we're talking about the anti hustle writing life, think, well, that means, I know long, like, I shouldn't work hard.
6:37
Rachel: And again, here's the word should.
6:39
Rachel: But like, the belief.
6:41
Rachel: Well, anti hustle means stop working as hard to some degree.
6:46
Rachel: I'm going to tell that to people.
6:48
Rachel: Yeah.
6:49
Rachel: Like, to some.
6:50
Rachel: To some of my clients, I'm like, you need to stop working too hard.
6:53
Rachel: You are killing yourself.
6:55
Rachel: Like, you are running yourself into the ground.
6:56
Rachel: Stop it.
6:57
Rachel: But then there's like, no, there are times to work really hard and they don't.
7:02
Rachel: It's different.
7:03
Rachel: I think there's a. There's a line between big, like, capital H, hustle culture, and then, like, working hard.
7:11
Rachel: They're not.
7:12
Rachel: They're not the same thing.
7:14
Rachel: In no way are we saying in any of our materials, working hard is bad and you should stop.
7:23
Rachel: You should rest a lot more.
7:25
Emily: Yeah.
7:25
Rachel: Think that 100% blanket statement, you should rest more.
7:31
Rachel: But no, that doesn't mean that somehow, like, working hard is unaligned with this idea of anti hustle.
7:40
Emily: Yeah. And I feel like the.
7:41
Emily: So. So I feel like if I was to try to draw some deeper distinctions around this, to be like, okay, well, I want to work hard.
7:49
Emily: And like, does that mean I'm falling prey to hustle culture or does, you know, am I approaching this from an anti hust hustle standpoint?
7:56
Emily: I feel like.
7:57
Emily: And we're going to talk about this a lot in Reclaim the Magic in a Couple weeks.
8:00
Emily: But I feel like the difference comes down to why you're doing what you're doing and, like, where that's coming from.
8:10
Emily: Right, Because.
8:11
Emily: So hustle culture is based in this idea that you have to meet external expectations of productivity.
8:21
Emily: An external expectation, like what other people think you have to do.
8:25
Rachel: Right.
8:25
Emily: And achieve.
8:26
Emily: And like, the money you have to make in order to be worthy of love and safety and happiness.
8:32
Emily: Right.
8:33
Emily: Versus anti hustle says you're already worthy of love and safety and happiness.
8:38
Emily: And so the desire to hustle is coming from internal.
8:43
Emily: Right?
8:43
Emily: Internal expectations and desires.
8:45
Emily: Maybe desires is a better word.
8:47
Emily: Right. So it's an.
8:48
Emily: It's a hustle that's coming from inside versus, like, you're hustling because you feel like you have to for other, like, to be worthy of just basic human shit.
9:00
Emily: And so when you're.
9:04
Emily: I know we're super ambitious people, so, like, maybe we could share some stories.
9:10
Emily: I know I have one, but I'm curious if you have one as well, of like, a story, like, to illustrate the difference between, like, a time when you hustled because of hustle culture expectations and a time when you hustle because of, you know, anti hustle expectations.
9:24
Emily: I know that's confusing to use the word hustle, but I don't work hard.
9:27
Rachel: I guess I think work hard is where it.
9:32
Rachel: It comes down to, like, my personal verbiage.
9:36
Emily: Okay, let's use that.
9:37
Emily: We'll swap that in.
9:39
Rachel: So working hard, being, yet not participating in, like, hustle culture values.
9:48
Rachel: I feel like.
9:50
Rachel: I feel like the last three to four years are just the constant testament to this in me.
9:55
Rachel: And it started like, NaNoWriMo 2022.
10:02
Rachel: I mean, before that is what.
10:04
Rachel: That's like, the timing of this, where sometimes I talk about, like, what happened to me, where I was totally burnt out.
10:08
Rachel: I was like, I was burnt out like, the day my daughter was born because of hustle culture.
10:14
Rachel: And then, like, for the first two years of her life, like, before she.
10:17
Emily: Was born, the day you got packed in the day.
10:20
Rachel: I was burned out for, like the last seven years.
10:23
Rachel: But here, actually, this is a really good point.
10:25
Rachel: I worked in a startup that ended up becoming incredibly successful, that was making millions and millions of dollars.
10:33
Rachel: And that was also ended up, like, becoming very corporate and sold into the corporate world.
10:39
Rachel: So, like, right after college, I got a job at this startup.
10:43
Rachel: It was like my first.
10:44
Rachel: It wasn't my first, like, grownup job.
10:46
Rachel: I worked at the Apple store before that.
10:47
Rachel: And it was.
10:48
Rachel: I, you know, I. If people are going to yell at you all day and demand that you know their personal passwords.
10:53
Rachel: That's a grown up job.
10:55
Rachel: So like, anyway, when I worked at the startup, the entire culture was the harder you work, the more successful the company will be.
11:07
Rachel: And I don't know if I've ever told you this, but did I tell you how my compensation was set up at that time?
11:12
Emily: I don't think so.
11:14
Rachel: So when I worked there, I was hired at like a very reasonable entry level job salary, which was incredible for me because it was my first job.
11:23
Rachel: And then I worked there for about like nine or 10 months.
11:25
Rachel: And the company started becoming really, really popular.
11:28
Rachel: And then we hired someone and they became like the coo.
11:33
Rachel: They became like the, they were supposed to take us to like the next level of success.
11:38
Rachel: And they did.
11:38
Rachel: They were very good.
11:39
Rachel: They were very numbers based.
11:40
Rachel: They were very good, good at their job.
11:42
Rachel: So they came to me and one other person and we were kind of like the de facto leaders of our department.
11:47
Rachel: And we're like, for every million dollars that the company makes, we will raise your salary by $1,000.
11:57
Emily: Oh my gosh.
11:59
Rachel: I got like a $10,000 raise in like three months.
12:02
Emily: Oh my God.
12:03
Rachel: So it literally was that the more money I made for the company, I got a thousand dollar raise and not, not even a bonus, a raise.
12:14
Rachel: My income or, or like my yearly salary jumped really high, really fast.
12:21
Rachel: And like a lot of people were given that type of pricing or type of compensation set up where the harder you were, it really felt like the harder you worked for the company was directly related to how much they would pay us.
12:37
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
12:39
Rachel: And so this is going to start it to get really long anyway.
12:42
Rachel: So like this hustle culture just felt like so embedded in me from that, like from the time I was like 21 years old, making way too much money because, because of this.
12:57
Rachel: But I like worked my ass off for the company for a really, really long time.
13:01
Rachel: So anyway, yes, when I got pregnant, I was burnt out.
13:04
Rachel: Then I had a baby, then I was more burnt out.
13:06
Rachel: And then for those first two, then we started, you know, we started our company and I like, I knew I was trying to have a baby.
13:13
Rachel: Like we were trying when we started golden, maybe then I got pregnant shortly after or whatever.
13:21
Rachel: We were building the company and I was working at this other job and like everything was like, there are a thousand things to do and you have to do them all.
13:31
Rachel: And we worked really hard.
13:34
Rachel: Like we had that attitude.
13:36
Emily: Yeah, we totally did.
13:37
Emily: We totally did.
13:38
Emily: I mean, it's the more blog posts, the more emails, the more, the more, the more, the more we do exact same thing.
13:45
Rachel: And I, I think I carried.
13:47
Rachel: I know, I know I carried the behaviors over because I had already been taught the harder you work, the more money you make.
13:54
Rachel: Like, that was just a, like, straight up belief that I had because it had been proven so often.
14:00
Rachel: So then when we started working, I know you held similar beliefs, but, like, the harder we worked, the more money we made.
14:05
Rachel: Like, that was directly proportional.
14:07
Rachel: When you start a company, sometimes that's how it goes.
14:11
Rachel: So I've now started two companies.
14:13
Rachel: I didn't start my last company, but I was the third employee.
14:16
Rachel: So, like, it really felt like being part of a company at that ground level, to make money, you have to work really, really hard.
14:22
Rachel: Anyway, so in 2022 is when, like, it all fell apart and I was like, there's no way that I could keep behaving like this.
14:30
Rachel: And I felt like I had to peel back all the layers of what I cared about and what I expected of myself.
14:36
Rachel: And I still found that at, like, the core identity that I held.
14:41
Rachel: I was a hard worker, period.
14:43
Rachel: You know, like, you have those, those beliefs about yourself, like, I am a hard worker.
14:47
Rachel: Cool. I like that about myself.
14:50
Rachel: I don't have any negative attachments to that, but the behaviors that were resulting from that were unhealthy behaviors.
14:58
Rachel: So that's where I started to think, like, do I have to let go of how hard I want to work to heal and like, to figure out what.
15:12
Rachel: What do I expect of myself?
15:12
Rachel: And, like, what do I want to live like, and, like, for a, for a period of time?
15:16
Rachel: The answer to that was yes, because I was in such a state of burnout that, like, I could not keep working as hard and also heal at the same time.
15:29
Rachel: So we did.
15:30
Rachel: I, like, I did feel like I had to stop working as hard, but that didn't change my identity as, like, a hard worker.
15:36
Rachel: So that was part of what I, like, went through an identity crisis for a little bit.
15:39
Rachel: I feel like I was also, like, am I a writer if I don't write?
15:42
Rachel: Like, I had a little writing identity crisis.
15:45
Rachel: I had to figure out, like, where rest fit in the midst of all of this.
15:50
Rachel: This is probably a lot longer of a story than you were.
15:52
Emily: It's fine.
15:54
Emily: I'm so in it.
15:57
Rachel: But, like, then I came out.
15:59
Rachel: I feel like once I started to come out of burnout, I started to feel like, okay, I know that I like working hard.
16:05
Rachel: And it also is like a natural behavior of mine and a tendency of mine.
16:09
Rachel: But that doesn't mean that I need to be working so hard that I put myself back in that same hole.
16:20
Rachel: So that's where, like, all the change of belief happened.
16:23
Rachel: Of, like, I don't have.
16:24
Rachel: My value is not tied to this.
16:26
Rachel: I can just work hard because I like working hard.
16:28
Rachel: And sometimes I don't like working hard.
16:31
Rachel: I also want to put a big old asterisk on that.
16:35
Rachel: I really don't.
16:36
Rachel: I am.
16:37
Rachel: I don't like working hard sometimes I don't like working hard at things that I don't find interesting.
16:42
Rachel: So it's really hard for me to, like, do tasks that don't stimulate me.
16:50
Rachel: So I don't work hard at many things.
16:53
Rachel: I work hard at the things I care about.
16:56
Emily: Love that.
16:58
Rachel: Just to be real.
16:59
Rachel: Just to be real with everyone.
17:01
Rachel: And it's not like I'm out here friendly.
17:03
Emily: That's the thing, right?
17:03
Emily: You're not.
17:05
Emily: You're not like, working really hard to fulfill other people's expectations of what you should be working hard at.
17:11
Emily: Right?
17:11
Emily: You work hard at the things that you love to work hard at.
17:14
Rachel: Yes.
17:15
Emily: Like, that's the.
17:16
Emily: I feel like that's the difference.
17:17
Emily: Right?
17:17
Emily: It's.
17:19
Emily: That's the shift.
17:22
Rachel: Yeah.
17:22
Emily: Yeah. It's so interesting hearing you talk about the tech experience because we came from very different backgrounds.
17:28
Emily: I came.
17:29
Emily: You came from corporate.
17:30
Emily: I came from nonprofit.
17:32
Emily: And you would think that they would be different, right?
17:34
Emily: Nonprofit, you don't make a profit, Right.
17:36
Emily: It's not about that money, but it's.
17:38
Emily: It's the.
17:39
Emily: There's a whole different, like, moral principle aspect to it of, like, you're not, like, you don't go into work in a nonprofit or be a teacher.
17:50
Emily: Right.
17:50
Emily: Because you want to continue to make more and more money every month.
17:53
Emily: Right.
17:54
Emily: But what you're trying to do is you're trying to see a difference in the world, right?
17:58
Emily: In your students or in, you know, whatever cause your nonprofit is working towards.
18:03
Emily: And so that's the measurement by which.
18:06
Emily: And it's like, it's so toxic because now I'm tying myself to this external output of, like, making the world a better place.
18:14
Emily: Right?
18:14
Emily: And so I'm only worthy if I'm improving the lives of other people or I'm improving the state of the planet.
18:21
Emily: Right?
18:21
Emily: And so it's like it was the same thing.
18:23
Emily: Like, there's this.
18:24
Emily: I think there's a super toxic mindset in nonprofits where it's like, you have to give up everything about yourself for the Cause that you work for or for your students or for whatever it is, the people that you care for.
18:37
Emily: Right.
18:37
Emily: If you're in some kind of healthcare or whatever, like you, you must give up everything, because otherwise you are a selfish person.
18:43
Emily: Like, you could make a difference in the world.
18:44
Emily: You're getting paid to make a difference in the world.
18:47
Emily: Like, how dare you take time for yourself?
18:47
Emily: Or how dare you slow down?
18:50
Emily: Or how dare you.
18:50
Emily: You know, like all of that.
18:52
Emily: So it's just as toxic.
18:53
Emily: It's. This idea must put in more effort in order to have, you know, make a change and.
18:59
Emily: Or make money or whatever.
19:01
Emily: And it's just not true.
19:02
Emily: Like, sometimes doing less actually has a greater impact.
19:05
Emily: And we'll talk about that.
19:07
Emily: Yeah, I mean, that's playing the magic.
19:09
Emily: Yeah, it's 100% true.
19:11
Rachel: It's true.
19:12
Rachel: I mean, that's.
19:12
Rachel: That was the experiment.
19:13
Rachel: So we did a. We did a podcast which is going to come out in a couple of days from when we're recording this and we'll share it.
19:20
Rachel: But we were guests on a lovely.
19:21
Rachel: The Always Right podcast, and it was wonderful to be a guest on that podcast.
19:25
Rachel: And like, the.
19:26
Rachel: At that time, I was running so many, like, mental experiments in my own head to prove it.
19:32
Rachel: To prove it to myself that, like, no, if I injected way more rest, would I still complete the same amount of things?
19:37
Rachel: Yeah, I did.
19:40
Rachel: And then, like, I had to te.
19:42
Rachel: I had to test it and it proved true time and time again.
19:46
Emily: Yeah, I was always like, I feel like I had the seeds of, like, yearning for anti hustle back in my nonprofit days.
19:52
Emily: And the way people would look at me because I took a lunch break or like, all this stuff, it's just.
19:58
Emily: It's crazy.
19:58
Emily: But, like, you.
19:59
Emily: If you burn yourself out, you can't do anything.
20:01
Emily: You can't make any money.
20:02
Emily: You can't make a difference.
20:03
Emily: You can't, like, write your stories if you're exhausted.
20:06
Emily: Like, that doesn't.
20:07
Emily: The equation falls apart.
20:09
Emily: So your turn, your story, my story.
20:13
Emily: Continue.
20:13
Emily: Continuation.
20:14
Emily: So I'll skip a bunch of time.
20:17
Rachel: I went back to my early 20s.
20:20
Rachel: It all started when.
20:22
Rachel: And I didn't even get to school.
20:25
Rachel: I should have gone back to grade.
20:26
Emily: I could go all the way back to my parents.
20:28
Rachel: I should have got back to the day when I got kicked up to third grade because I was busy writing, drawing mermaid boobs.
20:36
Rachel: So if you've never heard that episode.
20:38
Emily: Of the podcast, go find it.
20:41
Rachel: Go find that.
20:42
Rachel: When I told that story, it all started in.
20:45
Emily: Honestly, I feel like that Was your origin story.
20:48
Emily: Everything about.
20:49
Emily: Everything about who you are as a person.
20:51
Rachel: 100% started.
20:53
Rachel: Started right there.
20:54
Rachel: Yep.
20:57
Emily: So, yeah, smart.
20:58
Rachel: For this, I just need mermaid boobs.
21:00
Emily: Just.
21:03
Rachel: I should have been an artist.
21:05
Rachel: Look what happened to me.
21:08
Emily: We can just.
21:09
Emily: We can just make Leona a mermaid.
21:10
Rachel: I know.
21:11
Emily: Let in the Water fanfic.
21:12
Rachel: Let in the water.
21:15
Rachel: I need, like, an underground mermaid mafia.
21:19
Rachel: Like, we're in the illegal fish trade.
21:25
Emily: I need it.
21:29
Rachel: If someone wants to write that fanfic, you're more than welcome to send it to me.
21:35
Emily: Okay.
21:36
Rachel: Like, anybody's reading, listening to this being, like, anyway, you were going to tell the story.
21:42
Emily: Yeah. So the reason that I was thinking about this podcast today is because this fall, I.
21:51
Emily: I was in a scenario where I was asked to revise my entire first draft for my publisher to do an entire developmental edit in three weeks and a line edit in one.
22:03
Rachel: Yeah.
22:03
Emily: All in the six weeks before the year was over.
22:07
Rachel: Yeah.
22:07
Emily: And I've been thinking a lot about it because I did it and I didn't hate it and I didn't burn out.
22:17
Emily: That was the.
22:18
Emily: That was kind of the kicker.
22:19
Emily: Like, I'm realizing now that we're in January.
22:21
Emily: Right.
22:21
Emily: I turned it in on December 22nd.
22:23
Emily: We're in January now.
22:24
Emily: I was sick for, like, most of the beginning of January.
22:27
Rachel: Yeah.
22:28
Emily: And so I had this, like, fear that I'm going to be so burnt out and I'm not.
22:32
Emily: Like, it's shockingly to my.
22:34
Emily: Like, I'm utterly surprised that I'm burned out.
22:37
Emily: And so I've been thinking, well, what.
22:38
Emily: What.
22:39
Rachel: How.
22:39
Emily: How do I replicate this?
22:39
Emily: Right?
22:41
Emily: Like, how I worked so hard on this revision that I'm really proud of.
22:45
Emily: And you know what was different?
22:45
Emily: Because I've worked really hard on revisions before.
22:48
Emily: Like, if we think back to when I was.
22:51
Emily: When I was pregnant and my goal was to finish my revision for my agent to go on sub before my daughter was born, I definitely was not quite there.
23:00
Emily: Like, I had come.
23:01
Emily: I had come.
23:02
Emily: And I think this is important to note, right?
23:02
Emily: Like, Anti Hustle doesn't happen overnight.
23:06
Emily: It's a process.
23:06
Emily: And so, like, I had been learning a lot about Anti Hustle, and I thought I was approaching it from an Anti Hustle standpoint, but I don't think I was quite there.
23:13
Emily: Whereas this time, it feels like, in retrospect, like, I can look back and instead of being like, oh, in retrospect, I really was hustling.
23:19
Emily: Right.
23:20
Emily: In retrospect, I can be like, oh, yeah, like, something about it worked this time.
23:23
Emily: And so I've been trying to think about what that is and I really think it comes down to like self love.
23:29
Rachel: Yeah.
23:31
Emily: Because when I.
23:33
Emily: Because all of my reasons for everything were based in self love.
23:37
Emily: So when I got that email from my editor, I was like, part of me was like, it was so absurd of a request that I was like, I don't have to say yes.
23:46
Emily: Like there was part of my mind that was like, it's so reasonable to be like, absolutely not.
23:50
Emily: Yeah.
23:51
Emily: So I think that helped give me a little bit of that permission.
23:53
Emily: Right.
23:54
Emily: Because you know, we're all steeped in this stuff and sometimes that's helpful.
23:57
Emily: So like I was able to give myself that permission and then I was like, well, what if I could do it?
24:01
Emily: And so then it came from a place of curiosity, like, what am I capable of?
24:05
Emily: Right.
24:05
Emily: And that I think comes from a self love standpoint, or at least it did this time of like, can I revise a novel in three weeks?
24:13
Emily: I have no idea.
24:15
Emily: And so when I set out to do it, I kind of had these guidelines for myself where I was like, okay, this is going to be really hard on me and it's going to be really tight on my family.
24:24
Emily: Right. So my guidelines were.
24:26
Emily: And it's.
24:26
Emily: My daughter is one, she's in daycare for the first time this year and we have been sick so much.
24:31
Rachel: Yeah.
24:32
Emily: So my guidelines were if I feel like the.
24:35
Emily: I'm not doing the book justice, like if I don't like the book yet, then I'm going to get an extension.
24:41
Rachel: Yeah.
24:41
Emily: If I start feeling like I'm going crazy and I'm burning out and I'm not enjoying it, then I, then I'm going to stop.
24:48
Emily: If my husband starts to lose his mind, I'm asking too much of him, then I'm going to stop.
24:53
Emily: And if my daughter gets sick, even like one day, we're done.
24:57
Emily: Like I'm asking for an extension.
24:58
Emily: So I had these boundaries where I was like, this is curiosity.
25:01
Emily: It's an experiment for me.
25:02
Emily: I want to do it.
25:03
Emily: I want to see if I can do it because I want to know what I'm capable of.
25:05
Emily: But like, I'm not willing to sacrifice like any of these things for some external validation from my publisher, like, whatever.
25:13
Emily: If I don't make it, I don't make it and I'm not going to worry about it.
25:15
Emily: And I truly felt that.
25:18
Emily: And so then like somehow we didn't get sick and my husband didn't go insane and like we Made it.
25:22
Emily: And I don't know how it happened.
25:24
Rachel: But all that sickness for post, I did, I did.
25:29
Emily: I immediately.
25:31
Emily: The day after, the day after I turned it in, my father came and visited with the flu, but I didn't oftentimes that's the first sign of hustle, right.
25:40
Emily: When you push really hard for a goal and then your body breaks down.
25:43
Rachel: Yes.
25:44
Emily: My body did not break down until my father gave me the flu.
25:49
Emily: But I do, I feel like that it's a, it's a feeling of like, where is it coming from?
25:53
Emily: Like, if there is this anxiety to like fulfill.
25:56
Emily: Cough.
25:56
Emily: Cough my agent's expectations.
25:58
Emily: Right.
25:59
Emily: Or fulfill a publisher's expectations or just the world's, you know, general world's expectations.
26:04
Emily: Right.
26:05
Emily: Of like, this is what a writer must do.
26:07
Emily: Gives this anxiety, this feeling of like, that you're not worthy until you achieve the goal and like all this stuff and you don't really feel comfortable pushing it.
26:15
Emily: And this was the first time in my life where I was like, yeah, if I have to push this deadline, I will have zero feelings about it.
26:21
Emily: None whatsoever.
26:23
Emily: And that just felt really good.
26:25
Emily: So I just wanted to like, be proud of myself for a second.
26:28
Emily: But I do, but I think it's important because that's, that's what we're talking about when we're talking about hustle versus anti hustle is not how hard you're working, it's who you're working for.
26:39
Rachel: Yes. Yeah. Huh. Exactly.
26:42
Rachel: And like the goals that you're setting, knowing that they are flexible or knowing that like, it is not the end of the world if you don't reach them or you're like.
26:54
Rachel: Because I think when I first wanted to like, publish a book, it was, it was important to me, but also I wanted it to be like a sign, you know, I wanted it to be like, look, everybody, I published a book.
27:10
Rachel: Woohoo. And like, I still think that, I mean, obviously still wanted to publish a book because that's amazing.
27:16
Rachel: And it's my dream.
27:16
Rachel: And like, I love reading and writing, et cetera, et cetera.
27:19
Rachel: But I think the, the reason that you have, whatever goal that you have matters and like the, the factors that go into that.
27:29
Rachel: Because with this last period that you had of, of working really, really hard, if you didn't reach that goal, you also weren't going to suddenly believe that you're a piece of.
27:38
Rachel: Yeah, right.
27:40
Rachel: Like you weren't suddenly going to think I'm worthless because I have to ask for an extension.
27:46
Emily: Yeah.
27:46
Rachel: And that's, that's the core of anti hustle.
27:48
Rachel: Because hustle tells you that your value only comes from how much you can produce or, you know, what you accomplish.
27:55
Rachel: And, like, working hard is not the same as believing that, you know?
28:00
Rachel: You know, we work hard because we want to do things for ourselves.
28:04
Rachel: And if we end up not hitting whatever the goal is or whatever the reason is that we're working hard, you know, the.
28:12
Rachel: If there is an end date, not hitting the end date, then that is an anti hustle.
28:20
Rachel: It's okay.
28:21
Rachel: It's gonna be fine.
28:22
Rachel: But in hustle culture, you've failed.
28:25
Rachel: Yeah, you're.
28:26
Rachel: You're.
28:26
Rachel: You're less than.
28:27
Rachel: You failed.
28:28
Rachel: You're never gonna measure up.
28:29
Rachel: Then you start comparing yourself to others.
28:31
Rachel: Then you start.
28:31
Rachel: It just starts the shame spiral.
28:33
Rachel: And like I. I said earlier about, like, identity, like, I. Part of who I believe I am is a hard worker, but I also don't believe that my value comes from that, you know, Like, I'm not tying my identity as a hard worker to, like, how much I love myself.
28:49
Rachel: I love myself regardless of that.
28:52
Rachel: And that's different for me.
28:53
Rachel: That's really different than it was, like, two or three years ago or 10 years ago when I worked at this other company of, like.
29:01
Rachel: No, I still love myself.
29:04
Rachel: I just really like writing books.
29:06
Emily: Yeah. It's so fun.
29:08
Emily: I love getting.
29:09
Emily: I had so much fun just being totally lost in my book.
29:12
Emily: I don't know if my husband did, but we made it.
29:16
Rachel: Yeah. So when we were thinking about this earlier, I had this anecdote I wanted.
29:25
Rachel: I know you don't watch the Office.
29:27
Emily: I don't.
29:28
Emily: Sorry.
29:28
Emily: I'm gonna tell you.
29:30
Emily: Please.
29:30
Emily: Rachel comes at me all the time for it.
29:32
Emily: You don't.
29:32
Rachel: I certainly do.
29:34
Rachel: Because I don't understand how you cannot.
29:36
Rachel: It. No, but it's fine.
29:37
Rachel: But I'm.
29:38
Rachel: I'm going to tell you an office story.
29:39
Emily: Okay.
29:40
Rachel: And it ties into, I think, anti hustle, hardworking, like, really well.
29:47
Rachel: So just hold on.
29:49
Rachel: I've got a point is what I'm about to say.
29:51
Emily: All right, let's get there.
29:52
Rachel: So everyone has watched the Office in the last season.
29:56
Rachel: In season nine, Jim and Pam, their marriage is, like, kind of on the rocks.
30:02
Rachel: And throughout the whole show, they've been shown as, like, super, incredibly supportive of one another.
30:07
Rachel: Like, Jim and PAM are the OTP.
30:10
Rachel: Like, we love them, they're perfect, etc. In the last season, there's a subplot introduced that, like, they are potentially moving for divorce.
30:20
Rachel: And the reason that this really kicks off is that Jim takes a job in Philadelphia basically without telling Pam because he's afraid that she will say no. And she's kind of already said no.
30:35
Rachel: And he does it anyway and he takes, it's basically his dream job to work this job in Philadelphia.
30:42
Rachel: But Pam doesn't want to move, she wants to stay in Scranton.
30:46
Rachel: And so there's this conflict the whole season of like them not communicating basically, and their communication issues like get really bad and they end up like going to marriage counseling.
31:00
Rachel: And before they, they decide they're going to go to marriage counseling and they're kind of talking to, you know, their friends about it.
31:07
Rachel: And Jim ends up talking to Toby, who's the HR rep, and he's explaining to Toby, like, if she could just hold on, like this would be so good for our family if she can just put up with it like a little bit longer.
31:20
Rachel: I know it's really hard that I'm working in Scranton or I'm working in Philadelphia and she's here in Scranton with two kids.
31:25
Rachel: I know it's really hard, but if she can just hold on, it'll be really good.
31:29
Rachel: And Toby says back to him, like, well, what does that mean?
31:33
Rachel: How long?
31:33
Rachel: Like how long?
31:35
Rachel: And he's like, well, I don't know, until it's, until it's ready.
31:39
Rachel: And Toby's like, well, it must be really hard to sign on to be unhappy for if you don't know how long it's going to last.
31:50
Rachel: And Jim kind of has this thought of like, oh, and the, the message of this conversation is like he's asking her to put up with this without giving her any end date.
32:03
Rachel: And it's how do you sign on to be unhappy for no end date?
32:07
Rachel: No. When I was thinking, when this popped into my head earlier, I was thinking about it in an anti hustle or ambitious kind of vain because I think people that get into the hustle culture, like mindset end up working so hard with no end date and like working so hard with these beliefs that like drive them into burnout with like no expectation of when it's going to be over or, or that expectation continues to move.
32:38
Rachel: You know, like they set a goal and it's not enough, so they change the goal and then they reach that goal and it's not enough, so they change it and it just is like this feeling of unhappiness for so long with no end date.
32:48
Rachel: But I think like when the last couple times that I've like taken on this sprint of like, I'm going to finish this draft, or you're going to finish your revision.
32:57
Rachel: Like, there was an end date in mind, and.
33:00
Rachel: And like, that, I think, was different.
33:03
Rachel: A different way of looking at my goals, too.
33:06
Rachel: Of, like, I'm not just working hard forever because it.
33:11
Rachel: It's what you do, you know, it's what society tells us.
33:15
Rachel: Like, I have a project.
33:16
Rachel: I have a goal, and I'm gonna see if I can hit it.
33:19
Rachel: If I don't hit it, I'll keep trying.
33:21
Rachel: But, like, that has kind of changed my perspective as far as, like, what I'm hustling toward, because I know I'm gonna finish this draft, and it's gonna be done.
33:30
Rachel: Okay.
33:31
Rachel: Then I'll. Then I will rest.
33:32
Rachel: Like, I keep having very firm deadlines.
33:36
Emily: And you have my own.
33:38
Rachel: Yeah, like that.
33:39
Rachel: But that's what I'm saying is, like, when you get in.
33:40
Rachel: When you get in the.
33:41
Rachel: I'm signing up with no end date.
33:43
Rachel: There's no rest.
33:45
Rachel: Yeah, there's no rest.
33:46
Emily: Well, but even, like.
33:48
Emily: Because.
33:48
Emily: Because if we're talking about goal setting.
33:50
Emily: Right.
33:50
Emily: So, like, theoretically, there's an end date, but oftentimes people don't treat it like an end date.
33:54
Rachel: No.
33:55
Emily: And, like, fully recuperate.
33:57
Emily: And I feel like that's one of the hustle mistakes.
33:59
Emily: Not mistakes, but, like, miscalculations that I made when I did this.
34:04
Emily: When I signed up to do this revision right in.
34:07
Emily: Because I was signing up basically to have, like, no. No wiggle room in my life for, like, six weeks.
34:13
Emily: So I said no to all my.
34:14
Emily: Like, I. I wasn't seeing my friends.
34:16
Emily: I was.
34:17
Emily: You know, I was hanging out with my kid, but, like, not as much as I wanted to be.
34:20
Emily: Right.
34:20
Emily: I wasn't, like, hanging out with my husband.
34:22
Emily: So there were, like, all these things that I was like, okay, in six weeks, I'm gonna.
34:25
Emily: This is gonna be done.
34:26
Emily: And, like, then I'm gonna rest real hard, and I'm gonna do all these things.
34:29
Emily: Well, my hustle brain was like, we're gonna do all these things in the first week of January when your daughter is home from school.
34:36
Emily: You're gonna see all your friends.
34:38
Emily: You're gonna hang out with your daughter.
34:39
Emily: You're gonna rest.
34:40
Emily: You're gonna read all these books, right?
34:41
Emily: I had, like, all these goals, and then I had the flu that whole week, and I had to recalculate, like a.
34:47
Emily: It's not.
34:48
Emily: It's not okay to hustle and, like, give up everything that you love about your life other than writing for, like, one week of, you know, Rest and play.
34:58
Emily: Like, that's not, that's not the way to look at it.
35:01
Emily: And it also like made me think like, okay, now instead of setting an end date to my rest, like I'm gonna rest until I.
35:07
Emily: Right. Like I'm not gonna pick up the next project until I really, truly feel like I'm there.
35:11
Emily: Because it's really hard to know how long you're gonna have to rest after you push.
35:15
Rachel: Yeah.
35:16
Emily: Like you just, maybe you, maybe you learn over time, but I just feel like every project, every deadline that I have, like, it always takes more rest to get back on my feet afterwards than I expected to.
35:29
Rachel: Yeah. So, Yeah, I, I 100% agree.
35:32
Rachel: And like, I still think like to put this into like a daily, a daily view for me.
35:43
Rachel: I have like 10 book ideas that I want to publish that are within like the shadows world.
35:49
Rachel: Right.
35:49
Rachel: Like I want to.
35:50
Rachel: Leona's book is force.
35:52
Rachel: Leona series is four books.
35:54
Rachel: And then I've got like a bunch of other characters that I'm, I'm going to do them all.
35:58
Rachel: Okay.
35:59
Rachel: So it's gonna happen.
36:02
Rachel: Probably.
36:03
Rachel: I want it to happen.
36:05
Rachel: That's ambitious.
36:06
Rachel: I feel like I have 10 books that I want to publish in the next three to five years.
36:10
Rachel: I feel like that's pretty ambitious.
36:12
Rachel: Right.
36:14
Rachel: But to me, like, I'm only living one day at a time.
36:20
Rachel: And I wrote this on my Instagram last week or the week before where it was like, I also had to take a really big break over the holidays.
36:27
Rachel: Cause I also got really sick and I didn't.
36:30
Rachel: Not only did I not have the desire to write, I also tried really hard not to feel bad about it.
36:35
Rachel: But it did impact like how quickly I thought I was able to complete like this draft.
36:42
Rachel: Yeah. So it kind of pushed back my, my goals a little bit.
36:45
Rachel: Totally fine.
36:46
Rachel: But as I was writing on my Instagram like last week, you're living in every day and like you have to trust in like the micro of your life that showing up will accomplish things.
37:00
Rachel: And then in the macro, like you'll see the progress happen.
37:04
Rachel: But it's like the day to day where the, where you just have to trust in yourself that showing up leads to that progress and showing up in the, in the like healthiest way for you.
37:18
Rachel: Taking rest days when you need that.
37:19
Rachel: Like that's what I mean is not just showing up to do the thing, but also like, if I take a rest day today, tomorrow doesn't mean it's a rest.
37:26
Rachel: Like, it doesn't mean that I've Lost everything, you know, like, so I, I started to think a lot in terms of like, the daily micro things that I do every day.
37:37
Rachel: I trust they'll add up and I'll get those things done.
37:41
Rachel: I'm just looking at, like, what am I able to accomplish today?
37:44
Rachel: And if it's nothing besides rest, because rest is something great, that's fine.
37:50
Rachel: Tomorrow's a different day and the progress still comes and I still will get 10 books published.
37:58
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
37:59
Emily: That's one of the things I've been thinking about too.
38:01
Emily: Like, so the way that my brain works, I work so much more.
38:06
Emily: I mean, efficiently is the best word I can come up with.
38:08
Emily: But like, efficiently, joyfully, like, everything about it is better when I'm like, all in on something.
38:13
Emily: And so I have a hard time doing a lot of different things in one day.
38:17
Emily: But my brain expects me to be able to do that because society, I think, hustle culture likes to tell you that you should be able to like, make progress on everything every day and that you should be able to multitask and like all these things.
38:27
Emily: I cannot multitask to save my life.
38:30
Emily: Like, I have to be all in on something.
38:31
Emily: So what that has looked like is like last, I think it was Tuesday last week.
38:35
Emily: All I did was like, obsess about my news story.
38:38
Emily: And then at the end of the day I was like, oh my God, I didn't do any Golden May work.
38:41
Emily: Like, I didn't do any client work, I didn't do any emails, I didn't do any marketing, right?
38:44
Emily: And I started to spiral.
38:46
Emily: And then the next day, all I did was Golden May work, right?
38:50
Emily: And then I was like.
38:51
Emily: And then I was like, oh my God, I didn't make any writing, I didn't work on my story, right?
38:52
Emily: And so, like, I'm working.
38:56
Emily: One of the things I'm actively doing is trying to be like that.
38:59
Emily: Like, just because something today doesn't mean like, you didn't make progress on it yesterday or you won't make progress on it tomorrow.
39:05
Emily: And like, we just put too many, like that expectation, right?
39:08
Emily: That's a hustle culture expectation, that I should make progress on everything every day, Right?
39:11
Emily: Bullshit.
39:12
Emily: It's bullshit.
39:13
Emily: That doesn't.
39:14
Emily: I can achieve my dreams without doing that.
39:16
Rachel: Exactly. And like, I love that because I think it's so unique to how each person works.
39:22
Rachel: But I think that experience is like, when people embrace anti hustle, I think that's a very normal experience.
39:30
Rachel: But I think when you're taught to how to break down writing A book into pieces.
39:36
Rachel: It looks like doing a certain amount every single day.
39:39
Rachel: And for most of us it's just not feasible to do that.
39:42
Rachel: Nor, nor do I think really should it be.
39:44
Rachel: Because, you know, you take a 90,000 word book and if you write thousand words a day, you can write that in 90 days.
39:51
Rachel: And that's like the advice.
39:53
Rachel: Yeah, Tm like, that's the writing advice.
39:55
Rachel: Common advice, like, or, you know, I've.
39:58
Rachel: I've had clients before who have taken like a project and given themselves something to do on every single day of the whole project.
40:08
Rachel: And if you do all those things, yes, it works, but it's so inhuman.
40:13
Rachel: Like the human life is that you don't feel like doing it or you're sick or your child is home from school, or, you know, you were making dinner and it burned and now like, you have to go do something else.
40:25
Rachel: You have to make a whole.
40:26
Rachel: Like there's so many different variables that having an expectation of how it should be just never works.
40:35
Rachel: I mean, who's proving this to themselves?
40:38
Rachel: I know, the unicorns.
40:40
Rachel: Like, the unicorns.
40:42
Rachel: So anyway, yeah, yeah, I think you'll find it.
40:45
Rachel: I mean, it's.
40:46
Rachel: This is the process for everybody.
40:47
Emily: Yeah. Last week I started taking notes on every day in my notes app.
40:52
Emily: I just do like another bullet of what writing I accomplished the day before.
40:58
Emily: And like half the days are empty, but the days that aren't, like, I made some serious progress just so that I could look back.
41:04
Emily: Because when I just sit where I am sometimes I forget that, like, I made a lot of progress yesterday even though I didn't today.
41:11
Emily: You know, like, so sometimes that could work.
41:13
Emily: There have been times in my life where tracking like that was really unhealthy.
41:16
Emily: Cause I saw every off day as a failure.
41:19
Emily: But some, every once in a while it'll be really healthy for me to like, remember that I am making progress, even if it's slow.
41:27
Rachel: Yeah.
41:27
Emily: Okay. I feel like we have talked this topic to death.
41:30
Emily: This was a really good one.
41:32
Emily: But if you are listening, listening to this and you want more of this and you want to be free of anti hustles, come to reclaim the magic it is from February 1st to February 5th.
41:44
Emily: We're going to talk about anti hustle.
41:45
Emily: We're going to talk about perfectionism.
41:46
Emily: We're going to teach you how to.
41:48
Emily: How to create shame.
41:51
Emily: Free hustle, free goals.
41:54
Emily: We're going to write together, we're going to hang out, we're going to coach you.
41:57
Emily: It's going to be fantastic.
41:57
Emily: So it's a five day workshop.
41:59
Emily: February 1st is when it starts.
42:01
Emily: It's completely free.
42:03
Emily: All you have to do is sign up at www.tenaciouswriting.com reclaimthemagic and we hope to see you there.
42:13
Emily: And there will be recordings.
42:14
Emily: Everybody asks.
42:15
Emily: Yes, there are always recordings.
42:19
Rachel: It's okay if you want to know the schedule, it's on the website.
42:24
Rachel: FAQs are great guys, I love it but the FAQs are schedules on the website.
42:29
Rachel: There will be recordings.
42:30
Rachel: It's okay if you can't make it live.
42:33
Rachel: We love you there.
42:34
Emily: We'll see you there.
42:35
Emily: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
42:41
Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course the Magic of Character Arcs.
42:44
Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
42:49
Emily: Link in the show notes.
42:50
Emily: We'll see you there.