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Insomnia: Why you can't sleep · Stuff You Should Know

0:00
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0:38
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
0:47
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's
0:50
Speaker 1: Chuck and jerryse here. We're all feeling bright eyed and
0:52
Speaker 1: bushy tailed in chipperd. Why aren't you not me?
0:55
Speaker 2: I'm sleepy.
0:56
Speaker 1: Are you really sleepy?
0:57
Speaker 2: Yeah?
0:58
Speaker 1: How do you sleep?
1:00
Speaker 2: Uh, like side sleeper or just generally? Yeah, Uh, my
1:06
Speaker 2: sleep is pretty good. I get up a lot to
1:10
Speaker 2: go potty too, but I've gotten way better, probably since
1:16
Speaker 2: I've had a kid, of being able to fall back
1:19
Speaker 2: asleep pretty easily, whereas I used to not be so
1:22
Speaker 2: good at that. And that's a real key to getting
1:25
Speaker 2: good sleep is because very few people I think adults
1:28
Speaker 2: are I mean some are, but are just so sound
1:31
Speaker 2: that they're just rocks through the night. You gotta be
1:34
Speaker 2: able to get back to sleep. If you start thinking
1:36
Speaker 2: about stuff, then your toast.
1:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, some people have trouble falling back asleep. Some people, chuck,
1:44
Speaker 1: get this, have trouble falling asleep initially.
1:47
Speaker 2: Even I have a lot of empathy for people with
1:52
Speaker 2: chronic insomnia, which we're talking about insomnia. It just sounds
1:55
Speaker 2: like a terrible thing. Uh. We've talked about fatal familie insomnia. Yeah,
2:01
Speaker 2: and we've talked about like how much sleep do people need?
2:03
Speaker 2: That was one of the early early ones.
2:05
Speaker 1: And is science phasing out sleep? That was about new tropics.
2:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I was really surprised that we hadn't just
2:10
Speaker 2: done a regular old insomnia. But big thanks to the
2:16
Speaker 2: National Institute of Health and Sleep Foundation. Yes, our old
2:19
Speaker 2: friends at houstuffworks dot com Okay, University of Pennsylvania, Harvard.
2:24
Speaker 2: I got a lot of different sources for this one.
2:27
Speaker 2: And here we go with insomnia.
2:30
Speaker 1: Okay, I guess we're starting, everybody. It was a pre amble,
2:33
Speaker 1: so I thought that this definition of insomnia was about
2:37
Speaker 1: as succinct as it can be. It's a sleep disorder
2:40
Speaker 1: characterized by difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, or both. This
2:45
Speaker 1: is very important, even if you have ample time to
2:48
Speaker 1: fall asleep or sleep, even if you have a bedroom
2:51
Speaker 1: environment conducive to RESTful sleep. So you, guys, are everything
2:55
Speaker 1: you need to sleep, and you still can't sleep, you
2:57
Speaker 1: still can't stay asleep or both.
3:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you, and we'll get to all the different kinds.
3:05
Speaker 2: It gets a little confusing. Actually, I'm still not one
3:07
Speaker 2: hundred percent sure how to classify the different types of insomnia.
3:11
Speaker 1: I think they rolled it all together.
3:14
Speaker 2: Well yeah, true, But if you you know, if you
3:17
Speaker 2: live next door to or above an apartment above like
3:20
Speaker 2: a loud club, or if you recently had like a
3:23
Speaker 2: big shift in your work hours like these are all
3:26
Speaker 2: reasons that you might not be able to get to
3:28
Speaker 2: sleep and you may have insomnia. But and again we'll
3:32
Speaker 2: go over all these and more detail. But that is
3:33
Speaker 2: like a temporary or transient insomnia. Transient if it's if
3:39
Speaker 2: it's really just a few days, like if you have
3:41
Speaker 2: jet lag or something, and then if it's a few
3:44
Speaker 2: days into it, like a week or two, then it
3:46
Speaker 2: can then it travels to what's the other gun n
3:51
Speaker 2: no no, no, acute insomnia and then chronic is the
3:55
Speaker 2: the really really tough one.
3:57
Speaker 1: Right, Well, we'll break all that out, but we should
3:59
Speaker 1: talk talk a little more about what happens with insomnia
4:03
Speaker 1: and like what's required to actually get a diagnosis, because
4:06
Speaker 1: it's not enough to show up and say like I'm
4:10
Speaker 1: having trouble sleeping that you have to say I'm having
4:13
Speaker 1: trouble sleeping and I can't finish the sentence during the
4:15
Speaker 1: day because I'm so tired.
4:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also, the first thing your doctor is
4:21
Speaker 2: going to say is like how much sleep you're getting,
4:22
Speaker 2: because as we went over in are do you.
4:25
Speaker 1: Really say sleep none?
4:27
Speaker 2: Do you really need to sleep? Episode? And it's a
4:29
Speaker 2: big swath. It's interesting when you look at the breakdown
4:31
Speaker 2: of how much sleep you need as you age. I
4:35
Speaker 2: can't remember what it was for preteen.
4:38
Speaker 1: It's like a million hours a day, it was.
4:40
Speaker 2: A lot, but thirteen to eighteen it's eight to ten hours.
4:43
Speaker 2: And then they say between eighteen, once you hit eighteen,
4:46
Speaker 2: all the way up into sixty four years of age,
4:50
Speaker 2: you need about six to eight hours. No, no, no, I'm sorry,
4:55
Speaker 2: seven to nine hours, right, and then once you get
4:58
Speaker 2: a little bit older than sixty, that actually goes down
5:02
Speaker 2: to seven to eight instead of seven to nine.
5:04
Speaker 1: You know what sucks, though, is I saw not necessarily
5:07
Speaker 1: that you need less sleep as you age, but that
5:09
Speaker 1: you get less sleep as you age, whether you want
5:12
Speaker 1: to or not, because your sleep deteriorates, your ability to
5:16
Speaker 1: sleep deteriorates because your brain should over time.
5:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you and I know that you can testify
5:22
Speaker 2: to this, but as you get older, the ability for
5:25
Speaker 2: most people to sleep in is really what goes.
5:28
Speaker 1: I'm glad for that. I've actually started getting up earlier
5:30
Speaker 1: and earlier. And I like, no kidding, yeah, why I
5:35
Speaker 1: know some of the time stamps on emails I've sent you.
5:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like I get alerts or anything. It's
5:39
Speaker 2: not like you're waking me up. But I'll see emails
5:41
Speaker 2: from you in like the six o four range. I'm like,
5:43
Speaker 2: all right, Josh, is at it man.
5:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've already had my coffee and gone for
5:47
Speaker 1: a jog by then.
5:49
Speaker 2: I get up early too, and I am glad for
5:51
Speaker 2: it because I like mornings and I think a lot
5:54
Speaker 2: of good work is done in the morning.
5:55
Speaker 1: And that's what I say.
5:57
Speaker 2: If I can sleep until eight am, that's ah, that's a.
6:01
Speaker 1: I would feel like I wasted the entire day if
6:03
Speaker 1: I slept till eight.
6:05
Speaker 2: I would feel like I.
6:06
Speaker 1: Must have raved all night if I if I woke
6:08
Speaker 1: up at eight.
6:10
Speaker 2: But sometimes I'm the earliest riser in my house, like
6:12
Speaker 2: on weekends. Emily can still sleep. I mean, she has
6:16
Speaker 2: bouts of insomnia for sure, but when she sleeps, she
6:21
Speaker 2: can she can rocket. Man, that's awesome. Yeah, ten o'clock
6:24
Speaker 2: or so if I if it happens.
6:26
Speaker 1: Pretty enviable, No kidding, Yeah, I haven't done that in
6:29
Speaker 1: a really long long time.
6:32
Speaker 2: How does um sleep?
6:33
Speaker 1: She sleeps fine, I mean.
6:35
Speaker 2: But does she get up earlier? Does she sleep a
6:36
Speaker 2: little later?
6:37
Speaker 1: She gets up, She's awake earlier then she gets up
6:41
Speaker 1: because Momo sleeps in later.
6:44
Speaker 2: So there's just like morning bed relaxation.
6:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you doesn't want to disturb Mo because MO
6:48
Speaker 1: will follow her out and like it'll it'll affect her
6:52
Speaker 1: last like hour of sleep. So yeah, she hangs out
6:54
Speaker 1: with mo and does less stuff.
6:56
Speaker 2: Amen. Uh that that that weekend spend that first hour
7:01
Speaker 2: in bed doing stuff is very nice and relaxing totally.
7:05
Speaker 1: You mean like you mean barbecue.
7:09
Speaker 2: All right, So insomnia in Latin literally means no sleep,
7:14
Speaker 2: and they had to settle on a number. You know,
7:18
Speaker 2: it really varies on how long it takes people to
7:20
Speaker 2: fall asleep, obviously, but they had to get together finally
7:23
Speaker 2: and say, we got to come up with a number
7:25
Speaker 2: everybody for what you should shoot for. And what they
7:27
Speaker 2: eventually landed on was twenty minutes to fall asleep is
7:32
Speaker 2: what they consider sort of the quote unquote normal range,
7:36
Speaker 2: and if you're going well well beyond that, then you
7:40
Speaker 2: may have insomnia.
7:42
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that's weird. Like I think that you usually
7:47
Speaker 1: need thirty to forty five minutes to fall asleep, and
7:51
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's just on the nights where
7:53
Speaker 1: you get sleep, or if that alone qualifies you for insomnia, because.
7:58
Speaker 2: Because thirty didn't, I mean, that's only ten minute, it's more.
8:00
Speaker 1: No, but that would qualify as difficulty falling asleep, which
8:03
Speaker 1: The term for that is sleep on set insomnia.
8:07
Speaker 2: And that's if you're really trying to go to sleep,
8:09
Speaker 2: you're not laying there scrolling through your social medis.
8:11
Speaker 1: Right, and we'll see that trying to go to sleep
8:15
Speaker 1: can have like the a counterproductive effect on people with insomnia,
8:19
Speaker 1: because there's a type of insomnia where you are worried
8:23
Speaker 1: you're not going to get sleep so much that you
8:25
Speaker 1: can't fall asleep.
8:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's one of the biggest I think things
8:30
Speaker 2: about insomnia if you really have bad insomnia, is the
8:36
Speaker 2: worry and even the in the hours before bedtime, people
8:42
Speaker 2: will start to worry. And that's just such a sad
8:44
Speaker 2: way to live, you know.
8:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea of thinking about your bedroom is a
8:48
Speaker 1: place of dread in Anxietymy is really really sad to me.
8:52
Speaker 1: And I love my bedroom, Yes, me too. And I
8:55
Speaker 1: hope that everyone with insomnia gets over it eventually because
9:00
Speaker 1: everyone deserves good sleep.
9:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, it goes out saying that lack
9:04
Speaker 2: of sleep can cause all sorts of medical health issues
9:07
Speaker 2: because your body needs sleep, not to mention accidents that
9:11
Speaker 2: can happen when you're too sleepy, whether it's falling asleep
9:13
Speaker 2: at the wheels or if you you know, work a
9:15
Speaker 2: chip job and you're running machinery stuff like that, all
9:18
Speaker 2: kinds of bad things have happened because you haven't had
9:20
Speaker 2: been asleep.
9:21
Speaker 1: Yes, and so you say, okay, well, this is a
9:24
Speaker 1: disorder that affects a lot of people. Did you say
9:26
Speaker 1: how many people have it?
9:28
Speaker 2: I didn't. We didn't go with the stats. Why don't
9:30
Speaker 2: you hit them with some.
9:31
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm taking the statman role for today.
9:34
Speaker 2: All Right, I'm gonna take a quick little micro sleep.
9:36
Speaker 1: As many as seventy million Americans have some sort of
9:40
Speaker 1: sleep disorder, which would include insomnia, and that at any
9:44
Speaker 1: given night, there's ten percent of people in the United
9:47
Speaker 1: States are having trouble sleeping. There's a lot of people.
9:51
Speaker 1: That's twenty five million something like that, and that eventually
9:56
Speaker 1: about two thirds of people will experience insomnia to some
10:00
Speaker 1: degree or another.
10:01
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also saw some worldwide statistics that said that,
10:05
Speaker 2: and this wasn't necessarily just insomnia, but sixty two percent
10:10
Speaker 2: of people all around the world say they don't get
10:12
Speaker 2: enough sleep. Yeah, that's a lot, that's you know, in
10:16
Speaker 2: the majority.
10:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's sad.
10:19
Speaker 2: People aren't sleeping enough.
10:20
Speaker 1: And it's supposedly a pretty modern problem because I saw
10:25
Speaker 1: some sleep doctor I think he was a neurologist, and
10:28
Speaker 1: he was saying, like, you know, we have ways of
10:31
Speaker 1: storing up energy later on, because humans as a species
10:37
Speaker 1: have encountered you know, feast or famine cycles before, so
10:41
Speaker 1: our bodies evolved to like store food for a while
10:45
Speaker 1: in times of leanness, right, don't have that with sleep,
10:50
Speaker 1: Like we don't have a way to store like a
10:54
Speaker 1: wakefulness or something like that, or energy in our brain
10:58
Speaker 1: for times when we don't get And he was saying,
11:01
Speaker 1: that's evidence right there that we've never as a species
11:05
Speaker 1: encountered difficulty sleeping before. That that is a very new thing.
11:10
Speaker 2: That's really interesting.
11:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought so too.
11:12
Speaker 2: And not surprising. There is not a like a single
11:14
Speaker 2: you can't point to a single cause. Or are all
11:16
Speaker 2: kinds of reasons someone might have insomnia, but most of
11:20
Speaker 2: them boiled down as far as like not non psychological causes.
11:26
Speaker 2: There are many, many, many physiological arousals that might keep
11:31
Speaker 2: you awake, and it's you know, it's at bedtime. It's
11:33
Speaker 2: not when you want them. So like your body temperature
11:35
Speaker 2: might be up, or your heart rate might be up,
11:38
Speaker 2: or your cortisol levels or other hormones might be jumping around,
11:43
Speaker 2: and this is happening at bedtime, which is not when
11:46
Speaker 2: you want that stuff to happen. You may have also
11:49
Speaker 2: gotten it from It could be genetic, It might have
11:53
Speaker 2: something to do with your age. I think women are
11:56
Speaker 2: more likely to have bouts of insomnia.
11:58
Speaker 1: Than men, especially if they are pregnant.
12:01
Speaker 2: A big time. It's like eighty something percent, right, yes, yeah,
12:05
Speaker 2: and if you it can also be comorbid with a
12:09
Speaker 2: lot of different kinds of mental health disorders, especially things
12:13
Speaker 2: like depression and anxiety. I think it was something like
12:16
Speaker 2: eighty eighty five percent of people with depression like also
12:18
Speaker 2: have insomnia.
12:20
Speaker 1: So let's take in a little more to these categories,
12:22
Speaker 1: these baffling, confusing categories. Okay, sure you mentioned transient insomnia.
12:27
Speaker 1: Let's say just a day or two or a couple
12:30
Speaker 1: of days. Say you have, like a good example as
12:32
Speaker 1: an upcoming deadline at work, right, Okay, totally makes sense.
12:37
Speaker 1: But once the deadline comes and goes, no matter what,
12:39
Speaker 1: you're probably going to be able to sleep again. If
12:42
Speaker 1: you have a longer term, say if you have a
12:45
Speaker 1: much bigger problem or a much more extended thing, that's
12:49
Speaker 1: making you upset. That would probably translate into that acute
12:53
Speaker 1: insomnia and then anything over. I saw three months, I
12:58
Speaker 1: saw a month. But if you have trouble sleeping at
13:02
Speaker 1: least three days a week for longer than three months, you,
13:06
Speaker 1: my friend, have skated, unfortunately, into chronic insomnia.
13:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think part of the diagnosis too, is
13:15
Speaker 2: that it has to it has to be affecting your
13:19
Speaker 2: daily your your wake time as well. Right, Yes, so
13:24
Speaker 2: you're not able to concentrate at work, maybe your relationships
13:26
Speaker 2: are suffering, like it's it's really kind of wrecking your
13:28
Speaker 2: daytime hours as well.
13:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, you turn into Edward Norton in fight club.
13:35
Speaker 2: So here's my question. Because I thought I had it sorted.
13:38
Speaker 2: Now I'm not really sure because the DSM and then
13:41
Speaker 2: the what's the official sleep manual called I can't remember
13:47
Speaker 2: sleep Bible. Yeah, sure, let's call it that. But they've
13:51
Speaker 2: they've kind of changed things over the years just to
13:53
Speaker 2: confuse people. But there's also primary and secondary insomnia, right.
13:59
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't believe this is the case anymore. I
14:02
Speaker 1: think they used to divide it up until very recently.
14:06
Speaker 1: But primary insomnia was where the insomnia itself is the disorder.
14:11
Speaker 1: There's not another cause, it's not comorbid with something, it's
14:15
Speaker 1: the problem itself. And they further broke it down into
14:19
Speaker 1: three subcategories of primary insomnia, psycho psycho's physiological, idiopathic, and paradoxical.
14:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, idiopathic literally means there's no cause, and that's the
14:31
Speaker 2: one that they've basically gotten rid of completely. Yes, although
14:35
Speaker 2: I did see that there was still some debate going on.
14:38
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's still some people like that don't want
14:40
Speaker 2: to give that up for some reason. Yeah, they love
14:43
Speaker 2: the name. They basically said though, that like that there
14:46
Speaker 2: is a reason behind I think idiopathic was like, you know,
14:50
Speaker 2: you're sort of a kid that can't sleep, and then
14:53
Speaker 2: you're an adult who can't sleep and there just never
14:55
Speaker 2: is any reason. And they're basically saying, like, that's really
14:58
Speaker 2: not true.
14:59
Speaker 1: You're convinced throughout your life that there really is a
15:01
Speaker 1: monster in your closet. You just can't shake it.
15:04
Speaker 2: That's right.
15:05
Speaker 1: There's also that psychophysiological one I said, where this is
15:08
Speaker 1: the one where you're worried about sleep and supposedly all
15:12
Speaker 1: it takes is one night where there's trouble sleeping. For
15:16
Speaker 1: somebody with psycho physiological insomnia to start worrying that they're
15:22
Speaker 1: not going to get sleep, and then that worry leads
15:25
Speaker 1: them to not get sleep. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy,
15:28
Speaker 1: and that's its own subtype. And then there's that paradoxical one. Right.
15:33
Speaker 2: Paradoxical is sort of confusing because it is a paradox
15:38
Speaker 2: and I guess those are confusing. But that means you
15:41
Speaker 2: have you experience sleeplessness, but you don't have the bad
15:48
Speaker 2: effects during the day somehow.
15:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just strange.
15:52
Speaker 2: Yeah.
15:53
Speaker 1: And then there's secondary insomnia, and that's where the insomnia
15:56
Speaker 1: is a it comes, it arises from a disorder. It's
16:01
Speaker 1: secondary to the actual real issue, where if you solve
16:04
Speaker 1: the first issue, the insomnia should reasonably be expected to
16:08
Speaker 1: go away.
16:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's always been sort of the line share
16:12
Speaker 2: of cases, like eighty percent or more. And I think
16:15
Speaker 2: I read that they basically combined everything because they were like,
16:19
Speaker 2: the treatment's not going to be that wildly different because
16:22
Speaker 2: there are only certain things you can try, and we
16:25
Speaker 2: should try these for everyone that has insomnia.
16:28
Speaker 1: Plus, it's not a good look for psychology as a
16:30
Speaker 1: feel that there is an entire category of we don't
16:34
Speaker 1: know insomnia.
16:36
Speaker 2: Yeah. True.
16:37
Speaker 1: So some of the things that can trigger secondary insomnia.
16:41
Speaker 1: You mentioned some people at risk, like pregnant people or
16:48
Speaker 1: the elderly as you age, but also people with depression,
16:53
Speaker 1: anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder. Apparently eighty five percent of people
16:59
Speaker 1: who have clinical depression also have insomnia. And there's also
17:04
Speaker 1: a lot of drugs that can keep you up as well. Ironically,
17:07
Speaker 1: those same people who have depression, their treatment for depression
17:11
Speaker 1: SSRIs can actually keep them up and give them insomnia
17:15
Speaker 1: as well, so they could they would have double secondary insomnia.
17:18
Speaker 2: It sounds like, yeah, there are all kinds of and
17:22
Speaker 2: these are drugs that people you know, are very popular
17:25
Speaker 2: for a lot of things like cardiovascular disease and asthma
17:30
Speaker 2: and allergies and beta blockers and alpha blockers, like all
17:33
Speaker 2: kinds of very common drugs. One of these side effects
17:36
Speaker 2: oftentimes is sleeplessness, so you know, you always have to
17:41
Speaker 2: take that into consideration for the picture of your overall health.
17:44
Speaker 1: Right, Chuck, I think it's high time we took a break.
17:48
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
17:49
Speaker 1: Okay, Hey, I have another stat for you before we
18:14
Speaker 1: get started again.
18:16
Speaker 2: Let's hear it, stat Man, So Statman, brothers.
18:19
Speaker 1: I saw that your sleep deteriorates with your age, is
18:24
Speaker 1: what I was saying earlier, right, h They apparently quantified
18:27
Speaker 1: it that you you lose about twenty seven minutes per
18:31
Speaker 1: night each decade from middle age.
18:35
Speaker 2: M middle aged, meaning in your forties.
18:37
Speaker 1: That's what I'm guessing is I think it was the
18:39
Speaker 1: beginning of middle age and middle aged.
18:42
Speaker 2: So in your fifties about a half hour less. In
18:44
Speaker 2: your sixties that would be about an hour less.
18:46
Speaker 1: Yep, seventies hour and a half, seventies hour and a half, eighties.
18:49
Speaker 1: Let's not even talk about.
18:50
Speaker 2: It, no man, And it's again dressing.
18:52
Speaker 1: That's not where you're like, oh, I don't need any sleep.
18:55
Speaker 1: I'm a senior citizen. It's it's like my sleep sucks
18:58
Speaker 1: now compared to how it was when I was younger.
19:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's no good. I saw some other low
19:05
Speaker 2: risk categories, or i'm sorry, high risk categories that are
19:09
Speaker 2: not surprising but maybe often overlooked, And one was low
19:12
Speaker 2: income households, and people oftentimes have insomnia because of that stuff.
19:18
Speaker 2: Something you might not think about much.
19:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, worrying about things like bills or paying rent, or yeah,
19:23
Speaker 1: absolutely issues and all that stuff that's that will keep
19:25
Speaker 1: you up at night, and that is that qualifies as
19:27
Speaker 1: insomnia obviously.
19:29
Speaker 2: Any anyone suffering chronic pain. Diabetes is another one. And
19:34
Speaker 2: then the you know, sort of the sleep apnea and
19:37
Speaker 2: like restless leg syndrome and the Jimmy legs stuff like that.
19:40
Speaker 1: I knew you were gonna say it. If you didn't
19:42
Speaker 1: say it, I was going to say it.
19:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all going to keep you up more. And again,
19:48
Speaker 2: something like restless leg syndrome might wake you up, but
19:52
Speaker 2: it's that ability to get back to sleep is when
19:54
Speaker 2: it becomes a big problem.
19:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, so an inability to fall back asleep is sleep maintenance, insomnia.
20:01
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's all these great terms associated.
20:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, they get really specific. Sleep is one of the
20:06
Speaker 2: more studied things.
20:08
Speaker 1: You bet your sweep bippy, it is chuck.
20:12
Speaker 2: As far as the diagnosis, like you were talking about,
20:14
Speaker 2: you can't just stroll in and say like, I can't
20:16
Speaker 2: sleep and they say here's some drugs to help you.
20:18
Speaker 2: Well they might they yeah, actually might, So forget I
20:22
Speaker 2: said that. Scratch that. But it does start with you
20:26
Speaker 2: telling your doctor because they're not with you in the bedroom.
20:30
Speaker 2: So unless you're married to a doctor, So you do
20:33
Speaker 2: go in and say I can't sleep, and what they're
20:35
Speaker 2: probably gonna do is say, well, really describe that, and
20:40
Speaker 2: they may give you something right away, or they may say, well,
20:42
Speaker 2: why don't you keep a sleep diary for a week,
20:44
Speaker 2: because someone might just say like, I don't really know.
20:47
Speaker 2: I just know that I wake up a lot and stuff.
20:49
Speaker 2: And the sleep diary is what makes the patient really
20:54
Speaker 2: kind of track what's going on to help both you
20:58
Speaker 2: and the doctor, like helping you help yourself.
21:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're not just gonna say I don't know.
21:02
Speaker 1: They're gonna be like, I don't know, Okay, I haven't
21:04
Speaker 1: slept in two weeks, Okay, get off my back.
21:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, you see these bags under my eyes.
21:08
Speaker 1: So with a sleep diary, it's pretty straightforward stuff. You know,
21:12
Speaker 1: how much how much did you drink that day? What'd
21:16
Speaker 1: you eat that day? Did you exercise that day? What time?
21:19
Speaker 1: What time did you go to bed, how long did
21:21
Speaker 1: it take for you to get to sleep. Just little
21:25
Speaker 1: details like that that you take for granted when your
21:28
Speaker 1: sleep isn't problematic, right, but that you can really kind
21:33
Speaker 1: of observe and come up with some real easy things
21:37
Speaker 1: that you can change in your life that might help
21:41
Speaker 1: you go to sleep. There's something called sleep hygiene.
21:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's what you're describing, basically, is someone's
21:47
Speaker 2: sleep hygiene, whether it's good or bad.
21:49
Speaker 1: Right, So what is sleep hygiene? Chuck? Which is better
21:52
Speaker 1: than hygienic utensil but still not great.
21:55
Speaker 2: Well, it's exactly what you were saying, which is, do
21:59
Speaker 2: you exercise too close to your sleep? Were you looking
22:02
Speaker 2: at a screen that emits blue lights? Like? Right? But
22:05
Speaker 2: it's a huge one these days of course. Like right
22:07
Speaker 2: before you go to sleep, how you know, did you eat?
22:12
Speaker 1: What?
22:12
Speaker 2: What did you drink? Had you had any kind of stimulant?
22:15
Speaker 2: And alcohol is really bad as well, like drinking alcohol
22:18
Speaker 2: even though this not something you might think of as
22:20
Speaker 2: a stimulant.
22:21
Speaker 1: Did you do a big hog's leg of cocaine right
22:24
Speaker 1: before you went to bed?
22:25
Speaker 2: Sure? The sleep hygiene, it's sort of all the things
22:29
Speaker 2: that go into you know, do you have good good
22:34
Speaker 2: light blocking in your room, sound blocking? Like all of
22:37
Speaker 2: the stuff that goes into a good night's sleep is
22:39
Speaker 2: sleep hygiene.
22:40
Speaker 1: Right, And so all those things you don't want to do,
22:44
Speaker 1: like actually you'd think exercising would be a good thing
22:47
Speaker 1: to do. No, it's actually it really energizes you. If
22:51
Speaker 1: you've ever paid attention after you you exercise, like, yes,
22:54
Speaker 1: your body is so or sore and you're kind of slow,
22:56
Speaker 1: but you feel good. You don't want to do that.
23:00
Speaker 1: Actually want to take up yoga before you sleep?
23:03
Speaker 2: It makes me sleepy.
23:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, especially if you do specifically yoga designed
23:08
Speaker 1: for bedtime, which is basically just some like kind of
23:11
Speaker 1: light stretches ten to fifteen minutes. If you're having trouble
23:14
Speaker 1: sleeping and you don't try bedtime yoga, you're welcome.
23:18
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I do morning yoga and I find that
23:22
Speaker 2: I want to take a nap after.
23:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really feels kid though.
23:25
Speaker 2: I love that it does. They also say, as far
23:28
Speaker 2: as your sleep hygiene, that you want to have a
23:31
Speaker 2: regular I mean, if you're doing it right. I know
23:35
Speaker 2: it's hard for people, but you try to have a
23:37
Speaker 2: regular bedtime and wake time, and that includes weekends. So
23:42
Speaker 2: if you're having trouble sleeping and you're doing that thing
23:44
Speaker 2: where you're like, you know, you're staying up on the
23:47
Speaker 2: weekends and stuff like that, you're not doing yourselves any favors.
23:50
Speaker 1: No, Also, you want your bedroom to be conducive to sleep.
23:55
Speaker 1: Remember that was one of the things that insomnia had
23:58
Speaker 1: to call it. You had to have enough time and
24:00
Speaker 1: a place to sleep. That was great. And they say
24:03
Speaker 1: your bedroom should be only used for sleeping and sex.
24:07
Speaker 1: That's it, and only if you're only if you're consenting
24:11
Speaker 1: adult above eighteen and you're in a loving relationship.
24:16
Speaker 2: Okay, dad, So which.
24:19
Speaker 1: Makes a lot of sense because you come to train yourself,
24:22
Speaker 1: you associate your bed with sleeping, so that when you
24:26
Speaker 1: go to bed and you see your bed and you're
24:28
Speaker 1: in your bedroom, you fall asleep much more quickly because
24:32
Speaker 1: you've trained yourself to think of that's the place that
24:35
Speaker 1: I sleep. That's not for doing taxes, snorting a lot
24:40
Speaker 1: of cocaine. It's it's where I sleep.
24:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, our buddy John Hodgman has long established
24:50
Speaker 2: precedent that he feels very strongly that you should have
24:55
Speaker 2: the if you're in a partnered relationship, have the very
24:58
Speaker 2: largest bed that you can afford without it being like
25:01
Speaker 2: a financial burden, right, and that we'll fit even if
25:05
Speaker 2: it doesn't fit that good. He says, you should get
25:07
Speaker 2: one if if you can afford it, like just squeeze
25:10
Speaker 2: it in there. And he says the ideal coupled sleep
25:14
Speaker 2: situation is too completely separate bedrooms separated by a courtyard
25:20
Speaker 2: with a fountain in the middle of right, and that's
25:23
Speaker 2: how you get the best sleep.
25:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that people.
25:26
Speaker 2: People weren't meant to sleep together.
25:27
Speaker 1: It's it's definitely a thing that I think people are
25:30
Speaker 1: finally like, Okay, this might not be the best idea, Like,
25:34
Speaker 1: we might need to find some other way around. People
25:36
Speaker 1: have come up with workarounds. Apparently, more and more architects
25:39
Speaker 1: are being asked to create two primary bedrooms rather than
25:43
Speaker 1: just the one.
25:44
Speaker 2: Hey, man, if you can pull that off, I say,
25:47
Speaker 2: go for it. It doesn't doesn't mean anything about your
25:50
Speaker 2: marriage that you want to have good sleep, So it
25:52
Speaker 2: doesn't just get ready. You can even cuddle together and
25:55
Speaker 2: then say and good night and then get up and
25:58
Speaker 2: go to your separate places. Yeah, and in the morning
26:00
Speaker 2: you can scarry on in there and jump into bed
26:03
Speaker 2: and cuddle in the morning if you want. I say
26:05
Speaker 2: this as someone who does this. We're not smart enough
26:07
Speaker 2: we sleep together and keep each other up all night?
26:09
Speaker 1: Do you really not?
26:11
Speaker 2: Really? I mean our animals will keep us up. Yeah,
26:15
Speaker 2: I feel bad for Emily. The cats literally lay on
26:17
Speaker 2: top of her body. Two cats laying on top of
26:20
Speaker 2: her body.
26:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, you me does not.
26:23
Speaker 2: She has a dog in the foot space. It's problematic.
26:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Mama will will tap you me to roll
26:30
Speaker 1: over and yeah, spooner, and or she'll say like, I
26:35
Speaker 1: want to get on the other side of you, and
26:37
Speaker 1: rather than just climb over, you mean, she'll wake her
26:40
Speaker 1: up to let her know she's about to climb over. Yeah,
26:42
Speaker 1: you mean's not the best at sleep maintenance, so it
26:46
Speaker 1: takes her a while to get back to sleep. So yeah,
26:49
Speaker 1: and then other times I snore, apparently, I'm told. So
26:53
Speaker 1: there'll be times where I'm just like, okay, you you
26:56
Speaker 1: need some sleep. I'm going to sleep out on the
26:58
Speaker 1: couch tonight.
27:00
Speaker 2: Heard you snore before? Really Guatemala, baby, So I do snore.
27:06
Speaker 2: I mean, hey, you snored in Guatemala. That's all I know.
27:09
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was country specific. That's the
27:12
Speaker 2: only time we've betted down together. I know everyone thinks
27:14
Speaker 2: we sleep in our own bunk. But getting back to U,
27:19
Speaker 2: me and Momo, that's like proof that you can be
27:20
Speaker 2: a small dog and still disrupt sleep. Oh yes, it's
27:23
Speaker 2: not like size necessarily.
27:25
Speaker 1: And then also don't forget Umy stays in bed to
27:28
Speaker 1: let Momo sleep in. That's how that's how kind and
27:32
Speaker 1: generous Yumi is Tomo man, and how much Mo takes
27:36
Speaker 1: advantage of me.
27:37
Speaker 2: I'd be elbowing that dog remember the spoon last night.
27:40
Speaker 1: You couldn't because she'd just look at you and like
27:42
Speaker 1: believe times and you'd be like, do whatever you.
27:44
Speaker 2: Want, dooey eyes, I love it. Uh. We talked about TV. Yeah,
27:49
Speaker 2: you definitely shouldn't watch I mean everyone, that's generally when
27:54
Speaker 2: people watch TV, or at least you should. If you're
27:56
Speaker 2: sitting around watching TV all day, then that's that's a
27:58
Speaker 2: problem in and of itself. But people I think generally
28:01
Speaker 2: watch TV at night is in their evening viewing. But
28:04
Speaker 2: try and cut it, cut it off and give yourself
28:07
Speaker 2: a transition period before you actually try to fall asleep.
28:10
Speaker 1: Or and this is easy if you are on like
28:13
Speaker 1: a device or a laptop or something, there's you can
28:16
Speaker 1: switch over from blue light to a warmer light and
28:19
Speaker 1: it will have less of an effect on you. If
28:21
Speaker 1: your TV can do that, bully for you. One of
28:24
Speaker 1: the other things that if you have trouble sleeping is
28:27
Speaker 1: getting get your TV out of your bedroom. Remember, like
28:31
Speaker 1: the bed is for sleeping, it's not for watching TV.
28:36
Speaker 2: It is for me.
28:37
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, if you have trouble sleeping, this is
28:40
Speaker 1: an easy fix for you. You watch TV and then you
28:43
Speaker 1: go to bed. You don't go to bed and watch TV.
28:46
Speaker 1: If you have trouble sleeping, do what you want. I mean,
28:48
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's that's just an easy solution if you're
28:51
Speaker 1: having trouble sleeping.
28:53
Speaker 2: Oh no, for sure. If I had trouble sleeping, then
28:55
Speaker 2: I would get that TV out of there for sure.
28:58
Speaker 2: And I think sort of one of the takeaways there
29:01
Speaker 2: is is to make going to bed like a transition
29:05
Speaker 2: from doing something to doing something else. However, as we'll see,
29:09
Speaker 2: and we'll talk about this in a little bit, like
29:11
Speaker 2: sometimes that transition can bring on the panic of like,
29:15
Speaker 2: oh crap, like I have insomnia and now I'm going
29:18
Speaker 2: to the dreaded place and we'll, you know, we'll talk
29:22
Speaker 2: about workarounds there. Should we take another break or should
29:26
Speaker 2: we wait?
29:27
Speaker 1: I think we should take a break.
29:28
Speaker 2: Okay, let's take a break and we'll take another little
29:31
Speaker 2: nap and we'll be right back. So Are we at
29:56
Speaker 2: the place where we talk about fixing it and not
30:00
Speaker 2: fixing it and not just in ways of improving sleep hygiene.
30:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so, because the other.
30:06
Speaker 2: Ways are basically a few it's drugs, which we'll talk about,
30:09
Speaker 2: and then a couple of different therapies, and like sleep retraining.
30:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some They almost sound mean, but apparently they're
30:17
Speaker 1: really effective, some of the retraining. Yeah, well let's talk
30:20
Speaker 1: about it, Chuck.
30:21
Speaker 2: All right, Well, obviously relaxation techniques, meditation, controlled breathing, all
30:29
Speaker 2: these sort of low level relaxing behavior with therapies can
30:34
Speaker 2: really help you out if you can get in that
30:36
Speaker 2: kind of mind space.
30:37
Speaker 1: Yes, And then we talked about how just the idea
30:42
Speaker 1: of not being able to go to sleep can make
30:44
Speaker 1: you lose sleep and cause insomnia, just the fear of that.
30:48
Speaker 1: So there's a technique called remaining passively awake, where you're like,
30:52
Speaker 1: I don't care if I go to sleep or not.
30:54
Speaker 1: I'm just staying up. It doesn't matter, and if I
30:58
Speaker 1: fall asleep then great, if I don't, whatever, It's like
31:02
Speaker 1: you're changing your mindset so that you're not worried about it.
31:05
Speaker 1: You're just kind of taking a more casual approach to it,
31:08
Speaker 1: and apparently that can have the effect of removing the
31:12
Speaker 1: anxiety enough that you will fall asleep, kind of whether
31:15
Speaker 1: you mean to or not.
31:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just man, I can think. I can't imagine
31:21
Speaker 2: what it's like to be so desperate that you're trying
31:23
Speaker 2: all these different things, and imagine even trying these things
31:27
Speaker 2: will bring on anxiety. I have seen a thing where
31:31
Speaker 2: the bedroom can be such a like they recommend that
31:35
Speaker 2: you just once you leave your bed in the morning
31:38
Speaker 2: if you can, if you're in a studio apartment or something,
31:41
Speaker 2: then that really stinks. But like close that bedroom door
31:45
Speaker 2: and do not go in there at all all day long.
31:47
Speaker 2: Put it on it like it's not there. Yeah, exactly,
31:51
Speaker 2: put a lock on the door. What else?
31:54
Speaker 1: What about supplements, Well, one of the ones that people
31:56
Speaker 1: use a lot, chuck is melatonin, and it's a natural supplement.
32:01
Speaker 1: They as a matter of fact, they make it. Some
32:02
Speaker 1: of it from the pineal glands of animals. Did you
32:05
Speaker 1: know that.
32:07
Speaker 2: I did. I think most of it's synthesized, but I
32:09
Speaker 2: did know that some of it came from animals, And.
32:11
Speaker 1: You don't want those. You want the synthetic ones or
32:14
Speaker 1: maybe ones from microorganisms. But they say, like, yeah, you
32:18
Speaker 1: can take melatonin. If you have like maybe jet lag,
32:21
Speaker 1: you can take it for a night or two. Or
32:24
Speaker 1: if you're if you have transient insomnia or your ship
32:29
Speaker 1: has just changed, you're doing shift work, and it's just
32:32
Speaker 1: melatonin can't help. It does it's our brains produce it
32:36
Speaker 1: in response to darkness, and it does help us sleep.
32:39
Speaker 1: The thing is is over time prolonged juice. Like if
32:44
Speaker 1: you have chronic insomnia, you do not want to use
32:47
Speaker 1: melatonin because it can have all sorts of dileterious effects,
32:53
Speaker 1: like because it controls not just how you sleep, but
32:56
Speaker 1: also your blood vessel tone, your body temperature, your blood sugar,
33:00
Speaker 1: and you can mess with those things inadvertently over time
33:02
Speaker 1: by taking melatonin.
33:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that goes, it goes. For parents, you know
33:07
Speaker 2: they have the kids sleepy gummies.
33:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, and.
33:12
Speaker 2: We will use those very like half of one, very judiciously.
33:17
Speaker 2: But you don't wanna you know, the jury's kind of
33:19
Speaker 2: still out, but I don't know for me, you don't
33:21
Speaker 2: want to be given your kid like a sleep aid
33:23
Speaker 2: every single night.
33:24
Speaker 1: There's a lot of legal metaphors you just used.
33:26
Speaker 2: Well, I just you know, I have seen like all kinds. Like,
33:29
Speaker 2: I don't think all the evidence is in on like
33:32
Speaker 2: kids taking melatonin. Yeah, but to me that's reason enough
33:35
Speaker 2: to where like you wouldn't want to give your kid
33:37
Speaker 2: a meloton and gummy every night even though, yeah, you know,
33:40
Speaker 2: you can be desperate as a parent when your kid
33:42
Speaker 2: won't go to sleep.
33:43
Speaker 1: I mean they used to use and probably still use,
33:45
Speaker 1: like benadryl. Right, didn't that knock kids out?
33:49
Speaker 2: I don't know.
33:50
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure some parents do use that really all right, Yeah,
33:55
Speaker 1: and then cough syrup if you're really desperate. I'm sure.
33:59
Speaker 2: The there're other, you know, supplements. There's not a ton
34:03
Speaker 2: of like scientific evidence for stuff like aromatherapy to fall
34:08
Speaker 2: asleep and stuff like that and other supplements. But like,
34:12
Speaker 2: you know, if it's if it's safe to try, then
34:14
Speaker 2: you can give it a whirl, is what I think
34:19
Speaker 2: as far as that stuff goes, Like, try some aromatherapy.
34:21
Speaker 2: It might work for you. I don't think it's gonna hurt.
34:24
Speaker 1: Probably not unless it like catches your curtains on fire.
34:28
Speaker 2: Like tripp a fan is another one, and Valerian over
34:32
Speaker 2: the counter seth.
34:33
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was. I've never taken it
34:35
Speaker 1: as a pill. I've always made tea from Valerian root. Yeah,
34:39
Speaker 1: and it's an acquired taste for sure, and acquired smell,
34:43
Speaker 1: but it does have a very mellowing effect on me
34:45
Speaker 1: for sure.
34:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. And CBD. You know what, I'd meant to look
34:50
Speaker 2: into this because there are all kinds of CBD gummies
34:53
Speaker 2: and things like that, like sleep gummies.
34:54
Speaker 1: So have you ever have you taken CBD gummies and
34:58
Speaker 1: been able to like, no, noticed any difference in your
35:01
Speaker 1: sleep or anything.
35:02
Speaker 2: Well, I don't need them for sleep, so I haven't
35:05
Speaker 2: tried it, Okay, but I know people who.
35:07
Speaker 1: Do and they report good things from it.
35:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know who knows we should do one
35:12
Speaker 2: on CBD because it's sort of the wild West it is.
35:16
Speaker 1: Did you see Woody Harrelson's brother has his.
35:18
Speaker 2: Own line of it, Matthew McConaughey.
35:21
Speaker 1: And he doesn't say he's Woody Harrelson's brother, but his
35:24
Speaker 1: last name is Harrelson. And if he's not Woody Harrelson's brother,
35:27
Speaker 1: I will eat a hat. I have a few of them.
35:31
Speaker 2: You saw that thing about he McConaughey maybe being brothers
35:34
Speaker 2: for real? No, Yeah, that was recent. They discovered. I
35:37
Speaker 2: can't remember, so I'm not going to try and act
35:40
Speaker 2: like I remember the exact terms. But it was something
35:44
Speaker 2: about some they found some possible family link. Wow, And
35:48
Speaker 2: there's a lot of similarities with them, and they're very
35:51
Speaker 2: very very close friends and a lot of like and
35:54
Speaker 2: they were both kind of like, Man, I wonder if
35:56
Speaker 2: this is true. So I'm not sure if they're looking
35:58
Speaker 2: into it or not. So I I think her mom
36:01
Speaker 2: while her while McConaughey's mom was divorced from his dad
36:05
Speaker 2: and they eventually got remarried at least once. I think
36:10
Speaker 2: that she knew Woody Harrelson's dad and was like in
36:14
Speaker 2: the same town at the same time, like nine months
36:18
Speaker 2: before one of them was conceived or something. I think
36:20
Speaker 2: it was something like that.
36:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we can't mention Woody Harrelson's dad and not
36:24
Speaker 1: remind everybody that he was a suspect in the JFK
36:27
Speaker 1: assassination at one point, the very famous three tramps who
36:31
Speaker 1: were jacked up by the cops right afterward, one of
36:34
Speaker 1: them was Woody Harrelson's dad.
36:36
Speaker 2: It's right, And didn't Donald Trump say Ted Cruz's dad
36:39
Speaker 2: was in on it or something?
36:40
Speaker 1: I think yeah, I think so. And then the internet
36:43
Speaker 1: made Ted Cruz say that he's not the Zodiac Killer.
36:46
Speaker 1: You remember that. Oh yeah, he's like I wasn't even
36:49
Speaker 1: boyed he was killing people or I was like five
36:52
Speaker 1: years old, like they made him say it.
36:55
Speaker 2: Oh boy.
36:56
Speaker 1: So you talked about prescriptions and you know that.
37:00
Speaker 2: May like real drugs, Yes, those.
37:03
Speaker 1: Can help apparently, but they're they're meant for short periods
37:07
Speaker 1: of time because you can very quickly develop a dependence
37:10
Speaker 1: on them.
37:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, most of them, like ambien we've talked about, uh,
37:15
Speaker 2: and then lu Nesta and these are of course the
37:18
Speaker 2: brand names of zolpidem and etso py clone. I think, uh,
37:26
Speaker 2: those are those are kind of known to be habit
37:28
Speaker 2: forming and for short periods. But I think I looked
37:32
Speaker 2: up that ramelteon that was in the in the stuff
37:39
Speaker 2: that was in our article, but that I think is
37:42
Speaker 2: supposed to be non habit forming and has fewer side
37:45
Speaker 2: effects as something like ambient.
37:47
Speaker 1: Ramelte I know, I didn't see that anywhere. Yeah, okay, yes, okay, it's.
37:52
Speaker 2: A benzodiazepine receptor antagonists.
37:56
Speaker 1: Right, and but I think it's a melatonin receptor antagonists
37:59
Speaker 1: or agonist. It makes melotonin like crazy.
38:03
Speaker 2: It makes an ag They.
38:06
Speaker 1: Also might prescribe any depressants in low dosages, especially if
38:12
Speaker 1: you have anxiety over not sleeping, which can help as well,
38:16
Speaker 1: but in particular with ambient and lunesta and those sedative hypnotics.
38:22
Speaker 1: Those are the ones where like they come with warnings
38:24
Speaker 1: saying like be aware, like you may drive your car
38:27
Speaker 1: while you're sleeping. Yeah, you may like have sex or
38:31
Speaker 1: do all sorts of risky behavior. Yeah, eat a stick
38:34
Speaker 1: of butters like that, that perennial one, but it really
38:38
Speaker 1: does happen.
38:40
Speaker 2: What if someone read that is like eat a stick
38:42
Speaker 2: of butter and they're like, yeah, so what's the problem, right?
38:44
Speaker 1: I do that while I'm wide awake.
38:47
Speaker 2: I used to catch Ruby when she was younger, just
38:50
Speaker 2: getting into the butter.
38:51
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, do you guys keep get butter around?
38:53
Speaker 2: I don't remember, of course. And she'll see her with
38:56
Speaker 2: a big piece of butter on a fork and like
38:58
Speaker 2: what are you doing? Just like it's so good, it
39:00
Speaker 2: is good, but you keep this assaulted? Well, we have both,
39:04
Speaker 2: but you know, I said you probably shouldn't do that,
39:08
Speaker 2: but it's like, you know, you're also five years old
39:10
Speaker 2: and a pad of Butter. It's not going to kill
39:12
Speaker 2: you right now. Just watch out. That's how they hook you.
39:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, big Butter.
39:18
Speaker 2: Should we talk about this world record stuff?
39:21
Speaker 1: I think so. So.
39:23
Speaker 2: There have been a lot of people over the years.
39:26
Speaker 2: It used to be a thing where people would test
39:29
Speaker 2: the limits of human sleeplessness and enter contests or vie
39:37
Speaker 2: for the world record and stuff like that, and through
39:40
Speaker 2: the decades there have been many, many records broken until
39:45
Speaker 2: they basically the Guinness Company stopped in nineteen ninety seven
39:50
Speaker 2: said we're going to stop monitoring this because it's like
39:53
Speaker 2: straight up dangerous.
39:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. But by the time they stopped, someone had gotten
39:58
Speaker 1: to eighteen days. He's twenty one hours and forty minutes,
40:02
Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty three hours. A guy named Robert
40:04
Speaker 1: MacDonald from I think Modesto, California in nineteen eighty six.
40:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a twenty seven year old stunt man. Yeah,
40:13
Speaker 2: and that's four hundred and fifty three and change hours.
40:18
Speaker 2: And this was a rocking chair marathon, which was another
40:21
Speaker 2: one of the ladies from the UK, Maureen Weston, who
40:24
Speaker 2: was a record holder at one point, she was also
40:26
Speaker 2: in a rocking chair marathon.
40:27
Speaker 1: The guy who gets the most press though for having
40:31
Speaker 1: stayed up the longest actually came in like fourth or
40:33
Speaker 1: fifth by now. But his name is Randy Gardner, and
40:37
Speaker 1: back in nineteen sixty three, he was a seventeen year
40:40
Speaker 1: old who was looking to win a science experiment contest, right,
40:44
Speaker 1: so he decided to stay up as long as he
40:46
Speaker 1: could and break the record, which I think his record
40:51
Speaker 1: that he set was eleven days and twenty five minutes,
40:53
Speaker 1: which was longer than the record at the time, and
40:57
Speaker 1: at that time, I think in the nineteenth sixties, it
41:01
Speaker 1: was like a thing that DJs did. They would just
41:03
Speaker 1: stay yeah, for as long as they could. And if
41:06
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken before Randy Gardner, like the limit was
41:09
Speaker 1: around eight or nine days, so he really shattered the record.
41:12
Speaker 1: But other people had taken stimulants and really lost their
41:16
Speaker 1: poop as a result. They basically took stimulants for eight
41:21
Speaker 1: days in a row and didn't sleep. Of course, it's
41:23
Speaker 1: going to mess with you, so he learned not to
41:26
Speaker 1: do that, but instead he was distracted. He had two
41:29
Speaker 1: friends that stayed with him, and eventually a doctor named
41:32
Speaker 1: doctor William Dement who would take Randy Gardner to go
41:36
Speaker 1: play like pinball to keep them awake sometimes.
41:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that one is one of the
41:42
Speaker 2: most well known because because of that doctor and the
41:45
Speaker 2: fact that he hung out and sort of quote unquote
41:47
Speaker 2: studied him and you know, he experienced what you would think,
41:51
Speaker 2: which is hallucinations, delusions, memory problems, perception issues, motor control
41:56
Speaker 2: issues PCP. Yeah, all the stuff that would expect when
42:01
Speaker 2: you can't get sleep yep.
42:03
Speaker 1: But he also said that he believes that it had
42:07
Speaker 1: lasting damage. He developed Alzheimer's in his sixties. He attributes
42:13
Speaker 1: to that he also developed insomnia later on in life too.
42:18
Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, oh yeah, he couldn't sleep six hours
42:21
Speaker 1: a night.
42:22
Speaker 2: Geez. All right, so maybe we should finish on the
42:25
Speaker 2: long promised cognitive behavioral therapy routine aka sleep boot camp.
42:33
Speaker 2: And then what was the other one called.
42:34
Speaker 1: SCT stimulus therapy stimulus.
42:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because those used in conjunction seem to
42:41
Speaker 2: be sort of the gold standard.
42:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was an Australian study that found out that
42:46
Speaker 1: if you put those two together over the course of
42:48
Speaker 1: five weeks, say goodbye insomnia.
42:52
Speaker 2: Right. So there are different ways to do, you know,
42:56
Speaker 2: all kinds of cognitive behavioral therapy, but one common sleep
43:00
Speaker 2: boot camp would be something where you go into this program.
43:05
Speaker 2: You're supposed to I believe, the night before you're supposed
43:09
Speaker 2: to sleep no more than five hours, so you go
43:12
Speaker 2: in sort of sleepy, and then when you go in,
43:15
Speaker 2: you go to a sleep lab around bedtime, and then
43:17
Speaker 2: you spend the next twenty five hours basically in little
43:24
Speaker 2: thirty minute fifty different thirty minute sessions trying to fall asleep.
43:28
Speaker 1: You spend the next twenty five hours in hell.
43:30
Speaker 2: Essentially, it sounds pretty bad because the goal here is
43:35
Speaker 2: they want you to know that you can fall asleep
43:39
Speaker 2: quicker than you usually do and what that feels like.
43:42
Speaker 2: And they do that by like saying, all right, try
43:44
Speaker 2: and fall asleep, and you try and fall asleep, and
43:47
Speaker 2: if they do fall asleep, after three minutes, they wake
43:49
Speaker 2: you up and say, hey, do you think were you
43:52
Speaker 2: asleep just now? And if you say no, then they say, well,
43:56
Speaker 2: guess what you were Or you say yes, they'll say congratulations,
44:00
Speaker 2: you were, and then they just keep doing that over
44:02
Speaker 2: and over, so you're getting really, really more and more tired,
44:05
Speaker 2: so that sleep deprivation builds up until you kind of
44:09
Speaker 2: train yourself to fall asleep.
44:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then just to really mess with you. Every
44:12
Speaker 1: time you do fall asleep, they change their clothes real quick,
44:16
Speaker 1: so you're really disoriented when you wake up put on
44:20
Speaker 1: a wig. Yeah, but so apparently in twenty five hours
44:23
Speaker 1: this works, like that boot camp will will help cure you.
44:26
Speaker 1: And like you said, it shows people, yes, you can
44:29
Speaker 1: fall asleep and that the sleep deprivation that's generated doesn't hurt.
44:33
Speaker 2: Either, Right, So that's that. Then the set stimulus control
44:39
Speaker 2: therapy is when they say, go to your this is
44:43
Speaker 2: not at a sleep place or whatever, it's just in
44:45
Speaker 2: your regular house. Go to bed, and then after twenty minutes,
44:50
Speaker 2: if you're not asleep, get up and get out of
44:52
Speaker 2: that room and go to another room of your house
44:55
Speaker 2: and like read or meditate or do something that you
44:59
Speaker 2: know will relax, to use something that has proven to
45:01
Speaker 2: relax you, and then go back and try again. And
45:04
Speaker 2: if that doesn't work in twenty minutes, get up and
45:06
Speaker 2: leave the room again. But don't lay there in bed
45:09
Speaker 2: essentially for an hour or two, tossing and turning and stressing.
45:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the very least, you're distracting yourself from worrying
45:17
Speaker 1: laying in bed worrying by going and doing something relaxing
45:19
Speaker 1: like reading a book. How else all listen to a
45:21
Speaker 1: podcast that's a good one and you just repeat is
45:24
Speaker 1: necessary until you fall asleep. And apparently five weeks of
45:28
Speaker 1: stimulus control therapy following a sleep boot camp program of
45:32
Speaker 1: twenty five hours, this Australian study found that that is
45:37
Speaker 1: a really great way to get past chronic consomnia without
45:41
Speaker 1: any drugs.
45:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like that's the good good news is I
45:45
Speaker 2: roundly found everywhere I looked that most people can cure
45:50
Speaker 2: their ensomn. That is the good news. And a lot
45:54
Speaker 2: of the people who a lot of people never try.
45:58
Speaker 2: I think I saw or I just did the math
46:00
Speaker 2: that was something like sixty something percent of people. No, no,
46:04
Speaker 2: it was like eighty something percent say that they should
46:07
Speaker 2: get more sleep or they don't sleep well, I think
46:10
Speaker 2: was the stat but only like sixty percent do something
46:13
Speaker 2: about it, so or maybe it was even less. It
46:15
Speaker 2: ended up being like twenty or thirty percent of people
46:17
Speaker 2: like have insomnia and don't seek help.
46:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of them are like, well,
46:21
Speaker 1: wait a minute. To cure my insomnia, I need to
46:24
Speaker 1: stop looking at my phone right before bed. Then forget it.
46:27
Speaker 1: I'll just deal with the insomnia.
46:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, or just you know, struggle through it. And I
46:33
Speaker 2: think the same goes with any mental health issue, like
46:37
Speaker 2: so many people just don't seek help and try and
46:40
Speaker 2: figure it out for themselves, and that it's oftentimes the
46:42
Speaker 2: very first step to solving your problem.
46:44
Speaker 1: There's one other thing, too, Chuck, that I want to
46:46
Speaker 1: talk about before we sign off. Here.
46:49
Speaker 2: Let's do it counting cheap apparently, actually I didn't get
46:53
Speaker 2: to read the case, so teach me this up.
46:55
Speaker 1: It not only doesn't work, it can actually keep you
46:59
Speaker 1: up longer.
47:01
Speaker 2: I could see that.
47:01
Speaker 1: They think that it originated with medieval shepherds who devised
47:05
Speaker 1: the counting system to keep track of their flock. And
47:09
Speaker 1: the upshot of it is that it's so boring that
47:12
Speaker 1: it would put anybody to sleep, even somebody who had
47:15
Speaker 1: trouble sleeping. But that's not actually the case, And instead,
47:19
Speaker 1: researchers suggest, if you're at the point where you're trying
47:23
Speaker 1: to count sheep, instead envision a really relaxing place like
47:26
Speaker 1: a beach or a mountain cabin or whatever whatever relaxes you. Yeah,
47:33
Speaker 1: exactly on Black Friday, And that concentrating on that and
47:39
Speaker 1: it being kind of engrossing is what will help you
47:41
Speaker 1: drift off to sleep, or at the very least, it
47:44
Speaker 1: will distract you from worrying about not sleeping enough that
47:48
Speaker 1: you might fall asleep.
47:50
Speaker 2: You know that cheap counting thing we may have talked
47:52
Speaker 2: about that that sounds for.
47:53
Speaker 1: Micro Yeah, it's an understanding trope. Yeah. Well, since Chuck
47:59
Speaker 1: said yeah, everybody, that means it's time for a listener mail.
48:04
Speaker 2: I'm going to call this longtime listener. Hey, guys and Jerry.
48:09
Speaker 2: I don't know what counts as a longtime listener, but
48:11
Speaker 2: I have been listening for over half my life. I
48:15
Speaker 2: think that counts Nova. This is from Nova. That counts Nova.
48:20
Speaker 2: I can't even remember when I first started listening. I
48:22
Speaker 2: remember I first remember listening when I was ten or
48:25
Speaker 2: eleven maybe, and I used to listen to back to
48:28
Speaker 2: back episodes in spare free time while playing Minecraft. I
48:33
Speaker 2: just graduated college with a degree in mechanical engineering, and
48:37
Speaker 2: I'm often working an awesome job where I get to
48:39
Speaker 2: work with planes. I just want to give you guys
48:42
Speaker 2: a big thank you from the bottom of my heart
48:44
Speaker 2: for what you do. I consider you guys role models
48:46
Speaker 2: in my life, and I strive have your genuine curiosity
48:49
Speaker 2: and open mindedness every day. Your podcast got me through
48:52
Speaker 2: some tough times, and I always knew that I could
48:55
Speaker 2: turn on some stuff you should Know and feel better.
48:57
Speaker 2: Thanks for all the young minds that you have sharpened,
49:00
Speaker 2: and thank you from a big NERD for giving me
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Speaker 2: so many fun facts, a curious nature, and a huge
49:05
Speaker 2: love of learning. I would never have even considered or
49:09
Speaker 2: finished an engineering degree without the tools that you gave me.
49:13
Speaker 2: And I hope to inspire other engineers the way you
49:15
Speaker 2: inspired me, and I hope to be an even longer
49:18
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49:22
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49:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a great email, full stop, exactly, no
49:27
Speaker 1: pity comments, no, no, thanks for letting us know. Nova,
49:30
Speaker 1: that's really cool. And if you want to be like
49:33
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49:35
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49:39
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49:47
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