Latest / Moral Injury Support Network Podcast / A Vietnam Veteran’s Faith-Based Path Out Of Burnout

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A Vietnam Veteran’s Faith-Based Path Out Of Burnout · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, everybody.
• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Dr.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: Daniel Roberts, President and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated, a 501c3 based in North Carolina dedicated to helping women veterans recover from trauma experienced while serving in the military.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Today we have a guest, great guest with us, Keith A.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Cole, is an author, speaker, and Christian recovery advocate whose life was transformed after surviving burnout after Vietnam War, wounded three times, multiple deaths, and the pursuit of success ultimately left him empty.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Through his personal journey of surrender and restoration, Keith discovered that burnout is often more physic more than physical exhaustion, is a spiritual invitation to return to God's design for abundant life.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: I say amen to that.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: He is the author of Burnout, God's Recovery Plan, where he shares practical biblical principles that help people move from striving to surrender, from exhaustion to peace, and from self-reliance to dependence on Christ.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Key's passion is helping professionals, leaders, caregivers, and anyone running on empty to find lasting hope, healing, and purpose through a deeper relationship with God.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Today Key speaks to audiences seeking authentic conversations about burnout, faith, identity, recovery, and living with purpose.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the show, Keith.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's great to have you.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Dr.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Roberts.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm uh it's really my privilege to be here, and I'm very grateful to you.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you very much, sir.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I look forward to having this conversation.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think um, you know, I think a lot of ministers, uh myself included, have at times really suffered with burn through burnout.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and we often don't recognize that we're so busy trying to help people, and we have sort of a God complex sometimes where we think if we don't do it, no one else will, so we have to do it.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: And and then we find ourselves at the end of a rope and we got nothing left.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: So um this is a really important topic.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: But before we get into, I know you've got some books out there and stuff.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: Just give us a little bit of your background.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: You you're you're a veteran yourself, uh, back in in the uh the war that America likes to forget about, and that's Vietnam.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually uh uh my uh uh trauma actually began before the Marine Corps.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, as a as a kid growing up, I was uh my goal was definitely and my dream was to be a Methodist minister.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I would uh as a kid, I would I would play preacher and I'd preach to my uh imaginary congregation, you know, that set on the stairway.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and ever every once in a while, um uh being a regular churchgoer and everything, I I knew how people acted in church sometimes, and I would have to call out a couple of those people in my congregation to uh settle down and listen while I preach.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: But uh but I uh I really enjoyed that and I knew that as soon as I graduated uh from high school I'd be going to college and and then the seminary.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Then as a senior in high school, my dad died.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: He was fifty-two.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um then a railroad all of his life, so he's very strong individual, uh bigger and stronger than me, for sure.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew it couldn't be his fault that he had a stroke and and died at a young age.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I blamed God and totally turned my life upside down.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Became very rebellious.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so my my dream of uh becoming a minister actually had I have older brothers who were in the marines.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so I was my plan was to go to seminary, become a minister, and go into the navy and be a chaplain and get assigned to the Marine Corps.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Since the Marines don't have their own chaplains, it's right their Navy.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so that that was kind of my goal as a kid, and that just totally uh when my dad died, I became totally rebellious, everything blamed God, I was mad, I was angry all the time.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh actually even started smoking and uh and and drinking beer when I could still underage, so you know when I could get a hold of it.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: I graduated uh through that whole process.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: I it's all about me.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing to do with my younger brother and sister and my mother.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my brother and sister are considerably younger than me.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I graduated, I went into the Marine Corps.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when I went in, I just enlisted in the Marines because uh uh becoming a minister then became the furthest thing from my mind.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I went to Marines and they said, okay, after boot camps, they said, Okay, you're gonna be a machine gunner, and so I became a M60 machine gunner and uh went straight to Vietnam.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Was there for six months before I got wounded the first time, about a month or so later got wounded again and then again.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so after the third time was uh more severe than the first two times, so uh I was sent back to the United States.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh went to Great Lakes Naval Hospital.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was there for uh July to November, so I guess about five months.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went back to duty again.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: This time I went to I and I duty, which is instructor and inspector.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we trained reserves, but a bigger duty was that we notified next to Kent.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And in so many ways, that was much more difficult than actually being in combat.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very difficult to deal with.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um besides uh notifying parents or sometimes uh young bride would come to the door uh tell them that the third marine wasn't coming home uh was extremely difficult and I relied on alcohol to uh calm me down and so spent a lot of nights uh in bars and uh towards the end uh of the first year of doing that, um I got a call from my brother saying that my mother was dying and probably wouldn't live through the night.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh she had cancer and I knew that uh it was possible that she could die.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: She had asked me if if she would if she passed away before my younger brother and sister graduated from high school if I would be their guardian.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I I said I would.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so after her funeral, I went back to duty, requested from Marine Corps headquarters that I be discharged, uh, and they approved it.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so that ended my Marine Corps career.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh created new stress of being a guardian.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh twenty-three and uh my brother and sister were both just young teenagers, so I wasn't that much older than them.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so that that was a new challenge.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Survived that, went to college, eventually went to college, but I worked and went to college.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: I worked every day I was in college.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I was either going to college full time, working part-time, or working full-time and going to college part-time.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it took a long time to get through, but I finally did.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I started learning to do income taxes while I was in school.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought, well, this was this was great.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'll make sure this is my major, and I majored in accounting.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Became a CPA.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: During that process, I met my wonderful wife who stuck with me through all my nonsense.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh became self-employed and it brought on new responsibilities, new stresses.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And through the whole time I was still carrying Vietnam.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was still mentally knocking on doors.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so it there was a lot of stress that just to continue to go with me through that whole process.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let me stop you there.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: I want to ask a couple of questions.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh looking back on that now, would you would you say that you had PTSD?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Would you um did you ever get a B at PS PTSD diagnosis, or would you would you describe yourself as having PTSD from that time?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I I got out of the Marine Corps in uh 1970.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the Veterans Administration never uh would never recognized PTSD, I I think, until the early 80s.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a thing too about that.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I think it was came from World War One, I think, where uh it was uh shell shock.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah, that originated in World War One, yeah.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um and with that, of course, you know, there was a stigma.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I was a United States Marine.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, from the time I was uh five years old when my oldest brother went in the Marines, I was uh I knew that the United States Marine Corps was the toughest organic fighting organization in the world.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's something uh how could I how could I be a Marine Corps veteran and and uh say I had shell shock or PTSD or anything else?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and one of the reasons probably that that I was able to withstand a lot of the stuff that I did was because I was strong.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was taught to be strong.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know that that strength was was just my strength, and so that lasted until it didn't.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: I I so so during that time, I mean you're just basically powering through um w whatever stresses were were you experiencing now that we we know about PTSD and moral injury, looking back on that, would you say, yeah, it probably had PTSD and uh definitely I'm to be a yeah, but that's no no question in my mind.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I have but you didn't have medication and things to to you just you just had to like power through it every day.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, see, I did I didn't need to yeah, no, I get it.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: My my son's a Marine, and what's what's interesting, he's he's in the Marine Corps Reserve.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: He's he's a couple years in, um should be promoted to corporal this fall.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's very excited about it, but it's totally different.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they're still they're still one of the toughest um fighting organizations in the world.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: They still have a lot of lingering, you know, because I served for 32 years in the army.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: I served in the infantry for 10 years, and then I served in the Marine Corps, I mean the uh chaplain corps the rest of the time.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so you can still see there's a legacy, there's still legacy in all the military services, but certainly in the Marine Corps, in the Army about you know, PTSD, these kind of things are signs of weakness, even if even if there's a even if there's a a like company narrative, like a organizational narrative that it's not, there's still culturally, it's still you know, this very much like similar kind of thing that you're talking about.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it makes it difficult for people to get help.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: At least we do have diagnosis, we do have medication, stuff like that.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: So there's in many ways people are in better shape, but it's still very difficult for people to accept that there might be something going on for sure.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so so you um so you're uh when did so we last left off, you got married, and things began to change for you, or or what what happened from there?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well yeah, I I I being self-employed as uh had my own CPA practice, and so uh we're quite successful.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I in my younger days, of course, you know, I dur especially during taxis and you know, be doing all-nighters or something.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I of course I as I got older I I stopped that nonsense, but but the uh during from the from the time from the time that I I left the Marine Corps, uh uh nightmares were not unusual.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so when even after I got married, I was still having nightmares, but I I I never told my wife that I was having nightmares.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would never, you know.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's that's pretty you're able to hide that from your wife.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty well I don't know how well I hid it.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh you know she'd say you're a Marine, toughen up, you know.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: But well, right, there's a there's a culture, and it's sort of an American culture, right?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: That that maybe I'm not a cultural scientist, so I can be off base, but the greatest generation, it was their toughness, their uh resiliency in the face of all this of war, and the war was both abroad and at home in many ways.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so there was this sort of identity, right?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: About toughness, and we can get victory over anything, we can defeat anybody.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: We can we were we built in the 50s built the greatest economy in the world at the time, and and so so like our our my generation, I was born in 71, so my parents' generation, their generation before, they were still in survival mode, they they were tough people who had to scratch a living, and so there was very much a culture of suck it up kind of thing, right?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't invented in the Marine Corps, it was it was sort of an American identity in many ways, so uh that doesn't surprise me.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and the uh uh I I would I would never have admitted that I had PTSD.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean it just I just wouldn't.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the uh maybe I never would have uh if it wasn't for the burnout.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean it's finally just everything everything caught up.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: It just all the same, you know, and there it is.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like you know, looking back, I can see I can see how it was affected me in a lot of ways.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um there was you know times of of of anger, uncontrolled temper and sometimes.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh relationships always you know took a hit from that.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh certainly spirituality.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, during during the process sometime I I I actually had looked up burnout in the I think I Googled it or something, wherever I found it.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it it talks about it being physically, mental, mentally, and and uh emotional type of distress.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I could never find one that included spiritual.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and and for me, I I thought that's that's the beginning point.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that's where I need to start.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh to get the spirit right, if I could get right spiritually, then I can work on my emotions, right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and in physical conditions.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think that um, you know, I I agree with that.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think I I've been doing some reading myself, and uh of course I work in the trauma field and so on.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: And um you know, I recognized for myself as I as I do this work and look at back at some of my own struggles, I'd like to say I was I was fragmented, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: I had um, you know, uh just kind of thinking uh out of this holistically, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: You have a you have your mind, your soul, your body, life, your family, all this stuff.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: And what I tend to do, and I think what a lot of people tend to do that end up experiencing burnout is they zero in on one piece.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: And with ministers, it can and and other people that work in helping professions, often it's like their life mission.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: They especially people in the spiritual field, uh I've in, you know, whether you're talking rabbis or pastors or imams, there's there's a sense of higher calling, a life mission, a life purpose.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very easy for ministers to like really zero in on that so much that they're you know forgetting their body and and what it means, their mind.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I you know, even to the point for some ministers, especially if they've been doing it a few years, I remember talking to a chaplain who admitted he didn't really read the Bible except to prepare a sermon, you know, and and I was blown away by that, but I wonder how many others are are similar, right?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: We're not really feeding ourselves as much as just like getting the mission done.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and for mental health professionals, it's not preaching, but it's still like, and so just being able to take a holistic look and and taking care of everything is kind of difficult.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's I think one reason people have burnout.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Is would you agree with that?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or where uh yeah, absolutely.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: I uh when I when I became uh especially when I became self-employed, now I always pushed, you know.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just that was the nature uh from the Marine Corps, that's how I was taught to push, move on, you know, absolutely get over it, get moving, go.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so but that carried with me also, you know.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I that was pretty much certainly impact my life.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: But through being self-employed, uh ownership of whatever was going on in in my company would belong to me.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so whatever happened, it went through me.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I need to see everything before anything goes out the door.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if there's tax returns or or or any type of report or something, I need to see it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's my responsibility.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's and that was my attitude.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, regardless, it had to be me.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh uh you know, it's sometimes hard to keep good employees when you have uh such overbearing uh attitude as such as that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the uh but in my case I just one one night late in my office, I'm the only one there.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I I always kept a a bottle of scotch down here in my in my guest store.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I was feeling pretty bad I uh uh internally.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I w wasn't sure what was going on, and so I reached down, I got the bottle.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than pouring it into a glass, I just drank from the bottle and and I put it back down and and uh uh always there was you know the just the drink itself just kind of wakes up your nerves a little bit and your your taste buds and such.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it seemed to do nothing.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, wow, what's wrong with this?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I reached for the bottle again and and I started to drink it.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and I recall that I just slammed the the back down on my desk and I said something like I I I can't take this anymore.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was what's wrong with it, you know, and I then I cried out to God for help, for forgiveness, and I spent quite a bit of the rest of that night just on the floor with with my face in the floor.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh after that, then I decided I was going to what the heck happened all these years, you know, what why am I so weak now?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: What what's wrong with me?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: What did I do?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I started just writing to myself about where I'd been, what had happened all these years, and and uh I started thinking, oh, yeah, you know, I wasn't in Vietnam by myself.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's other people who were there.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's other wars since since Vietnam, it's not uh you know I didn't own the corner on that.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: The um and and then as well, any type of trauma, you actually don't even have to be be a veteran.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you don't have to go to war, you don't have to be a veteran.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many other things where you can choose from if you want trauma.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's there.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right, absolutely.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I decided I would change this and I would because I thought what helped me could help others.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I just took my memories, uh my pain, and uh my redemption as well, and I poured it into a fiction fictional Marine that I called Kevin Casey.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: So in the in the book it's all it's all uh names are all fictional, but but the story is mine.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Let me stop you there real sec.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: I want to get into that, but I want to go back a little bit before we start that.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um so one of the things that that strikes me, it some certainly something I experienced myself uh as a military person, and something late in my career I began to think differently.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: And part of what helped me was a chaplain that helped me think differently.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: But we tend to do in the military, especially combat arms.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: I serve in the infantry, you served in the infantry, and um you know, we we were both combat soldiers.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: There's this idea of pushing forward, and in combat, you have to, right?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's a great mentality.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: Suck up bullets and drive on, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's the way you have to do combat.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: You have to, you can't be like if you're hurt, if you're hurt, but you can still fight, you gotta fight, and all that.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: What we do, and what we're taught to do is take that mentality and apply it to every single other situation in in life, and that's you know, we're not taught that, hey, this is a combat, this is what your mentality.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like there's this false belief that you can't switch mentalities, and and I learned in my own career that you can have a combat mentality.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: This is what we do in training, this is what we do in combat in garrison.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: We act differently at home, we act differently.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, in business, there's there's this you gotta hustle, but also, you know, there's so and I think people struggle with that in the military, people that have served a lot of veterans to be able to say, this is not that now.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not at war now.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um working at a company with civilians, uh, and where a lot of veterans struggle in the civilian marketplace is and why so many people retire from the military and go back to work for the military as a civilian because they can't handle the civilian mentality.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, but also at IBM, it's not about sucking bullets up and driving on, it's a it's a different thing, right?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think people have a hard time like making that switch and saying, what is the mentality I need for this job or this position or this ministry?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: This is not combat.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: Would you do do you agree with that or or where do you leave?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes, sir.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I uh certainly do.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I I I see you know it's just like you were talking about me when you're saying that, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's how I was.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I got out, I got out of the Marine Corps.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh I was I was a sergeant, I told people what to do.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I expected people to follow what I said to do, you know.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Without question, without oh yeah, just do it and hurry up.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right, why isn't it done?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Type of thing.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and so uh yeah, and but I also that that same mentality that expecting others to do what they're told is the same mentality that I'm telling myself as well to do it, get it done, move on, right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, your body's screaming for rest, and you're like, I can't rest, I gotta get this.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: And when you when you're able to pull back and you look at some of the reports you have to do, like running a nonprofit, you know, it's it's it's my life mission and stuff, but honestly, some of the reports, some of the things that I have to send somewhere, whatever.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: I like I'm able to look back and go, This is dumb.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, somebody wants it, but it it doesn't need it, it's not like as critical as the mentalities, oh, I got it.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if somebody e-mailed me and said, Hey, can you send me a copy of blah blah blah?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I gotta get it to them right.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_03: No, I don't.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: If I get it to them next week, they're gonna be fine, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about being lazy, but I grew up with a mentality.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: My uncle, my dad and uncle, they serve in Vietnam.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and uh they also grew up a very hard, a very hard life, right, from the beginning childhood.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so they love the word lazy, and they love to sit around and talk about how lazy everybody else was, they might be totally neglecting their family, they might whatever, but all these lazy people.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: So, so for me, like for years, I struggle with if I took any time off, if but and there was anything to do on my plate, like some email, some like thing at home I needed to go mow the grass, whatever.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: If I decide, you know, I don't want to do that, I'm really tired.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: All I would hear is you're lazy, man.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: You're lazy, don't be lazy, don't be lazy.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and so you know, that thing being able to pull back and say, you know, in any business, any work, how important is this right now compared to do I need rest?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: Do I need to give my employees a break, whatever?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's very hard to make that transition, right?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you you talked about being on the floor.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I I'm thinking about I've I've read the big book from Alcoholics Anonymous, and I'm thinking of how similar your story is to some of those I read about, but it it's like you still had to develop, right?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: After that, you basically at that point you're committing your life to God, you still had to do some learning and changing about your mentality, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: You had to learn and be able to pull back and say, Okay, I can't like was was that a process of of learning, you know, how to say it wasn't instantaneous, right?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, yeah, exactly.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but that's the name of my book, is Burnout God's Recovery Plan.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's talk about that.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get into those details now.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is God's recovery plan, you know, and you touched on a few different things um uh during this conversation.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And whereas uh well the the book itself is like I said, it's has to do with uh it's it's it's my my memories and my pain and and my redemption.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but it's all done with fictitious fictitious individuals.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um but then the last part of it is um what I call a praiser, which is God's recovery plan.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an acronym that stands for uh action, prayer, reading scripture, affirmation, inscribing uh gratitude, that's writing in the in the in your in your uh in your gratitude journal.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh then seeing, which is visualization, and then exercise and rest.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's there's eight different elements of it, which each one grounded in scripture.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: So on a on a daily process, I go through those each one of those eight steps and or elements uh with the scripture and and then for one week, and then the second week all the scriptures change, but the same elements.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes like that for twelve weeks.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: Oh nice, nice.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: So for like for example, the first one is action.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: My my method always for action has always been well, act, get it done.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you're done, then stop.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: But but the way it is is the way uh I write about is is that for the action I do uh prayerfully.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: First I I reach out to God, I follow His guidance on the action I'm gonna do.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so I'll list six items that I'm gonna get done in the day.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have a uh time that I'm I'm gonna work today, and I'm gonna put those in priority, and I'm gonna start with the first priority and just go on down through that and I'm going to uh be systematic about it and you go through those.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And when I get done today, I'm gonna thank God for getting done what I got done.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: What I don't get done goes on tomorrow's list.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: But without trying to do 24 different things between now and and noon tomorrow, and then of course there's prayer.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: So so on the action piece, like there has to be an understanding of right that um what I doesn't get done, I can just leave in God's hands, that God is ultimately right the director of all this, and so whereas before, without God, we think I have to get all these done.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: If I don't, things will fail.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's up to me.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: I have to get all this done, or my business is gonna fail, my ministry, whatever.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: And what you're saying is that yes, there are things I have to do because God requires us to do things in our life, to, to, to be active, to help accomplish his work in the world, but it's up to him, and he's empowering us, and there's some things we think we need to do that God says, no, that doesn't need to be done today, right?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: Is that kind of the mentality that we're taking into the yes, that that's what it is.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact of the matter is is that I believe in God's guidance and that God is going to guide me.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to I'm not going to overburden myself by by following God's plan.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and God's God's action plan for me for today is coming to me through prayer.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh and that's how each one of the steps each one of the elements and there was one thing that you were talking about rest, and that's that's the last element on the on the list of of eight items, is rest.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there I'm not talking about just the just the Sabbath, I'm not just talking about going to church on Sunday or uh or Saturday whenever anybody goes, but uh but more than that, and that is uh in my case I'm taking the weekend.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not working on Saturday, I'm not working on Sunday.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm spend that that's family time for me.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but actually during the day so that the the day is is planned out.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've got the six items that I plan to finish today, and so I'm putting those in order throughout the day.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: But also I have time breaks throughout the day.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sitting down, I'm not sitting down at my desk at nine o'clock and in the morning and getting up at four or five or something, whatever the time might be, that that's planned for the day.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna sit there with my head down doing all the work with without taking a break.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and um so I I schedule different time breaks throughout the day.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and also I plan time for for a lunch break.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that I you know still I know I am uh uh a disciplined individual.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so my wife and I get up at 3 30 in the morning.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: We uh we read, pray, and plan the day and uh read scripture.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then we go to the fitness club.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Then from the fitness club, uh we start our daily duties after that.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh my wife's younger than me, she still works.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, somebody's gonna pay the rent, you know.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh but I work I work from home now, so but the uh that's those are steps and uh uh right before rest is exercise.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh exercise because this is God's temple.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're taught to take care of God's temple.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and exercise is a part of that.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I hear that.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: So e each one of the uh steps scenario is grounded in scripture.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: The scriptures change each week for a 12-week.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like so someone could get this book and basically have is that plan in the book so they can basically or the outline of the plan, they can they can basically read that, come up with their own like specific details of each item of that plan, what exercise means to them, what prayer means action.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: So this is sort of like they can follow this, and is that right?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or yes.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: So so actually the the book itself is a nine by six, so it's it's small, but it has it has the workbook in the back of it.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but also I I made available uh a workbook that's an eight and a half by eleven.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: So they can do that at their desk, they can work through it each day or something, and yes.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's really cool.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things, uh, you know, we don't have time to like get into all the steps, but there are a couple of them that struck my attention.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: One was you said something about imagining, right?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: Was it imagining or visioning?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Visual visualization.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Visualization.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me about that.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: So visualization, uh I you know, I have I have goals and dreams, uh and and so that things that I want to accomplish.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um so again, whatever the visualization is, is my wife and I pray about it.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: We make that and there uh from that, that's how we make a decis decision what I'm gonna use for visualization.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's uh if we need a new car, for example, you know, that would be a part of the visualization or something.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if I want to reach more people with my with my talks, that would be another one that would go on to visualization as well.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: So what's really interesting about that is that I find that that is that concept, visualization, it's very prominent in in uh whatever you want to call it, new age philosophy, spirituality, not necessarily religion.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_03: I find it's that's a very rare concept within Christian circles, especially evangelical Christian circles of tend to very much shy away from that kind of concept because it's new agey.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: I but I'm a total believer in it.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a total believer, believer in it.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I recently had an experience where God got my attention in a big way because I stopped dreaming.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I I got into this mindset, not dreaming like at night that that happens, but I stopped visualizing the future because I got into this mode of I was trying to be good.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: I was trying to like, hey, I'm just gonna work every day as unto the Lord and and just keep my head down and do do whatever God has me do.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: But but I also there was there had been like a growing frustration that I'm often audibled with um visualization in the sense that isn't work, it you know, uh because of business failures or whatever, I visualize in coming, whatever.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to get into all that, but but I began this mentality of like, hey, the visualization that's nonsense, just set daily goals, it's about skills, it's about working hard, you know, all that.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: And and I and the short story is I began to to have like a real disability.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Difficult sleeping, and every time I would start dreaming, I would wake up, I would pop awake um with a lot of fear, and I couldn't go back to sleep.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so I it prayed about a lot.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that came to me is that you stopped dreaming, you told your subconscious not to dream.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: So when you're having dreams, your subconscious is waking you up because it's doing what it's told, which is to not dream, right?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was a real awakening for me that hey, visualization, dreaming about the future, it's absolutely vital to your mental health.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: Not that all that you visualize is going to come true the way you visualize it, but there's something in us that needs that that sort of the joy and and the sort of direction and guidance that comes with casting a vision and thinking about things.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's you know, something in your subconscious mind the way it works.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: We we have plenty of research and evidence about that, but I find in Christian circles, a lot of Christian circles, nobody talks about that, right?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's just and so uh do you find do you have you experienced that or am I what what is your take on what I just said?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the only uh the only the only comments I've I've uh I've I I've heard from church people uh was that uh because I'm a Lutheran and uh and and I I I talk about in the book of surrendering to Christ in the book and and uh one one lady told me that uh uh as Lutherans we we don't we don't really hear people talk about that so much.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, well, I grew up a Methodist, maybe that's why but uh I you know I don't uh visu visualization I I see that as you know you you you're seeing things with your mind's eye.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it's like to me uh and I every every item on here, every element is grounded in scripture.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: So talk about visualization.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: What what what is one scripture, for instance, that you draw on for that?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's only so much room up here for memorization.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I guess totally, totally fine.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, so you didn't expect me to ask that question, so but uh but I think it's really critical because I I've while you're looking that up, I struggle with it myself because my own my own parents they don't listen to this podcast, so it's okay.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but my own parents, well-meaning parents, uh, I'm not you know hating on them, but well-meaning parents discouraged visualization and dreaming and and all that, uh, because you know it's like dreaming is just fantasy, life doesn't work out that way and that kind of thing.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been a real struggle for me in my life to to be okay with visualization.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: I finally, you know, shed that and realized that if I'm starving my soul if I don't do visualization, that's part of what I need to feel good and and do my work and so on.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: But but you know, it it I think it's discouraged for a lot of people, really.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think that um well one of the verses in in here is Proverbs 29, verse 18, and that's uh where there is no revelation, people cast off restraint, but blessed is the one who needs wisdom's instruction.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and and another one is uh Hebrews 11 1, you know, about faith.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's now faith is confidence and what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's something uh you you you don't you don't have that new car in your garage that you want.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um you can't see it there, but you know it's coming.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you've prayed about it, it's a something that you that's needed.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so that's part of the visualization is seeing that car before it gets there.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_03: And we're not really talking about um, you know, as as I as I put put put this whole thing into context, right?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh we're not really talking about um I I would say correct me if I'm wrong, but we're not really talking about like a prosperity gospel kind of approach of where you could just get whatever you want.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_03: You're grounding this in your study, your prayer time.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: So your your your visualization is linked to what you think God wants you to have in your life, what God you know is is calling you to be in your life.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's not uh it's not just a free fall.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, I I want a million dollars in the bank, so I'm gonna visualize that.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: I want to right it's grounded in this concept of what you believe your mission to be or what you believe God is calling you to do and how he wants you to live your life through your prayer and other things, right?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes, and I I think it's it's a revelation.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're receiving the revelation of something.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and um uh but the revelation comes to your mind before it uh comes, you know, as something physical or or meeting someone else, perhaps.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe making a future connection that's gonna help somebody somewhat along the line, right?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's how I see that.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're exactly right.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: I do not see it as uh trying to fill up the coffers.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that still requires work.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well that I I think um, you know, from from my perspective now is as I've matured some and you know, I'm I'm growing every day, uh, but it's it's really I I think in simple terms, everybody, every single person on earth has a specific mission, a specific part to play.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_03: And the challenge is and the work is in large part, it's not just uh you know doing what the Bible says, not cheating on your taxes or cheating on your wife, or saying, you know, it's not just a list of do's and don'ts.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_03: The bigger picture to me is because I remember I was having dinner with a friend one time, we're talking about scripture and all this stuff, and he stopped me and he said, Look, you don't need to read the old testament at all.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: He said, You've got the do's and don'ts down really, really good.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: He said, Well, you need is to to read about the freedom in Christ and the gospel.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's interesting.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: So we're so we're really good at do's and don'ts, but I I think the bigger picture to me is is you know, having this balanced life that that includes your life mission, your family, taking care of your body, you know, your mind, having the rest, all that.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's about balance.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: And if we if we put it, if if we're truly like it's easy to get excited or pulled away, you know, with the commercials of you, you know, every commercial tells us how our life sucks unless we have this product, right?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: But if we get sucked into that, then our life becomes about pursuing material things and and we never have enough money, we never have whatever.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but really it's about you know, I I think God has an image of what our fully our life can fully be in Him.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: And for some people, it isn't with a lot of money.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: For some people are totally would be at their greatest peace with a small house and just a little bit of a thing, and uh and other people um are called to wealth so that they can share that wealth with people, like it's all different.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the real key is about what is my what what is what gives me peace, what is what is that whether material things or family or whatever that's right for me, um, and and having your visualization align with that, um, to me is a is the more important piece than just like don't do this, don't do that, just being a good person.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: You can be a very good person and be miserable because your life doesn't have meaning or you don't feel like it, like you're doing what you really should be doing in life and that kind of thing.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: What is how do you how do you land with that idea?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree with you.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: I uh the uh I I still think the the Ten Commandments are important, of course, but yeah, absolutely, but um I don't uh I would I would say my day-to-day focus isn't on the Ten Commandments directly, right?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it it is more about how how can I reach out?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: How can I reach out uh to more people?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Why why can I do differently in my life?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's gonna help somebody.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and especially the people who have suffered trauma and and burnout.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that's pretty much I think the way I approach it.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_03: So uh we're we're sort of running out of time, but what I wanted to do is um tell us the name of the book again and and how people can get a hold of it.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the name of the book is Burnout God's Recovery Plan.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um of course it's on on Amazon, but also you can go to my website, which is uh recoverybyfaith.com.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, recoverybyfaith.com.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, good.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: And from there uh you get access to where the book is, but also in addition to that, I do a blog and also you can sign up for a newsletter if you wish.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you can also you can reach out to me if you want to talk to me.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: I talk to anybody who reaches out, and all that information is on your website, so if they want to figure out how to contact you or reach out to you, yes.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um is there so if somebody's uh riding in their car right now and they're they're thinking about um getting help, is there is there a phone number or is there an email they can put in their phone, send you a quick email and say, hey, what's what's that information?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just my name Keith, K-E-I-T-H at recoverybyfaith.com.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, Keith at recovery by faith.com.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: All that information will be on our on our website or our podcast website, but a lot of people, probably most people listen to this, you know, on their on their phones and and uh their other devices.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean there's so many different kinds of devices now.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: But in the show notes, we'll have your your website and all that information um and so on.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh this will be on YouTube and many different places we can put it.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think is really important.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh I love that you're I I remember working for a chap on one time, a rabbi um in New Jersey, um and uh he said he said, You're the wounded healer.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: I said, What's that?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, Well, you you take the wounds that you've had and and you use those to help people, and you're really good at it, and that's really important.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I see that I see you as that too, right?
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: The wounded healer, you're sort of like you figured out how to recover from your own trauma traumatic experiences.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_03: You're living now a life where you're you have a process and a way to live your life that works for you and your wife and keeps you balanced, but also keeps you keeps you doing your life mission, and that's people can really learn from that.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_03: I hope they get the book.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh and can they book you for like speaking gigs or can churches have you come in and that kind of thing?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or uh yeah, there's a method of doing that on the website as well.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Keith, it's been great talking to you.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I really appreciate the work you're doing, and uh um I I know you're helping a lot of people.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: So well, thank you.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh I really I very much appreciate you and all that you're doing, and so I'm grateful uh for you and I'm grateful for your audience as well.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: Good okay, thank you very much.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, enjoy uh the rest of your week and uh thanks.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.