Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / Best of ‘22 - Learnings from 27 years in business and more than a billion dollars in sales, with LUSH Cosmetics co-founder Rowena Bird (Part 1)

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Best of ‘22 - Learnings from 27 years in business and more than a billion dollars in sales, with LUSH Cosmetics co-founder Rowena Bird (Part 1) · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

• 0:00
  Hi, it's just me popping in with a quick message to wish you and your loved ones a beautiful break this festive season. I hope you're able to take some time for yourself to recharge and reset and come back full of energy in 2023.
• 0:15
  Over the next few weeks, our team will all be taking a much-needed break, and you'll be hearing the best episodes from 2022. When I look back over this year, there were just so many amazing episodes. It was near impossible to choose just one handful, but we did, and they're amazing, and I'm sure you're going to love them.
• 0:34
  For now, I'm off to spend some quality time with my mom and my family in Queensland after three whole years of not seeing her. Can you believe it? Three years. Oh my gosh. I'm going to be doing all the little things that are good for my soul over this period and dreaming up my goals for 2023, which you're going to hear about when I come back in January. I'm so looking forward to reconnecting with you in the new year and bringing you more of the good stuff with Female Startup Club.
• 1:04
  This is Rowena Bird for Female Startup Club. Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. It's Dune here, your host and hyped girl. Today we're learning from Rowena Bird, co-founder of Lush Cosmetics, a business that started 27 years ago in the UK.
• 1:34
  Since 1995, Lush has been a trailblazer in the cosmetics industry. From inventing bath bombs and creating new innovative products to fighting animal testing and ethical campaigning, it's come a long way since its humble beginnings in pool.
• 1:50
  Lush's journey is ongoing and as it continues to grow and evolve in ways that keep breaking new ground in the cosmetics industry, it's a journey that is so interesting to dig into. I know you're going to absolutely love this episode.
• 2:06
  And just quickly, while I've got you here, if you're on your phone right now listening to this episode, I have a favor to ask you. Please take a quick screenshot in your podcast app and share this to your Instagram stories. It helps me know that you really love the show. It helps other ears find us and it shows you're part of our club. Let's get into this episode. This is Rowena for
• 2:37
  I've grown up buying your bath bombs and going into the Lush stores and absolutely loving it. And what's funny is it's one of those situations where a brand is so big and it becomes so big that you almost forget
• 2:50
  that someone somewhere in the world started this brand with just an idea and turned it into this huge thing. So I'm so excited to have you on the show today, Rowena, to go back to the very beginning of this amazing brand that you've built and how you've done this. Welcome.
• 3:11
  Welcome. Thank you very much. Lovely to be here. Very kind of you. The funniest thing is, though, is when you say I grew up with this brand and I'm thinking, well, you know, me and the co-founders started it when we were really getting on a bit. So it's like, oh, I feel very old. Yeah, because in my head, I'm still early 30s. Oh, my gosh. I love that. Let's go back to...
• 3:37
  I guess the early 90s or maybe even the 80s to when you met your co-founders and you were starting to work on this as an idea. Where do you like to start the story? So, well, I've worked with the same team of people now for 40 years and tomorrow we celebrate 40 years of one of the other co-founders of us all being together as a group. So when I started working with Mark and Mo, there were six of us in the business, but not the six that are the co-founders now.
• 4:05
  So there were six of us and I was a beauty therapist. Liz was a beauty therapist. Mark was a trichologist. Mo was making products in their kitchen at home. And then we had two people that helped making products. So, you know, that literally was us. And we were making products then for the body shop.
• 4:23
  And then the body shop, like years and years later, body shop floated and sold and went on market. So we were given a load of money. They had to buy the formulas off us because we made about 60 percent of their product at one time. So they had to buy those off. And I think we got about nine million.
• 4:43
  For that, not we, but Mark and Liz and Mo. And that was invested straight into a new business for us, which was called Cosmetics To Go, which was mail order. And that was at a time when mail order, you weren't ordering online. Yeah, what is mail order? Let's refresh.
• 5:01
  So that's when you had a catalogue and used to leap through the catalogue and choose things. And then you would phone up to order it or you would send in a form that you'd filled out and we'd get those by post. So although we had computers, it wasn't pre-computers, although we had them, it was really for storing names and addresses and printing off labels. It wasn't, you know, notes.
• 5:23
  no big deal like it is today. So we ran that business for about five years. It was very successful. It was very lovely. And it had a great fan base. We explored a lot of things there with packaging, with solidifying different things that set us in good stead, really, so that when we lost that, due to
• 5:44
  overzealous customer service, I would say. So customer service is one of the most important things in your business when you're starting it up. But you have to be aware that it can cost money. And we were putting so many free things down.
• 6:00
  in each parcel, which made it all lovely. Then we were doing, that wasn't too bad. The bit that tricked us up there was we were doing next day deliveries. So, and then if you haven't got every item that they've ordered and you're doing free post and packaging, you're basically, you're sending out what you have got today, then another parcel later. Well, you're just wiping out your margins now.
• 6:27
  From what you're selling. So first pitfall that we recognised there was don't do that. And so you've got to look after your margin. The other thing was we didn't really, we very much and we still do it today, but we very much believe in promotion from within. And that's very important. But don't do it in the accounting department.
• 6:49
  What do you mean? What do you mean? Well, we had an accountant who'd been with us for so long and really the business was just too big for them. And they were very good bookkeepers, excellent, but could not help you steer the business, drive the business, keep an eye on your margins and make sure that everything you were doing made sense.
• 7:09
  We didn't have that element in the business. And then one Christmas, we had a huge flood. We were in a great big, it's a house, multi-story house that we were working out on. And one of the radiators was taken off the top floor. And we thought that would be, the plumber thought that'd be OK because nobody was going to be in the building. But he didn't turn off the water supply. So, of course, the electric came on.
• 7:32
  The water supply started going round, the heating system came on, and water started to come through the floors. And the police phoned Mark, I think it was Christmas Day or Boxing Day, saying, the building that you occupy in town, there's a blue light coming from it, we don't think all's well. And the water had slowly dripped through all the floors and was over the computer system that we did have. So the electrics were going up. So we lost all our names and addresses and
• 7:58
  So that's all our contacts gone. How many customers was that? So that was a big deal. And then we did a sale where we did purse openers, they're called, where you put cheaper things in to get people into like, I'll have one of those, one of those, one of those. And then I'll have bigger things is what you would hope.
• 8:18
  But it just led to lots of people having lots of purse openers and us doing free post and packaging. And sadly, we just went under. So, you know, those are pitfalls that we learn in that business. We all knew then that, well, that was it. It went into receivership. Everything went down. Now we started looking. What else are we going to do then? Everybody started looking in different ways. Liz went off to see about being a trainer somewhere else.
• 8:48
  for a time management company, I went off to meet Pair Lindstroud to try and be a balloon pilot, because I love balloons. And so I wanted to work in the area of balloons. So I went off to do that. But I mean, Paul went to the National Health Service, he went off to the NHS. And none of us were really quite happy going and working for somebody else. We were so used to the autonomy that we appreciated.
• 9:15
  in cosmetics to go and we kept coming back together and in the end it was like well I don't think I think we're unemployable so I think we're all going to have to get back and start again so that's what we need each other we did need each other yeah we'd at that point we'd worked together for like 12 13 years so yeah when I came down here I was 22 when I started work
• 9:44
  And it was very much like a family. So the core of us came back together. And that's who the founders are today. So 40 years ago. There's five of you or six of you. Yeah, there's six of us. So there were six of us then. And there's six of us now because we have a new founder. It's a little bit complicated. But one of the guys that had worked with us for that long, Carl, he had a young family.
• 10:10
  and he had to go out and get a proper job. So there was five of us, and then Carl came back a couple of years later. So we class ourselves as six founders, but we lost Liz a couple of years ago. The important thing about getting together as a group of founders, when you're starting your business, is think about who you're starting the business with, whether it's just you that's going to own it, or whether you're going to own it
• 10:39
  with other people and what everybody brings. Now, with the six of us, we had Mark Constantine, who has great vision and strategy. So he knows what it's going to look like. He can see it in his head. He has the big picture. And we're all very confident in his big picture. We're confident in delivering that picture for him. And then you've got Mo Constantine, his wife,
• 11:05
  She is very practical. So for manufacture, absolutely ideal. No nonsense, knows how it should be done. And we go off into manufacture. So Mo runs that. Helen, she is the most sciencey one of all of us. So her attention to detail is bar none. So when it comes to creating product that isn't just like a bit of this, bit of that, she is more of the fine art chef.
• 11:34
  so she could do all the correct levels of preserving a product. So we don't just whack in the preservative and just churn out the same as everybody else. We're more considered about our levels of preservative. And now really to this present day where she's creating products that are self-preserving, so we don't even need to use preservative systems. I mean, her attention to detail and her skill is phenomenal. Then we have Paul, who was our, he's our,
• 12:01
  techie guy. So he could do labels, he did our first online. So that was all great, because the rest of us were no good at that. We had Liz, who's all about education, and training and making it into a learning business to make sure that everybody understood what it was we were doing and could pass that message on.
• 12:19
  And then there was me. I'm adaptable. I say yes to most things. I'll give it a go. I love customer service. It's the most important thing to me. I love a good system. It's like a tick list. So I and I was only just getting married so I could move. So I could move to London and open our shops there and work on the shop floor and put in all the systems and the customer service levels and all that sort of thing. Boots on the ground.
• 12:44
  Yeah. So between us all, we all had a skill set that combined together made a total unit, which was a great starting point, really. And as well, when you start something, it's not as lonely if you're all there together because, you know, you're all together.
• 13:05
  trying hard and sort of thinking about it because it's very much a real thing to all of you it's not just one person's dream and the rest of you are trying to make that happen so um yeah there we were that was the six of us I got married we opened in May I got married in the July and then moved up to London straight away after my honeymoon luckily I have a husband who is
• 13:30
  very flexible. So we went and lived in London above the shop number two and then took it from there really. I just started opening more shops. So I ran the shops for the first little while and then started opening them from there. So we were all very hands-on and here we are 27, 28 years later. We're still very much hands-on. So
• 13:51
  Yeah, we're very much part of it. We're still inventing the product. We're still running and managing business day to day. Gosh, what a journey. That is crazy. I have so many questions and we're going to stay in the 90s for a while longer. We're going to stay in 1995.
• 14:08
  Let's just like go back to the early beginning here. Like why Lush? How did Lush come about? And what was that dreaming phase of like what this business was going to be? And like, how did we land on bath bombs? And like, let's stick around here for a while. So it was called, originally we were going to call ourselves the Cosmetic Warriors from the Temple of Temptation.
• 14:30
  Because we felt that's what we were. We were creating products not seen before. So we were warriors in the cosmetic industry. And everything about the products we made is a temptation and a delight. So we were the cosmetic warriors in the temple of temptation. Now try getting that on a label, along with all the other information that you've got to put on. That's a tongue twister. Yeah.
• 14:52
  So in the end, what we did, we managed to find an old customer list from Cosmetics To Go. And we sent a mailing out to everyone saying, look, we're back in business. We're just making a few products. Here they are. If anybody wants one. And while we're at it, we've got a competition. What? Name us. We haven't got a name.
• 15:10
  This is, you know, we're cosmetic warriors, but we haven't got a name. And we had different names. And we all sat around looking at them. And the one that came in that we loved was, I think she'd called us a lush garden or a lush something. We just thought, you know what, just lush.
• 15:28
  It's great because when you look up the word lush, it is all about excess and verdant and green and rich. And, you know, it was all those things that we felt we were. And so, yeah, we called ourselves lush and it's it's a short word. It has different meaning and it was becoming a bit of a.
• 15:47
  a buzzword where people like to use oh that's lush and so it was like perfect timing so yeah and it was used in the way that we wanted our products to be seen as as lush so yeah it was a competition with our customers that gave us our name do you know who that woman is that named the business elizabeth and well the funny thing the reason we remember her name is because liz bennett was one of the co-founders
• 16:12
  And so there was, we had Alice Bennett, who was the training. And then we had Elizabeth Bennett from Edinburgh, who sent it in. And it was like, oh, she won of every one, one of everything that we made at the time. Oh, my gosh. Yes. And we were in touch with her after a couple of.
• 16:29
  maybe three, four years ago, she actually wrote us a note. She doesn't live in Scotland anymore. I think she's living in America, actually. And she wrote a note and just said, you know, I'm so delighted I found you over here. And, you know, it's so lovely. It's still going and you've still got the name that I gave you. So, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Amazing. That's so cool. Wow. What a moment.
• 16:50
  It sounds like you'd gone through this really, I guess, awful experience closing down the first business, Cosmetics To Go, and then you've come back. You've had some time away from each other. You've come back. You've realigned. What's the money piece of the puzzle? Did you have to invest a lot of savings to get started? Was there like a big capital or was it scrappy, not a lot?
• 17:11
  you know, roll up the sleeves? Scrappy, not a lot. So we, I mean, for me, my contribution was on my credit card. And I think I had a limit of 10,000. And we had a building which was owned by Mark, Moe and Liz. So we sold most of the contents of that.
• 17:31
  I was doing car boot sales. I was collecting stuff from any of us. I was like, right, I'll do a car boot sale this weekend. Let's see what money we can get in. And we'd buy raw material with that. I mean, the others had a little bit of money as well. None of us had very much because we'd been trying to sort out, you know, paying off debts from the last business.
• 17:51
  So it was quite hand to mouth. What happened was we opened up downstairs, as I said, because the building that we're in, that we own, it's an old pub in Poole and we have a shop downstairs and we have the labs upstairs and offices upstairs. So we opened that up and we sent out a notice. Now, somebody, an old customer, Andrew Geary, saw that and said, oh, he made a phone call and he said, yes.
• 18:19
  are you going to make the shaving cream that I used to buy from you in Cosmetics To Go? And that started a conversation. And then he revealed that he worked with a man called Peter Blacker, who invested in startup businesses, among other things. And he might be interested in getting us back on our feet again. So there was a meeting had between Mark, Peter and Andrew. And the outcome was Peter lent us, I think, around 250,000, if my memory serves me.
• 18:49
  So with that, we opened our first little shop in Covent Garden. So we had a tiny one. It's unit seven, and it's now...
• 18:56
  a little cafe and you sit outdoors, but it was a tiny little one. And the story for us was that's where Eliza Doolittle sold her flowers outside of there in My Fair Lady, which delighted us. And the other bit was Alfred Hitchcock in one of his films. The bodies were dragged in there and put under the floor. So this lovely little unit at the end had all these stories surrounded. And it was in Covent Garden, which is just, you know, an absolute delight it is.
• 19:27
  That was popular. So people were coming in and seeing us. And we then found another shop on the King's Road. So it was up the further end of King's Road, sort of past the bit that's the best bit, really. But it was opposite Waitrose and just up from Marks and Spencers. So that sort of suited us next to the Potter, the pub. So we opened in there, 123 King's Road. And that's where Mike and I lived above there when we moved into London. And from there, we started to be seen.
• 19:57
  because Kings Road was the road. Everybody, if you came visiting London, you came to Kings Road. So we had visitors coming in there all the time going, wow, I've never seen this before. Can I take it to my country? You know, I want to open Lush Inn.
• 20:12
  Croatia and Canada were our first ones, but people were coming in all the time. And so it was always, you know, I lived up above and I'd be doing work and I'd go, Ro, can you come down? I've got some people from Canada and they want to take Lush to Canada. I'd come down and talk to them. And we had like particularly insistent ones. They were here for two weeks holiday and they must've come in, spent their holiday coming into Lush. In the end, I had to say to Mark and Andrew, look, will you just talk to these guys because I don't know what to say to them. And it was decided that, okay,
• 20:41
  Let's give it a go. You seem to have the ability and the wherewithal to understand business. So we don't know anything really about retail. We're just testing our feelers with it because we're not retailers. We're manufacturers and inventors. We're not retailers. So retail was new to us. And I said, well, if you take it, this is how your shops have got to look. But it's up to you to understand business dealings in Canada. So we had the same in Canada with the same in Croatia.
• 21:10
  I suppose I've skipped a bit there because it was like, how did we get the look of our shop? Yes. Oh, my gosh. How did you get the look? How did we get the look? Because they are quite different. The look of our shop came from Mark and Joe, who was our first employee, and I.
• 21:27
  going around favourite shops. So the blackboard idea came from Oddbins Wine Shop, where they put blackboards and they say, this wine is full-bodied and great with spaghetti bolognese. And, you know, so they write a little bit about the wine. And we thought, well, the blackboard's such a lovely idea.
• 21:46
  So we borrowed that idea. Paul Smith was Mark's favourite clothes shop, and that was all wooden furniture. So we thought, right, well, we'll have that idea. We love markets with all the fresh fruit and veg and stuff. So that was the ballistic idea. There's the cheese shop in Neil's Yard where it was just big truckles of cheese. That was the soap idea.
• 22:08
  So basically, we were sort of looking at our favorite shops and thinking, oh, let's take a bit of this. Let's take a bit of that. We can do that with our soaps. We can do this with our ballistic. And then we didn't have very much money. So packaging had gone out the window. It was like, well, we can't afford to package it and buy the quality of ingredients that we insist on putting in our product. It was more important to us to have beautiful ingredients.
• 22:32
  you know, A-class ingredients, organic where possible, fair trade, local. It was more important than having a shiny wrapper or a box or a packet. And bear in mind that from cosmetics to go, I did all the packaging. You know, I sort of felt a bit redundant. It was like, will anyone buy big blocks of soap that you cut as you come in? I was like, I don't think they will, you know, because people could have touched it. They're not going to be keen on that. I mean, how wrong can you be?
• 23:01
  thousands, hundreds of thousands of tons later, you know. Yeah, wow. I'm trying to buy their soap like that. Hypothesis paid off. It did. So, yeah, so that was how we got the look of the shop. And then Joe's boyfriend at the time was, he was a carpenter. I think he did kitchens, wasn't he? So he came in and started, you know, working with us on creating the shop. So the look came about as a mishmash of other ideas that we'd seen.
• 23:29
  everywhere and put it out. And we both, we all love theater. So we wanted it, what we really wanted, I suppose because we felt a bit sad because we'd lost business. So we wanted people to come in and feel like they were coming into an experience, not the same old thing. We wanted to do demonstrations. We wanted people to come in and see a bath bomb fizzing in water, have a hand massage, come and put your fingers in the pots and just try everything out.
• 23:58
  smell it all enjoy it pick it up touch it not be precious about it and I think people just really enjoyed that yeah and the staff loved it because they would come in and be taught about all the products and we still do the same today you know it's like get people involved when they come in so that when they come in they're coming in for a full-on experience and
• 24:22
  Experiential. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's what would have attracted people from overseas because they would have seen this store and been like, wow, this is really new. I've not experienced anything like it. We should bring this to wherever we live, Canada, Croatia, the world.
• 24:39
  So was that then the, you know, you went to Canada, you went to Croatia in like a franchise kind of agreement. And was that then like, oh, okay, this is a blueprint that works. Let's do this at scale. Because you have like a thousand stores now around the world, right? It's huge. Yeah.
• 24:54
  Yeah, but that was never our thought. I mean, what we have is license agreements. So we don't do franchise. If you franchise, you know, great, do it. But if you franchise and what you're doing is you've got lots of people that you work with. If you license, you license the whole country. And it then becomes their responsibility to grow that country, not yours. Oh, okay.
• 25:21
  And that's what we did. We knew we didn't know retail. So it was like, well, we'll license Canada to you. We'll license Croatia to you. This is how the shops look. This is the product you can sell. You can't sell anyone else's product. So basically, we're licensing the name and the product. You buy your product from us only. And then we started off a little while thinking, once you've got three shops, you start manufacture. So Canada still has manufacture. Yeah.
• 25:49
  Croatia does have manufacture, but we then soon worked out that actually manufacture is not the easiest thing to pass on that knowledge. So, you know, we have manufacturing units now based around the world to try and minimize our travel and environmental impact like that for distribution. But we don't insist that every country has manufacture because sometimes being retailers is enough without being manufacturers and retailers.
• 26:17
  So we learned that too. So, yeah, learning what you can cope with. But what I would say is an organic growth is much better. So our first ambition was just to have shops within the M25. So we recognized within the M25, there was great locations and we could make a nice business out of, I don't know, seven, eight, ten shops within the M25.
• 26:44
  The Canadian and the Croatian visitors made us realise, actually, we could go beyond that. But it was step by step. As people, we have never gone out looking for customers or for partners. They've always found us. And one of the criteria, which I think is, obviously, I think it's really important, though, when you're looking at a partner, is to think, do I actually like you? And would I like to have dinner with you? And that's where it starts.
• 27:14
  You know, are we going to have a relationship in a way of like, yes, it'd be really lovely when you come over or we come over to see you, that we all have dinner and a lovely time and we can work really nicely together. That's the starting point. And then it's like, well, how much money have you got? Can you afford to do it? You know, what skill sets have you got? And that moves on from there. Because it's really important to actually like who you work with and have a respect for them.
• 27:40
  Because otherwise, you don't want to talk to them. If you don't want to talk to somebody, you're not actually facing up to issues within the business, maybe. You can't grow it well. And I think it's so important to enjoy the journey. You've got to enjoy that kind of thing. Because if you're not enjoying your day-to-day, you've lost. Yeah. Because once you've started it, you've got to keep it going. Because you're now responsible for people's jobs.
• 28:06
  So, you know, once you've started employing people, they're your responsibility to look after them and make sure that they're cared for and you keep their jobs going. So, yeah, it is a huge responsibility. So the more you like people that you work with. So relationships, so important. I mean, business is just all about relationships and people.
• 28:29
  If we're to think about, you know, you've opened those few stores on Kings Road, you've expanded into Canada, you've expanded into Croatia. Obviously, there's about 25 years from then till now. There's a huge portion of time. If you were to kind of think about just the key like dot point blueprint of how you got from those first few stores to now all over the world, more than a billion dollars in sales.
• 28:54
  you know, just a huge business. How does that happen? What are those key milestone moments over these years? I think one of the, I suppose your first one is getting your shop open, choosing the right location. So, you know, just because it's cheap, don't go up a back street or don't go somewhere where you haven't got the footfall. Shops are expensive because of their
• 29:24
  More people talk about you, your reputation grows. If you go somewhere, if you try and be all niche and clever about it, and people don't see you, there's no one to talk about you. So word doesn't spread. So think about your location and where you are. If you have accepted somebody's money to help you get the first building, buy them out as soon as you can so that it's back to being your business. So we promised Peter the best deal he'd ever done. Bear in mind that he was...
• 29:53
  always doing deals and helping things. So he got the best deal he'd ever done from us in the sense of a return, an increase on his return. I think he doubled his money. So that was good. Then you haven't got somebody who has lent you a relatively small amount of money, which it is by the time you've grown into the bigger business that you're going to be.
• 30:18
  but they have a big share in your business. And because that can start to build resentment because you're doing all the work, you've got all the worry, and they're sitting there and taking lovely big dividends. So that can wear you down. So think about those things. Think about the future and how it's going to be. So although it's all very lovely now, the minute you don't need that money, pay that investment back so that it's your business.
• 30:48
  Wow, I didn't know that, that you'd paid him back. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Within the first few years, we made sure that that was the first debt that was paid. Choose who you work with.
• 31:01
  You can't always get it right. Friendships break down and that happens. But if you like who you're working with, that makes life so much easier. When the times are tough, you will rally in and support each other. At different times, people are flying high and then they crash. And that means then somebody else comes up and takes over the burden for a while while they recover. So you're always supporting each other. And that is, you know, there's so much to be said for that because,
• 31:30
  Business is a challenge and at different times, you know, you're going to be challenged. And when you're building your team, don't be frightened. As a founder, if you're a single founder or as a group of founders, don't be frightened of employing people better than you. Because you're still the founder. You're still the one that calls the shots. But what you're doing is building a very strong team of support around you. So your business stands a much better chance of survival.
• 31:57
  So, you know, when you hit, if you hit skids, you've got a better chance of surviving. So choose your people. So I think that, you know, we've always done that as we've worked through. Open, as I said, location. So we opened on the King's Road. People then started to see us.
• 32:15
  You know, it wasn't like everyone from the 49 countries came in on the same day and we went, we wouldn't have been able to do that. As a country came in, the first things that we were doing, once you hit three shops, you've got to open manufacturing. After a few countries, we realised actually this isn't, it's hard to be a manufacturing retailer. So we stopped doing that and just concentrated on building manufacturing in the UK and then shipping. Although Canada still had theirs.
• 32:42
  But for instance, Sweden opened one, Italy opened one. It just didn't work. So it was sort of like, okay, we're asking too much here. We'll control our product and make our product. We're inventing it. We might as well invent it, make it and ship it. So, you know, keep an eye on that. If a partner isn't right, then don't ignore it. If the relationship isn't working, don't ignore it. Sort it out.
• 33:12
  because the longer it goes on, the worse the situation gets. So you do have to face up to that. Not everyone will work. We have had changeovers of partners, you know, and I think in the end everybody's pleased with it because, you know, they've got out of the nightmare they were in because they didn't understand what they were doing and we haven't got to put up with somebody who didn't understand what we were trying to do.
• 33:32
  Yeah, I think it's organic growth. Don't try and do something too big. So, for instance, our first big store we opened on Oxford Street, we suddenly went from our normal, I don't know, let's say 200-square-foot shops or 200-square-metre shops, suddenly to 4,000-square-metre shops. Oh, my goodness me. You cannot – I mean, they're the same shops. They're the same stock. Yeah.
• 34:00
  You know, they've got spas in them, but, you know, we had spa before. So it's sort of, but suddenly the managing of them is completely different. So a big jump like that, such a steep learning curve. It took us four to five years to start breaking even on that shop. Now, luckily, you've got strong sales where, you know, you can support that. It's sustainable, but only for a length of time. But now it's all right because we've mastered the art of running it.
• 34:30
  Don't be too eager to grow really huge. It doesn't matter. If it takes time, it grows well. Slow and steady wins the race. It does. Yeah, it does. And organic growth is by far better than a big burst. Yes, absolutely. That word of mouth inherently built into what you do. This leads me to something I wanted to ask you about. Last year, you decided to stop running social media and,
• 34:56
  go off the channels. What has been the impact of that? And was it good or bad decision? It's an excellent decision for us. I mean, we're very lucky that we already have a following. So people know us. So that's fortunate. So people really have just taken it over for us.
• 35:17
  So people, you know, our customers are still like, oh, look, I've got a Lush Hall. I've got a ballistic. This is my ballistic in the bath. This is this is me using that, you know, so we've still got content out there. We're just not putting it out there. And the decision, it's not made lightly, but.
• 35:34
  We knew we had to do something. I mean, we have come off it twice. So the first time we came off it was a little while before the pandemic. And then once the pandemic hit, the only way of keeping in touch with people was through social media. So we had to come back on.
• 35:50
  Now it's not the case because we're open again. And we're not saying we'll never go back on it. We will when the algorithms change and negativity is not pushed at mainly young people. But people are influenced by what they see.
• 36:07
  And it's an algorithm. I mean, I'm not ever so technical about it, but the algorithm that is used is the same as betting, where they don't want you to stop betting. They might say, oh, take a break if you don't feel happy with this. They don't want you to stop. Why would they want you to stop? So and the algorithms are the same. They're pushing the messages that can be harmful to you if they affect you.
• 36:29
  So the suicide rate for young people from social media is high. And we do not use any raw materials that cause any harm to your body. So why would we be using a tool like social media that could potentially cause harm? So for us, it just didn't make any sense. And it was like, you know what? We're not happy with this. Something needs to change here.
• 36:56
  We're not happy being on it. Therefore, we're going to come off it until such time as there's a change. And it's a safe environment for people to be in because it's a great environment. People love it. And thank goodness for it. For so many people's mental health through lockdown, that might have been their only avenue they had to the outside world. So we're not knocking it. It is great. But there's a horrid side to it. And that's what we didn't want to be part of.
• 37:24
  Are you the only brand that's done this? Like at your size? I'm trying to think if there's anyone else who's taken this kind of stand. I can't think of anyone.
• 37:32
  No, I shouldn't think we're the only ones. I mean, it does have a cost. We reckoned it would take 10 million off the bottom line. So there is a cost and you have to have the guts to do it. But I mean, we started with a list of ethics at the beginning and we haven't veered from them. We've always we've only ever added other things, you know, like sort of saying that there should be a freedom of movement. That wasn't the thing 27 years ago. Now it is. So.
• 38:01
  You know, we add things to it, but we don't we never take it away and we stand by those things. And sometimes they cost you money. But if it's your integrity that's at stake and it's what you believe, then it's worth it's worth that money because that's what you believe. And you don't feel like you've sold yourself out. You're not greenwashing. You're not saying one thing and doing another. And that's really important to us that we never do that.
• 38:27
  Wow. When you look back over your 27 years, 28 years in business, what has brought you the most joy if you have to pinpoint something? The way we buy our raw materials. I just, you know, it's so, when we first started, we didn't have very much money and we were trying to buy the best quality. Well, we always bought the best quality. But now, I think, how many years ago?
• 38:55
  20 years ago, maybe, we coined the term creative buying. And that was because, you know, I wanted, for me, we were doing a makeup range on the side. And all I was being shown was the same normal packaging that everyone else had. I went, oh, surely we can be more creative about our buying than this. And then I went off and traveled and I found things that I wanted to use in the shop.
• 39:18
  So creative buying was a term that we started to use. And with that then came our raw materials. So we started going out to countries where we could meet the farmers, meet the growers, meet the producers. And that's how we buy. So instead of just always buying from the middleman who has bought an ingredient, it could be essential oil, it could be a cocoa butter, butters, oils, herbs from the farmer and given them,
• 39:45
  Say they give them 10 something and then they sell it to us for 40 something. That's, you know, it's worth 40 something to us. But the farmer only got 10. We find that farmer and we go, right, well, we'll buy it direct from you. We'll give you the 40.
• 40:01
  Because that's what we want to pay for it anyway. So that relationship has always been important to us. The term that we use is leaving the world lusher than we found it. And that is our aim throughout everything that we do.
• 40:16
  And so by buying that way, that's what you're doing, because we then can talk about regeneration, not sustainable. Sustainable was a great word for a while. And then we realized, actually, lots of things are sustainable. A palm plantation is sustainable. But is it good for you? Is it regenerating the earth? Is it doing anything above just growing palm? No. So we then started using the word regeneration.
• 40:43
  So we can talk to farmers. We've got different education sites now around different areas of the world where other farmers can go. And we can set up. This is how we can grow lavender, moringa, aloe, different things, how you can grow it in a permaculture way where you get more than one crop. It's not just a monoculture in the ground. You can grow a crop that puts goodness back into the soil. And you've got like a money crop and a cash crop and a food crop.
• 41:13
  So we're teaching how to grow different things together. And that's really important to us, which gives everybody then much more wealth. It gives wealth to the planet because it's enriching the earth, because, you know, soil, people take soil for granted. It's becoming less and less fertile. We're heading for a big problem unless we can sort it out. So unless we start using regenerative and then unless we start using permaculture, we're heading for a big problem.
• 41:40
  So by doing, giving education to farmers and saying, hey, you know, we can prove to you that this works because you have to prove it to people. People are there in tradition. Farmers often have learned from their fathers and their fathers before them and their fathers before them. So there's a tradition in a way that we do it. So we take those traditions and then we we show how you can put in permaculture with that and regenerate the ground so that they get more out of it and can learn a different way of farming.
• 42:10
  So, you know, I am so proud and delighted about all the different people that we can help with that, that, you know, women's cooperatives, women quite often, although they're the hardest workers in many cultures.
• 42:24
  They don't get the money, but they are getting the money. They are earning and keeping it for themselves. So that's really important. Education is really important. And when you buy this way, those are all the things that you're contributing to. And that's what I love about our products, because you can buy any of our products, and you have got a really amazing product for yourself, but you've also helped unseen people beyond that.
• 42:52
  So, you know, I just love that. That's, for me, that's what it's all about. I can see it. I mean, you've been alive all this episode, but now you are just absolutely beaming. I can see that in you. That's so amazing and so cool. And I'm sure everyone listening will be so inspired by, you know, everything you've been talking about.
• 43:13
  What is your, like, what's your end goal? You've been in the business for three decades. Do you guys want to sell the business? Are you going to stay in the business for a real long time? What's the journey from here? Well, who knows, eh? I don't think we're allowed out. I tried to retire last year on my 40th anniversary. Still here. And to be honest, much as sometimes I think, oh, I just want to travel and be an airy-fairy,
• 43:39
  But, you know, I would just miss everything that we get up to. You can't even begin to imagine an end game because times are always changing and things just get more and more exciting.
• 43:53
  And you asked me something else and I had an answer for it and I'd forgotten it. What else did you say? There was... Just whether you plan to stay in the business, whether the plan was to sell it, what the kind of next phase is. No, it was the selling bit. So no, definitely no plan to sell. So a few years ago, we started the EBT, which is the Employment Benefit Trust. And this...
• 44:15
  As shareholders, we gave 10% of the shareholding to all the staff that work in the business. And that's all the global business. So it's not the partner countries, but it's the ones that come under the UK. And that means that they have a vote in the running of the business when big, major decisions. So if we wanted to sell...
• 44:37
  We'd have to ask all of them for permission to do that. So as founders, I say we're all getting a little bit older and moving up and potentially out, though not really. And the second, the next generation are coming up and the generation under them are coming up. Now, you would rather hope that you've brought on the generation so well, they understand that they're not going to sell them. It's all going to stay exactly the same. But you can't guarantee that. Things change and you can't guarantee it.
• 45:07
  But when you put an employment benefit trust in, you can guarantee it because they can't do anything to everyone that works here. So, you know, when Body Shop sold out to L'Oreal, we were very surprised and upset that, you know, that happened. But a lot of the people that had spent their life, their working lives, working at Body Shop because of their ethics and the great work they did and the campaigns and all the wonderfulness that was Body Shop.
• 45:36
  And it is body shop. They were they were very saddened by that. And a lot of them came to us and said, I can't believe it. I, you know, I worked there because of everything they stood for. And now they belong to L'Oreal. Please, can I come and work for you?
• 45:51
  And that made us realize that actually people really care about where they work and who they work with and what the ethics are behind the job that they're doing. So we put the EBT in place so that for all the people that have chosen to work with us and invest their working life with us, we would never disappoint them. Lush could not disappoint them. And that is so, so, so important to us that we won't let them down. We care.
• 46:18
  you know, tremendously about how well, you know, the people who work with us are. And so, yeah, so we've put that in place. So, you know, no, we can't be sold. They can't be sold. So, yes, and that makes us... Not for sale. Not for sale. Not on the market. Gosh, I love that. That's so cool. Wow. My gosh. And it comes back to people, right? It's like you don't have a business without your team and without your customers and without the relationships that you have.
• 46:49
  Really cool. Amazing.
• 46:55
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 47:20
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 47:43
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that. Thank you.
• 47:58
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 48:23
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 48:45
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.