Latest / Beautifully Complex / 324: How to Step Back Without Letting Go, with Kristin Lombardi, MA & Christine Drew, Ph.D.

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324: How to Step Back Without Letting Go, with Kristin Lombardi, MA & Christine Drew, Ph.D. · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: We talk about the difference between doing it for them
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: and teaching, because you might have to hand over hand
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: prompt and it might feel like.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm doing this for them.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: But if it's a handover hand prompt and you're showing
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: them that muscle memory and what they need to do,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: then it's teaching and you can feed it. If you're
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: just doing it for them, it's not a matter of feeding.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: You haven't taught that anything.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: if you want more support, join our free community at
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Hi, everybody, Welcome back
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: to Beautifully Complex. I am so excited today to have
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Kristin Lombardi and Christine Drew, the authors of Spectrum of Independence,
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: here with us to talk about all things neudivergence and independence,
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: which as a parent I have certainly struggled with, and
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: I think so many of our parents listening struggle with
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: how much do we help, when do we pull back,
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: what's enabling, what's empowering? Right, all of these sort of
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: difficult balances for parents to strike. So I'm hoping that
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: we'll be able to give some insights and some strategies
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: here to really help to clarify some of that for
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: our listeners. Will you all start though, let everybody know
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: who you are and what you do.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: My name's Kristin Lombardi. I am a BCBA. I started
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: my career really with early intervention and then added the
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: preschool services and then school age services. I have a
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: private practice now where I work with kids that range
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: in age, you know, three to the early twenties. And
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: along the way, I learned about inclusive higher education and
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: that has really shifted my practice to help kids prepare
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: for higher levels of independence as they get older, whether
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: it's to attend traditional college, whether to attend inclusive higher ide,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: or whether it's to not go that route, but to
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: be able to hold down a job you know and
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: live as independently as possible.
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: And I am doctor Christine Drew, so I have my
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: PhD in special education. I'm also a board certified behavior
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: analyst or a BCBA D doctoral level, and I started
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: in middle school running a behavior program. So I always
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: say that I have strong opinions about deodorant and that
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: I come by them honestly. And so I worked in
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: public school for five years while getting my master's in
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: ABA in special ed, and then got my PhD in
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: special education, started working at Auburn University, and that's where
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: I first encountered inclusive higher education. I provide sexuality and
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: relationship education for people with intellectual disability on college campuses,
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: which is pretty niche, pretty niche area, And like Kristin,
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: I saw this as a new opportunity for independence for
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: people with intellectual disability that I was not aware of.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: And we started having conversations about what parents need, how
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: they can support their young adults, will they come to college,
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: and then that letting go peace and having that independence
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: for the first time, and for a lot of parents
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: not even realizing this was an option until their child
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: was eighteen twenty, and they're in these patterns of helping, helping, helping,
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: and college when they live on campus you can't and
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: how that transition is really difficult for both parents and
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: young adults.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's kind of where I wanted to start
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: with this quote from you all with the best of
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: intentions spent decades over helping people with developmental disabilities, which
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: created a culture of dependence. I think that as a
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: parent of a nerd vergent kid myself, and you know,
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: I'm very protective, like we already have the mother instinct,
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: but then you add struggles and challenges and it seems
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: to amplify that over protectiveness that I personally have really
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: struggled with. Where's the balance? And for a long time
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: I was far too overprotective. I certainly would say I
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: was enabling at times, I did too much for my
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: kid until or past the age that I should have, Right,
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: And so how do we help parents find that balance
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: and that point, like that pivot point between am I enabling?
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: Am I doing too much? Or am I helping them
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: with that britt and resilience that they need to be
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: able to be independent to get those skills to keep going. Right.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: I know there's a very long answer to that, right,
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: But where do you want to start?
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I want to say is that
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: idea actually came from the man who wrote our forward,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Peter Gerhart. He he did such a fantastic job with
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: the forward, sort of explaining this is where we came
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: from and then this is why we're here and where
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: we need to go from here. So that line is
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: fantastic and it came directly out of what he created
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: for us for the forward. I think a part of
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: the answer to your question is that we have two
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: chapters in the beginning that talk about parent readiness and
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: child readiness. So the child readiness chapter specifically talks about
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: different safety skills, right, and so you're right, there's this
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: very fine line between where do we back off and
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: where should we be involved, and that chapter goes through
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: you know, if your child is engaging in certain behaviors
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: like Piko was a big one. Yeah, give you know
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: that your kids going to ingest things that are not safe. No,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: you should not leave them alone in the bathroom to
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: see how showering goes like, that's just not safe. And
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: then it's not that you're enabling them by being there.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: You're there for safety reasons obviously, if you have children who,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: for example, if there's like paralysis involved, again, if they
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: can't physically do something, you being there is not enabling.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: You need to be there to help.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: But then we're also like, if you've cleared all of
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: these things, then maybe your help is more on the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: enabling side, right, And here's a way to fade yourself effectively.
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: M M yeah, that makes sense and not saying you know,
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: good luck, kid, you're on your own right, right, you know,
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: because I think you know the college thing I was
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: telling you about where they come and we say by parents,
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: that's the ripping the band aid method that is, that
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: is cold turkey, and our book rather than going that route,
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: walks parents through a process of slow fading. So saying
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: to yourself, first how much support does my child actually
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: need versus how much am I just stepping in without
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: giving them time to do it themselves? And then also
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: what do I need to do to back myself out
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: slowly over time? Because the less you do, the more
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: your child has to do. And so it's this slow
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: trade of responsibility from one hundred percent parent, zero percent
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: child to fifty to fifty to seventy five, you know,
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: and that way because again you are asking your child
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: to do harder things than they've been expected to do before.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: And again that band aid ripping does not teach a skill,
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: So we're asking you to teach and then reduce support
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: and then that leads to independence. The other thing I
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: wanted to say is that we are deeply empathetic with
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: parent struggles with this. You know, we talk in the
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: book about how typically developing children they go through that
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: I do it, I do it age where they push
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: you away and they say no, I do it, and
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: they'll shut the bathroom door and they'll you know, they
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: shove you out and they tell you very clearly that
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: they're going to do it themselves. And children with disabilities
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: may or may not hit that phase as well, but
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: they may hit it much later. They may not be
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: able to have it because again we talked about the
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: physical needs, the safety needs. You know, you're as a
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: parent stress and anxiety about you know, you have a
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: child with a seeder disorder, leaving them alone in the
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: bathroom can feel very scary. And so again there's we
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: are deeply empathetic to that. There's no shaming in the book.
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: There's no I don't think we even use the word
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: enabling in the book, you know, but it is this
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: idea that we see why these things happen. It is
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: logical that we have ended up where we are. We
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: focus less on that no blame, but rather okay, great,
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: now we know where we are, perfect, let's move forward.
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: And so that's something that parents can expect from the
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: book is no blame, but some hard truths about the statistics.
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: You know, our first chapter is a bunch of vignettes
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: that may feel familiar because they're based on real situations
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: that Kristin and I have dealt with as practitioners, and
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: then the stats that go with it. Right, So, unemployment
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: is very high in this population, independent living is very low,
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: social connections are very low. So we do kind of
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: start with the facts humanized and before we move into
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: and here's what we're going to do about it to
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: move forward.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we do also talk about how to accommodate your child. So,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: for example, say they have fine motor issues and getting
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: the toothpaste this is always a big one. Getting the
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: toothpaste out of the tube, right, you teach to a point,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: but if they can't get that, then you get the
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: automatic toothpaste dispenser that they just have to hold their
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: toothbrush under, right. And now if that eliminates you from
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: needing to be in the bathroom, you're out and now
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: they can be independent. So it's not always just you
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: have to learn this skill. Sometimes it's a matter of
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: is there a way to make this skill easier for
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: you while still accomplishing the same goal. Right, We're still
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: brushing our teeth at the end of the day. It's
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: not like we're going to skip that.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, my kid has dysgraphia, and so using technology
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: is just part of his life. Right. We can't change
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: the dysgraphia. We've done many years of OT and all
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: the things, and it's just part of his brain wiring,
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: and so we find other ways to be successful despite that. Right.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: And you're talking about something that I always teach parents too,
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: which is to set up strategies where you can scaffold
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: the support, but you can fade yourself out of the middle. Right,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: So you might still need to help your kid get
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: the toothpaste on the toothbrush, even with the automatic dispenser,
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: but at some point they're going to be able to
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: do that on their own, and you can remove yourself
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: from that where. I think instinctually, as parents, we just go, Okay,
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: what do I need to do? Right? You know, we
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: don't think about how do I structure this so that
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: at some point I don't have to be part of
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: this equation to have success in the end.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, And we talk about the difference between doing it
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: for them and teaching, because you might have to hand
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: over hand prompt and it might feel like, oh, I'm
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: doing this for them. But if it's a handover hand
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: prompt and you're showing them that the muscle memory and
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: what they need to do, then it's teaching and you
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: can feed it. If you're just doing it for them,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: it's not a matter of feeding.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: You haven't taught them anything exactly.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: We also talk a lot about thinking can something go
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: with them, So an automatic toothpaste dispenser, the things that
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: they have in every hotel I've been in in the
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: last two years, those little push button attached to the wall,
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: soap and shampoo dispensers that can go with you to college,
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: that can go with you to your own apartment. Mom
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: and Dad's voice in your ear cannot necessarily go from
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: place to place with you. And then the other thing
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: we talk about is again very logical. Toothbrushing happens in
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: the morning before school, when everyone is stressed to the
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: max and just trying to make sure they get on
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: the bus or to the bus stop or whatever, or
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: right before bed, when everyone is dragging themselves to the
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: finish line. And so it becomes again very tempting and
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: very logical to just be like, okay, to save the morning.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: I'm going to put the toothpaste on the toothbrush for
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: you to save the morning. And so we do things
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: like recommending that if a routine is happening at a
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: very stressful time or a rough time of day, move
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: it to another time right, start working on it on
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: the weekends when there isn't this time pressure, you know,
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: figuring out ways to work on it to where you
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: are not teaching when you are stressed, when there is
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: a time crunch, When when when we want to stack
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: the deck in your favor and in your child's favor.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: And so we walk parents through strategies some ideas of
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: how to do that.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: I love the phrase save of the morning. I've lived
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: that so many times I can't count.
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: Right, And again, you know a lot of that. We
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: had some vignettes where they have multiple kids in the
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: family and balancing the needs of the different kids, and
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: that is something that again we are deeply empathetic too.
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: And I think it's hopefully parents will find we had
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: parent readers who helped us along the way, and hopefully
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: they find the examples meaningful and they can connect with them.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: You know, again, we've seen these situations and we tried
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: to make sure that these are real life things that
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: we're presenting. We're not pie in the sky. So you know,
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: you wake up at six in the morning perfectly refreshed
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: and rested, You have twenty minutes of meditation and then
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: a cup of coffee, and then you wake your child.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: At one point, we wanted the subtitle to be Calm
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Mornings and Peaceful Evenings because so much of what we
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: work on in this book has to do with like
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: the morning routine and the evening routine.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: They're such a struggle, right, and.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Nobody want No parent wants to start their day as
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: a struggle and send their kid off to school that
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: way out of ten right, and nobody wants to end
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: their day like that either. It's one of the most
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: common things I hear from parents is we really just
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: want a peaceful, like half an hour to hang out
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: with our kid before they go to bed. Yeah, and
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: so when everything's a battle to get ready for bed.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Nobody gets that.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: It's not a win for anybody at that point, right,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: you know, our mornings used to be so stressful that
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: one day I literally backed into the side of my
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: husband's car in our driveway leaving for school because my
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: brain was just gone by that point. It was frid
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: He had just started a different work routine where he
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: was home on Fridays, and I just backed out like
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: I always do because I had no mental clarity anymore,
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: went right into the side of it. So it's a
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: real thing. It's a real thing, and it's so hard
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: for us and our kids for the rest of the day,
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: Like this is coloring the entire day when things are
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: so hard in the mornings, and it's not what anybody wants.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: If you've been listening for a while, you're familiar with
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: my back to School Prep Week, where I sat neurodivergent
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: kids and their families up for success right when the
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: school year starts. There's another podcast that will help you
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: navigate the rest of the school year. It's called Opportunity Gap,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: and it's all about special education. Let's be real. All
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: those acronyms alone. I EP five oh four FBA BP
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: can be overwhelming. All you want is for your kid
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: to have the opportunity for success. Right. You'll hear from
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: special educators, child psychologists, and other learning experts who know
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: their stuff and give you realistic advocacy tools. I listened
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: to Opportunity Gap and I was blown away. Julian Savedra
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: and his guests break it down in simple terms, highlight
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: where to focus your energy, and give you simple steps
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: to advocate efficiently. So if you've ever walked out of
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: a school meeting wondering what just happened, go search for
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: Opportunity Gap in your podcast app. That's Opportunity Gap. How
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: do we figure out like when when is it time
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: to start teaching independent skills? I don't think there's an age,
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: especially when we're talking about developmental disabilities, right, So how
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: does a parent figure out for their specific individual kid,
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: when should I start working on some of these skills
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: that they're gonna need later.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: We didn't put specific ages in the book just for
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: like what you said, because there's devopmental disabilities and if
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: somebody maybe could have started earlier but they didn't, that's okay,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: so you start now. It's not like you missed the window.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: I would say most of the stuff that's in here
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: depending on the kid, you know, realistically, like a three
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: year old is not going to shower themselves and brush
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: their teeth themselves. They're three, They're going to need more assistance.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: You're not really fading yourself, you know, maybe five six
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: the ideas in the book though, and how to fade
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: your voice so that you're nagging and asking them to
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: do things sixteen times. Like really, even for the younger parents,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: it's good for them to read that, Like Christine said,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: that first chapter that talks about all the stats and
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: like this is where this ends up if you're not
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: encouraging the independence at home. I think the earlier parent
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: reads that on some level the better right that Okay,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: this is what we have coming up. This is what
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: we should be working on for sure. And then a
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: lot of it is so personalized depending on the child.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: But that is sort of where those early chapters come in.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Does your child have these prerec skills, do they meet
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: the safety requirements? And then you as a parent, are
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: you ready? You know, are you we talk about in
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: the book, like if your house is under construction and
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: you just had your third kid, This is not the
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: time to start this right now, Like, let yourself get
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: settled and then and then take a look at it.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: If it's a big transition time like we're you know,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: summer's ending in two weeks and then we're starting school,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: Like maybe you want to start it when school starts.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Maybe want to get settled into school. But these are
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: all things to think about, both for your child and
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: for yourself as a parent, as a family. Is this
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: the right time versus that there's like a herd and fast,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: like at seven years old, you should be doing this.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: Well, and the other thing we talk about in thinking
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: about the college experience, so most inclusive higher ed programs
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: will admit people until they're twenty four. And so if
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: you think about their coming to college and maybe their
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: parent has been doing things for them for twenty four years,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: that's eighteen years of missed opportunities, right, if we're talking
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: about toothbrushing, that's twice a day times eighteen years. Yeah,
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: and so it's these opportunities that go by, you know,
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: what is it? The days are long and the years
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: are short. So you know, these parents are they're on autopilot.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: They are you know, busy dealing with the school, is
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: dealing with the speech therapist, dealing with dealing, dealing, dealing, dealing,
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: and I think these things kind of get kicked further
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: and further down. And again, I teach sex ed, so
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: that's another one that gets just kind of kicked all
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: the way down the road until the last second, for sure.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: And so in terms of when to start, it's thinking
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: about one would typically developing child be expected to do
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: these things, and maybe we start, maybe it takes them
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: longer to get independent. That's totally fine, but they have
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: these opportunities to practice, and every year that you don't,
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: that's a year's worth of missed opportunities.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I you know, one thing that
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: I learned early on was to just be really intentional
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: about either being transparent with processes that I was going
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: through or with not just doing it myself because it
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: was easier and it saved me time because I'm very
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: type A and I'm like, get it done right. The
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: shoes are the kitchen floor, Okay, I'm going to go
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: put them away. That's so much easier than calling my
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: kid in calling his attention to the fact that the
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: shoes are in the kitchen, and shoes probably don't go
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: in the kitchen, and what might happen if mom trips
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: over the shoes and where do they get? Right, Like,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: there's so much that can have to go into that.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: But if we start earlier. There's just a lot in
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: our day to day as parents that we're not really
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: vocal about. We don't narrate all these things that go
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: on in our heads that if we were more open
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: and narrating that stuff, we're teaching skills by doing that
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: in front of our kids. And it's not necessarily adding
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: a lot of time to your day or anything like that. Right,
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: And so that was one thing that I learned to
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: do just to try to impart some like problem solving
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: skills or planning and organization skills. Right.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Christine was talking about the like the I do at fees.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: You know, I had raising a toddler right now, and
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: it is intense because he wants to do everything himself,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: and he wants to do it all by himself. And
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: it's more than just a queue. I mean, it literally
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: becomes a battle if I'm trying to do it for
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: him versus letting him do it himself. And he's not
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: even two and a half yet, and we're going through this.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: And when you don't have that, when you have a
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: child who was quite content for you to be putting
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: your shoes on for them at six years old, it's
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: a lot harder for you to be like, I shouldn't
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: be doing this anymore. And you have to train yourself
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to be like, well, I need to back off because
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: you're not getting that natural cue to back off.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so we're looking at development, right,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: and skills our kids have in safety issues, what is
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: a reasonable expectation? Right? Is there anything else that goes
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: into figuring out when to start stepping back a little
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: bit to foster that independence?
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's just this idea of what
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: would you're typically developing child be doing, and that is
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: something that you know, even things like chores, right, So
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: putting our plate in the sink, you know, because we
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: have a vignette for the fading where the dad is
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: thinking to himself, Wow, we had our older kids start
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: setting the table for dinner when they were six seven
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: years old, and our eleven year old who has autism
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: has never had to do that, and oh wow, we've
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: we're a little behind compared to what we our expectations were,
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: and so I think part of it is that and
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: not getting caught up in what they're ready for and
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: more thinking what do they need? So they need to
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: take care of their teeth. That is a skill that
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: they will take with them. And we, you know, we
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: talk a lot about these are skills that the school
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: can't address in the same way that parents can at home.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: And you know, school is teaching things that are important,
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: of course, but when was the last time you put
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: your name on your paper at the top next to
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: a little box that says name, right, versus the last
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: time you brush your teeth? Hopefully for everyone it was
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: this morning, yes, And so you know, it's this idea
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: of thinking when will they use it, when should they
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: be using it, and kind of not getting caught up
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: in that worry about when or you know, there's no
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: time like the present. And if they can pass these
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: safety things, of course you're going to check their work
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: on their teeth, right, just like you would with your
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: typically developing child, you know, or kids that come out
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: of the bathroom with wet hands but don't smell like soap,
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: and you're like, right, I know, something didn't go right
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: here right, So we're not saying hands off. You know,
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: it's totally your kid's responsibility. You're still going to be
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: checking and making sure and all that on making sure
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: they don't put two inches of toothpaste on the toothbrush.
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: But it is maybe less about this when they're ready
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: and more about it's time is time to be doing this.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: It's a really tricky question because I've had cases where
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I've said to a parent, like, why isn't your son
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: getting himself dressed in the morning, But I know that
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: your son is capable getting self dressed in the morning,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: and they'll come back and say to me, well, but
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I spoke to my friend who has a neurotypical kid
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: that's eight, and she's still dressing the kid. And I'm like, okay,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: your friend shouldn't.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: So I don't even.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Know where do you go with that your friends shouldn't
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: be ripped for a neurotypical eight year old, the kid
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: can is probably should be dressing herself. And that you
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: found that one person to try to compare to to
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: justify the fact that you're still dressing him at seven,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: even though I know we can dress himself. So I
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: think you do need to be careful because there's just
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: all types of situations out there right in all sorts
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: of different parenting beliefs right now. And some of it
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: is common sense. Some of it is looking at a
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: developmental checklist and saying, like knowing that, no, my child
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: at three years old shouldn't be able to zip up
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: their jacket if that's maybe a little bit of an
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: early skill for that age. You know, at six years old, yeah,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: my kids should be able to in theory take their
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: clothes off and put their clothes on, you know, to
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: get ready for school, depending again on motor planning issues.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I think the other thing that's.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Really important to keep in mind is that when you
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: have a child that has any sort of a delay,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: but especially if there's a motor delay, you need that
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: many more repetitions to learn the skill. So when Christine
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: was talking about, like, we have these eighteen years and
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: if you didn't do it, then you miss eighteen years.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: A neurotypical kid might learn. My son learned to put
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: his flip his jacket over in like two days. I
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, Like I've had students where
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: we've worked on that for months. You know, and so
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: the earlier you start, the more breathing room you have
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: to be able to teach these things and have the
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: time and not have this pressure of oh, my goodness,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: they're going to be graduating and we're trying to get
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: them into a program or whatever it is.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that pressure tends to make it a lot
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: harder to learn skills, right, yes.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: Yes, well, And we also talk about how these independent
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: living skills give young adults and adults the biggest menu
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: of opportunities. So, you know, if you can shower yourself,
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: your independent living options are wide open. Right. If you
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: can toilet, if you can shower. If you can't do
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: those things, then your options become more and more and
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: more and more limited. And so you know, we consider
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: these as kind of skills that open the door to
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: this wide world of opportunity. We also talk about how,
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: you know, there are families that make the choice together
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: with their young adult to live at home. That is
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: totally fine. There is a difference between making the choice right,
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: I'm going to stay home. I'm going to help my family.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: I'm a part of my community, you know, I'm part
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: of my church. All these things I work, I volunteer
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: versus I can't go anywhere else because I don't have
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: the skills. Yeah, and so it's this this piece of choice.
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: And when you don't have the independent living skills, then
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: your choices become incredibly limited to almost non existent. So
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: you know, that's kind of our idea of just opening
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: up as many choices as possible, and that then, you know,
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: leaves them open for inclusive higher ed living in an apartment,
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: living with roommates, living with family, living in a little
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: casita separate from the main house on their parents' property.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: There are a lot of arrangements, but again it's this
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: option of choice. If we can't shower, then we're pretty
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: limited and where we can go and what we can
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: do for living.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: I love thinking about choice too in this context because
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: we do want choice, and we want our kids to
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: have choices right. We want them to be able to
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: accomplish whatever they want to accomplish, and part of that
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: is teaching a lot of skills, but also knowing when
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: to step back right and let them at least lead
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: the way. I think so often we feel like our
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: job as a parent is to decide what the path
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: and the journey is going to look like and who
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: they are and all of these things, and like, no,
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: we're just there to sort of keep them on some
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: sort of path, right and teach the skills that are necessary.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: But it's about who they are and what they want
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: from their life, and this is giving them the opportunity
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: to have those choices. I love thinking about it that way.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: It's really really helpful. I think it's empowering.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Peter talks about the forward about how he has this
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: very unique way of doing his laundry, and he said,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: nobly does laundry like this, but because I am responsible
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: for my own laundry, I have the freedom to do
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: it this way. So not only does the independence help
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: of all the things that Christine just said, but also
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: it does it increases somebody, a person's freedom, you know,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: to make the decisions for themselves.
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: Maybe you want to.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Wash your feet before you wash, you know, your back.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: When you're in control of that, you get to make
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: that decision.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I know. There's so much more to talk
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: about here, and I hope that everyone listening will pick
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: up spectrum of independence and read through it and be
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: helped along this process. They'll learn so much more that
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: We've just sort of opened the door a little bit
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: here in this conversation. Will you tell everybody where they
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: can find you online, where they might be able to
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: connect to learn more from you or to work with you.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: So the book is on Amazon and also on Guilford's site,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: and then the book has its own website, Spectrum of
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Independence dot com.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: We have a.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Pdf that's available on the website that sort of gives
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: a quick, like ten page overview of the different levels
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: of independence and what early independence would look like versus
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: more advanced independence that people can get for free if
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: they go to the website. Nice, I believe you can
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: contact us through that website. And then also I have
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: a private practice website, zeal Beehavior dot com that people
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: could go to as well.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And we are very hopeful that by.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: August will be in a position where if somebody would
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: like to connect to get some guidance on working.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Through the book, that we would be able to offer.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: That awesome anything to add Christine Kristin cover it All,
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: She's got it.
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: I am at Auburn University, so I have an Auburn email.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: But I'm happy to, you know, to speak with people.
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: I know that you know, Auburn University has an independent
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: living program or an inclusive high ED program called Eagles.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: So I'm a part of that, and Eagles has wonderful
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: social media presence and a lot of great information and
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: so well, you know, if independent living an inclusive high
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: red is of interest to parents, and yeah, we'd be
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: happy to speak with folks, and hopefully by August we
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: have something worked out for that.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Awesome And I'm going to link everything up that you
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: just mentioned in the show notes and our listeners can
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: find that at PARENTINGADHD and autism dot com Slash three
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: two four for episode three hundred and twenty four. I
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: just want to thank you all for the work that
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: you're doing, the help that you're providing to parents and
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: in turn to neurodivergent individuals, and just like being so
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: open with your wisdom and coming here and spending your
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: time to share that and to really help folks. That's
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: really amazing work that you're doing, and I appreciate it.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: and your audience's time. I know parents' time is super
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: valuable and we talk about that in the book a lot. Yeah,
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: and so any time that they give to This is
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: greatly appreciated by someone who works an inclusive high ed
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: you know, in by practitioners, and so we appreciate all
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: the work that parents do. It's so much that y'all
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: are doing. So we appreciate y'all so much.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: Awesome.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, we appreciate you having us on here so we
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: could get the word out a little bit. More about
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: the book about inclusive I read about different opportunities you know,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: that the kids may have as they increase their independence
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: and move out of that CA to twelve system and
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: into post secondary life.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much. I will see everybody next time.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: who needs it and leave a quick review so others
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: the Regulated Kid's Project is here with the tools, coaching,
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Get more info at regulatkids dot com