Latest / Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries / #446: Voyager's Future Paths, Black Hole Star Quenching & Ultimate Temperature Limits
Transcript
- 0:00Speaker 1: Oh again, thank you for joining us.
- 0:02Speaker 2: This is a Q and A edition of Space Nuts.
- 0:04Speaker 2: My name is Andrew Dunkley. Coming up, we're going to
- 0:08Speaker 2: be looking at Voyager one and Voyager two. A question
- 0:10Speaker 2: from Alan Ron wants to talk about star formation and
- 0:15Speaker 2: Tom has brought up that maximum potential temperature in the
- 0:21Speaker 2: universe thing again. We'll talk about all of that and
- 0:24Speaker 2: more on this episode of Space Nuts.
- 0:27Speaker 3: Fifteen second in Channel ten nine ignition Space Nuts or
- 0:36Speaker 3: three two one Space Nurse as the night reported, Neil's
- 0:42Speaker 3: good and here.
- 0:44Speaker 2: To answer them all with a massive disclaimer is Professor
- 0:48Speaker 2: Fred Watson as Dorono Merill Tiphrad.
- 0:52Speaker 4: How are you, Andrew?
- 0:53Speaker 5: I'm just reading one questions now and sech I wonder
- 0:56Speaker 5: what the answer to that is, just as he was sitting.
- 0:58Speaker 4: Yes, we're going to throw all the questions.
- 1:00Speaker 2: I think if we if we write a letter to
- 1:03Speaker 2: the Astronomical Union and just sit and wait, we can
- 1:06Speaker 2: answer it in a couple of.
- 1:07Speaker 4: Weeks' worse a long episode.
- 1:12Speaker 2: Yet, let's just get straight down to it, shall we.
- 1:17Speaker 2: First question comes from Alan Bye.
- 1:20Speaker 6: This is Alan Skalhill Roll Medicine, not Alberta, Canada. My
- 1:25Speaker 6: question is can the trajectory of Voyager one and two
- 1:31Speaker 6: be extrapolated to determine what galaxy, star or planet they
- 1:36Speaker 6: could come into contact with in the distant future, and
- 1:40Speaker 6: what would the likely outcome be of such a contact,
- 1:43Speaker 6: but they be pulled into the orbit of any of
- 1:46Speaker 6: these space structures.
- 1:48Speaker 4: Thank you, love your podcast.
- 1:50Speaker 2: Thank you Allen. Nice to hear from you again. I
- 1:52Speaker 2: remember him distinctly because of where he lives Madison Hat. Yeah,
- 1:58Speaker 2: but it's a question I think that we've had come
- 2:02Speaker 2: up before in a different form, people wondering where they're
- 2:06Speaker 2: headed and what they might run into. The answer is, well,
- 2:10Speaker 2: probably not that complicated for.
- 2:12Speaker 5: It at the moment, I think they are. I don't
- 2:19Speaker 5: think you can actually identify anything that they're heading towards
- 2:23Speaker 5: because we've got blank sky in that direction. And just
- 2:29Speaker 5: the disclaimer here, you never quite know what sort of
- 2:32Speaker 5: perturbation they're going to have on the way by, you know,
- 2:36Speaker 5: out gassing from the spacecraft or a little bit of
- 2:38Speaker 5: residual solar wind. It could alter the trajectory. But I
- 2:42Speaker 5: do remember turning the question on its head when your
- 2:47Speaker 5: old friend Umuamora was first discovered. The extrapolation backwards in
- 2:55Speaker 5: time forma put it somewhere near the star of one
- 3:00Speaker 5: of the brightest stars in the in the sky. But
- 3:05Speaker 5: the disclaimer there was we don't know when it left,
- 3:09Speaker 5: and Vega would have been in a different place when
- 3:13Speaker 5: it left from what what we see now, because you're
- 3:17Speaker 5: talking about journey times of millions of years.
- 3:19Speaker 4: And I think the same.
- 3:20Speaker 5: Is true of you know, of the two voyagers, and
- 3:24Speaker 5: probably new Horizons as well. Pioneer spacecraft are also leaving
- 3:28Speaker 5: the Solar System. All of them, I think, are heading
- 3:31Speaker 5: for regions unknown. And it's partly, as I said, because
- 3:35Speaker 5: we don't know. You know, first of all, how long
- 3:37Speaker 5: is it going to take them to to have an
- 3:40Speaker 5: interaction with another body? And until you know that, you
- 3:44Speaker 5: don't know where that other body is going to be
- 3:46Speaker 5: in the first place.
- 3:46Speaker 4: So it's.
- 3:49Speaker 2: We're talking flight times of potentially billions of years? Are
- 3:55Speaker 2: we so right now? We couldn't tell you, but of years,
- 4:00Speaker 2: so much will have changed, so much will have moved,
- 4:04Speaker 2: something might get in the way and influence them, or
- 4:08Speaker 2: maybe they'll just go on forever and not hit a thing.
- 4:12Speaker 5: That's right, So you know, in a billion years time,
- 4:16Speaker 5: our galaxy will have rotated five times in the in
- 4:20Speaker 5: the at the distance of the Sun from the from
- 4:23Speaker 5: the galactic center, so you've got all that swirling stuff
- 4:26Speaker 5: going on as well. You know, the journey of every
- 4:30Speaker 5: star around the center of the galaxy takes them on
- 4:33Speaker 5: past that aren't identical by any means, So you might
- 4:36Speaker 5: very well find in a billion years you're looking at
- 4:39Speaker 5: a completely different set of stars that it might run into.
- 4:43Speaker 4: Yes.
- 4:43Speaker 5: But the bottom line though, and the answer to the
- 4:47Speaker 5: final part of the question, is it would The likelihood
- 4:51Speaker 5: is that it would wind up going into orbits around something.
- 4:54Speaker 5: A direct collision is unlikely but not impossible, but winding
- 5:01Speaker 5: up in orbit around something else is perhaps the most
- 5:04Speaker 5: likely outcome. Whether it's probably going to be a star,
- 5:07Speaker 5: maybe a planet might become the artificial mode of the planet.
- 5:10Speaker 2: Yeah, well the Earth has picked up the odd rock,
- 5:13Speaker 2: hasn't it in recent times? So yeah, that's a possibility.
- 5:18Speaker 2: But we're not talking any time in the near future.
- 5:21Speaker 2: I mean, Voyager one and Voyager two barely out of
- 5:25Speaker 2: our rum, out of the Sun's influence, let alone getting
- 5:29Speaker 2: into deep interstellar space. They're only just sort of sort
- 5:33Speaker 2: of on that on on that on that border zone,
- 5:35Speaker 2: aren't they. Now that's right, Yes, so long way to
- 5:39Speaker 2: go yet, Alan, a very long way to go, and
- 5:42Speaker 2: maybe they'll never see a thing and probably go cheese.
- 5:44Speaker 1: Is it boring? Are we there yet?
- 5:47Speaker 4: That's right, It probably will go forever. It's straw. Wish
- 5:53Speaker 4: I'd brought more cassettes. Yes, quiet, Let's move on to.
- 6:02Speaker 2: Our next question. This comes from Ron A question for
- 6:06Speaker 2: you from upstate New York. I'll be in upstate New
- 6:10Speaker 2: York in the latter half of next year. Wrong, just
- 6:15Speaker 2: in case you want to have lunch. I've seen a
- 6:17Speaker 2: few posts about star formation being extinguished by the outflow
- 6:21Speaker 2: of the super massive black hole at the galactic core.
- 6:25Speaker 2: The paper star formation shut down by a multi phase
- 6:28Speaker 2: gas outflow in a galaxy at a red shift of
- 6:32Speaker 2: two point four to five inches. I assume that is
- 6:35Speaker 2: discusses the higher outflow.
- 6:38Speaker 1: Is it minutes discussed.
- 6:40Speaker 5: As the highest neither, it's just the other quotation mark
- 6:43Speaker 5: from the.
- 6:44Speaker 1: End of the quote.
- 6:44Speaker 2: It's all right, discuss this two point four to five
- 6:47Speaker 2: discuss us the higher outflow of Thank you, cool and
- 6:50Speaker 2: neutral guests. Well discovered discovered? What should I start again?
- 6:54Speaker 2: Discovered by the web space telescope. I can understand how
- 6:58Speaker 2: this outflow would interrupt the stellar formation of the path
- 7:01Speaker 2: of these jets. But I don't see the mechanism for
- 7:05Speaker 2: this black hole to quench stellar formation across the entire galaxy.
- 7:09Speaker 2: Do these jets process and sweep across the galaxy? Hopefully
- 7:13Speaker 2: doctor Watson can shed some light on this thanks to
- 7:17Speaker 2: the great podcast Always a Learning Experience, and they send
- 7:21Speaker 2: us a link to an article about this very thing.
- 7:25Speaker 1: Thank you, Ron. Can you just for me dumb down
- 7:29Speaker 1: his questions?
- 7:32Speaker 5: Yes, So it's basically, and I should say, this is
- 7:39Speaker 5: a really complex area of galactic astronomy, the astronomy of galaxies,
- 7:48Speaker 5: and you've got some processes. It depends on gas flows,
- 7:56Speaker 5: the environment of the galaxy, whether it's surrounded by other galaxies, weather,
- 8:00Speaker 5: there's a black hole in the middle of it, and
- 8:04Speaker 5: all of you know, all of that throws into the
- 8:06Speaker 5: mix as to whether you get this quenching effect of
- 8:13Speaker 5: the gas flow can quench style formation, for example, until
- 8:18Speaker 5: stars don't form us rapidly. So I'm just having a
- 8:21Speaker 5: look now at the Cosmos article that Ron tends us
- 8:25Speaker 5: are linked to, and it's so here's the sentence, and
- 8:32Speaker 5: thank you.
- 8:33Speaker 4: Who am I quoting?
- 8:36Speaker 5: I think I might be I might a should be
- 8:39Speaker 5: quoting a press release, in which case that's all right,
- 8:42Speaker 5: because I can't find an author for this article. But
- 8:45Speaker 5: that's okay. I'm quoting Cosmos magazine. That's the Australian homegrown
- 8:51Speaker 5: science magazine. It's long been thought that outflows from super
- 8:55Speaker 5: massive black holes can suppress style formation, but direct observational
- 8:59Speaker 5: evidence this has now been lacking. How can a black
- 9:01Speaker 5: hole have an outflow in the first place A fair question,
- 9:05Speaker 5: given that black holes are meant to be so dense
- 9:07Speaker 5: the gravitational field can prevent even light from escaping. So
- 9:12Speaker 5: the best scientists, I think I'd agree with all scientists
- 9:16Speaker 5: aren't completely sure, and I think we are pretty sure actually.
- 9:18Speaker 5: But the best theory suggests that spinning black holes have
- 9:21Speaker 5: this outflow would flow of matter in the form of
- 9:24Speaker 5: vertical jets of material, and it's all about conserving angular momentum.
- 9:28Speaker 4: It's also about magnetic fields. I might throw it and
- 9:32Speaker 4: so okay.
- 9:33Speaker 5: So much of difficulty in proving that this car that
- 9:36Speaker 5: this wind is suppressing star formation is because previous studies
- 9:40Speaker 5: have been limited to studying ionized gases, which are warm
- 9:43Speaker 5: in the black hole outflows. But the new study shows
- 9:46Speaker 5: that more than ninety percent of the wind is made
- 9:48Speaker 5: up of cool neutral gas, effectively invisible in previous research.
- 9:53Speaker 5: And so I think that is the hint that the
- 9:59Speaker 5: outflow that we're seeing, they says of the order of
- 10:02Speaker 5: one hundred times larger than what we thought it was,
- 10:06Speaker 5: because this is in the outflow rate of the neutral
- 10:09Speaker 5: gas there, not the ionized gas that's had its electrons
- 10:12Speaker 5: stripped off, and so you've got much more outflowing mass
- 10:16Speaker 5: than was thought of before. And it's so what it
- 10:23Speaker 5: says is and again i'm quoting now. Who am I
- 10:27Speaker 5: quoting now? Rebecca Davis from Swimburn. Thanks mate, Rebecca, Welcome
- 10:34Speaker 5: to space Nuts. Rebecca says the outflow is removing gas
- 10:41Speaker 5: faster than gas is being converted into stars, indicating that
- 10:45Speaker 5: the outflow is likely to have a very significant impact
- 10:48Speaker 5: on the evolution of the galaxy. Our findings provide new
- 10:51Speaker 5: evidence to indicate that black hole driven outflows are able
- 10:54Speaker 5: to rapidly shut off or quench. There you go the
- 10:57Speaker 5: word I use myself staff imation in math gallus. So
- 11:00Speaker 5: I think the answer to the question is, and you know,
- 11:04Speaker 5: I think basically Ron thinking of the idea of jets
- 11:12Speaker 5: of material coming from black holes, which is the way
- 11:14Speaker 5: they are. But when they get to higher galactic latitudes,
- 11:20Speaker 5: in other words, higher distances above or below the galactic plane,
- 11:24Speaker 5: then that those jets become lobes, we call them lobes.
- 11:29Speaker 5: They become big bubbles of gas. And if there's one
- 11:32Speaker 5: hundred times more forming those outflows than we can actually see,
- 11:37Speaker 5: it means those gas bubbles are big enough that they
- 11:40Speaker 5: can affect the whole galaxy, or at least much of
- 11:44Speaker 5: the galaxy, which is really the question that Ron's asking,
- 11:48Speaker 5: and it's a great question. So you know, we tend
- 11:51Speaker 5: to think of these jets as being focused just vertically
- 11:54Speaker 5: one way and the other from the black hole, but
- 11:57Speaker 5: they're really spreading out in a large into a large
- 12:01Speaker 5: blob to the north and south of the black hole,
- 12:04Speaker 5: which can basically permeate the entire galaxy.
- 12:07Speaker 4: So I think that's the answer to the question.
- 12:09Speaker 1: Okay, don't keep.
- 12:10Speaker 2: Very good, Thank you, Ron, great question, Thanks for sending
- 12:13Speaker 2: it in.
- 12:14Speaker 1: This is Space Nuts.
- 12:15Speaker 2: Andrew Dunkley here and Professor Fred Watson there left right
- 12:19Speaker 2: up down.
- 12:20Speaker 4: Not sure.
- 12:22Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break from the show to tell
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- 14:38Speaker 7: Three space Nuts.
- 14:43Speaker 2: Okay, Fred, we have another audio question. This one comes
- 14:48Speaker 2: Strom Tom. This is Tom in Orlando, or Florida.
- 14:54Speaker 1: Have a question.
- 14:55Speaker 7: One of the listeners was asking about absolute limit on temperature,
- 15:00Speaker 7: lower temperature and the upper limit and Fred mentioned that
- 15:05Speaker 7: the upper limit there was none because partugles can move
- 15:10Speaker 7: as fast as they want to wouldn't the speed a light.
- 15:13Speaker 7: I mean, there's a limit, an upper limit on a
- 15:16Speaker 7: speed particles with the speed of light. Wouldn't that let
- 15:21Speaker 7: be a limit limiting factor on the upper round on
- 15:24Speaker 7: the temperature limit. Anyway, thanks for the great show.
- 15:28Speaker 2: All right, thank you, Tom. We understand absolute zero being
- 15:34Speaker 2: where all motion stops. Tom's suggestion is absolute max temperature
- 15:39Speaker 2: is limited by the speed of light.
- 15:41Speaker 1: I think that's where he was going.
- 15:43Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's that's exactly right. So that you know
- 15:47Speaker 5: that would represent a maximum temperature because your particles are
- 15:51Speaker 5: all traveling at the speed of light. And the reason
- 15:53Speaker 5: why it's not the case is that you know, if
- 15:58Speaker 5: you continue to heat a gap. So yes, the temperature
- 16:02Speaker 5: of the gases is a reflection of how fast the
- 16:05Speaker 5: particles of the gas are moving. You continue to heat it,
- 16:10Speaker 5: they move faster and faster, and they can approach the
- 16:13Speaker 5: speed of light. But of course, the only thing that
- 16:15Speaker 5: can go the speed of light is light itself or
- 16:18Speaker 5: electromagnetic radiation, because what happens is as you put more
- 16:22Speaker 5: energy in, it's taking more and more energy to accelerate
- 16:28Speaker 5: the particles, and they what we call a symptotically approach
- 16:32Speaker 5: the speed of light. They never get to it. So
- 16:35Speaker 5: you can put as much energy as you like in
- 16:37Speaker 5: and the particles that get more energetic, but they won't
- 16:41Speaker 5: exceed the speed of light, and there's no stop. But
- 16:45Speaker 5: you can keep on putting energy in and they'll nudge
- 16:50Speaker 5: that little bit nearer to the speed of light. In
- 16:54Speaker 5: fact that you know, the bottom line is that to
- 16:57Speaker 5: reach the speed of light, you've got to provide something
- 16:59Speaker 5: within energy. That's what Einstein's special relativity theory says, and
- 17:03Speaker 5: it's been proven many times.
- 17:05Speaker 4: So if you put infinite.
- 17:07Speaker 5: Energy in, then you know you hit the speed of light,
- 17:12Speaker 5: but you haven't got infinite energy.
- 17:14Speaker 4: That's what we're talking about.
- 17:14Speaker 5: An absolute maximum for the temperature. So the temperature, the
- 17:19Speaker 5: maximum temperature is infinity.
- 17:21Speaker 4: That's what it means. So there isn't one.
- 17:24Speaker 5: There is an absolute zero, but not an absolute maximum.
- 17:28Speaker 4: They are. Yeah, that's the bottom line.
- 17:31Speaker 5: There's a little bit more to it because relativity also
- 17:34Speaker 5: tells you that as things approach the speed of light,
- 17:37Speaker 5: they're mass increases, and that's why you need to put
- 17:41Speaker 5: more energy into, you know, to get them going any faster,
- 17:45Speaker 5: because their mass has gone up. So it's never going
- 17:49Speaker 5: to happen. You're always going to be able to add
- 17:52Speaker 5: more heat to it to increase the temperature. Even though
- 17:56Speaker 5: the particles might be traveling very near the speed of light,
- 17:58Speaker 5: they're not actually there.
- 18:00Speaker 3: Yeah.
- 18:01Speaker 2: You start off throwing a screwed up piece of paper,
- 18:03Speaker 2: and you know, as you get there and you're trying
- 18:05Speaker 2: to push a planet.
- 18:07Speaker 4: That's yes, not try it. That's it. That's exactly right. Yeah,
- 18:10Speaker 4: we are all.
- 18:11Speaker 2: Right, Thank you, Tom. I think we've got time for
- 18:14Speaker 2: one more quick one. This is this is a fun
- 18:16Speaker 2: question from Renny. It's a it's a what if question.
- 18:21Speaker 2: Rennie asks, if plants and animals were discovered on another
- 18:24Speaker 2: planet that we landed on, would we be able to
- 18:28Speaker 2: digest its plants and animals?
- 18:30Speaker 1: I assume it means could we, you know.
- 18:32Speaker 4: Feed ourselves. That's so.
- 18:35Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose if it was a planet like ours.
- 18:38Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know, but yeah, And.
- 18:40Speaker 5: It depended if we had water based living organisms, which
- 18:45Speaker 5: the planets plants and animals would be. There might be
- 18:49Speaker 5: similar enough two what we have on Earth that we
- 18:52Speaker 5: could digest them, but it might be a bit difficult.
- 18:55Speaker 5: And would you want to be the guinea pig? A
- 18:59Speaker 5: piece of meat from some rendered planet somewhere.
- 19:02Speaker 7: Yeah.
- 19:02Speaker 4: Thanks.
- 19:04Speaker 5: My guess is that that it will be unlikely. You know,
- 19:09Speaker 5: there might be trace elements that will be toxic to us,
- 19:14Speaker 5: even if it was a water based like form, that
- 19:16Speaker 5: there could be stuff in it that you really would
- 19:18Speaker 5: not want to buy with.
- 19:20Speaker 2: Notwithstanding the bacteria and virus impact that we would never
- 19:25Speaker 2: have been able to defend ourselves against.
- 19:27Speaker 1: This could be all sorts of reasons not to.
- 19:31Speaker 2: Yeah, so possible, yes, logical, No, maybe it's the best
- 19:39Speaker 2: way to answer it.
- 19:41Speaker 1: Thanks, Rennie, great question. I love that. I love the hypotheticals.
- 19:45Speaker 2: Just one more thing before we finish up, fred I
- 19:47Speaker 2: got a lovely message from Hannah the airline pilot the
- 19:50Speaker 2: other day. Hannah introduced herself to us some years ago
- 19:54Speaker 2: when she sent us photographed from the cockpit of her
- 19:57Speaker 2: British Airways airliner of not too lucent clouds. She's just
- 20:02Speaker 2: sent me some more photos, which I've shared on the
- 20:04Speaker 2: Space Nuts podcast group facebook page.
- 20:07Speaker 1: She's done a.
- 20:08Speaker 2: Time lapse of the super moon rise above the volcano
- 20:13Speaker 2: in South America on her way to visit Alma. So yeah, oh,
- 20:21Speaker 2: I'm so jealous.
- 20:22Speaker 1: I'm so jealous.
- 20:23Speaker 2: They're great photos, and especially that moon rise she took.
- 20:29Speaker 2: She was trying to do it handheld, so it's a
- 20:31Speaker 2: bit wobbly, but it's worth looking at. And yes, that
- 20:34Speaker 2: is a big volcano right next to the moon, so
- 20:37Speaker 2: it's amazing. And yes, getting to see the Alma Observatory. Yeah,
- 20:43Speaker 2: what a great, great opportunity for her. So thanks for
- 20:47Speaker 2: sharing those, Hannah and you can you can check those
- 20:49Speaker 2: out on our Space Nuts podcast group Facebook page.
- 20:54Speaker 1: There you go, We're all done, Fred, Thanks for answering
- 20:57Speaker 1: those questions.
- 20:59Speaker 5: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much for asking them
- 21:04Speaker 5: my pleasure.
- 21:05Speaker 2: Indeed a late message from TTJ. Hi boys, I started
- 21:09Speaker 2: to listen to all the episodes from the start after
- 21:12Speaker 2: hearing one of the new episodes first. I'm now up
- 21:14Speaker 2: to episode seventy six, still got years worth before I
- 21:20Speaker 2: catch up. Thank you boys, no, thanks for finding it.
- 21:24Speaker 2: We appreciate it. Tell your friends.
- 21:26Speaker 1: Fred until next time, aut of.
- 21:28Speaker 5: Wir, aut Ofvoir and Daffy desain and goodbye.
- 21:34Speaker 2: Yes, and as we say in this country, see you later.
- 21:39Speaker 2: Yeah mate, all right, see you Fred Frick what's an
- 21:43Speaker 2: astronomer at large? And thanks to Hue in the studio
- 21:45Speaker 2: for sending us all those last second questions live and
- 21:49Speaker 2: in person.
- 21:49Speaker 1: Well no he's not here.
- 21:51Speaker 2: Actually never seen the guy, and from me Andrew Dunkley,
- 21:54Speaker 2: thank you again for joining us, Thanks for sending in questions,
- 21:57Speaker 2: and don't forget to go to our website so you
- 21:59Speaker 2: can send more space nuts dot io. Until next time,
- 22:04Speaker 2: take care and we'll see you real soon on another
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