Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / John Dorsey | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #44 |

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John Dorsey | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #44 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
• 0:03
  podcast. Today's guest goes, by the name,
• 0:06
  John Dorsey. He has many many different
• 0:10
  things that he goes under on his resume.
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  So I'm just going to list them off right now.
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  He's a props Master, a podcaster Comic Book, Creator art
• 0:19
  director, and a freelance artist, all the way from
• 0:22
  Washington. D.c. hello and welcome to the
• 0:25
  show. How you doing?
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  I'm doing pretty good. And that also, Sounds like a lot
• 0:31
  more interesting than I actually am.
• 0:32
  So thank you. It's always this perception
• 0:36
  isn't. It's always the way the way you
• 0:37
  look at things. Like the funny thing is when
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  because I obviously found you through read it.
• 0:42
  And I always say to people like you know, if you're doing a
• 0:44
  podcast absolutely go on there, it's amazing.
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  The interest in different types of people, you can find on there
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  and I the thing that was interesting to me is you left a
• 0:54
  link to your, I am DV and you're like, obviously like, you know,
• 0:57
  people are going to be interested in, you know?
• 1:00
  The movies I've worked on so on and so forth.
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  I got that. But then when I started just
• 1:04
  researching you in general, I was like this guy does loads a
• 1:07
  shit. This is not just not just the,
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  the film side of things but there's like a lot of other
• 1:11
  areas that you're involved in which Pete, loads of people
• 1:14
  would find interesting. Social perception, really?
• 1:16
  I think, Sure. But, you know, it's that thing
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  of, like, Jack of all trades, master of none, you know, and
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  I'm supposed to like, what do you do?
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  Well, I make money by working at movies but then I make comic
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  books and nobody reads. And I've started this Audio
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  Drama like, wait, where are you going?
• 1:34
  Stop running away. I get what you mean, I get what
• 1:38
  you mean so I would presume then that your work in the film
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  industry. Then is more like your day, sort
• 1:45
  of job and then the stuff for the comics.
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  Everything is really what you're trying to push behind.
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  Is it, would I be right in saying that or yeah II?
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  You know, I originally went to school for comic books, there's
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  a really good program at the Savannah College of Art and
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  Design and I originally I went did that and they make you kind
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  of go through like Fine Arts first and that as a part of the
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  comic program, there was a screenwriting Graham was like
• 2:17
  wow this is great. And on top of that for those for
• 2:22
  anybody who doesn't draw comic books it is the is mind-numbing
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  to a certain degree. Like the the amount of reward
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  based on work, like the work to, to reward ratio of making Comics
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  is until you get like, any cloud is insane, like it's especially,
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  if you're doing kind of, like, louder pieces, like you're just
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  sitting at a desk. Drawing for like 12 hours a day.
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  You know, eight to 12 hours, you're like great, I finished a
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  page, 22 more. So that's like a month of your
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  life and I fell into the film program and other kids that I've
• 3:03
  been more involved and you know, had may be done film programs
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  during high school and everything like that.
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  So I kind of was hamstrung at the beginning.
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  So people asked what I was good at was like, well I can drive
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  it, you can be an art director and it's like cool.
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  Well, that sounds important because you had the information
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  I have here. Is that you originally studied a
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  sequential arts degree. Is that right?
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  Yeah. So sequential art is a very
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  high, falutin way of saying comic book the hungry.
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  So gross, I get it. Yeah, well, but well worth your
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  time looking into there was a man called will Eisner and
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  there's actually a very famous comic book award that is named
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  for him. Him but he he's the one who
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  coined the term graphic novel. Um he also I believe he's the
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  one who coined the term grab or sequential art.
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  And he was very influential on kind of like pushing Comics more
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  towards you know fine art as opposed to pop art, which is
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  really what they really began as.
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  Which are you kind of love about the art form because you know, a
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  majority of what's out there, starts as like Is a fine art
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  form and then will become popular.
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  But fights with his fists, you know, former reporter kind of
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  guy, but his graphic novels about just being Jewish in New
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  York, there's one called a contract with God.
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  That's very worth your time to read especially if you're
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  interested in graphic novels and kind of like getting to where
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  the heart of all those things are.
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  But it's a long way to say. Like, I, you know, I went to
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  school for comics and it's like, wow, yeah, that's not what I'm
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  doing for a living. And I'm just like film, let's
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  give this a try. And, you know, graduated and
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  realized that a film degree, which is, you know, it's not
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  really nobody seeking people with film degrees.
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  So I was like, I have to work in the industry or I've just pissed
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  away for years of my life so I get what you mean, early.
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  I know a lot of people when I was at Uni that You know, like
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  say history degrees and they ended up doing like marketing
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  for a living. And I was always a bit puzzled
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  by that, but I understood it because sort of the realm of the
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  history world is quite limited, as far as careers are concerned
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  unless you're going, suppose directly down the academic
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  route. But even then, that's a whole
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  other thing entirely. Like I learned about that when I
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  was, when I was at Uni and I was just like, wow.
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  Okay. It's very few options here.
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  Yeah, no one. Tells you that you go especially
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  at art school. They're like, no, you're going
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  to be famous, it's going to be great.
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  And then you get out and you're like, Hello!
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  I would, I would like to be the next Steven Spielberg and then
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  they're like, are you, do you have any Talent, or have you
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  made anything at all or like, of course not.
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  I'm 22. I've done nothing.
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  They're like, well, no. You got to figure out something
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  else to do with your life. So before you went to
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  University, like when did you start sort of writing and
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  designing comic books? Like when did you get into that?
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  And what inspired you to do that?
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  Since I was a kid. It's just I've always liked
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  them. I am very much a like a Hands-On
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  learner and actually Comics helped me.
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  Learn how to read like my kind of like entryway and do.
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  You know, and say like, fine writing was through Comics
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  because, you know, as a kid as x man and Batman and all that.
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  But then when I was in high school, you know, I had English
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  teachers who introduced me to Alan Moore and in his work and
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  then researching more about Alan Moore and kind of wanting to
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  read what he was reading and to what inspired him.
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  But, you know, I just, I've always loved them.
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  You know, I've plenty of comics I made as a kid that are You
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  know, terrible kids stuff, but I know my mom has them all in a
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  box somewhere and it's always been kind of like a lifelong
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  passion for me. And so like I suppose over over
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  those years, what some of the key things you've learned as far
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  as the development of comic books is concerned.
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  So it's an interesting Community because you're in the UK, we're
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  actually from the UK. Yeah.
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  Alright. I hope her back.
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  Hi sorry. Yeah, I know I don't think this
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  is the second time. Now I've lost you these guys are
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  right. So I you know, I graduated
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  school, I went into the film industry and kind of immediately
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  went into commercials and independent film both which Our
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  can be rewarding, but are a ton of work and kind of once I was
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  able to get a foothold, and I wasn't working all the time.
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  I wanted to return to making Comics.
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  So I've always kind of liked anchored around.
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  I tried to, you know, I made a full-length comic, you know,
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  that's not very good and I can talk about that, but then I've
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  always been trying to, like, experiment with things Just
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  because there's a lot of do-it-yourself saying or DIY and
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  one of the things that was interesting to learn because I
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  never finished my, my Comics degree.
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  So I didn't get kind of the background that other people
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  did, but there's a lot of like, small festivals in the United
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  States that focus on comics. And there's this very cool
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  independent world that you would never learn that amount if
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  you're reading like typical nerd blogs.
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  There's this Cecil called the small print.
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  The small print Exposition. It's SPX Spa in small print Expo
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  and it's just, it's basically like, you know, I call it like,
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  sun dance for comic books and I started going to that and, you
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  know, there's a lot, you know, the amount of talent that's out
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  in the world that you just never know about.
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  So yeah, I had to you talkin about the sort of comic expose
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  in America, the the small print ones.
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  Well, I am so in general, there's independent comic
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  festivals the same way that there's independent film
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  festivals. So, I started doing work like
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  that and trying to get tables there and, you know, just like
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  any kind of Arts Community. There's folks who are well known
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  within those circles. It was actually doing this.
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  This one of the things that kind of allowed me or gave me a
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  connection with my wife because my wife is Sir.
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  Cartoonist, cool. Yeah.
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  And There's just a really neat Community out there and while
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  I'm not especially in it because I'm in the middle of producing
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  an audio drama at the moment, okay, I've just always yeah I
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  just I can't not work. I know that feeling.
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  Yeah. I have to have some sort of
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  artistic, mmm Outlet or I feel like I'm gonna go insane.
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  It's like an addiction, isn't it?
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  I have the exact same same thing and sometimes I worry about That
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  feeling like, is this addictive, is this healthy, but I think
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  that sometimes for some people in life it's like yeah work can
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  be both a driving force in your life and a source of like
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  passion. And a thing that you can kind of
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  put everything into like your positive energy even negative
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  energy. Sometimes I think it's like a
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  good therapeutic way of managing that rather than so taking it
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  out on someone or you know, maybe dealing with things.
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  He's in the wrong way. Like I completely can relate to
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  you on that one. Yeah, it I guess the main worry
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  is like, am I crazy person? I just tinkering in the basement
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  all the time. Probably this is how this is
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  almost horror film stuff you know no one's getting hurt.
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  This is fine this is a good Minds me that Meme with a dog in
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  the you know the fiery house. These like this is fine.
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  This is yeah. That's It's generally been the
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  feeling of this year, that's for sure.
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  It's crazy times, crazy times. We're speaking of which
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  actually, how has that sort of affected your life?
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  Like, with covid-19, obviously it's affected all of us, but I
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  always sort of ask my guests, this right now because everyone
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  has a very different way that they've dealt with it.
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  Some people, it's affected the massively, some not like how it
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  affected, you pretty well, I'm a homebody.
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  So my life didn't change that much because I kind of like two
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  modes of just like I'm gonna work in a cave for months and
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  then I'll merge tonight. Alright, everybody pay attention
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  to me now, but it's been a bummer because, you know, we've
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  had like annual parties every year that throughout the year
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  and we haven't been able to do that, but it's been nice to
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  spend a lot of time at home with my wife where we just got
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  married last year. So congrats thank you and
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  Originally I was going to be on a TV show at the beginning of
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  the year and when covid head, you know, we're all kind of
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  like, all right, this will be like two months.
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  We'll be back and right now the film industry just shut down.
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  So that was the bummer. I've done jobs since then and
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  you know, you gotta do the full mask.
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  I covers face shield, you know full Spaceman all day which
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  isn't great but it's better than getting covid.
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  So you know it's it has change things but a lot with the amount
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  of free time that I've had this year me and my writing partner
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  Max, we were able to fully make This Audio Drama, we've been
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  kind of like talking about and had on the back burner and since
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  we realized like well our schedules just opened up we were
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  able to finish it, get everybody cast.
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  We fully recorded the entire thing and now we've started
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  releasing. So I mean what's the name of
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  your Audio Drama? What's it about?
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  So it's called superhuman public radio or spr, you know?
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  Super and it's the way I describe it to people as its
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  it's MPR meets the Marvel Universe.
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  It's just it's what would public radio sound like if superheroes
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  are real. So cool.
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  It's when you listen to it like you get the news which tells you
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  about like the state of the world.
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  Where, you know, our first episode, they are kind of like,
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  you know, Superman figure Cosmos has been arrested by ice because
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  he is an illegal alien. Again, and that's, that's
• 14:07
  something that is like, has like National Security implications
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  because now he's in jail and kind of everyone's reacting to
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  that. But you know, I don't know how
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  much American radio listen to but, you know, there's a program
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  called This American Life and we have a parody of that called
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  these American supers and in the pilot, you know, it's it's this
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  parody of This American Life in the episode is about Freelance
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  henchmen working in the gig economy.
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  So like henchmen are now being hired via apps and like how has
• 14:43
  this changed their lives and you know, it's it's funny.
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  It's sometimes dramatic and it's, you know, I just, I love,
• 14:52
  I love Comics. I love how ridiculous they are.
• 14:55
  I love how silly they are. But as I get older, I kind of,
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  you know, I become less worried about like, Spider-Man, saving
• 15:03
  the city, I'm like more worried about our Han Is he in Mary Jane
• 15:06
  or Kaylee and they gave me get divorced, like, how does he make
• 15:09
  money? You know, that's like what
• 15:11
  interests me so We're able to kind of tell the stories in
• 15:16
  between, you know, I like to say it's like the stories of
• 15:19
  followed between the panels because it's not you know, it's
• 15:22
  not about the powers, it's not about this.
• 15:23
  It's just like what would they be like as people you know,
• 15:28
  we've got I mean, there's something we have 12 episodes
• 15:33
  and there's two segments that are unique to each.
• 15:36
  So we have like all these varied stories, you know, ranging from
• 15:41
  like the story about, you know, it's like who designs secret
• 15:45
  entrances? Like who is that person like
• 15:47
  interviews with that that folk, you know, that that guy and
• 15:51
  another which is You know, if you ever listen to Car Talk,
• 15:55
  we've got this thing called the utility belt and it's a boy
• 15:58
  genius and and I'd former henchmen helping superheroes
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  like fix their gear and like it always goes wrong.
• 16:05
  It's tragic and always blows up in their face but we've put a
• 16:10
  lot of work into it. Like if you go to our website
• 16:13
  it's entirely presented is in universe.
• 16:16
  So it's like winking at you. That way the Twitter accounts,
• 16:21
  they're like the Rival. New station is VLAN, which is
• 16:24
  the villainous News Network or illness League Network and the
• 16:29
  tweet at each other and like harass each other.
• 16:32
  So we've been trying to like create this world so that if you
• 16:37
  want to kind of escape from hours for, you know, 20 minutes
• 16:39
  a week, it's that you can. It's, it's been very rewarding.
• 16:45
  It's like a TV show. Appears.
• 16:47
  So how long has it taken you to put?
• 16:49
  It has put us all together and took us through the process of
• 16:52
  creating it. it's, you know, it's like any project you have
• 16:57
  to conceptualize it first and My partner Max is he is definitely
• 17:03
  a details kind of character guy while I really love the
• 17:07
  structure of story. So you know it was a lot of.
• 17:11
  Okay, how do we want this to sound?
• 17:13
  What's this, what our Inspirations and then it's kind
• 17:16
  of like building, you know, you build a Bedrock of okay what is
• 17:20
  this thing? And then we approach.
• 17:23
  Okay, so here's the frame, this is how the show is going to
• 17:25
  sound weird ideas for all the types of programs that would be
• 17:30
  on it. Obviously we're having the news
• 17:31
  or you have something that sounds like this American life.
• 17:34
  We wanted something that sounded like fresh air if you know what
• 17:37
  that is. And, you know, starting to kind
• 17:40
  of populate the characters and then think about like, what are
• 17:42
  those stories like mine? One of my favorite stories to
• 17:45
  write in the first season is about a superhero who is faked
• 17:48
  his own death, but then when he comes back to sort of be like,
• 17:52
  hey, I'm still alive. He finds out the entire town
• 17:54
  actually hated his guts so and and a lot of her stories kind of
• 18:02
  started in that way. Like Max wrote a story about
• 18:08
  Someone who is rescued and there was a photo taken of this man,
• 18:12
  and it became like a meme and like what would that happen?
• 18:15
  You know, what would that do to someone's life?
• 18:17
  And but will you mean just like how?
• 18:19
  How would becoming a meme? Change some?
• 18:21
  Yeah. And change this person's life,
• 18:23
  especially when you're like, famous for being rescued and,
• 18:27
  you know, obviously with this, like Cosmos storyline, we did a
• 18:30
  lot of research into, you know, immigration law, United States.
• 18:34
  Because at least earlier when we were writing, this is like, wow,
• 18:37
  it seems. Like the deportation of
• 18:40
  Americans is really going to be a huge story.
• 18:43
  Obviously like you know, the American News Cycles, just a bag
• 18:48
  of trash on fire rolling down a hill.
• 18:49
  At this point either. There's no way you can predict
• 18:51
  what's going to happen. But I think for the rest of us
• 18:56
  from the outside world looking in America does seem to have the
• 19:00
  kind of most outlandish. And I think that's because it's
• 19:04
  like, you know, cuz it's a one whole continent and every state
• 19:08
  is so Different and didn't know mean like one might be more
• 19:11
  relaxed one might be crazier but like oh yeah it's just so much
• 19:14
  going on at all times of the day.
• 19:16
  And it's, you know, like it since Florida is a good example
• 19:20
  of that is always something crazy going on in Florida.
• 19:22
  Absolutely, I'm, you know, Florida is like the wild west
• 19:27
  but with, you know, with like bathing suits, it's ridiculous.
• 19:32
  But, you know, America's it's 50 countries that are supposedly on
• 19:36
  the same page. But if you ask me I live in DC
• 19:39
  but where are the DC area? And if you're like, what's your
• 19:41
  opinion about people from Maryland?
• 19:43
  I was like, yeah, I think that's a very common thing country to
• 19:49
  Country though. Like we have a similar thing in
• 19:51
  the UK, like, you know, the North and the South divided or
• 19:55
  like you said being from certain places like a lot of it has more
• 19:58
  to do with sports and teams and stuff.
• 20:00
  Which I know you guys have as well, but that always sent seems
• 20:04
  to be like the underlying Factor but yeah, I don't know.
• 20:07
  It's like it. There.
• 20:08
  And it isn't there. It's very strange. yeah, and You
• 20:14
  know, get back in ABS in it in kind of a was talking about with
• 20:18
  building the show up. It's just kind of one of the
• 20:22
  reasons why we took on this project is both me and Max want
• 20:25
  to write for TV. He also wants to direct, I don't
• 20:29
  have the attention span for that.
• 20:30
  So and it was figuring out, okay, how, how to plot the story
• 20:38
  kind of like, throughout the season?
• 20:39
  And make sure it was engaging who appears where and it was
• 20:44
  interesting because we wrote the entire thing or able to go back
• 20:48
  because typically Yeah, like tv shows will they'll have a loose
• 20:54
  outline of the whole season will start writing episodes but then
• 20:56
  they'll start writing, they'll start the production.
• 20:58
  So, you know, they're racing to finish the season while this
• 21:03
  like moving train that will not stop.
• 21:06
  Yes. Chasing after them.
• 21:08
  So, we made a very conscious decision.
• 21:11
  Like, all right, we're going to write everything.
• 21:13
  We were able to grab a lot of actors and do read through.
• 21:17
  So we could kind of figure out like this story.
• 21:19
  Is terrible. We have to rewrite it or, you
• 21:22
  know, this one's working really well, or maybe pairs better
• 21:25
  here, and since we were able to record or to write everything,
• 21:30
  then we were able to kind of, you know, go back, tanker, make
• 21:35
  it what we wanted it to be, and then we were able to just record
• 21:39
  everyone at once. So we spent two weeks recording
• 21:43
  people, remotely, kind of exactly a way like we're doing
• 21:46
  right now. This is what we did.
• 21:49
  He directed People over zoom and they recording natively.
• 21:52
  They sent it to us. So, we were able to keep
• 21:54
  everybody safe in the time of covid.
• 21:57
  And it was interesting because we were able to work with actors
• 22:00
  across the United States. Like, I don't know how many
• 22:03
  audio dramas you listen to, but usually they'll have like a cast
• 22:05
  of like 12 people who have very plastic voices.
• 22:10
  And we have a lot of incredibly talented actors on the show but
• 22:13
  we have a cast of 50 playing a hundred characters.
• 22:17
  So, it's actually like You know, the scale of it is very big.
• 22:23
  He's got, you know, I've got like on my wall over here and
• 22:27
  obviously The Listener can't hear but this is the plot of the
• 22:30
  first season. When I lay down on cards, I love
• 22:33
  how organized it is. That makes me very happy, you
• 22:38
  know, Max in his office. You'll see there's a mapping the
• 22:41
  United States that has pans of where our stories are to make
• 22:44
  sure that it's like kind of spread out.
• 22:46
  And once we were able to do that like You've got like our theme
• 22:52
  music was originally composed by Rock Lee, who's a local DC
• 22:56
  composer. We got really great themes for
• 23:00
  two of our other shows from a musician named Stephen Mooney
• 23:03
  has and North Carolina, you know, without covid, I don't
• 23:08
  know if we were going to be able to kind of collect all of this
• 23:12
  talent. And one place is easily we did,
• 23:15
  which is a blessing in disguise. Obviously if Have a choice.
• 23:20
  Covered never happen. This is terrible.
• 23:22
  I hate it. But, you know, I can't victories
• 23:25
  where you can do what you mean. It's been the same for me.
• 23:28
  I've been sort of unemployed this this whole time and it's
• 23:33
  given me so much time to work on this, you know, even the idea of
• 23:38
  even doing a podcast, let's say eight eight months ago was just
• 23:43
  not, not impossible, but just unlikely.
• 23:46
  Whereas I've been able to do it and I feel like a lot, I do that
• 23:50
  a lot funnily enough to covid. And when what it's done to
• 23:53
  society, obviously, you know, we all want it to end, we don't
• 23:56
  want it to continue. I get that, but like you like
• 23:59
  you were sort of implying there, you know, you got to make the
• 24:01
  best of a bad situation and work around these things and it's
• 24:06
  really good. I think, you know, with things
• 24:09
  like the film industry and like what you guys are doing in the
• 24:12
  Audio Drama industry as well that like they're still.
• 24:16
  Efforts, you know, to continue these things to work around.
• 24:20
  These restraints that we may or may not have and it was
• 24:24
  interesting as well. How it differs between our
• 24:27
  countries because in the UK I believe we do have Productions
• 24:33
  going on for films and TV shows. But as far as like, Most things
• 24:39
  going on, you know, for instance, you know, any kind of
• 24:43
  events are completely off. That's not happening.
• 24:47
  Most things are shut down. We have like a tier system thing
• 24:51
  going on here. But point is a lot of things I
• 24:55
  just cut off completely, and there's like, no access to all
• 24:59
  attempts to kind of get that stuff moving.
• 25:01
  So I do kind of look at America with kind of or in terms of how
• 25:05
  certain things are being trialed and That they're like, you know,
• 25:09
  you have like some events that are going ahead but with a
• 25:12
  smaller percentage capacity and stuff and as you sort of rightly
• 25:16
  said you know you have movie sets going on where people were
• 25:20
  doing and and have finished in time for Junctions.
• 25:24
  Be completely safely, which is impressive, you know.
• 25:28
  So it's interesting but as yet one of the questions I wanted to
• 25:32
  ask you with regards to state by States and this relates back to
• 25:36
  the stuff on the comic books. Does it differ a lot state by
• 25:41
  state as far as I suppose, like popularity and accessibility?
• 25:45
  Like how does it differ in different parts of America with
• 25:49
  with the sort of a comic book crazy because in the UK, we do
• 25:52
  have a big comic book following. Obviously it's not anywhere the
• 25:57
  size of America but I think the most common things that we have
• 26:01
  are like you know at Comic Con in say London or something like
• 26:05
  that. But other than that, it's still
• 26:08
  A niche here. I suppose.
• 26:11
  Well, you know, I think one of the things we've learned, you
• 26:15
  know, especially in the internet age.
• 26:17
  Yeah. Because if you read about like
• 26:18
  the first comic con, you know, you could walk right up to Jack
• 26:23
  Kirby, like he was just standing behind like a fold-up out table
• 26:26
  and I think is like a 70s and people were just selling Comics,
• 26:29
  like, nobody knew Mmm. Yeah.
• 26:31
  Because America is very, yeah, we're comment.
• 26:35
  If we can sell, it will sell it. That's just the fact about
• 26:37
  America, you know, you, I don't know.
• 26:41
  It's the same over there but like you can get paid to donate
• 26:43
  blood here like getting paid. Donate your hair, your eyeballs,
• 26:48
  whatever. Everything's for sale in America
• 26:50
  and because you're kind of encouraged to be into something
• 26:57
  and like be individual, you know, there are fans everywhere
• 27:00
  and maybe say like yeah, you like Comics, I don't think they
• 27:07
  are popular more popular in certain areas.
• 27:09
  There are definitely home As for it because you know ten years
• 27:13
  ago you had Comic-Con in San Francisco and New York, and
• 27:17
  maybe like smaller conventions, other places.
• 27:19
  But now there are conventions like everywhere.
• 27:21
  Yeah, which is really cool. And I think there are definitely
• 27:26
  pockets of more Like places that have larger our communities,
• 27:33
  which tend to be around colleges, will have their own
• 27:36
  festivals, which will have their own, you know, kind of like
• 27:39
  Hometown artists and there will be like little flavors here and
• 27:43
  there, I have a piece on the wall by an artist named been
• 27:48
  passed more, who is kind of well-known The Independent
• 27:52
  Community and I believe, you know.
• 27:54
  Yeah, I actually went to school with him.
• 27:56
  I never met him, but he was at risk at the same time and now
• 27:58
  he's He does sort of, like, sa comics about protesting and
• 28:04
  being black in America that are very good and I know that he was
• 28:08
  in Philly. So, you know that scene he was a
• 28:13
  little bit more around like there's definitely somewhat of a
• 28:16
  protester seen their, I don't know.
• 28:17
  It's the thing is that they're just Pockets everywhere.
• 28:21
  Then that's what, that's what I love about Comics, especially
• 28:25
  with the Independent Community, and people being able to print
• 28:28
  there. Get their work printed like
• 28:32
  there's a missing your name, it's Liz Suburbia.
• 28:36
  She wrote a comic about Alexandria which is like 10
• 28:41
  minutes away from me. That is just about like teens
• 28:45
  there and it's kind of great because it's this like microcosm
• 28:48
  window into what that world was like for her growing up and you
• 28:54
  know kind of very similar to my teenage years I don't know, it's
• 29:01
  just their fans everywhere. Everybody is a fan of
• 29:03
  everything. Yeah, it's interesting.
• 29:05
  You say that because obviously, you know, when I was growing up
• 29:08
  at school, it was especially in the UK.
• 29:10
  I mean, I was always part of just in general the alternative
• 29:13
  crowd. So I would look at like, what
• 29:15
  was popular in the mainstream and always, just kind of be a
• 29:18
  bit like, disappointed, as, you know.
• 29:20
  So, but I was naturally into everything like anything, nerdy
• 29:24
  geeky, I love that. You know, I always thought it
• 29:26
  was really powerful, like I used to look at, yeah, the stories.
• 29:30
  Spider-Man and Batman. And always Bisbee, I was never
• 29:33
  really that bothered about the powers and stuff.
• 29:35
  I was always more interested in the story and like what you were
• 29:39
  saying before about the sort of the interesting kind of
• 29:42
  backstory to characters like, yeah, you know, what's going on
• 29:45
  with Spider-Man and Mary, Jane how the hell does he, you know,
• 29:48
  keep his gig as Spider-Man when, you know, and I think that in
• 29:53
  the beginning movies, you know, when they first started doing
• 29:55
  this in the early 2000s, they did a pretty good job.
• 29:57
  So it's amazing to see where we've Sort of come from in that
• 30:01
  period to right now and I guess my next question for you is like
• 30:07
  what do you make of this whole, you know, Marvel Cinematic
• 30:10
  Universe and the DC Universe now and, and how, like it's become
• 30:15
  sort of a mainstream thing because everyone seems to be
• 30:18
  into it now. And it's not so much a niche
• 30:22
  thing anymore. It's part of like General
• 30:24
  popular culture in. I think it's great, you know,
• 30:29
  because I no longer feel Weird. But um, you know, I was just
• 30:34
  talking to somebody about this and especially somebody was like
• 30:38
  he's our superhero movies, like ever going to end and sort of
• 30:41
  like, you know, if you'd ask that this question like 1940,
• 30:46
  you know, it'd be like, God is the Westerner ever going to end
• 30:49
  or like in the 50s and the 60s because like we were lousy with
• 30:52
  westerns they were everywhere, there was the John Ford westerns
• 30:56
  and then you know, we get into the 70s and get all the
• 30:59
  spaghetti. Sterns that are being cranked
• 31:01
  out and played in grindhouse movies.
• 31:04
  And, you know, that that went away and they kind of now,
• 31:08
  westerns are something, you know, you've revisionist
• 31:12
  westerns. And you know, you have even,
• 31:15
  like, I guess they would be called, like, Neo westerns that
• 31:18
  are taking place in the modern day.
• 31:21
  And when you think about, you know, superhero movies and
• 31:24
  what's going on with that, like, even, you know, obviously like
• 31:27
  Marvel is, you know, they're printing money.
• 31:30
  Are making fun dumb movies that are great.
• 31:33
  I mean I love them and but if you think about like with black
• 31:37
  panther where, if you maybe look at, you know, the first Captain
• 31:42
  America movie. It's just like, yeah.
• 31:43
  This guy's fighting Nazis. Not to suck man.
• 31:46
  But then in Black Panther it had a lot about, you know, the black
• 31:51
  experience. And yet and kill Monger, who has
• 31:56
  a lot of his background like on screen being very influenced of
• 32:00
  just like the black experience in America, it wasn't the
• 32:04
  deepest movie in the world, but at the same time like it had
• 32:07
  something to say and I think you're going to see, you know,
• 32:11
  maybe not out of like Disney or the DC Universe, but you might
• 32:15
  start to see other comic book movies that kind of have a
• 32:20
  little bit more to them because, you know, maybe like the
• 32:24
  original Noir film Like there's tons.
• 32:27
  Like you only hear about Chinatown, you only hear about,
• 32:31
  you know the high watermarks and maybe in 20 years like we're
• 32:35
  going to go back to you know think about Chris Nolan's movies
• 32:39
  which are very you know he made the first Batman made Batman
• 32:43
  Begins which is Matt's a superhero movie and then Dark
• 32:47
  Knight comes out which is basically America freaking out
• 32:51
  that 9/11 happened like that movie does not exist without
• 32:54
  911. And it was very much a response
• 32:57
  to that. So you know, you'll start to see
• 33:00
  superhero movies. Move beyond the cape and be
• 33:04
  about, you know, culture a little bit more and have
• 33:10
  something to say. And you know because every every
• 33:13
  everything needs to go through its teenage years and get the
• 33:15
  Jitters out before it kind of grows up.
• 33:17
  I you know the writer that I you know, even Comics today like
• 33:22
  they they're only getting better.
• 33:25
  And the work is becoming more interesting because it's No
• 33:31
  longer seen as just for kids, Rand like, that was the original
• 33:36
  Alliance for comics and you know, every once in a while
• 33:40
  something a little bit more mature would come out but I you
• 33:42
  know I'm a huge fan of this. This writer called Tom Kang who
• 33:46
  wrote Batman for a really long time but he did a comic book
• 33:51
  about vision from Marvel about you know Vision creates a family
• 33:56
  and it's just sort of him trying to live this Suburban existence
• 34:00
  like you told me Eight doubt that is can't be like get away
• 34:04
  from me. Who are you?
• 34:05
  Like I don't want to worry about Vision in the suburbs like when
• 34:07
  something explode and like now I'm like wow this is great.
• 34:11
  Yeah, I relate to this, I live in the suburbs. you know, it's
• 34:19
  It's a part of the culture now. It's eventually not going to be
• 34:23
  but I can only see good coming out of it.
• 34:26
  Like, it seems like it's everywhere.
• 34:27
  But God, I mean, if you look like there's so much other art
• 34:31
  being made, it's just hard to see beyond what's in popular
• 34:35
  culture right now. But I was on another podcast
• 34:39
  talking with a guy you know about the film industry and he
• 34:43
  was tying as you know he brought up something similar like but
• 34:47
  then he brought up, he's like, but I really love Chernobyl and
• 34:50
  like We're living in a time where maybe Chernobyl would have
• 34:54
  been made as a movie, but now it's being made as a TV show and
• 34:57
  like, we can sit with those characters and learn about the
• 35:00
  more and like the filmmaking and TV is as good or better than
• 35:04
  some movies now. So give you a very long answer
• 35:09
  to that. If you want to edit that all
• 35:11
  down or another, those great, it has a little bit of stuff there.
• 35:15
  I agree with, I think is a very positive thing for those movies
• 35:21
  too. Have a comment on modern
• 35:22
  society, you know, I've spoken with other guests on the podcast
• 35:26
  about how it's good to have like representation.
• 35:29
  You know, you want to try to be reflecting society as it is
• 35:33
  through your movies as much as you can, you know?
• 35:35
  I mean it make it as relatable as possible, so I definitely
• 35:38
  agree with you on that. One thing I did want to just go
• 35:42
  back to was what you were kind of saying about how you know
• 35:47
  that like there was an abundance of like Western movies.
• 35:51
  And how that kind of eventually died.
• 35:53
  And like, that's a very usual thing to happen, you know, once
• 35:57
  you've sort of done as much as you can with something you move
• 36:00
  on, I completely understand that.
• 36:02
  But it's interesting that your kind of implying there, that
• 36:04
  might happen with superhero movies.
• 36:06
  Like when do you, or do you think that's that?
• 36:09
  That's something that's going to happen soon.
• 36:11
  Or do you think we've got a bit of length to that or, you know,
• 36:15
  the craze last I guess is my question as long as they're fun
• 36:20
  and Trying to predict culture. As just I think it's you'll
• 36:26
  never get it right, right? Like Yeah, if you told me again,
• 36:31
  as a kid that they were going to make 30 Avengers movies that are
• 36:35
  just just going to culminate in like to ones where they just
• 36:38
  close off all these storylines. I mean, like you're crazy.
• 36:42
  They there's no way they're going to do that and they have
• 36:45
  and, you know, I it's I don't know, maybe, maybe the detective
• 36:53
  movie comes back, it's hard out. I mean, it's hard to know.
• 36:59
  I think. What you're going to see and
• 37:01
  this is just based off of reading trades so especially
• 37:04
  with covid. Obviously everything is in
• 37:08
  streaming. So as a filmy person, a lot of
• 37:11
  my employers have been streaming services and you know like like
• 37:18
  TV channels like HBO or Showtime, you know I will at my
• 37:21
  last big job was the good Lord bird which is this you know like
• 37:27
  Western ish. TV show about the American
• 37:30
  figure, John Brown and before that was on House of Cards, but
• 37:35
  all the people that I worked with, you know, they cut their
• 37:39
  teeth on teeth on movies and movies or kind of they can be
• 37:42
  shot in different areas. But certainly, when I talk about
• 37:45
  my peers, a lot of us are working on streaming shows
• 37:49
  because one it holds an audience longer into kind of everybody's
• 37:56
  moving towards streaming, movies aren't going to go away, but
• 37:59
  It's just people like long-form storytelling.
• 38:02
  Hmm. And if I had to guess, what's
• 38:04
  going to happen with sort of like superhero things, you know,
• 38:09
  it's probably going to move towards TV because you, because
• 38:15
  the technology is just only getting better and better.
• 38:17
  Yeah, you used to only be able to do this kind of spectacle
• 38:22
  with movie technology, which really is to say with movie
• 38:26
  money, but, you know, with each Each passing year it's getting
• 38:31
  smaller and smaller. So yeah.
• 38:34
  Like they're doing you know Marvel's going to do cats or the
• 38:38
  Winter Soldier Falcon will Winter Soldier.
• 38:40
  They're doing the Wanda Vision show, you're giving Miss Marvel
• 38:43
  right now. They announced that they're
• 38:46
  focusing on Disney plus because it's not so safe, you know.
• 38:50
  We you're never getting rid of computers.
• 38:53
  Yep. You don't have to go anywhere
• 38:55
  for that, so I don't know. It's I would like to see.
• 39:04
  Not grittier things. I think gritty is boring.
• 39:07
  I just want to see things that tackle more.
• 39:12
  Mature things, which is such a silly.
• 39:15
  I don't know. It's no, no, I got get what you
• 39:17
  say, more adult. You know that I can relate to
• 39:20
  like, I'm, you know, I'm about to have a kid.
• 39:22
  So yeah. Like there's a certain level of
• 39:24
  stuff that I look at now is like bad.
• 39:26
  I don't care about you anymore. You make a very good point.
• 39:29
  I mean, for out this conversation.
• 39:30
  You've kind of said how like it's different when you were
• 39:33
  kids. Yeah, we were until the fire the
• 39:34
  staff and the action and the violence of course and then as
• 39:37
  you get older, you know, it's not that you're not interested
• 39:41
  in that. You become, you start looking at
• 39:45
  life differently and therefore, when you're looking at art and
• 39:48
  the things that you love, you, look at that differently to and
• 39:51
  I suppose it's not as relatable if it doesn't kind of well
• 39:54
  relate to you suppose. Yeah, I could.
• 39:57
  I like I'm the same like, you know, I think like, for example,
• 40:01
  you know, they've done a very good job with Batman over the
• 40:03
  years. There's so many different
• 40:05
  versions of Batman, you've got your gritty ones.
• 40:07
  You can't be silly ones. You know, you're the ones that
• 40:09
  are somewhere in between like, You know, it would be good to
• 40:12
  see other characters in that way because I feel like for certain
• 40:19
  superheroes you know it's like their stories and this is why
• 40:24
  this was my problem with like Superman for example.
• 40:27
  Like I liked what they did with Man of Steel and stuff.
• 40:30
  I thought that was very good. That was more in the right
• 40:32
  direction, but classically, you know, I grew up on the comic
• 40:35
  books and the TV show that the anime TV show and stuff and I
• 40:38
  loved it but I never liked it. Even loved it.
• 40:42
  Like I I just thought like, oh this is okay, but I just didn't
• 40:45
  like the idea of like a character who's just super good
• 40:49
  and never does anything wrong and is never flawed.
• 40:52
  Like, I know he's an alien so he's not strictly speaking like
• 40:55
  a human, but he's grown using Easy growing up with the Human
• 41:00
  family. He's raised with human values.
• 41:02
  Therefore, you would expect him to be flawed as a character and
• 41:05
  like, okay, like with Batman, you know, Batman makes selfish
• 41:09
  decision, sometimes your heel, you know, in some adaptations,
• 41:13
  he, you know, might even kill someone or he would get very
• 41:17
  close. So, you know, I mean like he's
• 41:18
  more of an antihero and I always thought that made sense for the
• 41:22
  character and the character Arc, you know, like just just just
• 41:26
  you know, having a bad childhood and Deciding I'm going to fight
• 41:30
  the good fight and I'm, you know, beat the bad guys.
• 41:33
  I just never bought that, you know, where is it made sense for
• 41:38
  other characters. Like, with Spider-Man?
• 41:42
  It's like he has a personal tragedy which serves as a
• 41:45
  catalyst for him, then pursuing that, you know, I mean, it's
• 41:49
  like he's almost thrust into the adult world.
• 41:53
  It's, I mean, I suppose it's more of a Coming of Age story,
• 41:55
  isn't it? That's what it's supposed to be.
• 41:57
  Oh yeah, taking Ability and becoming an adult and all that
• 42:00
  and but like hit him actually just fighting crime and stuff
• 42:04
  comes from that, you know, I mean I feel like it might have
• 42:08
  been very different story. If for example, like the
• 42:10
  character of Uncle Ben never died as an example for like that
• 42:14
  would kind of It's not that he wouldn't have become same
• 42:18
  character. But, you know, I think that that
• 42:21
  really shapes that, that character Arc is is what I'm
• 42:24
  trying to get to. Like I think the way you tell a
• 42:26
  story and doing different shades of it is interesting like I
• 42:29
  heard that for example with the Marvel Universe they're thinking
• 42:32
  about maybe doing the, is it the dark Captain America?
• 42:37
  The one where he's like, working for the Nazis or something?
• 42:40
  I don't think they'll do movie of that but There were no I
• 42:44
  ain't one of the things that you brought up is just it's purely
• 42:47
  character and that's one of the things that I think that's one
• 42:51
  of the reasons that people are very attracted to, you know,
• 42:55
  both Batman and Spider-Man. Certainly a bad man because, you
• 42:59
  know, he's the kind of guy you kind of would hope to be
• 43:02
  especially as a man, you're like dark and brooding and handsome
• 43:05
  and mysterious but also yeah people and Rich.
• 43:15
  People love a good mystery which is why he's very popular and
• 43:18
  then with Spider-Man, you know, Peter Parker is just a guy and
• 43:23
  that's what I love about him is that like he's not worried that
• 43:26
  green God was going to blow up the city.
• 43:27
  He's worried if he's gonna get amazed medication on time, he's
• 43:31
  been late all week and that's When I've always found
• 43:35
  interesting is because it's really just like you know
• 43:39
  Spider-Man is inherently a drama about just trying to be a guy in
• 43:43
  New York and then so happens. His hobby is being a superhero
• 43:47
  and that's what makes him like infinitely relatable.
• 43:50
  I really love the new movies and kind of like they're like
• 43:53
  they're John Hughes movies but he's also Spider-Man, that's
• 43:56
  awesome. That's great with Superman.
• 44:00
  One of the things that people have forgotten I'm sorry.
• 44:03
  I'm going to go to a huge huge Tangent.
• 44:05
  So love it. I relate a lot to Superman
• 44:08
  because so my mom is Jewish, and my father was Methodist, and one
• 44:14
  of the things that he wanted for, both me and my sisters.
• 44:19
  That instead of being raised within the Jewish faith is, you
• 44:22
  know, you wanted in his own words that he wanted us to
• 44:25
  accept Christ into our hearts. So, you know, I was raised in a
• 44:28
  Methodist, you know, going to Methodist Church but every once
• 44:31
  in a while, my mom and kind of pulled me aside, it's like you
• 44:33
  know, your house of Jewish and I'm just feeling quite and sit.
• 44:36
  And now you're also Jewish, don't worry about it and hey
• 44:39
  he's sitting in his yeah I got something to my sitting in
• 44:42
  church. Like okay.
• 44:43
  So I'm also Jewish does Jesus. They still do not sense.
• 44:48
  Yes. Yes to this.
• 44:50
  Yeah like Jesus still love me and one of the things it's been
• 44:55
  a while since I picked up a Superman book.
• 44:57
  I mean I really love Grant Morrison's.
• 45:00
  Take on the character Grant Morrison's done way too much
• 45:03
  acid in his lifetime. And it really shows in the
• 45:05
  Superman comic you should read All-Star.
• 45:08
  Superman is so weird and Super Man For All Seasons, which is
• 45:12
  like a very which is jeph Loeb and Tim sale.
• 45:15
  Doing this very Norman, Rockwell Stout Superman but the reason
• 45:18
  why Superman is interesting is because he was raised as a
• 45:24
  regular person. Like everybody who says, Clark
• 45:27
  Kent is the mask for Superman is wrong.
• 45:29
  Like he's that's totally wrong Clark.
• 45:32
  Kent is Clark Kent. He's a kid from Kansas.
• 45:35
  That when he was a teenager found out that he had
• 45:36
  superpowers and instead of being told that was wrong or that his
• 45:40
  alien Heritage was bad, is his like you know he had two great
• 45:44
  parents who instilled really great values into them and then
• 45:49
  you know, it's an amount to the world but what I find very
• 45:53
  interesting is that this guy's antagonist, sometimes come from
• 45:57
  Krypton. So and they tend to people like
• 45:59
  Very Old Testament, bad guys, in like, he has to kind of grapple
• 46:04
  with the fact. The like these two identities
• 46:06
  for him. Hmm.
• 46:08
  Because Superman has become like a Christ figure in in popular
• 46:16
  culture like in Man of Steel, there's a straight-up image of
• 46:18
  him looking like he's crucified but that's wrong.
• 46:21
  He's not a Christ figure, he's Moses, you know, he was a child
• 46:26
  sent down a river for a better life.
• 46:29
  Hey, can you really say that? If he's I mean, he's the idea
• 46:33
  being, he's all-powerful almost indestructible.
• 46:35
  I mean, it's in every superheroes all-powerful like
• 46:38
  they're never going to do. But the thing was Superman which
• 46:41
  I think is like, why? There's a lot of criticism about
• 46:43
  him, is this like, he's almost impossible to kill?
• 46:48
  Like was Spider-Man. I mean, you know, like that's
• 46:50
  when you were a kid, you know, you do those things.
• 46:52
  He be like, our would so-and-so beat, so it's gonna fire.
• 46:55
  Yeah. And it's outside a man.
• 46:57
  It's like, I loved Spiderman. I door.
• 46:59
  He's my favorite but like in a lot of these I was under the I'd
• 47:02
  look at it and be like okay well obviously Superman would
• 47:06
  annihilate like 90% of these guys do not remember it's not a
• 47:11
  bit should never be went. If you were going to write
• 47:15
  Superman it's never the it's never going to be.
• 47:17
  Is he gonna die? That should never be the point
• 47:20
  of Superman. The point is someone else is
• 47:22
  going to die. Like that's where the drama
• 47:24
  comes from. And that's where a lot of
• 47:27
  Superman writing kind of goes wrong.
• 47:29
  Is that kind of, kind of becomes this like Dragon Ball Z, you
• 47:32
  know, style power creep thing, but you know, I find was very
• 47:36
  awesome by the way. Yeah, I know, but it's just,
• 47:42
  there's an opportunity to tell the story because, you know,
• 47:46
  Superman is. It's a parable about being
• 47:50
  Jewish in America at the time, it was written, you know, the
• 47:53
  two writers of Superman were Jews from Canada and, you know,
• 47:59
  a lot of the creative Industries in in America.
• 48:04
  You can't you'll throw a rock and hit a joke, but like the
• 48:07
  thing is that there were times that America is not cool, right?
• 48:10
  Yeah, it was, in fact, there's still places in America.
• 48:12
  You would not want to say, you are to this day.
• 48:16
  And, you know, Superman is inherently this story about
• 48:21
  being Jewish in America where you still have to present as a
• 48:26
  gentile. And that's, that's the point
• 48:29
  behind his character, is it you are full of all of this
• 48:33
  potential that you would love to show the world.
• 48:36
  But you might not be accepted for which is why you know he you
• 48:40
  know he's very waspy. Look to him.
• 48:42
  If you look at him in the comics like parted hair.
• 48:45
  He's just yeah. I'm an All-American boy from
• 48:47
  Kansas but like he's Kal-El, he's this other guy, you know,
• 48:52
  even all of them. Like I mean there's so many
• 48:55
  interesting things about the origin of Superman.
• 48:57
  Like jor-el is really close to for Hebrew for freedom from God.
• 49:02
  So there might even be like a kind of secret atheist meaning
• 49:06
  in there. And you know, they've really
• 49:10
  gotten away from that origin because like if you make
• 49:13
  Spider-Man all about saving the city like you lose the heart of
• 49:16
  that character and yeah Superman like he's become that Christ
• 49:19
  figure and not about just somebody trying to be true to
• 49:23
  themselves. And like there's really
• 49:25
  interesting stuff going on today because now he has a son and
• 49:28
  they live in Kansas and like it's more about being a family,
• 49:31
  which I think is great. Mmm, But, you know, you know,
• 49:38
  with comic book movies and medium.
• 49:40
  What's it needs to go back to character because that's the
• 49:44
  most interesting thing, like characters.
• 49:46
  The most powerful thing in storytelling like plot is fun.
• 49:50
  But character is eternal, like we remember Darth character or
• 49:55
  Darth Vader because he's a great character.
• 49:57
  He's a really cool and compelling backstory.
• 50:00
  He's a dark figure. This is an excellent point.
• 50:03
  Look II took The agree with you on this.
• 50:05
  And I feel that like with certain things that are going on
• 50:09
  now, we're losing that and with other things, we're getting a
• 50:12
  lot if you know what I mean. So like, if you take as an
• 50:15
  example, I filled that like they really nailed it with his
• 50:19
  character. In the first movies, the
• 50:23
  original trilogy Sam Raimi trilogy, but with these newer
• 50:26
  ones, it's not that they haven't done character development.
• 50:28
  But like I still feel like we really don't know this
• 50:32
  character. Like I know he's a He's a
• 50:34
  teenager and it's like, you know, coming of age and it's the
• 50:38
  younger version of Spider-Man II get that.
• 50:40
  But we saw that too in The Originals Trilogy as well.
• 50:44
  And oh, maybe it's just because I grew up with it.
• 50:47
  May they could be that factor, you know.
• 50:48
  There's that kind of bias I suppose but I don't know if
• 50:52
  everybody's got their favorite and there is no definitive good
• 50:57
  version of anything anymore, which is kind of great, you
• 51:00
  know. Yeah.
• 51:01
  Like you can have your own flavor.
• 51:04
  Of anything. But you know this is the reason
• 51:08
  why it's going to go to TV because there's time to develop
• 51:10
  character and you can get connected to that character and
• 51:13
  if your Disney you're going to sell stuff for that character
• 51:14
  and make money. So I went to Disney.
• 51:16
  I want to work for Disney. Hell.
• 51:19
  Yeah, I'm down for that. Yeah, I actually agree with you.
• 51:23
  I think everything will eventually just moved to TV.
• 51:26
  I think it's much better that way.
• 51:27
  Anyway, like I'm looking at that Star Wars as an example and I
• 51:32
  purse, I don't understand that. All of the hate about, I think
• 51:35
  that's just people getting a bit too entitled and taking things
• 51:39
  too far. But what I will say is that I
• 51:41
  don't think that, that, that new Trilogy met the expectations
• 51:46
  that everyone had for it. But for some reason, I feel that
• 51:49
  like they've really nailed it with the TV shows.
• 51:52
  They've been doing, you know, like the animated staff and then
• 51:55
  the Mandalorian like I just watched the recent episodes and
• 51:58
  I'm just kind of Blown Away by I supposed to just do the
• 52:02
  character storytelling, to be honest review, and that element
• 52:06
  to it. And I like building on that
• 52:08
  Universe more and kind of showing you the ins and outs of
• 52:12
  it and tying two things in the movies, but not kind of like,
• 52:16
  Overdoing it so to speak. You know, I love I'm a huge Star
• 52:21
  Wars fan. I have a lightsaber, you know,
• 52:23
  my wall over there and one of the things that the new movies
• 52:28
  kind of forgot and like, one of the things that like, Lucas is
• 52:32
  really awesome about is, Lucas is a huge fan of movies and, you
• 52:36
  know, all of his movies were influenced by other movies.
• 52:41
  You know, his original trilogy is basically, it's like,
• 52:45
  Lawrence of Arabia. The Hidden Fortress and you
• 52:49
  know, man with no name and he did that.
• 52:52
  He took Flash Gordon, he put it into a Shaker, he shook it out
• 52:55
  and he threw it on screening of Star Wars.
• 52:57
  And even the newer movies are like, the prequel movies have
• 53:01
  like a little bit under Warren them, which is, you know, kind
• 53:04
  of weird. Like see that though.
• 53:07
  Yeah, the second one is, it almost had a good Blade.
• 53:09
  Runner feel to it in parts and I'll tell ya and he he may he
• 53:14
  also talked about them being like Silent movies, like you can
• 53:17
  mute Star Wars and absolutely, no, what's going on, any given
• 53:20
  point. But the new Star Wars movies
• 53:22
  were influenced by other Star Wars movies, like I enjoy the
• 53:27
  new ones. I think they kind of broke their
• 53:30
  ankles on the last one, but, let's face it making anything.
• 53:34
  They just made them too fast. I think there's a lot of blood
• 53:38
  like everything, even if you don't like something from Star
• 53:42
  Wars and there's always a little blessing that they take.
• 53:46
  Like there's always a gift from one of these stories that they
• 53:50
  take into the future and you know, one of the things they've
• 53:54
  sir, they've really done with, you know, the Mandalorian and
• 53:58
  the animated stuff is they went back to like, the older things
• 54:01
  like the Mandalorian is a western, like, it's absolutely a
• 54:05
  western And it's like one of those episodes is straight up
• 54:11
  the Seven. Samurai like the one I think
• 54:12
  it's like episode 6 where they're on the water planet or
• 54:16
  whatever like yeah that's Seven Samurai.
• 54:18
  It's great. It's fun.
• 54:19
  It's not really complicated. These movies.
• 54:21
  Don't need to be deep. Yeah, like I feel I thought
• 54:24
  that's the biggest problem. Maybe maybe maybe not like they
• 54:28
  were stuff that I I guess the troubling I was saying this to
• 54:33
  someone in a car. The other day that we were just
• 54:35
  traveling somewhere and I said, like, the original trilogy Star
• 54:38
  Wars is Iconic. It's not just iconic Star Wars
• 54:41
  its iconic cinema, right? So the prequels I don't think
• 54:45
  could ever match up to that and the prequels are excellent.
• 54:48
  But they're like, they just don't compare to the original
• 54:50
  trilogy, but as fair enough, it's a matter of taste.
• 54:54
  You know, I mean, we've got so much great things from it like
• 54:56
  memes and stuff these days that it's just awesome with the
• 55:00
  Seeker. I feel that.
• 55:01
  It's like, as you said that they've just lost something, you
• 55:05
  know, in terms of source of inspiration, I felt like it hurt
• 55:11
  them that they had different directors.
• 55:14
  That's not always a bad thing. But I feel like there was way
• 55:16
  too much of a difference between, like, you know, the air
• 55:19
  and then and then it was, it could return of Skywalker.
• 55:24
  The rise of Skywalker, rise of Skywalker.
• 55:25
  Sorry. Yeah.
• 55:27
  The the development of those movies is Really interesting.
• 55:32
  But like so filmmaking is a team sport, right?
• 55:37
  Absolutely. That's the thing I love about
• 55:38
  it. Is that, you know, there are so
• 55:41
  many opportunities for people to kind of work together and make
• 55:44
  things better. And that's like, why the first
• 55:46
  movies are great. When you know that there is a
• 55:48
  first draft of stars, you can get as a graphic novel, and it's
• 55:51
  bananas. It doesn't make any sense.
• 55:53
  It's gobbledygook and you know, somebody said to George, Lucas
• 55:59
  like this is bad. You had to remake it.
• 56:00
  It. And that's where the first movie
• 56:02
  came out of and then they were coming to the second movie and,
• 56:05
  you know, he didn't write it. There you go, take your
• 56:07
  screwdriver and it different and different director.
• 56:10
  And then it got to the third movie.
• 56:12
  You know, the Ewoks were originally going to be Wookiees
• 56:16
  but they ran out of money. That would have been so much
• 56:18
  more awesome, I know. But like that's the reason why
• 56:21
  you Ox is exist, is they literally didn't have enough
• 56:24
  time or money to make those Wiki suits.
• 56:26
  So, like we sat wax now. Congratulations.
• 56:29
  Let's do fun. No, it's just no fun and then
• 56:33
  when it came to the prequels, it was all Lucas because nobody was
• 56:38
  saying no, and you kind of lost a little bit of that team, you
• 56:41
  know, team sport this, right? There's not enough people like
• 56:45
  sometimes, you know, art or whatever.
• 56:47
  Cinema can be truly great and it's One Vision, but Really it
• 56:54
  hit it takes somebody to you whenever you show off a piece of
• 56:57
  art and there's always going to be a corner that's unsanded and
• 57:00
  if you have people, you can trust.
• 57:02
  And you can say like, hey, what do you think of this?
• 57:04
  Like and they have good. Good feedback.
• 57:08
  It'll make it better and like those prequel movies was just an
• 57:11
  example of like somebody not having feedback and and not
• 57:17
  playing as a team and then the prequel movies like no plan,
• 57:21
  they wrote the first One and then they handed off the Baton.
• 57:25
  There's no overarching thing. It's like, it's an example of,
• 57:30
  you know, they're not bad movies.
• 57:31
  Like I mean, there were lines. The third one was like the I
• 57:37
  mean for me that was the one that I remember.
• 57:39
  The third one is that I remember seeing that in the cinema and
• 57:43
  being because I had to wait ages to go see it.
• 57:46
  And I saw it and I was very happy with the final product.
• 57:49
  I must say from I am an unpopular.
• 57:52
  Earlier opinion, I really like the eighth Star Wars movie.
• 57:56
  Exactly. Like Last Jedi also because it
• 57:59
  was doing something new, I can see why people didn't dig it.
• 58:01
  Like, I, And with, like rise of Skywalker, I kind of wish they
• 58:09
  did something a little bit new. I don't know.
• 58:11
  It's to be honest. I don't like the prequels
• 58:14
  either. Like, how do you know,
• 58:15
  somebody's a Star Wars fan? They hate Star Wars.
• 58:18
  That's how, you know, that's how you know, they're Star Wars fan.
• 58:22
  Just like, I don't like this for this.
• 58:24
  I love this and it's like, you're to Star Wars fan.
• 58:26
  That's great. Please don't talk online.
• 58:28
  You know what you do? Isn't it?
• 58:30
  Like, just going back to the toxicity side of things.
• 58:34
  Like, I think your point. Yeah.
• 58:37
  Like that even when I remember watching the sea cause I
• 58:40
  remember thinking like there's good stuff in this.
• 58:42
  This is this would work if it was nothing to do with Star
• 58:46
  Wars. This is Jen.
• 58:46
  And I mean, there was some clever stuff in there.
• 58:49
  I just feel that like, people's expectation was so much higher
• 58:53
  and then when it was delivered, it was didn't quite meet what
• 58:58
  they wanted or and I Think It's tricky because you don't really
• 59:01
  know what to deliver either because you want to it's a new
• 59:03
  generation, you want to deliver. Characters new stories and
• 59:06
  everything. You don't want to just
• 59:08
  completely hinge on the previous generation.
• 59:11
  But I feel in many ways they did do that, especially by bringing
• 59:14
  back Palpatine and stuff. I just thought that was a big
• 59:18
  mistake. They, they just didn't plan
• 59:21
  them. They had an outline by George
• 59:23
  Lucas. They didn't follow it.
• 59:25
  And, you know, it shows and but at the same time with toxicity,
• 59:30
  it's when people go way too far with them.
• 59:33
  Sorry, I see something like what people say So either way, they
• 59:35
  harass the actors and Stephanie, you're totally right.
• 59:38
  It's there, it's really tough because we've, you know, with
• 59:45
  all of this like pop art and just culture not only comic
• 59:49
  books Star Wars and other TV shows, you know, even with like
• 59:54
  lost it's just the thing is that these these stories are becoming
• 59:59
  also a huge part of people at people's identities.
• 1:00:03
  Hmm. And Why they get very invested
• 1:00:07
  in because it really kind of becomes a part of someone's
• 1:00:11
  personal origin. Story is like I saw Star Wars
• 1:00:13
  and it changed my life, blah blah blah and I'm not gonna lie
• 1:00:16
  it like I watched lost and I was like I want to do that for a
• 1:00:20
  living. Like I want to make stuff like
• 1:00:22
  this will cool and you know you become very invested in these
• 1:00:27
  and especially if you're creative, you know you start
• 1:00:30
  thinking like oh it could be like this could be like that and
• 1:00:33
  then when it doesn't happen the way, You want it to you, you can
• 1:00:36
  feel disappointed and people venting about it online and
• 1:00:40
  taking it out on actors or directors or writers is wrong
• 1:00:44
  and dumb. But do I understand it?
• 1:00:47
  I totally get it. I I vent about stuff like this.
• 1:00:50
  All the time. My poor wife is just sitting
• 1:00:52
  there. Just like, please.
• 1:00:53
  Can we times like sometimes it's fat, like, I think it really
• 1:00:57
  depends like with the Star Wars movies and thought you said,
• 1:01:00
  they tried to do something different and I think they
• 1:01:01
  should be applauded for that. And like one thing I will say,
• 1:01:04
  is that They made a logical story.
• 1:01:08
  It could have been expanded upon it.
• 1:01:09
  Could have been done in many different ways but it was a
• 1:01:11
  logical story with, you know, an ending and it was they put time
• 1:01:15
  and effort. And I thought about it, right
• 1:01:17
  whether or not it was the best, they could have done the worst,
• 1:01:20
  they could have done that's Up For Debate but it was finished,
• 1:01:22
  it was done. There you go, right?
• 1:01:25
  And there's many people that like it.
• 1:01:26
  Now when I compare that to something else that I was very
• 1:01:30
  disappointed by and I will actually happily slay all day is
• 1:01:34
  with, Game of Thrones and how that sort of played out for a
• 1:01:38
  long time. Because I feel that, you know,
• 1:01:40
  they did a lot of good storytelling for many different
• 1:01:43
  seasons, they got to a point and I feel like the directors on
• 1:01:48
  that kind of, I mean, this is the story I've had is that they
• 1:01:52
  got to a point. They were offered a lot of money
• 1:01:54
  for another project. Possibly another Star Wars
• 1:01:56
  Trilogy, or something else. Outside of that project.
• 1:02:00
  They'd sort of finish with the source material from the author.
• 1:02:05
  Books. And so from, I think, possibly
• 1:02:08
  season 6 or 7 onwards. It was all of their own doing
• 1:02:12
  and creative and stuff like that, and they'd been offered to
• 1:02:17
  go. As far as up to like 10 seasons,
• 1:02:20
  they refused that. So they essentially refused an
• 1:02:23
  opportunity to expand upon it and really go heavily into
• 1:02:26
  detail with the creatives. And I feel that my biggest issue
• 1:02:32
  above all else with the ending. Is some of the lack of logic in
• 1:02:39
  some of their decisions. Like with brand becoming King as
• 1:02:42
  an example. I I look at the whole Narrative
• 1:02:45
  of the entire thing and I'm like is there anything here that I
• 1:02:51
  missed? That may be implied.
• 1:02:53
  This you know because I feel like with a good story when you
• 1:02:57
  get to the end in and then you think back you think okay this
• 1:03:00
  was logical. This was hinted, there was
• 1:03:02
  little things here and there that ending I was I never That
• 1:03:05
  coming and it's not in a good way.
• 1:03:06
  It was in a kind of like, they just fought.
• 1:03:10
  Yeah, let's just do this. You know I am a huge Game of
• 1:03:14
  Thrones fan, I read all the books and I've read them all
• 1:03:18
  like like three times. So I've spent way too much of my
• 1:03:22
  life thinking about George RR Martin's writing, but you know,
• 1:03:29
  So I've worked on shows where we're big things happen.
• 1:03:32
  Like I can't name anything in particular because I'm afraid of
• 1:03:36
  lawyers, but like I've watched creative decisions.
• 1:03:39
  Like just being a little guy on the ground and like reading
• 1:03:41
  scripts coming in and watching. He'll like the absence of one
• 1:03:45
  person can really change how Productions work.
• 1:03:50
  So, you know, there's a million different decisions like you
• 1:03:53
  heard that going on. But like, you know, if HBO on to
• 1:03:56
  hire new writers they could, There are other writers that
• 1:03:59
  worked on that series. They could absolutely been like,
• 1:04:01
  you know, a guy's go with God. We're going to put it in their
• 1:04:03
  hands and you're good but there might have been a thing of like
• 1:04:07
  hey we can end it on time but also like there's so many
• 1:04:10
  different things, right? Like everybody a part of you, as
• 1:04:12
  a good party Game of Thrones, they want to move on, they're
• 1:04:14
  shooting in different parts of the world, you know?
• 1:04:19
  It's making TV is tough and I can't even imagine.
• 1:04:25
  And I'm saying that as a crew member who you know.
• 1:04:28
  I, you know, I like the way I describe my job as a prop guy
• 1:04:33
  is. All right.
• 1:04:35
  Watch when you're watching a TV show and you see a glass of
• 1:04:40
  water and he watched the levels on it, go up and down.
• 1:04:44
  I'm the guy that fucks that up, right?
• 1:04:46
  Like that's, that's my job. I'm the guy putting the glass of
• 1:04:49
  water out there but you know, if you think about the actors on
• 1:04:53
  that show who want to just move like 10 years, your life, like
• 1:04:57
  you want to move on, everybody wants to move on the directors,
• 1:05:01
  want to move on the other writers on the move, on the
• 1:05:03
  people working on the show where I move on and It's nobody's
• 1:05:09
  fault. Like certainly, I had wish they
• 1:05:12
  had written something different. I stopped watching Ice.
• 1:05:15
  As soon as we got to the students and make it real quick
• 1:05:17
  though. Like with what you're saying to
• 1:05:20
  your point. I feel like that is kind of
• 1:05:22
  exactly what I was saying there that there's this like laziness
• 1:05:26
  with that ending it sounds creativity.
• 1:05:29
  Like okay, yeah, everyone wants to end it fine.
• 1:05:31
  But do you really have to just be like let's just put anything
• 1:05:35
  out there just so it's done and we can move on with our Lives
• 1:05:39
  because I know me personally, if that ending had actually had
• 1:05:43
  time and effort spent on it and they'd actually done something
• 1:05:45
  logical, I would happily re-watch it again and again.
• 1:05:49
  But for me, I can't we watch it again 110%.
• 1:05:52
  They you know, dance that but that's part of it.
• 1:05:57
  Is that here? The here this is the unfortunate
• 1:06:00
  truth of any anything you watch on TV or in the movies unless
• 1:06:04
  it's like a true art film all of this stuff.
• 1:06:08
  His to make money, right? And Nothing Stops.
• 1:06:12
  Making money, like not putting it out, right?
• 1:06:14
  Like, that's a huge thing. Like, just the massive
• 1:06:18
  production of that thing, like when I say it's a train, like it
• 1:06:21
  is truly a train and when you run out of pages to shoot, you
• 1:06:26
  know, we're talking thousands of dollars like over fifty thousand
• 1:06:30
  dollars. That's like 100,000 it's like, I
• 1:06:33
  don't know what the exact number would be on those episodes, but
• 1:06:36
  if they won't be in the Millions, Yeah, I mean, it's
• 1:06:39
  insane. So you're a business and I'm not
• 1:06:43
  saying this is right? I'm not saying that, it's just
• 1:06:46
  or any thing is that really when it comes to a thing of like they
• 1:06:50
  ran out of material from George r.r.
• 1:06:51
  Martin, right? And you know, God God only knows
• 1:06:56
  if he even has an ending, you know, because he's been writing
• 1:06:59
  those books for 20 years, there might not be an ending, like the
• 1:07:02
  whole thing about bran being King, probably is true.
• 1:07:06
  That's probably how the books are going to end.
• 1:07:08
  And it's an and you know a lot of there's so much stuff lost
• 1:07:15
  that was in the books. It was really interesting but
• 1:07:17
  like even George r.r. Martin.
• 1:07:19
  You know, the reason why that story is like really popular is
• 1:07:23
  how it subverts storytelling, you know, the first season
• 1:07:25
  you're like wow Edwards going to go to the wall and that's going
• 1:07:28
  to be great and he and John are going to be great and they're
• 1:07:30
  gonna get the boys and black. They're going to storm King's
• 1:07:33
  Landing and then entered spoiler.
• 1:07:36
  If you have a watch Game of Thrones shame on you.
• 1:07:38
  Come on. Yeah, and better dies and you're
• 1:07:40
  like whoa the main character of this thing just died.
• 1:07:46
  I see that was probably one of the best things about the show
• 1:07:48
  is like who they would kill and how they would do it.
• 1:07:51
  I got to commend them for that, they will every single season
• 1:07:54
  and that's the thing that really is neat about Game of Thrones is
• 1:07:57
  how it kept on subvert Ace, subverting classic storytelling
• 1:08:01
  things, right? Because it really got to the
• 1:08:02
  point of like this is when the hero is going to win and they're
• 1:08:05
  like, nope, they're dead, your skull got crushed it, and Well,
• 1:08:08
  certain point. Yeah, then you know, in the
• 1:08:11
  books, like there is a theory that every time George r.r.,
• 1:08:15
  Martin mentions, the meereenese knot that this is him saying to
• 1:08:19
  the reader, like I don't know what I'm doing and then you're
• 1:08:23
  writing that TV show and you have this awesome roadmap that
• 1:08:25
  you kind of get to simplify and do what you want with it and now
• 1:08:29
  you're out you have no idea what's coming next and you have
• 1:08:33
  to figure it out, you know. Remember there they have.
• 1:08:37
  They The pleasure of not only for the privileged, they had the
• 1:08:42
  privilege of not only having a roadmap but a very
• 1:08:46
  well-thought-out roadmap for them and then it just ran out
• 1:08:49
  and now you have to figure it out.
• 1:08:51
  But on top of this on top of writing you now have a million
• 1:08:56
  other decisions. You got casting, you have
• 1:08:58
  budgets. You've got, you've got HBO
• 1:09:01
  calling you about merchandise. You have to do press, you've got
• 1:09:04
  to do interviews and you want your also been on this for
• 1:09:08
  probably like 12 years at. Well, they were on it for like
• 1:09:11
  10 years at this point and your mind, you know, you've got kids,
• 1:09:15
  you got your relationship with your wife and, you know, do I
• 1:09:20
  think they should have been like, hey, you guys go to
• 1:09:22
  Disney? Fuck off, let's get some other
• 1:09:24
  people in there. It probably just got to the
• 1:09:27
  point where everybody is like we want to move on and they just
• 1:09:29
  they threw that ending out and it wasn't good.
• 1:09:33
  But if anything here's the lesson you want to write a good
• 1:09:37
  story plan it out. Yeah.
• 1:09:39
  And like since we're talking about this as well like I feel
• 1:09:42
  that this is a final word on that.
• 1:09:45
  Like even if they did tweak that a little bit done, something
• 1:09:50
  like made John King that I think would have salvaged it at least
• 1:09:54
  from the story telling Arc, you know what I mean.
• 1:09:57
  But it's I guess I guess it really is is Up For Debate.
• 1:10:01
  I mean the example that came to my mind since we talked That
• 1:10:03
  controversial endings is I recently re-watched the series
• 1:10:07
  How I Met Your Mother? The TV show.
• 1:10:09
  See that controversially had a controversial ending.
• 1:10:14
  Remember re-watching, it back and thinking I can see why
• 1:10:17
  people disliked this, but I don't really get why its
• 1:10:22
  controversial. Because from the storytelling
• 1:10:24
  perspective from the very beginning to the very end, it
• 1:10:29
  was logical throughout it hints at it throughout its It doesn't
• 1:10:33
  like shock, you June, and I mean, there's shock value within
• 1:10:37
  it. But I think if anything it's
• 1:10:41
  trying to say, okay, it is about this thing, but the underlying
• 1:10:46
  story this entire time has been this and if you watch it back,
• 1:10:49
  you can see that. And that's I think what made it
• 1:10:52
  a clever, you know, ending and I get that people don't like it,
• 1:10:56
  you know, but I think they're more romanticizing, the
• 1:10:58
  characters rather than actually looking at The Logical Narrative
• 1:11:01
  of the story and kind of Thinking about that.
• 1:11:05
  But and that is what my issue was with Game of Thrones.
• 1:11:09
  It wasn't wasn't so much that I was romanticizing.
• 1:11:11
  Like, oh, I wish it was like this.
• 1:11:12
  I wish John was killing wish it was this.
• 1:11:14
  It was more that they just never hinted about the brand thing.
• 1:11:18
  They never really kind of said like this is a possibility it
• 1:11:22
  was more like. Okay this is not a possibility
• 1:11:25
  because we've changed this character now and it's like this
• 1:11:28
  and this is all you can expect from this character.
• 1:11:31
  So then get to that ending was a bit like Uh-huh.
• 1:11:35
  Yeah. It's I don't know, man.
• 1:11:41
  It's You know, I the only thing I can speak from their
• 1:11:45
  perspective is like, you know, I've written an audio drama like
• 1:11:48
  Yay, you know, I mean I think it's pretty cool.
• 1:11:50
  You should listen, listen, spr superhuman public radio.
• 1:11:53
  Look it up but It's like not only a storytelling really hard
• 1:12:00
  but also kind of giving the audience what they want.
• 1:12:03
  But also delivering something new like, If if you're a
• 1:12:08
  creative out there and you can deliver all those things man,
• 1:12:12
  God bless you. Like it stuff like I do you know
• 1:12:17
  with the weird little things that I make that I'm like yeah
• 1:12:20
  this is gonna be the thing that puts me on the map and so he was
• 1:12:23
  like nah know so I do is sucks. Yeah yeah my cup of tea is like
• 1:12:32
  all right. All right fine I'll try
• 1:12:34
  something new. But yeah, the lesson is planet.
• 1:12:39
  Oh my God. Just plan it plan it out.
• 1:12:44
  Talking to your work is a props Master.
• 1:12:46
  You'll see very briefly mentioned earlier that you'd
• 1:12:49
  worked on House of Cards and I didn't want to jump straight
• 1:12:51
  into this, but now that we've arrived at that part of sure the
• 1:12:54
  intensity. So you've worked on House of
• 1:12:57
  Cards, Wonder Woman, 1984 Philomena, plenty of other
• 1:13:02
  amazing Productions. I guess I wanted to just ask you
• 1:13:08
  because I've worked on film sets as well.
• 1:13:09
  I've seen how it works. I was recently on the Tenant
• 1:13:14
  movie. Christopher Nolan movie?
• 1:13:17
  And yeah, it was fun. It was interesting.
• 1:13:20
  A particularly just watching, you know, Nolan work and how he
• 1:13:23
  directed it and everything. And also just that.
• 1:13:26
  Yeah, everyone else on the team like you said before it is very
• 1:13:28
  much a team production and like anyone that hasn't been on a
• 1:13:32
  movie set, I don't think can fully appreciate that.
• 1:13:35
  They kind of Lord it to like, oh, isn't this director?
• 1:13:37
  Amazing isn't the actors amazing.
• 1:13:39
  But so much goes on behind the scenes in just making things
• 1:13:43
  possible. Abel.
• 1:13:45
  And it's without those people, you just wouldn't have a movie
• 1:13:48
  or a TV show, but I guess I just wanted to ask you like, how
• 1:13:53
  professional are these people? Like I don't know how much
• 1:13:56
  involvement you'd have directly with the actors and stuff, but
• 1:13:58
  people like, you know, Services, say Kevin Spacey or Gal Gadot
• 1:14:02
  Judi. Dench as an example, like all
• 1:14:05
  these people, what we hear about are they've really egotistical
• 1:14:11
  or are they actually just there doing their?
• 1:14:14
  Like everyone else like, yeah, um, well one.
• 1:14:18
  So I am a sometimes prop master. I'm usually just a prop guy on
• 1:14:23
  Wonder Woman. 84, that was Steve George.
• 1:14:25
  He passed away last year, which I consider a huge loss for the
• 1:14:29
  community. He was a very, you know, he was,
• 1:14:32
  he was very on top on on House of Cards that was Christina kill
• 1:14:37
  P. I've done it for kind of like
• 1:14:39
  smaller Productions or, you know, B units.
• 1:14:42
  But with actors You know. I didn't get to interact with
• 1:14:48
  Gal, Gadot. I was on 84.
• 1:14:50
  I did the be unit as their prop master, and then I was just kind
• 1:14:53
  of like a normal hand. Most of the people out there.
• 1:14:59
  Totally professional, you know, they're just there to do their
• 1:15:02
  jobs. You know, the people that you
• 1:15:06
  ever hear Bad stories about, they're the ones that are bad
• 1:15:08
  like everybody else. They're just there to work.
• 1:15:10
  And you know, even you know I got to prop Kevin Spacey a
• 1:15:14
  couple of times and you know obviously is bad person who you
• 1:15:17
  know, there's a reason why he's not working anymore, but the
• 1:15:20
  same time like watching Kevin Spacey Act was was huge.
• 1:15:23
  It was like he just you know he be telling a story and then he
• 1:15:27
  would go and whoop and, you know, boom he would be ranked
• 1:15:30
  Underwood which was amazing. But you know, I was on this TV
• 1:15:36
  show the good Lord bird and My prop Master on that who is John
• 1:15:42
  birt very talented guy. And one of the things that he
• 1:15:47
  did is he made sure that even though typically on a set, the
• 1:15:51
  assistant prop Master is the one who's there.
• 1:15:54
  Working with the actors making sure that all the props are
• 1:15:58
  being used correctly, or in the right places and the way that we
• 1:16:02
  ran that set is pretty much everybody got time on site and
• 1:16:05
  made sure that we all the actors, all knew who we were and
• 1:16:09
  We're able to, you know, trust us to handle their props or tell
• 1:16:14
  them how to use things properly and I got to see Ethan Hawke who
• 1:16:18
  I'm like a huge fan of and watching that guy work was
• 1:16:22
  amazing. Like he he came in with a good
• 1:16:24
  attitude every day he worked with the directors, you know,
• 1:16:29
  and responded to how you know, we really collaborated with
• 1:16:33
  them. You know, every once in a while
• 1:16:35
  you get an actor who might be a little bit salty.
• 1:16:39
  Or maybe even like a background actor, who could give us the
• 1:16:42
  other examples? Give us some.
• 1:16:44
  Well, I mean like they're so unlike any show, there's gun
• 1:16:50
  stuff on. There's always like, stunt guys
• 1:16:55
  are the worst, they break all over.
• 1:16:56
  They break everything. It's amazing.
• 1:16:59
  They're all Cowboys and I love them.
• 1:17:01
  They're the funniest guys in the world but like as a prop guy
• 1:17:05
  like a stuntman, we'll just come back and like hand almost like
• 1:17:08
  when that stunt guy. Working on set, you're like
• 1:17:11
  yeah, damn it. And I haven't I've been very
• 1:17:17
  lucky to not have any like, truly bad interactions with with
• 1:17:24
  actors there bit. Definitely been ones.
• 1:17:26
  Where I'm like that guy doesn't like me.
• 1:17:28
  That's fine. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna get
• 1:17:29
  out of here. Anyone anyone in particular I'm
• 1:17:32
  so I am not the hero of the story I'm about to tell.
• 1:17:37
  So I'm just putting that out there.
• 1:17:39
  There, and one of the earliest movies I worked on, was this
• 1:17:44
  independent movie and Baltimore called learning Uncle Vincent.
• 1:17:47
  And then it was really a retitled love and it's movie
• 1:17:51
  Young. A first-rate Afrocentric movie
• 1:17:54
  about a young man learning that his uncle's of criminal and it
• 1:17:58
  started common, who's great and, you know, just chill guy.
• 1:18:03
  And we had this young actor. Michael Raney, jr.
• 1:18:07
  Who's like now on you like he has Like the star of his own TV
• 1:18:10
  show. Now, just pretty cool and one of
• 1:18:13
  the actors was Danny Glover and it was awesome, right?
• 1:18:18
  And like I was, you know, I was just like an art guy working at
• 1:18:21
  this movie, just like the guy hold on, is that guy who he was
• 1:18:25
  in, Lethal Weapon? Yeah, yeah, it's him.
• 1:18:30
  And I was told by my boss, Alex Brooklyn and she was like, you
• 1:18:35
  gotta go take photos of dangle ever.
• 1:18:37
  It was like, cool. Wait, like See.
• 1:18:39
  Danny Glover just like the Danny Glover.
• 1:18:41
  He's right over there. And we were shooting this like
• 1:18:44
  Mansion. Not this like nice large house
• 1:18:47
  in the better parts of Baltimore.
• 1:18:50
  He's walking up the hill and have this like super slight
• 1:18:54
  incline and I run up to him now. Just like huffing and puffing
• 1:18:58
  puffing puffing and then finally catch up to his like mr.
• 1:19:01
  Glover. And he's like, yeah, it's just
• 1:19:02
  like, I gotta take, I got to take pictures of you as like,
• 1:19:05
  why you gotta take pictures to mean?
• 1:19:07
  It's like I'm in the art Department.
• 1:19:08
  It's so we Put your photo in the photo frames, which, by the way.
• 1:19:12
  Nobody, nobody looks at that. Look at all the photo frames in
• 1:19:14
  a movie. We have all these photos of
• 1:19:15
  actors. You never notices.
• 1:19:17
  I hate it. I notice it somehow.
• 1:19:19
  Okay. You notice that.
• 1:19:20
  You're the one guy. Anyways, so he's like, what
• 1:19:22
  depends if it's like in a problem.
• 1:19:24
  So if it's like in there in the house and it's like, I don't
• 1:19:26
  know if it's, if it's up to them family.
• 1:19:28
  Yeah, something. Yeah.
• 1:19:30
  So, you know, he's like, I need to get a sandwich, you can take
• 1:19:33
  them after that and like, all right.
• 1:19:35
  All right, mr. Glover, that's fine.
• 1:19:36
  So he walks up the hill. By the way, Danny Glover is Is
• 1:19:39
  the tallest human being who's ever lived.
• 1:19:42
  I'm also 59. So, most people are taller than
• 1:19:44
  me and he walks over to the crafty truck.
• 1:19:47
  He gets his pant, his like cheese and bologna sandwich with
• 1:19:51
  all the crust, cut off, cut diagonally, and he proceeds to
• 1:19:54
  eat this tiny sandwich. Like it takes like 20 minutes.
• 1:19:58
  I'm just staying there, really camera.
• 1:20:00
  Just like, I need to take photos of you mystery lover, and he's
• 1:20:03
  just eating trying to ignore me the world's most annoying human
• 1:20:07
  being in the world right now. Anything, I guess you call him
• 1:20:10
  on his lunch or something? Yeah.
• 1:20:12
  Well, he uses, they're visiting set that day.
• 1:20:14
  And then, finally, he finishes that.
• 1:20:17
  And then I'm like, can I take your photo now?
• 1:20:18
  Mystery lover. And then he's like, I have to go
• 1:20:22
  over my lines. You can do that after that.
• 1:20:24
  So he goes and he leans over his lifetime, standing in their
• 1:20:27
  Corner, holding the camera. It's like another 30 minutes.
• 1:20:30
  My boss is texting me. Like, yeah, those photos yet.
• 1:20:32
  Like he's reading the script and, you know, he finishes the
• 1:20:37
  script and finally, Like now mr. Glover and he's like, yeah, you
• 1:20:41
  can take the photos now and like he stands off to the side and
• 1:20:45
  I'm like trying to take photos. The Delight changes.
• 1:20:48
  So I'm like trying to switch that and take photos.
• 1:20:51
  They're all terrible. And, you know, he starts walking
• 1:20:56
  away and I'm like, mystery lover just a couple areas.
• 1:20:58
  Like man, you've been in my face for like an hour.
• 1:21:00
  Like yeah, your Mana like, all right?
• 1:21:02
  Okay, your breath away. Like a muppet, you know, runs my
• 1:21:06
  boss, who's like, did you get those photos like - lose any of?
• 1:21:09
  Show them, she's like, well, shit, we are not using any of
• 1:21:12
  these. And, you know, later on in the
• 1:21:15
  day, I'm trying to stay out of his eye line.
• 1:21:18
  And then all of a sudden I heard like, I just hear this, like,
• 1:21:23
  very gentle, like, hey, hey, little baby.
• 1:21:27
  And I'm like, Surely somebody is not saying hey little baby to me
• 1:21:34
  grown person. John Dorsey and I heard it
• 1:21:37
  little baby come over here and I look and stag lowercase on set
• 1:21:40
  and he's waving me over. I'm like oh okay the ways we
• 1:21:43
  have really come here. Come here little baby.
• 1:21:45
  Like I come up. Look, I'm sorry for yelling at
• 1:21:47
  you, you know, I was just having a bad day, are we cool little
• 1:21:50
  baby and then he puts out his hand, which by the way, it's
• 1:21:54
  just like a huge just like That's awesome.
• 1:21:58
  That's great. Yeah we're cool man.
• 1:22:00
  And he shakes my hand a crushes. It okay.
• 1:22:04
  Just just crushes. My hands that he pulls me out of
• 1:22:07
  here. Just goes.
• 1:22:08
  We're all right. Right little baby.
• 1:22:10
  I'm like yes sir. Everything's cool.
• 1:22:12
  Yes, you're right. Everything's awesome.
• 1:22:14
  I ran away. An associate producer was like I
• 1:22:17
  think he likes you and is like I don't think that's the case.
• 1:22:20
  And yeah that's like the one that bad.
• 1:22:25
  I mean I was so annoying. I just some 22 year old kid.
• 1:22:28
  Just like a hairpin bends pissing off Taylor.
• 1:22:32
  I love that like that. I have that forever.
• 1:22:35
  Sorry for my perspective, that makes him sound like a bit of a
• 1:22:37
  joke, because, I mean, I will, if you want a movie set, right?
• 1:22:41
  And you're an actor, you, I mean, you'll bet everyone's
• 1:22:45
  talking to you for various different things.
• 1:22:47
  Yeah, I've done it. I've been the lead guy.
• 1:22:49
  I've been in all different roles, right, and right?
• 1:22:53
  That's what you have to expect and it's a grueling process.
• 1:22:57
  Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, it's like all day, sometimes like 15,
• 1:23:00
  16 hours or more, every single day for like, however, long it,
• 1:23:04
  although it's usually. That's the thing.
• 1:23:06
  It's usually less for the actors.
• 1:23:08
  Everyone else has to work insane hours.
• 1:23:12
  The actors at least get like break since the especially like
• 1:23:14
  the main lead actors and stuff with that, especially like
• 1:23:19
  considering he's a point in his career where That he doesn't
• 1:23:24
  really have to like regularly, be that Jen.
• 1:23:26
  And I mean like to give an example, right?
• 1:23:29
  Yeah. Even with even when I was I was
• 1:23:32
  doing tenet I saw and this really changed my perspective
• 1:23:36
  about the film industry. I saw Robert Pattinson basically
• 1:23:40
  like he was pretty much just kept in his trailer the whole
• 1:23:44
  time waiting to be called, right?
• 1:23:46
  So at least got to be comfortable but basically just
• 1:23:49
  sitting around and there was one morning where he dressed in like
• 1:23:52
  full SWAT gear Yeah. And it's like 9:00 10:00 a.m.
• 1:23:55
  and he's sitting there for like two hours or something, just
• 1:23:58
  waiting. And then Nolan or someone else
• 1:24:01
  just says, like, oh yeah, we don't need you.
• 1:24:04
  This is like, okay. Alright then he just leaves and
• 1:24:08
  gets undressed and stuff and it's like, that's that's how it
• 1:24:10
  is. I mean, like, when I was doing
• 1:24:14
  background for that movie, I was dressed head to toe in one
• 1:24:19
  particular scene for like two weeks in sort of like dress, A
• 1:24:23
  tire and bear in mind. It's like middle of summer and
• 1:24:27
  you know, where were you guys shooting?
• 1:24:29
  By the way, what segment of the movie is this just this is the
• 1:24:32
  beginning pauses when it was shot in Estonia.
• 1:24:35
  So that must have been cool. Yeah, I mean it was it was I
• 1:24:39
  tell you there was some cool stuff I got to see as a John
• 1:24:42
  David Washington during his stance of got.
• 1:24:45
  I saw him like smash a wall in and jump from a like this.
• 1:24:51
  I don't know what you were. It's like an Festival theater.
• 1:24:54
  Also a theater and basically he jumped from like the VIP box
• 1:24:58
  like smashed out of it. And I saw that stunt about
• 1:25:01
  50,000 times. Yeah.
• 1:25:03
  And then all the stuff for the terrorists and the SWAT Team,
• 1:25:07
  all of that fun stuff. But anyway, basically the point
• 1:25:12
  is that like doesn't matter who you are, you can be the very top
• 1:25:16
  actor or some meaningless. Background actor like me and you
• 1:25:20
  still get treated the same way, although Do you at least have a
• 1:25:24
  trailer I guess? Sure.
• 1:25:27
  I never tried never taken it personally.
• 1:25:30
  If anybody saw tea with me because like he never know, like
• 1:25:33
  I You know, I've had co-workers yell at me, I've yelled at
• 1:25:38
  co-workers and I'm like, later in the day we come we hug, we
• 1:25:40
  make up and is fine and like, you know what, it's not like.
• 1:25:45
  It's as long as a good story comes out of it, as long as you
• 1:25:48
  don't get fired. Like you know what it's just
• 1:25:51
  another thing until somebody over a beer.
• 1:25:56
  That's one good thing about film projects isn't it?
• 1:25:58
  That like every time it's different people as well.
• 1:26:01
  So like even if you had one particular bad experience,
• 1:26:05
  chances are the chances of you working with all the same
• 1:26:08
  people. I like slim to none like maybe a
• 1:26:10
  couple of people here and there but like, mostly, it's going to
• 1:26:13
  always be different. Yeah, and, you know, you know,
• 1:26:17
  I've been doing this for like 10 years now and I've gotten to
• 1:26:21
  this point like I am about to have my my son like, Ation, I
• 1:26:24
  get. Thank you.
• 1:26:25
  And like, do I want to get out of the industry?
• 1:26:28
  So I can spend more time with my kid.
• 1:26:30
  I'm like, I don't know how to do anything else, like, I can do a
• 1:26:33
  lot of things. I'm just I, but I don't do any
• 1:26:36
  of them particularly. Well, I can, I only know a bunch
• 1:26:40
  of things because of having been a prop guy, I have to learn new
• 1:26:44
  things every time. Like, last year, I had to learn
• 1:26:46
  how to use black powder guns, you know, that's a skill, I have
• 1:26:49
  now, that's not useful in the real world, nobody needs to know
• 1:26:53
  how to shoot black. Counter weapons.
• 1:26:56
  But I don't know. It's I've had so many weird
• 1:27:01
  things happen on movie sets, like, I had Stephen frears come
• 1:27:05
  up to me on its Philomena, I didn't even know it was him.
• 1:27:09
  I was. Yeah, I used to smoke.
• 1:27:10
  So, you know, I was lighting a cigarette and then I had the
• 1:27:14
  lighters not working. I look up and Stephen for her
• 1:27:16
  standing in front of me, goes up, light light up like all
• 1:27:19
  right. I'm smoking American Spirits and
• 1:27:22
  you plucked it out of my mouth just went.
• 1:27:24
  Mmm. But no chemicals taste like and
• 1:27:28
  he just put the cigarette back in my mouth and you just walked
• 1:27:30
  away. The only experience I had with
• 1:27:32
  Stephen frears, like who is that guy does?
• 1:27:36
  Look at the director of the movie?
• 1:27:38
  That's the most important person here.
• 1:27:40
  I can't ever imagine doing that in life.
• 1:27:44
  Like no matter how successful our become just just acting like
• 1:27:47
  that in real life. Just just doing what I want to
• 1:27:50
  anyone. I can't imagine that like, I,
• 1:27:53
  you know, I don't think it's good behavior. but I've always
• 1:27:57
  the better directors I've ever been on set for Have are usually
• 1:28:03
  the scarier people and it's not condoning their behavior.
• 1:28:07
  But you know, to truly get what you want, you kind of need to
• 1:28:12
  not have a filter or you kind of can't stand on normal social
• 1:28:19
  graces because You know, it's just you they're going to get
• 1:28:25
  what they need and truly like you'll just search snap to
• 1:28:28
  attention, you're running your try to get things done properly
• 1:28:32
  but then at the same time they're very kind directors, you
• 1:28:35
  know Patty Jenkins watching her direct was great.
• 1:28:39
  She's just like a very. She knows what she wants, she's
• 1:28:42
  very consistent with it. You can tell she's a mom because
• 1:28:45
  when people are like, oh, I have this consent, you know, this,
• 1:28:47
  that kind of idea and they talked to her about it.
• 1:28:49
  She like, mmm, I hear you and she would very Definitely kind
• 1:28:54
  of like, but we're going to do it my way and it's like, oh cool
• 1:28:57
  Patty Jenkins like super friendly.
• 1:28:59
  Nice lady. But like you're gonna do it her
• 1:29:01
  way. She does great.
• 1:29:04
  This is nice lady. man, I wished I don't really have like a lot
• 1:29:11
  of Dirt. I'm sure if I really truly
• 1:29:16
  thought about it. What are, you know, what are
• 1:29:18
  some of the better ones, the more positive experiences you
• 1:29:21
  mentioned, just one, just there. What, what else?
• 1:29:24
  Well, I mean, I've met Melissa Leo on one of the first Indian
• 1:29:28
  Hindi movies that I worked on. We're just smoking cigarettes
• 1:29:31
  and, you know, it's my first movie and you know, she's like,
• 1:29:35
  what are you doing? Like I'm an art PA and you know
• 1:29:38
  later that year she won an Oscar and she was like just talking to
• 1:29:41
  me being like a nice person and You know, again, Ethan Hawke
• 1:29:44
  coolest guy in the world, really nice.
• 1:29:48
  Who would you come drink beers and our prop check at the end of
• 1:29:51
  the night every once in a while and generally everybody on that
• 1:29:55
  show was really kind Orlando Jones called me a handsome man
• 1:30:01
  which I will take to my grave. Like just you know I die I will
• 1:30:05
  always have that. Never mind.
• 1:30:10
  Yeah just on House of Cards. I was helping and I was the
• 1:30:14
  onset prop guy for a scene with Robin Wright and, you know, it
• 1:30:19
  was unfolding like she had to unfold headphones as a part of
• 1:30:23
  the scene. And like, I mean, you can
• 1:30:25
  imagine how annoying that is like, just at home, it's
• 1:30:27
  impossible. It's and so, I have like a
• 1:30:30
  second one that was unfolding as like Robin.
• 1:30:32
  You can use this, and she was like, oh, so you're like, I'm,
• 1:30:35
  like the robin to your Batman. And, like, my brain stopped it
• 1:30:38
  just like, I stopped moving. Like, I ceased to be a normal
• 1:30:42
  human being for a I was like, oh my God, Robin Wright called me
• 1:30:45
  Batman. I love, you didn't connect
• 1:30:48
  because her name is Robin. Yeah, it's like and just working
• 1:30:54
  on movies, just a lot of fun. Nobody would do it.
• 1:30:58
  If it wasn't fun. Yeah.
• 1:31:01
  I was background. And one of the scenes and good
• 1:31:03
  Lord bird like shooting blanks at the good guys, which is
• 1:31:07
  awesome. It's yeah, it's just a ray, I've
• 1:31:12
  made it, you know, weird, weird jobs where you have worked
• 1:31:17
  Bollywood movies. I've for a commercial.
• 1:31:19
  I made a gun that shot money. Yeah, it's never the same.
• 1:31:25
  It's It's a unique career. What's the craziest prop you've
• 1:31:31
  ever designed tool sourced? Oh my God.
• 1:31:35
  Sourced because I was reading into your row and it's
• 1:31:40
  interesting. Like it seems to be that it's
• 1:31:43
  not just the creation of props but also like how you acquire
• 1:31:47
  them and I was thinking like right there that's going to be
• 1:31:49
  tricky because I bet you sometimes the director says, all
• 1:31:52
  right, I want this and you're like how the fuck am I gonna get
• 1:31:55
  that? No.
• 1:31:59
  It's always stuff that small that's annoying.
• 1:32:02
  Like, for a movie that is not out, but I worked on we needed.
• 1:32:10
  So we get like breakdowns and they'll say like, oh we need
• 1:32:13
  this this thing and, you know, know this stuff exists when it
• 1:32:18
  does. But like, custom stuff just
• 1:32:20
  doesn't just sit somewhere. And they had this thing of like
• 1:32:23
  secret paperwork and it was 11:00 at night and I was putting
• 1:32:27
  Ting license plates on cars for a driving seen an airport and
• 1:32:32
  it's just like nobody told me about this, wasn't it?
• 1:32:35
  Any of the breakdowns? And there's just like you need
• 1:32:37
  secret paperwork and I was like, what?
• 1:32:41
  The, I was like screaming in my car is like, what the hell?
• 1:32:46
  Like, I don't know what this is. So like, called my prop friends,
• 1:32:50
  who are awake researched, what secret like top secret paperwork
• 1:32:55
  looks like figure it out. To photoshop everything for it,
• 1:32:59
  you know, had to get the right, the manila folder they typically
• 1:33:03
  use for this. Like, with secret code things
• 1:33:07
  that are like whatever. Just all this research stayed up
• 1:33:09
  till 4, a.m. doing all this, we get to set, you know, I show the
• 1:33:14
  director, I have three different versions of it, you know, one
• 1:33:17
  that is actually correct to that.
• 1:33:19
  Just like, look cool for the movies and, you know, the
• 1:33:22
  character has the paperwork in his hand.
• 1:33:23
  He's like it's not going to fit in my coat and the writer who's
• 1:33:26
  the guy, by the way. Give this guy like at I guess
• 1:33:29
  10:30 the night before I was like, oh we should have secret
• 1:33:31
  paperwork in this project and you know, he was like, you know
• 1:33:35
  what, what if it's just a thumb drive.
• 1:33:38
  And I like if you saw me like my buddy Bob, who I work with?
• 1:33:45
  He was looking at me, like, cracking up.
• 1:33:46
  He knew I just wanted to explode into a ball of fire.
• 1:33:51
  Oh, man. But just like side, like, you
• 1:33:53
  know, took the thumb drive off my keys and just hand it over.
• 1:33:56
  It was just like Goodbye. And I just washed away set but
• 1:34:01
  I've had I've had this Source, a dead dog, you know?
• 1:34:04
  For a movie. Yeah.
• 1:34:06
  They have like Taxidermy dogs from water.
• 1:34:10
  So like there's a lot of like like there's like two companies
• 1:34:13
  that have like just like just a warehouse full of dead animals.
• 1:34:16
  You can get. So, so what did you have
• 1:34:20
  planned? It was like a So yeah.
• 1:34:23
  So you've got this this Taxidermy, dog, and then you've
• 1:34:26
  got a lot, like, make it look like it's just died or
• 1:34:29
  something. Then, like just like little
• 1:34:31
  bloody, you know, and this things like soda because has
• 1:34:34
  been on a million Productions, it smells like mothballs, it's
• 1:34:37
  gross God. How do you?
• 1:34:41
  I meant, this might sound like a stupid question, but obviously,
• 1:34:43
  like a lot of the time, the animals are very stiff like
• 1:34:45
  this, you know, so how do you make it look like it's had some
• 1:34:48
  life in it or it's like, you know.
• 1:34:49
  So they typically they'll have like one source.
• 1:34:52
  You know, you have it's the weirdest fucking conversations
• 1:34:55
  that you have on these things because like you'll have to talk
• 1:34:58
  with the, you know, you'll ask like the directions like you
• 1:35:05
  know, somebody shoot the dog like what's up know like it was
• 1:35:08
  run over in, you're like all right, great.
• 1:35:09
  And he called, you know, like boop-boo-boo-boop like hello
• 1:35:12
  taxidermied animal company. Do you have something that looks
• 1:35:14
  like it's been run over and like, oh yeah, sure.
• 1:35:16
  So that golden retriever or like a hound are like golden
• 1:35:19
  retriever like yeah. I got just the thing.
• 1:35:21
  They'll email you You a box. Full of just this dead dog.
• 1:35:24
  And like this was somebody's dog and now it's always me and oh,
• 1:35:31
  this one's fun. Okay.
• 1:35:33
  Weirdest prop that we had to Source in the good Lord bird.
• 1:35:37
  There's a scene where the main character is, like, hiding
• 1:35:40
  behind a tree. In this guy.
• 1:35:41
  Hops off a cart and he takes a piss, right?
• 1:35:44
  Well, you can't pull your your dick out on a movie set with a
• 1:35:50
  kid. So we had to find Fake penis.
• 1:35:53
  So what we had five days to do this so we we had we found a
• 1:35:59
  bunch of them. We found one that was for Trans
• 1:36:04
  trans men to help them pee like a prosthetic.
• 1:36:07
  So we had one of those and then we also had a rubber Ghibli Jam
• 1:36:12
  bleep penis that was like you know four months we would throw
• 1:36:16
  at each other. Like you are paying attention
• 1:36:19
  this like rubber dick would just like you in the face and I was
• 1:36:22
  Wound up finding this thing called The Wiz inator which is
• 1:36:25
  to help people beat drug tests and like, this was like days of
• 1:36:30
  work of like being on set like doing all of this Western stuff
• 1:36:34
  and putting, you know, making sure the guns are right and then
• 1:36:38
  also being on my phone was like fake penis prop Richmond's
• 1:36:43
  goddamn it, we're making flan. And then, of course, when it
• 1:36:47
  gets to be on set, the kids 14 that was in the project.
• 1:36:52
  Then a producer walks up and it's like, what are all those?
• 1:36:55
  Because we have this table with like three fake penises on it.
• 1:36:59
  The guy that's gonna win, they're like you can't do that.
• 1:37:02
  You can't have anything that looks like a penis near this
• 1:37:04
  kid. We get fined, five thousand
• 1:37:06
  dollars. So all this work went away and
• 1:37:09
  then instead, we got Sculpey and we made a very phallic looking
• 1:37:14
  green thing that the actor would pull out of his pants to be the
• 1:37:18
  stand-in penis and then some poor animator somewhere in
• 1:37:22
  America was going to animate the guy whizzing.
• 1:37:29
  So, like, you know, this is how weird the movie industry is,
• 1:37:32
  right. Like it took 5 de probably seven
• 1:37:36
  days of human. To figure out the action of a
• 1:37:41
  man, taking a piss in a movie and like, it wasn't just me like
• 1:37:47
  other people are on their phones.
• 1:37:48
  Doing this like think about all of human evolution led to this
• 1:37:52
  moment, you know. Like that's how dumb the film
• 1:37:54
  industry is. I love it.
• 1:38:00
  I thought I don't know how to follow that up.
• 1:38:03
  Yeah, you got me. I get it like to see it.
• 1:38:11
  As you said, that's just the craziness of the film industry,
• 1:38:14
  but it kind of shows like I guess how things have changed
• 1:38:18
  because I imagine like 20 30 years ago.
• 1:38:20
  It would probably would have just been really
• 1:38:22
  straightforward. Whereas now it's like you got to
• 1:38:24
  think of like so many different factors and one of this stuff Oh
• 1:38:29
  yeah. One of the complaints I hear
• 1:38:34
  from older. Filmmakers is like the digital
• 1:38:38
  age of making movies is great. Anybody who tells you shooting
• 1:38:41
  film is better is wrong, just those people.
• 1:38:45
  It looks cool. If you want to do it great.
• 1:38:49
  The only reason why shooting film is better is because you
• 1:38:51
  have to plan more. So, like, the guys that I work
• 1:38:54
  with that, we're making movies like 30 years ago, they talked
• 1:38:56
  about how when you Left the stage to go shoot on location
• 1:39:01
  for a movie like the script and change.
• 1:39:04
  Right? And if there was there, if there
• 1:39:05
  were changes, it was on set, it wasn't like full rewrites the
• 1:39:09
  day before. I mean, they this did happen and
• 1:39:11
  happens on Plenty of movies, but for the most part, you don't
• 1:39:15
  want that happen. Because getting information to
• 1:39:18
  crew is like a huge thing. Like that's an entire department
• 1:39:22
  of people just making sure everybody's on the same page and
• 1:39:25
  now, because it can just be sent straight to your phone like,
• 1:39:28
  Stuff changes. I dine you know I worked on the
• 1:39:32
  pipe as I set dresser and we watched this happen all the time
• 1:39:35
  I was working on location at the hotel, making the hotel look
• 1:39:39
  like an embassy. We had spent 12 hours just
• 1:39:43
  busting our asses, you know, getting this entire floor of a
• 1:39:46
  hotel ready so that they could, you know, walk into rooms and
• 1:39:49
  everything would be correct and great.
• 1:39:51
  And we get to our 12. We're all like, yes, we did it
• 1:39:54
  in time and like, it was like the last lampshade went on the
• 1:39:58
  All a like done, perfect. And then just like the call came
• 1:40:02
  in there. Like seeing a lot of it's been
• 1:40:04
  cancelled. I was just like no, no, I'll
• 1:40:08
  come on now with like but that's how it happens.
• 1:40:12
  Now yeah kids you know you're talking with Robert Pattinson
• 1:40:16
  you know Robert he got paid for that day like he was told, you
• 1:40:20
  know, he's been getting me wrong.
• 1:40:22
  I mean the reason I brought up one thing, I didn't tell you as
• 1:40:24
  well as that when we were doing that.
• 1:40:30
  So okay, I'll explain. So I could actually talk about
• 1:40:32
  it now. So in the tenant movie when you
• 1:40:34
  when you see the very beginning of it, there's a big scene where
• 1:40:37
  there's like 4,000 people in like an Amphitheatre and you've
• 1:40:42
  got a bunch of I was like a uh sure I guess and then you've got
• 1:40:47
  SWAT guys and terrorists basically.
• 1:40:49
  So we were sort of affectionately referred to as
• 1:40:52
  like specialist extras and then there was drained General
• 1:40:55
  audience which is the people in the main Amphitheater.
• 1:40:57
  And they were just. Yeah.
• 1:40:59
  They were just people off the street basically, like,
• 1:41:02
  legitimately just off the street because they just needed people
• 1:41:05
  in there. And some of them they gave
• 1:41:09
  civilian clothes. Some of them, they just came in
• 1:41:11
  whatever they were wearing, they didn't, you know, didn't really
• 1:41:13
  matter but the rest of us obviously had like these
• 1:41:16
  Specialists clothes that we had to wear every single day.
• 1:41:18
  So you know we had these full-on Usher uniforms that we were
• 1:41:22
  wearing in the middle of summer and I swear to God out of the
• 1:41:26
  two weeks for the main Scene, we did, Will main couple of scenes?
• 1:41:33
  I think we were probably used three days out of those. 14
• 1:41:38
  days, but we were there the whole time just sitting around
• 1:41:42
  doing nothing. Big, big movie, making is so
• 1:41:46
  crazy. I've only gotten to see it on
• 1:41:48
  one row in 1984 and everybody, you know, you know this and just
• 1:41:55
  for your listening audience, the bigger production is the more
• 1:42:00
  boring. It is all.
• 1:42:02
  That's just the Ruth because everything is planned so well.
• 1:42:06
  And there's so many contingencies that, you know, as
• 1:42:09
  you saw on antenna at you're probably the first time you saw
• 1:42:13
  like the you know, John the you know Miss Washington stunts,
• 1:42:19
  right? Of him like jumping through the
• 1:42:20
  winter, you probably like, whoa. And then it happens like 20 more
• 1:42:23
  times and you're just checking your phone.
• 1:42:24
  You're just like, was this going to be over?
• 1:42:26
  I think it's just action movies. You know?
• 1:42:28
  Like oh yeah it was if it was a movie where you're watching that
• 1:42:30
  I don't know. Michael Caine do a scene.
• 1:42:32
  With someone and you're watching it even, I would happily see
• 1:42:35
  that hundred times. Again, again, again, just to
• 1:42:37
  watch him act rather than see this bloody terrorist seen a
• 1:42:44
  hundred times, but I got so bored of it that scene that
• 1:42:47
  you're talking about. I legitimately saw that 100
• 1:42:49
  times and a lot of time we would just sit there in the
• 1:42:52
  Amphitheatre in the scenes in between because you could just
• 1:42:56
  sit there and do nothing because where we get, we can sit there
• 1:42:59
  and watch that or we can just sit in the halls and do nothing.
• 1:43:01
  So we would just sit there and watch And film it, and just put
• 1:43:04
  a huh. Since since you were there, did
• 1:43:07
  they have a video Village? Because I you you hear about
• 1:43:10
  Chris, Nolan sets, and you're like, there's no, there's no
• 1:43:13
  chairs anywhere, which has to be There's no chairs and it wasn't
• 1:43:18
  no chest. Oh my God, that guy's crazy.
• 1:43:20
  People have to be able to set. I mean, I don't want to win.
• 1:43:26
  Here's the, I don't want to show on the guide because the end of
• 1:43:29
  the day, I don't know how his mind works or like his approach
• 1:43:32
  to these things because it's become a bit of a meme at this
• 1:43:34
  point. All I can really say is that we
• 1:43:38
  were in this huge. Soviet era building.
• 1:43:45
  There are areas to sit, but that we were told we couldn't sit on
• 1:43:48
  them because they were like part of the set or whatever.
• 1:43:52
  And sometimes we would just fucking sit there anyway because
• 1:43:54
  oh yeah. Yeah.
• 1:43:55
  You know with their 16 at 16 hours a day but a lot of the
• 1:43:59
  time we were just sitting on cold floors or just you know
• 1:44:02
  wherever we could find somewhere to sit.
• 1:44:07
  Yeah, nothing. Nothing is provided like that
• 1:44:09
  and it's kind of crazy actually. Cuz I was more concerned about
• 1:44:12
  his crew because at least at the end of the day, like we got to
• 1:44:15
  go home whereas some of his crew.
• 1:44:17
  Like I remember there was this really lovely woman.
• 1:44:21
  I think she was like a costume designer or something.
• 1:44:24
  She's such a sweet woman and I remember one time she was
• 1:44:28
  sitting in this, like, local Cinema for like we were doing a
• 1:44:33
  scene Outdoors where they were just driving in the loop.
• 1:44:36
  Again, again, again again again and it was Outdoors, really
• 1:44:39
  sunny day, but in the beginning of Day.
• 1:44:41
  She was sitting there trying to get some sleep because she
• 1:44:45
  hadn't slept she'd been working 23 hours straight.
• 1:44:50
  Yeah. No that's not yeah and she told
• 1:44:53
  me that all this is common. This is standard.
• 1:44:54
  I'm like what is making a lot of money though.
• 1:45:01
  Once you get over 12 hours that's you get that nice double
• 1:45:04
  time. Hell yeah.
• 1:45:06
  But now costumers costumers get dragged right over the fire and
• 1:45:10
  also yeah you get good at kind of stealing naps.
• 1:45:14
  Yeah, that's why I kind of figured this know.
• 1:45:18
  I've I've fallen asleep on set in the middle of the tank, which
• 1:45:22
  is not good. Like I did that on House of
• 1:45:23
  Cards and I like had to catch myself before I fell like, right
• 1:45:26
  in the middle of a take, you know, definitely got evil eye.
• 1:45:31
  Kevin Spacey one since just are like, alright?
• 1:45:33
  I really yeah. I like when I was like all
• 1:45:35
  right, you know what somebody else?
• 1:45:36
  Come outside and yeah just found like a dark corner just But God,
• 1:45:45
  yeah, I see people tell you not to sit on sad.
• 1:45:48
  I will do it and he's like, dude, you shouldn't sit on
• 1:45:51
  Center like I'm trying to work in this industry for another 20
• 1:45:54
  years. Like these to work man.
• 1:45:57
  I completely agree with you on this like that.
• 1:45:59
  It's very easy to say this is what you should do and it's like
• 1:46:02
  yeah well this day should only last 10 hours but here we are 15
• 1:46:08
  16 hours later and it's not entered yet.
• 1:46:11
  You know so To sit down and actually that might partly
• 1:46:15
  that's kind of changing. It's not perfect with covid.
• 1:46:19
  They're trying to keep shooting Day shooting, time to 10 hours
• 1:46:23
  you know everybody wants to 10 hour day and becomes like a
• 1:46:27
  15-hour day. Well I don't think I've ever
• 1:46:29
  been on any even independent films.
• 1:46:32
  I've never been on a film set. Where is anything less than 12
• 1:46:37
  hours? Yeah.
• 1:46:40
  My best. Yeah, there are times where I
• 1:46:43
  think it was like man I could have been like a CPA or
• 1:46:46
  something. Yeah something else, what guy
• 1:46:51
  it's the passion though isn't it?
• 1:46:52
  Like I you know, like because I love obviously acting and even
• 1:46:57
  those really crazy days like when I compare my experiences on
• 1:47:00
  tenets, like that was interesting for the first week
• 1:47:03
  and then afterwards the novelty wore off.
• 1:47:05
  And as I do know what being an actress sucks.
• 1:47:07
  I don't know why people do this. Aw, Then to get some initial
• 1:47:10
  experience Because unless you're doing something really cool,
• 1:47:14
  like, I don't know, maybe you're a stormtrooper in Star Wars or
• 1:47:17
  something. I don't.
• 1:47:18
  I don't really see the appeal of just constantly having to go
• 1:47:21
  back and forth and back and forth and not actually getting
• 1:47:24
  to act or anything. Whereas everyone else, you know
• 1:47:29
  who's involved with the film actors, props, people
• 1:47:33
  cinematographers, whoever like they're doing stuff and it's
• 1:47:36
  constantly different. You know what I mean?
• 1:47:38
  And as far as changing And like, I get why people are passionate
• 1:47:42
  about it. Because for me, I'm very
• 1:47:44
  creative and Hands-On. So, if I'm working on a piece, I
• 1:47:47
  like to talk loads to the director, the lighting guy, the
• 1:47:50
  film, I like to just ask everyone for feedback and be
• 1:47:53
  like, yeah, could we do this from try this?
• 1:47:55
  You know, like, I love that that creative process is as
• 1:47:59
  fascinating and that, that to me Makes it makes sense as to why
• 1:48:04
  everyone's willing to be there for so long because you just,
• 1:48:08
  you know that, like, all that effort is going to go into that
• 1:48:11
  final end product and it's going to turn out really good, you
• 1:48:13
  know. Yeah, well, you know, the one
• 1:48:18
  thing there's so many thankless jobs, even being a prop guy is
• 1:48:24
  boring sometimes on Philomena. I held a cell phone most of the
• 1:48:28
  time for like Steve Coogan who like I love it, I want Like,
• 1:48:32
  dude, I love you and like, you can't do that news.
• 1:48:34
  You can two people into like I think you're so funny, man.
• 1:48:37
  Like you can can't do that. But what was he like, white,
• 1:48:42
  just worries. Just he's nice.
• 1:48:43
  He's just doing his job. For the most part.
• 1:48:45
  A lot of actors aren't they won't like engaged with you
• 1:48:49
  which I get like, would you mean?
• 1:48:51
  Yeah, well, because a lot of them will be kind of in their
• 1:48:55
  own world because, okay, be if they're a little bit more method
• 1:48:57
  like let them do their own thing.
• 1:48:59
  Yeah. But I mean, this one thing if
• 1:49:00
  your patch, Or Bateman and we're about to do some intense scene
• 1:49:04
  and Batman, but if you're just standing there, waiting for the
• 1:49:07
  scene to start, I mean, come on some, some of them are friendly
• 1:49:10
  but for the most part, like never mean, I can just get it
• 1:49:14
  personally. Like I can only talk to so many
• 1:49:16
  people during a day and then that certain, you know, and then
• 1:49:20
  eventually you're just like don't I don't want to look
• 1:49:22
  anybody else in the eyes, please don't look me in the eye and,
• 1:49:27
  you know, I can understand that for the most part.
• 1:49:31
  Yeah. Stackers would be friendly and
• 1:49:34
  joke around with them and, and try and keep things light.
• 1:49:39
  I think for me the biggest thing is like, it's one thing that you
• 1:49:43
  make a very good point. Yeah, I get that you don't want
• 1:49:45
  to have like an extensive conversations when you're when
• 1:49:47
  you're working. Like you want to focus?
• 1:49:49
  Get the job done. Go home, right?
• 1:49:51
  But here's the thing with a lot of actors and this is the
• 1:49:54
  stories that we hear is like they lose it and a lot of the
• 1:49:59
  time it's unjustifiable e. So I mean there are some
• 1:50:04
  exceptions it depends on the scenario.
• 1:50:06
  Like I remember hearing some Story one time about Tripp
• 1:50:09
  Patrick Bateman like losing a some lighting guy and when I
• 1:50:12
  learned the context of that it was like I know it makes sense
• 1:50:16
  like now. It's okay.
• 1:50:17
  But in other words it's a love that clip.
• 1:50:20
  Yeah. If I die hearing that because
• 1:50:25
  I've been that guy not the derivative using it.
• 1:50:27
  I've been the guy that like, you know, right in the middle of
• 1:50:30
  something like moved Like something like I had my phone go
• 1:50:34
  off in the middle of the take and just like wanted to blow my
• 1:50:37
  brains out. What's the worst thing that
• 1:50:39
  happened and what was the outcome?
• 1:50:40
  It was definitely like right during and like House of Cards.
• 1:50:45
  Very dramatic scene and my phone just goes like, no, I can't.
• 1:50:49
  I don't even like text message noise and like that's such a,
• 1:50:57
  you know, that's a big, big No-No?
• 1:51:01
  Yeah, like II. I don't even have my phone off,
• 1:51:03
  like, in my normal like him during in my normal life, like,
• 1:51:06
  my phone is on silent. Yeah, I was gonna say but what
• 1:51:08
  gives men, like no one's had their phone on loudspeaker,
• 1:51:12
  since, like the Thai now. Oh my god.
• 1:51:14
  I didn't even know. I was on, I've never had
• 1:51:17
  anything like devastating. It's stuff that I've, I've
• 1:51:22
  watched a piece of asset fall and almost hit an actor who
• 1:51:27
  should, and that was very scary. And like, right afterwards.
• 1:51:32
  You p.m. like dropped like like a bowl lot like within distance
• 1:51:37
  of the set because everybody's like, holy shit piece of the set
• 1:51:40
  just fall and then are you p.m. like had a heart attack like
• 1:51:43
  separately like on set? Yeah.
• 1:51:47
  Yeah, that was, that was pretty nuts.
• 1:51:50
  I've man, have I done anything like truly bun?
• 1:51:54
  Hit boneheaded. Not like I know I haven't had
• 1:52:01
  anything like terrible happen because I'm if I did I wouldn't
• 1:52:04
  be any industry anymore. but, I should just happens.
• 1:52:12
  It's like any industry. We're just so busy, just so
• 1:52:15
  happened to play pretend for a living.
• 1:52:18
  What would you say? So, the best and the worst
• 1:52:21
  aspects of working on movies and TV shows.
• 1:52:26
  Like best best aspects, you know, it's fun.
• 1:52:30
  I like the people I work with I'm able to prank the people.
• 1:52:34
  I work with like the The amount. The the like the freedom that we
• 1:52:39
  have of just like, you know, it's not a normal office job
• 1:52:43
  where you kind of have to like me.
• 1:52:44
  And I have the same boss and you can't talk back to them.
• 1:52:46
  If you got that, you can talk back to your film bosses but
• 1:52:49
  like there's a little bit more freedom of being able to express
• 1:52:54
  your opinions. On, you know, with some bosses
• 1:52:57
  I've had bosses that are like you're going to do it my way or
• 1:52:59
  your guns. All right, cool, it's not.
• 1:53:01
  Okay, I like learning new things.
• 1:53:06
  And just the, you know, the very, the varied experience of
• 1:53:10
  working on movies, you know, I've worked on, you know, I've
• 1:53:14
  been able to step into a fake Oval Office, which is pretty
• 1:53:17
  cool. Like, it's like, oh, I'm in the
• 1:53:18
  Oval Office and then, you know, I've been on, you know, I did
• 1:53:21
  The Purge movie. So like then it's like a post
• 1:53:24
  apocalypse thing where, you know, there's like a huge fake
• 1:53:28
  axe, that's dangling and is covered in blood and they're
• 1:53:31
  fake dead people everywhere. And you know, graffiti and trash
• 1:53:35
  cans on fire and That's that's cool.
• 1:53:37
  And you know I ruined a pair of Chucks that way because I got
• 1:53:40
  blood all over them. I had my favorite pair of yellow
• 1:53:43
  trucks on just like just spattered with fake blood and
• 1:53:49
  and then also working on typically made with like in the
• 1:53:52
  industry, fake blood is. There's a million different
• 1:53:58
  types. There's like, if you see the
• 1:54:00
  fake blood on an object, that's like the sort of jelly stuff.
• 1:54:02
  So it kind of it's sticky and it doesn't like fling, like wet
• 1:54:07
  blood. You know, everybody, everybody
• 1:54:10
  has like their own recipe for fake blood.
• 1:54:12
  Usually have like corn syrup so it's got that like, syrupy
• 1:54:16
  gooeyness. Hmm, I knew one person.
• 1:54:19
  That was like my secret to good. Fake blood soy sauce.
• 1:54:23
  I'm just like, why, like you don't need that.
• 1:54:26
  But there's some that's made with like dish detergent now.
• 1:54:30
  But what gets the goofiness and then I'll kind of like washout,
• 1:54:32
  but it still is dying it. So there's everybody has their
• 1:54:36
  own recipe and you just, you get, we're going to kids, right?
• 1:54:45
  Like there's nothing better than like playing pretend all day and
• 1:54:50
  like, you know you get to change and that's the big thing for me
• 1:54:55
  like But it's different every day and also ends, you know you
• 1:55:01
  kind of disappear on projects. But then you know you're sitting
• 1:55:05
  on a pile of money and you kind of get to chill out most people
• 1:55:09
  in the industry you know a lot of people industry you get into
• 1:55:12
  the movie industry because you love movies and you want to make
• 1:55:16
  movies and there's also a lot of people that didn't go to film
• 1:55:19
  school and just kind of fell into the industry and those
• 1:55:21
  people are awesome too. Like you get to meet people from
• 1:55:25
  just all different backgrounds. is, and You know, I know that
• 1:55:30
  I've had like a wider life experience for it and that's
• 1:55:37
  something I like, I mean, the detriment is that, it kills your
• 1:55:40
  social life like a murderer, is it?
• 1:55:41
  It murders it with knives, like, Cesar gets murdered.
• 1:55:45
  Like it's there's no coming back.
• 1:55:47
  Like you're you go to work on a TV show.
• 1:55:50
  You don't have a life during the work week days and you know if
• 1:55:54
  you get a you know we call them fatter days or if like you
• 1:55:58
  Friday's you know, your Working a 15-hour day at the end of the
• 1:56:01
  week so then you lose your Saturday and then you're just on
• 1:56:04
  Sunday. You're staring into space.
• 1:56:06
  You know, wondering what you're doing with your life, but And it
• 1:56:11
  can be bad. You know there are movie sets
• 1:56:14
  that are not fun to work on you know personally food days on
• 1:56:18
  set. Anytime you see a dinner scene
• 1:56:21
  being filmed there's a prop guy cursing his agus existence
• 1:56:24
  behind the wall because like because he doesn't get to eat
• 1:56:28
  you. Well I mean no no you get to
• 1:56:30
  like much on food but it's not a nightmare.
• 1:56:32
  You have to keep it warm and then you had to reset the plates
• 1:56:34
  and you never get enough time to reset night and it's you're
• 1:56:39
  flying and you're trying to do this, you Keep continuity, but
• 1:56:41
  if they're changing the scene, the middle of it.
• 1:56:44
  You've no idea what's going on anymore.
• 1:56:46
  Everybody hates you, you hate yourself.
• 1:56:49
  The actors hate that they have to eat no actor like seating on
• 1:56:52
  set. Like what's not?
• 1:56:55
  What's what in case they get messy or something?
• 1:56:57
  Or just, let me just live it. When's the last time you sat
• 1:57:02
  down for three hours and eight lukewarm food and pretended,
• 1:57:07
  like you were having a good time like nobody likes them.
• 1:57:10
  And I like how sometimes it's ridiculous.
• 1:57:12
  Like, if someone picks up like a hot mug of coffee and then like
• 1:57:17
  they just cook. You take a sip and it's like no
• 1:57:19
  one ever. Does that in real life?
• 1:57:20
  You never did pick up a coffee cup like this, he's not drinking
• 1:57:23
  straight away, and there's just like, there's so much stuff like
• 1:57:26
  that, and You know, when it's not fun.
• 1:57:31
  Oh my God, it is not fun. Like in the rain in the snow.
• 1:57:35
  Oh my God, working in the cold, I can work in heat on good Lord
• 1:57:39
  bird. We had days and first day I had
• 1:57:42
  on House of Cards, 105 degrees. I saw an extra faint in front of
• 1:57:46
  me while. I thought it was that somebody
• 1:57:49
  was getting shot as a part of the scene.
• 1:57:51
  I was like, oh, wow, that person's really dedicating it on
• 1:57:53
  this rehearsal, but I heard somebody else going matak.
• 1:57:58
  Yeah yeah and I you know I've worked in in I've worked in
• 1:58:05
  110-degree heat. I've worked in in 20 degrees
• 1:58:09
  outside and for like 12 hours outside, that's a bummer.
• 1:58:14
  Yeah. but, I don't know. I love it.
• 1:58:21
  I guess sometimes as we draw things to a close for today, do
• 1:58:27
  you have sort of any upcoming projects that we haven't heard
• 1:58:30
  about already or Germany, final thoughts that you'd like to
• 1:58:33
  share with us? And really, the only upcoming
• 1:58:38
  Beyond right, the project right now is as PR, you know,
• 1:58:43
  superhuman public radio and I check it out.
• 1:58:46
  It is easily the biggest project I've ever done.
• 1:58:50
  I'm very proud of it. I'm also proud of Max's work on
• 1:58:54
  the project too. And is it already out to come?
• 1:58:58
  We can we share? There are three episodes out
• 1:59:01
  right now. We it's a 12-episode any
• 1:59:04
  anywhere where podcasts can be found but our main site is on
• 1:59:10
  anchor but we've got you know, if you look at her Twitter feed
• 1:59:14
  their in universe, so there's A lot of like kind of fun Easter
• 1:59:20
  eggs that I've actually put in there at.
• 1:59:21
  There's hidden things within the series that are like fun that
• 1:59:25
  audience can find a couple of people have found them which is
• 1:59:28
  very neat to interact with folks like that and beyond that final
• 1:59:34
  thoughts, you know? Just keep creating man.
• 1:59:40
  Like, even me and me and Mac. So we joked with each other.
• 1:59:45
  I'm just like, you know, where we've spent Months on this
• 1:59:49
  project like truly it was it's almost a full-time job and you
• 1:59:54
  know, We've joked from the beginning.
• 1:59:55
  Like we're just going to have the most dedicated audience of
• 1:59:57
  like 200 people. Unlike long be alone, that's
• 2:00:01
  Rockets right now and but I mean everybody's liked it so far and
• 2:00:07
  if you're not creating stuff yourself, why are you doing it?
• 2:00:11
  You know. Degree mole.
• 2:00:14
  Yeah, so much. Yeah.
• 2:00:15
  I just I just want to say I'm a massive massive, thank you for
• 2:00:18
  agreeing to be on the show. It's been great.
• 2:00:21
  I could quiz you all day if I'm on it.
• 2:00:23
  Yeah, I just thanks for having me.
• 2:00:26
  This has been a lot of fun. It's been an absolute pleasure
• 2:00:28
  and I do hope everyone this thing ever on YouTube.
• 2:00:31
  Spotify up a podcast where ever. You listen to the Christian.
• 2:00:34
  We podcast that you have been enjoying it and you enjoyed this
• 2:00:37
  particular interview. Let me know where your listing
• 2:00:39
  actually because I would like to know where the Georgie of the
• 2:00:43
  audience are listening. Do you enjoy the video podcasts
• 2:00:45
  more? Do you enjoy just listening?
• 2:00:47
  Let me know. Let me know.
• 2:00:49
  Future guests. You'd like to see on the show or
• 2:00:51
  future topics you'd like to hear &.
• 2:00:54
  Yeah, just be vocal people. Be vocal.
• 2:00:56
  And yeah. Thank you very much for
• 2:00:58
  listening. And until next time.
• 2:01:00
  Peace out. One love.
• 2:01:01
  I'll see you in the next one.