Latest / Graymalkin Lane the podcast / Avengers 1959! Featuring Cameron Hebron, Matt Parent, Ruthanne Price, Scotty deGeest, and Manolis Vamvounis!

Transcript

Avengers 1959! Featuring Cameron Hebron, Matt Parent, Ruthanne Price, Scotty deGeest, and Manolis Vamvounis! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody, welcome back to the Great Moken Link podcast.
• 0:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're queer friends and allies gathered to review and discuss the original X-Men comics in continuity order I hope you are enjoying the content in November on the show the theme as we will remind you is fascism in pop culture Which is all over our comics all over our X-Men comics in every movie book and comic you have ever read or viewed or consumed It's crazy how much it interfaces with our culture.
• 0:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're
• 0:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be jumping into the world of new Avengers volume too.
• 0:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is not a favorite for a ton of people for a lot of reasons.
• 0:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Brian Michael Mendis in 2021 launched on Ultimate Spider-Man, which swept the entire industry with the potential.
• 0:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's now a few years later, and he is writing the Avengers, he's writing X-Men, he's all over the place.
• 0:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: We are now in the Dark Rain Era, which is fondly remembered.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Norman Osborn is taking over the government.
• 0:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Avengers and the main book are living in hiding.
• 1:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got the roster of Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Ms. Marvel, Ironfist, Dr.
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Strange, the thing Spider-Man Wolverine and Mockingbird, who just came back from the dead in the secret invasion storyline.
• 1:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we are all over with the Avengers and hiding from the agents of Hammer.
• 1:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: New Avengers volume 2 in Issues 9 through 13, we get a backup story that's done by Howard Chacon, and it is a ride.
• 1:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the story we're here to talk about today.
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a backup story from some random issues of the new Avengers that lead into a limited series that immediately follows this called The Avengers 1959.
• 1:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So watch for that conversation later on by show.
• 1:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: But this is that weird time that Saber Tooth joined the Avengers in the 1950s.
• 1:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm thrilled to have two of my dear friends here with me for this show.
• 1:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me have you both introduce yourselves.
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me a little about you, your name and pronouns.
• 1:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just gonna like, we're just gonna do jump right into review today.
• 1:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So tell me what it was like for you jumping into the world of new Avengers volume too.
• 1:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me welcome my friend Ruth Ann Price, who is always willing to take any ride, even if she has no idea what's going on.
• 2:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: not even if I never have any idea of what's going on.
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, I feel like that's the role that I play, which is fine.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I'm Ruth Ann Price.
• 2:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, she they, I am a public librarian just north of Toronto and I have no idea what's going on.
• 2:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did you have fun looking into these crazy comics?
• 2:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: I did.
• 2:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: It was a lot of fun actually.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: It was I liked the the disparity between the art so that you could tell like when you were in the 59 and when you were in the modern set in the back and forth.
• 2:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then at the end it actually came together and it all made sense why they existed in the same book.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yes, yes.
• 2:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: pop culture.
• 2:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: I had forgotten about this.
• 2:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: I had read a bunch of this because the squirrel girl is a recurring character in this series.
• 2:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's the nanny for a little dead little Daniel Cage.
• 3:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's absolutely.
• 3:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I really loved Alias, which was the series that Jessica Jones used to appear in and she's this was the sort of extension of her story, our part of her story.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it was really fun to come back to this book that I hadn't probably read and I don't know probably 15 years and
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So brand Michael Bendis writes a great loop cage.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: He brought spider woman back really prominently.
• 3:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is when Wolverine joins the Avengers.
• 3:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Scotty, were you reading during Dark Rain?
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is this an era of comics that you enjoyed?
• 3:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: I was reading Dark Rain pretty heavily.
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I really enjoyed it.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: I thought it was a really clever take.
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I was liked it because it was an interesting moment for Marvel Comics to say, oh, yes, Spider-Man's bad guys are really actually very bad.
• 3:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is what happens if like, Spider-Man's not keeping Norman Osborne in check.
• 3:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is right at the end of my time on the handbooks.
• 3:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was involved in the Dark Reigns stuff.
• 3:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote a lot of the Dark Reigns files, but I came out in 2011, which is the year this was published, and then published my graphic novel, The Mushroom Reuters right after this.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is right as I was leaving the books.
• 4:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've screwed all of the scripts and advance, and have to keep all the databases of the characters.
• 4:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember these stories very intimately.
• 4:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, in the main story, we see the group fighting one of Norman Osborn's right-hand people, Superior, who is the feminist, like scientists who wants to sterilize all men and create like a Amazonian warrior planet for super-women.
• 4:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about her a little bit in the
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: that we have tangentially touched upon.
• 4:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's incredible.
• 4:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I must eventually do a superior trial or something with Sarah's entry, of course, but it would be like an all lesbian jury.
• 4:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: The superiors back in like black leather here and like doing evil hammer things in the present day.
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: In the present story, we see Mockingbird get mortally wounded in combat kind of randomly.
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, this is a story that gives Mockingbird a really push up, right?
• 4:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, Secret Invasion happened and they brought Mockingbird back.
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is before she's on television in the agents of shield show.
• 5:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we get the character on TV in a more prominent way.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're really trying to amper up and make her work.
• 5:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So at the end of this, she gets like a derivative of the super-seared soldier serum that like powers her up to a different degree.
• 5:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the story in the past, which is where we're gonna be focusing on conversation.
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at the creation of this particular substance that will be used in the future.
• 5:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Ruth, are you a mockingbird fan?
• 5:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is this a character you know?
• 5:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I know Mockingbird's name because I know that she and Haka used to be married and I learned that from reading Matt Frexion's Hawkeye Run.
• 5:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: So I felt very smart.
• 5:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mark Greenwald's West Coast, uh, Hawkeye's era West Coast Avengers stuff and her involvement in the team.
• 5:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy.
• 5:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really good.
• 5:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Her early 80s stuff.
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's, it's great.
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, pots.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: You would get further developed in 2016 in that Chelsea Kane series that she was in where
• 5:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then this one, she had a lot of fun, it was great to hear good to do stuff.
• 5:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, do we like Wolverine and Irvingers just hot take from both of you?
• 6:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: And no, no, he's just not a team guy.
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you know, yeah.
• 6:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, if you think Wolverine's not a team guy, let's talk about Sabre too.
• 6:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's just, they're kind of the same, right?
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, don't let Jean Grey hear that.
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: But the thing I'm Wolverine on a team is on an Avengers team is his wild, but that's what we are.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this was trying to like JLA the team, right?
• 6:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like let's put all of your most popular characters on a team.
• 6:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why is where Spider-Man of Wolverine not here if that's going to help the book sell?
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Which I kind of get, right?
• 6:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's it's what kind of pushed them forward.
• 6:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Avengers were just hitting major popularity here.
• 6:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: The movies were happening and like the characters were starting to get more prominence as the MCUs really taking off.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I have a lot of thoughts on the timing whinyness of it all, but I'm going to save those for the latter half of this conversation with the Avengers 1959 review.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do want to say very quickly the art that we're seeing here is by Howard Chacon.
• 6:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Howard Chacon is a classic Marvel creator.
• 7:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was born in like the 1950s.
• 7:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's around my mom's age and was kind of a post-World War II kid.
• 7:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now Howard has done a lot of things.
• 7:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: He created the character Dominic Fortune.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: and has recently done a Dominic Fortune Limited series just before this.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of my problems with Howard Chacon is his women often seem like they are there to either get fucked or murdered.
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: He draws them all in very scanty clothing.
• 7:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: He, I do like some of his storytelling technique and I think his arts really original.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: He loves to go back and do like a gold-nage story and that's what this is.
• 7:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I'm mentioning quickly, the year is very firmly put at 1959 here.
• 7:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Marvel World War II is like set in stone as in the 1930s, early 40s, right?
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And all of our characters, the origin of the Marvel Universe is always like 12 to 15 years ago.
• 7:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when Spider-Man debuted in 1963, we were meant to believe it was like less than 20 years since the war.
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: But now Spider-Man is like all of his stories are only 12 years old in continuity.
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So,
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: he actually wasn't born into like 2002 or something, right, at this point.
• 8:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, so the sliding timescale makes all of this kind of monkey, but all of the characters that we see in the Avengers 1959 have a reason to still be alive.
• 8:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of playable characters who are effectively long-lived if not immortal.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, Mistique would have been a character they could have used here, but they're not using Wolverine, they're using Saber Tooth, which is already a wild journey.
• 8:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about the lineup of this book, As they develop, and I'm just going to kind of jump in with some very brief reviews.
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We get Mike Diodado doing the art in the present, and we get Howard Chacon doing the art in the past.
• 8:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Howard Chacon is both the writer and penciler on the following limited series of Enders 1959, which begins at the end of this story.
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're only focusing on the flashbacks here, so if anyone's reading along.
• 8:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: In issue 9, we have a scene in Cuba, where Nick Fury, Dumb Dugan, and Gabe Jones of the How-In-Commandos are hunting down some escape Nazis, and they're very clearly, uh, there's violence used against these characters.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: They are killed in bloody horrible ways, and our heroes are very much like you fucking deserve this, you Nazis, which is a crazy thing we don't always see violence on the page in this way.
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then Fury is summoned by the president.
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, who's doing D.I.S.
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: in power?
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't name him on the page, but Eisenhower is the president who's summoned Nick Fury back because he has a special mission.
• 9:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're wasting all your time hunting Nazis, right?
• 9:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is the era where Magneto would have been doing the same.
• 9:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: But real life, a lot of Nazis escape justice, and there were people all over history who were hunting them down in places like...
• 9:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Cuba and South America and other spots.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: We jump all over the place in this.
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Scotty, let me hear your thoughts on the cover of Issue 10.
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very beefcakey.
• 9:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's...
• 9:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's all the gay boys and Nemora.
• 9:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Nemora was easily the best part of this series.
• 9:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is many of series.
• 9:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I was very pleased to see that she got to come.
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the more I was getting a big push in this era because the other Avengers of the 1950s were back in a big way as the agents of Atlas in the books happening at this time as well.
• 9:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's a great cover.
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: It really sets up the vibe, like they have a classic car from the 50s.
• 10:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I could not tell you what car that was.
• 10:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: It is a great job of setting up the tone for that backstory in that issue.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it was great.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: All the covers were really nice actually.
• 10:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: I really enjoyed
• 10:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Diodado is a bodybuilder, as well as an artist I believe.
• 10:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: He loves to draw a beef cakey guy.
• 10:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So San Francisco featured very prominently in a little sexy pose on the front of the car here.
• 10:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: His chest is huge.
• 10:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's not missing his pushups.
• 10:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: We jump into Issutet and in the flashbacks, we shift to MagraPore, where a fury and dumb dumb dogan have it.
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: found Victor Creed staying.
• 10:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now this would have been his like team X era, right?
• 10:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: This character's already like a senior citizen at this point.
• 10:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's in a big bar fight.
• 10:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: They pull him out.
• 10:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: He threatens to cut Fury open.
• 10:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Dugan just shoots him right in the head and he is better like five seconds later.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is his healing factor at like maximum capacity.
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: He just like stands back up.
• 10:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Fury says, I'm Nick Fury Victor.
• 11:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna put you to work.
• 11:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here to convince you, you're wasting your time beating on these poor people.
• 11:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here to put you on my black ops initiative.
• 11:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have full clearances and a hell of a goap goalpost.
• 11:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Revent, are you a seemer tooth fan?
• 11:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: The fan is probably a strong word.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of enjoy him sort of on the fringes of my awareness.
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't dislike saber teeth.
• 11:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: he's a bad bad guy.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the that's the key.
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: I love savory truth as a villain.
• 11:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: One of my favorite experiments stories is the one with with sidewalk or that's a being chased through the mansion by savory truth after the after the massacre.
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: So he's a lot of fun and I really enjoyed the most recent savory truth for Ark.
• 11:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: So love is that I love was an eggshell and he's great.
• 11:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, he's weird as a protagonist at any time, though.
• 11:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 11:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: We move forward to Paris where Dominic Fortune is fucking a woman in lingerie who has the tiniest little panties on fishnets.
• 11:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Ruth, I mean, we find out this woman was a Nazi, but were you pleased to see this sexy how a chicken day on the page?
• 12:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no.
• 12:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, just not my style.
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: They were very, yeah, no.
• 12:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Would you wear this outfit?
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely not.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: So uncomfortable completely impractical.
• 12:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a little lingerie set you guys like but this is the kind of lingerie that would take like 45 minutes to put on like it's so much effort She she turns out to be an Aussie and she tries to kill fortune but fortune jumps out the window and gets in fury's car and they drive away
• 12:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: uh this lady's still alive out there this lingerie not see woman apparently she she's survived we shift to Florida where we see Nemora in a teeny bikini on the beach and apparently she's fighting craven the hunter which is a wild story Sergei Craven office in Florida and dating in Atlantean princess apparently this is continuity
• 12:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sabritooth is there with fearing the others.
• 12:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Craven remembers meeting Sabritooth at one point in Africa and shoot some again.
• 12:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's shot.
• 12:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the more is like, oh my god, Craven, you keep embarrassing me everywhere we go.
• 12:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Scotty, tell us who the more is.
• 13:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's amazing.
• 13:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Nemora, this is Submariner's cousin, right?
• 13:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
• 13:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: So she's in a lantern princess.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: She has most of the powers that NAMOR does.
• 13:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's got support of his principal weaknesses too.
• 13:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: But does that recall?
• 13:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: She has a much even, she's an even more sort of harsh relationship with the surface world.
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's very, she's very at peace with being and at lantern.
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: She has to mix origins, but you know in the 40s she's just the female name or she's not used a lot until this kind of era in like the 2010 She gets a one shot.
• 13:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's on the agents of Atlas.
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: She gets a push here.
• 13:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Namorists considered him mutant.
• 13:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nemora is technically not But sometimes she is but also she one time she cloned herself
• 13:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: and then implanted herself in her stomach as a fetus and later gave birth to herself and that's namoreta who's like in the new warriors who is also canonically a mutant sometimes but also not others.
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Nemora is amazing.
• 13:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Atlantean Wonder Woman if you will.
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was just excited to see a woman join the team even in 1959, frankly.
• 13:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But she's also need more cousin, but also they like made out once it's, yeah.
• 14:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It don't, we don't need to remember that.
• 14:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, I guess the story is your reverse.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember that one.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's very fun.
• 14:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: I've just heard about her, right, Chad?
• 14:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have not done an episode about Nimura, although I really like her.
• 14:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Who was the Atlanta that you've done an episode?
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I have a Submariner trial.
• 14:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Lyra, you're thinking of Lyra, that's true.
• 14:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lyra Morris is amazing.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
• 14:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so we move on to Boston.
• 14:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is where you list this bloodstone is here.
• 14:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: The father of Elsa and Collin, I think that's all you need.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Silver Sable, like the dad, the Nazi hunter dad of our favorite Silver Sable, this is Ernst Sablinova.
• 14:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I know that the handbook guys were working with the editorial teams in this era.
• 14:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guarantee there were some lists printed of like all the characters that are on the playing field circa 1959 and then they picked a bunch.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: But let's don't and save a little don't really get anything to do in this story, if I'm honest, but they're here and they're in fancy clothes.
• 14:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: If we had just had Craven Sabre Tooth and Nemora and Fury, I think that's all we needed for this whole story.
• 15:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm honest, I think the others are a little bit supplemental.
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: If Silver Sabre weren't there, who would have driven the truck?
• 15:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, any of the other characters?
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: Dominic was good, but yeah, it is it's a weird moment of like, yes, they're here and then they don't actually do very much in the plot.
• 15:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Although I did love this this team up right because these are both I generally really enjoy like as he characters and so I really enjoyed this meeting between, you know, Elsa and it gave me an interesting idea for like, oh, what if Elsa and Silver Sabre will kind of have a modern day team up.
• 15:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: When everyone arrives in Boston, they're all dressed up in their fanciest fancy clothes.
• 15:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sabre Tuth looks like a like a newsy
• 15:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 15:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Guys, Craven the Hunter has this leopard print hat and shirt, they're giving, I don't know, it's very, I don't know, it doesn't feel, if it was morning, 1920s, then 1950s to me, it feels very gatsby.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It feels a little rep-trow.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: It feels, right, but like this is a thing, right?
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, fashions sometimes, you know, you look back about 30 years and that's like the kip and cool thing and that's what they're doing here, right?
• 16:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love it, it just feels like a bag on era in some ways, I don't know.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this group is named the Avengers by the president, which is a weird thing continuity wise for me because it predates the other Avengers, which is the wasp named them that.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, there's also apparently the red skulls here, but it's not the red skull we've been talking about on my show.
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the only appearance of one particular red skull imposter.
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we have a Nazi in 1959, which I'm to issue 11 in Sweden.
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nick Fury gets this line of dialogue.
• 16:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I tell you since the big war, I hate giving out intel.
• 16:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't gathered myself.
• 16:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: asked me and tells like a lady, the more hands that touch it, the worse it gets.
• 16:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Ruth Ann, how are do you feel about this particular statement?
• 16:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I really did he say it in front of Nimura because I'm surprised that he's still standing if he did.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, so it's, yeah, it's gross off the time, but gross.
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it tells like a lady, the more hands that touch it, the worse it gets.
• 16:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Fuck that statement, I hated it, I hated it for the writer, I hated it for the character
• 17:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: He also says, you are Avengers now, you've been picked to speak for every lost life and soul ripped down by the nightmare of the third Reich.
• 17:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've been called here to serve, not by our president, but by every dead soldier.
• 17:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Each one of them is demanding that you stand up and rip down whatever it is the Red Skull is built here.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know, hell, we all know, some of you have done some questionable things in your life, save her to the mass murderer, that's my added line of dialogue.
• 17:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here to give you a chance to make things good with God.
• 17:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is your chance to be able to look back on this and say on that day at least I did the right thing.
• 17:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And save her tooth goes, yeah, yeah, we're all pumped, what's the plan?
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Scotty, would you join up after hearing Nick Fury's speech?
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it was an empowering, is an impassioned speech.
• 17:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: I kind of liked it, but this particular group of Fortune Hunters and Psycho's, like, neighborhoods are... You know, like that, the, you know, by might be lost there.
• 17:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a group of misogynists and an Atlantean princess, like that's the whole light up here, it's really crazy.
• 18:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Victor Creed pretends to be dead so that a Nazi will pull over and check on him and then again, it is very violent toward the Nazis in this.
• 18:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: We get this image of like claws across this guys throat and blood spraying everywhere.
• 18:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So then they have a truck, they're able to sneak into the base, they come out fighting, they're all wearing black and they're just slaughtering Nazis.
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Could get shot a whole bunch of times in this.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost a running gag in the series name or bizarrely and excuse me, and then we get this double page spread of Nemora straddling a whale and like breaching the walls of a Swedish castle Nazi base
• 18:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: truly, truly, why what is the castle on the water?
• 18:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Where did the whale come from?
• 18:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: Is the whale okay?
• 18:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: What is going on?
• 18:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Double-page spread with like reaction shots across the bottom like what the hell?
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: I was not what I was expecting.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I can say.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: They did not do a good job of establishing any of that, although it is very nice to see the more, just being like, you boys are kind of doing this kind of half-assed.
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to like, trigger this and I'm going to use whales.
• 19:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's also this odd little page where Saber tweets like holding a Nazi up with like Claas and his nostrils.
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think he got him underneath while his claws up the Nazis knows the art is a little bit wild and all of this.
• 19:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I looked at that a lot because I was like, I feel like something is happening here.
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I can't see it.
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know what's going to happen.
• 19:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the cloud doesn't move.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a silent panel, but then there's blood.
• 19:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so you I think you have to assume he got a viscerated like down below.
• 19:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 19:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so we have a fake red skull here who has created his own fake Captain America.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now there's a lot of reasons for people to be alive in the present.
• 19:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Captain America has a super soldier serum, Bucky, the Winter Soldier, was Captain Suspended Animation, the Red Skull, like was dosed by a gas that kept him inert for years.
• 19:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: The character Nick Fury takes something called the Infinity Formula, which prolongs his life.
• 19:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe the Black Widow has the same thing.
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: they both are using the same thing to stay alive.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently the Nazis in this era in 1959 have like altered the infinity formula with some variation with the super soldier serum and they're going to use it to create like a new race of mastermen because they're so fucking obsessed with creating Aryan super soldiers.
• 20:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: God damn it, we've talked about that a lot I'll show this month because it's a major plot all the time.
• 20:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Captain America is one version of that.
• 20:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was turned into cap because a Nazi scientist defected to America and brought the formula with him.
• 20:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's, anyway, okay.
• 20:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, there's a, there's a fake Nazi Captain America, but dressed like our Captain America, but our cap is asleep at this point in the iceberg.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the 1950s McCarthy cap is like off some more adults.
• 20:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, this is another Captain America, but also not the other two that replaced
• 20:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Steve Rogers after the war, but before the 1950s.
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Capwalks out of the flames, we jump to 12.
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Creed kills the whole bunch of Nazis, and he gets to tell this new red skull.
• 21:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to wear your head on a neck chain, little Hitler, which is maybe my favorite line in the whole series.
• 21:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Skull calls him a demon from hell, but also a dog.
• 21:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Craven accidentally shoots Creed in the head at one point, is like, oh fuck, like Craven's favorite dude is good again me now.
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Red Skull tries escaping, they explode his submarine, then they capture him, question him, and then Creed cuts off his full fucking head.
• 21:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's a body and then a head in the water behind the body afterward.
• 21:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Daddy, do you have a
• 21:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: thoughts on the Craven Creed relationship?
• 21:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really, really love it and now I want to see them fight each other and the president because it feels exactly right, although I think that Craven is currently deceased, right?
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: So guys, let's have a picture of the moment.
• 21:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he cloned himself 47 times and then made them all fight to the death and the one that's running around now is like the top clone, but it's also him short.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Good job.
• 21:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I did welcome Craven.
• 22:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really agree with it.
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with it.
• 22:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: And also, I do love the point where he's talking about there's a the page where the red scroll is just kind of like saying they're talking about we're going to kill all these killers American intervals well by and then this guy gets to headshot off and the school just goes looks up until the left is like, oh crap and it's it's great it's very solid.
• 22:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: we uh we close in 13 where we don't even see create anymore but again check out the following conversation on Avengers 1959 we jump to uh London and Cuba where we get the resolution of the story basically they took this serum away and then we forward it to the present where mockingbird gets it and now she's kind of amped up a little bit.
• 23:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I lost been a few minutes talking about the use of violence in these books.
• 23:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a 2010 era.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nick Fury was always a war character.
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's always been the soldier or the soldier who's now like trying to run the CIA and fight corruption in the government, right?
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then right before the story is where we learned he did a bunch of really corrupt shit and he murdered the watcher on the moon and like took his eyeballs.
• 23:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you guys remember that whole story?
• 23:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So with this era at Marvel, Nick Fury's like chained on the moon and like called the Unseen, so we're seeing another war story for him.
• 23:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like pre-shield pre-CIA Nick Fury, uh, complicated character.
• 23:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: But let's talk about the use of violence in this book for a moment.
• 23:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a 2011 story based in 1959.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of violence, not against the heroes, uh, except for Creed, who's not a hero.
• 23:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: He gets shot a whole bunch.
• 23:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there's some pretty gnarly violence used
• 23:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: It was, it was, it's sort of like the comics, you know, culmination of punch and Nazi.
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: There was something cathartic about watching it happen.
• 24:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: I have to admit when Victor Creed beheaded red skull, I was a little bit relieved, just because there was a whole lot of time spent trying to figure out what everyone was doing and what was going on and you just sort of get to the point where like, just stop talking and do something and say, we're toothed it that for me, so I had a moment of affinity for him, what can I say?
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: what you want to be able to do, right?
• 24:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's that sort of expression of what we all secretly wish we could do sometimes, maybe.
• 24:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for those of you following the Red School Conversations, there's been a lot of conversations about like fascism and Nazism as kind of a backdrop of all of our superhero stories, Superman, Captain America, they're all kind of created from this mold, right?
• 24:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Our entire Hollywood industry was transformed by this.
• 24:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we have a lot of Nazi, sci-fi films, we have a lot of Nazi time travel, but films, we have a lot of Nazi comedies, which is crazy.
• 24:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then we get movies like Inglorious Bastards, which is like very much a violence against Nazis film.
• 24:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you guys have seen this Quentin Tarantino film, they all die in really horribly bloody ways.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is an era in comics where we're seeing not, we're still seeing swastikas on the page, which is something they've found on in comics now, but we also see a ton of visceral violence,
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're almost wondering if this is bendest and Jake and trying to do in glorious bastards a little bit.
• 25:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: This, we're in the brief window where Marvel has been very successful, but it is not quite been bought by Disney yet, correct?
• 25:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so yeah, so this is very much the joke aside, let's make comments for adults moment, and I think that's part of why they have so much of the hyper violence in the in the book.
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of story about the use of violence in this particular sophistication.
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: I had made the connection to think lawyers, but it's very apparent right of a page now because
• 25:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is more effort put into the recruitment of the team story almost than there is like the mission or it's effect itself, right?
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like we put a crazy team together and killed some Nazis, which is very in glorious bastards.
• 26:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But so it's like this kind of odd violent feel.
• 26:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is what Tarantino does.
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's let's make a film about people doing horrible violence to the people that deserve it because we'd have strong feelings if the violence was being shown toward innocent characters, right?
• 26:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, the threat of Nazis is
• 26:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everywhere is another story that's like very present here to the point that mockingbird ends up getting saved because of Nazi scientists like, you know, it's it's kind of intense everything.
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are your thoughts on this topic?
• 26:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's it's a little wishful sermon right like as someone who generally does not espouse violence in real life.
• 26:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's it's that outlet to to see someone else doing it like, you know when when something bad happens and you come home and you talk about all the things you wish you could do to someone
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: the talking about them is is the release right so i think it's it's sort of that escapist moment but also like it gives you something like in that respect this is not very clear
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're forming your thoughts live, which is one of my favorite things on this show when I get to put my thoughts together in real Yeah, it's it's it's like you're realizing how you feel about it.
• 27:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, just like and escape this moment, but also like really gives you something emotional in the moment What you know the fascists are always the bad guys you would think that they would know this by now
• 27:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the five issue series, the follows, this is the same team, also in 1959, also fighting a deep Nazi plot, but this one's funded by the American government, there's some problems in this story.
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Howard Chicken stories always have some problems.
• 27:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, I mean, I like some of this guy's work, but also he is not great to women, and especially trans women, sometimes, so we're just going to let that be there, and I'm allowed to be critical.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Welcomely at it, that whole block out.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do we have any thoughts on the character moments character developments?
• 27:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anything you want to point out from the series that you really liked?
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I will say I've said this before.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really like bend this generally every time that he's writing something but not expended.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: There are lots of really quoteable quotes in Avengers 19, this Avengers 1959 break like you pull out a couple of them.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it really does remind me, he does a really great job of writing really effective and snappy dialogue and really effective plots and setups here.
• 28:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's an excellent, excellent, excellent, it's a well-paced and excellent read.
• 28:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: Who's it?
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I agree with that.
• 28:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of enjoyed just the little tiny details on the sides, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage is like the phone calls and the real relationship.
• 28:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: You can see there, it builds that marriage without having to go into a lot of stuff.
• 28:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: So sometimes I struggle with bendous.
• 28:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: I a lot of times I have to read it and then read some stuff about it and then read him talking about it and then go back and read it again.
• 28:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: But this one I didn't have as many problems with.
• 28:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I like a hmm, here's me sorting out thoughts in real time.
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like about.
• 28:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Bendis, his dialogue is always very fun.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's got a deep sense of character and he's willing to take his time with that, like, alias is an incredible series and it's so talking headsy.
• 29:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Bendis and Chicken are kind of an odd mix in that way.
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's kind of a dialogue thing and the actions happening kind of out of the corner of your eye and then there'll be a big splash page suddenly.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I also like that Bendis will give long-term plots.
• 29:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not usually one-off villains.
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's usually kind of exploring a big concept over a long time.
• 29:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he does Norman Osmort for a few years.
• 29:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: He does the hood for a few years.
• 29:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even the superior story goes on for a while.
• 29:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always like that about him as well, but you just don't have that kind of room in comics these days.
• 29:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is also an era of like returned.
• 29:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like 90s art again.
• 29:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the art feels really big and feels really like all the characters are really huge and take up a lot of space.
• 29:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, there's kind of our thoughts on the intro to Avengers 1959.
• 29:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned.
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to learn our half of this episode.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be jumping into the rest of that five-issue series.
• 29:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Where again, it's our time exploring an early Victor Creed story as we slowly bring a Sabre-2-Thont in your unlocking lane.
• 29:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any thoughts from either of you in conclusion before we wrap up?
• 29:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, now I have to go read Avengers 1959.
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, you're welcome to, or you can just hear me talk about it.
• 30:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a journey.
• 30:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is the high point of the Avengers 1959.
• 30:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's have a pat.
• 30:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the more on the way is stupid, is that was, is the best thing you're going to get out of the whole thing?
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, create like a assassinating.
• 30:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there is a group of like super powered Nazi women in Avengers 1959, called the Uber Mansion, and they have names like,
• 30:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Panzer Penny and like Axis Annie.
• 30:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to go see them, you can look them up.
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Saber tooth kills all of them.
• 30:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: While they're, while they're tied up.
• 30:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, Lodge.
• 30:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Lodge a rake lethal, perhaps, you know.
• 30:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that was the woman in this issue that was fucking dominant fortune.
• 30:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what we should call her.
• 30:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's later Hosen Louise and Lodge and Lisa.
• 30:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: When she's a good girl, this later holds in Louise.
• 30:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: But when she's, when she's in her negligee, it's a, it's a lingerie, Lisa.
• 30:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love it very much.
• 31:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, I love you both very much.
• 31:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is kind of a, a quick simple one because we didn't have the professional interview, but thanks everybody for listening.
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you're enjoying the content and uh, uh, keep, stay tuned.
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll do my plugs at the end of the show.
• 31:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Working people find both of you, anything you'd like to plug.
• 31:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll let's go Scotty and then Ruth.
• 31:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I talked to people all the time on Scotty Love's comics on Instagram.
• 31:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: So please find me there.
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: And you can find me also on Instagram.
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm at Head of Dabler and I don't know.
• 31:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't really do much.
• 31:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm wandering around.
• 31:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: You'll run it to me someplace someday.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And watch for both of them on my show often because I love you both and your delicious and wonderful.
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So thanks everybody for listening.
• 31:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you back here in just a few
• 31:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 31:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 31:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 31:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 31:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 31:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 32:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thrilled to be joined by three friends who kind of joined me last minute for this one, because we just kind of put this one together, Hodgepodge.
• 32:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's filling a gap on the show that was needed.
• 32:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So three of my favorite people are here with me today to talk about this crazy journey.
• 32:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me have you each introduce yourselves, let with your name and pronouns.
• 32:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us a little about you.
• 32:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And our intro question today is simply, we have a crazy cast of characters in Avengers 1959.
• 32:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to hear who was your favorite.
• 32:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me welcome Manola Smith on us back to the show.
• 32:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi Manola, it's great to see you.
• 32:34
  [SPEAKER_07]: hello sad thanks for having me ah my husband is here my pronouns are he c i'm coming all the way from Greece i'm a comics part time writer part time journal here in Greece a lot of podcasts and podcasts i think my standout i won't say no more because everyone will say no more i will say the blonde funtum because i just love the lady who will slink into a
• 33:01
  [SPEAKER_07]: That's my label.
• 33:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the gaseo everybody if you're just needing to remember.
• 33:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But and let me welcome Cameron.
• 33:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Haven't to the show for the first time.
• 33:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Cameron.
• 33:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
• 33:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's great to see you.
• 33:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
• 33:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Cameron.
• 33:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am a healthcare advocacy consultant right now.
• 33:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to make a bit of a pivot in a few months.
• 33:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Huge fan of colleagues.
• 33:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Huge nerd.
• 33:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And my favorite character.
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know she's an
• 33:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Those were good villains.
• 33:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna talk all about the Ubeda Mudge and in just a few minutes But over on the Patreon channel this month.
• 33:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing character episodes as we always do pre-assaksina And I think I'd chase join me for an episode all about warrior woman who is like the ultimate version of like the Nazi lady She wears like a swastika bra cup that she's like punchy.
• 33:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's I mean, she's terrible.
• 33:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's terrible But yeah, then there's something about the lady Nazi that like it's not the same as Masterman who's her counterpart
• 33:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me also look at the map fair to the show.
• 34:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Matt.
• 34:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, there.
• 34:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm at Pyrenees.
• 34:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: They've been pronouns.
• 34:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: You would probably expect me if you've listened to me on Grey Mulk and Lane to say that Saber Tooth was my favorite part of this team.
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: But actually, Dr. Rangatang is amazing in the three pages that he exists in.
• 34:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just the name alone.
• 34:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Rangatang is a previously established Marvel character.
• 34:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of many Marvel monkey characters.
• 34:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've had some monkey conversations on my show as well.
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lastly, I'm Chad Anderson.
• 34:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I see him pronouns.
• 34:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a weird series.
• 34:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, none of you did it.
• 34:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I get to pick Nemora.
• 34:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't Nemora book, and Nemora is the only one.
• 34:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's Nemora's world, the rest of the character.
• 34:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're just living in it.
• 34:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is all about Nemora.
• 34:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she's the only character in it who is a female.
• 34:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: who is not kind of horribly treated.
• 34:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Blon Phantom gets a couple great moments, but I mean, we're going to stay right out front as we review this book.
• 34:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's from 2011, it is very sexist and it is very racist, but not like super on the surface.
• 35:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about it as we go.
• 35:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we're going to jump into World War II history for just a moment.
• 35:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: 1944 is when the war kind of finally winds down.
• 35:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of Nazis who were held accountable after the dropping of the bombs.
• 35:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have kind of the closing of history, Germany's divided, and then there are the Nuremberg trials, but a lot of people got away.
• 35:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And some of the things we've been talking about in the Red School conversations are how there are a ton of Marvel villains built on Hitler and his cabinet, basically.
• 35:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, many of the Nazis escaped justice, many did not get very held accountable because there wasn't enough proof, but some of them just changed their names and moved away.
• 35:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: They missed stories about people moving to Argentina in particular and other places around the world, where they're just kind of waiting for an opportunity to come back.
• 35:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then we have an era of what we call Nazi hunters.
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Time magazine other places were like obsessed with this for years, particularly in the 1950s.
• 35:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: The war's been done for a long time, and we have people who are very much exploring the world, trying to bring to justice many of the people who escape.
• 36:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are some famous accounts of Nazis and even their children who grew up with parents that they didn't know were Nazis.
• 36:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned for the trial of Baron Zemo at the end of the month, where we'll be talking about one of these particular stories in much more detail because it's based in reality, and it's crazy.
• 36:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, fun fact for X-Men fans, Jean Grey as the Phoenix, she's officially Phoenix 2, Phoenix 1 is Helmet Zemo, the child of Baron Zemo who goes on to lead the Thunderbolt.
• 36:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of history is tied up here.
• 36:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now we have a ton in the 50s of 60s.
• 36:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a ton of sci-fi.
• 36:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a ton of stuff about Nazis and time travel stories and secret Nazi plots and like Hitler's DNA being copied and injected into womb so that he can be reborn.
• 36:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you read the boys of Berlin or alternate worlds where the Nazis conquered the whole United States and now they're trying to invade our world All of these like famous books films movies There's a whole plethora of them.
• 37:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be talking about a bunch of them on the show this month, but they definitely influenced an entire generation of writers including Chris Plermott and Roy Thomas
• 37:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of our creators also served in World War II, or were the children of people in World War II.
• 37:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So 1950's, my mom was born in 1944.
• 37:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: 1950's is when my mom was a teen.
• 37:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is like, we think of like Elvis Presley, like the changing of a lot of things in America, but this is also McCarthyism.
• 37:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is also the Cold War.
• 37:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is also secret parts of the United States government, who still kind of have Aryan or Nazi affiliations.
• 37:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the desegregation era where we have a lot of white racist,
• 37:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Senators and politicians and police officers who are committing hate crimes.
• 37:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is before the civil rights era Where we are still kind of fighting for all this, but the 1950s I think we look at as kind of that after war rebirth time, but there's a lot of crazy things have to digger, right?
• 37:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Jad Gervover has his hands firmly on things
• 37:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot going on all over the country, and we're just kind of throwing this out there.
• 38:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a book from 2011, but it's called Avengers 1959.
• 38:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now to jump into the Marvel Comics time, you might be of it all.
• 38:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Fantastic Four debuted in the early 1960s, the X-Men and our other favorite characters shortly after that.
• 38:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now we have a sliding time scale at Marvel, where World War II has always happened because so many of our characters
• 38:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: are connected directly to World War II.
• 38:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: At the end of the war cap goes into the iceberg, he comes back out in 1963 or four and he was supposed to have been in there for what 15 years or whatever and then eventually that turns into he's been in there for 80 years because the end of World War II was the timestamp and then
• 38:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: everything that's happened since was like 12 years ago, perpetually.
• 38:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So as time moves forward, technology changes, their rules change as well.
• 38:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a number of characters in this book that have to thus fit accordingly.
• 38:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this one we put a timestamp on it.
• 38:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: We call this in 1959.
• 38:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this book takes place 15 years after the war, regardless.
• 38:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we had a lot of characters who have to stay old.
• 38:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nemora doesn't really age, just like name word doesn't, save her 2000, really age.
• 39:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of other characters like Nick Fury have some sort of injection or in
• 39:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Infinity Formula or the Black Widow has something that keeps her young in vibrant.
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a bunch of characters here set firmly in 1959, who we then see decades later in the Marvel Comics.
• 39:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can slide in a bunch of Marvel history here from Marvel the Lost Generation, which is John Burns attempt to fill in those gap years.
• 39:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: To the 1950s, Comedy Smasher Captain America,
• 39:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: to anything that has kind of been predated.
• 39:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the characters we see here were added in the 1940s in original Marvel books, and a lot of the characters that we have here are characters that were added later, but set retroactively in World War II because of retroactive continuity and the way that it exists.
• 39:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now I left the handbooks around 2010 because I came out in 2011.
• 39:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: My whole life kind of capsized and this is the year that I published my book The Mushroom Vergers in 2012.
• 39:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I know the handbook guys were heavily involved in this process.
• 39:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: There were a bunch of marble books here where they didn't write the book but I guarantee guarantee my buddies at the handbooks provided a list of like every playable character.
• 40:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: that was available for use in a series like this in 1959, because the character's chosen in this book are wild.
• 40:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a truly insane journey.
• 40:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of have a strange affection for these books where they try and weave in older characters into like,
• 40:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: the middle continuity, that sort of like gray area.
• 40:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: We, I was on to talk a Ravencroft, the savory Ravencroft, which has some of that, where it's like, all of these things sort of happened further in the past.
• 40:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think this team is really weird.
• 40:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's really weird to call them the Avengers.
• 40:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's probably how I came away from it.
• 40:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not really knowing how I feel about it.
• 40:43
  [SPEAKER_07]: I quite enjoyed it, and I loved this retroactive continuity, and it follows a bit from the agents of Atlas, which were the first first retroactive Avengers from 1958, a year earlier, and they even make a cameo in this.
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_07]: I like this, and I like that the all the characters from Atlas comics get a new life through this.
• 41:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: There is a point between like issues one and two where I had to let like Google who how we're chained was.
• 41:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't sure like what tone the book was trying to take, especially like some of the depictions of like Nazis, why people LGBT people, I was just like yikes.
• 41:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then like getting through it, I ended up having a fun time like I love a messy character and
• 41:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: like this entire team, you set it.
• 41:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's nameora's team, everyone else is just there.
• 41:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And chicken was born in 1950, which makes him 75.
• 41:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, and this book was what 15 years of 14 years ago, so he would have been in his early 60s at the time.
• 41:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: While journey, we're just going to kind of jump in and let it be what it is.
• 41:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But yes, it is racist, it is sexist, and it is homophobic.
• 41:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: For sure, maybe a little transform that even would get into it.
• 41:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to provide some brief summaries and we're going to stop to talk about each issue as we go.
• 41:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: The cover of issue one is pretty, it's Howard Chacon and it's a group of the heroes kind of all individually gathered with fury and the front and the more in the back.
• 42:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: In front of a globe that is covered in red skulls, it gets to white backdrops.
• 42:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Red skulls obviously have a very deep resonance with the Nazi party.
• 42:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: However, the character's red skull never appears here.
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is not awake in 1959, the sleeping gas rendered him in that Nazi bunker for all those years.
• 42:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: We opened in the autumn of New York in 1959 at the Stort Club.
• 42:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's are the characters that have gathered from that vendous run that we mentioned in New Avengers and they are just kind of finishing up a mission.
• 42:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And sharing some champagne as they kind of toast their way out.
• 42:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: We jump over to that area where the blonde phantom is a quote Honeypot.
• 42:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's a mother of two.
• 42:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's a former World War II superhero who just wears a
• 42:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: like red dress in combat.
• 42:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of her whole stick.
• 42:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't trade it.
• 42:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: She just like kicks people with heels that are red dress with a slid.
• 42:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's got a whole thing.
• 42:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you've read sensational, she hope, John Bern.
• 42:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: He has this character as like an older woman who's kind of heavy set as she hooks secretary and she ends up getting de-aged back into her like original version, but she also has her daughter running around as a different blonde phantom.
• 43:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: This character originally shows up in all select comics number 11 in World War II.
• 43:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So she has been around for a really long time.
• 43:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, she's the honeypot.
• 43:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: She is a secret agent who is having sex with general deeter school, who is living in that area and posing as like a guy there.
• 43:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk more about that in a moment.
• 43:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: She looks in his safe and finds a gold coin with her red skull on it, so we have our first hint at something going on.
• 43:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the imagery used over and over throughout the book.
• 43:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: General Dieter School, by the way, and we're going to be doing a lot of these little tiny step-asides.
• 43:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: First appeared in a story in Marvel Fanfare, number 16 in 1984.
• 43:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's a Nazi villain facing a group called the Skyworlds in that.
• 43:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Fury fights off in assassination in Tempton, New York City.
• 43:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: All of the different Avengers are offending office assassination attempts at the same time.
• 43:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the Nazis are coming out of the woodwork to eliminate these American assets.
• 43:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: We then see a guy named Jeffrey Sidenham.
• 44:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: who is in Wakanda as a representative of the United States State Department.
• 44:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we gotta take two more deep types very quickly.
• 44:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did any of you recognize this character, Sidonham?
• 44:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you have read the Chris Claremont story, where it's the really classic issue of Wolverine and like young black widow in World War II, do you know what I'm talking about?
• 44:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sidonham is in that.
• 44:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is like an American agent who's a Nazi villain.
• 44:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is an X-Men character, and this is basically the only place he's been used.
• 44:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a corrupt or organized American agents.
• 44:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And also another side tangent, if anyone wants to take it, there's a series called Captain America Black Panther Flags of Our Fathers, where it shows the American War effort in Wakanda, and it's so, so racist and so problematic, and it's written by a person of color Reggie Hadlanderites, but there is so much violence and racism toward Black people, it's a really rough read actually, but
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wakanda, by the way, we'll just throw this out right here at the beginning.
• 44:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wakanda is a thriving nation full of people of color who, if they're not even people of color, that's just who they are there, right, like we don't have to distinguish them by color, they just living there and having this like beautiful society.
• 45:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: they are not agents of their own accord in this book at all.
• 45:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: This whole country has to be rescued by the Americans and not one single black person gets to do one single heroic thing in this entire book even though what contra is the backdrop for the Americans versus Nazis fight.
• 45:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get there just a bit.
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to read this set up for this, go read flags of our fathers.
• 45:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really jarring limited series.
• 45:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay, so the Black Panther to Chaka, the father of Tachala who was active in World War II is missing and now Sidenham is in Wakanda gathering some Wakandan tech and he is also affiliated with these same Nazis.
• 45:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: We jump back to New York City.
• 45:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Craven the country is angry within the mora because she's been flirting with Saber Tooth.
• 45:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: a submarine docks with some Nazi markings on it.
• 45:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: They blow it up.
• 45:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile Dominic fortune is driving a helicopter around with a pretty lady in his lap.
• 45:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's just having a good time with this guy.
• 46:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: But when a Nazi plane attacks, he throws her out of the plane with a parachute and goes to the war.
• 46:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Saber tooth is hitchhiking.
• 46:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: For some reason, and he ends up getting picked up by a Nazi wear wolf.
• 46:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Matt and I just got to talk about Sabretooth versus a wear wolf in that Ravencraf series.
• 46:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sabretooth gets to kill a Nazi wear wolf here, and that's the opening to this book.
• 46:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: We are jumping in, and there is a lot of data thrown at you when you don't know who any of these characters are.
• 46:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, right there on page seven, I said to myself, like, follows also the season where sex workers are most aggressive, because, like, that monologue was just insane.
• 46:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's around the time where I started to have fun with it.
• 46:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Also, like, don't pick up hitchhikers, especially not when it's Sanctus, like, that, that should be, go without saying.
• 46:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I, in general, I have a hard time interacting with content around Wakanda,
• 46:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: reimagining Africa as like not impoverished and it's this whole like Western ideology taking over with a Wakandan allegory like I tried to avoid black Panther stuff for similar reasons, but like here it was just such a non issue because like there were only like one black appearance per book, so it wasn't really like that central to the plot.
• 47:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot to be said about Wakanda.
• 47:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's worthy of a much longer conversation from every angle, but yes, it's problematic portrayal here, absolutely, because it's this thriving nation who just ends up like handing their tech over because their leaders don't, and we can't really think of for ourselves, it's just it's not a positive portrayal in any way.
• 47:36
  [SPEAKER_07]: I only zeroed Dean on portrayal of the Wakandans, especially Titsaka because he gets abducted in the middle of his Black Panther ceremony, he has zero agency throughout this.
• 47:48
  [SPEAKER_07]: He only shows up after the end of the story as, oh yeah, also this was the driver of the story and he's okay, he don't worry.
• 47:55
  [SPEAKER_07]: It was a bit weird, but if you want to talk problematic, I try to do some back reading for this.
• 48:01
  [SPEAKER_07]: So I try to look at, uh,
• 48:02
  [SPEAKER_07]: taking Dominic fortune max series for his series which used to be on Marvel Limited but no longer is and and look at the cover of his Q2 maybe explains why and all of his Q2 and some others as well so this is stone down compared to that.
• 48:19
  [SPEAKER_07]: But overall, I really enjoyed this issue.
• 48:22
  [SPEAKER_07]: It starts with them trying to bump up the stakes a lot in a very silly way.
• 48:26
  [SPEAKER_07]: Like the very first page, Nick Fury is going on about officer my country.
• 48:30
  [SPEAKER_07]: I've served my country for two decades in a war, the Cold War, but I've never been plowed off the time of spent with your in your company, people.
• 48:38
  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's like they just had silly adventuring new adventures, nothing really happened.
• 48:43
  [SPEAKER_07]: That's not your proudest moment, Nick.
• 48:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: If we're talking Dominic Fortune, I'll just take this journey with you really quickly.
• 48:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a four-year limited series in the Maxline called Dominic Fortune.
• 48:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's just like a, I don't know, he's like a charming James Bond.
• 48:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Think of like Pete Wisdom, but with like a lot more like Gambit energy, almost no superpowers.
• 48:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's got a big heart on his chest.
• 49:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's like just this kind of sexist like running around lucky agent.
• 49:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Issue number one has a Dominic Fortune has a woman in a red head like over his shoulder that he's just carrying around.
• 49:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: issue number two has a black woman who is a well there are three little people who are women wearing like nightgowns all hanging on him and there's like a black woman in like very little clothing wrapped around his neck who's also a little person while like a white woman is like very entertained in the background issue three has a woman hiding behind him and issue four he has like his arm around the neck of a blonde woman as he holds a gun to her head
• 49:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you want more, like, all four of them are derogatory toward women, it's not the best read.
• 49:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Shaking is known for doing a lot of these, like, very, let's show a lot of talking heads.
• 49:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: The action is kind of supplemental to, like, we hit things from weird angles.
• 49:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do enjoy a lot of check-in stuff, but it doesn't hold up well, and these books aren't that old.
• 49:59
  [SPEAKER_07]: You have to remember Dominic Fortune is his baby, he created the character back in 1975, so as he tries to insert him in as much stuff as possible because he hasn't had much of a legacy after the early 80s.
• 50:11
  [SPEAKER_07]: No, but overall, I really like this.
• 50:14
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's huge.
• 50:14
  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, the economy of space is insane.
• 50:18
  [SPEAKER_07]: The whole issue is two to three paid scenes that are very tight action scenes and go from action scenes to action scenes to action scenes.
• 50:26
  [SPEAKER_07]: This can be made into a movie as it is, the choreography as well.
• 50:30
  [SPEAKER_07]: So much detail goes in every panel and you don't even notice like knife being pulled out of umbrellas and having umbrellas out and so on.
• 50:38
  [SPEAKER_07]: I really enjoyed it, but yeah, the problems are the problems.
• 50:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it was really interesting to hear, because I did not, I've never read new Avengers by Bendus, to hear that these characters are sort of set up in that, because that's exactly the thing you're saying, where this did not feel like the set-up to a thing, more like the continuation of anything.
• 50:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think like narratively, I really did struggle with like, where how to like get an on-ramp.
• 51:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: And for me, the character that I do love and have an easy on-ramp for the book really takes off when Saber II gets attacked in the cap.
• 51:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: I also like Craven off and Nemora getting attacked, but I was kind of struggling to figure out what was totally happening to them.
• 51:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: In the Saber II sequence, I was like, oh, it's like, it's like, Elsa, she will the SS.
• 51:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, we're doing a Nazi exploitation sort of thing.
• 51:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: Once I like have that mindset, I think the book sort of like clicked, at least to what it's going for for me.
• 51:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So all of these characters did exist canonically and marvel at the time, again, even if they're retroactive.
• 51:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll run down this list really quickly.
• 51:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got Ulysses Bloodstone, who first shows up in strange tales, 73 in 1959.
• 51:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he is not officially Bloodstone until 1975.
• 51:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is like a white colonialist who gets like an alien diamond embedded in his chest, and he spends his career hunting Nazis.
• 51:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's got a gay kid and also Bloodstone, of course, is a character that we love very much.
• 52:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Craving the Hunter is an amazing Spider-Man 15 in 1964.
• 52:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's later retroactively shown to be the child of Russian aristocrats with like connections to Russian royalty, who's been deposed.
• 52:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've gotten Amora, who shows up in Marvel Mystery Comics 82 in 1947.
• 52:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's the Atlantean Princess.
• 52:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: She is from another race.
• 52:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of Nazi wars over Atlantis.
• 52:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: She is the cousin slash maybe lover of Neymor and this must have been before she impregnated her with herself and gave birth to Nama Rita, who's the clone of her but also her daughter.
• 52:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you've read new warriors, we've got silver sable.
• 52:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is so silver sable, the character that we know, the feminist icon written by Gregory right in the 90s, was always the child of Nazi hunters.
• 52:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Her dad Ernst Sablenova is kind of this looming presence in her life.
• 52:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Gregory Wright brings this character back.
• 52:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: from the dead seemingly in the 90s.
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he first is mentioned in Amazing Spider-Man 265 in 1985.
• 52:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he is a Nazi hunter, so we've got the Ernst Sablin over version, and we barely see this guy at this series of about us.
• 53:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dominic Fortune from Marvel Preview number 275, I mentioned Blood Blunt Phantom.
• 53:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got Eric Coneg, worked in here from Sergeant Fury 27 in 1965, one of the Howling Commandos, as well as Dumb Dub Dugin, from Sergeant Fury number one.
• 53:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then later we get a character named Gorilla Man, who is a
• 53:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: American colonialists who went to an African country and killed a guy that was a gorilla, but then became cursed with the gorilla curse And now he's trapped as a gorilla.
• 53:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's a fun character, but also well he's from a book from called men's adventures 26 and 1953 so there's there's a lot of characters woven together here
• 53:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was certain that was a smart gorilla because I've never heard I've never read this character before I was like that's a gorilla that works for shield or whatever right to hear that he is a white guy is crazy makes that seem so crazy
• 53:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's another tangent we could take here.
• 53:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's an early, what if comic in the 70s?
• 53:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: The basically was like, what if the Avengers never formed?
• 54:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we go back and we tell a story of like a group of Avengers forming in the 1950s.
• 54:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's Gorilla Man, and it's like M11 the human robot, Nemora's on the team, character Venus.
• 54:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's someone else, Jimmy Wu.
• 54:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm missing someone.
• 54:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: But these characters around the same arrogant brought back as the agents of Atlas, and they get a huge push at Marvel around this time, like the heroes of the 1950s.
• 54:24
  [SPEAKER_07]: This is the ones I mentioned earlier, like the 1958 Avengers, which was just a year prior to this.
• 54:31
  [SPEAKER_07]: So I think it's a thematic sequel to that.
• 54:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's your number two.
• 54:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: You guys were all over the place.
• 54:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a game in general, Hill, New Character, who sends a guy named Powell McTig, also a new character, to put the Avengers on this newly emerging Nazi threat that he's learned about.
• 54:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we're going to quickly learn that there is an American senator named Senator Hart, who's working with Sidonham, who kind of sees Nazi interests, like let's take all the stuff left over from the war and push forward our own Aryan agenda.
• 54:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we can use that to take all the technology from an African country and Wakanda.
• 55:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the plot, but Hill is the guy that's fighting against all of that.
• 55:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Sidonham funded by Hart is the guy that's pushing for all of this.
• 55:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Fury travels to that area, which is where the Black Panther's being held, because this is where that guy's skull is living in hiding.
• 55:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: He meets up with his old pal, Eric Koneg, who is the handler for the blonde phantom.
• 55:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: We get this really, really weird page that we will post to talk about weird.
• 55:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so odd.
• 55:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: We hear the blog phantom say that there's a guy named Oberst Gruppenskur,
• 55:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: AIDS distributor.
• 55:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we see a scene if you remember she was sleeping with him in the previous issue she found his gold coin apparently he caught her spying but there's a battle sequence between the two of them and both of them are wearing women's lingerie and heels and I don't know what the fuck it's trying to say here.
• 55:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so baffled by this but he basically kicks her out the window and then we never see this reference again.
• 56:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: What the hell is happening?
• 56:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this is what I was sort of talking about with the Nazi exploitation of it all like a lot of those 70s like films like the idea is to make it like there is deviant as possible and and the really problematic part of it does become the like will maybe this character is is even more than a Nazi he's he's trans right like.
• 56:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: that that is the like the the deep dark fear.
• 56:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that is the when we're talking about maybe this book is transphobic.
• 56:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: That is maybe the joke that it's being made on now.
• 56:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Now now I do think that the scene it never comments upon it.
• 56:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's a really interesting fight and it sort of comes out of no the the book keeps doing these tricks where like like in a moment they's gonna open the door and it's just full of like blood everywhere in Vissera and it's not what
• 56:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like this weird cutscenes in the family guy where it just like jumps to some weird universe.
• 57:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it's odd.
• 57:02
  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I want to say I didn't have a negative connotate.
• 57:05
  [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't have a negative reaction to it at all.
• 57:07
  [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't because they're not making fun of him for being in Women's Landry.
• 57:10
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's just in Women's Landry, and he's looking quite attractive in them.
• 57:14
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not like, it's not like, it's shaming, it's kink there.
• 57:17
  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought it was.
• 57:18
  [SPEAKER_07]: I appreciate it, so it's good to hear the other side of it.
• 57:22
  [SPEAKER_07]: But I thought that we haven't seen this in a Marvel comic before, okay, it's a Nazi, but they're not making fun of him, they're not even commenting on it.
• 57:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that is part of Nazi exploitation, is the king of it all.
• 57:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's lots of leather and straps and it's sort of is daring you to be attracted to.
• 57:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like that is what those films are doing.
• 57:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that's necessarily what this is doing, but I agree, it's not commenting on it on purpose.
• 57:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a lot of like, I don't know, I'm picturing like Jellano like monologues stuff, right?
• 57:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like Jayad Guhover secretly crossed dresses at night, and it's like this kind of question of manhood.
• 57:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So like, here's this Nazi leader planning, like the takeover of a country, but in private quarters, he likes to put on heels in lingerie and fuck a mother of two who's an American agent.
• 58:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, there's just, I don't know, there's a weird energy to it.
• 58:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And reading how Howard chicken trips women in the rest of this series, I'm going to be a little less generous mentalist.
• 58:11
  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, I mean, I'll see, I've seen how people like Garth Ennis have treated this same topic.
• 58:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 58:16
  [SPEAKER_07]: Garth Ennis and preacher, then, you can see this is humiliating the villain by having them in women's lingerie.
• 58:22
  [SPEAKER_07]: Here it was.
• 58:23
  [SPEAKER_07]: I just thought, oh, good for him.
• 58:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 58:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is definitely like a super problematic book, but I think because it's problematic you could have a lot of fun with it and it goes back to the Nazi exploitation and black exploitation of it all.
• 58:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I'm the two woke friend, but there is a reading of this where it is like okay you could clear it up, you can make it more woke or more inclusive.
• 58:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Still doesn't change the text or the context, but like it's fun.
• 58:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that we even have black exploitation and Nazi exploitation in the same sentence is wild to me.
• 58:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very orthophics.
• 59:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the blood phantom after reporting all this says, Skull is still out there, but as far as he knows, I'm at the bottom of his throat, and he's not getting the underwear back.
• 59:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Firi goes to Wakanda.
• 59:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like let Viri and Wakanda are next door to each other.
• 59:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: They just keep going back and forth.
• 59:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Firi goes to Wakanda and meets with a woman named Kishanae, Kay Apostrophe S.H.A.N.E.I, who's the Wakanda ambassador to that Viri.
• 59:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she's pretty sure that the Black Panther has been kidnapped and he is not nice to the Black characters in this book.
• 59:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, Wakanda offers to fund the Avengers next mission.
• 59:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Fury in the blonde phantom end up fighting some Nazi zombies who are like agents called the hollow mend.
• 59:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think of them almost like the grahmen from the wheel of time series The hollow men are a literal story from 1941 and all winners comics number one where they're like Reanimated dead agents.
• 59:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So again, we're we're diving deep into the continuity here We jump back to New York City.
• 59:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sidenham is walks away after dumb dumb dugan protects general hill from a Nazi attack Where he walks into his home and finds that
• 1:00:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: A bunch of people have been killed and there's a bunch of red skulls painted all over the walls in blood.
• 1:00:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they're trying to intimidate this guy into taking the side of the Nazis throughout this series.
• 1:00:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if they won't, they're going to kill them basically.
• 1:00:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: We see Nemora, leading Sabritooth, Craven, and Fortune in an attack on a Nazi boat.
• 1:00:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: containing brain drain and barren blood with the worth throwing some more characters at you.
• 1:00:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Barren blood is John Falls where he is a British royalty guy turned into a Nazi vampire in invaders number seven in 1976.
• 1:00:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's related to like Union Jack and Spitfire.
• 1:00:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole connection here.
• 1:00:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Brain drain you may recognize from squirrel girl comics.
• 1:00:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is a Nazi agent who gets his
• 1:00:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: brain reprogrammed by aliens and squirrel girl later like reprogrammed him into being a hero.
• 1:00:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: He first shows up in invaders number two in 1975 and they're just buddies like living on a boat together.
• 1:00:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: In the fight we seek sabertooth identifying him in self.
• 1:00:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: himself in French as a wandering Canadian and Ranger and gets to call Nemora a Mongril slut.
• 1:01:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: The word slut on the page is so shocking right after the word Mongril.
• 1:01:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: The text also tells us that Creed loves killing and they end up fighting a big flock of robot bats because there's a ton just thrown at you like willy nilly in this series.
• 1:01:17
  [SPEAKER_07]: I know there's problems, but I just...
• 1:01:20
  [SPEAKER_07]: I love reading this.
• 1:01:21
  [SPEAKER_07]: The action is just phenomenal.
• 1:01:24
  [SPEAKER_07]: Like the way taking goes overboard on his layouts.
• 1:01:28
  [SPEAKER_07]: Then this is if you encounter at least five or six pages where he uses this very neat trick.
• 1:01:34
  [SPEAKER_07]: where someone is thrown off the panel, so they cross the panel borders.
• 1:01:39
  [SPEAKER_07]: And there's even a few pages where Nick Fury is shooting at people and they're crossing over the other panels and being thrown towards the reader.
• 1:01:46
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just so dynamic.
• 1:01:48
  [SPEAKER_07]: I love his capacity for them all.
• 1:01:51
  [SPEAKER_07]: I love seeing brain drain, you mentioned the squirrel y'all redemption arc.
• 1:01:55
  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's wild our days that because he's Ryan North's favorite,
• 1:02:00
  [SPEAKER_07]: the class character.
• 1:02:01
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's all over the current big crossover.
• 1:02:04
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's in the character title.
• 1:02:06
  [SPEAKER_07]: Every is here.
• 1:02:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's been in one world under doom, which is fun.
• 1:02:11
  [SPEAKER_07]: Every single is here.
• 1:02:12
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's there just in the background and he's on the title page.
• 1:02:15
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's selling the crap out of him.
• 1:02:17
  [SPEAKER_07]: And I also loved, I've not had a few lines because Blond Phantom gets the best lines this episode along with Namora and let someone else do Namora but the line he caught me eavesdropping and I went from Libyan to liability in one fells group, so to say.
• 1:02:32
  [SPEAKER_07]: Or the lessons he has with fury because at this point, this is a married woman with two children but they are flirting but she's acknowledging the flirting and saying, ah, in another world, it's very interesting how these are all set up.
• 1:02:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: this was the issue that I probably struggled with the most because I was still trying to think I like Cameron said I'm just trying to figure out what the tone of the book is.
• 1:02:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: A character this personally that I don't ever vibe with is Nick Fury senior and so he's the he's like the whole first half of this book.
• 1:03:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: The second that our freaks, Sabre Truth and Nemora and Craven are fighting their freaks, brain drain and barren blood.
• 1:03:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was like oh okay okay this is fun.
• 1:03:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: I like this.
• 1:03:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's Avengers vs Nazis, just in a very long way.
• 1:03:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I had a lot of fun with this issue.
• 1:03:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is when I really just started to lock in.
• 1:03:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Blonde Phantom had a lot of great moments, like fucking a Nazi.
• 1:03:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's implied that you fucked an Nazi and I'm like, you know what girl, like, happens.
• 1:03:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: also, once again, the reemerging Nazi problem, a lot of that going around lately, especially in like DC, New York, like, that was a point where I'm like, oh, this is accidentally relevant.
• 1:03:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Issue number three, we have brain drain and barren blood teleporting the safety.
• 1:03:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Back in Washington, DC, General Hill is suspecting that Sidenham might be corrupt now.
• 1:03:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: and Sidenham reveals that he made a deal with Dormamu after World War II.
• 1:03:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'm going to jump ahead at the end of this series on the very final page.
• 1:04:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: We see Sidenham still alive in 1959.
• 1:04:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: like drawing a pentagram and like he's like a Nazi agent allied with dormant, but we have never seen this, this resolved.
• 1:04:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this man's been just hanging out for decades.
• 1:04:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what happened to him.
• 1:04:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's an X-Men story waiting for someone to use this old Chris Clairebot character from uncanny X-Men 268, if anyone wants it.
• 1:04:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: We jump to that, Vyria, we're fury in the blonde phantom steel plane, and then they go back to Wakanda, which again is not next door.
• 1:04:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a very far distance, and they meet Minister Katela, who is a bald woman with an eye patch Wakandan agent,
• 1:04:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: They get some intel from Howard Stark, who shows up here for just a minute.
• 1:04:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we eat the Uber imagine.
• 1:04:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Miss America is an incredible character from World War II.
• 1:04:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Madeline Joyce, she later ends up marrying the wizard and in the early Avengers comics, if you recall, it's believed for a time that they are the parents of Pietro and Wanda, the quicksover in the Scarlet Witch, so like, it's Pietro and Wanda Frank.
• 1:05:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: for a period of time.
• 1:05:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Madeline Joyce died in childbirth on Mount Wondergore.
• 1:05:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But in the 1940s, she was like Marvel's flagship female character before Patsy Walker and any others.
• 1:05:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: She had her own book, Miss America Comics.
• 1:05:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's kind of iconic.
• 1:05:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was a big celebration of these characters on the 70th anniversary of them.
• 1:05:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So right around the same time, there was a bunch of 70th anniversary specials that were released.
• 1:05:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of them was Miss America Comics.
• 1:05:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Written by a female creator,
• 1:05:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really celebrating that on Joyce.
• 1:05:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very rosy, they're riveter.
• 1:05:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of like, women in the war effort energy.
• 1:05:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they end up fighting a group called the Uber Madshan.
• 1:05:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's where these characters come from, from that same issue.
• 1:05:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So these are previously established characters.
• 1:05:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: These are a bunch of warrior women who barely have anything to do here.
• 1:05:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they've got crazy names.
• 1:05:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've got access, Annie.
• 1:05:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, these characters are, they're, they're warrior women derivatives for sure.
• 1:05:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: Madam Mouser was the name that I liked the most.
• 1:05:58
  [SPEAKER_07]: I loved Axis Annie that's just stayed out of a musical and I mean can we read the intro here out for them?
• 1:06:05
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, that's just insane, so I've written it down.
• 1:06:09
  [SPEAKER_07]: They've spent the past 14 years working on their dance, their abs, and their attitudes in Sao Paulo, ready to respond to the summons to reunite their unholy war.
• 1:06:18
  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, Tant rested, ready and fully equipped with Brazilians, the Uber medskin are back in the name of international havoc.
• 1:06:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the dive is going for it.
• 1:06:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's not.
• 1:06:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not.
• 1:06:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It made me smile.
• 1:06:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we have these like soldiers who just have been like hanging out at the pool for the last 14 years.
• 1:06:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they made sure to get their pussy's wax before they jump back into combat.
• 1:06:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's truly a crazy dialogue.
• 1:06:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's truly crazy.
• 1:06:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we've got Madame Mouser, Penny, Panzer, and Axis Annie.
• 1:06:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Floorline Fatale is the fourth member of this team, but yeah, truly, truly crazy.
• 1:06:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: We also get a quote about Saber Tooth, Saber Tooth, NA, Victor Creed, is learned to almost perversely love the anticipation of healing from wounds that would kill any normal man.
• 1:07:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's in his full costume that we recognize, and there's like a war with the Uber mansion, and they all get tied up at the end.
• 1:07:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: for we open on the shores of Madre Poor now, so we've got another marble backdrop.
• 1:07:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nemora tells us, Victor and I have an understanding.
• 1:07:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I listened to his sociopathic nonsense, and he doesn't kill indiscriminately.
• 1:07:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, not indiscriminately, he replies.
• 1:07:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a little bit of a love triangle established between she, Craven the Hunter and Sabre Tooth, which both of those are wild choices for this woman who's in Atlanta in Princess, whatever.
• 1:07:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sabre Sheath wants to kill the captive Nazi women,
• 1:07:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: When you need the dirty work done, it's all hey great to see a vicarole pal, but the minute I want to just kill somebody, it's ooh, ooh, bad, saber tooth, but theory questions the women gets the intel he needs and then gives Victor permission to kill them all while they're tied up, which we don't see that violence against other characters here.
• 1:07:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, it's off panel, but I don't, I don't like it.
• 1:07:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like let's let him kill the the captive women who can't fight back.
• 1:08:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: I do think that the book is saying something with the like we have the worst guys on the Avengers to go help us fight these Nazis because the truth is in the 50s America works with the Nazis to help fight or like X Nazis to fight these Soviets, right?
• 1:08:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I do think that there is something that is being said about like Nick Fury's willingness to be complicit in
• 1:08:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we're supposed to like that moment.
• 1:08:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: I do also think Saber Truth is not right at the end, but he's right when he says like, you always want me when I do that helpful things for you.
• 1:08:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: He is like this helpful fool for the United States, like, you know, war effort.
• 1:08:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm smiling at this read also.
• 1:08:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: The land about the Brazilians did make me smile, but chicken comics are historically women are there to be fucked or killed, is often the message delivered.
• 1:08:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just kind of not okay.
• 1:08:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: It, it, it, it a lot of ways.
• 1:08:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: We move on to the next page, and we see another character that's previously established super, super obscure named Heinrich von Vittelhelm Innsbrook.
• 1:09:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: He shows up in Sergeant Fury 119 in 1974, and he appears here as a disabled character.
• 1:09:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is a, he's quadruper, a paraplegic at the very least.
• 1:09:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he has created like a bunch of like cyborg dogs to fight
• 1:09:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: for him.
• 1:09:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: We move over to the USA.
• 1:09:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Gorilla Man shows up because Jimmy Wu sent him over to save General Hill from another assassination attempt from one of the zombie Nazis.
• 1:09:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the group soon discovers that there are elements in the USA, reviving old Nazi threats to gain power.
• 1:09:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: We then move back to General Skull, who is no longer in lingerie.
• 1:09:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's now fighting alongside one character who's new and one character who's previously established.
• 1:09:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: The new character here is Count von Blitzkrieg.
• 1:09:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a bunch of German characters named Blitzkrieg, or Blitzkrieg, or he's got lighting powers.
• 1:09:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we've got another guy here named a Fritzkron, who first showed up in Captain America comics number 15 in 1942, and he creates like little armies of robots to fight.
• 1:09:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So all these characters are joining together.
• 1:10:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they are attacking Wakanda.
• 1:10:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the characters uses the phrase mud people to describe.
• 1:10:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: describe the African people in Wakanda, and they're there just to like kill a bunch of people and take over.
• 1:10:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's awful, but they find the Avengers their way.
• 1:10:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So knowing that the sentient was actually like a monkey person changes things.
• 1:10:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like just as a black person reading that I'm like, let me not look too far into it I don't know how we're chickens in ten and then like having that like context.
• 1:10:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like So can hail can hail in the original story from young men comics is a white guy who goes to the Congo
• 1:10:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he's pursuing the myth of immortality, because there's like a gorilla man who's immortal.
• 1:10:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the curse that exists is if you kill the gorilla man, you get the curse of the gorilla man.
• 1:10:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you live forever until someone else kills you.
• 1:10:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a white guy in Africa who gets the gorilla man cursed from the Congo.
• 1:10:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's barely part of the series, but we could certainly do a gorilla man episode sometimes.
• 1:11:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, please have me on for that.
• 1:11:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm instantly obsessed with his character.
• 1:11:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: My favorite gorilla man is another old character who's part of the headman.
• 1:11:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's a white scientist who grafts his head onto a gorilla body because he figures it will be more efficient.
• 1:11:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: His name's Arthur Negan and gorilla man, I love him.
• 1:11:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's this like overall trove of just sentient guerrillas in media, like especially around the, I mean 2011, but like this time period we're talking about the 50s to the like 60s and 70s.
• 1:11:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like really pervasive.
• 1:11:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: go see my episodes on the given and the super apes for more on these commentaries especially the Marvel 8 verse.
• 1:11:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so this is a issue where there's no black people at all like pictured on page.
• 1:11:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I did the math for out of five issues that's 80% like of the 80% of the comic just has a problematic.
• 1:11:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: depiction of black people, and then this issue, nothing.
• 1:11:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So fun, but like I'm not hating.
• 1:11:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just one of those things where like you start counting the people of color on page and seeing the depictions and it just adds up.
• 1:12:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I will say, I was shocked at what happens to Wakanda.
• 1:12:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm used to more modern comics.
• 1:12:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: They have a little bit more reverence for what Wakanda at least represents within the Marvel universe to see it just like get like just like attacked.
• 1:12:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: in this like like a 9-11 essentially like happens in Wakanda in the 50s that was very surprising to me especially I really I think the way to Chaka is treated in the next comic the way he's depicted is really like he's so pathetic and like you know he's the black Panther and he's like shivering and cold and a blanket as he gets put into this like taxi so I was really surprised at the way that it was treated I will say from a craft standpoint it has that thing that Manolis was talking about
• 1:12:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, I'm going to bring up San Francisco this fight where he's in the library.
• 1:12:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a great four panels of he's coming for this this Nazi he's he's jumping he's attacking and he's being and then we just see him outside the window flying away a very a very funny sequence and a really good like he's a craft.
• 1:13:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: have a list of characters that deserve patreon's that fall into like marbles weirdest weirdest areas.
• 1:13:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: So on this list are characters like four bushman.
• 1:13:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: You guys know what I'm talking about?
• 1:13:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like these are like the really I did an obnoxious of the clown episode once uh there's some like there's some really obscures.
• 1:13:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's an inside joke character marvel in the early 90s called Fightman.
• 1:13:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: and they turned it into a series in 1993, and Fightman has only, I think, three appearances or something, and he fights a group called the All Hate Squad, and it's just kind of a weird inside joke.
• 1:13:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're all stupid characters, but in 2003, when Evan Dorken is writing Agent X, which is the Deadpool derivative title,
• 1:13:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: They bring white man and his villains the all-hate squad into Marvel canon in an issue called it it's agent x number 11.
• 1:13:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can look this up.
• 1:13:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: The all-hate squad here has a bunch of characters who are just weird weird weird and a lot of brand new ones that are created here.
• 1:13:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's characters like Mr. Density, Catman, Dingo, Krimasaurus Rex, Ilbilly, the Shiv, Roman Candle, the Polka Doctor, the plugin, maniac, the one man, atrocity, the massive globula, and on this team, killed in the same issue as a guy named Dr. Ragoteg.
• 1:14:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's a Nazi monkey, like he's in a rangatang who like it references that he goes hunting with doctor like Herman Goring and then he's just he's he's part of a crowd and issue five weird weird weird Matt wait the Nazis one is not a white guy.
• 1:14:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's an actual a rangatang.
• 1:14:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.
• 1:14:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like an irrelevant.
• 1:14:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that we have the details we need for doctor rangatang to work.
• 1:14:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's so crazy that Gorilla Man is a white guy who killed, presumably a black man in Africa to become a Gorilla, but not see one, it's just a Gorilla that they convinced about the ideals of Nazis.
• 1:14:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So issue five, there's a Nazi army together.
• 1:14:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's Dr. Rangiteng is one.
• 1:14:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a new character named Wunder Knight here who is like a Nazi Knight, like a suit of armor or something.
• 1:15:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It implies here that he does not like women.
• 1:15:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the few things that we seek of for this character.
• 1:15:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: We meet Countess Kyra, who is the leopard woman.
• 1:15:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: She is kind of a cat woman early derivative.
• 1:15:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like she's from Captain America, comics 36 and 1944.
• 1:15:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: We also have again in Geist.
• 1:15:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did any of you recognize Geist?
• 1:15:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Geist is from Claremont's Well Early Wolverine.
• 1:15:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wolverine number 17 launches a long running arc in early Wolverine comics in Madreport.
• 1:15:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Where Geist is the Nazi supervillain in that book.
• 1:15:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's another X-Men connection here.
• 1:15:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the few time teas that were shown up.
• 1:15:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: We also get a character named Spider Queen, who is, there's a wild history for this character too.
• 1:15:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: She first shows up in a non-marvel book called Eagle from 1941 that Roy Thomas brings her into the Invaders Rebap in 1993.
• 1:15:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really taking you all over the place with this, but I want to tell you how much like this book brings in all of these crazy moral elements that require like a deep knowledge of each one of them being where the,
• 1:16:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the deep cover US group is called icon.
• 1:16:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've recruited all these Nazis to go attack Wakanda.
• 1:16:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's basically what you need.
• 1:16:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is what we've been setting up for here.
• 1:16:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do we have any favorite moments in the big Avengers versus Nazi agent icon battle?
• 1:16:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Matt, do you want to talk about Sabre Tooth's fight with leopard woman?
• 1:16:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, the thing about being a jobber in the comics is that you have to get a win sometimes, and Sabre II gets his ass kicked the whole comic, so he does have to get his win back, and he grabs her by the leg and smashes her head against a wall behind him.
• 1:16:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a pretty short fight, it's kind of, I mean, I have, it's like, you're right, there's a ton of violence against women, but I do have to be like, she's a Nazi, it's okay.
• 1:16:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: And she's trying to kill him, so it's okay for him to kill her.
• 1:16:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Victor Crees been around for an awfully long time.
• 1:16:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: One must think that sort of life experience would inform an approach that carried caution under Gile.
• 1:16:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately in Victor's case, one comes up wrong.
• 1:16:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hubertis is Saber Tooth's operating mode.
• 1:16:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Cameron, do you want to talk about a Craven the Hunter versus Dr. Rangitang?
• 1:16:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Your new favorite character at Marvel Comics?
• 1:17:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm just like, okay, with Craven Hunter, he's all over the place.
• 1:17:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's kind of a mess.
• 1:17:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But knowing that Dr. Rangitaine's actually like meant to be a monkey, changes the dynamic a lot.
• 1:17:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like that said, I do think that these fight scenes are really well done, especially some of the animation around like Craven's like electricity like Manola's had a good point earlier like this is
• 1:17:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: got to like get over to like get into it.
• 1:17:33
  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm just living through the issue.
• 1:17:35
  [SPEAKER_07]: I'll say this last issue did nothing for me, action wise.
• 1:17:39
  [SPEAKER_07]: I come to now, it's all over within four and a half pages.
• 1:17:43
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's all just pants, pants, pants, and then practically just so so ties up the villain and we go to the denue amount.
• 1:17:50
  [SPEAKER_07]: I wasn't as impressed with this one.
• 1:17:52
  [SPEAKER_07]: I think he did a much better job in the first three issues of photographing action than what we get.
• 1:17:57
  [SPEAKER_07]: here suddenly.
• 1:17:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: The very quick story about Geist, he's a German guy who was like an advisor to Adolf Hitler, but like an ally of Baron Strucker.
• 1:18:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Claire, I'm not used to him in the X-Men true friend series where like Amalfa Rook and Lady Windermier are running around.
• 1:18:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he visited the concentration camp where Magneto was held.
• 1:18:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is all in the Wolverine title.
• 1:18:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: He ends up like employing rough house and bloodstream.
• 1:18:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, rough house and stream and like a crazy story.
• 1:18:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're like La Bandara and sister salvation.
• 1:18:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like the big spore virus who running around.
• 1:18:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's an old Wolverine story if you want to go back and look.
• 1:18:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: it's kind of a crazy journey.
• 1:18:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're just kind of skipping past a lot of this, but basically at the end of all of this, the Nazis are defeated.
• 1:18:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: They Wakanda is saved by all of the white people.
• 1:18:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's not a single black character that gets to even fight.
• 1:18:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: We get one single like panel of Tachaka being released to go back to become the black Panther, even though he's already the black Panther.
• 1:18:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: whatever.
• 1:18:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then Nick Fury takes down Sidonham, who's the big crook guy behind it all.
• 1:18:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Sidonham, in reference to the Nazis, basically at the end, says, you can't kill a dream whose time has come.
• 1:19:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Fury says, maybe not, but I sure plan to cripple the living hell out of it.
• 1:19:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Say, we're
• 1:19:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: with Craven and the others get Pardons for their service for the government.
• 1:19:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Blunt Phantom walks off with Dominic Fortune and Victor Creed and there's a weird panel with like a dot dot dot where fortune's like now we can go have a three some dot dot dot dot in the next panel for bridge like they're gonna go play cards but these three wedding foxes really what happened and that's kind of the end of the series.
• 1:19:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to hear some of your resonant thoughts on this.
• 1:19:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the, it's the Nazi story that we're telling in pop culture, right?
• 1:19:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'd love to specifically hear your thoughts on Saber Tooth's presence here.
• 1:19:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Craven the hunters and other really wild choice for all of this.
• 1:19:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting that the, there's a very small moment of the end where it's like, and because we did this, we're going to have pardon, Jeffrey said, we're going to pardon him.
• 1:19:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's, he's not going to get in trouble because we're
• 1:19:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: right that like, yes, we beat the Nazis, but we also are going to fuck over Wakanda, right?
• 1:19:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is a like a thing that sort of happens at the end, making our teams sort of like complicit in some of that?
• 1:20:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think Saber Tooth is so important to this book's tone because two things.
• 1:20:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: You want to have a character who can get their ass kicked and you don't want to put Wolverine in this book because he will pull focus right if you put Wolverine in this book It's about Wolverine people say for two from this, but he's a better day player truly he he's he's got a tone there's like horrible things He's doing to it, but it does bring the like sort of like um if you lean into it You see the like sort of like exploitation like style And it fits in the continuity right like he's working with team through all this time He's a government a lot of places just like Logan was and then his mind gets wiped a bunch
• 1:20:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, when I read this, did not understand that this was continuity.
• 1:20:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: I thought this was like, wait, Wilson's war, which is that story where Deadpool tells.
• 1:20:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, but no, this is in continuity.
• 1:20:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have the checklist from Brevort back when we were on the handbooks.
• 1:20:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is a continuity book.
• 1:20:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: It fits.
• 1:20:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You weren't into the character profiles.
• 1:20:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's crazy.
• 1:20:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Saber 2 is on the Avengers before we'll frame.
• 1:21:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I forgot to mention, we just have to comment very briefly on the spider queen.
• 1:21:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's only one image of her basically, but her costume's so amazing.
• 1:21:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's this low cut like deep v with like her boobs out.
• 1:21:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Full sleeves, uh, and then like this like little comfy like spider web skirt that's like just showing off whatever is there.
• 1:21:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like she's like, it's a great image of her actually like it.
• 1:21:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Her costume is fantastic.
• 1:21:21
  [SPEAKER_07]: She has the spider roman colors as well.
• 1:21:23
  [SPEAKER_07]: I haven't noticed she has the exact spider roman colors.
• 1:21:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: shit posty thought I don't know how many of you have read the mystique miniseries from last year, but any time machine makes a mixed theory senior.
• 1:21:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's mystique in disguise now.
• 1:21:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this entire issue, I'm like, when did she switch?
• 1:21:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mystique could have been on the Avengers 1959.
• 1:21:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's a character.
• 1:21:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: She could be Nick Yuri Jr's dad.
• 1:21:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: She could be Dr. Rangetang.
• 1:21:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: They really just need to do a mystique book where you're just like playing wears a walldow.
• 1:21:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: The entire time.
• 1:21:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: As for Sabertooth, he had a lot of humanizing moments here.
• 1:22:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I had to, there were moments where I was like, oh, Sabertooth did something funny, or did something cool.
• 1:22:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wait.
• 1:22:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, he's a horrible person.
• 1:22:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's a lot of balancing that with these characters, which I think it, like you guys mentioned earlier, it's that adds to the text and like it's a horrible team against a horrible team.
• 1:22:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anyone here supposed to be like morally great except nameora.
• 1:22:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I think she's the only solid person there.
• 1:22:24
  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's fun, as you mentioned, more because even with Namora, they take a bit at one poem point.
• 1:22:30
  [SPEAKER_07]: They're doing bios of the characters, I think, it's you, three.
• 1:22:32
  [SPEAKER_07]: Let me see.
• 1:22:33
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
• 1:22:33
  [SPEAKER_07]: And the bioforeheries, Namora mirrors these fascists belief in their superiority.
• 1:22:39
  [SPEAKER_07]: Koma, tempered by the democratic impulse that is here, mother's legacy, even with Namora, he's really going for it.
• 1:22:45
  [SPEAKER_07]: Maria?
• 1:22:45
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
• 1:22:46
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's royalty.
• 1:22:47
  [SPEAKER_07]: He says he starts with these Nazis.
• 1:22:49
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's very weird.
• 1:22:50
  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, on the saber the front, he gets pretty much the spiked treatment from later seasons in Buffy.
• 1:22:56
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's the butt of the job.
• 1:22:58
  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know how it feels.
• 1:23:00
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's in with Marvel's other publication, but point if they were doing a big boost for saber to sense a hero.
• 1:23:05
  [SPEAKER_07]: Because, yeah, they do this in the adventure.
• 1:23:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't like their reds on slot access, like Saber II's been turned into a hero by the inverted spell.
• 1:23:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're red skull using Charles Xavier's braid.
• 1:23:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
• 1:23:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, Heroic Victor Creed is on the table in the modern era here.
• 1:23:25
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, starting with the new Avengers prelude to this, that started with him getting shot in the face, which was running gag and this series starts with that as well.
• 1:23:34
  [SPEAKER_07]: The first time you see him here, it's shot in the head and that happens a lot.
• 1:23:37
  [SPEAKER_07]: He is pretty much the butt of the joke.
• 1:23:39
  [SPEAKER_07]: We know his dangerous, but the real monster here in mid-turn is Nick Fury.
• 1:23:45
  [SPEAKER_07]: He is a blatant besocenist.
• 1:23:47
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's the one who says, yeah, Victor, kill this hostage now.
• 1:23:51
  [SPEAKER_07]: We don't need here anymore.
• 1:23:52
  [SPEAKER_07]: Victor here is a weapon, a Nick Fury is the one pointing him at the targets.
• 1:23:58
  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, the most shocking part of this for Nick Fury was when he meets Kitella, who is the only female black character in this, the code he has for her.
• 1:24:06
  [SPEAKER_07]: He says, I expect better than a toned lasting from one night, both headed, loud mouth with.
• 1:24:12
  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, he's not, this is not his best outing.
• 1:24:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the only thing that stands in the way of your theory that this is mystique is that mystique would never talk to a woman that way.
• 1:24:30
  [SPEAKER_07]: My key takeaway from this is the disks itself.
• 1:24:33
  [SPEAKER_07]: We haven't talked a lot about them.
• 1:24:34
  [SPEAKER_07]: This disks with the scalpel and the 8th and the inverted infinity.
• 1:24:39
  [SPEAKER_07]: On their forehead, what the UberMet can explain them to be is that they've always seen them, and they come from the US government by way of sighting them.
• 1:24:48
  [SPEAKER_07]: The UberMet can describe them as a get-out of jail-free card, like one of your army board games.
• 1:24:54
  [SPEAKER_07]: So this is the American government is sending this to Nazi supervillains and saying, come work with us and all will be forgiven.
• 1:25:02
  [SPEAKER_07]: That's the most political big thing that this series does and it doesn't directly comment on it.
• 1:25:07
  [SPEAKER_07]: Other than that, it lets the reader still in the awkwardness of it and the uneasy feeling that comes from this which I love.
• 1:25:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, what I would love for listeners to take from all of this, I'm sure all of you feel like you just got spun around in a dryer cycle a few times.
• 1:25:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is not your normal X-met episode, right?
• 1:25:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But number one, I'd really love for you to hear.
• 1:25:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: The threat of Nazism has always been there.
• 1:25:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: The war ended, and this is a 2011 book about 19 late 1950s.
• 1:25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: The formation of so much of what exists in our country happened in the 1950s, in like the advent of our new superhero era started in the early 1960s.
• 1:25:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: steeped in this, like the pop culture influences on almost every character is present from Iron Man to Captain America, to even Thor, who represents the Norse gods that the Aryan Nazis were obsessed with.
• 1:25:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: The X-Men and the evolution of humanity is such a huge part of this conversation.
• 1:26:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if all you needed was a Victor Creed, that one time he joined the Avengers in the 50s, then this month is your month on my show.
• 1:26:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to hear any final thoughts from my guests today.
• 1:26:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always appreciative of friends who will come and nerd out with me and have weird academic discussions about some title you've never heard of before.
• 1:26:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I threw you into the deep end with this one.
• 1:26:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I always appreciate your willingness to take these journeys.
• 1:26:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: You guys could find me at ham.hebron on Instagram.
• 1:26:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not super active posting these days, but I'll ship post on like my Instagram stories.
• 1:26:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was really excited to have this conversation.
• 1:26:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I enjoy a problematic text when I can sit down with people who can like acknowledge the things about it that are hard, but like kind of revel in what totally works about it because like art is more than just like what it means.
• 1:26:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's the craft and all of that.
• 1:26:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: I really enjoyed this conversation.
• 1:26:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely wouldn't have liked it as much if I just write it on my own.
• 1:26:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can find me uh, escape the much of us on Instagram or on BlueSky.
• 1:26:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we have Darrell and Philip from the Expector podcast on to talk the Great Lakes Avengers.
• 1:27:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, this Friday.
• 1:27:03
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, this, I You quite enjoyed it more than expected to and I loved having this discussion with all of you.
• 1:27:10
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's nice to know that with fellow geeks.
• 1:27:12
  [SPEAKER_07]: You can find me at the comic's Greek on Blue Sky and sometimes Twitter.
• 1:27:18
  [SPEAKER_07]: I mostly do Greek stuff comics wise now, but if people want to see my English language comic's work, you can dive into the back of your bins for a young blood 75-77 which I wrote almost ten years ago now, hoping to get some new work in the future.
• 1:27:33
  [SPEAKER_07]: But yeah, thank you.
• 1:27:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And listeners, I know you cannot hear this in our voices, but I just want to emphasize and I try to create this all the time on the show everyone's always welcome.
• 1:27:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a very queer group, but we come from different countries, different ethnic origins.
• 1:27:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's just four queer nerds, analyzing one text and kind of just letting it be what it is.
• 1:27:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm always so deeply grateful for these like wonderful academic safe spaces.
• 1:27:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you all for sharing your stories and your opinions.
• 1:27:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now stay tuned for some thoughts on fascism as a special guest and I talked about a red skull story and its modern applications.
• 1:28:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: In the early years of World War II, Argentina walked a delicate line between neutrality and covert support for access powers.
• 1:28:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: While officially neutral Argentina was home to one of the largest German immigrant populations outside Europe, and the Nazi Party maintained a strong presence there.
• 1:28:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: These influence extended into espionage, propaganda, and intelligence operations throughout South America coordinated through something called Operation Boulevard.
• 1:28:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Germany's extensive spy network in the region.
• 1:28:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: By 1940, the FBI's Special Intelligence Service or SIS was tracking German agents who were using Argentina as a staging ground to send shipping intelligence, sabotage plans, and propaganda to Europe.
• 1:28:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Argentina became a key battleground in a secret intelligence war between the Allies and the Axis, even before the country formally broke ties with Germany in 1944.
• 1:28:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the most dramatic episodes of Nazi intrigues in South America in this era was the Helmuth incident.
• 1:28:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: In 1942, a man named Heinrich Helmuth, the German Chargedy Affairs in Buenos Aires, was at the center of a spice candle when Allied intelligence discovered that Nazi agents were transmitting critical information about Allied shipping routes and South American naval movements directly from Argentina to Berlin.
• 1:29:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: These transmissions allowed German U-boats to sync allied vessels with deadly precision.
• 1:29:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: When the network was exposed, the Argentine government already under intense international pressure was forced to take action.
• 1:29:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Helmuth was expelled from the country, along with several other diplomats and agents in a rare public review of Nazi activity.
• 1:29:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: The incident marked a turning point, showing both how deeply entrenched Nazi operations had been and how fragile Argentine's stance of neutrality truly was.
• 1:29:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: After the war, Argentina's relationship with Naziism took a darker turn.
• 1:29:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Under President Juan Petrón, Argentina became one of the world's most infamous safe havens for fleeing Nazi war criminals.
• 1:29:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Using covert escape routes known as ratlines, figures like Adolf Eikman and Joseph Mangala were smuggled out of Europe and given new identities in Argentina.
• 1:30:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: This legacy remains highly sensitive.
• 1:30:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: In recent years, Argentine authorities have uncovered caches of Nazi documents and propaganda, including a 2025 discovery of 80 boxes hidden in the Supreme Court's basement, which are now being analyzed by the Buenos Aires Holocaust Museum.
• 1:30:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: In a striking act of transparency, President Javier MLA recently declassified over 1,800 files detailing Argentine as a role in harboring Nazis, and unprecedented movement to confront decades of secrecy.
• 1:30:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Today, however, and I hope I get this accurately reflected from my limited perspective, Argentina faces echoes of its past as far right populism is resurfacing.
• 1:30:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: President Millet often compared to Donald Trump has embraced nationalistic rhetoric, attacks on the political cast, and policies that target immigrants and restrict citizenship.
• 1:30:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: His movement uses symbols and slogans reminiscent of Trumpism, including make Argentina great again, paraphernalia, while building ties with global far-right figures such as Hungary's Victor Ornban and Brazil's Hyar Bolsonaro.
• 1:30:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Critics warned that amid economic crisis and public frustration, these tactics risk normalizing authoritarian tendencies and undermining democratic institutions.
• 1:31:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: just as the health-muth incident exposed how external fascist forces once infiltrated Argentina.
• 1:31:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Today's political climate raises urgent questions about how internal populist movements can revive dangerous ideologies and modern forms.
• 1:31:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, much less seriously, we're going to jump to the world of incredible Hulk issues 402 and moving forward.
• 1:31:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: The red skulls only in a few of these issues, but under orders from the red skulls, who's dressed in a full white suit while smoking a slim cigarette,
• 1:31:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey Marco, the juggernaut is here at Battling Hulk and the Amazon, and he wins the fight.
• 1:31:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the Red Skull has the Hulk strong up, and he employs mentalo, who is both a mutant and Jewish, by the way, which makes this very problematic on its own.
• 1:31:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he amplifies mentalo's power to brainwash the Hulk into fighting for him.
• 1:31:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mentalo is screaming in pain as he assaults the Hulk with images of being attacked by supervillains, and then he weaponizes the Hulk's own childhood trauma against him, taking full root in his brain.
• 1:31:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: When Mentalo doubts his orders, the Red Skull makes him do it anyway, and makes him reply yes, sir.
• 1:32:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when the Hulk is mentally subdued, the Hulk also says yes, sirs.
• 1:32:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So soon the Avengers are here and these are the messy Avengers.
• 1:32:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love this era.
• 1:32:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Hercules, Crystal, Vision, Black Knight, Cersei.
• 1:32:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's one image of Crystal who's so innocent and wholesome on the ship and she looks over in Cersei's got her hand like moving up Black Knight's thigh and Crystal's like, there's so much drama.
• 1:32:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love it very much.
• 1:32:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, they're sent to apprehend the Hulk and Juggernaut in the middle of all this.
• 1:32:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: While this is happening, the Red Skull says, Markle, can you hear me?
• 1:32:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of busy here, Skull, can it wait?
• 1:32:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, it cannot.
• 1:32:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Offer them the opportunity to surrender and leave peaceably.
• 1:32:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: You gotta be hosed and me, says the juggernaut.
• 1:32:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: The red score does not hose.
• 1:32:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, they are trespasses here.
• 1:32:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I purchased this land legally, stirring up confusion in their own minds can only benefit and impede them in battle.
• 1:32:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: But of course, the Avengers don't go peacefully, leaving the juggernaut and hope to fight them.
• 1:32:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, the score is receiving a special delivery.
• 1:32:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sesame Street, this is Big Bird.
• 1:32:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I see our ETA at 22 minutes, over.
• 1:32:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are your passengers comfortable, Big Bird?
• 1:33:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Hulk soon breaks free into feats, juggernaut, and overloads mentalo, and the plane containing the skulls allies crashes, but apparently they survived.
• 1:33:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Later, the Red Skull does a big presentation on this ridiculously high platform, for a group of eight men at a table that's so far below him.
• 1:33:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like 40 feet underneath his race todays, and the backdrop is an image of a globe turned into a red skull, with nose and eye sockets and a parrot antlers underneath it.
• 1:33:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a new movement.
• 1:33:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Two more black skulls on red on each side.
• 1:33:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Silver main seems to be in the crowd very specifically.
• 1:33:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a very short lived group called The New World Order, who shows up here and then a little bit later in the Hulk, but it's kind of the red skull launching one more thing.
• 1:33:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: He says, I thank you all for coming.
• 1:33:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I regret the inconvenience, but even now has turned to our advantage, that you survived the crash I would expect no less, but with the simple experience of setting the plane ablaze, stalking it with convening into a charred corpse, and sacrificing the building.
• 1:33:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Avengers and hope can assume this project has met a fiery end, but it's only begun.
• 1:33:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I welcome you all to the first meeting of the new World Order.
• 1:33:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here, in this subterranean backup headquarters, we shall have our equivalent of the United Nations.
• 1:34:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: No more petty bickering or in internecine warfare, we will draw packed gentlemen.
• 1:34:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: We will have strength in unity and with that strength, we will come the destruction for our adversaries.
• 1:34:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, then the score has to kill a man for telling him that their secret project has escaped, which brings us to again a peace meal.
• 1:34:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to go there today, but this is an agent of Henry Peter Gairek who got captured by the Red Skull and then like turned into a weird composite of a whole bunch of super villains mixed together and then sent to fight the Hulk.
• 1:34:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's fine.
• 1:34:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: The new world order like shows up like a few years later, but the Red Skull is not really part of that story any longer.
• 1:34:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So jumping into the crazy world of South America with this Red Skull story.
• 1:34:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me welcome my dear friend Patricia Oliver back to the show.
• 1:34:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Patricia.
• 1:34:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is a lot.
• 1:34:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought to open, are you a red skull fan?
• 1:34:49
  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I'm not, because I just realized that I haven't read much about him in, I mean, I don't know why.
• 1:34:56
  [SPEAKER_06]: When you ask me for to be in this episode, I started to think, how many books have I read about them that's called in my life?
• 1:35:02
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm actually think I read for or three sagas, the more like one from Ankeny, the Ankeny Avengers, an acts of vengeance in the Avengers, and some, I don't know, maybe a
• 1:35:15
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the red skull is very famous, it's a very important billion in the Marvel Universe.
• 1:35:20
  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's very symbolic of many things that are wrong in the Marvel Universe.
• 1:35:23
  [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't know, I've never got very involved with the red skull.
• 1:35:27
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not sure if I even know how he actually is in terms of personality.
• 1:35:31
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I mean, just think like Hitler but worse.
• 1:35:34
  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what then you got.
• 1:35:35
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's what.
• 1:35:36
  [SPEAKER_06]: The whole purpose of creating the Earth's call was to replace Hitler and use this new sort of creature, I don't know, I like him in the Captain America movie, the first one, I think I played by Hugo Weaving.
• 1:35:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was excellent.
• 1:35:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we jumped into South America here, which is why I specifically rejected that story.
• 1:35:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we could talk about any story and have fun, but I hope you were excited to see Juggernaut on the page at the very least.
• 1:35:59
  [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, actually, I was very excited with this.
• 1:36:01
  [SPEAKER_06]: I really like Peter David, I really enjoyed his work.
• 1:36:05
  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I've left the whole book by this time, so this is just a word new for me.
• 1:36:09
  [SPEAKER_06]: This is the first time I ever write down.
• 1:36:11
  [SPEAKER_06]: I love Cain, I love the juggernaut.
• 1:36:13
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's an amazing, I love how the Hulk doesn't recognize that he's fighting the juggernaut during the whole race for a scene like, come on, don't you realize that's the juggernaut?
• 1:36:21
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not very hard to tell that, that's Cain.
• 1:36:23
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the way he talks.
• 1:36:24
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's, it's easy to recognize Cain when he's fighting.
• 1:36:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Juggernaut vs Hulk is really fun.
• 1:36:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do a monthly character trial on my show if you've ever heard any what would we Way back at the beginning of the show.
• 1:36:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: We did Juggernaut very early on and I remember Anthony Oliver and I specifically I'd leave Williams was there too having a conversation about like oh, this is like the era where like Kane would take a job working for anyone But like working for the Nazi guy.
• 1:36:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is like slow.
• 1:36:49
  [SPEAKER_06]: This is the worst
• 1:36:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's not even using his helmet and his uniform, he's like, he's a working class villain, like, part there's also part where like Hulk just pulls his helmet off, like he just think it's like so easy, it's crazy.
• 1:37:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the mental out here, mental out also should not be here.
• 1:37:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: As a as a Jewish mutant, this is not your place, my friend, wrong job strong.
• 1:37:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he's the eventual trial of mental out on my show.
• 1:37:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get there.
• 1:37:15
  [SPEAKER_06]: That even happens to real life, because we have some queer people working for my
• 1:37:24
  [SPEAKER_06]: And so, I don't know, I guess these people with this sort of life, they will choose to work even with someone like the red skull, which is like one of the worst from the whole number of universe.
• 1:37:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did you enjoy the Avengers here, too?
• 1:37:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love the messy 90s Avengers.
• 1:37:37
  [SPEAKER_06]: I love these Avengers.
• 1:37:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: They are the worst and the best at the same time.
• 1:37:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're all in the matching jackets and sercy and hercules and is a little tiny underwear.
• 1:37:46
  [SPEAKER_06]: The whole dynamic between Cersei Crystal and Dangwickman and Hercules and the other ones I've been in this vision who's the new is the old vision yet, and I don't know, I love that This is the white vision, the like before you turn into the regular vision again
• 1:38:02
  [SPEAKER_06]: I love this area of the Avengers.
• 1:38:04
  [SPEAKER_06]: People hated it, but then in the night is when they were.
• 1:38:07
  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought some of my friends said this is horrible.
• 1:38:09
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
• 1:38:09
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm really enjoying this team.
• 1:38:11
  [SPEAKER_06]: I loved them.
• 1:38:11
  [SPEAKER_06]: They're so messy.
• 1:38:13
  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't care what you think.
• 1:38:14
  [SPEAKER_06]: I love crystal and I love Cersei.
• 1:38:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: Both of them are amazing.
• 1:38:17
  [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't know.
• 1:38:19
  [SPEAKER_06]: I was very pleased to see them in the book.
• 1:38:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as far as the red skull goes specifically, the, I think the most prominent part here is this kind of raised a day as with the symbol of the skull in the antlers behind him as he's declaring a new world order.
• 1:38:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's just scary.
• 1:38:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: It never really goes anywhere and he's got his hands on 400 pies during this time, but like it's, it's kind of jarring.
• 1:38:38
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, when I, when we reached that point, I was like, what's going on here?
• 1:38:41
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's just, I'm not sure if he's going to use different superbillions on people.
• 1:38:47
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, because he's very like this sort of business man, let's call.
• 1:38:51
  [SPEAKER_06]: Very Lex Lutter.
• 1:38:52
  [SPEAKER_06]: Lex Lutter too.
• 1:38:53
  [SPEAKER_06]: Like, he has this very like boy and suit.
• 1:38:55
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm talking about I own the land so I can do whatever I want the lowest in my favor I can do whatever I want with this but so I think this is let's call in business man mode so I'm not sure if this this will apply to this new sort of organization which is creating for the book
• 1:39:13
  [SPEAKER_06]: Because it seems like he's trying to recreate the UN, but at the same time, he's using super brilliance as part of the team.
• 1:39:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't care if you know, this is kind of red skull as the kingpin in a lot of ways that he's really prominently in the Captain America books in this era where he's he's like funding hydra and the watchdogs and all these things.
• 1:39:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he's got like a special team of operatives, but he's also he's his skull is real it's real face.
• 1:39:37
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's real face, not at all, man.
• 1:39:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, because his face got burned by his own dust of that.
• 1:39:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he's living in his soul has been transferred into a clone of Captain America's body.
• 1:39:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he's like, he's like this huge buff cap guy with a red skull face.
• 1:39:52
  [SPEAKER_06]: So he loves doing that.
• 1:39:53
  [SPEAKER_06]: Because the last time I read about him was when he uses professor Xavier body on uncanny oven jars.
• 1:40:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he wants to be inside Captain America so bad.
• 1:40:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I can tell, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we know.
• 1:40:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: He loves, so he said, well he's not sure.
• 1:40:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: He loves, so like, I need that body for me.
• 1:40:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I need to be by myself with this body.
• 1:40:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, but it's also the perfect Aryan body, right?
• 1:40:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even though Steve's America, it's like this blonde, but like that's what they say they want.
• 1:40:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I open today, this story was based in South America, and it's a lot of complex history.
• 1:40:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I open today with kind of thoughts about Argentina's place in the war, and I hope I did that thoughtfully and fairly.
• 1:40:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to hear some of your thoughts, and you're welcome to share your experiences or even your family's experiences during this season.
• 1:40:38
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a difficult question, because I have to be very, I don't know how to come straight with this one.
• 1:40:42
  [SPEAKER_06]: I have a friend, he's name is Ignacio Minaveri, he's Minaveri, he's a comic book artist here in Argentina, he's amazing and he created this book called Dora where he explores the whole thing about chasing nazis in the world around the world after the World War II and he also created these special issues where he talks about what's happening here in Argentina.
• 1:41:02
  [SPEAKER_06]: So
• 1:41:02
  [SPEAKER_06]: So I thought I knew everything, and not everything, but I thought I knew some stuff up related to all this, and then he told me everything's wrong.
• 1:41:10
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, all the things that you know about this is what you see on history channel and stuff like that.
• 1:41:15
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's more complex, it's more, I mean, it's, so the thing is after, after talking to, within us, you have all this whole stuff about Nazis and Argentina.
• 1:41:24
  [SPEAKER_06]: I realize it's a very touchy subject where some information that we have is not what it seems and there's different versions of how the whole thing we know we have.
• 1:41:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was not expecting work like this.
• 1:41:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: I tried to do it diplomatically, but it may not be entirely accurate and there's certainly more than one perspective.
• 1:41:42
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's very hard to get it accurate actually.
• 1:41:45
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's very hard to subject and it's very hard to get the whole information.
• 1:41:50
  [SPEAKER_06]: So don't worry about that.
• 1:41:51
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you did your best and it was amazing.
• 1:41:53
  [SPEAKER_06]: I was born to South Argentina and many of the Nazis used to live in the South Argentina.
• 1:41:58
  [SPEAKER_06]: So it was very common to hear all the stories about them.
• 1:42:01
  [SPEAKER_06]: That this Nazi war criminal living in a small village.
• 1:42:05
  [SPEAKER_06]: And everyone will say, oh, we've seen him there.
• 1:42:07
  [SPEAKER_06]: We know he lives there.
• 1:42:08
  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's very lagged.
• 1:42:09
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a mix between your religion and true facts and the whole thing with the pedon government.
• 1:42:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's also a very, it's a mix back of information when it comes to what's really happened, but then.
• 1:42:22
  [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't know, I'm not the most,
• 1:42:26
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not an expert on the subject actually, but I know it's it's it's more complex that is seen that deeply It is what I mean, it's a fact that we use to have many Nazis more criminals from the second world here It's a fact that's not just a myth or something like that.
• 1:42:42
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's no like this you over legend from Argentina It it happened and we were very bold in that matter
• 1:42:47
  [SPEAKER_06]: The other day, my boyfriend told me that they found here in Argentina some pieces of art that were stolen during the Nazi government and they were taken from Europe to Argentina and they found them here so there's the whole team of people that are looking for this missing pieces of art so they found one of these paintings a few weeks ago here so that's something that's happening now here and those places where we're stolen from Europe back in the 40s when after the war ended.
• 1:43:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: So there are many layers connected to this whole thing with Nazis and there were will too.
• 1:43:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you want to share what you've guys have been going through in Argentina these days.
• 1:43:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's weirdly, I mean, I've never been, but I think it's very similar to what's been happening in America with its own, you know, specific lands, of course.
• 1:43:32
  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the thing is, a few years ago, this new government happened to one of the elections, they're called Libertarian, Libertarians or something like that.
• 1:43:42
  [SPEAKER_06]: They're the president of our president, Javier Mielei.
• 1:43:45
  [SPEAKER_06]: He's this nutcase who thinks he's this sort of Donald Trump fan who loves to be this sort of copycat that everything that Donald Trump does is what he wants to do.
• 1:43:57
  [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't know, it's so terrible for us to have this guy here.
• 1:44:01
  [SPEAKER_06]: He's so, he's the range, absolutely range.
• 1:44:04
  [SPEAKER_06]: The way he talks, the things he talks about, his policies, the way he doesn't care about Argentina at all.
• 1:44:09
  [SPEAKER_06]: And the way he's trying to target different groups, like immigrants, he's trying to target people from the LGBT community.
• 1:44:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: He sends his horrible things about us.
• 1:44:18
  [SPEAKER_06]: We have here Argentina.
• 1:44:19
  [SPEAKER_06]: We have this public education universities which is very good and he's trying to target public education.
• 1:44:25
  [SPEAKER_06]: So people will have, you know, and everything related to founding and public education, healthcare and stuff like that.
• 1:44:32
  [SPEAKER_06]: So he.
• 1:44:33
  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, he loves Donald Trump.
• 1:44:34
  [SPEAKER_06]: So who is tried to do everything as much as possible to replicate everything Donald Trump is doing in the United States?
• 1:44:40
  [SPEAKER_06]: But the matter of the problem is, we are not the United States.
• 1:44:42
  [SPEAKER_06]: We are Argentina.
• 1:44:43
  [SPEAKER_06]: We are a different, completely different kind of monster and creature.
• 1:44:45
  [SPEAKER_06]: So if you try to apply all these different sorts of laws and restrictions here in our country, it will destroy us.
• 1:44:53
  [SPEAKER_06]: It makes no sense, they're trying to, of course, he's against feminism, he's against diversity.
• 1:45:00
  [SPEAKER_06]: He is, I mean, Bolsonaro, they are the only same coral thing.
• 1:45:04
  [SPEAKER_06]: So, for us, it's very hard, it's been too, very hard, difficult years for us.
• 1:45:10
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm a university teacher here in Argentina.
• 1:45:12
  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you, I guess, you can guess how hard things are for me at the moment.
• 1:45:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm also a guy, a guy, a guy, a guy, man.
• 1:45:19
  [SPEAKER_06]: So, it's been tough, it's been really tough.
• 1:45:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:45:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was traveling in Canada recently and whenever the topic would come up, I would just be like, I don't know what to say about America.
• 1:45:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's embarrassing, it's embarrassing.
• 1:45:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I don't know what to do about it.
• 1:45:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It just is what it is.
• 1:45:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you feel like you have so little control.
• 1:45:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Doing these little episodes is weirdly healing for me.
• 1:45:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, delving into history and seeing the parallels, but putting it under the lens of silly comic books at the same time, you know?
• 1:45:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a nice chance to connect with individual friends and kind of talk about what's going on.
• 1:45:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you mentioned as we started and this won't come out for several weeks after we record, but you guys had elections today.
• 1:45:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like they were yesterday.
• 1:45:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:45:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:45:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:45:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:45:56
  [SPEAKER_06]: We had elections yesterday and this was this sort of light of hope in the end of the tunnel because we it was for the province of Buenos Aires province elections.
• 1:46:05
  [SPEAKER_06]: And actually, they didn't, they loose by a 10 points margin.
• 1:46:11
  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's a lot, actually it's 13 points of margin, which is a lot here.
• 1:46:15
  [SPEAKER_06]: So we're very like into enthusiastic with the whole situation.
• 1:46:19
  [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't know, I want to keep my,
• 1:46:22
  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to be so like I don't know.
• 1:46:25
  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to I want to take it easy with the whole thing because I don't want to get my expectations to high Because we still have two years more But it is nice.
• 1:46:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is nice to have news Yeah, I got here.
• 1:46:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I got some very dear friends who are from Syria who there were some news They were rejoicing over and the news.
• 1:46:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: They were devastated over and Joy-sing and the devastated again.
• 1:46:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's tricky because the move so moves so fast these days
• 1:46:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you see, I think you're incredible.
• 1:46:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to hear any final thoughts.
• 1:46:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have kind of uh, based on what it was like to jump into this world if any.
• 1:46:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm so grateful for the opportunity to connect with you.
• 1:46:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for your time.
• 1:46:57
  [SPEAKER_06]: I really enjoy reading.
• 1:46:58
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm all the rest of the cult, because it hasn't been between a while since I last read this character.
• 1:47:02
  [SPEAKER_06]: I think the way you portray his voice and the way he talks, it's also funny because it's the way the way I picture him talking to my mind.
• 1:47:10
  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's a kind of how we all think he speaks like that.
• 1:47:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a there's some old there's some old characters from Saturday night live years ago called Hans and Frons and we I had to pump you up like that's the voice I'm using for sure.
• 1:47:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want him to sound as stupid as possible
• 1:47:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what did you want to connect with you, man?
• 1:47:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, and everybody listened for the previous year over on the beautiful Dreamer episode as well.
• 1:47:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we brought the Patreon.
• 1:47:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: We had such a good time putting that together.
• 1:47:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, thanks for listening.
• 1:47:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody take care of yourselves.
• 1:47:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a crazy world out there.
• 1:47:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was back there very soon.
• 1:47:45
  [UNKNOWN]: Bye.
• 1:47:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to Grimalk and Lane.
• 1:47:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: We hope you are enjoying this podcast.
• 1:47:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Grimalk and Lane is produced and recorded in Salt Lake City, Utah with music and editing done by my husband, Michael Bell, and promo art done by the incredible Seth Martell.
• 1:48:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Look for us on Patreon, where we are releasing weekly episodes about obscure characters and facts.
• 1:48:06
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• 1:48:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, the best way you could help
• 1:48:14
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• 1:48:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you back your next time on Grimmulkin Lane.