Latest / The Crowded Market / How To Make B2B Marketing Fun Again: Heather Barnett

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How To Make B2B Marketing Fun Again: Heather Barnett · The Crowded Market

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we're going to talk about why your LinkedIn content strategy is making you invisible and what you can actually do about it.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Heather Barnett is a B2B copywriter who's built a massive following doing the one thing that most companies are scared to do.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: B2B marketing is called almost a little bit afraid to be different.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh god, I think there's loads of reasons why.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're selling to businesses, you're supposed to be professional.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that word professional is responsible for a lot because people think, you know, professional means, oh my god, well I mustn't show that I've got any personality.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I don't want to look an idiot and I don't want my company to look an idiot.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're covering why B2B companies are so bad at explaining what they do and how humour works in marketing.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Why do people play it safe?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Why are they a bit boring?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people are afraid of alienating people, so they make something so generic, you know, streamlined solutions for bum blh.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they've basically raised it up to a level, it's just it's gobbledygook at that point.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because they don't want to say we make your widgets run faster or whatever.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: You can watch this episode on YouTube and listen on all major podcast platforms.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into the show.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming, firstly, all the way down to Bristol on a nice and overcast day.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's quite it's been absolute blind weather.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: I landed back from Mallorca yesterday and had a nice couple of days in the sun and I got off the plane and it was actually sunny here as well.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Would you believe it?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I would believe it.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: I thought it was gonna be like that all week.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Unbelievable.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um I've I'm an admirer of you, Heather.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're brilliant.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um if anybody who doesn't know or is been living under a rock, you are the, in my opinion, the queen of LinkedIn at the moment, for me anyway.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have turned what I what is deemed to be a fairly horizontal marketing industry into uh not that.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you've called a lot out along the way in terms of that and strategic marketing and how it's been um sold and what it is, um, and you make skits and comedy videos about that and what it's like to be a B2B marketer or a copywriter or anything like that.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and looking at the flaws of it, the fun of it, and what it's turning into.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: What not possessed you?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's an awful way to put it.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why the hell?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: What where did you where did this idea come from?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, what what about your background?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you're a you're a you're a B2B, you've been in B2B or in marketing for many years, and then you went freelance, right?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then now you're and I guess you figured out a marketing avenue.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about it.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: How did this happen?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I've been in B2B for about 20 years, and I've been ahead of marketing, and I left to go freelance as a copywriter.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I knew I'd kind of get enough, well, I didn't know, but I I found I could get enough work from my network.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: But even if you can do that, I think you need to keep front of mind in some way so that when people are thinking, oh, I need a new copywriter, yeah, you're the first person that comes to mind, or one of the first people who come to mind.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I started doing videos basically just to kind of go, hello, here I am on LinkedIn.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the funny element of it was that um in other parts of my life, so I've written a couple of novels and published them with very small publisher, so there wasn't a bunch of marketing budget.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd kind of done funny videos to s to promote those.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd kind of thought when I went freelance, oh well, maybe I could bring some of that over.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd done a bit of kind of comedy performance, like a very small amount of stand-up and things like that.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so yeah, I thought I'll just try and meld the two together.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's quite scary doing it the first time, you know, putting yourself on LinkedIn a couple of years ago with a funny video, thinking, is it funny?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Will anyone else find it funny?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but it went really well, so yeah, that's kind of like from there.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I basically built to the point where I started posting one a week, and now I post one a week.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Novels?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: What I didn't know this.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: What novels?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like romantic comedies.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So again, funny.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, interesting.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then you brought that over to using it as your main marketing effort now, really.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: And more than that now, I suppose it's kind of like it's a marketing effort, but it's also just something I do because I love it, and I'm getting other work, actually doing that for other people as well.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, which we need to talk about.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: We will, and we will talk about that.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that what stands about out about your content to me is um it I I can't I don't want to say calling out strange practices within B2B, but it is it is in a way, isn't it?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's highlighting things in B2B marketing that exist that are slightly odd and not very human, almost, isn't it?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and the efforts that some companies go to in order to put these together.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what in your opinion, I'd say B2B marketing is almost a little bit afraid to be different.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: What why is that?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think that is?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you like the way this podcast looks, then we can do this for you.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: LRB are a B2B podcast production agency that drive leads and sales for your business using the podcasting strategy.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Link in the description.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh God, I think there's loads of reasons why.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think you know, when you work in a company, any company, you're supposed to fit in for a start.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, Mavericks don't do very well in companies, so you're already from a position where it's kind of like do the same as everybody else.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um then you're selling to businesses, so you're often selling like really expensive products, you know, it's very valuable deals, so you're worried about things going wrong.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you because you're selling to businesses, you're supposed to be professional.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that word professional is responsible for a lot because people think, you know, professional means, oh my god, I mustn't show that I've got any personality, and you know, I don't want to look an idiot, and I don't want my company to look an idiot.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, let's just let's not rock the boat, basically.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: So let's keep things nice and safe.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Which which, when you think about open marketing, it's just like it's the opposite of what you want to do, is you want to stand out in marketing because otherwise no one will see it and no one will pay attention and then no one will consider you, and then no one will convert and all that kind of stuff.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: But somehow, when you start putting marketers or any people in a business-to-business organization, because of these various factors that I've just mentioned, you you start kind of like suppressing all of that and just wanting to kind of fit in.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know what, it's the same with uh um and and B2B marketing does the same.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: They've all got the same bloody straplines, the same brand, and you know, uh the websites are carbon copies of each other and the way that they're structured, and and and it's always I always relate a little bit to design.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was kind of looking into graph, I I kind of diverged a bit into graphic design in the early stages of my career.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's something called flat design which exists now, which is what everything is, so it's just kind of flat, pastel colours and design with a nice emblem for a shape, right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Which is your logo, and every company has done that for the last 20 years.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Apple are the people who answer for it, they were the people who came out with minimalist design first, everybody's copied it, and it's kind of never left.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: With our logo for like for this podcast, for instance, I've added a drop shadow, right?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: That is seen as a heinous crime in the design world, but nobody else is doing it, right?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of a little bit like that, and businesses uh are the exact same in terms of they're just play it safe, we're um and they forget that they're marketing to humans as well, right?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think there should be a distinguishable difference between B2B and B2C.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: But we've stripped every little bit of fun from marketing for a lot of marketers.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I think people forget to put their own uh lens on things, you know, God, that's such a B2B thing to say.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Think about the things that you enjoy reading and consuming and stuff, and it's almost like they they leave that at the door when they come into the office or the virtual office or whatever it is, because it's suddenly like, oh yeah, no, I'm marketing to a business.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean I would enjoy this thing over here or reading that, but it's like, but this is mm, this is B2B.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: So as you say, it's it's kind of like they're almost marketing to the business instead of marketing to the people within the business, which yes is different to B2C.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like you do have to think about different, you know, there are buying groups that are all influencing it, and there are massive, great big um purchases that people are making, so it is a bit different, but um, yeah, it's it's still kind of yeah, ask yourself what you would like to read, and you know, and really do you want to read that great big long blog that's that's full of kind of leveraging and streamlining and synergizing and all that kind of stuff?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I can think of about one percent of people who might actually enjoy that.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you you do a lot of skits around um the taglines, and I remember speaking in the pre-c pre pre-call to this uh about how all the taglines are you you can't tell what anybody does anymore, right?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you've done a few skits about this, and it's something that I um hate, like genuinely despise.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I hate it when I go on over to a website and there's no I always talk I talk to my friend Lee Glenn about it, he's a YouTube expert, and he is obviously it with YouTube, it's all about the literal what are you actually talking about?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I solve this problem for this thing.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: You have this, you know, we do this to solve this problem.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And but that's not the case with businesses, is it, at all?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they kind of say the most ridiculous straplines in terms of strategic uh, you know, uh angled solutions for X, Y, and Z.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what did you advise people against that?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you worked, you know, because you obviously worked for clients and things like that.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: That m loads of them must have wanted to do that, and that must have made your toes curl.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it always has, and I yeah, of course I would always advise against it, and I do now when I'm working um on people with uh on copy of the people, but um again, there is I think there are so many reasons why people do it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um fear plays a big part, I think, and fear plays uh in a lot of these things that we're talking about.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: So why do people play it safe?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Why are they a bit boring?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much fear, and I think sometimes people are afraid of alienating people, so they make something so generic, you know, streamlined solutions for blah blah blah.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they've basically raised it up to a level, it's just it's gobbledygook um at that point because they don't want to say we make your widgets run faster or whatever it is, you know what I mean?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's like because it's like, oh, but there'll be someone else in the team going, yeah, that's nice, but we also do XYZ things.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: So can we add that in?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then can we add that in?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And by the time everyone's had a say, it doesn't mean anything.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's just words.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's just words, and it's and it's very generic.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there's loads of other stuff that builds into that.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you see those kind of websites where it's it just makes me laugh.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I have got a folder on my computer called um examples of terrible copy, and and I snip, you know, I screenshot websites and things like that that I see, and that sometimes inspires skits or or whatever.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but often you can you can almost see what's happened to get there, and it'll be things like um say the copywriter's been really badly briefed.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: So they've said, Oh, could you just redo our website?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and I can imagine a copywriter kind of going and wanting to do a good job and being like, Yeah, so what do you want me to say?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And they'll be like, Oh, I don't know, we streamlined solutions, you know, but there's no there's no nuggets to to kind of grab hold of, and there's nothing tangible in there.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody's actually spoken to the people who are the subject matter experts in the business who really know what they actually do, um, and then uh been able to kind of convert that into language, again, taking the kind of professional stuff out of it, because that's the other thing, is that they then somebody might write a good bit of copy or might have a good idea of what the company does, but then it'll almost go through the kind of like professionalization machine, and it's kind of like, yeah, we could say we do that, but why don't we say we deploy that?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you know what I mean?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and so then again it becomes hard that the mental effort you're asking people to put in to understand what you actually mean is it's a deterrent.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, at the end of each sketch, can you please take out one of those screenshots of the company and say this was inspired by absolutely the thing is, I genuinely don't want to pick on people, I don't want it because I because having words in B2B for so long, I do understand that you know sometimes people really want to do good work and for whatever reason they can't.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think I think it's mean sometimes when people are you know screenshotting things and sharing it on on LinkedIn and kind of like naming names, it's just like come on, not and it's a product of a lot of people, exactly.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not one person who came up with that.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like you said, it's gone through the meat machine and it's come out with a thousand voices.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like we work in video, think about how many people have an I've mentioned this already today, but we had somebody come on the podcast, Ivana, who owns an agency, and she said marketing is the only uh profession where everyone's got an opinion.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's it's so true, and everybody has to have a say, and we deal with it in video all the time.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: We send revisions off and we send final cuts off or episodes off, and it's been commented on by everybody and their grandmother, and you kind of go back and you're like, There's too many cooks, like you've hired these people.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you going to the sales department?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you going to HR to ask their opinion about this copy or this and that?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing that?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to, you need to kind of stick with your department, and it's almost like people don't trust the marketers enough to do that for them, which is upsetting.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know why it is that people think they've got to say.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, it's kind of a fun thing, isn't it?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone's seen marketing and seen advertising, so they think they they can kind of weigh in.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a connection to the outside world.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's what so that's what she said.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's everybody you're talking to the outside world, and everyone's got their own experience of the outside world, so they they believe uh an opinion to be valid.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it just it does generate a whole that whole problem with too many cooks in the kitchen, yeah.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then everybody it just goes through the meat machine and you come out with some trollop.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you trollop?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Now that is interesting.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where I got, I don't know where that came from, but I'm enjoying the dead.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Need to be trollops, that's a whole new theme.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: This is a new series.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, right, your sketches, you've been pumping them out for how how many a couple of years now, right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um where are these ideas coming from?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: What gives you the um so some of it is like things that I've seen online where I'll just become like this is ridiculous.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Write it down.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it will literally make me laugh when I I have to try and kind of like re-express it as a funny skit.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's things that happened to me, you know, many, as I say, I've had a lot of I've worked client side, I've worked agency side, I've been freelanced, I've had lots of different kind of working experiences.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um so things that have happened a long time ago, things that happened recently, comments I see people making on LinkedIn, you know, it's it's all the kind of things where um it'll be a scenario where I think I know a lot of people are probably experiencing this, but maybe they haven't crystallized it in their heads in this way.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of like doing it with comedy is a way of going, look, this is absurd.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're all doing this thing, and it's really ridiculous.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Can you see how ridiculous it is?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, I think people enjoy that because a lot of people, it might not change behaviour, or maybe some people already, you know, they've changed their behavior and they recognize it.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Some people might carry on doing it, but at least we can kind of go, Oh god, yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's stupid, isn't it?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: But we're all doing it, you know.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's I think it's nice for people to feel like they're part of a of a community.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, and that's always a risk that I'm taking, I suppose, when I'm putting something out there.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking this is something that I experienced.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's a common experience in B2B, and I put it out there and I find out because you know, sometimes things will resonate and sometimes they won't resonate.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very true.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Relatable comedy comedy is a is an interesting thing from all facets.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like you hear comedians talk on stage and you kind of go, I th I genuinely thought that was only me.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and that how every time, and that's why they're so good, because they're kind of zooming in on those on those small little nuances that we all have, or those things that we all do that we all think is oh, it's only me that thinks that way, it's only me that does that.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we find out, oh, it's not.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's some some part of that's like refreshing because you're like, oh, I'm not alone, but then other parts you go, oh, so I'm not very unique.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Which is that's another problem.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: I guess so, but I think when it's something that you've been struggling with or whatever, it's quite nice to feel like you're not unique, because then it's like you've got a support system of like other people who are go going through the same problem.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so you out of interest, because I mean the the reason that you started making the sketches is because you went freelance, right?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you went freelance from um a full-time role.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'd when I first got into marketing, it was because I wanted to do something creative.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you'd said to me when I was 16 or something, what do you want to do?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: I would have said I want to be an actress.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: But then I'd kind of like got a bit older and thought, you know what, I probably need an office job to earn some money.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I went into an office job and thought marketing seems like the most creative thing I could do.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but after you've done it for 20 years and you get more senior, it's not that creative anymore because you're kind of managing teams and doing budgeting and planning and all that kind of stuff.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the stuff, the element that I really liked about my job was the creative.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it was coming up with ideas and writing.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I just got to a point of thinking, do you know what?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in a lucky position that I probably can take a punt on this and see if I can do copywriting, freelance.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: If it doesn't work, I'll just go and get another job.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if it does work, brilliant.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: I get to kind of work for myself, and you know, it's it really suits me as a personality.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't particularly like working in a company, I like working for myself.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, so yeah, it was all that combination of things.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Would you never look back then in terms of you think yeah, the path set now?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so freelance.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well I hope so.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: You might look at it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: In a year's time, if I'm back at a company, I'll be changing my mind.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people don't, you know, don't make it or they don't like.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so I mean, there's nothing about like when I first went freelance, the the autonomy just it was incredible, and I I don't think I could ever let it go again.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like being able to just go to the dentist.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Does that sound weird?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: But do you know No, no, just be in control of your own hours to me is amazing.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's just it's uh it's a powerful thing, and it's not for everyone though.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's the that's the other problem, is that we're we're part of a of this uproar, and LinkedIn's got a lot to answer for for this of telling everybody that they need to start their own thing, and if you don't, it's pointless.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're you're just a you're a sheep, you are a follower, and you're oh and it's demonised 9.5, and I am just not an advocate of it because that we 9.5 is a required in every business, and they're important, and they're some of the hardest working people I know, and they love that structure, and they love being part of a company.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're not a cog in a wheel or anything like that, but it's created um for a good reason as well.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of entrepreneurs and people who've thought freelancing is for them, but then we've had a there's a lot of failures that come out of that because people then also realize oh, that's not actually all it's cracked up to be.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what I need.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I need I need structure, I need a yeah, that around me, I need that team, I need to be part of it.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you need to be that so like I had a call with someone recently who was thinking about going freelance, and much as I'm kind of saying, I love it, and for me it's brilliant, I would never say to anybody else, do it, you should definitely do it.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't know their circumstances, I don't know what they're comfortable with.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: You do have to be comfortable with a level of uncertainty because you know, for me, particularly when I first started out in the first year or so, I didn't always know if I was going to get enough work to carry on or not.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, if you're not comfortable with that or you don't have the circumstances where you can do that, then don't jump into it.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you need to be aware that it's the whole point of freelance is that it's uncertain.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I love that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I love having different clients and doing different things, and as you say, like being able to go go to the dentist.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: I go to the dentist once a week now, Luke.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Just for the hell of it.
• 18:47
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: I um it I I would I'd never look back and I I do adore it with everything, and I I do like having the autonomy.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I did see an expression there, like I quit my I quit my full-time employment so I didn't have to work 9-5, now I work 24-7, and it is true.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: But there's something beautiful about working on your own thing, isn't it?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: But if you if you love it, I am not gonna say that phrase about you'll never work a day in your life.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Just a bit.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um but but genuinely, I I love what I do, and so I don't it doesn't feel like I'm working outside of hours if I'm working outside of office hours.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like I'm working, I'm I'll do it because I have an idea or something, and I think, oh, have anyone on that?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not because somebody's telling me I have to.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: When you left the role then, just out of interest, like did you have a good, just a good bank of connections that you knew that you could lean in on them for work?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that I could, but I I you know as I said, I'd worked in that industry for 20 years.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: I was really lucky that the agency I left um were brilliant and said, Well, we'll be your first client as well.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that was kind of a soft landing of like I knew I had some work coming up.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as I say, it was more a case of thinking, I think I've probably got enough connections, and I knew some agencies if I needed to that, you know, that kind of like would work.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: I actually never ended up using them, but like temp agencies for copywriters, for contractor agencies.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so no, it was more of a kind of let's see, I I got to the point of thinking I really have to do something different because I know this isn't the path I want to carry on down, as I say, and if it doesn't work, I'll just have to go and get another job.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's always that, isn't there?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's a it's a nice position to think in like I've got the experience, I can probably walk, not walk into another role, but I can just walk into any job I like.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll just hire me, you know, it's not my fault.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so right, so the the the existence of your content online has uh the whole purpose of it is that B2B companies, you don't have to be boring, and you actually can just tell us what you do, right?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we've kind of gathered from this.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: What could it be to be, what could uh you've got a marketer listen to this B2B marketer who's maybe stuck in that little bit of rigid marketing mindset.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're kind of ruled by their evil overlords on how they should be marketing the company.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: What could they do?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: What can they do?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are some simple things that they could potentially introduce into their marketing efforts?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: I suppose, first of all, ask yourself why you're not taking a risk at the moment, because I think that's a really interesting thing to delve into.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that there's a lot of people out there saying, just take a risk, go and take a risk.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, okay, why aren't people taking a risk though?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's it seems easy that if you want to stand out, you need to do things differently, but people aren't doing it.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to ask yourself, what are you worried about?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is it that you're worried that you'll look an idiot?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Are you worried that you'll make your company look an idiot?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Are you well worried about your career?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, all those things, maybe break it down, kind of think, but how realistic is it?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how badly could you fail?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, what would the repercussions be?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because I really believe that a lot of the time people are overstating the risk of what might happen if they do things differently, and they're understating the risk of what might happen if you keep doing the same thing and not standing out in terms of your own marketing for your company, the your company's growth, your own like mental well being.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, do you want to be going into the office and doing the same as everybody else or doing the same thing?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you want to have a bit of fun and you know, and maybe try something and maybe it won't work, but maybe it will.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if it does, you know, what a buzz to do something different.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's one big thing is just if you're not really taking many risks, having things About why you're not, and is it worth maybe doing that?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then on a more practical level, I think get away from that generic style by properly finding out what is different about your company because there will be something different.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: But you need to dig for that.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: You need to go and speak to the people who really understand, you know, maybe the product people or, you know, the chief technical officer or whatever it is for your company who actually understands what's different about the product, but maybe isn't very good at translating that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's often marketing's role is speaking to the experts or the engineers or whatever it might be who are deep in the weeds of it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they can't necessarily recognise what is going to resonate externally and what's going to make people sit up and pay attention.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's your job to go and have some really good conversations with them where you might just like stumble across something where you're like, oh my god, I can't believe we're not talking about this.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can think about how you translate that into marketing that will make people listen.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that to me is is coming back to what we said before about what it what do you want to listen to?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what do you like funny stuff?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Do you like um stuff that doesn't isn't full of professional language?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how could you do this?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's look at what your competitors are doing, because it's I think it's good to see what other people are doing, so that you can then go, I'm not gonna do that, and I'm not gonna do that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, nobody is doing this thing over here.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe look at some kind of cultural references and think, you know, don't just think about other marketing collateral as your competition, because that isn't just your competition.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: People are being distracted and entertained by things all over the place now because we have so many different channels that we're looking at all the time.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's exhausting, isn't it?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's exhausting.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, what could you learn from how people are doing things on Netflix or or you know, but have a bit of ambition about like what are some cultural tropes that you could dive into?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's so much that you could be doing, and I'm making it sound really easy.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I said I guess go off and do this stuff, and I understand it isn't when you're in an organization because there are lots of layers that you have to go through, but I I think it's worth thinking about why you're not doing it maybe now and and pushing to do something different.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: What about championing the people as well?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a lot of uh that's that's kind of our job, right?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: The reason that we build podcasts for businesses is because they need to they need to bring the people in the business and show the the expertise, right?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and the knowledge of these humans and how and and what we like to say is dangling the carrot and like uh giving a little bit of the recipe of how people can do X for themselves, but then it feeling overwhelming enough for somebody to instigate a call with your business, right?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or something like that.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And all that is through generating a relationship through marketing, not not by somebody watching LinkedIn and looking at a logo, but by looking at the people in the business.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are you an advocate of people doing that?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think it's important to work out how those people are comfortable sharing their knowledge.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: So there'll be some people who would be great on camera, for example.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's some people who hate being on camera and they'll suddenly they'll freeze like this, they won't be able to kind of and they'll come across very wooden written stuff.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Some people, you know, I've worked with people who've given me something they've written in Chat GPT.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just like, this isn't gonna, this is the whole point.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you've taken your personality out of it.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: We need to sit down and I'll interview you and I'll help you write something if you're not a writer.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the marketer's role is to find those people and the best way that you can absolutely you need to show who the people are in the business and get their personalities out there or get their knowledge out there and their expertise, but um, it'll be different for different people.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll find that like specifically with us, like when when people f initially have some time on camera, they're rigid and they're stiff, and it's not very natural, it doesn't actually take that much longer for them to come out of their shell a little bit.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's why podcasts work.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a we're we're not we're not talking any differently than we were a minute ago when the cameras are off, and that's why it's once we've kind of you've kind of got used to all of this, and most people are the same.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can have a quite frank discussion.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we always say when if people have done, if you've ever had a panel discussion, if you've had a meeting, if you've had a conversation with a human being, you've done a podcast.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you've just not like hit record and then might repurpose it and used it for a great amount of content.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and when we say that, people kind of go, Oh, right, that's how it's meant to feel.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it eases things a little bit.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then before you know it, you're kind of getting people in and you're creating this, you know, the this content series for a business with people at the heart of it and that you're connecting with.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's way more powerful than anything that a logo can present.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not denying brand.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Brand is incredibly strong, but well, that's part of your brand, though, isn't it?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's like your brand doesn't just show up through the logo, it does show up through your people and how and you know especially in B2B.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like logos aren't that strong.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: You could create anything uh for a logo for a B2B company.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like Nike, right?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't b people aren't connected to this, and that's not what we're trying to get.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: You need to you need to use the people, and you know, it's old school business.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: The only ever reason that people made deals and shook hands was because they knew the man or they knew the woman or they knew the person, right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it happened.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it's the same, it's the minute you can generate a relationship with some like I feel like I know you and I've never met you because of your presence on it.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's a powerful thing, and there's not enough said about that.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the minute that marketers can champion that within their businesses that that has definitely helped me on LinkedIn.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think as you say, I think people have that sense of like, oh, I already know her.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm thinking about I want to speak to a copywriter, I've seen her face, you know, and I kind of like I know a bit about who she is.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so it helps from that point of view.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: It also helps from a kind of um what I was saying about, you know, you need to alienate some people um to have a good brand.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, and I try and alienate people, and that's what I'm doing on a daily basis.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: What point I was gonna make there was um also sometimes people, because they know what I'm about, when they come to me, they've already moved a couple of steps along the process because they know about, you know, I don't want to use the these kind of like ridiculously over-jargony words and all that kind of stuff.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they come to me because of that.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it cuts down the sales process a bit.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the same thing I think for a business, if you're showing the kind of people who work there and the views they have, etc.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: etc., then again, it's kind of like you get more of a sense you might cut from the the funnel might be kind of a bit narrowed.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: So some people might be like, that's not for me.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: But the people who do come to you are further along the process of consideration and and they're more likely to want to work with you.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Very true.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: How much of work do you how much do you think has come through LinkedIn for you?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, let's percentage of um gotta be strong.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's really hard to say.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I could say like 50%.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: It is hard to say.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's intangible.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: But the problem is, it's kind of like sometimes it's 50%, but as I say, it's like a connection of a connection or something.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not a cold, they just found me on LinkedIn.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's what I said at the beginning of like they already knew of me or they already knew me, and then I I reminded them that I exist with the video kind of thing.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's that that those touch points that is the intangibility of marketing never fails to amaze me.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the and the determination people have to make it tangible and to say you can measure all of it is is incredible as well.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Boring as well.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like Brad, you know, think about how much B2C brands spend on brand campaigns.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Will they ever know who's come through that incredibly cinematic piece of content that you know added ass made?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're never gonna know.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: But it's done if they stopped, they'd know.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is that thing, isn't it?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: If they stopped, they'd find out.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And they already have the belief, which unfortunately in B2B you often don't have because you have people coming up through sales or finance or whatever who don't have that marketing belief and who want to be able to measure everything and everything's about efficiency, um, you know, uh not about a sense of like this is actually gonna have to be a bit of a punt in some ways on a brand.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because if if there was a science, if marketing was purely a science, then everybody would be successful.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because you'd know what the formula was and you would follow it.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Very true.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's human psychology, it's just ever changing and people are different, and that's the reality of it.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you're right, we alluded to this at the beginning, but this, your s your sketches have now opened up new opportunities for you, really, in in the sense of what you were saying to me before was potentially copywriting not even existing for you in the future, maybe.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's a that's a way down the down the track because it's that's my bread and butter at the moment, it's copywriting.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I do enjoy the copywriting to be fair.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of it's nice to have a variety.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: But going back to what I said to you, you know, years ago, when I thought, well, what of everything that I could do, what would I want to do?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I'd like to be an actress.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've always had that kind of performance drive.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: So now to be paid to do stupid skits, you know, that are just ridiculous, um, is amazing.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Dwindling a living.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, why are they paying me these people?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's ridiculous.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it's um so but now it's being led to paid opportunities.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Which is in on LinkedIn.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: I am slightly horrified about how horrified you are, Luke, about the fact that people are paying for you.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not horrified at all.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm and I'm I'm optimistically amazed.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um a hundred percent.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's amazing because it's uh I mean it's always the same.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I said before, 10 years, we're 10 years behind B2C um influencer marketing existing in B2C for a long, long time.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And now that it's coming over here, it's it's just for me, I mean, as a content agency, it's exciting because it means more fun work is going to be getting created down the line with talented people in in this sphere.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it must feel pretty cool that you're now, you know.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've not been doing realistically, you've not actually been doing it that long.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: No, not at all.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I think maybe that's just more a sign of the state of B2B influencers than what I'm doing.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like there are so few of us, yeah.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and particularly in on the comedy side of things, I think you've got some like kind of uh thought leader type influencers who are out there who are, you know, doing serious stuff and and and have great um you know points of view on various AI or whatever it is.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: But there aren't that many people doing funny stuff, and so I think there are you know, people are now kind of understanding that comedy and uh creators can do stuff for them, particularly on the brand side of things, and so they're looking for people, and it's kind of like for me, it's perfect.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, yeah, okay, so you want somebody who they can see that my audience is kind of sales and marketing people, it's they're quite senior people.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, you know, it's quite a nice targeted thing.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: They know who's gonna interact with my stuff, and that's what you want as a marketer who's kind of okay, it's it's just another channel, but I can kind of see who who that audience is gonna be, and I know how to reach those people.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's amazing.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Paid opportunities through LinkedIn, through content, through self-generated content as well, shows that I mean, I'm an advocate of it, you don't always need all this, right?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, luckily, because I have none of all this.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've got a camera and a ring light.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you do.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: I must have to do that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I'm saying you do, but I haven't got it.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, sometimes you do, but um, other times you definitely don't, and it doesn't take a lot to just pick up that phone and just document a bit, or to create that funny thing that you thought could be funny, but who knows?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: But just and try it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Do the thing that that feels right to you, is what I would say.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because because I think you know, sometimes people are thinking, oh, I must do something funny, or I must do something, you know, serious, or whatever it is.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you mustn't do anything, it's it's like you know, just do what you get an urge to do.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and again, it might flop, it might not, but there's no point in forcing it because you think, oh, at the moment there's a trend for this thing or or that thing.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: People are gonna feel instantly that that you're not comfortable with it if you're doing something you're not comfortable with.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've thought about it, probably do it.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you've considered it, do it.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing that's probably holding you back is fear, which is all made up anyway, right?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe fear is real.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I totally understand why people feel scared.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: But uh but that's what I was saying before.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think you just need to to really make yourself think question how valid that fear is, because you might just have this kind of big nebulous fear which is just always there and you let it kind of sit there.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: But if you actually target it, you could probably break it down and go, actually, I'm being a bit irrational here.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to be that scared.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: It is really manufactured fear from our own disbelief in what we do.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I'm hoping today has kind of inspired a lot of B2B marketers to just exit the box a bit, look at it from a fresh pair of eyes, and maybe even you know, put forward that idea that they've been nervous to to the team or anything like that.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean again, it's just why not?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like it's so much more fun to do that.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: If anything else making the job a little bit more colourful, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Heather, thank you so much for coming on today.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.