Latest / The Permission Slip / S2 | E9 Dr. Katie Simons, PharmD, Clinical Pharmacist, Transpersonal Hypnotherapist, Psychedelic Medicine Facilitator and Coach

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S2 | E9 Dr. Katie Simons, PharmD, Clinical Pharmacist, Transpersonal Hypnotherapist, Psychedelic Medicine Facilitator and Coach · The Permission Slip

• S2E9 - Simons === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt Kosterman. Welcome back to the Permission Slip. I'm here today with Katie Simons, who's coming to us from beautiful, warm Santa Fe, New Mexico. Hi Katie. Thanks for being here. Katie Simons: Okay, Matt, thanks for having me. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, this is great. So, so Katie is a hypnotherapist, and a facilitator, and so we're gonna talk about. One of my favorite topics at some point. Matt Kosterman: Psychedelics and, uh, all the other things. 'cause there's, she, she does a whole list of things. And, um, most fascinatingly to me, she came to it from a very western medical perspective. She's a, a, has holds a doctor of pharmacy from, uh, is it Idaho State? Yeah. Idaho State. And worked as a, uh, pharmacist in the va. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Hospital Katie Simons: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: so Katie, welcome. Tell us a little bit about how, how you got into where you are today. What, what brought you to this role of facilitating medicine journeys and doing hypnotherapy and coaching people? Um, Katie Simons: it's always such an interesting question to start with. It's like, where do you begin? Matt Kosterman: yeah. Katie Simons: Um. Well, I'll start with my father is a pharmacist, and so that was, that was kind of a strong, strong encouragement out of high school to just go get my doctorate. So it's a path I started on without, um, without like a inner drive for it, I guess. Katie Simons: Um. And then there was a, there was a turning point somewhere in there where I really started to love clinical work. So after I got my doctorate, I went and did a residency and then worked in the VA system for 10 years in primarily in internal medicine and then in Matt Kosterman: I don't Katie Simons: medication. Matt Kosterman: I Katie Simons: Go ahead. Matt Kosterman: to cut you off. I'm not seeing, Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: an, an audio monitor like I hear you. But I wanna, Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: stop the recording and make sure it's recording Katie Simons: Okay. Matt Kosterman: because I can obviously hear you fine, but there's a little, or do you have next to your picture? Do you have the little, uh, to the right, lower right corner? Matt Kosterman: Is there a little ga uh, gauge that goes up and down as you talk a little bar? Katie Simons: Oh, I do see it. Yes, Matt Kosterman: moving on your end. Katie Simons: it is moving on my end. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: so I'm just gonna stop the recording 'cause. Hi, this is Matt Costman. Welcome back to another episode of the Permission Slip. Today I am here with Katie Simons, who is coming to us from beautiful Santa Fe, New Mexico, where it's, they're getting a, an early spring. Hey, Katie, welcome. Katie Simons: Hi Matt. Thanks for having me. Matt Kosterman: Thanks for being here. Um, this is great. I'm excited to dig in. Katie is a a coach, and a facilitator of, uh, medicine journeys, among other things. Matt Kosterman: Um, and she comes to us with a background, fully western background as a doctor of pharmacy. Um, she got her doctorate from the, uh, Idaho State University. So again, welcome Katie, and just love to hear kind of your origin story and how you came, you know, from dark side Katie Simons: It's the dark side. Um, well, I guess I'll start. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Katie Simons: ahead. Yeah. Uh, I'll start as far back as, um, my father is a pharmacist and so in high school not really having any direction that was out to like, go further my education, there was a lot of encouragement to just go get my doctor to pharmacy. So that's the path I started on. Katie Simons: Um, and, and I can't say that there was a lot of passion for it until, um, my clinicals. And then I realized I really loved working in the clinical setting. So after school I went and did a residency and then ended up working for the Veterans Affairs Healthcare System for 10 years, mostly in internal medicine. Katie Simons: And then, um, medication quality and safety, and then as the patient safety manager. So there was a few different hats that I wore throughout that career. Um. Matt Kosterman: Like the, the VA's, like the VA's, like the 800 pound gorilla of Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: It's like, Katie Simons: It is. And it's like the 800 pound gorilla of mental health care. Matt Kosterman: yeah. Katie Simons: So even working in internal medicine and cardiology, there was always that aspect to things working with a veteran population. Katie Simons: Um, but I really, I really loved it until I didn't, um, I, the turning point was really COVI and the what that, um, what that happened to the healthcare system, no matter what healthcare system you were in during that period of time was. It was so eye-opening to, it was like a, the stress test that like showed all the cracks in the system and exploited them all. Katie Simons: And, um, at the time I was not working as a really, as a pharmacist anymore, but as a patient safety manager. And so everything, all the process improvement for the whole healthcare system was kind of my baby. And, um, it was like, ev go ahead. Matt Kosterman: patient safety is around like medical medicine interactions and, uh, Katie Simons: anything that goes wrong in the system. So it could be medication related, it could be surgery related, it could be infection related. Um, there it was, uh, a program set up to try to minimize harm that happens inside the system to patients, which, you know, if. Uh, patient harm is a very common thing 'cause we're humans taking care of humans in a very complex system and patients are really vulnerable. Katie Simons: And, um, you know, there are studies out there that say that, um, patient harm inside the system is actually like the third leading cause of death in the US healthcare system, which is kind of one of those like statistics that's like, ooh, and having been there and done that job, I can tell you that's true. Matt Kosterman: That's Katie Simons: Um, yes and Matt Kosterman: have, you have people, you have patients who most often have been trained to completely give their power over Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: human in Katie Simons: Yes. Matt Kosterman: heal them, fix them Katie Simons: Yeah. Especially as veterans because veterans have been taught to, um. Matt Kosterman: out to follow Katie Simons: Uphold hierarchy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: Yeah. They're, they to do what they're told. Matt Kosterman: Right. Katie Simons: Um, and so inside a healthcare system with a team of doctors and, you know, an attending and then residents and student doctors and your nurses and your pharmacists, you have a very clear hierarchy. Um, and yeah, so it was my job to look at all the things that would go wrong or could go wrong and try to shore up systems so that, um, those things didn't go wrong. Katie Simons: And it was a hard job because there's a lot of systems that don't talk well to each other inside of a hospital, which is odd because we have technology that would allow that. Um, but then co Matt Kosterman: your, your Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: and your Yeah. Katie Simons: Yep. There's silos and, um, different software systems for different departments and, um. There's, there's lots of, like, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, probably old software. Katie Simons: some of them, some of them for sure. Katie Simons: Um, but then COVID happened and it was like, it was like the entire healthcare system in the entire country. Forgot about everything except for COVID. And, um, it was very strange and it felt like everything that I was doing, it just like, made me realize that everything I was doing was just a show for the, um, for the numbers and for, um. Katie Simons: Administration to feel like we were doing something positive. And then when the priority shifted to something else, it was like nothing that I'd done mattered, and nothing that, nothing that all the staff that had done, like had been working on these projects mattered. And all of the changes we'd tried to put in place to help keep people safe inside a hospital system, it didn't matter anymore. Katie Simons: And it was just so, so odd. It was, Matt Kosterman: Wow. Katie Simons: it, it ma it's like one of those crazy making phenomenons where you're like, am I losing my mind? Or did everybody else lose their mind? Matt Kosterman: So you Katie Simons: Um, Matt Kosterman: pre COVID, you were doing all this patient safety and, and all this, and then COVID just made it irrelevant. Katie Simons: yep. The only thing that mattered was COVID numbers and, um, hospital bed occupation and like, um, it was just so, so strange. Um, and at the time. I was going through my own personal, like a, a divorce and moving through my own personal stuff, and it just led to a lot of burnout and realizing that I had been on a hamster wheel that I thought was progress Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: came to the energy was putting into something I really cared about as far as taking care of patients in a healthcare system. Katie Simons: And, and I just had to step back and look at it and realize, um, this is not progress. This is simply a hamster wheel. So I stepped off of it with very little plan. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Wow. Katie Simons: Um, Matt Kosterman: Super brave. Katie Simons: yeah. Um, I, when I stepped off the hamster wheel, it was really a big moment of, okay, where do I put my energy and my knowledge base like. Katie Simons: That I've accumulated over the last 15 years. And the one thing that made sense was psychedelics. Um, I'd been a closeted, psychedelic user since, uh, like college. Uh, and it had really made a difference in my life. And so it was like, okay, this is a space I can get behind and try to figure out what the needs are and how I can best serve this space because this is a space that makes change happen. Katie Simons: Real change. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: Um, Matt Kosterman: how, what, what was your initiation with psychedelics in college? Like recreational kind of Katie Simons: yeah. Recreational. Um, my first psychedelics experience was, uh, a total epiphany on MDMA at a Phish show. Matt Kosterman: Oh, Katie Simons: Um. Of just realizing that I could, I could, I could physically be this happy though. And in my early twenties, that was like mind blowing to me that I had been living my life not happy and I didn't even realize it. Katie Simons: Um, Matt Kosterman: And do you, do you attribute that, I mean, was there childhood trauma or was it just a normal childhood and you ended up in the Matrix, basically? Katie Simons: I had a pretty normal childhood with great, and I have great parents. I, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. So it Katie Simons: have a great relationship with 'em. Uh, I did grow up in a very religious household, Matt Kosterman: Okay. Katie Simons: and I do think that religious conditioning has its own flavor of trauma that comes with it, um, developmentally, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: um, when it's something that is all, you know, from a, from the very, very early age. Katie Simons: Um, and so there was some unraveling of that to be done. Um. Matt Kosterman: In terms of that, God's not sitting up there on a bench in the cloud waiting for you to good or do bad. Katie Simons: Yeah. And that there's the whole concept of right and wrong and, um, being a good girl and, you know, a lot of, um, your, your soul is owned by something else other than you. That's, and that's an existential kind of aha moment that's kind of big to stumble into realizing it's not true. Um, but yeah, I, I would say no, I don't have any like major traumas and I had a normal childhood and I still ended up a really angry person when, in my younger years, Matt Kosterman: your Katie Simons: so, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Maybe the, the said said Soul was trying to send a message. Katie Simons: Yeah. Yep. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, so the, yeah, so the MDMA was the, the gate, the door opener. I mean, amazing then that you, you know, continued your, through the system like, like wor working in the, in the medical system and doing all the amazing stuff that you did in, in that box. Matt Kosterman: Like just I look at that and go, oh my God, that would be really hard for me to do to. Katie Simons: Yeah. Com Compar compartmentalization is a fascinating thing and I can, I can honestly say I lived two separate lives for a decade, easily or more, um, where it was like I was professional, Dr. Katie Simons and I went to work, and then I was. Closeted Psycho Knot on the weekends, and, um, you know, going to Burning Man and Phish shows and, and exploring what consciousness was, but within the realm of what I considered reality at the time. Katie Simons: Um, and it wasn't until after leaving the system, the healthcare system, that I think my, my, um, my little, my little facade of what reality is kind of got blown to smithereens. Matt Kosterman: Crack that little sucker right open. Katie Simons: Yep. Matt Kosterman: did you, did you not, uh, did you just at work not talk about like, activities outside of work and what you were doing, or it was you just basically Katie Simons: Correct. Yep. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Just Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Like the old, I don't know if you're old enough to remember the old, uh, was like Bugs Bunny cartoon with a, a sheep and a wolf. Matt Kosterman: A sheep dog and a wolf. And they would go punch in, you know, they'd walk to work together and chat and they'd punch in and then the sheep dog would beat the shit out of the wolf Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: all day. And then he'd, they'd punch out. And the. The wolf was all battered and he'd be like, you know, night, night, Sam, night Bill. Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I was Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Since the fifties, they, the, you know, the cartoon people have been trying to show us how this shit works. Katie Simons: Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Um, I think it wasn't until I sat with Ayahuasca for the first time that it was like, um, very quickly all, all of that, um, conditioning. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: And I, I could see it Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: the first time and really had to look at it and question my authenticity in what I was doing and how I was living my life and where I was putting my energy. Katie Simons: And, um. Yeah. All the, all the structures really fell, fell down at that point. Matt Kosterman: And when was that? When, when did you first sit with, uh, AYA. Katie Simons: 2022. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Post COVID. Nice. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. And it was a, uh, you know, mushrooms that had, had been my like teacher until that point. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: uh, it was a very clear, like ho coming home in a lot of ways to start working with ayahuasca and, uh, I jumped headfirst into that. Um, mostly be, not, not to, um, not for any reason other than my own understanding of reality in myself. Matt Kosterman: And yourself? Yeah. Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Let me just back up for the, to the mushrooms, uh, uh, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: 'cause I had a conversation with, one of my clients when I was at a shooting, photographing a meeting down in Florida last week. Um, and I just want to try to dispel this notion that they're dangerous. Katie Simons: Hmm mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: To my knowledge, nobody in the history of the world has died from consuming psilocybin mushrooms. Katie Simons: Correct. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: there's like no overdose. I mean, you won't have fun on Katie Simons: True, Matt Kosterman: Maybe Katie Simons: true. Yes. Um, even the drug drug interactions that are out there with mushrooms, people are, there's a, there's a sec of people out there who would like everyone to believe that there's danger in some of that and Matt Kosterman: the interactions like with Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: and SNRIs and. Katie Simons: And, um, I still have yet to see data that, um, shows that people have actually come to harm, um, even with drug interactions on board. Katie Simons: Uh, I, Matt Kosterman: you might not have a trip, or it might not Katie Simons: yeah, Matt Kosterman: particularly enjoyable or whatever, but Katie Simons: yeah. Correct. Matt Kosterman: the odds of permanent harm are very, very, very vanishingly low. Katie Simons: Yeah. Most of the antidepressants and sleep aids and antipsychotics that work on serotonin really block the ability for psilocybin to work. Um, and so you have a blunting effect Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: that in and of itself can certainly cause, um, some psychological damage if there's expectations for a certain experience that then doesn't happen, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: having to unpack that. Katie Simons: Um. But the idea that people are dying or being hospitalized for serotonin syndrome is just not something I've seen substantiated, and it's certainly not been my experience in working with people who are on these medications with psilocybin, either through microdosing or with journey dosing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: Um, and, Matt Kosterman: go ahead. Katie Simons: and so I just, I don't, I don't understand why the fearmongering is happening in the, in, um, I don't, I don't understand it personally. Matt Kosterman: to, it's, it's also more rightfully so in the MDMA space, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: which is also for those who also known as Molly, or it's the active ingredient in ecstasy. Um, but even there, and again, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a researcher, but it would seem, I mean, there's a, there's definitely a lot of caution in the medicine world about serving people MDMA are on SSRIs. But there's also a whole bunch of people that go to parties and raves, and they don't know. They don't care what they're taking, and they take God knows what, and there's not like this massive wave of people with serotonin syndrome and deaths. And I mean, we would hear about it. I mean, Katie Simons: Yes. Matt Kosterman: it's, it would be giant news for any news company, you know, agency to pick up on the, adverse reaction from a pharma, from a psych psychedelic. Katie Simons: Yeah. With MDMA, it is interesting, your interaction with SSRIs and SNRIs and other serotonergic medications is a little stronger, pharmacologically in, in two ways. One, um, your blunting effect is more profound and. And with MDMA, you do have a ceiling dose, so there is a point at which you, you get a toxic effect serotonergic, even with MD NMA by itself, if you push the dose too high. Katie Simons: So we can't, like with mushrooms, you can't just push the dose with MDMA, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Right, Katie Simons: um, and so to, and so what you end up with for an experience is a blunted serotonergic effect, but you still get that norepinephrine and dopamine effect that MDMA has. And so you end up with a very distorted experience Matt Kosterman: mm. Katie Simons: for one and two s. Katie Simons: Uh, MDMA, unlike psilocybin does cause the release of serotonin in the brain. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: Psilocybin just stimulates the serotonin receptor. MDMA both stimulates the serotonin receptor and causes the release of serotonin. And so you do have a higher risk of serotonin toxicity or what people call serotonin syndrome. Katie Simons: And so for that reason, I usually don't recommend combining antidepressants with MDMA simply because there's a slight, there is a slightly higher risk and you're not gonna get the experience you want. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: So then it's the question of why are we, why are you doing it? Um, Matt Kosterman: so what, tell, talk to me about your guidance for somebody who comes to you. Maybe do, do you serve MDMA to people in Katie Simons: once in a while to certain people, but it's not, it's not my medicine of choice. Matt Kosterman: Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Katie Simons: Mm. Matt Kosterman: how, what, what's your, because there are tons of people, I mean, I was on SSRIs for 15 years, um, but I was off them for probably, I dunno, eight or 10 prior to any psychedelic use. Um, but so for somebody who hears about, you know, the power of psychedelics and, and, but they're scared or they're, you know, they know that they shouldn't be mixing. These, you know, especially with MDMA, although I, I personally like MDMA as an intro to psychedelics because it's a more embodied, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: non-ordinary consciousness. Walls aren't typically not melting Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: you know, Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: going super psychedelic. So where do you, how do you navigate with folks? What's, what, what are some things for people to maybe be thinking about or, and know might, you know, we, we chatted a little bit about microdosing, um, uh. Katie Simons: Um, I think this conversation really starts, uh, before the medicine of these are all tools in a toolbox, right? And so then the big question is, where are you now and where do you wanna go? That's how we pick the correct tool. When folks come and they're on a medic, an antidepressant already, the first question is, what's been, what's your relationship with this medication? Katie Simons: How has it served you? Has it, has it served you? Do you feel it has served you? How long have you been on it? Where are you at in this relationship with the substance that you put in your body every day? And why are you now looking for another solution and a solution for what? And, and these questions are, are deeply personal and different for every individual. Katie Simons: Um, sometimes the answer is, you know, I've been on this medication 30 years. I don't know if it's doing anything for me anymore. I've tried to get off it twice and that's been horrible. Experience, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: I would like to try life without it. And that's a very different starting point than someone who has been on it, you know, a year and a half and was like, this actually really helped me cool down the symptoms that were making life completely intolerable and now I am looking for a little bit more, um, or I'm still suffering from depression, anxiety. Katie Simons: It may not be as bad, but it's still there. Matt Kosterman: Still Katie Simons: Um, and so where we go from there and the tools we use are different. And, and I, and I will say psychedelic medicine isn't always the first thing that I reach for. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: Um, to me in my experience with clients, step one is decompressing the nervous system. It's can we get you into your body? Katie Simons: And can we then allow a space where you can emote, where you can express your emotions or you can feel your feelings. Sometimes that an, an antidepressant is actually blocking one's ability to do that. And so we need to kind of start taking that away in conjunction with adding some other tools. Um, sometimes people need the antidepressant in order to feel safe feeling their feelings, because if it's not there, they're too overwhelming. Katie Simons: Antidepressants just turn the volume down on symptoms and sometimes that's necessary and supportive. And sometimes it's blocking people's ability to move forward. And so where we go and the tools we pick depend on where a person's at. Matt Kosterman: And so that might be somatic work, that might be hypnotherapy, that might be a, a host of the things that you're Katie Simons: Yeah, per personally, my somatic, the, my go-to somatic tool is somatic breathwork journeying. And, um, I have found that that isn't a really safe contained, um, you know, one hour long space that people can come to and breathe and get into an altered state of consciousness just through their breath, just enough for their body to have a space to scream and cry and kick and punch and or just feel. Katie Simons: What's coming up and then calm back down. It's a, it's a opening of, of a activation of your nervous system and then a, a very intentional closing of it so that your body starts to feel like, oh, I can do this and I can do this safely. And that's been, I, I find it to be a really profound tool for people that's accessible no matter where they're at usually. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And are you, when you say somatic breathwork, so what does that, what does that look like? I've experienced a number of different. Modalities and breath work. What are you, are you hands on while they're breathing? Katie Simons: I do most of my, um, sessions virtually, so no in person it can be hands on. Um, but it's a structured six. Um, what am I looking for? What's the word I'm looking for? Matt Kosterman: like, Katie Simons: Yep. A breathing. And the first three cycles are mouth breathing. So to activate your nervous system to sim simulate a little bit more of a sympathetic nervous system response. Matt Kosterman: got it. Katie Simons: Um, and then the back three are nose breathing to calm things back down and engage your parasympathetic nervous system. And in between there's breath holds that are intended to kind of just bring you back into your body and quiet. So it's different from some of the more, um, psychedelic breath work, um, modalities. Katie Simons: 'cause the intention is to get you in your body, feeling your body, feeling your feelings, letting them move through you, um, as opposed to journeying elsewhere. Matt Kosterman: Yes. I mean, I've just, as I've done this work, I've become so present to how, um, this system just, it cuts us off from our feelings. Like we're, we're, we're told that they're bad. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: from growing, growing up it was, you know, stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. So it started very early. Katie Simons: Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: and then that just keeps getting reinforced. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, Katie Simons: There's no space for them. Matt Kosterman: right? Girls can't be angry. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what ends up happening in one's nervous system when we can't complete these nervous system activations through emotion, through letting that energy flow through us, is we end up in these states of, um, a freeze, chronic freeze, um, of dissociation, um, and of nervous system collapse. Katie Simons: And that's not when our body is like that all the time, we can't function, Matt Kosterman: No. Katie Simons: um, we don't function very well. Matt Kosterman: I was in a state of, uh, you know, they never called it fibromyalgia, but it was damn near. I mean, I Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I was so locked up and moved. Pelvis was just a brick, the whole thing. Um, and it was working, especially with MDMA, that just showed me how all of that stuff had been stopped. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And it was just, I mean, I just, I was like, just, and I used to chew gum like crazy, Katie Simons: Yep. Matt Kosterman: that was like, that was like just grinding the anger down. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: me a way, just grinding it, grinding it, grinding it, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: uh Katie Simons: and I think that the mental health symptoms that we see today in depression, anxiety, even as far as like OCD and a DH, Matt Kosterman: mm-hmm. Katie Simons: you're just seeing different expressions of this nervous state of be, uh, nervous system, state of being. And some people's bodies express it in physical pain or insomnia or mental health symptoms. Katie Simons: It's like, I, I think a lot of what we suffer from culturally. Really can be narrowed back down to where, what state is your nervous system in? Um, and Matt Kosterman: It's like all, they're all different expressions of the restriction on expression Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: it's gonna, it's coming out somehow the Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: there Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: gonna manifest it in some way Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. And when we get contracted like that, we get so scared of feeling the hard feelings, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: um, um Matt Kosterman: And, and that's, yeah. And then, and then the way the Western model model approaches that is, let's find some substance that will make you not feel, Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: let's, yeah. Katie Simons: Yeah, which is exactly why reaching for psychedelics isn't always my first tool because our mentality is cultural Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: way, and we see psychedelics the way we see pharmaceuticals as something to reach for, to make me feel better. And that is not the power behind psychedelic use. Um, it really isn't. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Talk to me about what is Katie Simons: Um, psychedelics, well, there's a couple different levels to this, so I'll start with like the scientific one. The default mode network is this, um, system that of how our brain kind of runs through its normal processing. Its Matt Kosterman: day to day reality. It's what life looks like. Katie Simons: mm-hmm. It's our automatic thought processes and they just go. And, you know, those are built early in life and they're kind of like a trench where you just run through them and they get deeper and deeper and deeper, deeper. Katie Simons: And psychedelics disrupt that thought, proce those thought processes, that way of thinking, the way of seeing the world. And in doing so, they give a, they open a door to being able to see other versions of what's going on, other ways of thinking, other ways of experiencing. And that power is, I think, incredibly useful when it comes to changing how we, what we believe and how we see the world and ourselves. Katie Simons: They don't replace the belief system, though They don't, they don't give you. Matt Kosterman: that it, they show you that it Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Exactly. And so there's still like all this work that has to be done, um, once, once the chain's broken. It's like the analogy of the being chained to a wall in a cave. And you know, all this conditioning, whether it's generational conditioning or conditioning from your life or trauma or, um, you know, if you believe in past lives and reincarnation and karma, whatever it is, it is chaining you to this wall inside a cave. Katie Simons: And when we talk about healing, these tools help us break the chains, but we still have to get from the wall of the cave to the door of the cave. And then when we have to step outside the cave and, and, and there's a, then what? There's a, there's a what next? It's like healing has a finite window. I. I really dislike when people are like, well, work never ends. Katie Simons: It's like, well, healing work has an end to it. Yes. And then, and the, and what you get at that point is freedom. And freedom has, it's a really exciting thing, but it has this radical responsibility that comes with it of who am I and how am I showing up in the world and what is a authenticity and what are the choices that I'm making? Katie Simons: Um, and Matt Kosterman: How are and how are they serving me? Katie Simons: exactly. And the only person responsible for that is now you, you can't, you know, you can't no any longer look at the conditioning. And so it's, um, I think these tools help us break the chains. They help us move to the edge of the cave, maybe, um. At a different rate than some of the older tools like meditation may have, but they're still simply tools. Matt Kosterman: There's still tools. Yeah, I know in, uh, Osho, uh, was a, was an arguably an enlightened being. I mean, he argued that the old, the traditional old form of silent meditation no longer really works in the society that we have created today. It's, it's, you need to do, so there's active meditations, there's crazy dancing meditations, there's twirling, like the dervishes, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: things to break you out of, of, uh, of your default mode network effectively. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: but no, having sat, you know, I sat a set a, a 10 day silent meditation retreat and it was beautiful. It was also very, very challenging, to, to physically challenging Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: um, for 10 days. but it was great. And it was a great prep, great prep work for psychedelic work. I, the backside of the mushroom trip was like, oh, oh, well that, that's that same place I got after 10 days of sitting in silence. Katie Simons: Yes, exactly. It's the same place, different tool, right? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: And I would say that no matter what tool you're using, if you don't have a daily practice of meditation, you are not supporting change for yourself. You're not supporting healing. Um, it, and it's the thing that for some, for all of us, is the hardest to do, for some reason, to just make the time and the space to sit. Katie Simons: Um, but over and over and over again, I, I tell people like, you, you have to have a practice. It's like brushing your teeth. Like, um, and if you don't do it. Matt Kosterman: I, yeah, I, I mean, I, it's interesting in my own experience, I, I was being very good about it, uh, last year for several months, and it, I don't know if it's an excuse. I, I have a crazy travel schedule, and so that is it. I find it very difficult to maintain the practice. Um, but there's also, there was also a level, I don't know if you've come up against this, where. Things were really good. Right? And I was eating well, and I was tuned in and I was meditating. And there's a part of me that's like, oh fuck no, there's an like, there's an addiction to the suffering. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: you know, it, I, it's gotta be, it's gotta be hard. Katie Simons: Is it like a level of boredom that comes up? Matt Kosterman: boredom. And it's, it's also, I, part of it also honestly is relating with other people. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: It's just, it's Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Like, the world is a lot, you Katie Simons: The world is a lot. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: and it's almost, you know, I, I, so I'm working through this right now of like, okay, so we're doing some numbing, we're smoking some weed, and we're not eating well and we're not meditating. Matt Kosterman: Like, well, this kind of sucks too. Katie Simons: Yeah. Yeah. It healing work can get very lonely at some point. 'cause Matt Kosterman: Yep. Katie Simons: when things are good, it's not always relatable. It's, Matt Kosterman: It is not. Yeah. Katie Simons: not always relatable. Matt Kosterman: and it's all, you know, and I, and I also say this, there's, I think the shadow side of it, um, for me is, is kind of being known as a guy who does all this healing work. And I've done a lot of retreats and I've, you know, I've transformed my life remarkably, I mean, incredibly, which I often forget just where I came from in it. Um, but the shadow is this inability to say that I'm depressed. I don't really feel great. I, you know, Katie Simons: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: a pressure to be on, a pressure to be To Katie Simons: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: to Katie Simons: yeah, yeah. It goes back to like, what is the definition of being healed? And I think you would get a very different definition from everyone you ask. Um, a very shortened definition that I tend to use in my mind is access to choice. It's freedom. And that doesn't mean that hard things aren't hard, and it means that when hard things are hard, I have the capacity to feel them to move through them, and I still have access to choice of what authentically. Katie Simons: Aligns with my passion and my values, even when shit is shitty. Matt Kosterman: Because shit's gonna be shitty Katie Simons: It. Yeah. This is, this is the human experience. Matt Kosterman: no matter how Katie Simons: That's Matt Kosterman: you drink, Katie Simons: correct. Matt Kosterman: don't poison, you smoke or you know. Katie Simons: Correct. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: Yeah. But how do I show up as me Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: with me and taking care of me and, and then I, and that gives me access to peace and to authentic connection and to my freedom and the things that I value. Katie Simons: It doesn't mean things are always good. Matt Kosterman: I mean, yeah, you're, you know, floating on a cloud down the street, uh, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: and people throwing rose petals at you and Katie Simons: Yeah. That I don't even know if that would be nice. Matt Kosterman: But whatever the definition is of, of healed, right. Uh, you know, or even, you know, just having, you know, let, let's just, you know, say all of a sudden relative I didn't know exists, or, you know, dies and I have an unlimited funds, okay, but I still gotta show up every day. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: That's why so many people who win the lottery, nothing changes in their life. Katie Simons: Yeah. Yep. Matt Kosterman: Um, along the lines of, you know, working with somebody, we talked a little bit about this in the, the pre-call in this, uh, um, finding somebody who facilitates medicine journeys. Um, are the kind, what, what are, um, pros and cons? Matt Kosterman: What do you look, what, what are you looking for when, if you're gonna go do a journey someplace, let's say you want to find a, you know, a new place to, if you're, you're, you're guiding somebody into finding a provider. We talked a little bit about, um, so, you know, solo journeys journey with medicine by yourself, which have been the vast majority of my journeys have been on my own, mostly with, mushrooms and MDMA, a little bit of acid. Matt Kosterman: That's not my thing. Some ketamine, but, um, a lot of people. Again, automatically ascribe well, there's an expert, there's somebody who knows how to do I, I need to go find an expert. Katie Simons: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, what are some sort of harm, you know, you come from a harm reduction background. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, what, what sort of things are you looking for, uh, as red flags in this space? Matt Kosterman: For pe you know, Katie Simons: For facilitators? Matt Kosterman: for people? Yeah. For somebody seeking a facilitator. Katie Simons: Hmm. Oh, I feel like that is a big question. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Katie Simons: because, Katie Simons: well, one, I do think that people should feel more empowered to explore on their own and know how to, to create safety in doing so, as far as making sure that. They're not on meds that are gonna interact. They know what their source is, they know what their dose is based on that source. They know, um, who their safety nets are if things do go sideways and who those people are. Katie Simons: And those people know what, what their partaking in. Um, and so I, I do think that there should be a little bit more spoken about in the space of like feel empowered to, to explore these places on your own with the correct safety nets. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: So that's one. And, and obviously that depends on the medicine you're working with. Katie Simons: And then if you want to work with someone, I think getting to know that person and their ethos is important. How do they work? What's their background? How much personal experience do they have with the medicine they're serving? Does, how does their, um, sense of spirituality because that will come into this, these conversations align with you. Katie Simons: And, and I think that is a very personal thing. And so I encourage people to have to, in interview people, talk to them, do you like this person? Do you feel safe with this person? Does this person seem to have a sense of what, what they're doing? Do they work alone? Do they work in groups that matters depending on the medicine that you are working with? Katie Simons: Like, and, and when it comes to training, that also is like one of those, you know, in the western world where like, where did you go to school for this thing? Well. Matt Kosterman: What are, what are all the things on your wall, right? How Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: certificates? Yeah. Katie Simons: And I can tell you straight up that there's a lot of training programs in the psychedelic space right now that, you know, your requirements are to, to have two journeys. Matt Kosterman: Yep. Katie Simons: Okay. That, to me, that is not who I wanna be sitting with. Um, Matt Kosterman: Back to your back, back Katie Simons: yeah. Matt Kosterman: second harm reduction on the, on the solo journey. 'cause Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I, I mean, my initial thing was somebody was, you know, my brother was trying to get me to, he thought these things would be helpful and I completely programmed, like, they're dangerous and they'll melt your brain. Matt Kosterman: And, ended up getting some mushrooms from him and of titrated the first time was, you know, half a gram. And then I went to a gram and then that got interesting and then I went to a gram and then it got really interesting, um, um, and then ended up doing M-M-D-M-A with a therapist, but then reverted to then finding MDMA and working with that on my own and just, you know, going in. Matt Kosterman: But, um, and I got like, I just want people to know, like there's test kits, there's Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I believe it Katie Simons: Yep. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: if you're in the Chicago area, there's the, um. Chicago Re Recovery Alliance, which has a, uh, a van, uh, that is parked. It, it's one of four or five different places throughout the week. And you can take any substance to them, put it in a baggie, give them their phone number, they will put it in a mass spectrometer, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: tell you exactly what is in that substance, Katie Simons: That's really cool. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And they want people to bring them stuff because their funding is contingent upon them doing these tests. You know, they're, they're doing needle exchanges, they're helping, you know, severe addicts, but Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: there. There's also, I think it's a company, is it Kaos in Spain maybe, where you can send stuff off? Matt Kosterman: Um, I guess my, my, my overarching point is there are, if you're new to this world, there are lots and lots of resources available, for testing. There's, uh, fentanyl strips that you can easily get from Dance Safe, and you can test your material with that. And then you can talk to somebody like Katie. Um, about any interactions that might be present with medications that you're already on Katie Simons: Yep. Yeah. Um, that's kind of where I started in this world is was just offering that as a place that I could put my knowledge base to support the space. 'cause I think it's important and it's needed for people to be, um, taking that responsibility of like, okay, I wanna do this thing. How do I do it safely? Katie Simons: Um, and simple drug interactions is just one of those things. Um. As is like, you know, other like, what's your blood pressure? Things like that. Like the very basics of like, is your body gonna be able to tolerate what you want to do to it? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Katie Simons: Um Matt Kosterman: And then do you have a, like you said, do you have a safety net? Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: doing? Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: and I would, I would also highly advocate for completely clearing your schedule the next day. Don't, Katie Simons: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Matt Kosterman: because you just never know what, the backside's gonna be like. Katie Simons: Yeah. And that brings up like this big word integration that we harp on and harp on and harp on in this space. And, um, to me, if you are going into a journey with an intention, which I high highly suggest that you do, because I think our intention is what drives everything about these experiences, not our desires. Katie Simons: There's a difference between expectation and desires and intention. Um. But there, there's always an unpacking. What was that experience and what am I taking from it? How has it changed me? Has it changed me? Did I get a big download or did I have just some somatic, um, sensations come up? But then things shift a little bit afterwards. Katie Simons: Like there's so many different experiences that come from working with these substances based on the person and the substance and set and setting and all of the other things. And so integrating is, okay, how do I take what the experience I just had and allow it to be meaningful in my experience of life moving forward? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And how am I gonna show up differently as a result of what I was shown Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: in that journey? Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: the other piece of the journey that I, I, I, I tell people is don't whatever comes up, don't resist it. 'cause that's, that is where that are more likely to take a left turn. Katie Simons: Yeah, well, when we resist things, we suffer. That's true in everyday life. And it's even more true in the journeying space. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. In the non-ordinary space. Yeah. Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Push against that, it's gonna push back real hard. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: and just a, you know, it's nice to have somebody that you can call if you get stuck and to be No, you know, remind you it's gonna end, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, so anyway, I just wanted to kind of, 'cause I mean, I love this. Matt Kosterman: We haven't, I haven't talked about it to this depth, Katie Simons: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: in, in previous podcast. I just think it's important, like we talked about before, the, recording is like, know, you're your own healer. Katie Simons: absolutely. Matt Kosterman: This is about taking your power back. I mean, certainly if you break your arm, doctors are very useful. Um, if you need stitches, if there's, you know, super complicated things. Matt Kosterman: But, know, I've done, you know, dozens and dozens of trips where I just put on some headphones, set an intention, drop some mushrooms and see what comes up. Katie Simons: Yep. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: sometimes it's just the body needs to move, it needs to shake. uh, I needed to, I needed to be, I needed to see something, you know, at that time. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Matt Kosterman: Uh, and then when you are, and then, and, and this is, I think, where did this come up on the boards, you know, going back to working with a facilitator. Oh, I know it's in Paul Selig's work. Uh, and the, the, the guides, their recent reading and this showed up somewhere else. This whole game is ultimately about the collective. Matt Kosterman: And so there is great power in working solo with another, with a guide and in a group as is often done with Ayahuasca. So maybe you can talk to Katie Simons: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: to, to to that. You Katie Simons: yeah, yeah. Um, ayahuasca is a medicine that I wouldn't do alone personally. Um, it is done in ceremony and in groups and, and the people, um, serving the medicine. I think that, um, do so in teams. It's, it's a, it's a collective medicine, and the power behind a collective space is really fascinating. Um, you know, I, I had been working with psychedelics for a while, um, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: before I went to Ayahuasca, my first ayahuasca ceremonies, and I walked out of my fourth ceremony. Katie Simons: Feeling like I had just accomplished five years of really intense therapy. And that's coming from someone who was, you know, I was doing my work and using all these tools already, and it just, it, um, it blew everything that I had been doing completely out of the water. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Katie Simons: And I think Matt Kosterman: is you were doing the therapy. I mean, I, I Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: that often gets bandied about that. Oh, psychedelics are like doing five years of therapy or 10. It's if you've been doing Katie Simons: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt Kosterman: going in cold without any kind of frame of reference, it can get little overwhelming, but Katie Simons: Can, um, it, it is interesting watching people come into ceremony from different places. 'cause like I said, I, it, this medicine has Okay. Oh, I laugh because it's like, what is choice when it comes to a relationship with a medicine like this that like walks into your life and it's like, okay, this is, this is, we have a relationship now. Katie Simons: And that's what it's felt like with ayahuasca and it's just continued to be a huge part of my life, um, ever since. And watching people walk into ceremony from very different places of having done the work for a long time and worked with a lot of psychedelics too. I've never touched a psychedelic in my life, but I feel ready for transformation. Katie Simons: And, you know, every single ceremony is different for every single individual. And I can tell you every single one of my 60 plus ceremonies have been completely different. And, um, that, and it does, it does depend on the group who's in the room and where we are and. Um, who's leading the ceremony, I think has so much more to do with it than, you know, where your medicine came from and who prepared it and the water that was using it. Katie Simons: Like, all these things make a difference. And I think that before I started working with Ayahuasca, I would've looked at you and said, yes, sure. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: But I've experienced it. And, um, it does all those things. Every single little factor makes a difference. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: Um, yeah. Matt Kosterman: uh, do you always, uh, uh, do the Daya beforehand? Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: For the, for the uninitiated, it's a very clean eating, like no salt, no meat, no sugar, no Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: food. Right. Katie Simons: Yeah. The um. The teacher that I worked with had a fairly loose diet compared to some diets that you'll see in the jungle, um, in that, um, he, like, there were certain things he didn't require. We stop like caffeine. A lot of people require that you stop caffeine. So you'll see different versions of diet, um, leading up to ceremony. Katie Simons: Um, and it really makes you realize how much food and the things that you put in your mouth are medicine too. Um, it it, there's an awareness piece that I think is really powerful, especially for Americans because there's just a lot of stuff we eat that's not real food. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Lot of, lot Katie Simons: Um, and so I think that the opportunity there is is very different for Americans coming into ceremony for the first time than it is someone who's, you know, deep in the jungle and, um, eating whole foods all the time and going into a month long, like De of Ayahuasca. Katie Simons: So, uh, I do think it, it va you'll see some variation there and the value changes depending on where you are. Um, Matt Kosterman: You, where do you go to work with it? Generally the same place each, each time, or you've, or you've been all over. Katie Simons: all over, um, mostly Costa Rica, but then a lot in the US too. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: Um, mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Um, I think it's, it's, it's so interesting. I first had heard about Ayahuasca again, it was my brother back probably 2010. And at the time I was deep into my shit. and I researched it and it was, you know, oh, you know, first of all it was all the bat, oh, it tastes terrible and you're gonna vomit and you're gonna have, you know, prof, profuse, diarrhea. uh, I think it's so funny these things that, that we throw up as, as objections, because those are all such minor parts of the experience. I don't know if that's been your, was your experience as well. How do you. Katie Simons: It depends on the ceremony. There have been the, there have been ceremonies where that, yeah, I don't always perch, but the, there are have been ceremonies where that is the all encompassing thing. Matt Kosterman: Mm mm Katie Simons: Of the ceremony. And, um, I think it really goes back to heal, like healing is an initiation. And we live in a society that we don't have initiations anymore. Katie Simons: We don't have initiations into adulthood or into motherhood or fatherhood or, you know, these big transitions in life. There's, they just have, they, they happen because we all get older. But, um, I think that the discomforts that come sometimes with ceremonies, like with medicines like ayahuasca, are an opportunity to. Katie Simons: Sit with things that are challenging and realize how powerful we are, how much capacity we have, and that we don't need to be afraid of discomfort or challenge. And, um, even saying that is gonna turn some people off Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: and that's okay. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Katie Simons: I think that there's a huge opportunity in that, um, because I think, Matt Kosterman: yeah, Katie Simons: yeah. Matt Kosterman: that about the initiation. I mean, I, I've, I've harped on that, like the closest thing that's probably there in the religious traditions is like, um, you know, a bar and bat mitzvah and the Jewish faith, um, you know, a confirmation. but it's nothing like, you know, they do with like Sundance and the Native Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: and, the, the indigenous people, what they do, for their. Their initiations. And it's a big, I mean, I remember my own, you know, going off to getting ready to go off to college and it was just like, I came out of a movie and I was like sweating profusely and I couldn't figure out what was going on. And I, when I look back on it, I was terrified. 'cause there had been, it was just, you just sort of fell from childhood into teenager, into adulthood. And that's just how we've chosen to do things, especially in this country. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. But you see people carrying around this backpack full of rocks that is their past and is conditioning and it causes suffering. And it's, it's taking the rocks out of the backpack, does take work and sometimes is very challenging and uncomfortable. And you know, li life is the real ceremony. My life will teach you things if you're paying attention and willing to do the hard thing that you may not want to do. Katie Simons: And I think ceremony in with medicine is simply a mirror of that. It's a place where you can, in a very consolidated, um, and intense experience, look at all of that, and then allow your body to process and purge what it needs to. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. So the, yeah, as the, the medicine journey, as this sort of microcosmic, uh, journey of, within life Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: as an, as an initiation, as a, showing you, you can do hard things. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I mean, I think, you know, drinking the eye on the first night was tough, but drinking on the second night, what the whole lot tougher. Katie Simons: Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: looking at it going, oh really? We're gonna do this again. Oh, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: There are definitely lots of nights where I'm like, wow, I'm, I'm back here. I'm doing this again. Fascinating. Matt Kosterman: Fascinating. Katie Simons: fascinating. Uh, um, but I do, I do think that, uh, some of the shadow pieces of, of medicine work, especially that, that I've watched happen to people is they get, um, very attached to, may I even say, addicted to going to medicine to have an experience or to get an answer. Katie Simons: And they, and there's a failure to translate that into life. And it's like if this and, and there that, um, that's a very sticky place. It's a very sticky place. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: been guilty of that over the course of the last eight years. I mean, it's, it's an easy, it's an easy place to get to. You just think, you know. I'll just do another, another trip. We'll go see what happens with the MDMA and you can kind of get the same answers Katie Simons: You over and over and over again. Why, why are you back here? The answer is the same. Matt Kosterman: That's the same. Yeah, Katie Simons: can choose to make a change in life or, Matt Kosterman: Right, Katie Simons: to not, or you know, but at some point you have seen all the things that are holding you back. I, Matt Kosterman: right. Katie Simons: and it's a decision. Matt Kosterman: at, and at at some point though, it, it, it feels to me like it becomes, I mean, we go back, going back to the very first thing you said about the nervous system regulation, like there's a level of the nerve where the nervous system has to be onboard. Katie Simons: Yes. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I mean, and I'm, I'm sort of running up against that in my own life these days. Matt Kosterman: It's like, there's some things that I want to do and, and there's a story that it's gotta be hard. And my nervous system is like, fuck, I want hard. Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Matt Kosterman: so there, there's work there, which I'm, which I have planned around that to, to continue to, and, and it's like, I don't know what, I don't know. I just Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I know that there's more Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: to be had Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I'm, you know, like, it doesn't have to be like a walk in the park. Matt Kosterman: But I've done a lot of hard, and I've Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: told, like, it doesn't have to be hard, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: my body's like, no, it has to be hard. It's Katie Simons: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: and Katie Simons: yeah, Matt Kosterman: fuck, Katie Simons: yeah. Wait, and that brings us back to subconscious work where, you know, again, tools to access what's below the level of consciousness. Where does this belief come from? That things have to be hard Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: and how that's holding your body back because your body is wired when, as a mammal to say, we're, we're not gonna do that. Katie Simons: That's something to be scared of. And so having places and tools where you can access those subconscious. Layers or is just as important in making change. 'cause you can have an awareness and say like, oh, I need to do this, and then try to do it and try to do it and try to do it. You're just fighting yourself. Katie Simons: But it's like at some point when you were three, something happened and that's been internalized into a belief system that's now telling your nervous system not to do that 'cause it's not safe. Matt Kosterman: Right, right. Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yep. Yep. And it, it goes back to the whole, you know, you, where did you study the hypnotherapy? Through what Katie Simons: Um, HCH Institute out of the Bay Area, which I, I highly recommend to anyone who wants to do a transpersonal hypnotherapy program. Um mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Marissa Pier who does the RTT and Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: you know, there's the three or four sort of core beliefs. I'm, I'm not allowed, I'm not enough, Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, you know, and I can, I can trace some, I can trace it all back to that. But again, it's at the level of the body. Matt Kosterman: And so is this where something like hypnotherapy comes, comes into play to, to rewire the subconscious beliefs? Katie Simons: Yeah. Uh, to reframe them. Yeah. It, and I think that it's a very powerful tool for that, and hypnotherapy kind of has this really large umbrella of all these techniques that can fall underneath that. But really what you're doing, regardless of the methodology that, you know, IRTT, I think is a little more structured with a lot of scripts. Katie Simons: Um, whereas how I was trained is first step is internal resourcing. Who's driving your ship and getting in touch with that piece of. What I would call soul. Some people may call it future self. Some people may call it wise self or healed self. However you conceptualize that there is a part of you that has the answers. Katie Simons: It's not me who has the answers. And that's, that's the whole point of hypnotherapy, is your exploration of your self in a way where there's safety and enough questions to prompt a story to unravel. And at the level of lower brainwaves. So we're getting out of beta cognitive brainwave thinking and into more of an alpha meditative or theta, um, brainwave state where it's like your imagination. Katie Simons: It's more of like a dream state. Um, and answers and insights come through and it, and sometimes there's emotional imprints from the past that we can then go back and reframe. We can go back and, and. Change the emotional imprint of a thing that happened so that it's not, it doesn't have power over you anymore. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And it's fascinating to me the layers of this stuff. 'cause I've been doing this like you for, for quite a while and, you know, and you get to this point where it's just like, oh fuck, really? Like, it's that, it's that thing again. But it's, Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: it's that thing in another way, Katie Simons: Yeah. Peeling an onion. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. It's like, oh, oh yeah. Oh, that, like rom dos calls 'em little schmooze, right. Yeah. You think, oh, there's that little schmo again. Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And I think he, he famously said, you know, he, you know, here he is, this, you know, all had done all of this work and India and Maji and all those psychedelics. And he said, just as neurotic as when I started. The neuroses are all still there. It's, it's, I think it's like, you know, I had this expectation that they would all be gone as well going into this. Katie Simons: Yeah, it, Matt Kosterman: sort of have less power. Katie Simons: yeah, it's, it's like you have a relationship with something that you can see, 'cause now you can see it. Right now I can see my inner child, or my inner teenager, or my inner rebel, or however you conceptualize your parts. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Katie Simons: I can see it, which means I can now have a relationship with it, which means I can recognize when it's at the surface and then say, what do you need? Katie Simons: What do I, what do you need from me? And how do I fulfill my own need here and hold this part of myself so that I still have access to my choice and it's not hijacking me to, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really being able to slow things down, Katie Simons: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: and then it can, and then it speeds up, right? I mean, initially it's like a really slowing it down, really tuning in but you can't, in the face of everything that comes at you, you can't always be saying, okay, let's stop and talk to everybody. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Everybody. Is everybody here? Katie Simons: Yep, exactly. But you can recognize when you lost that, um, you lost that awareness and that access to choice. Oh, I did this thing automatically that I, and where, what was that and where does it come from? And, and there, there, that self-exploration has to take place retrospectively. This is how we learn, but the more we do it, the less it takes over. Matt Kosterman: to do it. And yeah. Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: in do, and doing it with, you know, loving kindness Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: it with that the old, like that old voice that used to be that old beating me up voice is, is very, very quiet Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, know, oh, you fucked up again. And oh, you know, it's, it's more to your point of, okay, oh, I did this thing. Matt Kosterman: I said I wasn't gonna do this thing, Katie Simons: Uh, Matt Kosterman: know, let's not do this thing. Katie Simons: yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Katie Simons: What does that thing represent that I need? Because it's not, it's not the thing you did, it's not, you know, it's something, something different and it can be that need can be worked with. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So that, that, which, that, it's never the need. That reminds me of this old, uh, video from the internet of this man and this woman. And she had a giant nail sticking out of the front of her, her forehead Katie Simons: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: and, um. All the guy wanted to do was figure out how to get the nail out. And she's like, it's not about the nail and the whole thing. He's like, but he's looking at it and he is. So, which, which brings me to the question, do you, do you do work with couples at all? Katie Simons: I haven't, outside of the ceremonial context, I'll do, um, couples journeys, but with my partner. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Katie Simons: 'cause I do think that when working with at least couples of the opposite gender, that having both the masculine and the feminine present is really important. Um Matt Kosterman: So you, and you and your partner have, will do journeys for couples. Katie Simons: Yeah. We'll facilitate together. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: together. Yeah. Um, yeah, to have the balance, the, the energy balance, I. Katie Simons: Because I, yeah, it's, it's really nice when I get to hold the feminine. 'cause I know that that's my role and what I do best and allow him to hold the masculine energy and, um, yeah. So that's how we do that. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Beautiful. Well, awesome. Amazing. This was such a great conversation. Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I love all the little turns we take with it Katie Simons: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: and, Katie Simons: you very much. Matt Kosterman: yeah. Uh, it'll be in the, um, the, the writeup, but I just want people to know how they can reach you. And the, the website is the holistic apo Katie Simons: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: how do you say it? Katie Simons: Apathic. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: So the holistic A-P-O-T-H-E c.com is how you can get ahold of Katie should you wish to explore this magical world even further. Katie Simons: Yeah, absolutely. We're all just walking this path together. Matt Kosterman: yeah, we are. Um, well thank you Katie. Katie Simons: Thank you, Matt. Matt Kosterman: Uh, I will, uh, look forward to this airing. Katie Simons: Me too. Matt Kosterman: Be well. Katie Simons: You too.