Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 163 – Camillius’ Conniptions

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Episode 163 – Camillius’ Conniptions · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad. Dr G 0:33 And I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr Rad 0:58 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad Dr G 1:06 and I am, Dr G Dr Rad 1:09 Dr G, we are still stuck in ancient Rome in 394 BCE. Dr G 1:15 When will we ever leave this time period? There must be other parts of history we must explore. But for now, there are too many details for us to move on. So 394 has been a pretty epic year. So far, yeah, Camillus has done some pretty fancy stuff with the Faliscans in order to get them to agree that Rome should have some sort of sway over them, but they don't seem to have to go through a whole siege process to achieve that. But you tell me, there's even more to this year than that incredible story. Dr Rad 1:56 There is more than Camillus and the Faliscan schoolmaster, which sounds like a bad porno. Dr G 2:02 I would pick up that erotic literature. Dr Rad 2:05 Yes. Now, unfortunately, there is more to it than that. We have a little bit more on Camillus. But then I have some other people actually doing things in ancient Rome, if you can believe it. Dr G 2:16 Other people? Doing things in ancient ROme? Oh, this is too much. We'll have to start a podcast together. Dr Rad 2:18 I know. Well, I mean, you know, it's really been the Camillus show in the 390s BC, hasn't it so far? Dr G 2:26 So far. Dr Rad 2:28 All right, let's get into the rest of 394 BCE Dr G 4:34 All right. I am very excited to hear where this is going. And despite what I said in the previous episode about having nothing left to say about this year, I believe I do have something more to say that's very exciting for me. Dr Rad 4:51 It is. And I mean, I'm, I think we're kicking it off with a really good story. So strap yourself in. Dr, G, so as we know, because. Camillus is just the most awesome human being on Earth. He's resolved that whole situation with the Philistines, which means that he's allowed to come back to Rome, and there is no techie triumph for him this time. Dr G, he's keeping it a little bit more under wraps. Dr G 5:20 All right, all right. Keep a low profile, accept the praise, but don't go all out with the horses, Dr Rad 5:26 Yeah, he's just getting on with his life. He just wants to live, Dr G, why can't people just let him live? I'll tell you why, because of that vow he made. Dr G 5:38 That pesky vow. Dr Rad 5:39 Yep. Dr G 5:39 Yeah, look, don't ever forget the gods. And also don't put people in a situation where they now owe money when they didn't have to before it's rude. Dr Rad 5:49 Look, it is. But as we know, the money side of it has kind of been resolved by this point in time. Remember those darling little Roman matrons giving over their gold jewelry and their ornaments. They've got the gold they've got a bowl. They know that they want to give it to Apollo, but it hasn't happened yet. And the senators are worried because Camillus therefore hasn't resolved this whole vow situation. So they are going to send that bowl to Apollo at Delphi. And this is where our special legates that we talked about our ambassadors in the previous episode when we were listing those magistrates. So Lucius Valerius, Lucius Sergius and Aulus Manlius. Now they all are sent with this golden bowl and present in a single warship. And just when you think that things are going to be resolved for Camillus, they're captured by none other than pirates. Ahhahaha matey! Dr G 6:50 Oh, no, yeah, it's a real disaster. Okay, yeah, Plutarch does go into a little bit of detail about this. So to take a golden bowl to Delphi, you do have to sail around the whole shoe of Italy to head around to the other side to get to Greece. Well, I hate to break it to you, but there are lots of islands in the Mediterranean and lots of seafaring peoples, and they love nothing more than picking off a lone vessel heading on its way with a golden bowl to Delphi. Dr Rad 7:27 Yes. Dr G 7:27 So this is happening very close to Rome, realistically compared to the length of the journey proposed. It is off the Aeolian isles, which are just north of Sicily. Dr Rad 7:42 That is what I am told as well. I'm told that these are pirates from Lipara. So I guess, given the you know, given the area that they're from, maybe they should be more like Mamma Mia. Will you please give me the golden bowl? Dr G 7:58 Maybe. But they're very likely to be Greeks. And they're like, I see your golden bowl - Dr Rad 8:04 Opa Opa! Don't smash that. That's made of gold. Can I throw some more stereotypes in here? Dr G 8:10 And you're heading to Delphi, you say, well, how convenient. They're our people, we'll be taking that bowl. Don't you worry about it. We'll get it there for you. Dr Rad 8:17 Yeah. Now, Dr, G, there's something about 394 BCE, there is a worrying disease which the Romans don't usually suffer from circulating, which is morality. I think morality became contagious in 394 because not only do we have Camillus acting so nobly in the first half of 394, but they seem to bump into pirates with a heart of gold as well as their gold bowl. Dr G 8:49 Yes. Kindly pirates, yes. Well, yes, it's very Guybrush Threepwood for people in the know. These pirates - Dr Rad is shaking her head - Dr Rad 9:02 I'm not in the know Dr G 9:03 Other nerds from the 90s, join me in this moment, the Liparian pirates notice that there is something ritualistic and religious to this whole ship, and once they are close enough to listen to the people on the other vessel. They realize that prayers and supplications are involved, and they're carrying very precious cargo for Apollo and nobody, not even Liparian pirates, want Apollo to be dissatisfied, because they'd be taking on the risk themselves. If they took the bowl, they could be seen by Apollo as interfering in the whole process. So they decide to not run the vessel down and not capture it. Dr Rad 9:53 That is so different to the version of the story that I have. Do you want to hear mine? Dr G 9:58 Oh, yes, please, because there are. Are other details I just haven't gotten to them yet. Dr Rad 10:01 Okay, all right, in my version, the pirates actually do capture them and the booty. And normally they would go home and just split it up amongst themselves, but they have a chief magistrate called Timasitheüs Timasitheüs Timasitheüs - look it sounds Greek, who apparently was much more like a Roman than he was anything else, okay, including these other pirates he's associating with. And he respects the aim of the mission. He respects the envoys. He respects the gods. And his attitude is so ethical that it impresses the people around him very much as well. And he starts treating the Roman captured envoys like guests of state. He then gives them ships so they can continue their mission to Delphi and he also allows them to take those same ships back to Rome again. So impressed are the Romans with this treatment that they enter into a covenant of hospitality with timascius, and there are gifts given to him by Rome which say on the gift card. Thank you so much for not wrecking our lives and the life of Camillus, our main man. Dr G 11:26 A beautifully told rendition of the tale. Now, some of this, some of this detail, is conveyed by Plutarch as well. So despite not running the vessel down, they do tow it to shore and have a good look at it. Okay? So they look at all of the items, particularly this beautiful golden bowl, and they are thinking about maybe they will take the goods. And this is when Timasitheüs intervenes as the general of the Liparians, and persuades his crew to let everybody go, and then provides additional vessels so that there is a convoy, essentially, so they're not just a lone ship, desperate times Romans Dr Rad 12:17 Ripe for pirates, yeah, Dr G 12:18 yeah. Don't just be like, stick to a herd. Like, yeah, where are your friends? Dr Rad 12:23 What were the Romans thinking? I mean, why would you send this precious golden bowl out by itself in the world? Dr G 12:29 Okay? But let's for one moment. Let's let us pause, because I think this might be the first time the Romans have ever sent a ship anywhere that we know about. Dr Rad 12:38 No, they said those guys should go and check out the laws of the Greeks. Dr G 12:42 Yeah, and there's the grain supply situation, but that's just up and down the coast. But like, how many ships are they ever sending anywhere? We don't really, don't really get a sense that they are great seafaring people at this point. Dr Rad 12:54 No, surely they've used a ship or two in their time. Dr G 12:58 Well we've got this one boat, that's the one we use for everything. So I don't think we get the sense that the Romans aren't sea savvy. I mean, who sends one boat? Dr Rad 13:11 That's true, and they are more land expansionists at this point in time. Dr G 13:16 Yeah. How long have they controlled Ostia? So yeah, I'm not entirely convinced that they're a great naval power at this point. So, but perhaps this is also about generating this idea of we've got friends further afield. The Liparians, look at that, making friends at the same time that we're making enemies elsewhere. Dr Rad 13:41 Well, this is an interesting thing, because this is actually a formal agreement that they're entering into with these people. And the idea of having these sorts of arrangements, obviously, is that it is scary to go out into the wider world. If you know, no matter where you're from, whether you're from Rome or elsewhere, you kind of do need to have, obviously, places where you can feel safe and be assured of receiving hospitality, and that's really what they're talking about with this sort of agreement here, because otherwise, yeah, you are a bit vulnerable. And where do you go when you need to make a pit stop or sleep somewhere for the night. It's it's a bit risky, isn't it? Dr G 14:24 Definitely, and this is tapping into very particular Greek ideas about hospitality and the idea that strangers can possibly be gods in disguise. And because you cannot be sure about the nature of a stranger, it behooves you to treat them well and to treat them perhaps better than you would treat just a regular stranger of your own town, treating them with the greatest hospitality that you can provide in order to ensure their protection and your own and that idea of a reciprocity developing between peoples over time is. Certainly something that has bounded the Greek world together since at least the Homeric epics. So to see this idea start to permeate into the Roman world, perhaps we shouldn't be so surprised to see it. And I wonder if it is the leperians that suggest this hospitality element, or whether it comes from the Roman side. Dr Rad 15:21 It's hard to say. I feel like the Romans are won over. And the interesting thing about this story is that when the Romans eventually annex Lipara, where these people are from, which doesn't happen until 252 they apparently respect the rights of the descendants of this Timasitheüs. So there is obviously some sort of historicity for this interaction for them. Dr G 15:49 Well, this golden bowl is going on quite a journey. Dr Rad 15:52 Isn't it? I know, I know it's crazy. So anyway, at least now the golden bowl's delivered. Apollo can be happy he has something to eat his spaghetti in. Not spaghetti, I don't know what vine leaf rolls Dr G 15:52 Eating his dolmades, delicious. Dr Rad 15:52 Olives something - taramosalata, yum. Okay, now let's switch to what else is going on in Rome, as you alluded to in our last episode. Dr G, there is also war happening with the Aequians. Dr G 16:24 Oh, yes, I'm excited for the details about this. All I have is this single line from Diodorus Siculus, like war was also waged with the Aequians. I was like, wow, okay. Dr Rad 16:34 Well, let me tell you. Dr G as is often typical of this year, it's very up and down. No one really knew in the city, or even those actually involved in the warfare who was winning while it was happening, the guys who were in charge of it, military tribunes, Gaius Aemilius and Spurius Postumius. Dr G 16:53 Okay, Dr Rad 16:54 Yes. Now they start off commanding the army together. Once they have managed to defeat the Aequians. They sent Aemilius to Verrugo with a garrison of soldiers, whilst Postumius was put in charge of destruction, yeah, rock and roll, to really take these people down, because the Aequians continue to be a thorn in Rome side? Dr G 17:22 Okay, well, sure. I mean, I can see how the Aequians might continue to be a thorn in Rome side. That makes a lot of sense. It doesn't necessarily gel very well with the other detail that Diodorus Siculus offers, not that he should necessarily be considered correct. Dr Rad 17:41 I was gonna say, Are you seriously saying Diodorus should be trusted over Livy? Livy? Dr G 17:50 I'm not saying that. I'm just saying for the benefit of pursuing our source material in these different directions, because the other thing that Diodorus talks about is that the colony that is sent to Sutrium, just north west of Rome, was expelled by people from the city of Verrugo, and that sounds like the city of Verrugo and its people might be being stretched in a couple of different directions if they're also facing hostilities from the Romans as well. Dr Rad 18:20 You will see where this all fits in in just a moment. Dr, G, you've got your little impatient pants on there. Dr G 18:28 Oh no. Let me hold my four white horses. Dr Rad 18:31 Postumius is feeling a little cocky, because it seems like they've got this whole affair wrapped up. Feels like Rome is going to conquer the Aequians once again, and so as he is journeying along his way, he doesn't make sure that his soldiers are traveling in the proper formation. Dr G 18:49 Oh, okay, that could be a disaster. That's about efficiency! Dr Rad 18:54 Could be? Is, Dr G, is indeed the Aequians cleverly managed to ambush him and his men. The Romans, of course, are not prepared for this, because they're not in formation. Get in formation. What? How many times do you hear that in a military movie and they're thrown into a complete state of disarray? They run into the nearby hills, and it seems like chaos is now the thing that is catching not morality. It spreads to virugo and the other Roman forces who were stationed there spreading like wildfire throughout the Roman troops. Dr G 19:29 Wait a minute, how does, how does the chaos get to Verrugo? Dr Rad 19:34 Because it's chaos, Dr G, need I say more. Dr G 19:38 I really want a map so I knew where all of these people were in relative distance to each other, because this sounds a little unbelievable, Livy. Dr Rad 19:47 Look, we don't really get told exactly where Postumius is when all this is happening. We only know that they were together, these two Roman commanders, and now they are separating. But how far apart they. Actually got before this happened, before the gay bodies? Yes, exactly. So Postumius starts to gather his men into a position where they're going to be safe, and gives them a severe ticking off for panicking and running away. He's like, didn't you learn anything from the Faliscians earlier this year? Honestly, especially against the Aequians, they are not worth your panic. The army altogether, like a little chorus admit that they deserved that ticking off. They had really stuffed up and they were going to fix it. You just watch them. Dr G, take them to the Aequian leader, and you will see. Dr G 20:38 Wow. Okay, so they get themselves into formation. They pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They're like, I'm ready now. Dr Rad 20:44 Yep, they say the army collectively that they would happily submit to any punishment if they had not been able to capture the aequian camp by that very evening. Stop questioning the details. Lean into it. Lean into my narrative. Dr G 21:04 I have some questions. Dr Rad 21:06 Postumius is very happy to hear this, and says, All right, I think you've got the right mindset. So go and grab a burger, and then we're going to be ready to go. Got it now, the Aequians had stationed themselves in a way where they were trying to cut off any possible retreat from Verrugo. They're trying to be strategic here, the two armies clash. The battle starts during the day, but because there is enough moonlight, there must be a relatively full moon, the battle continues into the night. In fact, Livy says they could see just as well as during the day. Dr G 21:51 Okay? Well, if that's not a sign of impending pestilence I don't know what is. Dr Rad 21:56 Now. Shouts were heard in Verrugo by the other army stationed there. The Romans in the other army thought that their camp was being attacked, and they were incredibly alarmed. Aemilius, their commander, tries to calm them down, and then they flee in a chaotic way to Tusculum. Dr G 22:15 Oh, really? Dr Rad 22:18 Yeah, there's a lot of chaotic fleeing happening in 394, BC, on every side. Dr G 22:28 By moonlight? Dr Rad 22:29 Yeah Dr G 22:29 Quick, flee up that hill. Dr Rad 22:32 Rumour now makes it to Rome that Postumius and his army have been annihilated because I guess the people who escaped from Verrugo have just heard sounds. Now, Postumius, once day has dawned, and there's no real fear of any more ambushes from the Aequians, he rides out amongst his troops, reminding them of their vow, and gets the Romans all psyched up by doing this. You know, they're like, Yeah, we did make a promise. The Aequians therefore did not stand a chance against the Romans at their full psychological powers. They were killed as they ran away from a wave of Roman fury. Apparently, this is what always happens when the Romans fight more with their anger than their valor, according to Livy, oh, really, okay, the aequian army is completely wiped out. Dr, G, I know I've said that about 50 times during this podcast, but I mean it this time. Dr G 23:36 Do you? Dr Rad 23:37 I really do Dr G 23:38 All right, so the Aequians really cop it. The Romans are too fierce to be resisted, and the chaos has now become contagious in the opposite direction, has been caught by the enemy. Dr Rad 23:53 It has but luckily, as the Romans back home are all in despair, Postumius gets to ride on into town with the best news ever that they were mistaken, that nothing bad was happening. It was just a battle. It was just a battle that was overheard, and the Romans have won. And so he gets to parade around and his little laurel wreath being like, hey, look me up. Dr G 24:16 Fancy pants, all right. Dr Rad 24:19 And that is all I have for 394, BCE. Dr G 24:25 Well, that is a great story, and I'm glad you told it to me, because I really was like the Aequians just sort of came out of nowhere in my source material, and then they were gone in a flash. But it sounds like, with more detail, that that's also what happens to them in Livy. Dr Rad 24:42 It is really. There is more detail, but it's a lot of confusing detail, because you don't exactly know where everybody is in this story, apart from the people in Verrugo, it is a bit unclear exactly what is going on, apart from a reference to some hills that they run into. That's about as specific as I can be, but certainly it seems like an excuse for the Romans to smack down the Aequians. Dr G 25:10 Wow. So they're doing well. This year. They've fought two wars on two fronts, and it's a two from two in terms of victory. Wow. Dr Rad 25:20 Should we venture into 393? Dr G 25:44 I think we should Dr Rad 25:59 Okay. Dr Rad 26:00 Well, 393, then Dr G tell me who are our magistrates. Dr G 26:05 Oh, look, this is very exciting. We have consuls now. It was so long ago since we had consoles that I went to check the last time Rome had consuls instead of military tribunes. So consular power was 409 BCE, so it's been a while, over 16 years ago. So I don't sure if any Romans, uh, remember what it's like to be a consul, but here we are. We have Lucius Valerius Potitus. Now he was one of the guys that was listed as a legate-ambassador the previous year. Dr Rad 26:42 True. Dr G 26:43 So traveling on the vessel with the golden bowl. And he has been military tribune so many times. And he is joined by somebody who were not sure exactly of the praenomen, could be Publius, it could be Servilius, Cornelius Malugunensis. Dr Rad 27:04 My least favourite name. Dr G 27:07 Such a tongue twister. And he was previously military tribune in 397, so we've got a guy, Potitus, with a lot of experience, and we've got a Cornelii with a little bit of experience in the role. He's been around a lot, yeah. And to offer some immediate spoilers to this, we also have suffect consuls for this year. Dr Rad 27:31 Controversial, yes, Dr G 27:33 Yes, it is early in the piece for there to be suffect consuls, so early that it means that something has gone terribly wrong with the consuls. Dr Rad 27:44 Yeah. So suffect consuls basically come in when the original consuls, for some reason, cannot fulfill the terms of their magistracy. Dr G 27:51 Exactly. And people might be more familiar with how the suffect consul works in the imperial period, where people just step away from the role and other people come to fill it in, that's not what's going on here. There has to be a really good reason for the consuls to not serve the whole year. So I'm guessing we're about to find out why that might be but, but we have suffect consuls. We've got Lucius Lucretius, Tri cip pin itnus, - Dr Rad 28:21 Tricipitinus. Dr G 28:22 Oh. Tricipitinus, oh, I'm glad you're here to help me. Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus Flavus, this is his first time in the role, so a new kid on the block, but I suppose everybody has to have their first time, don't they, and it won't be his last. Dr Rad 28:39 No. Dr G 28:40 And Servilius Sulpicius Camerinus also first time in the role. So that's that deal. And then we also have censors listed for this year. So I kind of foreshadowed that- Dr Rad 28:55 It's been a while since a good census. Dr G 28:58 Yeah, I foreshadowed that in the previous episode that there's definitely a censorship on the horizon. So Lucius Papirius Cursor is one of the censors, as is Gaius Julius Vopisci Illus. Notably, everybody mentioned so far is a patrician, and there is also a suffect censor. I know, Dr Rad 29:25 Whaaaat? Dr G 29:27 It is bad news all around for people, I think. Marcus Cornelius Maluginensis. Dr Rad 29:35 Again? Dr G 29:35 I know, I mean they keep popping up, don't they? Is the suffect censor and there will be a reason for this as well, as we're about to find out, Dr Rad. Dr Rad 29:49 And then, isn't there also a tribune of the plebs? Dr G 29:53 If there is, I don't have it listed. Dr Rad 29:55 The tribune of the plebs, we also should mention, once again, we're going to be talking about Titus. Sicinius in this year. Dr G 30:02 Are we? Oh, see, I have him down for the next year, pretty sure. But, uh, well, I guess we'll see. Dr Rad 30:08 You will see, indeed. So in 393 Dr G, we are back thinking about this idea of resettlement. So the tribunes of the plebs had initially proposed back in 395 that some of the Roman population moved to Veii. They've been, apparently trying to push it ever since. The patricians are very much over my dead body about this whole situation. But we're returning to this issue now. The plebeians have been trying to keep the people who are for the move today in office, as we know. That's why Sicinius keeps coming up, because he was the guy with the original idea. The patricians want to make sure there are also going to be people who are against this move. The plebs, however, managed to get more of their preferred candidates into office, so more people who are going to be pro than against it. So once again, it seems that we're seeing that there is a bit of a divide amongst the tribunes of the plebs, where there are some amongst their number who are amenable to patrician wheelings and dealings and willing to use their veto power for what the patricians are pushing for, whether it's because they also agree, because, as we talked about, this whole patrician plebeian divide, it's not as hard and fast as it sometimes seems. They might have class interests in common or political interests in common? Who knows, but we have seen this as a tactic that the patricians use for. Dr G 31:50 Alright, so things, we're getting to this kind of sticky point where maybe we're going to see some movement on this issue in favor of the plebeians. Dr Rad 32:00 We're definitely going to see some movement on this issue. Now, this is why we have consuls this year, because the patricians decide that they're going to get their revenge, because they're very concerned about the types of characters that have managed to get into the office of tribune of the plebs. So they're like, You know what? Forget it. No more. Mr. Nice guys. We're not going to have military tribunes. We're going to have consuls, God damn it. And there's nothing that the plebeians hate more than consuls. We haven't had them for ages out of respect, but since you are being so callous with our feelings, we're just going to go ahead and do it so we can try and book you that way. Dr G 32:37 Wow. Okay, so I mean, it doesn't take much for the patricians to be upset with the tribune of the plebs. I would say that anytime we see tribune of the plebs mentioned, they're not happy campers. Dr Rad 32:48 No, basically if they open their mouth the patricians are usually upset. Dr G 32:51 It does seem like a bit of a power move to put some consuls in. Does it work? Dr Rad 32:59 Well, we definitely have, apparently, a suite of tribunes of the plebs who are very in favour of this motion to move some of the Romans today, the consuls had been elected specifically because they were the kind of men that the patricians knew would launch a vicious counter attack against any such move. And so every single person in Rome is caught up in this gigantic patrician versus plebeian smackdown. Unfortunately, right at this moment, a place called Vitelia, a Roman colony, is captured by the Aequians. Apparently, this was a colony that was set up within Aequian territory. So it makes sense that the Aequians wanted it back. Dr G 33:47 Okay, I'm not really sure what to make of this. I mean, it makes sense for the Aequians to make a military move at this point in time. They've just suffered some defeats at the hands of the Romans. They're probably not happy about that. So making some moves while the Romans seem to be preoccupied with their politics at home, seems like a good plan for them. Dr Rad 34:10 My question is, Dr G, I just said to you that the Aequian army had been wiped from the face of the earth. How were they retaking this colony? Dr G 34:17 I guess it's the women and children doing all that. Dr Rad 34:22 Now, luckily, the Aequians decide because they are treacherous bastards that they were going to attack at night time. However, this ended up playing out to the advantage of a lot of the colonists, because they managed to all head in a particular direction, which was pretty much clear of any Aequians. So most of them are not slaughtered in the streets or in their beds, but they actually manage to make their way back to Rome and Lucius, Lucretius, one of the consuls, is put in charge of dealing with this. He manages to defeat the Aequians, who just seem to be a massive pushover at this point in time and returned to Rome in glory, but he couldn't enjoy it because there was something very disturbing awaiting him in his hometown. I try. Dr G 35:16 Goodness me, this is kept becoming outrageous. Dr Rad 35:19 Yeah Dr G 35:20 A trial? Dr Rad 35:21 A trial. It is the trial of two of the plebeian tribunes mentioned from earlier on. You might remember that when we first met Titus Sicinius, we also heard mention of tribunes of the plebs called Aulus Verginius and Quintus Pomponius. Now you might be been thinking to yourself, why am I listing these guys if they don't do anything? Because this Dr G, because what happens after they serve? I see so they're not serving in this year, they are not. What seems to have happened is these guys are apparently the colluders. They're the ones that have been won over by the patrician faction and had been persuaded to use their veto powers to kill the bill about they earlier on, or at least to argue against it very strenuously. So the Senate being mostly patrician, we think, although we know that that's not always the case, but they come together and agree that they need to defend these men because they were representing patrician interests. They were not accused of not having done their jobs, but the problem was that they had taken this stand against the proposed move to they so that's why the patricians feel like they have to come to their defense. Now, the plebeians, of course, hate them with the passion of 1000 suns. Dr G 36:50 Yeah. I mean, they're getting in the way they're supposed to be looking after the plebeians, but they're doing anything, but Dr Rad 36:55 Exactly now, because the plebeians are so passionate in their hatreds, these guys end up being found guilty in their trial, and they are each ordered to pay a fine of 10,000 mighty fine asses. Dr G 37:13 Wow. Okay, so even with the patrician support, they're not able to pull off exoneration. Dr Rad 37:21 Well, see, here's the thing. Dr G, it seems like the patricians had said that they should defend these guys, but how good was that defense? Really? I have no details here. Livy personally says that this verdict is 'shameful', and I'm quoting from my translation there, so he's definitely on the side of the patricians here, and this is where Camillus comes back into our narrative. Camillus is particularly vocal saying, how could the plebs turn on their own tribunes like this? Especially because there's a very worrisome implication, which they seem to have overlooked. But Camillus being the sharp little cookie that he is, rule follower as we know him to be, strict man always, he sees it. The implications is that the plebeians had actually kind of gone against some of the powers of the office of the tribune of the plebs, because by holding these guys as guilty of doing something, they've basically said that they're not allowed to use their veto, because that's all these guys did. They're just like, nope, we're not in favour of it. We veto this whole idea of moving today and by then attacking them, going after them, putting them on trial and finding them guilty. Camilla thinks that they have essentially taken away what has been a cornerstone of the power of this office all this time. He thinks that the plebeians would now find that the patricians would not put up with the cheek of the tribunes of the plebs, because why would they when they don't have to? And Camillus also ticks off the consuls saying that they had not done anywhere near enough to shield waginius and Pomponius, who had got into this whole thing because of the patricians in the first place. Dr G 39:19 Well, there are so many things that need to be said in response to this debacle. Dr Rad 39:23 I know. Dr G 39:26 Goodness me. Okay, first things first, when does the tribunate get its veto? We don't know. Dr Rad 39:34 We don't know. Dr G 39:34 We don't we don't think it's this early, though. We don't have reliable evidence for a while yet. So that's our problem number one. Problem number two is Camillus entering the fray here to offer his moral perspective, because he's been positioned as moral guy, so now he gets to stand up and do moral stuff all the time. Dr Rad 39:58 Yes, yeah. Dr G 39:59 And this. This feels like a very convenient twist in the narrative. Certainly, I think we can say for sure that if it is the case that these tribunes were working in collusion with the Senate in order to bring about a particular result that involved them not voting in favour of something that it would be appropriate for the Senate to look after them in the trial. The fact that they are fined anyway suggests that nobody looked after them very well, yeah, at the very least. So it was not worth it. So then, what is the lesson that we learn here? Never trust the Senate. Don't. Like they're they're not going to be, they're not going to have your back. Dr Rad 40:46 Seriously, have you not learned to not trust the patricians already? Dr G 40:53 They do not have your back, and they will not look after you, even when you vote in their favour. So if anything, I think this should be an exciting moment for the tribune of the plebs to realise how free they are in order to just pursue a really progressive agenda. And that is what I would advise them if I was Camillus in ancient Rome. Dr Rad 41:19 Well, Dr G, it will not shock you to learn that there are many historians who would agree with you that this seems like a really weird occurrence, and we have no way of knowing, obviously, what actually happened and what this really represents. However, let's unpack a couple of things here. So first of all, if this were true, this would be the only time in which a plebeian tribune is actually called into a trial because of their just like normal conduct during their terms of office. So that's strange. That doesn't usually happen. We've seen it happen with consuls and stuff before, but it does not usually happen with tribunes of the plebs. It also is a little bit similar to some previous cases that we have talked about, from 423, and 401, when we're talking about consular tribunes who were prosecuted and find similar amounts, yes, so it's possible that those sorts of details are maybe being borrowed here. Dr G 42:22 Yeah, the 10,000 asses is a familiar trope for a fine, but maybe that's what fines are. Maybe that's the going rate. Dr Rad 42:29 We don't even believe that there are fines being issued at this point in time. Dr G 42:33 Do they even have money? We're still not sure exactly. Dr Rad 42:36 Exactly. So a lot of these details are red flag. Dr G 42:39 Where are they getting the asses from? Nobody knows. Dr Rad 42:42 From my pants that's where. Dr G 42:43 They're certainly not minting them. Dr Rad 42:46 Can't stop myself. All right. So the other thing is, if this Verginius is from the same family as a previous plebeian tribune from 461, this is a real break in family characteristics, because, to cast our minds all the way back to there, there was Verginius, who served as a tribune of the plebs in that era, and he ended up being responsible for the prosecution of Kaeso Quinctius, the son of Cincinnatus, who was that uber patrician douchebag who got sent into exile. Dr G 43:20 Okay, I mean, we're getting deep into the lore here, of like, what is happening at a gens level in terms of political priorities, because that's the kind of patterns that the Romans really like. And if he's not conforming to type, something's up here. Dr Rad 43:38 Yes. Now, as you know, in the past 10 or so years, there have definitely been some questions raised about, do we actually have accurate lists of all the magistrates for all the years? And the answer usually is, no, we do not. Dr G 43:56 Do we have lists? We do. We have lists. Dr Rad 43:59 We have lists. Dr G 44:00 Do we trust them? To a certain extent. Dr Rad 44:04 Yeah. Now what is possible is that there is a basic record of some sort of trial involving men with the name Verginius and Pomponius, and because our later writers don't have records for magistracies like military tribunes or consuls with these names, they've thought, Oh, well, these guys must be plebeian tribunes, and they've constructed the narrative that way. However, it is possible that they actually served in some other sort of capacity, like maybe as a military tribune, and that's what this trial is about, because that would be in keeping with what we have seen previously. Dr G 44:49 I like this theory. It makes a reasonable amount of sense, and certainly we get this mention of these tribune of the plebs just a couple of times. And. And we don't really know much more than than what is in Livy. So I'm curious about where he got the material from, because certainly it doesn't come up in it, in the sources that I have access to. Dr Rad 45:13 Now, to get back to my narrative, Dr G, Camillus, pontificating and constant irritating speechifying really irritates the plebs more and more every day, they are starting to dislike him. They are turning on him once again. Doesn't help matters that Camillus is also egging the Senate on relentlessly to take a stand against this proposed motion. He doesn't like this idea of anyone moving to vein this way. He's like, You know what? Guys we've got to represent, we've got to take a strong stance. That means you need to be in the forum every day, every day, so that you are there and ready when the vote finally happens. Because if you stay ready, then you don't have to get ready. Dr G 45:59 Wow. It's a bit like the lesson about walking in formation, isn't it? You know, just it is, if you're organized, it's not ever going to be a problem. Dr Rad 46:09 Boy Scouts all the way. Now he says you have to take a stand, because this whole motion is a strike against Roman gods, the Roman city, their very origins, which is really what the patricians said from the get go, but now it's in Camillus mouth, after all, if Camillus were just thinking about himself, I mean, it would be good for they to be occupied. It would be a constant testament to his glory. If he was just concerned about himself, Dr G, he could be reminded of his awesomeness every day by gazing upon the representation of they that apparently would have been included in his triumph, if this were a triumph held many, many years later when that kind of thing happened and Livy's getting confused, back on track, but it was sacrilege for Camillus to even think about that anachronistic detail. They after all, not only was it a conquered town, not only was it a loser, it had been deserted by its own gods. How could the Romans even consider leaving their own city for a place like that? Dr G 47:20 I mean, it is the classic sort of rich person way of thinking, isn't it, where you're able to value things beyond the material world and your material situation, and to assume that those things are more valuable than people's rights to have a life. Because it's like, what people, Dr Rad 47:41 What? What? Dr G 47:42 What the plebeians Dr Rad 47:43 Quality of life for all? I'm sorry I can't make sense of the words coming out of your mouth right now. Dr G 47:49 I know it's outrageous, but the way that the plebeians are pushing for this is partly because they felt land strapped for a while. The whole last century has been an argument about releasing public land so it can be used once more by the public. So the idea that we're now in a situation where some land has become available, like they went and conquered a whole other town. Dr Rad 48:16 Why else would they be conquering this stuff, if not to use it? Dr G 48:18 No, we're just gonna let it sit there like a ruinous monument to Camillus' glory. And it's like, Dr Rad 48:25 You see that? I conquered that. Dr G 48:28 Yeah, that pile of rocks over there that was me. Dr Rad 48:31 See that tunnel? That's how I entered it. Dr G 48:33 No! Dr Rad 48:34 That's what she said. Dr G 48:35 Everybody just wants to have their own little farm and to do what they want, and now there's this opportunity to have it more evenly distributed amongst the Roman population, and the rich guys are prancing around being like, under no circumstances will we ever allow this to happen, not in our backyard. Dr Rad 48:56 Well, I don't even know what it is they're planning with it. I mean, is this because the patricians were sinisterly planning to make they their own. Like, what were they planning? There's no counter to it, apart from the fact that this would be a grave dishonour to their own city. But, like, what else we gonna do with it? Guys? Dr G 49:15 Yeah, Dr Rad 49:15 Just leave it sitting there? Dr G 49:16 This is like the classic. We assassinated Caesar, and now we're not really sure what happens next? Dr Rad 49:21 I actually, I really do think that the patricians must have been planning to take this over themselves, and they just irritated that the plebs want it anyway. Nonetheless, the leading senators, other rich dudes, so moved by Camillus speeches that they all come together, young, old. Doesn't matter, Dr G, they unite. And so when the law comes forward, they are all ready in the forum, and they spread out amongst the tribes, because it's the tribes who are going to be voting for this. And as we know, they vote tribe by tribe, like as a group, and say whether. They're for or against this particular law now, they take a slightly unusual tactic for rich, powerful dudes. Rather than threatening, murdering, beating other people in their tribes, they actually try and talk them into it. They try and persuade them with their words, Dr G, and they even resort to tears and begging in their effort to convince them - don't leave Rome. We've all fought so hard for it for generations. Look around you because we're in the forum - look at all the temples, and they basically guilt trip the other people in their tribes. They're like, guys, we belong here. This stuff, these gods, we all belong here. Don't take this stuff to Veii. It will be like they actually conquered Rome rather than the other way around. You're getting it all mixed up. It's all backwards. This is not the natural order of things now, because the patricians did not resort to violence, as they so often have in the past, but begged and importantly, brought in the gods. The vote was defeated. However, it was close. Dr, G, apparently only one more tribe voted against it than for it. Dr G 51:34 Interesting. This is definitely not the direction my sources take on this. Dr Rad 51:40 Okay. Well, I've only got a little bit more detail here that I might quickly relate. Just to round this off, the senators are so chuffed, so elated by the fact that this law has been defeated. The consuls, the very next day, put forward a decree that is passed in the Senate that seven iugera of land from Veii should be given to every pleb, you know, basically to every freeborn man. And this would hopefully entice them, and this is a really left field detail to have children, because I guess they know that there's something out there waiting for them, that they actually have the means to support them. But it's just interesting that they throw the kids detail in there. Because I was like, are we talking about like a failing population here? And this is certainly what some of the later academics have interpreted. They're like, is there some sort of manpower crisis going on here. Are we trying to create new family units or something to take over these parcels of land that are being passed out because to compare seven iugera is a lot more than what has previously been handed out. So for example, when the whole Labici situation was being sorted out, they were only given two iugera, so this is a lot more, and it also seems to be kind of what they wanted in the first place, which was some of the land of Veii. Dr G 53:19 Well, this is the thing. And so, yeah, to jump in with a little bit of detail from Diodorus Siculus, he just goes into this description of the Romans portioning out allotments of the territory of they sure each holder is given four plethora, which is a Greek unit of measurement. And I assume, let's assume, for the sake of convenience, that that's about equivalent to seven Roman iugera Dr Rad 53:49 Sure Dr G 53:49 But they're given a reasonable chunk of land, and the idea that there might be a suggestion of please make some babies, may be partly connected with the idea that if you have the land and you're able to farm and you're able to subsist, you will be able to also then engage in child rearing and production, because you have a sense that you're able to survive and to create enough to do that. Dr Rad 54:16 Sure. Dr G 54:16 So that might be what's happening there, but it does sound very much like the plebeians are getting what it is that they asked for. Because in order to farm the land of Veii, you would obviously have to go there to do it. Dr Rad 54:31 Yeah. Dr G 54:32 It doesn't farm itself. It doesn't sit there idly, and then you pop up, and it's like some sort of remarkable paradise where it's all produced itself. If you don't go and work it, it's not going to do anything. So does this mean that the vote was defeated by one tribe, or does it mean that Livy's really clutching at straws to try and make the patrician perspective the dominant perspective? And to not have them have this loss partly, maybe in light of the things that happened later in the republic that he's aware of, and he wants to position this in a really particular way, I do wonder. Dr Rad 55:13 Oh, there's definitely a lot of late Republican undertones to everything going on here. Dr G 55:20 I suspect so. I suspect so. And having said that, the other thing that seems to come up is this idea of pestilence, which maybe feeds, in a little bit, to the concerns about children as well, if you've got a generational issue. Okay, so the Fasti Capitolini lists the four consuls, the two initial consuls, and then the suffect consuls. And the suggestion seems to be that, potentially, the first two were elected incorrectly and problematic. But the suggestion with the censors, because one of them gets replaced, is that one of them dies in office, which is a problem. Dr Rad 56:07 Yes. Dr G 56:08 And it's such a problem that Dionysus of Halicarnassus actually mentions this idea and talks about this pestilence visiting Rome. There's a lack of rain. There's been severe droughts, and we know that Rome has been going through some of this stuff a few years ago now, but it seems to be back on the cards. Orchards aren't producing fruit, grain isn't coming to fruition for a proper harvest, and everything is a little bit suspect, and it seems like people are eating the food, and there's something wrong with it as well. So it's not just a pestilence that is spreading, but it seems to be something that people are getting from eating poorly as a result of the harvest not going well, right? So some people end up with pustules breaking out on their skin, and these turn into really large ulcers. Dr Rad 57:07 Ughhh Dr G 57:08 That kind of, that kind of pestilence, yeah, like plague, like pestilence, and people basically are scratching their flesh down to the bone is how it's described. Dr Rad 57:21 Uggh Dr G 57:23 It is, that is how severe and painful this process is for people. So while this is happening, it seems like maybe either the consuls are elected incorrectly, or they die in office. Seems like a potential. Dr Rad 57:38 Well, certainly it's one of the suffect consuls who takes charge of situation with the Aequians. Dr G 57:44 yeah, and so, yeah, whatever is happening there like Rome is not in a good way. So beyond the disputes and the protests and the speechifying and the Camillus standing up and doing his business, it seems like things aren't going very well this year in a physical, fundamental way. And the only other thing that I have on this year is that there is a whole series of problems that Rome has that do relate to warfare. So the war with the Aequii, they take a city called Liphlus. Dr Rad 58:27 Terrible name. Dr G 58:28 It's a terrible name, and we don't know where it is. And they also apparently start a new war with the people of Velitrae, because apparently they were revolting. Dr Rad 58:39 They are disgusting. I didn't want to say, but since you said it. Dr G 58:42 First, that's that's how they've been described. Velitrae is an ancient Volscian city, so it's kind of adjacent to Aequian territory. It's nearby. And there is also a city called Satricum, which revolts from the Romans as well. Satricum is nearby to Velitrae, just to the south of the Alban Hills near the Pontine Marshes. So there is a whole series of things that are going wrong for Rome. At this point, it would seem they've won Veii but they seem to be having problems to the south, all over the place, and they also send a colony to Cercii. Now - Dr Rad 59:30 You're welcome. Dr G 59:31 Thank you. Thank you. Cercii a becomesCirceii, which becomes San Felice Circeo, which is known as a bit of a Roman getaway beach town these days, but it's quite for further south as well. It's on a southern promontory. And so whatever is happening in this southern area doesn't seem to be great. So the desperate measures taken with Veii may be a response to other issues that they're having. Dr Rad 1:00:02 The manpower issue is suddenly making a lot of sense. Dr G 1:00:07 Yes, a manpower issue does make sense. If there is a pestilence war on multiple fronts, they're losing more men than they're breeding. It's not great. Dr Rad 1:00:15 No. And dare I say it? Dr G, perhaps their attention has been on the north a little too long. Dr G 1:00:22 Yes, it does seem like things are now starting to get out of hand to the south. And to close out this year, I also have some details about 'Meanwhile in Sicily', my side series. Meanwhile in Sicily, so there are pirates, there are. There's plenty of them. And then there are tyrants as well, including this, Dionysus, the Tyrant of the Syracusans. And he has decided, on the back of his great victory, defeating Magon of the Carthaginians a couple of years ago, now that he's going to launch an offensive against the Greeks in southern Italy, because he doesn't like them either. Dr Rad 1:01:02 Uh oh. Dr G 1:01:03 Yeah, he's got the manpower. He's got 20,000 infantry, 1000 cavalry, and 120 ships. So let's think about it Sicily, very small island, very close to Italy proper. The Romans sent one ship with a gold bowl. This guy is just sitting around with he was 120 ships in Sicily just waiting to launch them at somebody, and that's not counting any of the other islands around there as well, with people who love ships. So the Romans, did they take a risk? They certainly did. One ship. We'll just sail through the Straits of Messina. It'll be fine. Nobody will notice us. Dr Rad 1:01:44 Grab some gelato. It'd be great. Dr G 1:01:45 Yeah, delicious. So Dionysus takes his first offensive against the Rhegians. Now, this is the city that goes on to be Reggio Calabria. So it's basically the city that is in on the opposite side of the Messina strait. So very close you can see it from Sicily. You look over and you're like, there are people over there. And if you're Dionysus of the Syracusans, you're like, I'm gonna kill 'em! So he sails over there, full pelt, crosses over there, then does a bit of a land attack as well, heads over to Locris, which is on the east coast of the same little bit of the foot of the boot, and he's sort of flailing around in there, causing a mess for everybody. And while he's doing that, the people of Rhegium are calling out for support. So then a whole bunch of ships, 60 ships, get launched from a place called Croton. Now, Croton is also on the east side of the foot of the boot, famous, mostly because it's the home of Pythagoras. Dr Rad 1:03:02 Get out of town. He was born in the boot of Italy? Dr G 1:03:04 Yeah, that's where he lived. Yeah, Dr Rad 1:03:07 I never liked math. Dr G 1:03:08 Pythagoras, everybody's like, he's a Greek. And I was like, Sure, but like, Magna Graecia, please. Dr Rad 1:03:13 Yeah. Dr G 1:03:14 So yeah Dr Rad 1:03:15 So what are we just handing these citizenship cards out to anybody now? Dr G 1:03:19 Apparently we are. Croton was founded by the Greeks ages and ages ago, around about 710. Pythagoras lives around, what, circa 530 and now we're in this situation where, you know, 100 plus years later, it's time for an attack from Dionysus, the tyrant of Syracuse. Dr Rad 1:03:45 Guy sounds like he's going to be an ongoing problem. Dr G 1:03:47 Uh, yes, there is a reason why I'm telling you these stories, because eventually it's going to matter. Eventually it will matter. He gets into a whole sea battle with these 60 triremes that are sent from Croton. He narrowly escapes in his own vessel eventually, but he loses a whole bunch of people during this naval attack, and the Rhegians are bringing their ships in, but he loses his ships in a strong wind, so he eventually has to retreat. So that's a bit of a problem for him. He gets out of there. But in the meantime, what he has done is he's managed to also set up an alliance with the Leucani. Before he's had to take his forces back to Syracuse. Right now, the Leucani are the first Italic peoples that you encounter in Italy, if you're moving from the south up, okay, they're an Italic people. They speak Oscan, and they are sitting just above where this Magna Graecia stuff is going on. So they're interacting with these people all the time. But they also consider themselves their own people, and they're they consider themselves be native Italians as well. So. So he manages to form an alliance with this block, and while he's still figuring out what he's going to do with the whole shoe of Italy, now that he's had to head back to Sicily with his tail between his legs. So it's not over for him, I don't think, but he's he feels like he's made some gains, even though it's not quite as good as he would like it to be. And that is 393. Dr Rad 1:03:47 Okay, well, Dr G, I think you know what that means. It is time for the Partial Pick! Dr Rad 1:03:47 So, Dr G, tell us what is the partial pick all about? Dr G 1:03:47 The partial pick is about seeing how Rome gets along when measured by its own sense of what is good and reasonable. So there are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs across five categories. We will see how they do. Dr Rad 1:03:47 All right. Dr, G, what is our first category? Dr G 1:03:47 Military clout. Dr Rad 1:03:47 Okay. I mean, there's a decent amount of this flying about. It seems a little confusing, but it's there. Dr G 1:03:47 Okay, I think it has to be balanced by the chaos. There's the there's the lack of formation, there's the running away. Dr G 1:04:54 Temporarily. Dr, G, I mean, come on, they were probably barely out the gate. Dr G 1:06:31 Well, I mean, it can't have. They made great victories. I'm not sure that they have. And we also have to take account of the fact that the South seems to be revolting, Dr Rad 1:06:40 Yeah, look, there definitely seems to be issues that are not mentioned in this year, if the Livy for sure, but from Livy's point of view, it's a pretty good year. Dr G 1:06:53 Have they lost more than they've won? Dr Rad 1:06:55 I don't think so. I think that they have managed to hold the line against the Aequians in Livy's account and not in other accounts. Dr G 1:07:09 Intriguing. All right, I'd be willing to give them a, I think I'd give them about a four. Dr Rad 1:07:14 Yeah, okay, fair enough. It's nothing stupendous. Let's face it, yeah, it's not great. It's not, although there is that, you know, battle in the moonlight. Dr G 1:07:23 Oh, well, yes. Dr Rad 1:07:25 You can try to resist. Okay, but yeah, four, I'm happy with four. I don't think it's anything spectacular by any means. And really could have used a bit more detail Livy to make sense of how this all actually happened. Dr G 1:07:42 Yeah, I think Livy's clutching at straws. That's what it's that's what it sounds like from your retelling of it. The second category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 1:07:50 Okay, hmm, not really. No, no. There's just a lot of warfare, people revolting, people being captured, again, new colonies, old colonies. It's all over the place. Dr G 1:08:01 Yeah, no, yeah. Third category is expansion. Dr Rad 1:08:07 Noooo, but kind of if we believe Diodorus: Cercii. Dr G 1:08:13 Oh, yeah, they do send out for a colony. I could give them one for that. I suppose Dr Rad 1:08:20 it's a new colony. Dr G 1:08:23 I don't know how. No, I don't think it's new. So the same place, it suggested that Tarquinius Superbus is actually the one who founds a colony there initially, and then it gets taken by the Volsci, when the Volscians are under leadership of Coriolanus Dr Rad 1:08:41 Right Dr G 1:08:41 So that's going way back in time, and the Romans haven't had a chance to really deal with that for for the longest time, because they've never been able, for 100 years, they haven't had a chance to do they haven't been able to get that far south again, so unless they found a new way down. But yeah, there's this idea that it's been about 100 years since Rome has had any influence there. Dr Rad 1:09:08 Fine, one point. Dr G 1:09:11 Okay, the fourth category is Virtus. Dr Rad 1:09:14 I don't think so. I mean, Camillus is certainly taking a very high, mighty, mighty stance a lot of the time, but it's not really the same as what he did in the previous episode with the Philistines. Dr G 1:09:28 I think the question would be, would the patricians label what Camillus does in this year in terms of the speechifying and all of that? Would they classify that as virtus? Dr Rad 1:09:43 You always tell me that I can't count speechifying as virtus. Dr G 1:09:47 Excellent. That's and our last category is the Citizen Score. Dr Rad 1:09:54 Oft. Okay, well, this really depends on whether you're following your sources or mine, because mine, it doesn't seem. Too bad yours. It seems absolutely horrific. Dr G 1:10:04 The pestilence is not great, yeah, it is described in horrifying terms by Dionysus of Halicarnassus. But they, I do have some suggestion that they're, they are allocated some land from Veii. Dr Rad 1:10:20 That's true. There is the land. So, yeah, it's not all bad news. Okay, so maybe like five, I don't know, I guess. How do you score scratching your skin down to the bone? Hmm. Dr G 1:10:38 It's a two. Could have been worse! Dr Rad 1:10:42 Yeah, it's not great look. It's It doesn't sound great, but the land would be important, because it does feel like they kind of got somewhat what they were after. I mean, I know that what they were after was really about actually moving half of everyone to they it wasn't about having land allotments, at least in the way that it's represented in Livy. So I do understand there is a difference, but at the same time, is there that much difference? I remain unconvinced of that. Dr G 1:11:16 Yes. Dr Rad 1:11:17 Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Dr G 1:11:20 Neither do I, but, Dr Rad 1:11:22 Oh, we do have the victory over the treacherous tribunes of the plebs, if we believe that that's what happened. Dr G 1:11:30 So in a political sense, then we might be talking it's it's probably gone all right. But if you caught the pestilence, things have gone pretty badly, so maybe you're three, Dr Rad 1:11:42 Yeah, okay, three it is, which means, dr, G, that once again, I am safely counting on just my own hands, because the Romans have come out with eight out of a potential 50 golden eagles. Dr G 1:11:55 Goodness me. Sad, sad. Dr Rad 1:12:01 I think the question is, because, if you're relying on Dionysius of Halicarnassus for some of these details, you know that Livy and Dionysius don't always match up. And see, I actually haven't read that far ahead of 393 at this point in time. So it'll be interesting to see if some of the details that you've mentioned in this year come up at another point of Livy. That's what I'm curious. Dr G 1:12:22 Yeah, it's quite possible that the pestilence comes up next year, maybe Livy, Dr Rad 1:12:28 maybe we'll see, and maybe Livy's Just like, you know what? It's too gross. I don't want to talk about illnesses, Dr G 1:12:35 I'm done with pestilence, not this time. Dr Rad 1:12:35 I'm over it. I'd rather talk about Camillus. Camila is a great guy. He's my hero. That's who I want to talk about. Dr G 1:12:41 Yeah, it is reading a bit like a hagiography. I have to say. Dr Rad 1:12:46 Yeah, everybody's talking about me. Dr G 1:12:51 Well, it has been a pleasure, as always, Dr Rad. Dr Rad 1:12:55 Indeed. And I'm really glad that we haven't had massive technological issues like we've been having recently. Dr Rad 1:13:00 Fingers crossed, fingers crossed. Dr Rad 1:13:03 All right, I'll see you in 392. Dr G 1:13:13 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com. We offer a huge thank you to you, if you're one of our illustrious Patreon supporters, if you enjoy the show, we'd love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day. We're on Ko-fi for one off or ongoing donations or Patreon, of course. Our latest book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire, is published through Ulysses Press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don't want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favourite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome's glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire. Transcribed by https://otter.ai