Latest / Practice Ground / Ashley Edwards: Mental Health Innovator - 'Technology Solves Nothing If We Lose Our Humanity' | Ep14
Transcript
- Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Hey Ashley Edwards, thank you for joining me today. Nifemi Aluko: Thank you for having me. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: For sure, for sure. So let me do a quick intro. I've known Ashley for at this point is twelve years now. We've been homies for twelve years. Yep. We're locked in. We're locked in. but Ashley Edwards, so you're the founder CEO of Mind Rights. Mind Rights offers culturally responsive, community-based emotional support via text message. we could get more into like The technology and the business. you I do remember this clearly, you being like the first black female founder in New Jersey to raise over a million in venture capital, which is very interesting itself as a data point. Forbes 30 under 30 social entrepreneur, recognized as top 50 in digital health. Hon honoree by Rock Health. And Forbes actually named you as a top healer set to influence the next century. So this is perfect, perfect to be talking to you. I'm very honored to have you as a friend and someone that is willing to, give me your perspective on wellness, entrepreneurship, and thinking about purpose as we go. Deeper into this next century. So, just a quick overview for the people that don't know: how did you get on this mind right journey? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. So I was not someone who always knew I was gonna work in mental health. for me, it was about seeing a problem that I couldn't walk away from in my own community. And we talk and hear so much about intergenerational trauma, especially in communities of color. And there's just a lack of mental health support that is accessible to us. And so I wanted to create something that makes sense for multicultural communities and knowing that. Text message is one of the most accessible forms of delivering services. So MindWrite was born from that, where we provide emotional support via text message. And when people Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: join MindWrite, we match them to a MindWrite partner who is essentially their emotional support human. And they can text them for everyday life. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah yeah yeah that's pretty cool. I remember, then when we're on campus as in Stanford and then most people were like trying to build an app or something, right? You remember? Everybody was trying to build some type of app. and I remember why when you were prototyping what you were building and you were going text message, which I thought was pretty cool. why did you choose text Nifemi Aluko: Okay. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: message as opposed to what most people were doing in terms of like, let's go build this app. Versus Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. a lot of people are curious about this. I think for me, I've found that often the most radical innovations are the simplest. And so for us, it wasn't about creating another app for people to download and take up storage space on their phone. That's cool. There's a lot Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: of very useful apps, but for us it was about how do we make MindWrite most accessible to people with the least amount of access. And that is just straight SMS texting. And Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: That's why you see the prevalence of just pure SMS texting services in a lot of other regions of the world, because it works. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yep, yep, yep. And over the l last what ten years, eleven building this what has been your has anything changed from the technology perspective? Because it's still text message, right? is there more Innovation more on the matching of people or are you doing more innovation even in just making, I don't know, the text message the technology more efficient? what what is what has changed, what has evolved? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, it's really interesting because at this point, our longest standing Mindwrite member was texting us for more than six years, every single day for six years. And so when you have people who are just using the service like that, we're able to accumulate a lot of data on what works and what actually is impacting people's lives. So to your point, we're pretty confident that we can match people to someone who can truly support them emotionally. And we've gotten feedback on how that's change people's lives to actually feel seen and heard by another human on the other side. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you we'll get more into stuff around your automation and AI, but are you as you in the last three, four years, have you as you have seen that come around, have you tried within your business to incorporate any of that into your workflow or anything? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, any of the AI or automations? Yeah. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I think AI is an incredibly useful tool, just for not for us for non-essential tasks. And so we have implemented bots at different point of the onboarding process or for admin work. but for the actual supportive conversations, those are always human. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Human. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been seeing these AI therapists where people go, kinda talk to them, spar. Well what's your take on that? That I I feel like the hum that human connection is important, but I don't know. what's your you've seen stuff in the industry. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, it's bizarre now that we're in a state of the world where it feels controversial to be pro-human providing services. But at MindRight, we believe this work should be done by humans. And Chat Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: GBT or whatever service you're using is really great for people again who otherwise may not have access and just need someone to chat with, but for consistent, ongoing real support and for safety reasons, we believe it should be led by human. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yep, yep, yep. so good, let's go back to a little bit in the initial phases, back back on campus. because I had at least the privilege to see when you started Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: on this journey, right? what I say, what signals told you okay, you're building something that people need versus you're just Either building something that is more slightly marginally more efficient than what was there before, or, building something that would attract investors, like what when did you start feeling like, there's something here for for Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: me to keep building? Nifemi Aluko: I think paying really close attention to user behavior. in early prototypes of the first versions of MindWrite even surprised me. I remember we first piloted MindWrite with some of my former students when I used to work in education in Newark, New Jersey, and just asked if they would be willing to try. And I was literally texting them on WhatsApp. but then they just kept texting and they kept going, and then more people get and it's like, This has actually become ingrained in people's daily lives. And I think when products and tools and services just become a part of a user's everyday routine, that's when you've made an impact because you've entered their daily life. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do remember it as you said, y starting out with students. it seems like it's evolved beyond just students. When did you start making that change to a broader community? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, over the past few years, it something interesting happened. Our we initially were working with high school students. Those high school students turned into college students and then turned into young professionals. They grew up and mind right grew up with them. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: yeah, that's right. They grew up. Nifemi Aluko: And then now a lot of people who knew I might surprised that the average age of someone in the mind write community is 30 years old. So It's definitely like we had many adults who were coming to us for years, Wait, I need this, I need someone to talk to this event. And Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, huh. Nifemi Aluko: so we're like, Okay, we got you. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. man, that's awesome. one thing I'm learning a lot in the space, working with different founders that are either building some form of intelligence Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: technology or AI driven thing is is very foundational because anybody right now, a lot of people can build stuff, right? You can code, revive code, or whatever it is. But the huge part, the fundamental fundamental foundational part is the access to data, right? So data where it's just sitting sitting, which a lot of comp companies have, sitting on a bunch of data, user data. that then becomes this what emote a competitive thing that blocks off people or I say helps people stay entrenched. Do you see that the data that you kind of what you've learned about people keeps them using mind rights? Is that something that you think about or that you have seen yourself? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, well, since we've been supporting MindRight, our we our database, we've actually supported more than three million text messages. And those every text represents someone seeking emotional support, talking about what's going on in their life. And we take like our user trusts extremely Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: importantly. So for us as as a founder, I think about how can I be a good steward of this data? And that looks like how can we internally make sure we're using this data to make sure people the the impact and quality remains high and people are getting what they want out of the service. So that's our first use case and primary use case of the data. But I think overall it does help us be in a position where we have a massive amount of just emotional intelligence on what wellness looks like in our communities and how can we can make sure people feel again just seen and heard. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. All right. So, based on all this, what have you learned about building a wellness solution that your industry usually overlooks? Give us the Nifemi Aluko: Ooh, okay. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: cut takes. Come on. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. I think mind write, I mind right often feels like an underdog in the mental health system because when you think about mental health, the first thing we often think about is therapy or clinical services. And those are so important. but the reality is again, everyone can't afford therap a th a therapist. And Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: there's a lot of people, you can try to drag them kicking and screaming. They will never step foot in a therapist's office. And at some point, if we are living true to the presumptive principles of human-centered design. We cannot force people to do what we want. We have to meet them where they are. And so what I've learned building mind right is just how crucial it is to have these non-clinical services, to have services that are not just therapy and clinical and have all these stigma for communities instead of again trying to force people to do something that has actually had a lot of clinical systems have had a lot of historical harm for underserved communities. So Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: meeting people where they are. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And based on what you've seen, what are some of the outcomes, right? what do people say that Nifemi Aluko: Mm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: man, I'm so grateful I used this because it helped me X. Well what are some of those outcomes for people? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I can share a few. So we had one there's one story that came in recently. Someone said they live in a rural rural area. It's very difficult to find any type of mental health resource whatsoever. So mind write is actually the only thing that is a that they could access and all they have to do is text. And that's been helpful. So there's there's a lot of access stories or people who are like, I live in a house with eight siblings and I have no personal space. and I share my red room with my younger sisters, but I can still text Mindwrite and that can just be my own form and no one has to know because it because it's not an app, Mindwrite. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: You can put Mindwrites contact in your phone as whatever you want and no one has your texting. So there's like it's it just becomes so normal. you're texting your friend. and I think just again, people, there's a lot of people, and it's often not the people you would expect, People who may be quieter or shyer, people who when you see them, you don't think that there's a lot going on at home Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Okay. Nifemi Aluko: or that they're dealing with a lot. But those are the people who are texting Mind Write essays. Those who Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: really need someone to help carry whatever emotional load they're going on. So yeah, it's been really awesome and a privilege to be a part of impacting our our members' lives. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah. you I I think you and I we've had c conversations about helping out in diverse communities, Nifemi Aluko: Okay. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: under underserved communities and you are definitely living that life of going directly and helping. What's what's your take on this whole we won't get too political, but I have some questions. there's there's this whole backlash against diversity now, at least in the US. And there's a whole rise of merit, it's all about merit. What's your take? you're someone that is in in the trenches, seeing what is going on in some communities and how it's affecting people. I've seen corporations literally strip out stuff that they committed to, four years ago, right? Just because of where we're at. do you play do you find that what you're building you have a part to play in that? Or do you just stay away from it and just focus on what you're doing? well, how are you approaching? And I'm just asking even for myself, because it's something I think about. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, we always with everything going on geopolitically, pull all of that, we just stay anchored in the work. We're in the trenches, we are frontline mental health support to thousands of people. And so when there's debates around diversity and inclusion, DEI, etc., people can have debates, but my personal stance is a debate about DEI. Doesn't change the reality of someone's lived experience. You can debate the policy, but it can it you cannot debate people's and communities' lived experiences. And so in MindRight, we work on honoring those lived experiences every day, which it continue to exist and our communities continue to overcome and survive despite what the policy says. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Exactly, exactly. I think that's where I find myself. sometimes I find myself in conversations and there's always this high-level political discussion about pro-this, anti-this, and I'm just like, let me tell you what happened to me yesterday. Nifemi Aluko: Right. Let's talk about what's a ha like what's actually happening in people's lives. And and Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I I wanna clarify, obviously policies do impact people's lives. but I think w when when it comes to DI conversation, there's just a disconnect there. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. well, I I think do you do you I think you focus directly on, users or people, right? You're going directly to people. Do you have to interact with organizations? Does mind rights do stuff with organizations or just primarily with individuals? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, so we have worked with a number of community partners and which has been an important part of our model because we recognize everyone can afford even a low-cost service. And so Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: we've partnered with foundations, with school systems, with health systems like Medicaid or commercial health insurance plans, cities who would then cover the cost of mind right for their communities. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so sw switching gears a bit. how obviously you're using technology, right? You're using the phone, even though it's is text message, text message has been around for a while, you but you're a very useful tool. How is technology, right? How does it shape the way you make sense of the world currently? Nifemi Aluko: Ooh, I think the potential of technology is in the hands of the builder. the person behind the tech determines how that tech will be used for good or otherwise. for mind, right? We choose to use tech to create systems of healing for communities. And for so for us, technology has been an extremely powerful leverage point to scale interventions that As of right now, there's a lot of people who are doing really great individual mental health work. So community leaders, advocates, providers, but technology helps us scale that so that we can reach everyone who needs it. And that's been that's part of why we built MindRight as a tech platform. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a big part of the reason I'm having these interviews, talking to people and experts in different fields, is artifici artificial intelligence, right? it's been around for a long time, so it is not so new, but this new wave of generative artificial intelligence is what is on everybody's minds. And We're seeing it where there's a narrative that automates so much. I I'm using it, I'm seeing that happening. but there's also the narrative of it's gonna automate tasks that a lot of people are used to doing, right? there's going to be there's most likely going to be some type of, I say disturbance in the economic system of, people trying to figure out what the new jobs are or whatever it is. And if it does disrupt how people work, there's a question about purpose. okay, since a lot of people tie their purpose to work, which is not the I I in in the long here, it's not like the greatest thing, but that's just what it is. But based on your experience, right? Seeing Nifemi Aluko: Mm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: helping, people with healing and yes, healing in different stages, obviously. Have you seen or if you were going to, think about this future where people might not even have work or or a job to give them a sense of like I'm doing stuff, like what type of wellness practices will do you think would come in come into play at that point? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. I actually think like you just named it. I think this shift is a great opportunity for as a collective us to shift how our self-concept and tying it from work to other things, part of Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: this human. So thinking about how we value ourselves as as a partner, as a father, as a friend, as a human being in the way we treat other people, as opposed to solely relying on j work as a source of value. so I think that's really important. And I honestly, I think it would help address a lot of other societal problems if we shift it from that individualistic nature to being more community centered. So Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: yeah. A lot of this though, I think to be honest, I don't think anyone really has the answers right now. I think we are all figuring this out in real time. It is not easy. There's been all these layoffs due to AI. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm. Nifemi Aluko: and I don't think we're talking enough. I don't think we have enough people asking the question that you are asking on what is this actually doing to us as people and humanity. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. I yeah, the for me it's like I'm seeing it in different so when my first job, right, out of grad school, I worked at this company, Rockwell Aut Automation, and we're deploying these model predictive controls, like a neural network for a chemical plant. And I remember going in there, the technology was already I already knew about technology from grad school. So Going to deploy the stuff and real. I was just like, okay, everybody be down for this. But you go into, you walk into a plant, and immediately I noticed people were just like, this is the guy that wants to automate my job. Get the hell out of here. So, immediately I realized it was like this human thing, not the technology, it was like a human people have to think how this is going to disrupt what they already know. And then I had to almost start reframing like, no, it's going to assist you, right? It's going to be, it's going to work hand in hand. And eventually they'll see that, right? But unfortunately, I feel like where we're at now, the narrative is this use AI or die, like it's like, what the calm down, right? It's I I really feel like it's an unfortunate narrative, right? Because Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: it puts people in this fear where instead of them playing with the stuff or trying it out and seeing what they can use, they're just like, I don't even want to mess with this stuff. this black box thing. And yeah, you're right. The shift is going to be tough because even for me consciously, I when I meet people and they're like, hey, so what do you do? I try, I try I'm like, how long can I hold out before telling them what I do for a profession? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. So ingrained this tide of work that we have. it's into you what you were just saying about your story, it also makes me think about how not perfect analogy, but how taxi drivers fed up felt about ride sharing. How I'm seeing conversation now about how journalists are feeling about content creators taking their jobs. Or even for mind, right? We experienced this with mental health professionals who feel like we are taking their j jobs. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: You guys, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: A lot of just stuff going on right now and fear is an understandable thing. when again, work is life in in capitalism. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: but that's gonna need to shift because it's not gonna be a healthy dynamic for the direction that AI is rapidly taking us. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah. there's some people that are big on the it's just a tool, it is a overhyped plug in. and then there's some people that are like, this is gonna change everything. As you said, nobody knows and that's why for me the exploration of asking the questions is actually even more important than, trying to find this specific answer. but one thing that's coming across from a lot of my conversations is the human aspect of being in fact someone said something the last my last interview that got me thinking it was like AI is gonna make is gonna speed up our quest for purpose. I was I was like tell me more. It was like because the more technology automates what we do for work Then you're gonna have to sit back and be like, why am I here? I'm like, huh. So Nifemi Aluko: Hm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: he sees it almost like a good thing. this, look going up that mass law of hierarchy is like technology is gonna speed us up that that way. I'm like, all right, cool. Then there's another guy I spoke to, and he's like, Technology doesn't solve anything. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: He was like it's the flow, it's the political flow of capital that solves problems, not technology. I was like, so I don't know, you you being the back to first female Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: founder, one million VC, right? huge achievements from New Jersey. But perhaps there should even be more people like you raising that type of money and solving actual real problems. So do you think it's a technology thing or do you think it's a capital thing? Nifemi Aluko: I I think it's both, which feels like a not clear answer, but I actually relate to what both of those previous guests said because Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I think technology a AI very much so is and or will create an existential crisis for a lot of people. at the same time. Even if you're working your way up Maslow's hierarchy of needs to purpose and enlightenment, it does not guarantee that you will get there. And I think in order to get to the Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: no. Nifemi Aluko: top of that pyramid, it requires it requires preserving our shared humanity. And that's where the other guest you said technology doesn't solve it's technology solves nothing if we lose our humanity. It solves solves nothing. So I think my biggest concern is just Yeah, just preserving our humanity right now. I just saw a new company come out. May maybe you've seen it. And it's a company that allows agents to hire humans to do physical tasks. And it's like, humans, we want to hire you. And I think that's but that and that is that is the world we are living in and the direction this is going, which again is like What does it mean? What does it mean to be human? Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. this the I haven't seen that company, but it's just like the the pace of this stuff. there's a f there's a don't know if you heard of Motes Book. There's the the is the is the Facebook for agents. It's just agents talking to one another. I'm just like, okay. Nifemi Aluko: I thought that as well. Mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: they can literally create their own language and what do are we just supposed to watch them? And and maybe Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: the question is maybe we're Maybe the question is we're thinking too much about ourselves and thinking like, it's all about us and we're supposed to be the ones observing all the time. But There's always that question, as you said, the the the builder behind the technology, why? Why are you building this stuff, right? one of the top AI researchers, I think is Hinton, that's his name. They call him the godfather of AI. And he's saying now, or I heard him recently say, we have to make sure AI AI has maternal instincts. Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Because That's the only way it's not gonna if it the only time his argument is the only time that a a being that is more intelligent than something else doesn't take advantage of that thing is when a mom is with a child or something. So the only way is to make sure that this thing that is eventually gonna become more intelligent than us, we have to in infuse it with humanity. But what he said very directly was maternal instincts. And I was just like, Okay, how how does that work? for you, what's the shared humanity? You mentioned something about shared humanity. What's the what what are some of those threads of this is our shared humanity? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. I think about in the context of mind right work mind rights work, our shared humanity means the way that we the way that we express and feel and experience love and heartbreak and struggle and joy and pain, all of those experiences are very important because they make up what is the human condition. And if we eliminate if we eliminate our ability to experience things that allow us to feel those feelings and human experiences. if we bring in agents or we just outsource our whole human experience to agents, I think we're not fulfilling the purpose of what it means to be human in the human condition. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I hear you. I hear you. It's gonna be very interesting next ten years. That's that's to say the least. It's gonna be very interesting. so just we're getting close to the end here. things are moving fast. So as some that's building stuff as a founder, you always have to make decisions on what to build next. Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: So that it requires a lot of judgment, a lot of cutting out the noise. How do you stay aligned with your taste, or values in such a noisy whenever the environment gets very noisy? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I think just going back is pretty simple, but going back to is this what our users want? So just for context, every year I have countless people telling me, why don't you make mind write a chat bot? You should make mind write a chat bot. Why don't you make mind write a chat bot? It'd be so much more scalable. It'd be so make mind write and I when I to tell them if you knew how many people texted us on almost on a daily basis saying, This isn't a chat bot, right? I don't want Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: to talk like to I don't want to talk to a bot. our users don't wanna talk to a bot. And I think sometimes, especially VCs and investors, we get really excited about an innovation and just wanna just wanna fund it, put in a billions of dollars so they get to everywhere. But is that actually what people want and need? Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very so you for you, that that value is just staying very close to the customer experience and making sure that is locked in. do you think is important? We spoke briefly about diversity and in terms of funding and i even some of the policies. How important do you think it is in building technology? Having different and obviously diversity is beyond just race or sex, just different Ways of thinking, culture. How important is that to you, even as you build, or just being in that space where a lot of people are building? Nifemi Aluko: It I it's of the utmost importance, diversity in every way, because w everything in this world is here by design. So if you are not designing, you are living by the designs of other people. And so the question is, who are we entrusting to design the worlds that we live in? And they should reflect the people in this world. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-mm. Yeah. that's that's that's my beef with that's my beef with that's my beef with sometimes Silicon Valley, the Bay, even the AI space, when I go in there sometimes it's beyond going into a place where you don't see people like yourself, right? And what ends up happening to me because I do end up in those spaces a lot. I'm sure you might also, but even this is even before the Bay Area. when I used to do my work with Rockwell, right? I'm going to all these small remote towns, factories, Nebraska, Indiana, you can imagine. and I've done I've been doing this for 20 years now, right? And it's every time I go to these rooms and you take a picture And then you see the picture afterwards, and you're just that that one yeah, that pixel that yeah yeah Nifemi Aluko: Why you would talk about you? Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: yeah, that one darker pixel that is just floating in the picture. Yeah, Nifemi Aluko: Thanks. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: yeah, yeah. that pixel gets you got some pigments. Anyways, what ends up happening is I'm interested in the technology. I want to be in this room, but sometimes I'm just like, man, I wanna be in this room, you right? Because you are You have to overcome all the little cultural things and blah, blah, blah, blah. anyways, that's just a little rant on my beef with these spaces where it's like there was a swing towards trying to bring more people into the space. And then it's like that swing has changed. Now it's now this whole narrative or something else about merit, like there wasn't merits there before, are you seeing that, As you build, you're raising money or getting the right partners, how do you navigate that space? Nifemi Aluko: Absolutely. It's a continuous thing in the journey. And who loses out are it's just all of us. We lose out on innovations. We lose out on ideas and strategy. And let me just say one thing about Gen Z. Gen Z does not step into any room or do anything they don't want to do. And so what we're gonna have now is a bunch of. future amazing technologists and innovators who are simply choosing not to participate. and I'm really curious to see where that leaves us. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Yeah. So what do you that that's very interesting. now there's this generational thing, right? Because people like, okay, the millennials, we just for me, I'll speak for myself. You just power through, man. man, I have to be at this conference. you gotta do what you gotta do, right? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: I feel like that's how our generation it seems like this younger generation, nope, not going to that room. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, no mm mm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: You can't make me do it. but I I do feel like for myself there there's a pro to pushing yourself to go into that uncomfortable room, right? And Nifemi Aluko: Mm, mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: step out of your comfort zone. Although if you step out of your comfort zone all the time, has own effects. But where's the line for you? obviously you've seen some of these younger people grow. They've grown with mind rights. You have more at least more than I do, more of a pulse on their thinking. Where where do you draw the line of it's good to have a very clear sense of the rooms you want to be in, but then when do you push to be like, make sure you get into that room. Nifemi Aluko: Ooh, I think there is a line for every single one of us where we know we have now compromised ourselves and our beliefs. And I think we know when we've crossed that line, even if not overtly, but how our body responds, how our sleep responds. And so I think staying in touch. with those signals from ourselves, when we've reached that point we need to exit stage left immediately. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Stage lifts. Especially if you're not sleeping at night. That's that's that's the big that's a big tell when Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: you can't sleep. Yep. All right. Ashley, last question. It's a fun question. I ask everybody this. so if the entire world went dystopian, right? Dystopian, dystopian. Yeah, it seems like we're already experiencing it. Agents hiring people to do stuff. Anyways, but hardcore, we're serving, we're serving this machine, where yeah, yeah, it's just the inequality is 10x, right? Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: the capital and access to things have accumulated even further for a few. so that's the dystopian world, or utopian, right? The utopian world is We have friendly AI, trustworthy AI. It's here to help us. It cares primarily about boosting this human, shared human interest. perhaps there's some form of some form of universal basic income. Maybe. I don't know what that looks like, but maybe you don't have to work unless you want to work, right? So you can you don't have to be Thinking about food, there's abundance, right? So these two worlds. You have to choose one of the two worlds that you would live in, right? And tell me what daily practice would you do living in that world? Nifemi Aluko: choose one as an I'd I'd prefer to live in that world or Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: No, not preferred. Just I bet I know most people prefer to live. No, I'm just just like as an exercise, you have to choose one. Just choose just whatever comes to you. It could be either the dystopian or utopian world. Nifemi Aluko: Okay, I'm gonna choose the utopian because I've actually okay, I'll make my answer short, but I feel like I've watched a lot of movies and read books where the utopian world actually ends up being a dystopian world, people realize. So I think when we try to make things perfect, sometimes we exhort a lot of control over then how people should move. And so what I would want to be incorporated in the utopian world is that we still have freedom to Love and connect with other people on our terms. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm. Mm-hmm. And for you, how do you practice that on a daily basis? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. well I think even just to remind right, it's about human connection. How like it's we have other people signing up to emotionally support other people. It's not AI, it's humans. And so that's what I really believe in and what would want to protect that at all costs, our ability to just connect with each other and our shared humanity. Ashley Edward Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 273ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Well, Ashley, thank you very, very much for your time. I think one thing I'm hearing from a lot of people I'm talking to as is shaping my mind for this book is the importance of community. And you are definitely someone that's at the on the front lines trying to build community, trying to support community. So really appreciate your friendship and I appreciate the work you're doing. And thank you for joining today on my podcast. Turn it into a book. Nifemi Aluko: I appreciate you. Thank you.