Latest / Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar / 9/15/26: Macklemore Dropped, Pablo Torre Returns, Cuban Official Interview

Transcript

9/15/26: Macklemore Dropped, Pablo Torre Returns, Cuban Official Interview · Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey guys, Ready or Not 2024 is here and we
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: here at Breaking Points are already thinking of ways we
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: can up our game for this critical election.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade
• 0:11
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• 0:14
  Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Insane situation unfolding with the artist. Macklemore has been very
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: outspoken in his pro-Palestine advocacy. He has been canceled from
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the Ed Sheeran tour after he had the audacity to
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: say this.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: I've been trying to figure out a way to say
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: this all day. One of the reasons why I wanted
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: to come on this tour was because I wanted to
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: stand up here on stages and stadiums across America and
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: say two words that are very near and dear to
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: my heart, free Palestine. To all of my Jewish brothers
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: and sisters, criticism of Israel, criticism of apartheid, being against genocide.
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: In no way is a criticism of you.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: My message is for peace, love, for all human beings
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: to be treated with dignity, respect, and equality.
• 1:24
  Speaker 5: So I say free Palestine.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: So that's it. That's what he said. Shouldn't be controversial.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Was not even remotely anti-Semitic. In fact, you hear him
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: say there, to clarify, this isn't about Jewish people. This
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: is about criticism of the nation state called Israel. And
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: yet this led to a total freakout. I don't know
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: if you guys followed the whole thing with Pink, who
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: was also on the tour, was criticizing him. There was
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: a whole entire meltdown.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: Wait, Pink? Oh, you didn't know this? No, I missed
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: this part.
• 1:55
  Speaker 6: Sorry.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a whole long thing from Pink and she's upset,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: all of this sort of stuff. So in any case,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: it has culminated in Macklemore being kicked off of the tour.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: And now for Macklemore himself, we are getting some of
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: the backstory. Let's put D3 up on the screen. This
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: is a lengthy Instagram pose. I'm not going to read
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: all of it. The TLDR here is that Robert Kraft,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: who is the owner of the Patriots and also, you know,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: so controls that stadium, went to Ed Sheeran and said,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: nice tour you got there. Shame something happens to it.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: He organized behind the scenes with other stadium owners to say,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: we're not going to host your little tour. If you
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: keep Macklemore on stage, if you keep him on the tour,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: you are not going to be able to perform. And
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Ed Sheeran came to the pressure and said, okay, then
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: I'll kick him off. And what McLemore says here is
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: that Sheeran was like, oh, I don't want to take sides.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Of course, people have pulled up images of him holding
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: the Ukraine flag and having no issue taking sides in
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: that particular war. However, when it comes to Israel-Palestine, he
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: didn't want to quote unquote take sides. But of course,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: he has taken a side. He's taken the side of
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Robert Kraft, who has said you are not allowed to
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: say free Palestine here. and go on tour. Keep in mind,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: as many others have pointed out on Twitter, literally Kanye West,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: who has a song called Heil Hitler, is on tour
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: right now and has dates at some of the very
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: stadiums that threaten to boycott and not allow Ed Sheeran
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: and Macklemore.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and before we even get to the craft and
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: what you said, first of all, Kanye literally is on tour. Second,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: how many of these artists are wife beaters, criminals, drug dealers?
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: Nobody cares. Yeah. Literally nobody cares.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Jasmine Crockett out there giving an award to Chris Brown.
• 3:42
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: Chris Brown.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Domestic abuser and criminal.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 3:46
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: And you know what?
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Fine.
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: People want to go see the concert.
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: That's their right.
• 3:50
  Speaker 6: You know?
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: I don't think they should.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: Whatever.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Didn't seem to me that so many people were upset
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: about that at the concert. I mean, I didn't even
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: know Ed Sheeran was on tour.
• 3:57
  Speaker 8: No offense, Ed.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: You're a nice guy.
• 3:58
  Speaker 6: But, you know.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: Or I guess you. I thought you were a nice guy.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: But.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Let's get now to a Robert Kraft statement. And very fitting.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: We're about to do the segment with Pablo.
• 4:07
  Speaker 6: This all comes.
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: I mean, Robert Kraft is not just Robert Kraft.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, stadium owner. He's an owner of the New
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: England Patriots. He is one of the most influential NFL
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: owners in the entire sport.
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: He has relationships.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Accused sex criminal.
• 4:22
  Speaker 8: Alleged.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: No, actually, I don't know if it's alleged. Did he
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: plead no contest? I'll look at it while you're talking.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Or is it.
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: What happened? Maybe I think they dropped the charges.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: against him, but I don't think he disputes what exactly
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: went down, um, in that Asian massage parlor. Uh, but
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: now let's go ahead and put D five up here
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: on the screen. This is Robert Kraft statement. He says
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Gillette stadium has a long standing commitment to providing a
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: welcoming environment for all guests and ensuring that events held
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: at our venue do not provide a platform for hate
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: speech based on Macklemore's recent actions. materials shared from the
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: stage during Ed Sheeran's shows, and a broader history of
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: anti-Semitic rhetoric and imagery, we believe has been deeply offensive
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: and hurtful to the Jewish community. We have determined his
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: participation at his concerts would cross that line. This decision
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: is not about diminishing the suffering of Palestinians or denying
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: anyone the right to advocate on their behalf.
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: Their pain and loss are real.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: But the responsibility of Hamas, a United States and globally,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: including designated terrorist organization, and immeasurable suffering, I mean, this
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: is illegible.
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: Too many lives have been lost. There's been too much suffering.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: But only sharing selective information and ignoring the actions of
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Hamas is not an honest and only advances more divisiveness
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: and hate. Over many decades, I have directed resources to Palestine, etc.,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: And he eventually says, I would welcome the opportunity to
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: sit down with Macklemore and discuss the facts because ultimately
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: our goal is the same, peace for all people, an
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: end to suffering, and an end to all hate. And
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: you will be shocked to learn, as I've covered here
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: many times in the past, Robert Kraft was the top
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: donor over at Columbia University. He was massively influential with
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: what happened there on their campus with the protests. He
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: also obviously was the major funder and proponent If you'll
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: remember that Super Bowl ad, the stop, the blue square stop, anti-Semitism.
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: Oh, that was him?
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: That's all him, yeah. And so, you know, I honestly
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: don't think we should ignore this. You know, at first
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: you're like, okay, it's silly. But for me, like it's
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: one thing, Patriots owner Robert Kraft, like, you know, he's
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: been a crazy Zionist for a long time. He makes
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: the Patriots players go over to Israel. He's been doing
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: this for years, Tom Brady.
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: And all that.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: But creating a boycott for all the other stadium owners
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: in the country, that is low-key crazy. That is woke, 1.0,
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: insane-style behavior at a corporate high level.
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: And look, Macklemore didn't do anything wrong. We all know it.
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: It's the most mild-mannered.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Colorably say it was offensive.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: And that's the part where I'm like, this is scary.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: In terms, you know, literal woke 1.0 major opponent here.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: You know, anytime you get Amazon and all these other
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: people cartel, you start firing people for saying completely anodyne stuff.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: All lives matter. Nobody should have been canceled over that.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: I would put this in the same thing. He didn't
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: say anything wrong.
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: It's crazy.
• 7:26
  Speaker 8: It's crazy.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: And Ed Sheeran, what a little bitch. What a bitch.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, and first of all, if you were worried
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: about this, don't have Macklemore on your tour. He literally
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: did a whole song about Hins Hall. I mean, he
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: is known as he is pro-Palestine. He has been an advocate.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: He has been one of the few artists who has
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: truly come forward and spoken out. So if you don't
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: want any of this, then I'm not sure what you
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: were thinking to begin with. But this notion that, oh,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to take a side, you did take
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: a side. It's very obvious you took a side. And
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: then also just from even if you are completely amoral
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: and you don't care about little children being bombed and
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: the largest population of child amputees on the planet and
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: any of that, let's say you don't care, you just
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: care about yourself and your career. How is this going
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: for you? You look terrible. He's losing fans by the droves.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Like his Instagram page is in full decline because of
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: what he's done here. Whereas if you had stood up
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: to them, do you know how much of a hero
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: you would be? You could have come forward publicly and said,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: I'm under all this pressure. I'm not going to buckle.
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: What's the point of all the money? That's what I get.
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: You know, I just looked it up.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: And you don't think that other stadium owners would want
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: to host you? You're one of the biggest artists on
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: the planet.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: Like, of course.
• 8:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: These people, they'll sell tickets for Kanye. They don't give
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: a shit what you say. They sell tickets for Chris Brown.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, even, you know, let me put this in
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: terms of Robert Kraft. You could be a wife beater.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: You could be, you know, literal. How many Patriots players,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: not just Patriots, how many NFL players are like actively
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: either under investigation, previously indicted, alleged for domestic violence? I mean,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Deshaun Watson is a starting quarterback in the NFL. Everybody
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: just moves past. I guess, you know, Kraft will, whatever.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Him and Deshaun Watson in terms of their misogyny. But
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: my point is just here, with Ed Sheeran, $ 370 million
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: estimated British pounds. So that's $ 470 million USD. What's the
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: point of all the money, man? Apparently him and Macklemore
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: were friends for like 13 years. Even if you disagree,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: which I don't even know if he has a position
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: or any of that.
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: It's like, really, dude? Like your little stadium... grubbiness is
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: worth it?
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Let's say that he doesn't have a position. Do you
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: have a position on free speech? You really think that
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: someone should be pulled.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: From your whole tour just.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Because they said free Palestine? That's so pathetic. It's so pathetic.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: So anyway, completely and utter insanity. Complete cowardice on the
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: part of Sharon. Shout out to Macklemore. He's a real one.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: He has already paid a price. in terms of the
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: sort of deals and exposure that he could have and
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: has continued to be willing to pay that price. And
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: I thought his statement, I didn't read it because it's
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: too long, but I thought it was very well put.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: And he said, look, I'm not a victim. I'm fine.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Keep the focus on the people of Palestine and the
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: people in the world who are genuinely suffering. And so
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing to keep in mind
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: here as well.
• 10:30
  Speaker 5: I think it's totally nuts.
• 10:32
  Speaker 8: I really do.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: Okay, let's get to Pablo.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: I'm very excited now to be joined by our friend
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Pablo Torre, one of the most impactful sports journalists in
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: the United States. Pablo, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: Thank you, guys.
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 10:46
  Speaker 7: It is, as always, a very busy week, and you
• 10:49
  Speaker 7: guys have been on this from the start, and I
• 10:51
  Speaker 7: appreciate you chronicling the journey.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: We're only elevating the incredible work that you do. Let's
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: put it up here on the screen. Steve Ballmer, who
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: is now issuing an apology. He says, For my Los
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Angeles Clippers followers, this has been a very difficult time
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: for everybody associated with the Clippers.
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: For that, I have sincere regrets.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: I want to apologize to our fans, our employees, and
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: my fellow NBA team owners for the distraction and distress
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: this has caused. for which I accept responsibility as principal owner.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: We are committed to putting this chapter behind us. We
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: have communicated that we are complying with penalties assessed by
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: the league, have paid the fine, and are moving forward.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: While there are still disagreements concerning the findings in the report,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: this is not where I want to focus. Team owners
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: should support, not distract. The challenges ahead of us are significant,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: but so is our resolve. We continue to build our
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: team and invest in our community. So, Pablo, there's a
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: lot going on here, and you actually, I know, have
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: been probing even deeper beyond a lot of this surface-level
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: kind of corporate speak. Tell us what to look for,
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: especially in light of the DOJ potentially launching a criminal
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: investigation into Steve Ballmer.
• 11:54
  Speaker 7: Yeah, so the New York Times reported days before this,
• 11:56
  Speaker 7: we had not heard from Steve Ballmer for about 11
• 11:58
  Speaker 7: days since he had threatened to sue the NBA and
• 12:01
  Speaker 7: whoever else he felt worthy of. a lawsuit as a
• 12:05
  Speaker 7: result of the investigation. But days before this, Steve Ballmer,
• 12:10
  Speaker 7: his clippers, they were announced in the New York Times
• 12:13
  Speaker 7: as a target of the Department of Justice as part
• 12:15
  Speaker 7: of their investigation into these secret side deals for Kawhi Leonard.
• 12:19
  Speaker 7: And so there's at least one subpoena. And I say
• 12:22
  Speaker 7: all of this to say, that this is not sports
• 12:25
  Speaker 7: court anymore we're dealing with.
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: This is the real world.
• 12:28
  Speaker 7: And so when he releases a statement in which he says, notably,
• 12:33
  Speaker 7: that he apologizes for the stress and distraction caused by
• 12:37
  Speaker 7: this whole story, by this saga, but does not admit
• 12:40
  Speaker 7: to having done anything. In fact, as you rightfully pointed out,
• 12:44
  Speaker 7: he still has pushback on the findings of the report.
• 12:47
  Speaker 7: What he's doing is trying to have his cake and
• 12:49
  Speaker 7: eat it too. He's trying to say, I would like
• 12:51
  Speaker 7: to go and move forward as an owner in this sport.
• 12:54
  Speaker 7: He is not going to sue the NBA. He is
• 12:56
  Speaker 7: trying to put this behind him. But at the same time,
• 12:58
  Speaker 7: in the real world, there are federal agencies. And the
• 13:02
  Speaker 7: DOJ is now joining the SEC. The SEC has already
• 13:07
  Speaker 7: been probing two of the companies that he did these
• 13:09
  Speaker 7: side deals with, Aspiration and Dectronics. What he's trying to
• 13:12
  Speaker 7: do is say, I cannot– wait to move on, but
• 13:16
  Speaker 7: also I cannot admit to anything I've done that might
• 13:19
  Speaker 7: be interesting to federal investigators. And so he's in this
• 13:23
  Speaker 7: strange but conspicuous sort of in-between zone in which he's
• 13:27
  Speaker 7: not quite saying the thing. And the reason he's not
• 13:29
  Speaker 7: saying it is the government.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: So just to back up for people who may not
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: have followed this story closely, what you uncovered and you
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and your team won a Pulitzer Prize for was the
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: fact that the Clippers were circumventing the salary cap for
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: this player, Kawhi Leonard, by lining up these side deals
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: with the companies that you mentioned before. And effectively, you know,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: he's getting paid millions of dollars by these companies to
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: do literally nothing. So that is what the scandal is.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: They now, you know, there was an extensive report. They
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: got caught red-handed. Significant penalties have been meted out. I
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: want people to know, how did you pick up the
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: scent of this? Because you and your team did some
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: incredible investigative journalism to be able to uncover all of
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: this before anyone else caught on to what was going
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: on here?
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah, some of the stuff we do is new and
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: sort of novel.
• 14:17
  Speaker 7: We do it on our YouTube channel and our podcast,
• 14:21
  Speaker 7: and we've been derided by Steve Ballmer in court filings
• 14:23
  Speaker 7: as merely making podcast allegations that are provably false.
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: Those are both scare quotes that he has applied.
• 14:32
  Speaker 7: But the actual reporting is the ancient sort of art
• 14:37
  Speaker 7: of diving into documents and not talking to your family
• 14:40
  Speaker 7: on weekends so you can dive into more documents it
• 14:44
  Speaker 7: started with a bankruptcy filing for aspiration a carbon credits
• 14:47
  Speaker 7: company that was a giant sponsor of the clippers and
• 14:50
  Speaker 7: a giant recipient of steve ballmer's money personally He invested
• 14:54
  Speaker 7: $ 60 million, all told, into the company in his own name.
• 14:58
  Speaker 7: And Aspiration goes bankrupt. The company collapses. The co-founder has
• 15:03
  Speaker 7: now been sentenced to 14 years in prison, federal prison
• 15:06
  Speaker 7: for wire fraud. And one of the creditors, one of
• 15:09
  Speaker 7: the top creditors in the bankruptcy filing was AL2 Aspire LLC.
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: And if you are even vaguely aware.
• 15:16
  Speaker 7: Of the Clippers and basketball, KL has the initials of
• 15:20
  Speaker 7: one Kawhi Leonard.
• 15:21
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 15:21
  Speaker 7: The number two is his jersey number and Aspire. Well,
• 15:24
  Speaker 7: the company's name is Aspiration. It does not take Sherlock
• 15:27
  Speaker 7: Holmes to deduce that perhaps this is a vehicle set
• 15:30
  Speaker 7: up exclusively perhaps to receive money from that company.
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: The problem.
• 15:35
  Speaker 7: As you point out, is that he had never done
• 15:37
  Speaker 7: anything in public for that company. There was never even
• 15:40
  Speaker 7: a deal announced. And so then you find out, oh,
• 15:42
  Speaker 7: wait a minute, this is a $ 28 million endorsement deal
• 15:45
  Speaker 7: that he never actually did anything for in public and
• 15:48
  Speaker 7: was never announced. Then you tumble down the rabbit hole
• 15:51
  Speaker 7: from there.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: For me, what's fascinating, Pablo, I know you've done your
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: victory lap, but I really just think it's so worth
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: doing it again. And because... I just cannot get over it.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: You have a multi-billion dollar, I mean, multi-billion doesn't even
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: really capture it.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: We're talking about hundreds of billions.
• 16:10
  Speaker 7: $ 174 billion at last check.
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: One of the 10 richest people in the world, depending
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: on Microsoft stock.
• 16:15
  Speaker 6: Exactly.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: So that's just bomber. Then we're talking about the NBA,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: the cultural imprint, the NFL, the MLB. We talked previously
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: with you about Mark Walters. This is literally, it appears,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: a rat's nest. Then you have a media which seems
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: deeply in bed for access with these same owners, leagues,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: and others. They don't have the same expectation that maybe
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: we do whenever we cover politics. Even when it's adversarial,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: we still have a right to question. We can have FOIA,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: we have, you know, nobody in the government can just
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: ban me from walking into the United States Capitol. That's
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: not the same, nobody has a right to go to
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: a press conference for a sports league or for any
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: of that. And that's why I found, you know, that
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: ESPN article, let's put E3 up there on the screen,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: in the days before to be so shocking in light
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: of what we know now? Is how, Pablo, does something
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: like this even come to be published by this multi-billion
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: dollar company, ESPN Disney, sources NBA has no evidence of
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: bomber funneled money to Leonard via sponsors? I mean, is
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: this just total league capture in light of then the
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: NBA disproving this and validating all of your reporting?
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: How does something like this even happen?
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: When an independent journalist on a YouTube channel is able
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: to win a Pulitzer Prize and the Walt Disney Corporation
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: is somehow either fooled or complicit in trying to cover
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: up for this entire organization.
• 17:45
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and the rub here also is that I worked
• 17:47
  Speaker 7: for ESPN for over a dozen years.
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: All those people on that byline, I know them personally.
• 17:53
  Speaker 7: We did a 15, now 16, I lose count sometimes,
• 17:57
  Speaker 7: part series laying out the reporting, documents, human sources, again,
• 18:00
  Speaker 7: like old school traditional journalism, but just in a new place.
• 18:04
  Speaker 7: they had the ability to see so much that should
• 18:08
  Speaker 7: have made them pause before publishing that.
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: And I will say that they did not reach out
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: to me for comment.
• 18:14
  Speaker 7: I provided a comment afterwards in a discussion with them
• 18:17
  Speaker 7: when the story came out. They did not include that comment,
• 18:20
  Speaker 7: which simply had said, I stand by my reporting. I
• 18:24
  Speaker 7: look forward to the NBA's ruling. Our investigation continues. And
• 18:28
  Speaker 7: so what I will tell you as a journalist is
• 18:31
  Speaker 7: that This was, according to my reporting, the Clippers' legal
• 18:36
  Speaker 7: defense leaked to ESPN and presented as the findings in
• 18:40
  Speaker 7: the NBA's investigation. And so in that very sort of gap,
• 18:46
  Speaker 7: you can see, okay, they technically saw the story and
• 18:50
  Speaker 7: provided some details, but the interpretation was the opposite.
• 18:54
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: And so generously... It.
• 18:58
  Speaker 7: Is something that will haunt them because they did not
• 19:01
  Speaker 7: intend for this. Less generously, it speaks to the question of,
• 19:04
  Speaker 7: how did you guys not smell this earlier when I
• 19:07
  Speaker 7: had been doing this for a year? Why did you
• 19:09
  Speaker 7: not trust the journalist, but instead trusted the source that
• 19:14
  Speaker 7: leaked it to you? And so that is something that
• 19:18
  Speaker 7: I think has led to this larger rightful conversation around, look,
• 19:22
  Speaker 7: sports fans can smell. In a way, they can't necessarily
• 19:25
  Speaker 7: smell with politics even. They can smell when something is BS.
• 19:30
  Speaker 7: And they also can smell how badly these leagues want
• 19:36
  Speaker 7: to monetize their obsession with their favorite thing. Fans know
• 19:42
  Speaker 7: how expensive everything's getting and how hard it is to
• 19:45
  Speaker 7: be told the truth, even as they're spending more money.
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: And we're watching.
• 19:50
  Speaker 7: i think an ongoing process of in this case figurative
• 19:54
  Speaker 7: discovery perhaps soon literal discovery in a courtroom in which
• 19:57
  Speaker 7: we're seeing backstage there are people who are not abiding
• 20:01
  Speaker 7: by what we conceive of what we've always conceived of
• 20:04
  Speaker 7: in journalism as the public interest there is spin in
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: a way that is becoming increasingly indefensible Because at a
• 20:11
  Speaker 7: certain point, you just have to admit that there is
• 20:14
  Speaker 7: no good alternate explanation.
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: And one to that point had never been provided.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Have a little how it started, how it's going scenario
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: for you from a different, I guess you could call
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: them institution, Mark Cuban. Let's put E4 up on the screen.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: So this is when you were in the midst of
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: your investigation. He said, I'm on Team Balmer. As much
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: as I wish they circumvented the salary cap. First, Steve,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: isn't that dumb? If he did try to feed KL money,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: knowing what was at stake for him personally and his team,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: do you think he would let the company go bankrupt
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: knowing all creditors would be visible to the world? Then
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: he goes on to portray Steve Ballmer himself as a victim.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: He says they got scammed by Aspiration, along with many
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: other things, many others, crimes for which they pleaded guilty
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: last week. Scammers do scammy things. They did a $ 300
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: million sponsorship deal with the Clippers in 2021. That's a
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: huge deal. The better the team does, the more value
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: the sponsorship has. It actually makes perfect sense. that if
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: they stole money from investors and want the Clippers to succeed,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: why not give stolen money to help keep their best player?
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: It's sad that Pablo Torre didn't take the time to
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: find out how these scammers pulled off their scam. The idea,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: the default is Balmer is the bad guy is going
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: to backfire on him. Let's go and put the next
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: one up on the screen. So after you were proven 100%
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: absolutely correct, this is what you get. Congrats, Pablo.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:35
  Speaker 6: One, thank you.
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Mark.
• 21:37
  Speaker 8: I'd like to say that officially.
• 21:39
  Speaker 7: You are invited, standing invitation to come back on the
• 21:42
  Speaker 7: show to Frost Nixon with me again, if you'd like.
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: My thing with this, part of that defense.
• 21:47
  Speaker 7: By the way, fundamentally is you don't know how business
• 21:51
  Speaker 7: works because I'm a billionaire and you're not.
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: And you don't understand what it's like to have this
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: much money.
• 21:57
  Speaker 7: And this has become this larger argument, which we've heard,
• 22:00
  Speaker 7: which is that no one that rich and that credentialed
• 22:05
  Speaker 7: would be that dumb.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:07
  Speaker 7: And I just think it's really valuable to use sports
• 22:10
  Speaker 7: in this case to debunk that myth. You do not
• 22:14
  Speaker 7: need to be a billionaire to know why what they
• 22:18
  Speaker 7: are doing is wrong. You do not need to have
• 22:22
  Speaker 7: gone to Harvard Business School to understand that a thing
• 22:25
  Speaker 7: that smells like a scam might be worthy of further
• 22:28
  Speaker 7: investigation on those terms.
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: And in the story of Mark.
• 22:32
  Speaker 7: Cuban's defense, It is still inexplicable to me how one
• 22:36
  Speaker 7: could have so much confidence about.
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: A story that they had not reported themselves.
• 22:41
  Speaker 7: And I think it's because of that same sensation of
• 22:45
  Speaker 7: it's a big club and you're.
• 22:46
  Speaker 6: Not in it.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's some good old fashioned class solidarity. That's what's
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: going on there.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: Thank you very much, Pablo.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: As always, you remain literally the number one sports reporter
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: in my book in the entire country.
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: So we appreciate you very much.
• 23:00
  Speaker 7: You guys are too kind any time, and I think
• 23:02
  Speaker 7: there will be some more stories that I'll be excited
• 23:05
  Speaker 7: to tell you.
• 23:05
  Speaker 8: About in the future.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Looking forward to that. Yesterday, Ryan and I had a
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: chance to sit down in studio with the deputy foreign
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: minister of Cuba. He gave us an update on the
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: humanitarian crisis in Cuba, how they are thinking about what
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: the U.S. wants to do to them, and many other things,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: including his thoughts on the Miami-based Cuban-American expat community. Let's
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: go ahead and take a look.
• 23:30
  Speaker 9: We are very excited today to be joined by Cuba's
• 23:32
  Speaker 9: Deputy Foreign Minister, Carlos Fernandez de Cosio.
• 23:36
  Speaker 8: Really appreciate you being here.
• 23:38
  Speaker 9: I know you don't get to the United States very often,
• 23:40
  Speaker 9: but glad you could take some time to come by here.
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: Thank you for having me in.
• 23:44
  Speaker 9: Yeah, so I know the UN General Assembly is meeting
• 23:47
  Speaker 9: next week, so I know you'll be having a lot
• 23:49
  Speaker 9: of meetings up there. But the last time that I
• 23:52
  Speaker 9: saw you was for an interview back in March in Havana.
• 23:55
  Speaker 9: And while I was there, There were multiple blackouts, including
• 24:00
  Speaker 9: one nationwide blackout. I remember there were already millions of
• 24:05
  Speaker 9: people without running water because of the embargo and the blockade. Afterwards,
• 24:09
  Speaker 9: there was one Russian tanker that was allowed to come through.
• 24:14
  Speaker 9: My understanding is that since then, there hasn't been any.
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: There hasn't been any other.
• 24:17
  Speaker 8: So that was March. You then had the punishing Caribbean summer.
• 24:22
  Speaker 9: What are the just circumstances for people on the ground
• 24:27
  Speaker 9: now that we're in September in Cuba and we're at
• 24:30
  Speaker 9: almost a year of no oil getting into the country
• 24:34
  Speaker 9: other than a shipment or two.
• 24:37
  Speaker 6: To tell you, imagine having in the normal world in
• 24:41
  Speaker 6: the 21st century, two to three hours of electricity per day.
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: Imagine the impact for just cooling your food, for working.
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: for reading, for watching television, for carrying out daily life,
• 24:58
  Speaker 6: to cope with heat in the summer when you only
• 25:02
  Speaker 6: have two to three hours of electricity. Then you could
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: spend weeks without the supply of water because as a
• 25:11
  Speaker 6: result of lack of energy or lack of electricity, water
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: is not being pumped. Or you have a sick person
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: at home with a chronic disease and you're not sure
• 25:20
  Speaker 6: how you could take them to the hospital an elderly person,
• 25:23
  Speaker 6: if you need to take them. If you're concerned that
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: you have a newborn whose life is dependent on a
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: machine that cannot stop and cannot suffer electrical failure, or
• 25:36
  Speaker 6: you're going to surgery and it's postponed because there's no
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: assurance of electricity, or if you're under surgery, it could
• 25:43
  Speaker 6: be stopped because of a serious failure. And that's what
• 25:46
  Speaker 6: we live today. The total blackouts that you speak about,
• 25:50
  Speaker 6: we have several of those. During the summer, we had
• 25:52
  Speaker 6: several of those. At the beginning of July, we had
• 25:55
  Speaker 6: two in the same week. And that is unpredictable. We've
• 25:59
  Speaker 6: been able to sustain it for some time. But the
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: impact on life implies that people that should not have
• 26:06
  Speaker 6: died have died. If you take the index of child mortality,
• 26:10
  Speaker 6: which was a little over four per thousand newborns, gone
• 26:16
  Speaker 6: up to nine, you can measure the amount of newborns
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: that have died. That should not have died in Cuba
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: because we have a robust, naturally robust health system. And
• 26:26
  Speaker 6: the aggression today is not only on fuel, it is
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: only on the import of solar panels and anything linked
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: to energy.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: What are some of the trade-offs that have had to
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: be made at hospitals? What's the impact of schooling? What
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: is the impact on businesses?
• 26:46
  Speaker 6: Businesses are not working full hours. the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,
• 26:50
  Speaker 6: there are people that have difficulty reaching, have to pay
• 26:54
  Speaker 6: a lot of money to be able to go to
• 26:55
  Speaker 6: work because of digital public transportation. And sometimes they reach
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: and then there's a blackout. So they don't know if
• 27:00
  Speaker 6: to stay, wait until electricity comes. And then in today's world,
• 27:04
  Speaker 6: if you don't have electricity, it's very difficult to work.
• 27:05
  Speaker 6: You don't have computers, you don't have systems at work.
• 27:08
  Speaker 6: It's very difficult. There are people, for example, in tourism
• 27:12
  Speaker 6: that earn a lot. And because tourism has been shut down,
• 27:16
  Speaker 6: The US has been putting pressure on every country so
• 27:18
  Speaker 6: that there's no tourism. There are people that are losing
• 27:21
  Speaker 6: their income. So there's a mass of working people in
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: Cuba that have depressed incomes at a moment when there's inflation.
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: The impact on public transportation, on taking kids to school.
• 27:34
  Speaker 6: Yet we were able, on September 1st, to inaugurate the
• 27:38
  Speaker 6: new school course. And I can assure you that in
• 27:41
  Speaker 6: better conditions and better guarantees, than most Latin American countries,
• 27:45
  Speaker 6: and even some communities in the United States. For close
• 27:48
  Speaker 6: to 1.5 million children, a lot of effort is done
• 27:51
  Speaker 6: under harsh conditions. Kids go to school with difficulty of
• 27:55
  Speaker 6: public transportation. It's practically impossible to give them school lunch,
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: and teachers have to work without electricity, without a fan,
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: under heat. It's very difficult.
• 28:04
  Speaker 9: And paradoxically, because of the education that a lot of
• 28:08
  Speaker 9: Cubans have gotten, when they have migrated to Central and
• 28:12
  Speaker 9: South America, They've been relatively successful, proportionally so compared to
• 28:16
  Speaker 9: say even some of the native people, let's say they
• 28:19
  Speaker 9: went to Bolivia or Costa Rica or Venezuela or wherever
• 28:22
  Speaker 9: they went. I'm curious what is happening to the population
• 28:28
  Speaker 9: of Cuba?
• 28:29
  Speaker 8: What would you estimate it at?
• 28:32
  Speaker 9: Because Cubans are now allowed to leave and then you
• 28:36
  Speaker 9: recently did some immigration reforms, allowed them to come back
• 28:39
  Speaker 9: and visit as well.
• 28:41
  Speaker 8: So how many people are leaving the island.
• 28:44
  Speaker 6: To understand the issue for Americans, the city of Detroit,
• 28:49
  Speaker 6: I believe, had about 2 million people. Today it's close
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: to 600,000, maybe half a million, because the economy in
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: Detroit has been depressed. And there are many other cities
• 28:58
  Speaker 6: in the United States with similar conditions. Those cities have
• 29:02
  Speaker 6: not been under economic warfare, under economic blockade. They just
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: have a depressed economy for a combination of reasons. In
• 29:10
  Speaker 6: the case of Cuba, there's a deliberate policy to make
• 29:14
  Speaker 6: life as unbearable as possible for the population. And as
• 29:17
  Speaker 6: you said, Cubans who are well trained as professionals or
• 29:21
  Speaker 6: as technicians know that if they go to countries in
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: the region, or even if they go to the United States,
• 29:28
  Speaker 6: they could find a job easily compared even to the
• 29:32
  Speaker 6: natives of those countries because they're better trained. They're healthier
• 29:35
  Speaker 6: and they can always go back to Cuba Right and
• 29:38
  Speaker 6: if it doesn't work out so you have out outgoing
• 29:42
  Speaker 6: migration from Cuba Which has an impact on the workforce
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: on the development, but it's understandable living conditions are so
• 29:49
  Speaker 6: harsh people tend to try to improve Right your situation.
• 29:53
  Speaker 8: What is any numbers though? I like any sense of
• 29:55
  Speaker 8: how how drastic the.
• 29:56
  Speaker 6: To give you an idea officially I We are 11
• 29:59
  Speaker 6: million people, but on a specific day in the week,
• 30:03
  Speaker 6: we calculate that we're over 9 million, 9.2, 9.3. So
• 30:07
  Speaker 6: there are people who are residents in Cuba, but they're
• 30:10
  Speaker 6: not in Cuba that day. So it's not people that
• 30:14
  Speaker 6: have necessarily taken the desire to permanently leave Cuba, but
• 30:19
  Speaker 6: they go to some other place, see if it works.
• 30:21
  Speaker 6: Some come back. Some stay. Some pull their family. Some
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: tell their family, stay at home there. I'll send you money.
• 30:27
  Speaker 6: They're better. There's schooling. There's hospitals and work. But I'll
• 30:30
  Speaker 6: send you money because I don't have the conditions where
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: I am enough to make you come over here and
• 30:36
  Speaker 6: live here.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: So what is your understanding of what the goal of
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: this policy is from the U.S.
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: Perspective?
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: What outcome are they trying to force?
• 30:43
  Speaker 6: The term they use is to take over Cuba, whatever
• 30:47
  Speaker 6: that means. That doesn't sound nice to us. We're a
• 30:50
  Speaker 6: sovereign nation. It has been tough for most or for
• 30:55
  Speaker 6: many U.S. politicians historically to understand that Cuba is and
• 30:59
  Speaker 6: has a right to be a sovereign nation. And that
• 31:01
  Speaker 6: is at the center of the problem. There are people
• 31:04
  Speaker 6: with more ambitious and more nasty agenda, which are influential
• 31:10
  Speaker 6: in the United States. But the government has a consistent
• 31:15
  Speaker 6: policy of trying to govern what occurs in Cuba, and
• 31:19
  Speaker 6: we refuse to accept that. So the goal today is
• 31:24
  Speaker 6: to punish the people of Cuba to a level that
• 31:29
  Speaker 6: it threatens a humanitarian crisis and with the aspiration that
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: this will lead to enough pressure on the government or
• 31:35
  Speaker 6: to overthrow the government. To force people to be irritated
• 31:40
  Speaker 6: with their government. Not that they naturally would be, but
• 31:43
  Speaker 6: to force that.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: And do you think that that is working?
• 31:47
  Speaker 6: It's going a long way. It's not going to make
• 31:49
  Speaker 6: the government collapse. nor is it going to make the
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: authorities in Cuba to say, OK, we surrender our sovereignty
• 31:56
  Speaker 6: and we ask the U.S. government, tell us what you
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: want us to do and come and govern and do
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: what you want.
• 32:02
  Speaker 9: It also feels like the policy is self-defeating in the
• 32:04
  Speaker 9: sense that usually the people that would lead these kinds
• 32:07
  Speaker 9: of protests would be the kind of educated people in
• 32:10
  Speaker 9: their 20s who kind of have the energy and the
• 32:12
  Speaker 9: spunk to get out in the street. But as you said,
• 32:15
  Speaker 9: they're leaving. If they're trying to improve their situation, one
• 32:21
  Speaker 9: way to do it is just head out, which is
• 32:25
  Speaker 9: much easier. They're leaving.
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: They understand what's happening. They may have some disagreement with
• 32:30
  Speaker 6: some of our policies, but they say, I want my country.
• 32:33
  Speaker 6: I don't want this to be Puerto Rico. I want
• 32:35
  Speaker 6: Cuba to be Cuban for Cubans. And they also, being educated,
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: they know what their salt has been in every country
• 32:44
  Speaker 6: that the U.S. has intervened militarily otherwise. it has not,
• 32:48
  Speaker 6: the record shows that it has not implied an improvement
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: of society or the livelihood. It implied quite the contrary.
• 32:56
  Speaker 6: So people are educated, and again, they could have some
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: kind of disagreement with an existing policy. At this moment
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: in Cuba, we're undergoing a very profound transformation socially and economically,
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: more profound than any moment since the 1960s, towards greater
• 33:13
  Speaker 6: market role, opening it, expansively towards the private sector. And
• 33:19
  Speaker 6: there are people, educated, well-placed in Cuba, who are highly
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: concerned with this. They're not going to come out against
• 33:26
  Speaker 6: the government because we know the government is trying to
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: adapt to a new reality, that this is something we
• 33:31
  Speaker 6: have been discussing for the past 15 years at least,
• 33:35
  Speaker 6: and that it has taken us time to put them forward,
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: waiting for a better moment. And we have understood that
• 33:41
  Speaker 6: a better moment is not going to come. We've got
• 33:43
  Speaker 6: to do it now. But these transformations are also creating
• 33:46
  Speaker 6: some concern with some people in Cuba, but the government
• 33:48
  Speaker 6: is going forward. Legislation is in place. It's being additional
• 33:52
  Speaker 6: legislation put in place and it's a dramatic change in Cuba.
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: What the outcome is going to be, we don't know,
• 34:00
  Speaker 6: but we need to do something to change the current reality.
• 34:02
  Speaker 9: And this is theoretically what people like Marco Rubio have
• 34:06
  Speaker 9: been pushing for decades. Say we want market reforms in Cuba.
• 34:11
  Speaker 9: We want to allow investment. We want to allow business creation.
• 34:15
  Speaker 9: So what has been the response from people in the
• 34:18
  Speaker 9: United States who have been demanding these changes from the
• 34:21
  Speaker 9: Cuban government to see them now happening?
• 34:26
  Speaker 6: You said theoretically. If you research profoundly, the record has
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: shown that most attempts of reforming Cuba have been sabotaged
• 34:35
  Speaker 6: by the U.S., either through political pressure or provoking situations
• 34:39
  Speaker 6: that the government steps back. That's the real history. Now,
• 34:46
  Speaker 6: we're not waiting for a reaction by the U.S. government
• 34:49
  Speaker 6: because these are transformations that we're making for the people
• 34:51
  Speaker 6: of Cuba, for improving Cuba. And because we know that
• 34:54
  Speaker 6: anything we ask, the answer is going to be, we
• 34:57
  Speaker 6: don't agree with that, that doesn't meet our expectation, and
• 34:59
  Speaker 6: we believe that we should not meet the U.S. expectations.
• 35:03
  Speaker 6: But you correctly point out that the kind of transportation
• 35:06
  Speaker 6: that are taking place in Cuba, moving towards the market,
• 35:10
  Speaker 6: expanding the private sector, giving opportunities for individuals in Cuba,
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: who live in Cuba, for Cubans that live outside of Cuba,
• 35:18
  Speaker 6: for foreigners that don't live in Cuba, to do business
• 35:22
  Speaker 6: in Cuba with a more transparent legislation, with more predictable legislation,
• 35:26
  Speaker 6: that is occurring in Cuba today, with limitations. When you're
• 35:30
  Speaker 6: under the level of aggression that we are, you have limitations,
• 35:33
  Speaker 6: and with some lack of experience. We're welcome, we're receiving
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: it from some countries that are advising us, with different
• 35:41
  Speaker 6: points of views, some of them with a lot of knowledge,
• 35:43
  Speaker 6: but without understanding of Cuba. And we're trying to do that,
• 35:46
  Speaker 6: to try to move in the direction that can change
• 35:49
  Speaker 6: Cuba and improve it in the way we are now.
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: But I repeat, influential people in the United States have
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: historically tried to put obstacles to Cuba's reforms.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: So based on the public reporting, there are no current
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: diplomatic talks between the U.S. and Cuba. Is that accurate?
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: And is that something that Cuba is seeking?
• 36:11
  Speaker 6: There's no standing system of dialogue. We maintain contact and
• 36:18
  Speaker 6: we mutually have expressed ready. We've had a few meetings.
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: We have not rejected the possibility of other meetings. But
• 36:26
  Speaker 6: when we say that there's no progress, we based on
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: the fact which is evident that if if almost on
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: a weekly basis, you're applying new sanctions and you're applying
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: new pressures on Cuba, it is evident that there's no progress.
• 36:40
  Speaker 6: We also try to be discreet. It's a general approach,
• 36:44
  Speaker 6: historically we've had, and we keep it under, we don't want,
• 36:47
  Speaker 6: we are against the leaks that come out in the media,
• 36:49
  Speaker 6: which distort reality, which do not really represent what's going on.
• 36:53
  Speaker 6: But what I can tell you is that in these talks,
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: they're not negotiations, they're talks, communications, There has not been
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: an expression yet by the US that they're ready to
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: work with Cuba for a constructive and respectful relationship between
• 37:09
  Speaker 6: two sovereign nations to solve bilateral issues, to construct a
• 37:15
  Speaker 6: mutually beneficial relationship. There has been no proposal in that direction,
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: as there has been no proposal to alleviate the situation
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: of the people of Cuba that results from US aggression. None. whatsoever.
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: And I say this because there have been articles saying
• 37:33
  Speaker 6: that none of that has existed to now.
• 37:37
  Speaker 9: Do they bring up Gaessa in any of the negotiations?
• 37:41
  Speaker 9: Marco Rubio has made a huge deal, the Miami Herald
• 37:43
  Speaker 9: has made a huge deal about the role of Gaessa
• 37:46
  Speaker 9: in the Cuban economy. And how does Gaessa fit into
• 37:51
  Speaker 9: the market reforms that you are rolling out now? Is
• 37:55
  Speaker 9: that Is that a rhetorical element of their objection, or
• 38:00
  Speaker 9: is there something substantial there that they want you to do?
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: The real name of that organization is GAI, not GAISA. Okay.
• 38:07
  Speaker 8: I already said it, GAISA.
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: This comes out of Miami as GAISA, but it's GAI.
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: And it's an organization that exists in almost every country,
• 38:16
  Speaker 6: including the U.S. Cuba, because of being a developing country,
• 38:22
  Speaker 6: because of relatively limited natural resources that can serve as
• 38:27
  Speaker 6: capital formation. And the fact that we have access to
• 38:31
  Speaker 6: no source of capital has had organizations, of which GAIA
• 38:34
  Speaker 6: has been one, that help accumulate capital for us, our development.
• 38:39
  Speaker 6: So you ask yourselves, where did the growth of tourism
• 38:43
  Speaker 6: that make Cuba change its economic matrix in the 1990s
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: and became the main source of income come from? Where
• 38:50
  Speaker 6: does Cuba biotechnology industry come from? How were we able
• 38:54
  Speaker 6: to build such a robust medical system? Where did the
• 38:57
  Speaker 6: investment come? It didn't come from the World Bank. It
• 38:59
  Speaker 6: didn't come from any financial institution. It came from our
• 39:03
  Speaker 6: own resources, through organizations like GAESA, whose role is to
• 39:10
  Speaker 6: take part of the income and try to capitalize for
• 39:13
  Speaker 6: the development and for investment in society. Because the specific
• 39:18
  Speaker 6: case of GAESA is linked to armed forces in Cuba,
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: the Secretary of State, even before being Secretary of State,
• 39:25
  Speaker 6: targeted as a usual propaganda mechanism. These are the military
• 39:30
  Speaker 6: that use resources to do malign things and nasty things
• 39:35
  Speaker 6: and to intervene in other countries, all of which is
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: totally untrue. So he targets gas, which already today does not,
• 39:42
  Speaker 6: for different reasons, doesn't have neither the size nor the
• 39:46
  Speaker 6: influence in the Cuban economy it had in the past.
• 39:48
  Speaker 6: among other things, because of reality that we face and
• 39:51
  Speaker 6: reorganization that we have today in the Cuban economy. But
• 39:54
  Speaker 6: I insist, it's not the only one. And I don't
• 39:56
  Speaker 6: mention others because I don't want.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: New targets to come up. As you know, the U.S.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: has been very busy around the world. We had talks
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: that were ongoing with Venezuela and then decided to indict
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: President Maduro and effectively kidnap him and has done this
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: deal with Delce Rodriguez, taken the Venezuelan oil. We launched
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: a war of aggression against Iran again whilst we were
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: in the midst of diplomatic, alleged diplomatic talks with them.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: What sort of lessons have you taken from the Trump
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: administration's actions around the world?
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: That we're living in a very aggressive world. The world
• 40:31
  Speaker 6: is practically divided between the respect to international law or
• 40:37
  Speaker 6: the lack of respect. respect to UN charter, the recognition
• 40:42
  Speaker 6: of sovereign equality or not, and the recognition of the
• 40:47
  Speaker 6: rights of nations to build their own future or not.
• 40:50
  Speaker 6: The US approach is, they call it peace through force,
• 40:54
  Speaker 6: which means imposing US, what they identify as US interests.
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: I wonder if they are the interests of the US
• 41:02
  Speaker 6: citizens as a whole or the interests of us, exclusive
• 41:06
  Speaker 6: elite group in the United States. But that's another discussion.
• 41:09
  Speaker 6: And impose it by strength and by force. It's the
• 41:12
  Speaker 6: most powerful nation on earth. And it carries out kidnappings
• 41:15
  Speaker 6: as the one that you just mentioned.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Do you think Venezuela could be a model that they
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: pursue in Cuba?
• 41:23
  Speaker 6: They could try. And I think they would increasingly understand
• 41:26
  Speaker 6: that they will fail. That attempt will fail. It's a
• 41:30
  Speaker 6: different country, different reality.
• 41:33
  Speaker 9: Solar panel growth, when I was there in March, I
• 41:38
  Speaker 9: think there were some periods of time where up to 20%
• 41:40
  Speaker 9: or so of the energy, and some days even more,
• 41:44
  Speaker 9: was coming from solar panels.
• 41:46
  Speaker 6: I would say 12%, 14%.
• 41:48
  Speaker 9: 12%, 14%. How is that unfolding now? And what has
• 41:53
  Speaker 9: the U.S. posture been? You were referencing an attempt by
• 41:57
  Speaker 9: the U.S. to kind of stall that as well.
• 42:00
  Speaker 6: Stalls it? When they speak of they want to severe
• 42:04
  Speaker 6: Cuba's relationship with China, the greatest element that we import
• 42:07
  Speaker 6: from China are solar panels, which is a country that
• 42:09
  Speaker 6: produces the most and the cheapest. And the U.S. refuses
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: to sell them to Cuba. So why wouldn't we?
• 42:16
  Speaker 9: Has that stopped the import of panels?
• 42:19
  Speaker 6: No, it hasn't stopped.
• 42:20
  Speaker 8: But it's slowed?
• 42:20
  Speaker 6: There are obstacles in place. I mean, the difficult through
• 42:23
  Speaker 6: the shipping companies, through routes, payments, different ways. But it
• 42:30
  Speaker 6: continues to be Part of our plans, we've continued to
• 42:34
  Speaker 6: invest in that. It doesn't solve all our problems because
• 42:38
  Speaker 6: solar energy is irregular. It's very intense specific time of
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: the day and specific times of the year, but not always.
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: It needs to be supported by batteries, by other investments.
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: We have a very fast learning curve in terms of
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: the amount of time we need to invest and put
• 42:57
  Speaker 6: in shape in one of the fields. and to invest
• 43:00
  Speaker 6: in the different areas and to understand the technology. But
• 43:03
  Speaker 6: that continues. Not only with that, also with wind, also
• 43:06
  Speaker 6: with the use of biogas. We're trying to see with
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: waste management that we can produce electricity. That kind of
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: problems we have.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Is there any hope of another tanker being able to
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: come through?
• 43:17
  Speaker 6: Lots of hope. Because the fact that tankers don't come
• 43:21
  Speaker 6: is a gross violation of international law. The U.S. intimidating
• 43:24
  Speaker 6: every country in the world. We hope that at some
• 43:27
  Speaker 6: point that that violation of international law would stop occurring. Remember,
• 43:33
  Speaker 6: all of this is based on the allegation by the
• 43:38
  Speaker 6: US that Cuba, a relatively small country in the Caribbean,
• 43:42
  Speaker 6: poses an unusual and extraordinary threat to US national security
• 43:48
  Speaker 6: and US foreign policy. Now, forget ideology. As a matter
• 43:52
  Speaker 6: of common sense, can Cuba pose a threat to a
• 43:57
  Speaker 6: nuclear power? with 5,200 nuclear warheads, 11 aircraft carriers, military
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: bases all over the world, including in our hemisphere. Is
• 44:07
  Speaker 6: it logical? Is it credible to believe? Yet, based on
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: that claim, the U.S. applies secondary sanctions or intimidates of
• 44:17
  Speaker 6: applying to every country around the world. And nobody questions it.
• 44:22
  Speaker 9: Those sanctions seem to be working. Major companies are... that
• 44:26
  Speaker 9: have been with Cuba for a very long time are
• 44:27
  Speaker 9: pulling out. I don't know how you can even answer this,
• 44:33
  Speaker 9: but how long can this go on? And what is
• 44:36
  Speaker 9: Cuba doing to try to reverse the outflow of these companies?
• 44:39
  Speaker 6: It's a difficult question to answer. Imagine if Canada, Spain, France, California,
• 44:48
  Speaker 6: or the state of New York were all of a
• 44:50
  Speaker 6: sudden cut from the U.S. and from the rest of
• 44:53
  Speaker 6: the world. How long will they last? With no fuel,
• 44:57
  Speaker 6: no use of the U.S. currency, materials can't come in,
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: choked as a medieval siege on that territory. So how
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: can it last? We don't know. We hope that we
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: can sustain it, but the pain is there. And I
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: was describing it at the beginning. It's got a human
• 45:16
  Speaker 6: cost with elderly people, with newborns, the population as a whole,
• 45:22
  Speaker 6: on a daily basis. Most of the reports by US
• 45:26
  Speaker 6: media speak about the irritation of the population, of course, protests,
• 45:30
  Speaker 6: people complaining, but they only touch the surface. They don't
• 45:33
  Speaker 6: go to what's happened in a home with real problems,
• 45:37
  Speaker 6: in a hospital, in a school, in a maternity ward.
• 45:41
  Speaker 6: That's where the effect of this is really felt.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: As I'm sure you know, we have a significant and
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: powerful voting bloc of Cuban Americans in the US who
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: have broadly been supportive of aggressive posture towards Cuba. How
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: do you think about that group and their priorities and
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: the way that they influence politics here in the U.S.?
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: It's unfortunate.
• 46:04
  Speaker 6: It's a rare issue. I never thought that the Vietnamese
• 46:09
  Speaker 6: would support damaging their country or the Irish or the Italians,
• 46:14
  Speaker 6: even in the times of Mussolini, that they would agree
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: with the U.S. punishing the population of Italy or the
• 46:19
  Speaker 6: population of another country with which the U.S., yet it
• 46:24
  Speaker 6: occurs with not all the Cubans, but influential Cubans. And
• 46:29
  Speaker 6: their power is not so much in their votes, but
• 46:33
  Speaker 6: in the amount of money. Because it's the elite, the
• 46:36
  Speaker 6: powerful ones, that contribute to the political parties, basically the
• 46:40
  Speaker 6: Republican Party. I think it's an extension to believe that
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: they represent the totality of the feelings of Cubans towards Cuba.
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: But if you look at today the reality, specifically in Miami,
• 46:52
  Speaker 6: There's fear among the population. People don't want to say
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: the wrong words. They don't want to make the wrong statement.
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: They don't want to travel to Cuba to meet with
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: their families because they think they can feel consequences from
• 47:05
  Speaker 6: the authorities or from powerful people in Miami if they
• 47:08
  Speaker 6: do so. The U.S.
• 47:10
  Speaker 9: Has said it was going to send $ 100- plus million in aid.
• 47:13
  Speaker 9: We actually reported that a significant portion of that was
• 47:16
  Speaker 9: going to be Starlinks that they were trying to get
• 47:19
  Speaker 9: Cuba to take.
• 47:20
  Speaker 6: Originally. Now they're sending... food kits, and of the 100
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: million that were urgently going to be sent to Cuba
• 47:28
  Speaker 6: announced at the Vatican in the month of June, end
• 47:30
  Speaker 6: of June or beginning of July, they've sent food kits
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: in two batches for 700 families, which is a bag
• 47:39
  Speaker 6: of beans, some detergent toothpaste, something like that, some rice,
• 47:47
  Speaker 6: some small canned foods, Basically.
• 47:49
  Speaker 8: And they're calling that 100 million or they're saying, I
• 47:51
  Speaker 8: don't know how they're going.
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: To reach 100 million. They must be now close to 80,000,
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: 90,000 dollars. These are overpriced. But to reach 100 million
• 48:01
  Speaker 6: is going to take a long time. And so this
• 48:02
  Speaker 6: is like they exclude medicine and they exclude powdered milk,
• 48:06
  Speaker 6: which are basic needs in Cuba.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so this is sort of a PR stunt
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: from the U.S.
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: Perspective.
• 48:12
  Speaker 9: If it's anything like our weapons industry, 90 percent of
• 48:14
  Speaker 9: it will stay here in northern Virginia.
• 48:17
  Speaker 8: As profit.
• 48:18
  Speaker 6: When the Secretary of State announced it in the Vatican,
• 48:23
  Speaker 6: he had not yet spoken to the government of Cuba
• 48:25
  Speaker 6: about that, not even spoken to the religious organizations. And
• 48:29
  Speaker 6: then he claimed that we were refusing it. They hadn't
• 48:32
  Speaker 6: even mentioned it.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Incredible.
• 48:35
  Speaker 9: Well, Deputy Foreign Minister Carlos Fernandez de Cossio, thank you
• 48:39
  Speaker 9: so much for joining us.
• 48:40
  Speaker 8: We very much appreciate it.
• 48:41
  Speaker 6: It's been a pleasure.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you.