Latest / The Joe Rogan Recap / Mark Greaney (2023) - Writing, Injury and Life

Transcript

Mark Greaney (2023) - Writing, Injury and Life · The Joe Rogan Recap

0:00
Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today we're diving deep into a
0:04
fascinating conversation between Joe Rogan and Mark Greenie, the
0:08
author behind the The Grey Man series.
0:10
Absolutely. And our mission today is, well,
0:13
basically to unpack the key insights from their chat.
0:16
We're looking at Greenie's writing process, how Court
0:18
Gentry, his main character, evolved, his experiences with
0:23
the Hollywood adaptation, and actually some pretty surprising
0:25
stories about his whole journey as an author.
0:27
We've pulled out the, you know, the really compelling bits from
0:30
their long talk for you. OK, yeah, let's get into it.
0:33
One of the first things Rogan noticed, and it's kind of
0:35
striking, is this contrast. Greenie seems like a, you know,
0:39
a regular guy, but he writes these incredibly violent, super
0:43
detailed books. They're all gonna even joked
0:45
about, like, needing to be a total psycho to write that
0:48
stuff. How does that work?
0:49
It's a great point, isn't it, That contrast?
0:51
It really highlights something fascinating about creativity,
0:53
This ability to step into worlds and explore themes that are just
0:58
miles away from your own life. It sort of pushes back against
1:01
that simple idea that, you know, art is just a direct mirror of
1:05
the artist. Think about Stephen King maybe
1:07
writes terrifying stuff, but people say he's super nice.
1:11
So fiction gives you this, this space maybe to explore extreme
1:17
scenarios without actually, you know, living.
1:20
Them. And Greeney himself has this
1:21
very blue collar philosophy about writing almost.
1:27
He sees his books as a product. Yeah, something for escapism,
1:31
right? Practical use, like for delayed
1:33
flights or when you're stuck homesick.
1:34
It's a very down to earth take. It really is.
1:37
It kind of demystifies the whole author thing, doesn't it?
1:39
Connects it back to just needing a good story, needing a
1:42
distraction sometimes. Definitely his awareness that,
1:45
yeah, my book might just help someone kill time on a plane.
1:48
It underscores the value of that kind of fiction, that immersive
1:51
escape, he provides. Think about the last time a book
1:54
really sucked you in like that. Yeah, totally.
1:56
And it was interesting, too, that Rogan actually found
1:58
Greenie's books because Jack Carr recommended them.
2:02
Another author in that same, you know, thriller space.
2:06
Feels like there's maybe a bit of a community there.
2:08
Yeah, I think that speaks to how interconnected things can be
2:12
within certain genres. Getting a recommendation from
2:15
someone you trust, especially another writer who gets it, that
2:18
can be huge for discovery. It's just, you know, mutual
2:21
respect there. OK, let's shift gears to the
2:24
movie The Grey Man with Ryan Gosling.
2:27
Greenie seems, well, pretty pragmatic about it.
2:31
Yeah, very level headed. He basically saw it as a huge
2:33
commercial for his books, getting eyeballs on his work as
2:37
he put. It exactly and in today's world
2:40
a big movie adaptation that's like unparalleled exposure.
2:44
It can reach way more people than the books alone ever could
2:47
for sure. So him focusing on that
2:49
commercial side, the visibility, it shows.
2:52
He's pretty savvy about how books in Hollywood interact.
2:55
But he did point out the inevitable Hollywood ization.
2:59
Right, the changes. Yeah, the differences in
3:00
greediness compared to his books.
3:02
He talked about how movies need shorthand.
3:04
You know you can't spend pages setting things up like in a
3:07
novel. That's such a key difference,
3:09
isn't it? Adapting books all that detail,
3:12
the character nuance you get with hundreds of pages, It just
3:16
has to get compressed for a 2 hour film, right?
3:18
And that compression can mean, yeah, maybe it's less gritty,
3:22
maybe it's streamlined. You see that a lot with
3:24
adaptations, don't you? Oh yeah.
3:26
And so even though he seemed to think the movie was good, he
3:31
felt it wasn't really the same story he wrote.
3:34
Plot points change, character stuff got lost.
3:37
That's super common for authors, I think.
3:39
You know, the director has a vision, the studio has demands.
3:42
The medium itself is different. It leads to changes.
3:45
The core might be there, but the specifics the author's original
3:49
intent. Sometimes that gets altered.
3:51
And the casting? That was interesting.
3:52
Greenie apparently first pictured someone like Casey
3:55
Affleck for Court Gentry. Oh wow, that's really different
3:58
from Ryan Gosling. Totally different vibe, right?
4:00
Yeah, Affleck suggests. Maybe someone more understated,
4:03
maybe a bit darker? You know, maybe more morally
4:05
Gray fitting the name, but then the studio for huge budget
4:10
action flick. They're probably thinking big
4:11
star box office draw. Hence, Gosling is that clash.
4:17
Author vision versus studio reality.
4:19
Then there was that almost unbelievable story.
4:22
Charlize Theron wanted to play court Gentry.
4:24
Get out. Really.
4:26
Yeah, they actually developed a script, gender swapped the
4:30
character, called it the Gray Woman, but kept the name Court
4:33
Gentry somehow. OK, that's that's bold.
4:36
It really shows the kind of creative liberties Hollywood can
4:38
take. Doesn't.
4:39
It for sure. I mean, props to Theron, she's
4:41
amazing, but Greenie basically said, you know, admire her, but
4:44
that's just not my book. It's that tricky balance again.
4:47
Can you imagine that happening to like your favorite book
4:49
character? It's.
4:50
Wild to think about switching back to the character in the
4:53
books. Rogan was surprised Greenie
4:54
never really writes scenes of court Gentry, like hitting the
4:57
gym. Right, no big workout montages.
4:59
No, he just implies the fitness subtly mentions Callous, then
5:03
things like that suggests it's about maintaining skills, not
5:05
just muscles. Which is actually pretty clever,
5:07
isn't it? It makes the fitness seem like
5:10
just part of his operational readiness, constantly
5:12
maintaining those perishable skills.
5:15
Not a hobby, but essential as a layer of realism.
5:18
Speaking of realism, Greenie's journey to getting published was
5:22
long. Like 2 decades long.
5:25
Yeah, 20 years. That's incredible persistence.
5:28
15 of those years on just his first novel, which he didn't
5:32
even show anyone at first. Wow, that's that's some serious
5:36
dedication. Working that long in isolation
5:38
without any feedback or validation.
5:40
That speaks volumes about his drive.
5:42
Just the love of doing it. But then, after finishing that
5:45
first one, that albatross, as he called it, he apparently wrote
5:49
his second book in just seven months.
5:51
See, sometimes breaking through that first barrier unlocks
5:55
everything. Yeah, and Gray Man, the book
5:57
that finally launched him, was actually the fourth novel he'd
6:00
completed. He definitely hit some
6:01
roadblocks early on with agents feeling like he was falling on
6:05
his face forward. That whole journey just
6:07
highlights how unpredictable publishing can be.
6:10
The long slog on Book 1, then suddenly faster output.
6:14
And yeah, those early rejections, that feeling of just
6:17
failing forward, So many writers can probably relate to that.
6:20
He talked about this key moment, though, in his late 30s, an
6:24
epiphany, almost. So, yeah.
6:26
Where he just decided, you know what, I need to just enjoy the
6:31
process of writing itself, whether it gets published or
6:33
not. That's huge, That shift in
6:35
mindset. It's crucial for any creative
6:37
thing. I think when you stop chasing
6:39
the external wind and just find satisfaction in the doing the
6:43
research, crafting sentences, figuring stuff out becomes
6:46
liberating. And that joy probably fueled his
6:50
persistence, ultimately leading to the success.
6:52
Have you ever felt that way, where the process was almost
6:55
better than the outcome? Definitely.
6:56
So when he finally did get published, he was still working
6:59
his day job at Medtronic. Right, International customer
7:02
care, I think, yeah. And the timing was just crazy.
7:04
He already decided to quit and write full time.
7:06
And then the company offers a voluntary separation package.
7:10
He called it a black cloud moment.
7:11
That turned out amazing. That's unbelievable.
7:14
Luck, almost. Or maybe Fate making that brave
7:18
leap to write full time, then getting this unexpected safety
7:21
net. Wow, shows how sometimes things
7:24
just align even after uncertainty.
7:26
And the moment the film rights were optioned gave him enough
7:30
cash to, as he put it, eat for a year.
7:33
That must have been a massive relief, just breathing room.
7:35
Totally. And since then man his output.
7:39
23 books in 12 years. It's phenomenal, isn't it?
7:42
He said. He felt like he needed to catch
7:43
up because he got published later at 42.
7:46
That drive really shows. Yeah, incredible work ethic.
7:48
Just a commitment to building that body of work.
7:51
It's still funny though, coming back to that contrast, this
7:53
seemingly, you know, mild mannered guy writing these
7:57
savage stories. Rogan made that comparison to to
8:00
Robert E Howard, the Conan guy, also apparently pretty quiet.
8:03
It's a great comparison. It just reinforces that
8:06
disconnect that can exist between the artist and the art.
8:09
Greenie can craft these intense worlds without necessarily being
8:13
intense himself. Fiction as an outlet again.
8:16
And he made a point about his character Court Gentry.
8:19
He's not just some square jawed total badass.
8:21
Right. He sees him as empathetic,
8:23
flawed, trying to do the right thing, ultimately more complex
8:28
than just a killing machine. There's that interesting story
8:31
about Gun Metal Gray. One of his books.
8:33
Gentry makes a decision the Greenie thought readers might
8:36
hate. Oh yeah.
8:38
What happened? He didn't go into specifics, but
8:40
said it was true to the character, even if maybe not the
8:43
heroic choice. And surprisingly, not much
8:46
negative feedback. That suggests readers really buy
8:50
into the characters consistency, doesn't it?
8:52
I think so. If an action feels authentic,
8:54
even if it's tough or morally murky, readers who are invested
8:58
will often stick with it. Sticking to the character builds
9:01
that trust. How important is that
9:03
consistency for you when you're reading a series?
9:05
Oh, it's huge. If a character suddenly acts
9:08
totally out of, well, character, yeah, it pulls you right out.
9:11
Exactly. Which brings us to plausibility,
9:15
Greenie admits Some scenarios are way out there.
9:18
Yeah, he talked about his agent initially suggesting something
9:21
like Gentry saving someone from a mile away.
9:24
Just totally over the top. Right.
9:26
But Greenie's approaches OK, let's create these wild
9:29
situations, but then work really hard to make them feel
9:32
believable, ground them in real details, explanations.
9:35
He has to. Right.
9:36
Yeah, He has to sell it. And he made that funny point
9:39
about how in action stories, the bad guys just have to miss more
9:42
often than the good guys. It's kind of a requirement.
9:44
True. So how does he actually write?
9:46
He described it as pretty intuitive, like see to his pants
9:50
mostly. Yeah, with just a basic outline,
9:53
he finds the story more as he goes through writing dialogue,
9:56
building the tension. And he totally related to that
9:58
Hemingway quote about first draft being terrible.
10:01
Oh yeah, the first draft of anything is crap idea.
10:03
It's such a universal writer experience, isn't it?
10:06
Comforting in a way. Totally shows that even the pros
10:09
go through that messy process. Not magic and.
10:12
His influences go way back. He was reading espionage and
10:16
military fiction for ages, even without having lived that life,
10:21
subscribing to The Economist in U.S.
10:22
News and World Report as a teenager.
10:24
Dedication. Seriously.
10:26
And then that amazing full circle thing ending up Co
10:29
writing with Tom Clancy whose book?
10:31
Patriot Games was the first thriller Greenie ever bought.
10:35
Incredible. Just shows how reading deeply in
10:38
a genre can really lay the foundation for writing in it He
10:41
does. Believe in real life experience
10:43
informing the writing too though he actually did extensive
10:46
firearms training for example, right to.
10:48
Get that hands on understanding. It shows that commitment to
10:50
research, to getting the feel right, even for fiction.
10:54
Immerse yourself in the subject. But success.
10:56
Brings its own weirdness. He shared some stories about
10:58
intense reader interactions. Uh oh.
11:01
Like what? Well, one.
11:02
Person apparently left negative reviews for years and another
11:06
guy genuinely believes he is the Gray man Wow.
11:10
That's intense. It shines a light on that side
11:12
of being a public author, doesn't it?
11:14
The sheer volume of contact. And yeah, sometimes people get
11:17
way too invested or misinterpret things.
11:20
Must be tough to navigate. Yeah, you.
11:22
Hear about that kind of thing. So evolving the character core
11:25
Gentry. It's about balancing his crazy
11:29
skills with like a kernel of reality keeping him.
11:32
Grounded somehow? Exactly.
11:35
He used the scene set on bamboo scaffolding in Hong Kong as an
11:39
example of specific research he did and that really gruesome
11:43
self surgery scene in the first book.
11:46
He tried to make it plausible by having Gentry actually pass out
11:49
from the pain and crash the car. Consequences, right?
11:52
Not just shrugging it off. And he mentioned that incredible
11:55
true story. The doctor in Antarctica who
11:57
took out his own appendix. Yeah.
11:58
Truth being stranger than fiction?
12:00
Totally. It shows that humans can
12:02
sometimes do seemingly impossible things, which helps
12:04
sell the fictional stuff, grounding the extreme in
12:07
something real, even if that real thing is also incredible,
12:10
he brought up. Tom Clancy again.
12:12
Clancy's idea that fiction has to make sense.
12:15
Yeah, even. When you're reading about spies
12:16
and assassins doing wild stuff, there needs to be some internal
12:20
logic, right? Right.
12:22
Greenie tries to stick to that, but he also points out sometimes
12:25
real life survival stories are more unbelievable than anything
12:29
you'd put in a book. It's that.
12:30
Fine line, isn't it? Pushing boundaries without
12:33
totally losing the reader and to keep.
12:35
Producing. He's got a strict daily word
12:39
count. Discipline is key for him.
12:41
That's the grind behind the scenes, right?
12:43
It's not just waiting for inspiration.
12:45
It's showing up, hitting the target.
12:47
That's how you get 23 books done.
12:49
He's not. Just doing Gray man, though he
12:51
mentioned wanting to try other things.
12:53
Yeah, he. Sounded interested in maybe a
12:55
romantic suspense story. Still involving the CIA, mind
12:59
you. Still in his.
12:59
Wheelhouse. Kind of.
13:01
Sort of. And he Co wrote that military
13:03
thriller Red Metal, which he seemed to really enjoy as
13:05
something different. Planning a sequel to SO?
13:08
Branch working out a bit keeps things fresh probably.
13:11
Definitely. And that research you mentioned,
13:13
the travel to 38 countries, that's vital.
13:15
But he also learned he needs breaks.
13:18
Can't just grind constantly, got to recharge.
13:20
The creative batteries, exactly. Especially after intense writing
13:23
periods, it's. Interesting though, despite all
13:26
the success 23 books, movie deals, he still feels that
13:32
pressure deadlines and he admitted to having persistent
13:37
imposter syndrome still feels. Like the book is a piece of crap
13:39
while he's writing it sometimes, yeah.
13:42
That's kind of comforting in a weird way, isn't it?
13:45
To know that even someone at that level still deals with self
13:48
doubt? Absolutely.
13:49
It's a very human thing. The creative struggle is real no
13:51
matter how many books you've sold.
13:52
He also. Touched on the audio side of
13:54
things, choosing the narrator for the audiobooks, which is a.
13:57
Big deal for listeners. Huge.
13:59
And he sounded really blown away by the experience.
14:01
With his book Armored, he got adapted into an autumn original
14:05
audio drama. Oh, with.
14:06
Like sound effects and a full cast?
14:09
Yeah. He called it mind blowing.
14:11
Just another way stories reach people.
14:13
Now that audio. Space is massive now.
14:15
It's a whole different way to experience a story.
14:18
So with. The main Gray Man series, over a
14:20
dozen books now. How does he keep it fresh, avoid
14:24
repeating himself? That's the. $1,000,000 question
14:27
for any long running series, right?
14:29
He said he's constantly seeking new info, reading, travelling,
14:34
talking to people, trying not to fall back on the same tropes,
14:38
thinking about. The big picture, the macro
14:40
stuff, but also the micro details within scenes.
14:42
Yeah, I got. To keep feeding the beast with
14:44
new ideas, new angles. Otherwise it risks getting
14:47
stale, they talked. About the longevity issue too,
14:50
like how long can an action hero like this realistically keep
14:53
going? Made the James Bond comparison
14:55
right where? You just kind of have to suspend
14:57
disbelief after a while. Bond's been doing this for
15:00
decades, yeah. Greenie tries to manage it by
15:03
focusing on the bigger picture, the geopolitical stakes, other
15:08
characters, not just court survival odds.
15:10
But he admitted, yeah, it gets harder over time to keep it
15:13
believable. It's a.
15:13
Challenge How many near death experiences can one guy
15:16
plausibly survive so his. Solution partly is he's not
15:20
aging court Gentry in real time. Interesting.
15:23
Unlike, say, Daniel Silva's Gabriel Allen, who does age
15:27
through that series exactly. Greenie wants to each Gray Man
15:30
book to work on its own, even if there are longer Arcs.
15:34
His main goal is just keep writing good books, and if he
15:37
feels he can't do that with Gray Man anymore, he's willing to do
15:40
something else. So.
15:41
Probably no passing the torch to a new Gray man anytime soon
15:45
then. Doesn't sound.
15:46
Like it based on that approach. Gotcha.
15:48
And what about modern tech? All the surveillance?
15:51
Facial recognition? How does a known operative like
15:55
the Gray Man even function? Huge.
15:57
Challenge for the genre, now, isn't it?
15:59
He joked about Bond just strolling around using his real
16:02
name. Totally implausible today,
16:04
right? Finding plausible ways for
16:06
Gentry to stay off the grid or operate effectively when he is
16:10
known. That requires some creative
16:12
footwork from the author to keep things.
16:14
Grounded. He does consult with people,
16:16
CIA, military folks, getting that.
16:18
Expertise, yeah, but within limits, obviously.
16:20
No classified stuff, right? And he mentioned something
16:23
interesting. Institutional puffery, like
16:26
organizations sometimes overstate their capabilities, so
16:29
you have to be a bit skeptical. His approach when talking to
16:32
experts is apparently to be the least interesting guy in the
16:35
room. Just listen and learn smart.
16:37
Don't try to impress, just absorb.
16:40
That's how you get the good stuff he also made.
16:42
A point of saying how much respect he has for people in the
16:44
military and special OPS you can feel.
16:46
That in the books, I think, yeah, he.
16:48
Tries to reflect that even when he's writing characters in those
16:51
worlds who are flawed or even villains.
16:53
It's about portraying the complexity, but with underlying
16:57
respect that. Nuance is important.
16:59
Avoids making them just stereotypes and researching.
17:02
The bad guys, the corruption side that involves digging into
17:07
real world espionage, crime, deciding what's too much, what
17:12
fits the story, drawing inspiration from real events,
17:15
even the crazy ones. Because sometimes.
17:17
The real stuff is stranger than fiction, right?
17:19
Using those Nuggets can add that layer of wow, could this
17:22
actually happen? Exactly.
17:24
So that really was a deep dive into Rogan's chat with Mark
17:28
Greeny. We covered a lot of the mind
17:30
behind a Gray Man, his long road to getting published, the
17:33
details he puts in. Yeah, his.
17:35
Dedication to research, being honest about the writing
17:37
struggle, that imposter syndrome even, and his respect for the
17:41
world's he writes about. It gives you a great picture of
17:44
a successful thriller author, definitely.
17:47
Think about Greenie's take on Hollywood, how adaptations can
17:50
both capture something essential but also totally transform a
17:54
story. And just his perseverance, right
17:57
That 20 year journey so. What stood out most to you
18:00
listening to all this? Any questions still buzzing
18:03
around about spy thrillers or writing them?
18:05
Maybe you're thinking about picking up Greenie's latest
18:07
burner, or even watching that Gosling movie again with some
18:10
new context. Lots to.
18:11
Think about we'll be back soon with another deep dive tailored
18:14
just for you.