Latest / Easy Double podcast / Cam Levins: No Stone Left Unturned: 2:05 Area Record, Nike Oregon Project, 'Easy Triples', the marathon mentality, going all In & Tokyo World Championships goals

Transcript

Cam Levins: No Stone Left Unturned: 2:05 Area Record, Nike Oregon Project, 'Easy Triples', the marathon mentality, going all In & Tokyo World Championships goals · Easy Double podcast

• 0:30
  Welcome back to the Easy Double podcast.
• 0:33
  Today, we have quite the treat. Our guest is one of the most
• 0:37
  exceptional endurance athletes on the planet right now, and I
• 0:41
  say exceptional in reference to both his running performances
• 0:44
  and to what he's been able to produce in training.
• 0:48
  He is the current North American record holder in the marathon,
• 0:51
  which is from his 20536 clocking at the Tokyo 2023 marathon, and
• 0:56
  it's the Canadian record holder for the half marathon where he
• 0:59
  ran 6018 on home soil in the build up to the aforementioned
• 1:02
  Tokyo Marathon. Arguably though, for running
• 1:06
  enough, he's like myself. He's perhaps even more well
• 1:09
  known for his leading role in what I think is the best driven
• 1:12
  series produced by Flow Track. Welcome to the Easy Double
• 1:15
  podcast, Cam Levens. Thank you.
• 1:18
  Yeah. Thank you for having me.
• 1:19
  It's a pleasure. Thank you for the kind words.
• 1:21
  Cam, thanks so much for for agreeing to come on mention a
• 1:23
  little bit off air, but Owen, Ryan and I are just huge, huge
• 1:28
  fans of of yours. I mean it it is from afar.
• 1:31
  We're sort of spread across the UK island and Australia.
• 1:34
  So we sort of catch what we can through be it Instagram or or
• 1:38
  live streams of races or what we can catch on YouTube.
• 1:41
  But certainly followed your journey, you know, albeit from
• 1:46
  a, from a distance, in terms of physical distance, but get
• 1:50
  pretty inspired by sort of what you've done and, and pretty
• 1:53
  inspired by your story. I'm pretty thrilled to be able
• 1:56
  to, to, to talk to you today just to learn a bit about your
• 1:59
  secrets in terms of both what performances you've been able to
• 2:02
  do, but also what you've been able to do in training and
• 2:05
  perhaps what you've learned. I'm 37, I understand you're 36.
• 2:09
  You sort of have spent some years sort of running now and so
• 2:15
  yeah, there's a lot of questions around what you've, what you've
• 2:17
  learnt with your training and sort of the secret to your
• 2:19
  longevity and the secret to your success.
• 2:21
  OK, perhaps so perhaps, sorry Cam, but yeah, perhaps just to
• 2:27
  set the scene before we sort of get do a bit of a walk through
• 2:29
  time, we're just over 2 weeks out from the Tokyo World Champs,
• 2:34
  the marathon, I think it's like day three of the World Champs,
• 2:37
  so pretty early in the schedule. Presumably you're in your final
• 2:41
  Are you looking to start your taper, or are you still sort of
• 2:44
  carrying some pretty heavy training load?
• 2:45
  What's that looking like? I'm pretty, pretty damn close,
• 2:49
  Yeah, I think I have probably just a couple, well, still a
• 2:54
  decent workout this weekend and then probably lower volume
• 2:57
  workouts as I go along. And then probably a week and a
• 3:00
  half out, I'll probably start lowering volume as well.
• 3:03
  I generally just go back through my training log to sort of
• 3:07
  double check exactly what I've done previously and sort of try
• 3:09
  and follow that plan and depending on how I'm feeling,
• 3:12
  whether I do it more sharply or less.
• 3:15
  So I'm probably going to be a little more careful tapering
• 3:18
  into this one just with how hot I think it's going to be.
• 3:21
  Just like there's the heat training aspect that I need to
• 3:23
  keep up on the same time. So that can be, I feel like a
• 3:26
  prune all the time right now with all the heat training.
• 3:29
  But yeah, no, we're, we're kind of, I've done all the work
• 3:32
  basically it's just kind of the last sort of tune up stuff at
• 3:34
  this point. And the workout you're
• 3:36
  referencing for this weekend is that time at sort of marathon
• 3:38
  efforts? Yeah, I I believe it's K with 20
• 3:44
  of it at marathon base. I'll pull it up here to make
• 3:48
  sure. My coach sent me by week.
• 3:51
  So I just go through. Let's see.
• 3:53
  Yep. 8K warm up, 20 at marathon pace, 4K cool down.
• 3:56
  Keep it nice and simple in that regard.
• 3:59
  And and will that do you, do you run to heart rate or anything
• 4:02
  like that when you're you're sort of doing that workout or to
• 4:04
  feel or you just sort of dial into what you think is sort of
• 4:08
  you'd be pretty dialed in terms of what you think is the right
• 4:10
  pace right now? Yeah, generally speaking, I do
• 4:13
  it off feel I've been using heart rate more for my treadmill
• 4:18
  and heat heat training. So I was just keeping track with
• 4:22
  that. But generally speaking I don't I
• 4:24
  haven't used heart breaks much as much for tracking.
• 4:28
  Yeah, I pretty much just like start the workout kind of like
• 4:31
  this is what I know of marathon pace feels like, and then like,
• 4:35
  you know, a couple kilometers and I sort of look at my watch
• 4:39
  and go like, OK, what pace am I going?
• 4:41
  You know, and it's like, if that's like what it is, I
• 4:44
  generally try and keep in that area.
• 4:45
  I I really work hard not to. I mean, it's really easy to do
• 4:50
  this, to force it, like really force the pace for the marathon.
• 4:54
  You don't want to be doing that 42 K.
• 4:58
  You can't be forcing it early. And it's like so easy to get
• 5:01
  overly focused on the pace and not not running inter relaxed
• 5:07
  sort of way conserving as much energy as possible.
• 5:11
  That makes a lot of sense now in terms of the weather at the
• 5:14
  moment. You mentioned heat training.
• 5:15
  I can see a fan in the background sort of here in
• 5:18
  Perth, Australia. It's like about 12° at the
• 5:21
  minute. So pretty cool.
• 5:22
  I'm assuming it's, oh, sorry, and that's Celsius, but what,
• 5:26
  what, what's the sort of temperature or what sort of
• 5:28
  training? Is it quite warm?
• 5:29
  It's summer, summer back home and you're you're probably
• 5:32
  naturally just getting fairly well acclimated.
• 5:35
  Yeah, Portland has been, I would say, well, we've had some heat
• 5:40
  waves as well where it's been getting up to like mid 30s as
• 5:44
  well. But I would say anywhere from
• 5:46
  like mid to high 20s and up. I mean, obviously most of what
• 5:51
  I'm looking and living in the States also is Fahrenheit, but I
• 5:54
  kind of jump back and forth a little bit at this point being
• 5:57
  Canadian. Yeah, of course, I appreciate
• 6:00
  it. I appreciate the conversion to
• 6:02
  kilometers as well between miles and.
• 6:07
  It's funny for marathon training, like there's so much
• 6:11
  like basing everything off 3 minute kilometers, I think just
• 6:15
  makes it so much easier than like thinking about 5 minute
• 6:18
  miles I think is well, it's just obviously slower as well.
• 6:22
  But like having that as kind of your barrier to lock on to.
• 6:25
  I think it's beneficial honestly, alongside like you
• 6:29
  just get that information more frequently.
• 6:32
  Like every kilometer is just like you're, you're updated a
• 6:34
  bit more often, for better or worse.
• 6:37
  You're preaching to the converted.
• 6:39
  We have a segment on the podcast called Double Trouble where we
• 6:42
  might have a bit of a spicy take on thing and on things.
• 6:45
  And one of them has been in the past that how dare I say
• 6:49
  irrelevant miles are, you know, kilometers are so neat.
• 6:52
  So yeah, no, definitely with you.
• 6:54
  And I mean at your pace at 3 minute K pace for a marathon, is
• 6:57
  it, it makes sense. It's simpler, simpler, more
• 6:59
  feedback. So yeah, no, we're, we share,
• 7:02
  share that enthusiasm. We normally just start with a
• 7:07
  few short sort of quick fire Q&A just as a, as a bit of an ice
• 7:11
  breaker. I've got a one of my best mates
• 7:13
  actually lives in Canada. So he sort of helped me out with
• 7:15
  this, but off the back, Yeah. Grab your thoughts on these, but
• 7:22
  Starbucks or Tim Horton's? Tim Horton's, Yeah.
• 7:27
  Protein or Maple doughnut? Maple doughnut.
• 7:31
  Do you listen to anything while you will you run?
• 7:34
  Be it podcasts or or song playlists.
• 7:39
  Yeah, a bit of both. I do a lot of, well, most of my
• 7:44
  trainings by myself. So it really depends what I'm
• 7:47
  doing, but often if I'm really not feeling it, I put something
• 7:51
  on before I go. I'm just like, oh, I just need
• 7:54
  something to distract myself from this.
• 7:58
  But yeah, I mean, I do a couple of different things.
• 8:01
  Sometimes I still listen to Revisionist History or more
• 8:08
  often than not though, I'm just listening to music.
• 8:10
  But for like really long tempos and stuff, I'm actually more
• 8:14
  likely to listen to a podcast because the songs you get to a
• 8:19
  point where you're like, I know how long this is and you start
• 8:22
  counting out how many songs you have left for rapper like for
• 8:27
  the workouts. So then it starts becoming its
• 8:29
  own thing of like, oh, this isn't distracting.
• 8:31
  It's just like now I'm like numbering how many songs I have
• 8:36
  instead of kilometers basically. I, I thought so I find like easy
• 8:41
  running, listening to podcasts, a great escape, but when I'm
• 8:44
  doing some form of workout, I find I need to engage.
• 8:49
  And so I find music with a high cadence quite helpful.
• 8:52
  I, I, I'm a little bit shocked to hear that you like that
• 8:56
  you'll listen to a podcast where you're doing like a tempo
• 8:58
  workout. Yeah, not like super often, but
• 9:02
  occasionally, yeah. I mean, I, I same.
• 9:04
  I would never do it for interval work by any means.
• 9:08
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, occasionally, like if I'm,
• 9:11
  if coach has me go like, well, something like tomorrow, I
• 9:16
  probably won't for tomorrow. But like, basically, you know,
• 9:18
  if I'm going for an hour, sometimes it's like just
• 9:21
  anything to Get Me Out of this by myself, yeah.
• 9:24
  That's impressive. We have a segment called YouTube
• 9:27
  Diaries. Do you have any sort of YouTube
• 9:29
  channels that you that you might surf?
• 9:30
  Be it running or non running related?
• 9:35
  Hmm, well mostly what I watch on YouTube right now is just John
• 9:38
  Oliver's Late Show. Like every every Monday, I'm
• 9:43
  following up on that, but other channels that I follow
• 9:46
  frequently, not loads. Yeah, more, more music and
• 9:51
  stuff. I would say at this point, yeah,
• 9:53
  Big, big John Oliver fan. And then the the last one is
• 9:56
  probably applies more if when you're running in Canada.
• 9:58
  But have you encountered any crazy wildlife while on a run?
• 10:02
  Beer a bear, wolf, cougar 4 legged variety.
• 10:06
  Well, yeah, back home in Canada, I definitely lived in a real
• 10:09
  forested area where those were concerns.
• 10:11
  I've never ran to a cougar, amazingly, even though there's
• 10:14
  been lots in our I I'm from Vancouver Island and there's
• 10:18
  just not huge population where I grew up.
• 10:21
  But yeah, I have seen bears. But I mean, I shouldn't say
• 10:28
  that's it, but that that has been the main thing, yeah.
• 10:32
  It's yeah, We get a few snakes down here on a few of the lakes
• 10:36
  we run around. Fairly deadly.
• 10:37
  Yeah. Surf, read it quite a bit and
• 10:39
  like, I swear there's a lot of Australia on there all the time.
• 10:42
  Just like crazy, crazy wildlife. Yeah, in the in the ocean, like
• 10:49
  in the water, it's probably worse than on land.
• 10:51
  We're sort of apart from little things that you can generally
• 10:54
  avoid, but it's not too bad. Maybe the further.
• 10:57
  Like the giant, like Huntsman spiders, they're like, yeah, the
• 11:00
  whole wall. Yeah.
• 11:02
  I mean, like they. Sorry, go ahead.
• 11:05
  No, they they're huge, but they're not, they're not
• 11:09
  venomous. So they'll scare you, but
• 11:11
  they're not gonna. They're not gonna kill you.
• 11:13
  Yeah, great. They're not.
• 11:14
  A huge spider fan so. So maybe in terms of growing up,
• 11:18
  how did you find, how did you find running?
• 11:21
  Where did? Where did it start?
• 11:24
  So I have been doing this for a real long time at this point.
• 11:27
  I, I, I did my first cross country race in second grade and
• 11:31
  I placed, I even remember this, I placed 11th because we were
• 11:34
  allowed to like run up with the third graders.
• 11:36
  I was like, we're able to do like the last cross country race
• 11:38
  of the year, Like they let us run with them.
• 11:41
  And I lost to my next door neighbor or like he's finished
• 11:44
  10th right in front of me. And then for the next six years,
• 11:49
  I think I placed second to him. We're first and 2nd for like
• 11:53
  just, yeah, for forever, just in everything.
• 11:56
  I was always right behind him until 8th grade finally.
• 12:03
  Yeah, it was. But that was, well, that was my
• 12:05
  start. And actually it was great having
• 12:09
  someone, well, having like someone I was super active with,
• 12:12
  like he was really into it as well.
• 12:13
  So that was that was fun. But yeah, I got my start real
• 12:17
  early and then joined a track club in 7th grade and started
• 12:23
  doing like some actual training. And I think that's really what
• 12:26
  led to me then ultimately beating him getting more into
• 12:29
  the sport as well, getting into bigger events.
• 12:32
  And you know, and obviously has some success with it starting
• 12:36
  out. And like that's just, you know,
• 12:38
  as a kid, if you're good at something, you want to do more
• 12:41
  of it. So that's, that's kind of how
• 12:44
  things began for me. And I just eventually decided
• 12:47
  that I wanted to go on to the NCAA and.
• 12:51
  Yeah, Yeah. So, so perhaps on that like I've
• 12:55
  read it a little bit about sort of the the college you chose.
• 13:01
  I think I might have read there was you you you were sort of so
• 13:04
  you obviously were loved running in highs high school.
• 13:08
  But then in terms of applying for colleges, it's quite
• 13:13
  competitive. And was it right that the, the,
• 13:15
  the DIF one school that offered you a, a scholarship was the one
• 13:19
  that you sort of chose and sort of how was that process?
• 13:22
  Did you sort of the standards you were running for whatever
• 13:25
  event you sort of got a, got a gig with that was what sort of
• 13:28
  sort of is it Southern Utah? That's what that was the school
• 13:32
  that offered you a the sort of best opportunity.
• 13:35
  Yeah, I mean, I I had other offers, not many from Division
• 13:41
  One universities, but it was definitely alongside like
• 13:47
  financially making sense, don't like the right fit from other
• 13:51
  things. At the at the time I was very
• 13:53
  interested in geology. You know, it was a good program
• 13:55
  for that from a training standpoint.
• 13:57
  It was that altitude for being a small program university, they
• 14:02
  were having quite a bit of success.
• 14:04
  They had a guy just place third across country nationals like
• 14:09
  the year before I was coming in. So they're in a really good
• 14:12
  place from that standpoint. And just, yeah, I went for my
• 14:15
  visit was like, yeah, this this is the right place for me.
• 14:19
  And like, you know, everything gelled from that standpoint.
• 14:23
  But yeah, I coming out of high school put my, well, going into
• 14:28
  my final year of high school, I guess I should say, we put my
• 14:31
  sort of times profile onto like a recruiting website and like a
• 14:36
  lot of universities were able to sort of reach out to me through
• 14:38
  this. OK.
• 14:41
  Yeah, No, I, I just, that's kind of how that process worked at
• 14:45
  that time, kind of the earlier days of the Internet and stuff
• 14:49
  almost at this point. Yeah, I'll probably get to that
• 14:53
  because it is quite, it's such a different time between what it
• 14:56
  is sort of now and and what the selection process would have
• 14:59
  been like around, you know, circa 2007.
• 15:02
  So yeah, that's I find that, you know, really interesting.
• 15:08
  A question I had you I think thought that perhaps you made in
• 15:13
  an exercise science is that. So you didn't?
• 15:16
  Go down there, yeah. No, so I, I started going down
• 15:20
  the geology road and I just really struggled with chemistry.
• 15:24
  Actually, that was as I went into it.
• 15:25
  I'm just like just not was not my cup of tea, which has some
• 15:30
  irony in, in that my now wife, but I mean, she's a couple years
• 15:34
  younger than me. She is a major in chemistry and
• 15:38
  now as a pharmacist as well. So I was like, you know, if I
• 15:41
  met her right away out of, you know, she was also a freshman
• 15:44
  when I was a freshman, maybe she would have helped me out this
• 15:47
  program. But at the time, no, it just
• 15:50
  didn't end up being the right fit for what I felt like I could
• 15:52
  do unfortunately. But yeah, I went exercise
• 15:56
  science and I have, I feel like I've used it in a way as a
• 16:01
  professional athlete. I definitely use it in a way,
• 16:03
  but not in really how I was sort of intending, I guess if this
• 16:08
  was not, you know, going into into college, I don't think I
• 16:12
  had any thoughts of being a well, I didn't even know what
• 16:14
  being a professional athlete in this sport meant actually, so.
• 16:20
  Yeah, dare I say, like selfishly, we're probably all
• 16:23
  going to benefit from the fact that you've done a degree in
• 16:26
  exercise science, because I would assume that you've applied
• 16:29
  some of those learnings, or at least as you're trying to sort
• 16:32
  of solve your own Riddle in terms of self improvement,
• 16:35
  you're probably using some of the concepts that have come
• 16:38
  through the education. I'd like to think so.
• 16:41
  Yeah, certainly. And you're, I've saw that you
• 16:45
  credited in terms of improvement.
• 16:48
  Do you do you recall what times you were running in in high
• 16:50
  school in terms of when you started in the NCAA system?
• 16:54
  Yeah, coming out of high school I did a four minute 1500, a
• 17:04
  8453K, 80158I think, and no track 5 KS and 10 KS.
• 17:18
  But also I had a road 8K that was like 25 mid or something.
• 17:24
  And I think really interested. Well, just like with that being
• 17:27
  kind of the distance for a lot of cross country, that I think
• 17:30
  showed interest to the coach as well.
• 17:33
  And the coach is it Eric? Is is it Who?
• 17:36
  Exactly right, yeah. And so you credit so there I
• 17:40
  read somewhere that you've credited Eric and or coach Hall
• 17:43
  and the NCAA system just for sort of what saw your fairly
• 17:48
  dramatic improvements in, you know, during your college years.
• 17:52
  Anything in particular that's that sort of stood out that why
• 17:56
  that sort of like allowed you to sort of evolve from those times
• 18:00
  into, you know, towards the end of your college times
• 18:04
  representing Canada at the Olympics?
• 18:06
  Well, I mean, a lot of things certainly, but I would say
• 18:15
  there's the standpoint of where I was the high school or just
• 18:23
  didn't really have a like super like consistent, like
• 18:33
  full-fledged training program kind of thing.
• 18:35
  Like it was just me and like this one guy, Darren Scuja's
• 18:43
  name was coaching me. Like we like I did the best I
• 18:49
  could with that, but you know, there's no, no training partners
• 18:52
  or anything. And like I'd only really just
• 18:57
  started mileage outside of just like track workouts in my last
• 19:03
  couple years of high school. And so like, in a lot of ways, I
• 19:07
  was just really kind of under trained.
• 19:11
  And so, yeah, coming into a program which was like really
• 19:14
  regimented and, you know, had this focus on, OK, like you need
• 19:19
  to get up to this weekly mileage as we're coming into college.
• 19:23
  There's no mean, I don't think there was any real talk of how
• 19:27
  much I was running per week in high school besides like doing
• 19:30
  some easy runs and stuff. So there's that aspect going up
• 19:33
  into altitude this huge. I grew up in at sea level and
• 19:38
  had no thoughts or experiences with that at all.
• 19:42
  And yeah, I mean, like each year it felt like we'd get to the end
• 19:49
  of it and be like, all right, what are we doing differently
• 19:51
  this next year to try and like pushed me farther.
• 19:54
  And it was like each year I felt like we were stacking on more
• 19:57
  and more and more. And I kept having improvement
• 20:02
  each year until ultimately as a senior, I had the most success.
• 20:07
  I could, you know, I could have imagined going into, into high
• 20:10
  school. But yeah, it was really very
• 20:12
  gradual process in honesty and. And it's how did you like like
• 20:18
  so so a lot of there's a consistent theme of asking about
• 20:21
  the triple, triple run days. Did that form, did that that
• 20:25
  come out of that? And sort of how did you, because
• 20:28
  I've my own running journey, I went from single run days or
• 20:32
  running six days a week. I finally learned to run seven
• 20:34
  days a week. I then started introducing 30
• 20:36
  minute double days. Like it's a it's a real and it's
• 20:39
  a bit trial and error in terms of how your body responds to
• 20:42
  mileage. And recovering after workouts is
• 20:45
  so hard as well. And it's not like you're so
• 20:47
  you're doing high mileage, but you're also you're a track
• 20:49
  runner as well. So the, the the load that
• 20:51
  you're, and this is pre super shoes.
• 20:54
  So yeah, I'm just, I'm so interested to hear how you were
• 20:57
  able to do it. Yeah.
• 20:59
  So it's funny you say that. Yeah, coming into college, my
• 21:02
  first year, same thing. Yeah.
• 21:04
  Running six days a week. And then going into my next
• 21:07
  year, started running every day. And then, yeah, starting to put
• 21:11
  in more double s, similar kind of idea, kind of a shorter
• 21:14
  double as well. And then into my next year, I
• 21:20
  think my mileage, let's see, would have been like maybe 60 to
• 21:25
  70 miles. I should, I should say first
• 21:28
  year as a freshman and then 80 to 90.
• 21:32
  And then as a junior I jumped up, I want to say to about 100.
• 21:37
  And then red shirt was like 120 to 130.
• 21:41
  And then as a senior was the 1:50 to 160.
• 21:44
  And that's when I began to triple.
• 21:46
  Yeah, the tripling came about because because I want to like
• 21:50
  still maintain quality in my track workouts.
• 21:53
  So I was kind of like, well, if I start running too much at
• 21:57
  once, I think it'll put like kind of extra pounding basically
• 22:03
  out of time. And I think like the tracks when
• 22:05
  I'm able to do on the track. And so also alongside that like
• 22:09
  built in higher triple days and then lower mileage days as well
• 22:13
  to try and kind of offload and sort of like reset during the
• 22:17
  week. So it's like I was able to kind
• 22:19
  of you're like, OK, we're working out these days, that
• 22:22
  means I can put higher days on ones that like are easier
• 22:27
  running and like still sort of recover off that as well.
• 22:30
  So it became kind of a balance as far as that goes because
• 22:33
  like, yeah, I wanted to still have a lot of quality.
• 22:36
  But when I first started tripling and was doing workouts
• 22:42
  at the same time, like the focus at that point was just almost
• 22:45
  completely about mileage and just being like, OK, this is my
• 22:49
  workout. I'm not like going to track how
• 22:52
  fast I'm doing this. I'm just like putting in the
• 22:55
  volume of the workout, running hard and like it just took time
• 23:01
  to adapt. Basically it's where I was like,
• 23:03
  OK, now I'm feeling good running my full mileage and not feeling
• 23:06
  exhausted doing this workouts like and the quality is there.
• 23:10
  But yeah, like there's an adaptation period to all of this
• 23:15
  stuff. And yeah, without super shoes is
• 23:17
  it's like almost difficult to believe now that like that I was
• 23:22
  able to handle it so well. But yeah, it's just like it was
• 23:25
  all really, really gradual build up into it.
• 23:28
  But it's almost, almost easy to do that sort of stuff now with
• 23:31
  super shoes like coming as far as recovery goes.
• 23:35
  Yep, and it what and in terms of recovering were you prioritizing
• 23:39
  sleep SNCII? Remember in the Driven, one of
• 23:43
  the driven videos, you're running to get a massage as well
• 23:45
  and you being a a real advocate for getting regular work done.
• 23:50
  Yeah, that that was AI think huge component to being able to
• 23:53
  stay healthy and like recovering well, as I was getting super
• 23:58
  regular massage and chiro work with a guy, Dutch Workman who
• 24:04
  but also lived in Cedar City. Yeah, I was just me.
• 24:08
  I I would say daily almost you know, as as like a senior in
• 24:15
  college. He was great.
• 24:16
  Like if anything was bugging me, just be like, all right, go see
• 24:18
  Dutch and like he'll get me feeling good.
• 24:22
  So like from that standpoint, it felt like I was able to just
• 24:27
  like train as hard as I wanted to and he would fix me.
• 24:32
  No. That's cool.
• 24:34
  Yeah, it was great. Yeah, it was super, super great
• 24:38
  situation. So you laid in, it's obviously
• 24:40
  it is a gradual process, but in through 2009 to 2012, I sort of
• 24:45
  heard your World Athletics profile.
• 24:48
  I can see that you're, you're improved 40 seconds for the 3K
• 24:51
  and you took a minute. I think you went from 1420 ish
• 24:54
  to 1320 ish in the 5K to 2012, which is quite remarkable.
• 25:01
  And it's sort of, I've sort of found a couple of like that 2012
• 25:05
  year seems like quite the, the breakout year, right?
• 25:08
  I've, I've sort of just got a few results I'll rattle off for
• 25:12
  everyone's benefit. But June 2012 is it you
• 25:15
  qualified for the Olympics at the Canadian trials.
• 25:18
  July 2012, you become the N you, you run the NCAA champs.
• 25:24
  Maybe I might pause, sorry, because I've maybe I would like
• 25:27
  to hear just some of those moments and what your, your
• 25:30
  headspace was like because you've sort of you're on a bit
• 25:33
  of a hater at this point, right? Yeah, yeah.
• 25:38
  So I will. I will say going into my senior
• 25:41
  year of college, I felt a sort of desperation in some ways to
• 25:47
  be like, I like, I really this is my last chance to get NCAA
• 25:51
  title. Like, I have to pour everything
• 25:53
  I can into this. And I mean, the Olympics were
• 25:56
  also on my mind, but almost in some regards as a secondary spot
• 26:01
  to what I was doing at that time in college.
• 26:03
  Like, yeah, going through cross country, it was, yeah.
• 26:08
  I think I was like undefeated to our regionals or something and
• 26:15
  you know, placed fourth and then went into indoors, was running
• 26:19
  some good times and start getting into some like big
• 26:23
  races, pro races for the first time as well.
• 26:27
  And then like was 4th and then I was third in the in the five and
• 26:31
  the 3K. And I'm like, like I'm right
• 26:34
  there. And then going into senior year
• 26:36
  or sorry, into my final year outdoors, that's like this is my
• 26:40
  last chance. And it am I right in thinking
• 26:44
  your college hadn't won in NCAA? Yeah, right.
• 26:46
  Yeah. And so there's that part of it
• 26:48
  as well. I'm like, I want to be able to
• 26:50
  give this me not only for myself, but give this to my
• 26:53
  college as well. That is like given me so much,
• 26:56
  you know, an opportunity to come to this place and improve so
• 27:01
  much. I was just like, this is
• 27:05
  important to me, but important to this program as well and to
• 27:07
  my coach. And yeah, at like my breakout
• 27:13
  was really Mount SAC 5K just like it was it was a Dame.
• 27:19
  I don't know, I, it's like I felt so good that I could like
• 27:24
  nobody could get away from me basically and like had a big
• 27:28
  kick and won the race and got Olympic standard.
• 27:32
  And then basically from that moment for the outdoor season, I
• 27:37
  basically felt unbeatable. Like as far as and still blaze
• 27:41
  races go, it just like it all felt easy.
• 27:46
  Like I felt like I could just sort of hang out and I would
• 27:48
  Sprint anybody no matter what they decided to do.
• 27:51
  Like, I just wait as long as I wanted in a race in Sprint,
• 27:54
  which is like super, super cool feeling to this people.
• 27:57
  I feel like I, I have control this race kind of like no matter
• 28:00
  what. And yeah, like, it's just, it
• 28:02
  was kind of like a magical year as far as, you know, getting
• 28:07
  Olympic standard in the 5K one week and then Olympic standard
• 28:10
  in the 10K the next week. And then, you know, going on
• 28:14
  getting a double NCAA championships as well and then
• 28:18
  going on to the Olympics and. 'Cause that, sorry, no, yeah,
• 28:23
  that Mount SAC race, right. I think that's you out kicked
• 28:27
  that, that was a heap of pros that you out kicked and there
• 28:30
  there was, there was comment like Dave McNeil.
• 28:32
  I think there might have been an Aussie in that race.
• 28:34
  Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.
• 28:35
  Yeah, so, yeah. And I think you might have
• 28:38
  closed in like 55 seconds. So you had some pretty like
• 28:41
  serious wheels. Hey, like, you must have been
• 28:43
  feeling like not only are you aerobically super fit, but
• 28:46
  you're you're, you're fast. Yeah, yeah.
• 28:49
  At that time, I felt super, super confident in my speed.
• 28:53
  Yeah. And I spent a lot of time
• 28:56
  working on that as well, like just after every workout, doing
• 29:00
  more Sprint work and work, really working on the form to
• 29:04
  make sure, you know, as efficient as I could be at the
• 29:06
  end of these races. So like everybody knows how
• 29:09
  important that is as far as races go.
• 29:12
  Like you got it, you got to have it.
• 29:15
  So yeah, I spent tons and tons of time working on that.
• 29:18
  And so I was just going to say it as like all the way through
• 29:22
  high school and even my freshman year of college, I just like
• 29:26
  just couldn't figure out a kick and was just losing everything,
• 29:30
  every race, always second or third unless I could just run
• 29:34
  away from the field. And so like once I figured it
• 29:39
  out, it was like I had to such a desire to win as well.
• 29:44
  I was like, I'm so tired of losing that.
• 29:46
  Like there's just like a fire associated with that as well.
• 29:50
  So yeah. And what when you say you've,
• 29:55
  you've figured it out, is that sort of 150 meter sort of F like
• 29:59
  was it, was it what, what was it in particular that you were
• 30:03
  doing at the end of those workouts?
• 30:05
  So part of what I did is I went back to my sprints coach in like
• 30:13
  just like my high school or my yeah, high school sort of track,
• 30:17
  track, field club. And he just like taught me how
• 30:21
  to Sprint. It was just like that, that
• 30:24
  simple. He was like, we're just going to
• 30:25
  do Sprint work. And like, this is how you need
• 30:27
  to move when you want to Sprint. And so like he's like, when you
• 30:31
  get to the end of the race, shift into that, into that form,
• 30:34
  into that kick. And like the moment that he did
• 30:37
  that, it was like, oh, this is like it's easy.
• 30:41
  And he's like, remember that this is a completely different
• 30:44
  system than what you should be using during the rest of your
• 30:46
  race. He's like, so this should not be
• 30:48
  touched. Like you shift over into this
• 30:50
  and you. And it's like every time I got
• 30:56
  the end of a race, that point, I was like, I always remember,
• 30:59
  Remember that I'm like, oh, yeah, I haven't used this.
• 31:02
  I got all the speed that I've been working on.
• 31:04
  And it's like, yeah, once I got going, it's like, I mean, part
• 31:07
  of me was like, look, why didn't you teach me this, you know,
• 31:11
  years ago? But still, I know I was
• 31:15
  grateful. And now, like, alongside, you
• 31:17
  know, spending time working on being fast and then having that
• 31:22
  sort of mental shift and shift in form at the end of races like
• 31:27
  that, that did it. But yes, yeah.
• 31:30
  And then like, yeah, doing 100 meter sprints, especially one
• 31:33
  things I did a lot was I'd start jogging from about 150 meters
• 31:41
  and then like every 25 meters going faster and faster and
• 31:46
  faster until I was just like, you know, flat out when I hit
• 31:49
  like 50 meters left and then just walking back and doing that
• 31:53
  again. So it's just like really besides
• 31:58
  like working on the flat speed, also working on teaching your
• 32:02
  body to go from easy to like super, super hard, like just
• 32:05
  helping with that, that shift you have to make in races too.
• 32:10
  Yeah, just teaching yourself. And so after that NCAA title,
• 32:16
  you went to the London Olympics and you're racing.
• 32:20
  You're going from being the one of or if not the best college
• 32:24
  athlete to I mean the NCAA program to racing the best in
• 32:28
  the world, the likes of Galen, Mo Farah in the five and 10K.
• 32:32
  What was that experience like? Very eye opening for sure.
• 32:37
  Yeah. It just showed me how much I
• 32:39
  still needed to grow, you know, to to race with those sort of
• 32:43
  guys. I mean, they ultimately became
• 32:46
  my teammates as well down the road.
• 32:48
  But yeah, there is that. There is the experience of, I
• 32:53
  mean, just an absolutely unbelievable crowd with Mo Farah
• 32:57
  racing and winning these titles to in London is just like so
• 33:01
  loud, you just like can't even hear yourself think almost,
• 33:06
  which is, yeah, super, super crazy.
• 33:07
  I mean, and something that hasn't been really replicated
• 33:10
  since. I mean, even though there's some
• 33:12
  great crowds for lots of these races, it's just still not that
• 33:16
  level. So yeah, it was a really great
• 33:18
  experience from that standpoint. And also something that I kind
• 33:21
  of because I was at such a high, I also took it for granted, you
• 33:26
  know, everything was going right that season that I, I went
• 33:30
  through the Olympics and I'm like, oh, you know, like I'm
• 33:33
  here for the experience and like next time I'm back, he will be,
• 33:38
  you know, like my Olympics kind of thing.
• 33:42
  But it's funny, I talked with Jenny Simpson at the Olympics.
• 33:48
  I remember this very well. It's stuck with me even now when
• 33:53
  I sort of talked about my feelings on it being like, Oh
• 33:56
  yeah, like I'm here for the experience, like, so that this
• 33:59
  won't be a surprise in the future kind of thing.
• 34:02
  And she's she has talked about how you have to take advantage
• 34:05
  of like every opportunity you don't like you can't take for
• 34:08
  granted that this will be the same in the future kind of
• 34:11
  thing. It's like it's like you have to
• 34:13
  race like this is your only time here, Like this is your only
• 34:16
  opportunity. And I didn't quite, you know,
• 34:19
  young stupid guy didn't play it. Accepted at that time very
• 34:24
  understanding of it, having gone through my own difficulties
• 34:27
  since ultimately spoilers. I missed the 2016 Olympic.
• 34:33
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 34:35
  But at that time, you're like, have you not seen what I've done
• 34:37
  in the last three years? Like what are you talking about?
• 34:40
  Yeah, it's like having a having a bad year.
• 34:43
  What do you mean? Like I just, I keep getting
• 34:44
  better every year, right. So that's, you know, it's silly
• 34:49
  to even think at this point, but you know, if you've only had
• 34:53
  improvement year after year, you kind of just think like, oh,
• 34:56
  well, that's that's the only option, right?
• 34:59
  Like, as long as I keep training more and, you know, things go
• 35:03
  well, like, I'll just keep getting better.
• 35:06
  And and it and it did initially, right.
• 35:09
  So is it 2013 you joined the Nike Oregon project?
• 35:12
  So you've sort of gone from top having this awesome collegiate
• 35:17
  career to then joining what at the time, right, was probably
• 35:21
  the, the, the sort of best program, best professional
• 35:24
  program you could, you could have asked for.
• 35:27
  Yeah, well, the the heater continued at least in the short
• 35:30
  term, right. Yeah, yeah, I certainly had
• 35:35
  still success, you know, as a as a track athlete, that I don't
• 35:38
  think would be an understatement.
• 35:41
  I had improvement in a lot of times and not to the level that
• 35:46
  I I hoped. Not like, you know, how my
• 35:50
  teammates are running, but you know, I, I still got faster at
• 35:53
  some things. I ran a, you know, the 27-O710K
• 35:56
  ultimately had some good races and just never really put it
• 36:01
  together at the World Championships over those next
• 36:04
  few years. But yeah, oh, sorry, go ahead.
• 36:10
  No. Well, yeah, so the World
• 36:12
  Championships perhaps didn't play out as you wanted to, but
• 36:15
  the com com games 20/20/14. Obviously we're all representing
• 36:20
  Commonwealth countries, my Co hosts and yourself.
• 36:23
  So so it's Glasgow 2014. I've seen the the finish.
• 36:29
  That must have been a pretty that must have been a pretty
• 36:31
  exciting race talking about 2012 Olympics.
• 36:34
  But this is the difference between sort of being in the
• 36:37
  race, but you're you're really mixing it up here with the the
• 36:40
  lead group and and making moves. Yeah, yeah, I'd say that that is
• 36:45
  a probably a big highlight of my track career is that
• 36:49
  Commonwealth Games. And yeah, I when I think back on
• 36:53
  an hour, look back at it now, I'm like, man, I wish I'd just
• 36:55
  shut the door on the inside and at least secured myself a
• 36:58
  silver. No, like I thought I had it
• 37:02
  until I didn't, but yeah. And I mean, I was still
• 37:06
  extremely, extremely happy. I mean, it was a very close,
• 37:10
  exciting race. And yeah, I left that
• 37:12
  Commonwealth Games being like, OK, like, you know, things are
• 37:16
  things are on the right track. Like I'm in a really good place.
• 37:19
  Yeah, it's like that. That's what I wanted,
• 37:21
  professional level to really step up in a way that I had as a
• 37:24
  collegiate, being like, OK, I'm sprinting with the best guys
• 37:27
  here and I'm in at the end of a race against good athletes.
• 37:30
  And that was like, at least from a championship standpoint, my
• 37:34
  first time doing that really at an international level.
• 37:37
  Yeah, so you're, you were you got the bronze medal, but 2/10 I
• 37:42
  think perhaps off the off, off gold, right.
• 37:44
  It was, it was the three of you probably daylight to 4th.
• 37:47
  But you guys were you were in front that home straight and
• 37:50
  there's always seems to be room on the track on the inside,
• 37:53
  doesn't it? Like it's remarkable how that
• 37:56
  work. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking I'm
• 37:59
  like, OK, I'll drift out a little bit so it's harder for
• 38:01
  someone to get around the outside of me, but yeah, opened
• 38:05
  up. I mean, there's two guys opened
• 38:06
  up the door on the inside and someone got around the outside
• 38:09
  and on the inside of me. But yes, I think point 1.2 or
• 38:14
  whatever between all of us, yeah, yeah, very, very close
• 38:17
  race, but. Yeah, but what a medal on the
• 38:22
  world stage is still is is pretty cool, right?
• 38:25
  Absolutely. Totally.
• 38:26
  Yeah. I mean, it's easiest nitpick for
• 38:28
  sure at this point. And you mentioned sort of like
• 38:32
  improvement sort of despite being in what in the program
• 38:36
  with the with you know, arguably sort of the best runners in the
• 38:39
  world at the time, that wasn't necessarily working well.
• 38:43
  F for you. Did you go away from the sort of
• 38:45
  the high mileage? Did it?
• 38:46
  Was it something that you maybe found wasn't, yeah, wasn't
• 38:49
  unlocking your potential further to what you're able to do at the
• 38:52
  end of college? Yeah, so coming out of college,
• 38:57
  I initially jumped up to even higher mileage.
• 38:59
  I was running up to like 170 to 180 miles a week my following
• 39:04
  year out of college now. Yeah, just running an absolute
• 39:07
  crap ton. And going into the Oregon
• 39:10
  Project, I was just like, you know, I'm I'm looking for
• 39:14
  another way and play. I just this is this is too much.
• 39:18
  It's wearing on my body a lot already.
• 39:20
  And I'm a young athlete and so, yeah, we reduced mileage really
• 39:26
  like was my in first introduction to weight training
• 39:29
  in a significant way. And like that's something that's
• 39:33
  I've attribute to a lot of my success now is like continuing
• 39:36
  to work on that, especially as I become an older athlete.
• 39:40
  Like it's just you have to you have to work harder on building
• 39:42
  and maintaining muscle mass. Like I was just a fact.
• 39:46
  So yeah, that that was, yeah, I mean, yeah, you, you're right in
• 39:49
  it. But yeah, that was like, I just
• 39:53
  really showed me how weak and unbalanced that I was at that
• 39:57
  time. And the Oregon Project I think
• 39:59
  at that time was a program that's, well, just David
• 40:02
  McHenry, I think kind of in some regards, I don't know whether
• 40:06
  pioneered is the word, but it felt like he was kind of early
• 40:10
  in on that sort of stuff for track athletes.
• 40:13
  I mean, I see seems like everybody's doing it now, which
• 40:15
  is great. And.
• 40:20
  Yeah, just like immediately it was like, oh, I just feel
• 40:24
  better. Like feel smoother, feel
• 40:27
  healthier. Yeah, I was down more around one
• 40:32
  10120 miles per week and just running faster.
• 40:36
  But I was still was sort of finding that towards the end of
• 40:42
  track seasons, I was kind of getting banged up and not
• 40:45
  lasting the full season, which I think was why I was having just
• 40:48
  poor World Championships. It's just I wasn't getting too
• 40:52
  healthy mostly. But being almost games that year
• 40:55
  being different, like I, I did manage to make it that that much
• 41:00
  longer. But yeah, I was just despite
• 41:02
  hitting really, really fast time to do workouts and like finding
• 41:05
  success in some races, I just felt like I was really lacking
• 41:10
  consistency through my seasons. So that's like really my, my
• 41:13
  main complaint. I mean, there's lots of issues
• 41:17
  with the organ project obviously, but I'd say probably
• 41:21
  more than anything else, that's what led to me ultimately
• 41:27
  wanting to leave. I just feel like I was having
• 41:32
  reaching my potential kind of thing.
• 41:34
  And I mean that's culminated still with coming into well,
• 41:42
  let's see. So 2015 after I ran 2O, sorry,
• 41:47
  I'm thinking my marathon, sorry after I ran 27 O 7 for my 10K
• 41:52
  and I had a really good couple of good races indoors as well.
• 41:56
  It was like really looking like a good season to see.
• 41:58
  I fell at the Canadian championships that year, just
• 42:02
  got tripped up from behind, hit the track really hard and
• 42:06
  ultimately got injured from this.
• 42:09
  And we're like, we just had some problems diagnosing it
• 42:12
  basically, or what, what sort of happened.
• 42:15
  But over the course of the next year leading up to the Olympics,
• 42:19
  basically the Oregon Project coaches and well, sports
• 42:25
  psychologist, not really a sports psychologist, Darren
• 42:27
  Treasurer, but we thought he was a sports psychologist, but he
• 42:31
  wasn't basically told me like, look, this is in your head, like
• 42:34
  you're not really injured. We've, we've done some, they did
• 42:38
  like an ultrasound on the ankle and they're just like, you just
• 42:43
  got to get mentally tougher. Like you're not this, this is in
• 42:46
  your head. So I get to the Canadian
• 42:49
  championships the following year, still training on it for a
• 42:53
  year. Don't make the team up.
• 42:55
  Or at least like I, I have the time, but I'm like I'm 7th or
• 42:58
  8th or whatever in the race and I'm not selected.
• 43:01
  I get an MRI after the race and I have a stress fracture, A torn
• 43:07
  tendon that they find right away in my ankle.
• 43:10
  And yeah, so I I tell Alberto I'm like, OK, this is what's
• 43:17
  like, obviously there is something going on all this
• 43:19
  whole this whole time and he's like, I don't believe you.
• 43:25
  Go get us scanned again. Like we need a bone scan to make
• 43:30
  sure. Like there could be like false
• 43:33
  positives on Mris basically like you're like showing stuff that's
• 43:37
  not there. And so then I go get a bone
• 43:39
  scan. We find another stress factor.
• 43:42
  So I actually have two in there instead of just the first one.
• 43:45
  And so we're like, OK, well, you need surgery.
• 43:49
  And so then I'm just like, like the bone.
• 43:52
  So it's my navicular and my tailor and sorry, or my talus.
• 43:56
  And I go down to get surgery because they're worried the
• 44:01
  bones going to die because not much blood flow there.
• 44:05
  And the surgeons like, oh, yeah, we're not like, really sure what
• 44:09
  sort of damage is up with, like, the tendon may not actually be
• 44:12
  damaged because sometimes this just doesn't.
• 44:15
  Sometimes this shows up on an MRI and it's not really real.
• 44:18
  So like, he's still kind of unsure about it too.
• 44:20
  And so he and I, you know, wake up after the fact, of course,
• 44:25
  because I'm out for it. And he's like, he's like, yeah,
• 44:28
  it was really, really bad. And he's like, it was ripped up.
• 44:31
  You have like both the fractures there.
• 44:33
  He's like, so you have a screw in your navicular.
• 44:36
  We put a pin over in the talus as well.
• 44:40
  It's like, and then you had a bunch of bone chips.
• 44:42
  So I removed those. Let's see, what was it?
• 44:49
  I can't. What am I not thinking of the
• 44:53
  stuff that creates like the fluid within the joint anyway,
• 44:56
  that was like ripped apart as well.
• 44:58
  So I had to help clean that stuff out and then bone chips as
• 45:03
  well. I had to get rid of those too.
• 45:06
  So it was like 4 or five things. And at the time you're like,
• 45:12
  yeah, we don't know. Like if you're going to be able
• 45:14
  to run professionally on this thing again like this, this just
• 45:16
  might be the end. Well, I should say at that time,
• 45:19
  luckily the surgeon never said that to me and went on with
• 45:24
  recovery and rehab many months later, but actually ran into the
• 45:28
  surgeon and some other colleagues visiting Nike campus
• 45:32
  later that that year. And like, as he told them my
• 45:35
  story, they're just like shocked that I was running at all.
• 45:40
  And I was like, that's not a great sign.
• 45:42
  He's like, that's not what I like to hear right now. 5
• 45:46
  minutes running and he's like, wow, I can't believe you could
• 45:49
  run at all. And I'm like, Oh my God.
• 45:52
  Oh, took quite a lot of time in rehab and rebuilding back up.
• 45:59
  You know, this is ultimately a kind of what led to me leaving
• 46:03
  the organ project. You know, I talked with our
• 46:06
  sports psychologist again and sort of mentioned I'm like the.
• 46:10
  Sports Psychology. Yes, I know, I know.
• 46:12
  So I don't know why I'm calling him that.
• 46:16
  Have a conversation with him I think a couple months after this
• 46:20
  and I just like just hadn't heard from coaching staff or
• 46:24
  anything over these couple months really at all.
• 46:26
  Like I had well, Pete Julian was calling me every couple weeks
• 46:30
  number. So just sort of seeing how I was
• 46:34
  doing at best I was like, look, I'm not feeling like I'm much of
• 46:37
  this program right now and he's like, well, you know, if we're
• 46:40
  having these notes at all, like it's time to leave sickly.
• 46:44
  So I was just started fast tracking me out of the program
• 46:47
  and I'm like, well, I like I guess I get it, but you guys
• 46:50
  kind of helped get me into the situation I'm currently in now.
• 46:53
  You're like, all right, bye. Crazy.
• 46:57
  Yeah, but I mean, that's the Oregon project was like really
• 47:01
  about, you know, it's, it's harsh to say this, but it was
• 47:04
  like a lot really about the success of Galen.
• 47:07
  You know, I'm like everybody like if you find success doing
• 47:12
  what's working for him, like that's great, that's what they
• 47:15
  want. But like, the program is based
• 47:16
  around him doing well and like the program that's working well
• 47:20
  for him, you guys also follow and like it should work for you
• 47:25
  because it's working for him. OK, I get that.
• 47:28
  I totally get that. But like it then ultimately
• 47:33
  leads to missing stuff for other athletes because you're just not
• 47:36
  as interested in their success, right?
• 47:38
  Like whether I failed or succeeded didn't really mean
• 47:41
  anything to the program. Yeah, I see it like in a
• 47:45
  corporate setting, like you can have high performance culture
• 47:49
  and it can sort of be at the detriment of other people.
• 47:52
  If sort of you, you just you're just on this chase for sort of,
• 47:55
  you know, either making the biggest money you can in a short
• 47:58
  period of time. And you sort of you can do that
• 48:00
  as a coaching philosophy as well, right.
• 48:02
  You're trying to basically just put all your but it's not
• 48:05
  diversified. You sort of as, as you learn,
• 48:07
  you sort of you you're creating so much risk in your program,
• 48:10
  stacking all your hopes and dreams on one athlete.
• 48:13
  Like if they fall apart, then your programme falls apart.
• 48:15
  Whereas it seems like more successful programmes are much
• 48:19
  more, you know, they created a culture of success and they
• 48:23
  create a programme that sort of stacks up for multiple athletes
• 48:26
  and then you sort of have a wave of really good athletes.
• 48:28
  And yeah, I didn't realise at all that that was the sort of
• 48:32
  that you sort of had this, this, this culture that wasn't
• 48:35
  associated with sort of sustainable high performance.
• 48:38
  Yeah, and I mean, the they had lots of success.
• 48:41
  Obviously there's still guys that, I mean, they had Mo Farah
• 48:44
  and Galen Rupp and Matt Sintrawitz guys running really,
• 48:47
  really well. You know, it's when.
• 48:51
  Yeah. Well, we'll just like, when
• 48:52
  things aren't working for another athlete, it's kind of
• 48:54
  just like, well, like, that's not what this program's about.
• 48:57
  It's about, like, doing something that works for these
• 49:01
  guys. And if it doesn't work for you,
• 49:03
  like, too bad, too bad. Yeah.
• 49:06
  Or in my case also like, hey, I'm feeling hurt, like
• 49:10
  something's going on, something's not right, you know,
• 49:13
  like, well, it's in your head. That's.
• 49:16
  Crazy. But yeah, it is, it is really
• 49:18
  crazy in hindsight. It's like, you know, if you if
• 49:21
  you notice an athlete that far off or you know, like, surely I
• 49:28
  must have been limping or something.
• 49:31
  I mean, with that much going on with with that foot, surely it's
• 49:34
  something you can see. But like, yeah, just not enough
• 49:38
  paying attention to other athletes, I guess.
• 49:40
  I don't know. But yeah, I mean, this is nearly
• 49:43
  10 years ago now. Sorry.
• 49:45
  I'm still a little bit. I mean, like, you move past it.
• 49:48
  But he's thinking about it again.
• 49:49
  Like it still makes you a little frustrated with with what
• 49:52
  happened. You know, like, it's one of
• 49:54
  those things that I went like, you know, despite what happened,
• 49:58
  I don't want that to be the end of my career.
• 50:01
  I still want to find success and I still want to have like, I
• 50:05
  love this sport. I love running.
• 50:06
  Like, yeah, I want to be able to go out on my, I mean, at that
• 50:10
  time I was like, I want to be able to go out my own terms.
• 50:12
  Like I want to still be able to run something and say like, you
• 50:16
  know, that wasn't the end for me.
• 50:17
  Like this. Like I, I decide when I'm
• 50:21
  finished kind of thing. Because like also this led to
• 50:24
  the end of my contract with a company.
• 50:28
  I mean, for, for a year. Oh yeah.
• 50:29
  With Nike specifically then to spend a year unsponsored as well
• 50:34
  before being picked up by Hoka as well.
• 50:36
  But it's just like, you know, very difficult time.
• 50:39
  It's like, well, now I'm no longer sponsored.
• 50:41
  I'm, you know, like trying to find a way back from injury now
• 50:45
  as well, too pretty in the major surgery.
• 50:48
  And so it's just like, yeah, very difficult place.
• 50:51
  Yes, it those comments from is it Jenny, a sort of, you know,
• 50:54
  ringing, ringing fairly true in terms of yeah, just, you know.
• 50:58
  That things are only going to go well in the future when you've
• 51:01
  only sort of been really, I've only had success at that point
• 51:05
  in my my career. I hadn't faced that sort of
• 51:08
  adversity before. Not like I had difficult races
• 51:12
  and still difficult times, but not like something that you know
• 51:17
  changes your career potentially. And so then you decided to go
• 51:22
  back to your your college coach, is that right?
• 51:25
  Yeah, yeah. I went back to my college coach.
• 51:27
  Ultimately there's some weird stuff with like I was sort of
• 51:33
  briefly back with the Oregon Project again.
• 51:36
  Like I officially end up leaving the the group mid 2017 because
• 51:45
  Alberto didn't want things left in a bad place.
• 51:47
  Basically. He's like he kind of did, except
• 51:51
  like, yeah, we sort of got you to this this place.
• 51:55
  So it's like, let me help you kind of get back from this.
• 51:59
  But like so I which I did, I do appreciate, you know, like that.
• 52:03
  That was that was nice. So for about 1/2 a year from end
• 52:10
  of 2017, sorry, end of 2016 to mid 2017, he sort of worked with
• 52:16
  me and helped me sort of come back a little bit.
• 52:23
  But then yeah, ultimately went back with my coach as well or
• 52:27
  with my college coach. Yeah, I coached full.
• 52:30
  That was who coached me to my marathon debut the following
• 52:34
  year. And yeah, I was with Coach Rule
• 52:39
  through 2019. So with that marathon debut, you
• 52:45
  so first time running a marathon training must have been training
• 52:49
  really must have started to to turn around given what you what
• 52:53
  you ran did you, were you back to triple, triple run days back
• 52:58
  to sort of similar to what you you were doing towards the end
• 53:01
  of your college time in terms of was it 160 to 170 miles a week?
• 53:05
  Is that sort of what what training looked like in the lead
• 53:08
  up to the Canadian Marathon? Yeah, yeah.
• 53:12
  We eventually got up to that mileage again.
• 53:15
  It was funny, the first like workout that I did with coach
• 53:22
  full post surgery. This was like real humbling.
• 53:27
  He was like, all right, we're just going try and run 2 miles
• 53:30
  around 5 minute pace. I think it was maybe like a
• 53:34
  little bit over 5 minute pace and I was like, I'm like yeah,
• 53:38
  easy, no problem. And like within.
• 53:41
  So I like went out half pace and I want to say 600 meters in, I
• 53:46
  was already like slowed down towards like 6 minute pace and
• 53:49
  just like couldn't even finish. I'm like, Oh my gosh, yeah.
• 53:52
  That was like I was like hole and falling so, so far.
• 53:56
  But that mean that was that was very early on.
• 53:59
  But yeah, ultimately got up to that sort of mileage again.
• 54:01
  Yeah. I mean, like, honestly, the
• 54:02
  first marathon build, it was kind of like easy in that like
• 54:07
  I, I've been doing a lot of track work and I like sort of it
• 54:11
  into a lot longer running, longer workouts, lots of just
• 54:14
  long runs in general with sort of like faster finishes.
• 54:18
  And yeah, I mean, I had a very successful first marathon with
• 54:25
  yeah, with a new Canadian record and it gave me the illusion of
• 54:31
  the marathon to be pretty easy because I felt pretty good this
• 54:35
  first time, but I definitely had some difficult ones after that
• 54:39
  as well. But like finishing that marathon
• 54:42
  and having success after, you know, like thinking my career
• 54:45
  might be over, it was like a really, really emotional finish
• 54:49
  to this thing. And it's kind of it's like,
• 54:52
  yeah, it was a moment of being like, you know, my, my college
• 54:55
  coach came through for me so big time too, alongside like just,
• 54:59
  you know, family and everyone just like, you know, keep, keep
• 55:04
  trying at this no matter how tough things are right now.
• 55:09
  But like, yeah, I just have so much gratitude for my college
• 55:13
  coach for picking me up from just, like, the lowest point
• 55:15
  possible and getting me there. I mean, like, ultimately we
• 55:18
  really only split again, just because, like, he's a college
• 55:22
  coach and there's just a lot of time need to go into that
• 55:24
  program. Not for any other reason.
• 55:28
  We're still very close. That's awesome.
• 55:31
  And so you was it a 4040 odd 43 maybe year Canadian record you
• 55:37
  you broke for the for the marathon.
• 55:39
  Was it two O 925? Yeah, it was a 43 year old
• 55:43
  record this previously two O 10, sorry, O 8 maybe, but yeah, I, I
• 55:51
  ran two O 925, but yeah. And that was from Jerome
• 55:54
  Graydon, who was just like our great, great Canadian
• 55:58
  marathoner. And I, Dan, I Dan, like,
• 56:01
  appreciate what he did until after the fact.
• 56:06
  But like, yeah, looking back, because actually he just passed
• 56:09
  away at this last year himself too, finally.
• 56:12
  But yeah, so I, I read some more stuff about him and his life and
• 56:16
  like, he this is just like insane from the beginning of his
• 56:21
  career. Let's see, he went 218 I think
• 56:25
  initially and like set the Canadian record at that time.
• 56:27
  And like over the course of his career at this like end of the
• 56:31
  60s and into mid 70s, like got it down to 210.
• 56:35
  So he like brought it down 8 minutes over the course of his
• 56:38
  career and then last 40 years, yeah, it's just crazy, crazy
• 56:42
  stuff. So cool.
• 56:43
  And do you know what his sort of what training look like?
• 56:46
  Like we see a high mileage guy as well.
• 56:49
  Or do you know, what did you take any inspiration from, sort
• 56:51
  of when you were reading and learning about him?
• 56:54
  So I talked to him for the first time after I broke his record.
• 56:57
  He called, he called me up and we we chatted on the phone and
• 57:00
  it was so funny that like the first things he had to say is
• 57:04
  like, he's like, yeah, that's great that you did this.
• 57:07
  He's like, let's talk about what you need to do to be better.
• 57:10
  Basically. He's like, here's some holes in
• 57:12
  your training, which is just like, awesome, you know.
• 57:16
  But yeah, it sounds like he did some like really, really like
• 57:20
  long single runs, like, you know, few hours or more at a
• 57:24
  time kind of thing. Interesting because that was
• 57:25
  what his suggestion was to me. And I'm like, oh, yeah.
• 57:27
  Like I haven't really been doing that.
• 57:29
  I like haven't been going post like or beyond this kind of
• 57:33
  thing in training in single Princess.
• 57:36
  It's there. Obviously I was running a lot of
• 57:37
  miles, but yeah, it's really, really great, great memory and
• 57:41
  moment for me that he's like, yeah, that's good, that's great.
• 57:44
  So let's talk about. That's that's sort of cool,
• 57:48
  yeah. And then so then sort of the
• 57:51
  rebirth, like found found a love for the marathon.
• 57:55
  But then the next couple of years are a bit leaner, at least
• 57:58
  as far as what I can see in terms of PBS.
• 58:00
  And we've had COVID during that time.
• 58:02
  Like it might have been a bit of a yeah, what was it?
• 58:04
  How would how would the next few, few years?
• 58:06
  Sort of. So I I had just major
• 58:09
  difficulties trying to run that well again, trying to make the
• 58:12
  Olympics. Just like I said, I thought it
• 58:15
  would be easier maybe after having success in the first
• 58:18
  marathon. But yeah, I just had
• 58:20
  difficulties with fueling. I was like trying out Martin and
• 58:25
  just wasn't really working for me either.
• 58:27
  And I had at this time, I was kind of moving away from wasn't
• 58:31
  doing as much weight training either.
• 58:34
  And I was just like really, really struggling over the last
• 58:41
  10K of my race. And I mean, another thing as
• 58:43
  well as it kept getting this this like side stitch of
• 58:47
  nowhere. I know something that like
• 58:48
  wasn't getting recreated in workouts that goes just
• 58:52
  happening brutally in races during like just getting to that
• 58:56
  level of exhaustion, I guess. So it's just a number of things
• 58:59
  I was just kind of struggling with and not figuring out until
• 59:03
  like last minutes, like within the last few days of qualifying
• 59:10
  for the Olympics. I was able to go to this race in
• 59:13
  Austria. And this is the only marathon
• 59:15
  that I've won in my career and just have like, just an amazing
• 59:18
  day like this. And it's like crazy because it
• 59:23
  just became this solo run and it starts just like pissing down
• 59:27
  rain as well. Just like conditions start
• 59:29
  getting so crappy. But it's just I was having one
• 59:31
  of those days and I'm like, like I'm feeling amazing and just
• 59:36
  like kept pushing, pushing along and got standard and in a
• 59:39
  position to be selected on the team.
• 59:42
  But it was just like, yeah, the most last last minute random
• 59:46
  race. And like, you know, the races
• 59:48
  are all weird with COVID at this point too, because like, yeah,
• 59:52
  this this one in Austria, I mean, it was set up for athletes
• 59:56
  to try and make the Olympics, like with there not being as
• 1:00:00
  many marathons available or at least not in person ones for
• 1:00:04
  slots of these virtual ones kind of things being introduced.
• 1:00:07
  And it was on just this piece of like highway they're developing
• 1:00:11
  in Austria. So I don't think it's like they
• 1:00:12
  can even go back to it ever again.
• 1:00:14
  It was just like, yeah, flea partially opened, not really
• 1:00:21
  finished. Area of road and we just circled
• 1:00:23
  around it. So, and was that was the
• 1:00:25
  qualifying stand? Was that to 11:30 back in back
• 1:00:29
  then I think and yeah. And was this twenty?
• 1:00:34
  Sorry, I was. Just going to say I just ran low
• 1:00:37
  2 Dems. Yes, yeah.
• 1:00:39
  So yeah, you you're comfortably under, weren't you in the end
• 1:00:42
  like a bit over a minute. But was that because there was a
• 1:00:46
  couple of, so was that in the 2020 time frame sort of before
• 1:00:51
  the Olympics got postponed that you ran the ran the standard?
• 1:00:54
  Was that the first time we were sort of the qualifying window
• 1:00:56
  was shutting? No, it was in the end of 2021
• 1:01:00
  even. So like in that regards.
• 1:01:02
  Wow. Benefited from that like yeah,
• 1:01:05
  it's just like it wasn't happening in the 2020 time frame
• 1:01:11
  or actually this is this runs to you another thing.
• 1:01:15
  So at the beginning of 2020 I was getting ready for the
• 1:01:19
  Rotterdam marathon and that's in I guess beginning, beginning or
• 1:01:22
  mid-april normally and I have gone over to Kenya in order to
• 1:01:27
  get ready for this. I'm just like getting into the
• 1:01:29
  similar time zone getting in some altitude training and like
• 1:01:32
  I am really ripping over there actually I'm having like
• 1:01:35
  training is going super super awesome and then see beginning
• 1:01:39
  middle of March wherever the world starts just shutting down
• 1:01:44
  everything starts yeah. Canceling.
• 1:01:45
  And like just barely, barely got out of Kenya like with
• 1:01:51
  everything closing down trying to think did they yeah like
• 1:01:56
  they're holding our flight still like just not even sure if
• 1:01:59
  they're going to let us go even. Yeah, it's super super crazy and
• 1:02:05
  I when I get into Amsterdam, yeah.
• 1:02:08
  Because I went from, let's see, I think Nairobi to Istanbul and
• 1:02:14
  then Istanbul back to the States and ultimately back to Portland.
• 1:02:19
  I land in Amsterdam and it's just like a complete ghost town.
• 1:02:23
  I guess. It's just like nobody there as
• 1:02:26
  you can imagine, which is just like already just like, Oh my
• 1:02:30
  gosh, what what is happening? And then I get to the States and
• 1:02:35
  like I'm masked up and like got eyewear on and stuff as well.
• 1:02:40
  And coming to this, it's and it's like nothing's changed.
• 1:02:44
  It's like as if nothing's happening at all.
• 1:02:47
  People are like looking at me like, what's what is this guy
• 1:02:49
  doing? And I'm like, we're, we're so
• 1:02:52
  screwed. We're in big trouble here.
• 1:02:57
  Yeah, that was like. Man, it's just like the foot,
• 1:03:00
  it's just in your head. Don't worry about it.
• 1:03:03
  Exactly. Yeah, not.
• 1:03:04
  Real. Not real.
• 1:03:06
  No, not going to get you. So, but yeah, that was, I was
• 1:03:10
  getting ready for a marathon and ultimately not able to do that
• 1:03:13
  one. But then I did do the London
• 1:03:15
  Marathon later that year, which was like when it was just like
• 1:03:18
  whatever the 2K loops or yeah, whatever it was in front of
• 1:03:23
  Buckingham Palace. That was a super interesting
• 1:03:27
  experience. So it's like when I think of
• 1:03:29
  also major marathons that I ran, I'm like, well, I technically
• 1:03:32
  have ran in London, but I didn't really do London at all.
• 1:03:37
  But yeah, that's like it's own very unique, unique experience,
• 1:03:41
  I guess. But yeah, that's like what so
• 1:03:42
  many of the races were like at that point.
• 1:03:44
  It was just trying to find anything.
• 1:03:46
  It's an opportunity to still try and qualify because I was not
• 1:03:50
  qualified, did that, did the marathon project in Arizona and
• 1:03:54
  still was struggling. Yeah, I was just not, not
• 1:03:57
  putting it together for these marathons.
• 1:03:59
  And and Tokyo even like that was that was strange, right in and
• 1:04:03
  of itself a sort of it was not in the IT wasn't even it was it
• 1:04:08
  Sapporo, It was sort of its own separate.
• 1:04:10
  Yeah. So I was one of the one of the
• 1:04:13
  last finishers and Sapporo as well.
• 1:04:17
  And that was like really what, what kind of, you know,
• 1:04:23
  struggling that much like going out with the lead and not
• 1:04:27
  feeling like we went on even like that hard and just
• 1:04:30
  completely imploding over the second-half of the race.
• 1:04:34
  And I was just like, showed me I'm like, wow, I'm still so far
• 1:04:38
  off of where I thought I was. Like, even though I felt like
• 1:04:41
  training was going well, I'm just like, not even near the
• 1:04:45
  level of athlete that I like I thought I should be or thought
• 1:04:48
  that I was. And so it's like that really
• 1:04:50
  became my like, led to a lot of reflection on what I was doing
• 1:04:54
  in training and like led to this big revamp and just trying to
• 1:04:58
  improve every aspect of training.
• 1:05:00
  I was, I just really felt like I'm like, you know, I'm at a
• 1:05:03
  point in my career, like I might as well just throw everything I
• 1:05:06
  possibly can into this. And it's like, if, if I break, I
• 1:05:11
  break. And if, like, I survive, let's
• 1:05:14
  see if, like, at least say I gave everything.
• 1:05:17
  I got LED into this, you know, like, there'd be no regrets from
• 1:05:21
  that standpoint. Yeah.
• 1:05:23
  So like, we just came to the end of that year, end of 2021, Like,
• 1:05:32
  had this come to Jesus basically moment of training.
• 1:05:37
  We're just like, yeah. It was like, you got to take
• 1:05:39
  this as like, you know, every little aspect that matters, like
• 1:05:46
  completely. So yeah, we went through every
• 1:05:48
  little every piece and went like, OK, how can I do this
• 1:05:50
  better? And so, yeah, I started running
• 1:05:53
  even more again. I was like, yeah, going up for
• 1:05:57
  like, yeah, I mean, even for one 7180 miles kind of thing.
• 1:06:01
  It's like then we're introducing double workouts and we're like
• 1:06:05
  going super, super hard into weightlifting again.
• 1:06:08
  Like, got back in contact with Dave McHenry because he's still
• 1:06:11
  in Portland working with Union Athletics at that time.
• 1:06:15
  And yeah, it's just like every possible thing that I could
• 1:06:18
  think of. We were like, Oh yeah.
• 1:06:20
  And I started introducing altitude running as well in
• 1:06:23
  Portland by like, putting an altitude tent around my
• 1:06:26
  treadmill. So, yeah, just felt like every
• 1:06:28
  single thing I could possibly do, it's like, I'm giving all I
• 1:06:32
  can into this. Yeah.
• 1:06:33
  I mean, did some track racing and it was going OK, but then
• 1:06:38
  was selected for the World Championships in the marathon in
• 1:06:42
  Eugene and yeah, just during this build up to Eugene, it was
• 1:06:45
  like wow, I'm really, really flying like I'm starting to do
• 1:06:49
  these workouts and I'm like wow, I can't even believe I'm doing
• 1:06:52
  some of this stuff. That's cool.
• 1:06:54
  Yeah, it was super, super cool. Like doing, you know, repeat 5
• 1:06:58
  caves and like going sub 14 for all of them with just like a few
• 1:07:03
  minutes rest. Yeah, and it's just like, wow, I
• 1:07:07
  can like I just have to completely like suspend what I
• 1:07:11
  thought was possible for myself at this point is, is like my I'm
• 1:07:15
  just going to do what I feel like I can do and whatever sort
• 1:07:19
  of times and stuff I run on these workouts.
• 1:07:21
  Like I guess that like just believe that that means like how
• 1:07:25
  I'll be good or how good I'll be when I go and race kind of
• 1:07:28
  thing. Like just trying to get rid of
• 1:07:30
  any sort of expectations or limits or whatever.
• 1:07:35
  And then, yeah, going to the World Championships and going
• 1:07:38
  from probably 4th to last or whatever at Sapporo and being
• 1:07:43
  pretty much the exact opposite of the World Championships the
• 1:07:46
  following year was just like unbelievable.
• 1:07:49
  And after that race, I was like, you know, no matter what happens
• 1:07:53
  now with the rest of my career here, I've done, I've done what
• 1:07:56
  I can, like given everything I can into this, into the sport.
• 1:08:00
  And like that, at least it's put me at a point now where I'm
• 1:08:03
  like, I'm without regrets. Like I, I want to continue to do
• 1:08:06
  more and I'm like, I think I still can continue to run even
• 1:08:10
  faster. I want to believe that.
• 1:08:12
  And that's why I'm still in the sport.
• 1:08:14
  Of course, want to do even better than four.
• 1:08:16
  So I want to come away with international medal.
• 1:08:19
  But from the level of effort I've put into this, like I have
• 1:08:22
  no, no regrets in that standpoint.
• 1:08:25
  I don't feel like there's anything else I can be doing but
• 1:08:28
  I'm not already doing. And 2:07 in a championship race,
• 1:08:32
  like I still remember, I remember watching the stream and
• 1:08:35
  being like, damn, that's that's Cam Levens.
• 1:08:39
  Like I remember from driven. I remember like, and he's back,
• 1:08:42
  you know, because it was sort of like you, you're a bit off pace
• 1:08:44
  for for a period of time and then to see like in the front
• 1:08:48
  pack, like mixing it with the leaders before they sort of
• 1:08:51
  start throwing it, like everyone started to throwing it down, but
• 1:08:54
  you're sort of hot hanging pretty tough towards the end of
• 1:08:57
  that race. It got strung out.
• 1:08:59
  So it was like wasn't like you didn't not utilize the kick to,
• 1:09:03
  you know, at the end or anything like that.
• 1:09:05
  It was forth was was sort of the optimal finish, wasn't it, based
• 1:09:10
  on fitness, but you just had this fitness level that you'd
• 1:09:15
  never had before. Right.
• 1:09:17
  Yeah, I was, yeah. This is the beginning of
• 1:09:22
  marathons for me where it's like this, and I mean this and the
• 1:09:28
  Tokyo Marathon layer. Basically it's felt like 30 K of
• 1:09:32
  jogging and then it's like time to start racing, which is like
• 1:09:36
  super cool. That's how I want these.
• 1:09:38
  Like this is what you want races to be like is been like, OK, I'm
• 1:09:42
  hanging out and now it's like time to race these guys coming
• 1:09:44
  into the end of this marathon where I was up to this point
• 1:09:48
  getting up to the 10 game being or like 10 game left in the race
• 1:09:51
  to be like, well, am I going to survive today or am I not going
• 1:09:56
  to survive today? You know, it felt like kind of a
• 1:09:58
  crapshoot, but I felt just so much better prepared.
• 1:10:04
  Like just I think if nothing else, just from the weight
• 1:10:09
  training, I would say my body just felt like way less beat up.
• 1:10:12
  Like despite mean I made changes across the board, but that was
• 1:10:16
  just such a huge component to feeling better.
• 1:10:18
  And like what I always try and talk about at this point is just
• 1:10:22
  like how important it is for a marathon or still like it's so
• 1:10:25
  easy to think that like it's all about the running.
• 1:10:30
  But yeah, my got to got to get in the gym.
• 1:10:35
  And is it, do do you think it's an economy like that stiffness
• 1:10:39
  like that springy stiffness that that is what's helping you?
• 1:10:43
  Yeah, so there's definitely the the the stiffness standpoint for
• 1:10:46
  sure for economy and I think just less muscle damage getting
• 1:10:52
  later into the race. Like you just utilize them
• 1:10:55
  better. Like, you know, it's because, I
• 1:10:58
  mean, that's, it's from my experience, I don't feel like
• 1:11:02
  you're super, super out of breath.
• 1:11:05
  I don't know how else to say it. When you get towards like that
• 1:11:07
  stage in marathon, just kind of feels like your body's just
• 1:11:09
  wrecked and it's like it just can't move as well as it could
• 1:11:14
  earlier in the race. So I think that's the big sort
• 1:11:19
  of side of that, yeah. And do you think in terms of
• 1:11:24
  distribution of effort in a marathon that sort of running at
• 1:11:28
  a sort of percentage of threshold up until 4:30 to 40
• 1:11:34
  minutes left and then basically just like the ability to then
• 1:11:37
  sort of send from there? Do you think that's almost like
• 1:11:40
  a just a distributing effort and fueling and all those sorts of
• 1:11:44
  things all almost like a way that you can optimize sort of
• 1:11:48
  the the race performance for a marathon?
• 1:11:50
  So sorry, are you asking from like a strategy standpoint of
• 1:11:54
  like pacing or from like preparation?
• 1:11:59
  I suppose I find a little bit that like you, I don't know if
• 1:12:04
  it's just a psychological thing where you've got sort of 10 to
• 1:12:07
  12 kilometres to go and you start to let yourself loose at
• 1:12:10
  that point in time. Because you can start to feel
• 1:12:12
  it. And it's almost like you can
• 1:12:13
  start to let your heart like your, your percentage of effort.
• 1:12:16
  You can sort of let go of it because you've sort of got a
• 1:12:19
  period of a a period of minutes where if you ran to that level
• 1:12:22
  of effort earlier, you would just not be able to, to do it.
• 1:12:26
  So I was wondering, I'd like, I've thought about it in my
• 1:12:29
  races that have my marathons that I've had a fun experience,
• 1:12:32
  have sort of played out similarly.
• 1:12:34
  And I was wondering if it's just if there was any sort of linkage
• 1:12:37
  to just how, yeah, if you, if you had any insight as to why
• 1:12:40
  that that feels like the right way to go, or maybe that's just
• 1:12:44
  just the natural course of the marathon.
• 1:12:48
  Yeah, from my standpoint, yeah, I would say like running a
• 1:12:55
  marathon properly, I feel like is making sure you're kind of
• 1:13:00
  held back till like they mean like what they talk about 30 K
• 1:13:04
  being kind of the halfway point of the marathon in reality.
• 1:13:07
  And yeah, my good ones have been certainly that way where it's
• 1:13:10
  like you get to 12 K laugh and it's like, OK, now I can let
• 1:13:15
  loose, Now I can like, I know I can make it the last 12 K kind
• 1:13:19
  of thing since I've been like, you know, sort of staying within
• 1:13:27
  my like running economy. But I mean, I think part of that
• 1:13:30
  is just like what you've done in your training all the way up to
• 1:13:34
  that point, right? I mean, like, because that pace
• 1:13:38
  can be almost anything for anybody.
• 1:13:39
  I mean, there's people that still run faster than me for
• 1:13:43
  those those first 30K and it's like they're still feeling that
• 1:13:47
  same way too. So I think that's just kind of,
• 1:13:50
  yeah, whatever is optimal for the person.
• 1:13:54
  But yeah, I think you need to, or at least in my experience,
• 1:13:58
  you need to be feeling like that.
• 1:13:59
  You need to feel like, OK, I'm getting to 10K12K left in this
• 1:14:03
  race and now I'm going to start hammering and like, I feel like
• 1:14:07
  I can. You don't, you don't want to get
• 1:14:09
  the 30K and be like, which was happening to me in 30 K and be
• 1:14:13
  like, I don't know what's going to happen.
• 1:14:15
  Am I going to survive this or I'm not going to survive this?
• 1:14:17
  It's one of the worst experiences of my life, getting
• 1:14:20
  there and feeling bad. It's like the longest, well, at
• 1:14:25
  best, if you're lucky, 40 minutes, 50 minutes of your
• 1:14:29
  life. And then?
• 1:14:30
  Sorry, I was just going to say one of the first times that like
• 1:14:36
  I really appreciated that was I watched Sam Twanga one year do
• 1:14:41
  the London Marathon and like he got through half and like, I
• 1:14:44
  want to save 61 minutes or something and ran like 228.
• 1:14:48
  I'm just like, that has to be just like the worst feeling
• 1:14:51
  second-half of this thing. I've I can't even imagine.
• 1:14:55
  And then I did something similar, the Olympics myself.
• 1:14:59
  I went through it 65 and around 2:28 or whatever myself too.
• 1:15:03
  So I'm like, yeah, I get it. And yeah, it's horrible, man.
• 1:15:06
  Like people talking about like, I see some discussion of like
• 1:15:10
  the 800 meters versus the marathon, just in terms of like
• 1:15:15
  what? How hard it is?
• 1:15:17
  Yeah, well, and then like, I, I appreciate and understand how
• 1:15:20
  hard the 800 is. I've ran it lots myself and
• 1:15:24
  like, I do get it. But like there man, there is a
• 1:15:27
  difference between having a bad 800 and having a bad marathon.
• 1:15:33
  At at worst, let's just say at absolute worst, you're having
• 1:15:38
  half the race for this 800 field is terrible, right?
• 1:15:42
  Let's say, I mean, it's more than likely it's going to be 200
• 1:15:45
  to 300 meters left. And so like that's, if you're
• 1:15:50
  going real, real slow for these like really good guys, let's say
• 1:15:54
  4045 seconds, right? And you just like try and
• 1:16:00
  compare that to 50 minutes of suffering, man.
• 1:16:04
  It's terrible, man. I've I've experienced both and I
• 1:16:09
  I would take that 800 every time, every single time, every
• 1:16:14
  day. Do you think you native had a
• 1:16:16
  bad experience to help sort of galvanized you or make you sort
• 1:16:20
  of does it help you when it comes to have when you're on a
• 1:16:22
  good one? I, yeah, I mean I, I, I think
• 1:16:28
  from the marathon, if you can have a good successful first
• 1:16:33
  marathon that you're able to like really like have that
• 1:16:37
  positivity and understand like, oh, this is what it can feel
• 1:16:40
  like. I think that is important to be
• 1:16:42
  able to draw from. But then yes, like failure is,
• 1:16:47
  can still lead to a lot of success in the future.
• 1:16:49
  And understanding what the other side of it can feel like is very
• 1:16:53
  important. And I, I'm someone who's very
• 1:16:55
  reflective when things go bad, like I like to go through and be
• 1:16:58
  like, OK, how do I make this not happen again?
• 1:17:01
  And what do, what do I need to just like what led to this
• 1:17:03
  happening? And so, yeah, there's, there's
• 1:17:04
  certainly importance to that and importance to understanding like
• 1:17:07
  this is what it feels like when things go well.
• 1:17:10
  And this is what it feels like when things don't go well.
• 1:17:14
  So yeah, I mean, failure is important.
• 1:17:18
  I, I, I think, mean, if not, then like, what is all this for?
• 1:17:24
  I don't know. Exactly.
• 1:17:26
  No, I agree. And then I suppose you ran 207,
• 1:17:31
  but in a championship race, it wouldn't be too optimistic to
• 1:17:34
  then think that maybe there's some some time there if put in
• 1:17:38
  the right setting. And is that what motivated you
• 1:17:40
  to then select Tokyo the following year?
• 1:17:44
  Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah.
• 1:17:47
  I was like, well, even with where I'm at right now, like
• 1:17:51
  just an even more evenly paced race, like surely I can go
• 1:17:54
  faster. And so yeah, that was that was
• 1:17:57
  the idea is like, OK, let's see what I can do.
• 1:18:00
  And I chose Tokyo because I felt that just like running
• 1:18:09
  conditions would be also more consistent that time of year.
• 1:18:13
  Like with in London can be fast, but you can kind of guess like
• 1:18:19
  can kind of be either too warm sometimes or just like it's been
• 1:18:24
  kind of a crapshoot of what the weather can be sometimes.
• 1:18:28
  At least I, I think so I'm like, from a contractual standpoint.
• 1:18:33
  Oh yeah, yeah, from contract standpoint, so I was with HOKA
• 1:18:39
  through the 2021 Olympics and they chose not to resign me
• 1:18:46
  after after that and then ultimately ended up with ASICS
• 1:18:51
  after the World Championships, you know, having that success.
• 1:18:54
  And well, that's, that's I guess how my contracts go so far as I,
• 1:18:57
  I got left out in the cold after after my contracts with them.
• 1:19:02
  So that's yeah, no, I, I've been been with ASICS since that World
• 1:19:09
  Championships, which has been great.
• 1:19:13
  So yeah, ASICS was also happy to have me go to Tokyo as well for
• 1:19:19
  the obvious. Did you sign a ASICS with ASICS
• 1:19:23
  though? Was it just just before?
• 1:19:25
  Was it just February in your racing in in March or so?
• 1:19:28
  Pretty. So I I signed with them like
• 1:19:34
  October of 2020. OK.
• 1:19:39
  Yeah, like so just yeah, a couple months after the World
• 1:19:42
  Championships, sorry, but I lost my train of thought.
• 1:19:45
  But my point being was my contract with really
• 1:19:49
  incentivizes doing well at majors or out World
• 1:19:52
  Championships. So it's like most of the
• 1:19:55
  marathons that I was choosing to select from were ideally major
• 1:20:00
  marathons. So I was like, oh, if I'm not
• 1:20:01
  looking to do. Tokyo then I'm more likely to
• 1:20:04
  looking to do Boston or London, which is why I was talking about
• 1:20:07
  them specifically. So like, yeah, from time of year
• 1:20:10
  standpoint, I'm like to try and go run fast.
• 1:20:12
  I'm like, I think Tokyo is my best choice between those
• 1:20:15
  options. And then I had this good half
• 1:20:19
  marathon leading up to it as well, which was, yeah, big
• 1:20:24
  confidence booster going and soloing nearly 60 minutes.
• 1:20:29
  It's like I was like, OK, I'm feeling good, I'm rolling good.
• 1:20:34
  And then yeah, Tokyo went super awesome.
• 1:20:38
  It was like my first sort of experience with running in that
• 1:20:41
  pace zone. And also kind of like there's
• 1:20:47
  this feeling of like, man, I'm going real fast, why can't I do
• 1:20:52
  this? And then remembering like, Oh
• 1:20:53
  yeah, I've done this a crap ton in training.
• 1:20:55
  I've done this over and over and over again.
• 1:20:57
  It's like relaxing and getting yourself back into it.
• 1:21:00
  I think that's such a big component of it as well, like
• 1:21:03
  having this sort of reservoir of confidence and, you know, like
• 1:21:10
  just memory from training to pull from to like goes mean yes,
• 1:21:15
  the marathon is also just this huge mental battle of course,
• 1:21:18
  too. And you just, you're not going
• 1:21:21
  to feel good through all of it. Like, you're going to make me
• 1:21:23
  feel like you have lots of energy still, but it's still
• 1:21:26
  hard, you know, it's hard in your body.
• 1:21:27
  And so, yeah, I definitely had stages through this where I was
• 1:21:31
  like, can I keep doing this? And then like, as I got closer
• 1:21:35
  to that 30K standpoint, I'm like, OK, I'm still good.
• 1:21:38
  And then get there, start trying to race.
• 1:21:41
  But like, yeah, I can be real scary through some of those
• 1:21:45
  earlier schools, especially after having failed some and
• 1:21:49
  knowing how it can go. And there's some like magical
• 1:21:53
  barriers in running. And I would assume that perhaps
• 1:21:56
  that the three minute under 3 minutes per kilometer for a
• 1:22:01
  marathon pace, was that playing on your mind at all?
• 1:22:04
  I don't know. Or it's just a halfway split.
• 1:22:07
  You're running. What did you clock through
• 1:22:09
  halfway? 62 minutes and you're like, wow,
• 1:22:11
  that's fast. Yeah, like we're 62 low.
• 1:22:16
  Yeah, it's now it's interesting you say that.
• 1:22:19
  I feel like within training I wasn't so worried about it so
• 1:22:25
  much. And it's just like kind of like
• 1:22:27
  a natural area where I like to hang out as far as trying to hit
• 1:22:30
  the faces go. And yeah, in racing it's like,
• 1:22:33
  yeah, you're, I think like if you're looking at your watch,
• 1:22:37
  it's sort of an easy number to be like, oh, am I over three?
• 1:22:40
  Am I under three kind of thing from that standpoint?
• 1:22:42
  Totally. But I don't know if it's
• 1:22:44
  necessarily been a mental barrier for me to be like, well,
• 1:22:48
  if I'm not under three, that means I'm in trouble kind of
• 1:22:51
  thing. I try not to let just, well, if
• 1:22:53
  you just try not to let panic and sue ever, that's just,
• 1:22:58
  that's just a bad, bad situation.
• 1:23:00
  But yeah, I I would say, I mean, I think my marathon pace
• 1:23:06
  probably is 259 or something per kilometer, which is funny you
• 1:23:10
  say that. I mean, so I guess there is that
• 1:23:12
  sort of barrier, but yeah, like just try not to worry about
• 1:23:16
  those things. Like they don't, you know, they
• 1:23:19
  don't, they're important, but they're not important to your
• 1:23:22
  success. Like they're just detrimental to
• 1:23:25
  your success. You start worrying about those
• 1:23:26
  barriers. And how much fun was the last
• 1:23:28
  part of that race? Like racing it, like world, like
• 1:23:31
  world major and yeah, yeah, you know, mixing it.
• 1:23:35
  Yeah, It was crazy to get into the lead and be like, all right,
• 1:23:38
  like I'm, I mean, when I get into situations like that, I
• 1:23:42
  mean, all that I tell myself over and over again is like,
• 1:23:45
  hey, you're winning this. Like you're winning this, you're
• 1:23:47
  winning this. Because like that's you got to
• 1:23:50
  be your own biggest cheerleader in these things.
• 1:23:53
  Like it's, that's the whole mental component of it as well.
• 1:23:56
  It's like positive mental talk is so, so huge.
• 1:24:01
  And so, yeah, I get into that situation.
• 1:24:03
  I'm like, all right, nobody's beating you.
• 1:24:04
  Like you got this. And I, I didn't obviously, but
• 1:24:09
  like, you know, that's, that's still helped me get to 4041 K
• 1:24:14
  and be in it and like still try and, you know, beat the guys
• 1:24:18
  around me as I'm sprinting in. And like, you know, I like to
• 1:24:25
  think if I'm in that situation again one day, like it might be
• 1:24:30
  my day, it might happen. You know, like I, I think that's
• 1:24:35
  a big piece of all this stuff too, is just like you keep
• 1:24:38
  trying to put yourself in that same situation over and over
• 1:24:40
  again and like, hopefully you'll have the day having the success
• 1:24:44
  that you want. And is that the way you just
• 1:24:47
  spoke about that? Is that, have you always had
• 1:24:50
  that or is that something you worked with, with a sports
• 1:24:53
  psychologist or? Yeah, I work regularly with the
• 1:24:56
  with a sports psychologist. Yeah.
• 1:24:57
  And I mean, there's certainly things that as an athlete you
• 1:25:04
  just sort of pick up on like what works well for you kind of
• 1:25:07
  thing. Like there's things that like as
• 1:25:11
  a collegiate, I picked up like, OK, I like to spend the first
• 1:25:15
  kilometer, 2 kilometers of races, like making sure I don't
• 1:25:18
  look at my watch or like focus on anything besides just getting
• 1:25:22
  my body into a real relaxed state.
• 1:25:25
  Because like I, I have a tendency if I start focusing
• 1:25:28
  other stuff, I can runway more tense than I think I am.
• 1:25:31
  And that's like, then you just can carry it into the rest of
• 1:25:34
  the race without really realizing that you're expending
• 1:25:37
  extra energy. So it's like I spend the
• 1:25:39
  beginning of races really just like, OK, take deep breaths,
• 1:25:43
  run, relax, get your shoulders to relax, like move easy.
• 1:25:48
  And then like, once you're settled, then you can start sort
• 1:25:51
  of worrying about those other things or like focusing on some
• 1:25:54
  of the stuff you want to like, feeling good and like extending
• 1:25:58
  as little energy as possible as kind of the keys to success,
• 1:26:01
  anchor keys to having good races.
• 1:26:03
  But yeah, like the, yeah, big thing with my sports
• 1:26:06
  psychologist has been positive mental talk because she's like
• 1:26:09
  with shorter races, you can really divide the races into
• 1:26:11
  stage as well. Like, I mean, especially stuff
• 1:26:13
  like sprints in particular, it's like you have exact things that
• 1:26:18
  you want to execute during the race, various stages and stuff.
• 1:26:22
  And to an extent with middle distance races and some of the
• 1:26:26
  track stuff, I think in general some more similar concept, like
• 1:26:29
  OK, you have early on, you have your Sprint you can focus on
• 1:26:35
  like it's just like, yeah, just a bit easier to divide in the
• 1:26:38
  stages. But over a couple hours, like,
• 1:26:41
  that's in some regards starts to go out the window a little bit.
• 1:26:44
  And it's like you just need to focus on staying positive and
• 1:26:48
  like, continuing to continuing to fight, like feelings of doubt
• 1:26:55
  and feelings of like, is this going well, how am I feeling?
• 1:27:00
  You know, like any sort of lapse in that regards causes you
• 1:27:06
  trouble. And I mean, you have some leeway
• 1:27:08
  in such a long race as well that like, yeah, just this constant
• 1:27:12
  mental battle. And you cross the finish line
• 1:27:16
  and I think were you quoted or could we hear on the camera
• 1:27:19
  saying pretty good? Yeah, yeah, I when when talked
• 1:27:25
  to my wife Rayaway afterwards, I was like, yeah, pretty good.
• 1:27:28
  That's just funny that I got caught.
• 1:27:30
  Yeah, I was just like, I'm an athlete, but I'm like always
• 1:27:34
  wanting more and more and like, you know, I, I'm happy with
• 1:27:38
  super good time and like still good placing, but it's like I
• 1:27:41
  was still pretty close to, you know, getting on the podium,
• 1:27:45
  getting into like getting the win.
• 1:27:48
  And that's like you always want more, right?
• 1:27:51
  You're like, that's just part of I think trying to be a good
• 1:27:55
  competitive athlete is wanting wanting more.
• 1:27:58
  But yeah, of course I was happy with it, you know?
• 1:28:03
  And that was a. Being satisfied and being happy,
• 1:28:05
  you know? Sure.
• 1:28:06
  Yeah, no fair. And you beat the North American
• 1:28:11
  record for the marathon by two seconds.
• 1:28:13
  Which is, which is pretty. Yeah, I I mean, I when I took
• 1:28:17
  the lead with the, you know, 10K12K whatever was left, you
• 1:28:22
  know, after 30 Ki mean I actually I can't even remember
• 1:28:25
  exactly when I did, but I felt like some point there.
• 1:28:28
  That was the thought of my mind. I'm like, oh, I can feel it's
• 1:28:30
  kind of slowing. I'm like, and like I can feel
• 1:28:34
  this. Maybe they would just turn into
• 1:28:35
  kind of a bit of a hang out and try and again.
• 1:28:39
  And I was like, like, yeah, I'm not necessarily, like I don't
• 1:28:42
  necessarily have any issues with that, but I'm like, I, I know
• 1:28:47
  what this, I know what this area record is.
• 1:28:50
  And like, I want to still like, keep us pushing towards that.
• 1:28:54
  Like if we relax too much, it's out of reach for me.
• 1:28:58
  I thought. So I was like, yeah, I just need
• 1:29:00
  to keep things going. And then, you know, as I get
• 1:29:03
  farther into it, I'm still like, OK, I'm in a position where
• 1:29:06
  like, I can try and win this, too.
• 1:29:07
  So cool. And will you maybe flashing
• 1:29:10
  forward to the Chicago Marathon, will you have an eye in terms of
• 1:29:13
  like, yeah, Connor Manse is sort of is having a go.
• 1:29:16
  And I did see in your second driven episode, there's a
• 1:29:21
  question about has there been some doubters about your sort of
• 1:29:25
  and they were probably at the time seen as more unconventional
• 1:29:28
  training methods in terms of high mileage.
• 1:29:30
  And I think you might have mentioned Coach Einstone maybe
• 1:29:33
  had some constructive feedback or some some commentary about
• 1:29:38
  it's not when but not if, but when you'll get injured.
• 1:29:41
  Are you, is it? I'm not trying to cause any beef
• 1:29:44
  here, but as a track fan I'm sort of wondering if you have
• 1:29:48
  any take on that. Well, I mean, he was right in
• 1:29:52
  the standpoint that I I did get injured, but I mean, I got
• 1:29:55
  injured off lower mileage in the Oregon project.
• 1:30:01
  You know, it's just kind of like a silly statement in general
• 1:30:05
  because like you could say that about any athlete, right?
• 1:30:09
  Someone's going to get injured at some point due to their
• 1:30:11
  training. Like it's just like, yeah, just
• 1:30:16
  kind of a weird thing to say in general.
• 1:30:17
  But I, I think I've proven at my point that I've had longevity
• 1:30:20
  within this sport more than a lot of athletes.
• 1:30:23
  And so, like, from that standpoint, I don't have
• 1:30:26
  anything to prove long since like eclipsed any sort of
• 1:30:33
  thought of a short career. So it's yeah, it's it's silly.
• 1:30:37
  Like, yeah, and it's long, long in the past at this point.
• 1:30:42
  Like I I don't even know the situation that he was asked that
• 1:30:46
  question. I don't know the context of it
• 1:30:48
  or anything either. So, you know, I would say if
• 1:30:53
  every negative comment someone said about me and got to me and
• 1:30:58
  I'd be in trouble. I'm sure, I'm sure a lot of bad
• 1:31:01
  crap has been said about me over the years, but it's like you
• 1:31:04
  just got to keep doing what you know works for yourself and like
• 1:31:09
  keep confidence, you know, like for as many people that are
• 1:31:13
  going to hate on you, there's always people in your corner and
• 1:31:16
  people that are hearing you on too.
• 1:31:18
  And like, you know, as long as I have even just my coach and
• 1:31:23
  family members, like that's enough as well, you know, and
• 1:31:28
  like, obviously yourself as well, like you have to continue
• 1:31:31
  to believe, like whether anyone else thinks so or not.
• 1:31:36
  And like, yeah, I'm, I'm super grateful for the people that
• 1:31:39
  have, you know, continued to be fans of me through ups and
• 1:31:42
  downs. I'm not exactly an incredibly
• 1:31:44
  consistent athlete all the time. So like I have real stinkers as
• 1:31:47
  far as races go to. But like, that's, that's just
• 1:31:50
  part of how it is for me. And I think part of just what my
• 1:31:54
  training takes to like, I'm, I'm an athlete that's to have
• 1:32:00
  success. Like my talent really lies in
• 1:32:04
  requiring a lot of training to show that.
• 1:32:06
  And like with that, I think comes some uncertainty with like
• 1:32:10
  how races will go when you take a lot of training in, there's
• 1:32:14
  not always like not always going to feel good coming out of that
• 1:32:17
  stuff. Like, you know, at least that's
• 1:32:20
  kind of how I see it. Like I work super hard and
• 1:32:24
  sometimes like it pays off and sometimes it doesn't.
• 1:32:30
  But when it when it does, I run incredibly well.
• 1:32:33
  I think. So like that's that's worth it
• 1:32:37
  to me. It's worth having some real bad
• 1:32:38
  races when I means on the right day I can be one of the best in
• 1:32:42
  the world. I think life can be a bit unfair
• 1:32:44
  at times, but you sort of know if you, if you do good and you,
• 1:32:50
  you put in a lot of hard work, sometimes that might pay off.
• 1:32:53
  And I think that's why so many people admire your story because
• 1:32:57
  it is, it's not some, it doesn't feel like it's necessarily some
• 1:33:03
  exceptional other than the talent to basically work really
• 1:33:07
  hard. And, and so I think it's such a
• 1:33:09
  nice thing to see hard work manufacture, you know, turn into
• 1:33:14
  you get these results for, for the hard work.
• 1:33:16
  And I think it's sort of inspiring for everyone else who
• 1:33:19
  who wants to work hard and sort of loves the marathon in
• 1:33:23
  particular because it feels like one of those areas in life where
• 1:33:26
  if you if you are able to do, you have to do the right things.
• 1:33:29
  Like, you know, it's the strength and conditioning, It's
• 1:33:31
  all it. There's various elements to it.
• 1:33:33
  But but hard work does tend to yield results with the marathon.
• 1:33:38
  I think that's why I think, yeah, we're obviously such huge
• 1:33:43
  fans of yours and, and yeah, just really appreciate you, you
• 1:33:47
  know, sharing a lot of this story.
• 1:33:48
  Yeah, of course. Yeah.
• 1:33:49
  I mean, it's worth saying that like, obviously it's not as if
• 1:33:54
  I'm not a talented athlete. Like you have to be very
• 1:33:58
  talented around this level. I mean, I of course understand
• 1:34:01
  what you what you mean I'm not Ilean Khichogi, you know, like,
• 1:34:05
  obviously not. I don't have that sort of track
• 1:34:07
  pedigree and the success he's had across many, many distances
• 1:34:11
  before, of course, being an absolutely incredible dominant
• 1:34:14
  marathoner. And yeah, I mean, like for
• 1:34:19
  myself, I I know I didn't win any incidentally titles until I
• 1:34:23
  was up to running three times a day and getting up into that 100
• 1:34:29
  and 5000 and 60 miles a week. Like, yeah, it's required a lot
• 1:34:31
  of work to run at the level that a lot of top top athletes do.
• 1:34:36
  I think with less. But yeah, I also think there's
• 1:34:42
  been other athletes, at least I like to think that other
• 1:34:44
  athletes that have seen what I've done and they've tried to
• 1:34:46
  replicate it and have had success as well.
• 1:34:49
  Like, that's great because like, I, I know I'm certainly not the
• 1:34:53
  only person in the world that requires this sort of stuff to
• 1:34:57
  like, you know, show their talent.
• 1:35:01
  And that's one of the things with running, Like there's just
• 1:35:03
  a lot of ways to approach training and find success.
• 1:35:08
  And like, my approach isn't for everybody, of course, just as
• 1:35:11
  someone else's approach is probably not for me either.
• 1:35:14
  But yeah, the one consistent thing is you got to put in the
• 1:35:18
  work. You really have to put in the
• 1:35:19
  work. And like whatever form that
• 1:35:21
  takes like that's, there's no skimping on that.
• 1:35:24
  I am what there's a YouTube ran to Japan or Jake Barakov,
• 1:35:29
  British guy and he's moved to he's moved from the UK to Japan
• 1:35:33
  and he's he he wrote a couple of questions in to ask you, which
• 1:35:37
  we've we've gone over, but he's on his own sort of marathon
• 1:35:42
  journey and he's got down to I think 2:14 and he's on his way
• 1:35:46
  down to more. But he's consistently knocking
• 1:35:49
  out 250 KSA week. And he credits you with a lot of
• 1:35:52
  the inspiration for for sort of his method.
• 1:35:55
  And he's sort of following a lot of Japanese traditional Japanese
• 1:35:58
  sort of training regimes, but is but he's a high, high mileage
• 1:36:03
  guy. Yeah, I think it's sort of, I
• 1:36:05
  don't know, it feels like running boomed in the 80s and
• 1:36:08
  then maybe lost its way a bit. And we're sort of getting back
• 1:36:10
  there and we're sort of learning from our sort of forefathers
• 1:36:13
  around the importance of sort of training hard and hard work and
• 1:36:16
  sort of getting back there. And so there are sort of more
• 1:36:19
  examples I think popping up of people putting in a lot of hard
• 1:36:22
  work. And so I think I just agree with
• 1:36:25
  your sentiment. Can I, can I, can I ask perhaps?
• 1:36:29
  No, I know I've taken up so much of your time.
• 1:36:31
  I'm so grateful. I don't want to gloss over the
• 1:36:34
  para Paris Olympics, but it just maybe just mentioned obviously
• 1:36:37
  third Olympics 36. So cut your cut your place in
• 1:36:40
  half from the previous Olympics. So you know, I didn't want
• 1:36:43
  didn't want to not mention that, but I maybe before we wrap up
• 1:36:46
  just we're we're all gonna be tuning in and into Tokyo in a
• 1:36:51
  couple of weeks time. How's this, how's this prep
• 1:36:54
  gone? And and what, what's, what are
• 1:36:57
  you hoping for? Well, this build up, well,
• 1:37:00
  actually, I guess I should start.
• 1:37:02
  So going into the Paris Olympics, I broke my foot a week
• 1:37:06
  before the race, unfortunately in training camp.
• 1:37:10
  So still like I didn't realize that it was broken at the time,
• 1:37:15
  but got an MRI right afterwards and that's what it what it
• 1:37:19
  showed. So I had some time after the
• 1:37:21
  fact rehabbing that and I've just sort of taken a slow year
• 1:37:27
  and just getting back into running and training.
• 1:37:29
  And so I would say coming into this build up here for the World
• 1:37:34
  Championships, this is like things are going well now, but
• 1:37:39
  it's been sort of like a slow year getting up to this point.
• 1:37:41
  But like, yeah, I'm, I'm moving well and cranking well now,
• 1:37:45
  particularly the last six weeks, 677 weeks so far.
• 1:37:48
  So like, yeah, I'm, I'm in a great place now, but it's like I
• 1:37:52
  didn't want to rush things after the Olympics after that.
• 1:37:54
  But yeah, in a, in a great spot. Done lots and lots of heat prep.
• 1:37:58
  My altitude treadmill is been doubling as a sauna for me right
• 1:38:02
  as well. I've been using this like core
• 1:38:06
  temperature tracker to make, yeah, getting like a good hour
• 1:38:12
  above like this temperature threshold that we want.
• 1:38:14
  So we're doing lots of baths and yeah, I've I'm feeling really
• 1:38:18
  smooth again with workouts like the, the times are iffy because
• 1:38:23
  like I'm just training in the heat of the day as well.
• 1:38:26
  So it sort of depends what the day kind of looks like.
• 1:38:28
  But like running well and I'll be interested to see like how
• 1:38:33
  good I am right now. I don't really have a great feel
• 1:38:37
  for exactly how I'm going to stack up against this field, but
• 1:38:39
  like I'm training fast and like I'm going into this race like
• 1:38:45
  going to try and place better than I did at Eugene.
• 1:38:47
  Like that's like I'm racing with that intention.
• 1:38:51
  So, but who knows what that looks like?
• 1:38:53
  I have no idea. I feel like, you know, I'm still
• 1:38:57
  going around that three minute kilometers or faster pace and
• 1:39:02
  I'm feeling good. So we'll we'll see what that
• 1:39:05
  means. I don't know.
• 1:39:06
  I'm yeah, like I have. I haven't missed any workouts or
• 1:39:10
  any training and I've been moving fast.
• 1:39:14
  So like, I don't see why it wouldn't go well.
• 1:39:18
  But you never know. It's a marathon.
• 1:39:20
  But I'm I'm fully prepared. I think that's a great teaser
• 1:39:24
  for us all just to get excited. So is it September the 15th?
• 1:39:28
  I think that we'll be dialing in and Tokyo's a friendly time zone
• 1:39:32
  for for us Aussies. So we'll be.
• 1:39:36
  Yeah, it's, I much prefer the travel there than to Europe for
• 1:39:41
  myself as well. Just for whatever reason,
• 1:39:43
  traveling that direction is is easier for me.
• 1:39:46
  So I'm, I'm grateful to be racing there.
• 1:39:49
  Yeah. And it'll be nice to go back
• 1:39:51
  there and get some revenge for Sapporo being one of the last
• 1:39:53
  guys there. I'm excited to reverse that.
• 1:39:58
  Yeah, it's been a tale of two, you know, two stories really,
• 1:40:01
  hasn't it? With the sort of.
• 1:40:03
  The Tokyo marathon, but the, the Olympic marathon.
• 1:40:07
  So yeah, I, I wish you the absolute best.
• 1:40:11
  And I guess just, yeah, just thank you so much.
• 1:40:13
  I've, I've learnt so much and you've been so generous with
• 1:40:16
  your, your insights and your time.
• 1:40:18
  And yeah, on behalf of sort of the Easy double podcast
• 1:40:22
  community, just a huge thank you for, for coming on.
• 1:40:24
  And yeah, very best of luck and we'll be, we'll be cheering for
• 1:40:27
  you. Thank you.
• 1:40:29
  I appreciate it. Yeah.
• 1:41:13
  The.