Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / Mastering the Art of Authentic Leadership with Farshida Zafar | Episode 104

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Mastering the Art of Authentic Leadership with Farshida Zafar | Episode 104 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:00
Yeah, if you feel comfortable, you know, if you feel like you
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can be your authentic self, I think.
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Yeah. I think then, you know, swearing
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could be associated with some type of verbal dexterity, wider
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vocabulary and, you know, positive personality traits.
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You know, I think that's where swearing and intelligence
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combines and the sense of belonging.
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Yeah. If I didn't feel comfortable
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with my team, I would not do it, you know, so, So I think yeah,
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it it does give you a sense of belonging.
0:44
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
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My name is Derek Anukas, and on this podcast I give the women
0:50
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
0:54
each other. Join me on a journey into the
0:57
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
1:02
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
1:06
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
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Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
1:19
Disrupting Tech and thank you for listening to episode 104.
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My guest today is Farshida Zafar.
1:27
Farshida is the director of the Erosion Center for
1:29
Entrepreneurship and a proud Afghani refugee.
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She shares how she mastered the art of authenticity on her way
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to the top of one of the leading Centers for entrepreneurship in
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the world. Among the many topics that we
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talk about is how to fit in without losing your authenticity
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as a woman, the challenges of hiring for merit when you want
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to be at the top of your game, and the power of authentic
1:56
leadership when building and managing A-Team.
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Now, when you interview Farshida Zafar, one thing is for sure,
2:03
you are in for some very strong opinions and I can promise you
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this episode does not disappoint.
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It starts right at the first question of the interview, when
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I ask her how she got into her current position.
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Her answer? Everything except luck.
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The result is an hour long episode with many lessons for
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both women who want to find their way to the top while
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remaining authentic and for men who want to support them.
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And all the way at the end of the episode for Sheeda unveils
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how swearing, intelligence and belonging relate to each other.
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So when you're ready to listen and learn how you can master the
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art of authenticity, please welcome to women disrupting
2:46
Tech. Farshida Zafar.
2:48
Farshida Zafar, welcome to Women Disrupting tech.
2:51
It's an honor to have you. Tell me, how did you get into
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your current position at Eosmith Center for Entrepreneurship?
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Yes, well that's a good question.
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In my current position I got here through hard work,
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dedication, commitment, maybe everything besides luck.
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I don't like the word luck, especially when women are asked.
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How did you get to your position?
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And they often say, well, I was lucky.
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No, you were not lucky. You worked really hard and you
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were dedicated and you put all your effort and your energy into
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it. So I think all of it without
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luck and it was actually fairly simple.
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I was stuck in Mexico when I had COVID in 2021 and I was browsing
3:35
around because my my term of ending my then position as the
3:41
director and founder of Erasmus X was coming to an end.
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When I founded Erasmus, XI had mentioned already that I would
3:48
do it for three years and then move on.
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And in June 2022, my three years would be up.
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So I was kind of browsing around on on LinkedIn and saw the
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position open. But I knew the former director
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and I was kind of surprised that he was gone.
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And then didn't pay any attention to it until one of my
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friends actually texted me and said, hey, have you seen this
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position? And it's got your name written
4:18
all over it. And at first I was like, I don't
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know, I'm kind of liking what I do right now.
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And, you know, I get to work in innovation.
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I get to do a lot of tech projects.
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It's really fun because you know, it was still at the
4:32
university and the university is not, let's just say the adoption
4:36
level is not that high. Not at the University of Tech.
4:41
I know, right? Well, at least not a social
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science and humanities university.
4:45
But then, you know, that same friend, he was quite persistent
4:51
and he actually told me, well, why don't you have a call with
4:54
the CEO from the holding company and then and then decide,
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because I was kind of like, no, no, no, I'm good.
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Had a phone call. Didn't really feel like this was
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my job after that phone call. So I also at first declined for
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the position. Why did you feel it wasn't your
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position? Let's just say because I don't
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want to get into personal dynamics, but let's just say
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that what I was hearing on the other side of the phone wasn't
5:25
as attractive or interesting. You know, eventually had a
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couple more talks with the CEO from the holding, but also with
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the team. And actually the team really
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convinced me to to join. So that's how I joined.
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OK, Yeah. So it was not the, the, the,
5:44
let's say the bureaucracy around it, but the team that you were
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going to work with. Yes, yes.
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And I have to say that at that moment in time, you know, when I
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was looking at the website, I saw pictures of people on the
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website and I didn't feel like I would belong.
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You know what I mean? It was very much a heterogeneous
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or no homogeneous group of people presented on the website.
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And I don't know, it just felt like, no, that I don't, I don't
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feel like that's my, my world, my space.
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Until I met the team. And then I saw a completely
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different reflection of the people who were actually working
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in the company. Although I knew a few people
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from the team already before I joined, seeing the full team was
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a completely different story. Yeah.
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And they kind of convinced me to join.
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OK, so am I hearing you say that the pictures on the website
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didn't tell the whole story then?
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Was the team bigger than what you saw on the website?
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The team was bigger, the team was more diverse.
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The team had and still has over 50% of the people are from
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outside of the Netherlands. So the diversity that I saw on
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the website back in the day compared to the actual diversity
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that I found in the team, it was two different worlds, OK?
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And to me, that's one of the important things.
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You know, I want to be in a team where I feel I can make a
7:08
difference, where I feel I can add value, but I also want to
7:11
feel like I belong there. Right.
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And within Harassment 6, I handpicked my team.
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So it was very different because when you enter a new team,
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you're like a new character on a show that's been running for 20
7:24
seasons. And you're trying to please the
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audience. You're trying to please the the
7:29
cast, you're trying to please the crew.
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It's a different thing. Yeah.
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So we'll get back into picking a team in a bit.
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So just for context, what does Erosion Center for University
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for Entrepreneurship do? Yeah.
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So what we do is actually we do three things right.
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So our main topic is entrepreneurship and
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entrepreneurial. Entrepreneurial means that, you
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know, I see a big difference. You know, a lot of Centers for
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entrepreneurship, they focus on start-ups and scale ups and they
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focus on venture building and they focus on, you know, helping
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start-ups from from start to finish.
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I think the emphasis within ECE is more on the entrepreneurial
8:09
behaviors and on the entrepreneurial competencies and
8:12
innovation because we actually believe and I really believe
8:16
that that entrepreneurial behavior and an entrepreneurial
8:19
mindset is a prerequisite to be innovative.
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Now if you have a passive mindset and you're not action
8:24
oriented and you don't see the opportunities, then it's really
8:28
hard to be really innovative and push for something new, right?
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So our main topic is entrepreneurship and innovation.
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And what we do is we do three things.
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We actually apply scientific knowledge and translate
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scientific knowledge into practical tools and frameworks.
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We also do our own research, but it's not, you know, the four
8:52
year PhD research. It's sector specific research.
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It's domain specific research, usually with ties within either
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entrepreneurship, either innovation or ecosystems.
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And from that body of knowledge, so our research base, we create
9:08
interventions, we create training programs, we do a lot
9:11
of capacity rebuilding, and we build ecosystems.
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And with that, I mean that, you know, we look at our entire
9:18
field as interconnected ecosystems where everybody has a
9:21
role to play. And so we kind of bring everyone
9:25
together, we create new communities, we keep them alive
9:29
and we actively participate in these communities.
9:32
And we also connect people on a very individual level.
9:35
So, you know, if you look at our ecosystems, it could be micro
9:38
level, Mesa level or macro level where we, you know, put
9:42
organizations together or put companies together or even in
9:47
some, some projects, we bring in different countries into the
9:50
programs. And although we're Rotterdam
9:52
based, our slogan is always global reach, local impact.
9:56
We do a lot of work in Africa. And you know, in Africa, I
10:00
always, I always like to say Africa is not a country, it's a
10:03
continent. Yeah, so, but we've done
10:06
projects across I think 15 nations thus far.
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We have partners in Southeast Asia.
10:12
We have done work in the MENA region and we have a huge
10:17
extended network in Europe. So although we're a small
10:21
company in Rotterdam, we have a global reach and are also
10:25
globally recognized as a Center for entrepreneurship.
10:28
So that's what we do in a nutshell.
10:30
OK, so you're not originally from the Netherlands, you're
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Afghan? Yes, you're a refugee, yes.
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So how does that background and the experience that you had,
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because you came to the Netherlands when I think when
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you're quite young, how has that helped you shape your current
10:50
role and your approach to to things?
10:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I would first like to
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start that I'm really proud of my Afghani roots.
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I was born in Kabul and yes, we came to the Netherlands as
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refugees and my, my upbringing, but also the journey to the
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West. Well, first of all, it's made me
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very aware of my environment. You know, it's very different.
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I mean, the Netherlands, have you seen a mountain here?
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Whereas in Afghanistan you have a lot of mountains, right?
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Yeah, there's no flat thing, no flat surface, I think there.
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Well, after 40 years of war, who knows?
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Yeah. Jokes aside, the environment,
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I've been very, very aware of my environment, but also very aware
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of the cultural differences and the new perspectives.
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And you know, all these, all the things that I've been through,
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my experience, it has kind of enabled me to be very adaptive,
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creative, but also inventive because if you grow up not
11:50
having a lot, your imagination and your creativity are the
11:54
things that keep you going. So you, you kind of create
11:57
things out of nothing, right? So, and I think it also made me
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highly adaptive in terms of changing circumstances.
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Although it scares me for a moment, it doesn't paralyze me
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because I know things will work out.
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And if it doesn't work out this way, then we'll find another
12:13
way, you know, So, but also feeling very comfortable
12:16
wherever I go. To give you an example, I was
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just in Mozambique a couple of weeks ago.
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And you adapt, you adapt to the people, you adapt to the
12:24
culture, you adapt to the weather, which was great, you
12:28
know. So it's, I think it made me a
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richer person, if that makes sense.
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Yeah, to me it does it Also what I heard you say is that it makes
12:40
it, yeah, it makes it easier to adapt to circumstances, but also
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to, let's say, shape circumstances in a way that
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works for you. Absolutely.
12:52
So how has it shaped your views on having diverse people around
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you, diverse team? Because you said earlier on that
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initially you weren't really attracted to do your current job
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because of the pictures on the website.
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And he met a team which was way more diverse than you thought.
13:10
And then you all of a sudden felt like, OK, I belong here.
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So how does your background help you do that?
13:20
Yeah. Well, you know, I have to be
13:22
honest that I think for the first part of my life here in
13:26
the Netherlands, I really tried my hardest to be as Dutch as
13:30
possible, to meet expectations of others also in in corporate
13:34
life, right, in the companies I worked or even within academia.
13:38
And I was trying to be this person that I was not because,
13:42
you know, ultimately I was never Dutch enough.
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And at the same time, I'm never African enough.
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So I've learned how to integrate the different identities of
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being a woman and being Dutch and being Afghan without losing
13:54
the cultural values from my Afghani roots, the values of
13:58
community and collectiveness, which I like to portray in my
14:02
leadership approach where I prioritize the team cohesion, a
14:05
shared purpose over the individual achievements.
14:08
I think my Afghani roots also emphasize on honor and integrity
14:13
that shapes how I make decisions always, you know, considering
14:16
the impact on the organization's reputation, the well-being of my
14:20
team, the well-being of everyone involved.
14:22
Pride is something that, you know, I bring in my role,
14:26
encouraging excellence and dedication from everyone in the
14:29
team. You know, all these values, a
14:31
lot of people think that these are just abstract concepts, but
14:34
they actually manifest in daily practices like collaborative
14:37
decision making or transparent communication and commitment to
14:41
supporting the team members growth while honoring their
14:44
contributions. Right.
14:46
And when I think because your question was not about how, how
14:50
does my Afghan roots influence that, but more about, you know,
14:55
the diversity in the team. But I think from my experience
14:59
living between the cultures, you know, it has shaped my
15:04
perspective on diversity. Having that experience first
15:07
hand of trying to fit in and at the same time maintaining my
15:11
identity, I think I've developed an understanding of the
15:15
importance of integration rather than assimilation.
15:20
And if I look at. What's the difference between
15:22
the two? Well, how do I explain that?
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I think I wouldn't know the correct dictionary explanation,
15:32
but for me it feels like, you know, you integrate in a
15:35
society, but you can still be you.
15:37
You can still keep your identity, you can still value
15:40
your traditions and your culture.
15:42
And, you know, you can still be proud of where you come from,
15:45
whereas assimilation feels like, you know, you're no longer part
15:51
of your heritage, no longer part of your roots.
15:54
You're something different. You're in it, you know, So
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you're, you know, for, to illustrate that for me, a
16:00
simulation would be that I would forget about the fact that I'm
16:04
an Afghani woman, that I was born in Kabul, that I take pride
16:08
in, in kites, that I love kabuli kebab, that I love my rice
16:12
making. You know, assimilation to me
16:14
would be that I would become 100% Dutch, which is not wrong,
16:19
but it's not for me. So I think that that would be
16:23
and. It is not you.
16:25
And it is not me, no. So was there a specific moment
16:29
that sort of make you realize like, because initially you try
16:33
to fit in really well, almost to the point of assimilating
16:37
yourself, what happened that you found out this is maybe not how
16:44
I should do approach things? When I became my authentic self,
16:48
there was a moment in time when, you know, so I grew up in the
16:52
Netherlands, not in extreme wealth.
16:54
I mean, compared to a lot of people, I still grew up
16:57
privileged because at least I had a house and I had food,
17:00
right? But I kind of grew up in
17:02
different circumstances. Let me just put it like that.
17:05
And one of the things, you know, that represents where I come
17:08
from are my sneakers. Because, you know, where I come
17:11
from, everyone was wearing sneakers.
17:13
And I still remember being at a job not saying where.
17:17
And someone told me that a woman in my position couldn't wear
17:20
sneakers to work. Now, up until that point, you
17:26
know, whenever people would use some microaggressions or some
17:31
language I didn't like, I would just let it slide.
17:34
And you know, I was like, well, whatever it says more about you
17:37
than it says about me. Go.
17:39
And, you know, but I don't know what, what flipped, but I, I
17:44
just, I was just fed up. I was like, no, this is enough,
17:48
you know, and I realized that I was getting these type of
17:53
comments because I was trying to be someone that I'm not.
17:57
And that, and I think it was that day that I decided enough
18:01
is enough. I am going to be authentically
18:05
myself. And you know, I don't care what
18:09
that makes me, whether that makes me half Afghani, half
18:12
Dutch, 100% Dutch, 100% of Gandhi.
18:16
I don't care anymore. I'm just going to be for Shida
18:18
and I'm going to be wearing my sneakers.
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And if you don't like it, don't look at my feet.
18:22
Yeah, or don't hire me. Or don't hire me, right.
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So I think, I think that was the moment in my career and I was
18:30
like, no, I'm done. You know, I'm done.
18:34
I even heard I've had far worse experiences.
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I mean, there was a moment where I was working in a firm and one
18:45
of the partners came to me and he, he basically said, Oh my
18:49
gosh, you're really good at what you do, Really amazing.
18:54
It's just a shame of your last name because you'll never make
18:57
it to partner. And, you know, that same day I
19:01
packed up my stuff and I'm like, I'm out, you know, I don't care.
19:06
So what if that paycheck doesn't come?
19:08
I don't care. You go figure it out.
19:11
I'm done. I'm leaving.
19:12
So and I left. I quit my job and I left.
19:15
And, you know, and financially, probably not a good decision,
19:20
but it kept my integrity intact because, you know, there comes a
19:26
moment in life where you just can't take it anymore.
19:29
Yeah, we're done with the, with the insults, with the.
19:34
Yeah. And, and sometimes I think, you
19:37
know, I don't want to be, I don't want to come across like
19:39
someone who hates guys because I don't, you know, But I think a
19:45
lot of people are not aware of, you know, the the impact of
19:48
words and how some people think that certain things are funny
19:53
when they're actually very aggressive.
19:56
Just because you laugh doesn't mean it's funny, right?
19:59
And I think. Now that's something that that I
20:02
actually learned as part of the interviews that I did.
20:07
I remember talking to Ribbon Brava and he mentioned something
20:11
that he experienced in a in a boardroom with pain
20:15
discrimination where he was told I hate you Suriname guys.
20:21
Wow. And I.
20:22
Was I, well, I, I was so shocked that I started laughing because
20:29
I was like, OK, this can't be happening.
20:32
But at that moment I was like, OK, why?
20:36
I realized when, why am, am I laughing about it?
20:40
And so I told him and he said, yeah, I will.
20:44
I the same response. But it doesn't mean the fact
20:47
that you're totally overwhelmed by something that you
20:51
experience, that you start laughing.
20:55
It's just, yeah, it's it's just a reaction.
20:58
It doesn't tell anything about if it's funny, yes or no.
21:02
No, but. On the other hand, it is people
21:06
think like, oh, he's laughing about it, so it is.
21:08
It's OK. Yeah, but that, Oh my goodness,
21:11
that is a shocker, though. Say such a thing.
21:15
What? What?
21:16
This was for context, this was in the boardroom of a football
21:19
club, which doesn't excuse the behaviour but does give it a bit
21:24
of context I think because at least in the 1990s still there
21:29
was a lot of racism in football. Well, I think there's still a
21:33
lot of racism in football, you know, but this is just.
21:37
Yeah, they're not not as outspoken as this, this.
21:41
This is ridiculous. Oh my goodness.
21:45
Wow. So, but it it does, it sort of
21:49
provides a bridge to my next question.
21:52
I was wondering you're trying to build an organization that is a
21:56
team that is inclusive. I would say, yeah.
22:01
What's your definition of an inclusive organization?
22:05
Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a very good question.
22:09
I think for me, that would mean that you're building an
22:12
organization where people from all backgrounds feel valued for,
22:16
you know, their unique perspectives and and
22:18
contributions. You know, if, if you would look
22:20
into research and what does research say about that?
22:24
You know, I think there's a lot to say about what what is that,
22:28
you know, an inclusive organization.
22:30
But if we go down to a human level and me from, you know, the
22:33
director side, what, what does that mean to me?
22:37
I think an inclusive organization is where, you know,
22:42
the environment is supportive and respectful and collaborative
22:45
and where everyone is encouraged to participate and to
22:50
contribute. And at the same time, that
22:52
requires leadership, but also others in the team to eliminate
22:56
barriers, to eliminate discrimination, to eliminate the
22:59
intolerance. And I think when we talk about
23:04
inclusion within organizations, that's where I think, you know,
23:08
organizations that actually practice where different groups
23:12
or individuals have different backgrounds are culturally and
23:16
socially accepted and welcomed and where people feel respected
23:20
and value for valued for who they are as an individual or as
23:24
a group. So I think that is what I would
23:27
define as an inclusive organization and I think.
23:32
What makes it difficult to execute on that, or what makes
23:35
it easy for you to execute on it that makes it difficult, maybe
23:40
difficult for other organizations?
23:43
Well, I think let me just start with your first questions.
23:46
What makes it difficult for organizations to to do that?
23:50
I think a lot of organizations struggle to embed inclusion in a
23:55
way I think, I'm not sure, but my assumption is that there's
24:01
some kind of a pipeline problem, or at least they say that
24:05
there's a pipeline problem. And I think that there's more of
24:08
a systemic issue than a talent scarcity or and you know, and
24:12
that a lot of unconscious biases influence hiring and promotion
24:15
practices leading to a very homogeneous workforce.
24:21
And although I see, you know, I see that when companies start,
24:26
they start with a focus on diversity, but then they don't
24:31
look into the inclusion part. That is a piece of the puzzle.
24:35
So meaning that they might achieve numerical diversity
24:41
without actually creating a culture where everyone truly
24:44
belongs. And I think from, from my
24:47
background, you know, in, in changing organizational
24:50
cultures, it requires more than policies, You know, it requires
24:54
more than a quote or a quotum or whatnot.
24:58
It actually needs committed leadership and consistent
25:01
practices that demonstrate the value of inclusion.
25:03
And I think a lot of companies struggle with that because
25:06
they're just looking at diversity, as in, OK, half of
25:11
our workforce has to be woman. OK, But what does that mean?
25:15
Does that also mean that you're gonna pay them equally?
25:17
Does that also mean you're gonna hire women with a non Western
25:21
background? Does that also mean that you're
25:23
gonna hire people who identify themselves as women?
25:26
What does that mean? And does that mean that if two
25:32
women are competing for the same job, what are you then going to
25:37
give them as a leverage over the other?
25:40
So what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything.
25:42
So I think when you look at those type of numerical KPIs, it
25:46
doesn't mean anything. You know, great, great.
25:49
You have a female. You have a female in on C level.
25:52
Good for you. What does that mean?
25:56
What does that mean for the next woman in line?
25:58
What does that mean for the management?
26:00
What does that mean? So how can you make inclusion?
26:05
Can you make inclusion measurable?
26:08
What a good question. I did not.
26:12
I did not account for this question to be honest.
26:16
OK, you make it measurable. I think you would think you
26:21
would need to build some metrics around what is the company
26:24
culture would want to build. So for example, when I look into
26:31
inclusion for my company, I would say communication is one
26:37
of the things that is very important because again, half of
26:40
my team is not from the Netherlands.
26:43
That means that language is always going to be an issue,
26:47
which also means that you know, the way we communicate to each
26:51
other, it needs to be transparent.
26:53
But if Dutch is not your native language, you're going to lose
26:56
some nuances. If English is not your native
26:59
language, you're going to lose some nuances.
27:02
So I think you can then from your metric inclusion, if you
27:09
build up some categories in, you know, collaboration or
27:13
communication or you know, these sub tasks or sub components
27:17
categories. And if you measure how well
27:20
that's going now and measure how well it's going after, then I
27:25
think you can do that. But I think there's also a lot
27:29
of, you know, research already done into what, you know, how
27:35
inclusive teams, for example, how they perform better.
27:39
So you know, there's there's ample research in in how
27:46
inclusive teams are actually ramping up revenue, you know,
27:52
things like that. So I think there is already a
27:57
lot done. I'm, I'm trying to think because
28:00
I did do some research into this a while back and I'm trying to
28:04
think where did I leave it? What was, what was the outcome
28:08
of the research? Because there's, you know,
28:10
there, there are some really good companies that have done
28:13
research on this. So for example, I know that
28:15
McKinsey did a really big research on.
28:18
Yeah, McKinsey and Deloitte do do research.
28:20
A. Lot on this, let me let me twist
28:23
the question a bit. How?
28:24
How do you create? What do you gives A-Team sense
28:30
of belonging? Because you talked about
28:32
language. If you have many people from
28:35
many different backgrounds, most of which don't have Dutch as a
28:39
native language or English as a native language, communications
28:43
becomes important in two parts. At least that's one I'm hearing
28:46
you say 1 is the. The obvious part is that you
28:49
might misunderstand, but it's also more subtle, I think, in
28:53
terms of the same words. Do not the same mean the same
28:57
things to everyone? And how do you convert?
29:02
How do you ensure that you have the circumstances that people
29:06
really listen to each other? That's almost asking me if
29:09
there's like such a thing as an optimal diversity or something
29:13
like that. I think the, I think sense of
29:16
belonging is, you know, it's a deeper foundation for all human
29:20
beings. And we all want to belong.
29:22
We all want to fit in. That's why we have so many
29:24
groups and cliques and whatnot, right?
29:28
And I think when you look at it from an organizational
29:32
perspective, you know, leadership can do a lot to make
29:36
people feel like they belong. So for example, if you know that
29:42
you have silent voices in your, in your team, people that are
29:45
not very outspoken and more introverted as, as, as
29:51
management, you can implement a really, really simple rule.
29:55
Introverted people ask their questions first.
29:57
So the extroverts need 5 minutes, the introvert maybe
29:59
needs 10. So what you know so and then.
30:02
But by doing that, you actually create a space where they can
30:05
also speak up, where they where their contributions matter,
30:08
where their ideas matter, where their feedback matters.
30:12
And where they feel hurt. And where they feel hurt, where
30:15
they feel seen. You know, I often experience
30:18
that a lot of these really small things that you change where you
30:22
said, how you communicate, the jokes you make, you know, from a
30:26
leadership perspective, but also, you know, in meetings who
30:30
gets to talk. So one of the, I think my team
30:33
is not going to like this very much, but so we do monthly
30:37
updates, right? Monthly updates and where we sit
30:41
down with the entire team and we the you know, we reflect on the
30:45
month before and we forecast to the month ahead of us.
30:49
I rarely talk during these meetings.
30:53
I always let the team talk. Whereas traditionally people
30:58
might think, OK, leadership wants to talk.
31:00
I know what, what to say. That's not the issue.
31:04
I, you know, I know my numbers and me running a business is a
31:07
numbers game. I know the projects, maybe not
31:10
in full detail, but you know, we're not going to go into full
31:13
detail. So I know all of this, but by
31:16
actually giving people to take credit for what they're doing,
31:20
to present to the rest of the team what they've achieved,
31:24
whether they're as extroverted as I am or introverted as anyone
31:28
else, it creates the space where they can contribute.
31:32
It creates a space where they can take a moment of shine and
31:35
take a moment of pride in what they're doing.
31:38
And not a lot of leaders do that because because why?
31:43
Because their egos are in the way.
31:44
Maybe I don't know, but I feel, you know, if you want to create
31:48
an environment where everyone is contributing, you should also
31:53
give them the opportunity to do that.
31:55
You know, and I do crazy stuff like we have plants at the
31:59
office. I think about a month ago, I was
32:02
like elbow deep in dirt taking care of the plants.
32:05
And I had a question from from one of the guys, not for my
32:09
team, but one of the guys in our in our building.
32:12
And he saw me walk towards the sink to wash my hands.
32:15
And he was like, but aren't you the hand?
32:20
I'm like, yeah. And he's like, what are you
32:21
doing? I'm like, well, I was just doing
32:23
some plants. He was like, but can't you have
32:26
your people do that? Like, well, no, you know, and,
32:30
and it's, I explained to him that in, in specific parts of
32:35
the world, for example, in Japan, CE OS and people of
32:38
leadership are made to do these chores to keep them humble.
32:41
You know, so I do these things as well to keep myself humble,
32:44
you know, so, and it's also setting an example for my team.
32:47
You know, you don't need that big ego.
32:49
We have enough of those. Yeah.
32:51
They're actually messing up our world.
32:53
I wanted to say a different world in Word, but like, you
32:57
know, those big egos are messing up our world.
32:59
But you know, just be you. And I think me being me shows my
33:04
team they can be themselves and they don't have to put on a
33:07
mask. They don't have to sugarcoat
33:09
things. They can be their authentic
33:11
self. And I think once you do that and
33:14
you embrace the fact that you have people from different
33:17
countries sometimes have a hard time communicating with each
33:21
other because you miss the nuances, you know, it makes your
33:27
life so much more fun because you learn a lot.
33:30
And one of the things that I've told, you know, several people
33:33
on my team is that, listen, none of us are native Dutch or native
33:38
English. So when we communicate, we are
33:42
going to lose some nuances. So instead of reacting, maybe
33:46
ask questions. What is it that you exactly
33:49
mean? You said this and this.
33:51
What is the context? You know, how can we help?
33:55
What am I missing here? You know, So by being more
33:57
inquisitive and curious and actually asking in your
34:02
communication style, it also makes you feel that OK, being
34:06
taken serious and ask this, there's something in the
34:09
communication that is not flowing and we're going to
34:12
figure out why it's not flowing. So yes, it takes a bit more
34:16
time, but that's fine. OK, you said you, you built your
34:21
team yourself, you hang picked your team in the previous job
34:25
and did you also make changes in the in the current team that
34:31
you're leading? In the current team, well, the
34:34
current team is quite young. I mean, I'm the oldest.
34:37
According to my passport, I'm now 47, which is not true
34:41
because I'm actually 46 but OK. And it's also not true because
34:45
I'm forever 25 and. To say 29 with so many years of
34:51
experience. Asian jeans, Yeah, What was I
34:54
saying? In the current team, I have a
34:59
very stable team. Of course some people, you know,
35:04
while I was here, a lot of people that joined the team are
35:06
quite young. So for some it's an entry level
35:10
job and then they move on and some of us have been around,
35:13
well, some of the team have been around more than I have and
35:17
that's a very stable team. It's very rock solid.
35:20
So no, I didn't really make huge changes in the team apart from
35:26
one thing that is that we nowadays we have a new financial
35:31
manager who's a woman and we've never had a female finance
35:34
manager in the past. OK.
35:36
So that's I think that's the only only difference.
35:39
But what is the? Difference that you see as a
35:41
result? Just curious.
35:42
Well, first of all, she scares me cuz she's very, She is so
35:49
detailed and accurate and strict.
35:52
And I mean, she is amazing. I love working with with her.
35:57
She is really, really amazing. And you know, when she came in,
36:02
she had a lot of work to do when she works extremely fast and
36:06
she's very conscious of the things that she does.
36:09
What I like about her is that she doesn't hold back what she
36:17
thinks, which is great because I don't want a sugar coated Excel.
36:21
I just want you to tell me this is what's going on and this is
36:24
what we need to do. And so she's very good at that,
36:26
and I think her conciseness and the level of detail is a huge
36:34
difference from what we had in the past.
36:36
You started a previous guy then, I assume?
36:41
Yeah. Well, we had an interim CFO for
36:44
a while and he was amazing. I'm not going to lie, he was a
36:48
lovely guy. He did a really well job.
36:51
But I think my current managers level of detail is far beyond
36:55
what he could do. And you know what I also really
36:59
appreciate about our new finance managers?
37:01
She makes my life easy by just giving me dashboards and graphs
37:05
and. So I was wondering more, more,
37:08
let's say less tangible, less KPI driven maybe, but what?
37:12
What changes have you seen in team performance over the past
37:16
three years? Because she came on board I
37:18
think 3 years ago. Yeah, next month I'll be here
37:23
three years. What I've seen in terms of
37:27
changes, I think I see more of the people now.
37:33
So my right hand is a is a guy, Italian guy, incredibly
37:39
talented, incredibly intelligent.
37:42
But I always felt like he was a little too hard on himself, a
37:48
little too result driven and sometimes maybe not showing
37:56
enough of him as a person. I've seen that change and we
38:00
have more courageous conversations, which means that,
38:04
you know, so for example, again with my right hand guy, he and I
38:07
have an agreement that he and I can rant to each other, give
38:11
each other the brutal facts, be 100% true to each other.
38:15
And you know, if he wants to curse me out, he is allowed to
38:19
do so. But we do that in a confined
38:22
space where it's the two of us and we can just, you know, so we
38:26
have a deal like that together, which also means that the way he
38:30
and I communicate is on a very high level.
38:34
Often I just need one look and he knows and the other way
38:38
around, you know, so that that's, that's a huge change.
38:43
I've seen the team mature. In.
38:46
Terms in in the sense that they now, you know, they ask the
38:51
right questions, they ask the critical questions, they dare to
38:54
ask the critical questions, they even dare to ask me like, why
38:59
are you doing that? Like, let me give you an
39:02
example. We had a team session a while
39:04
back and I was kind of conflicted because I had my
39:07
story ready in my head, what I wanted to say to the team.
39:11
And then the facilitator, who is also a really, really wonderful
39:15
network partner, he actually said, no, Farah, you need to be
39:19
vulnerable. You need to be honest and you
39:20
need to tell the real story. And, you know, you don't need to
39:23
hide behind facts and figures. Just make it personal.
39:28
And, you know, it was very conflicted.
39:31
So right before the session, I went to my CEO and I asked her,
39:36
I'm like, Oh my gosh, I don't know what to say.
39:38
And she's like, let's just relax and, you know, it'll be fine.
39:41
And you know what you're going to say.
39:42
And and then I decided, OK, you know what?
39:44
I'm just going to stick to the script.
39:46
I'm going to say what I need to say.
39:48
And then, you know, we can get on.
39:49
But then I sit in front of my team and I looked at them and I
39:53
felt like, no, I need to tell the personal story.
39:57
I need to tell them that, you know, I am also experiencing a
40:01
bit of stress that I'm kind of frustrated with some things.
40:03
And, you know, I just need to fess up and confess.
40:06
And one of my team members, she, you know, but once I did that,
40:11
everyone else, of course, also shared what they were feeling.
40:16
And one of my team members in front of everyone, she said.
40:19
Well, when you started fire. I was really like, I want you to
40:22
shut up now. You need to shut up now.
40:25
No one wants to hear this. No one needs to hear this.
40:27
You know, you need to be the fairness leader and da, da, da.
40:32
But it opened up a space where everyone could actually express
40:36
how they feel where they are. You know, it's a, it's a
40:38
courageous conversation to have with each other.
40:41
And I don't think that would have been possible 2-3 years
40:44
ago. I've seen there's.
40:45
There's much more trust, if I hear you correctly.
40:48
There's much more sense of belonging, which also creates
40:53
trust. I would say people feel
40:55
empowered to be themselves and to also voice their opinions,
41:00
even though what they are saying is not politically correct or
41:04
may not perceive to be a search. How does that trickle through
41:08
in? Let's say if you talk to people,
41:12
do you ask how satisfied are you with your job?
41:15
Or do you have? Some sort of?
41:16
Employee. Yes, we do.
41:19
We have a people culture monitor that we put out every six months
41:25
just to gauge where we are, but also to understand what can we
41:28
do better. So, and I think from our last
41:32
survey, we had a eight out of 10/8 point, something out of 10
41:37
as a result coming back. And what we always do is after
41:40
these people culture monitor. So the way you know, the way we
41:43
function as a team, we have a lot of moments in in time where
41:49
we're either sharing knowledge, so someone from the team brings
41:52
in some knowledge, or we get a third party member to come in
41:55
and bring in some new knowledge so that we keep on learning.
41:58
But we also have dedicated spaces where we're really
42:01
focusing on professional development for the team.
42:03
And next to that, that we have a personal career budget for
42:06
people who want to, you know, really invest into themselves
42:09
and take up a course or go to a conference or whatnot.
42:14
But in all these moments of time, you know, these are not
42:18
just we think this is a good topic or this should be fun.
42:22
No, we really look into the people in culture monitor, see
42:25
what comes out of that and build our activities around it so that
42:29
we're not just, you know, doing something for the sake of doing
42:32
something. And I think that's, I think,
42:34
well, our next people culture monitor will be sent out, I
42:37
think in a week or so. OK.
42:39
So I'm curious to see where we stand now.
42:43
But yeah, no, for us, it's it's, you know, it's serious.
42:45
And especially when you work with a lot of people from
42:49
different cultures, you know, something as simple as awesome
42:52
could have 20 definitions. So it's good to really, really,
42:57
you know, engage with the team and really understand, you know,
43:00
how they see things and, and what they think is important.
43:03
Because at the end of the day, I really believe that a good
43:08
company is all about people. It's not about the numbers, it's
43:12
not about the product, it's about the people.
43:14
Yeah. So on, on that point, how
43:17
there's there's that say our friend across Ocean is a big fan
43:24
of hiring for merit, hiring the best person for a job.
43:29
What is wrong with that or what, how?
43:32
How can we make it work actually as it's intended to work that
43:37
you really hire the the best person regardless of who that
43:40
is? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:43
Hiring the best person for the job, Well, wow.
43:48
Well, doesn't that often contain a a bias of what best means?
43:55
And when you talk about the concept of the best person for a
43:59
job, as I mentioned, it contains a hidden bias of what best
44:02
means, but it also looks the systemic barriers that prevent
44:06
equal opportunity. And when a team lacks A
44:10
diversity, unconscious biases, they influence hiring decisions
44:14
and they perpetuate that homogeneity rather than truly
44:18
finding the best talent, right? So if you look at the data, you
44:22
know diverse organizations are inherently happier, more
44:25
productive, more competitive. And that suggests that
44:29
considering diversity in hiring, hiring actually helps find truly
44:32
effective team members. So when you ask the question,
44:37
you know, what's wrong with hiring the best person for the
44:40
job? Well, where to start?
44:42
It actually overlooks how excellence is culturally
44:46
defined. You know, there's a researcher
44:49
at Harvard, I think her name was Iris Bonnet, I think.
44:55
And she showed that if you look at unstructured, higher
44:58
unstructured hiring process that they amplify the unconscious
45:02
biases about what best looks like.
45:05
So, and I think there was one test that they did where and
45:09
they were looking into orchestras and when they, the
45:13
orchestras implemented the blind auditions, the rate of women
45:17
hired increased dramatically. And that kind of proves that our
45:22
perception best is really influenced by irrelevant
45:27
factors. There's another research done by
45:32
what's his name again, Scott Page, I think it was.
45:35
And he does research that, you know that demonstrate that in in
45:39
complex problem solving environments, cognitive
45:43
diversity often outperforms individual abilities.
45:46
So his diversity Trump's ability theorem actually shows
45:50
mathematically that a diverse group with different
45:53
perspectives, interpretations and heuristic consistent
45:56
consistent consistently outperforms the homogeneous
46:01
groups of the best individuals, right.
46:05
So if we make it very practical, if you look at, for example,
46:10
financial industry and, you know, homogeneous teams of best
46:16
analysts, he failed to predict the 2008 financial crisis.
46:23
Whereas, you know, you had the team at Goldman Sachs that was
46:26
really a more diverse team. They raised the early warnings.
46:30
So the uniformity of thought among the best candidates, it
46:36
creates A collective blind spot, you know, So you know, and
46:41
again, what is the best, you know, if you look at the best
46:44
in, in here in the West, and it might be completely different
46:48
from what is considered the best in, in Asia or considered the
46:51
best in Africa or considered the best in Latin America.
46:54
So, you know, and if you have a diverse team and you create the
46:59
conditions that they can out they can perform at their best,
47:03
then, you know, it's a it's a different story.
47:07
So I think on paper, people always make out to look the best
47:14
and present themselves as the best.
47:15
Doesn't mean anything And and and unconscious biases.
47:19
Yeah, well, you know, I wouldn't have had this bot job if.
47:24
Yeah, if you pull out your own biases.
47:28
I'm telling you, I am certainly not the best, but I am good at
47:32
what I do. Yeah.
47:35
So on that point, I read a quote of you.
47:38
If I can do it, everyone can. Where did you read?
47:43
That I have to check the source, but I think it was an interview
47:49
that you did. I don't know.
47:51
I found it. It wasn't one of the quotes that
47:53
I found when doing research for the episode online.
47:57
Yeah. Anyway, I, I was wondering
48:01
because there's, I spoke to a number of people now who are
48:05
saying, well, that's sort of maybe not really true because
48:11
what made you able to do it, to do what you did is not something
48:17
everyone can just do. And that doesn't have to do with
48:21
luck, but it has to do with ability.
48:23
You have certain backgrounds, certain skill sets that gives
48:27
you the ability to execute on certain jobs.
48:30
So what? What would you say in response
48:33
to convince me that yes, if you can do it, everyone can?
48:37
Wow. Well.
48:38
It's really funny because I had this discussion with one of my
48:42
best friends the other day where we were discussing privilege and
48:48
she pointed out to me that I'm very privileged.
48:51
And I, I pointed out to her, and this is someone I've known for
48:54
20 years, right? I pointed out to her, well, I
48:57
didn't start out very privileged, did I?
48:59
I didn't speak the language. And community is very important.
49:04
We live and die by the grace of our communities.
49:07
In my culture, you're part of a collective.
49:10
It's not an individual thing. But if you're in the
49:13
Netherlands, it's a completely different world, right?
49:16
So when I say if I can do it, everyone can, means that it's a
49:21
start from the bottom right to the top kind of story.
49:24
You know, what I have today is not something I was gifted.
49:28
It's something I worked really hard for and it's something that
49:33
I had to make sacrifices for, you know?
49:36
But you make a decision and and you know, there's no wrong or
49:40
right decision. Indecisiveness is your enemy,
49:44
and my decisions didn't always work in my favor.
49:47
But I think what I meant with that quote is that, you know, my
49:53
superpower is resiliency. I can bounce back.
49:57
And my other superpower is that I'm not afraid because what do I
50:01
have to lose? I'm in the Netherlands.
50:04
There's no bombs falling on my head right here.
50:06
I have food on the table, you know what I mean?
50:09
So what's the worst that can happen?
50:11
And if you're in that mindset, what's the worst that can
50:15
happen? And the worst thing for me that
50:18
could happen is someone would die.
50:21
If that's not going to happen, then what's holding you back?
50:24
You know? So I, I came from nothing.
50:27
And now I've come to the realization that I'm living the
50:31
life that I didn't dream I could live, but I still did it.
50:37
And yes, it came at a price. For example, for the first eight
50:43
years of my children's life, of my oldest child's life, I was
50:48
the woman that would come home on Sundays to cut the meat
50:52
because I was always working. And that was my choice.
50:55
My choice was to become a mom. Well, not really a choice, but
51:00
you know, when I became a mom, my choice was to keep on working
51:03
full time because I couldn't picture myself doting on the
51:06
child day in, day out. And don't get me wrong, I love
51:09
my kids. I mean, I really, really,
51:12
seriously love my kids. But I had to make that sacrifice
51:17
to be where I am right now and work full time.
51:21
Now, was that an easy decision? Of course it wasn't, it's never
51:26
an easy decision, but if it was easy, it's not worth pursuing in
51:29
the 1st place. And I feel like if you have my
51:33
background where, you know, you don't really have a lot of
51:37
family around you, where your culture actually says that you
51:41
need your family around you, where, you know, things are not
51:45
given because either you're the, the, the one person 2 quotes
51:49
kind of thing, or you're the diversity hire or you're the
51:52
poster child for, you know, whatever.
51:54
Not there's so many systemic barriers that I had to
51:58
breakthrough that came at a price.
52:01
But if I can do it, then why can't you?
52:06
What is holding you back? You know, and I think for me.
52:10
Is that something that Dutch women miss that that that
52:14
mindset of, of of and I'm generalizing now and but OK,
52:18
what would happen? What's worst thing that can
52:21
happen? Possibly.
52:23
So why don't I do this? Unless it of course leads to
52:26
death, maybe then. Well, I think I think everyone
52:29
is their own person, right? And, and my background, my, my
52:33
trauma, my, my experience are for me, someone else has had
52:37
different experiences and different things that they had
52:40
to go through. So I can't speak for all women.
52:42
You know what I am missing a lot is 1 The the the confidence that
52:51
you can do things and 2nd the power to take action.
52:57
I myself have moments of doubt. I myself have moments that I'm
53:01
like why have I even been doing this?
53:04
Everyone has those moments, but I think what defines you is how
53:09
you deal with those moments. Do you sit on the corner and cry
53:12
and that's it? Or are you, you know, rolling up
53:15
your sleeves and taking action? And I think I do both.
53:18
I mean, I cry for a little bit. I have a big bucket of popcorn
53:21
and a bottle of red wine and get over it and then, you know, move
53:24
on, actually. And I think what helped me a lot
53:27
is, you know, I have surrounded myself with people that are more
53:32
clever, more intelligent, have big dreams, big ambitions, but
53:37
are really grounded, you know, are really grounded.
53:40
They know what they're doing and they know why they're doing it.
53:42
And whenever I encounter something that, you know, is
53:46
really, really messing with my head or whatnot, I give one of
53:50
them a call. And I'm like, I'm facing this.
53:53
What do you think? I mean, last year after the
53:56
elections, I was so demotivated. And I was really, you know, I
54:01
was really, really sad, really sad looking at where the
54:05
Netherlands is going. And, you know, it really did
54:09
something with me mentally. And I called one of my friends
54:13
and he actually brought back this this fire, right?
54:19
And he said, well, you're living in this illusion of
54:22
powerlessness. You have told yourself that
54:25
you're only one person. You cannot make a change.
54:28
Whereas, you know, that's nonsense and you need to get
54:31
over yourself. And then he and I were talking
54:35
and then, you know, he gave me his perspectives.
54:38
And, you know, this is a white guy, white guy, boomer type, but
54:44
incredibly intelligent and also not afraid to tell me like that.
54:48
I'm talking BS, You know what I mean?
54:51
Yeah. And I think when I think when I
54:54
say if I can do it, so can you. I mean that I'm not more special
54:59
or more gifted or whatnot. Hell no.
55:03
As a matter of fact, I'm a very normal, average person.
55:06
I think the only if. I can take one thing from the
55:09
interview. You're one thing.
55:11
Absolutely not, and that is average.
55:15
Well, you know, I mean, I, I mean, that's very kind of to say
55:18
so, but I I'm, I'm, what I'm trying to say is I'm no, not
55:23
better than anyone else. You know, there is so many
55:26
gifted men and women and you know, there's like, I met this,
55:32
this entrepreneur yesterday who's building an AI language
55:36
platform with 3000 languages on it.
55:40
The guy just blew my mind and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you know
55:44
what I mean? The day before, I met this
55:47
incredibly gifted entrepreneur from, I think she was from
55:51
Senegal, who was doing amazing stuff.
55:54
You know, I looked at them and I'm like, wow, holy mother of
56:00
God, can you, can I come work for you?
56:02
Yeah, You know what I mean? Yeah.
56:04
So what I did, I don't think it's that exceptional.
56:08
I don't think it's that. I think it's very normal.
56:10
I've had the chances here in the Netherlands and I sneeze them.
56:14
You know, I've had chances here that I would not have had what
56:18
were I still be in Afghanistan. I had the chance here to get a
56:23
college degree, you know, use the liberties in such a way that
56:27
it fits me. And what I think that a lot of
56:32
people in the Netherlands who, you know, are Dutch sometimes
56:35
forget is how privileged we are. We can actually go to school.
56:41
We have hospitals, We have efficient roads, We have
56:44
efficient infrastructures. We have public transport.
56:48
You know, although the trains never come on time, it's still
56:51
there, you know what I mean? And yes, we still have a really,
56:54
really, really long way to go when it comes to equal
56:57
opportunities because, you know, there's still a lot that needs
57:01
to be unlearned and a lot that needs to be learned and a lot
57:05
that needs to be changed. But systemic change doesn't come
57:09
overnight. And, you know, and I feel like
57:14
if you take those opportunities, if you grasp those moments and
57:18
if you create your own path, then anyone can do it.
57:24
But you cannot wait. And, you know, for, for someone
57:27
to come help you, for someone to give you a handout.
57:29
No, you got to do it. Yeah, it's up to you.
57:33
And I think that's, you know, that's where that mindset comes
57:36
from, that if I can do it, anyone can.
57:39
You know, I had to come from really far so.
57:42
So how can men, how do men fit into the equation to making
57:49
societies and companies and organizations much more
57:52
inclusive? What?
57:54
What can men do? Well, you talked about the
57:58
number of people you, you, you, you talk to regularly that you
58:06
that act as in well, let's say as an advisor.
58:09
What what? What are role model capabilities
58:11
that you would like to champion in men?
58:14
Well, I think, I think the most impactful male allies, they,
58:18
they combine two things, right? So one is advocacy and the other
58:22
is more mentorship. I think the successful allies
58:28
also challenge other men's bias behaviors and share access to
58:33
their professional networks. You know, in in my networks,
58:36
when I have a couple of guys that are really championing for
58:40
me, they really, really, you know, they push me to the
58:43
forefront. They help me out when I asked
58:46
them like, hey, can you help me access this network?
58:48
Because I don't know anyone there, which is sometimes really
58:51
working against me because I'm not part of the old boys
58:54
network. One, I'm not an old boy and two,
58:57
I was never part of any fraternity.
58:59
So, you know, it's, it's very easy.
59:03
So some of these guys in my network, they actually help me a
59:06
lot with granting me access to their networks.
59:08
But also, you know, sometimes when I'm at specific places,
59:12
they literally introduce me to specific people, you know, in
59:16
terms of advocacy. Like, you know, a while back I
59:20
was at an event, absolutely no new one.
59:23
I love networking, so it's not a big issue.
59:26
But at the moment in time, one of the guys from my network came
59:29
in and he was like, finally, you're here.
59:31
We need to talk to this person, that person, that person, you
59:34
know, and my best allies are also the guys that say what
59:40
needs to be said without it coming from a woman, you know,
59:44
So sometimes, sometimes, you know, it's hard for a woman to
59:48
speak up because then she's the angry one.
59:50
She's the angry 1, you know what I mean?
59:54
And and when guys actually challenge those bias remarks or
59:58
challenge those, but you know, those, those status quo type of
1:00:02
things without making it too obvious, of course it helps, you
1:00:06
know, it helps. I know that's not some of my
1:00:08
girls would like like fart, what the hell are you saying?
1:00:11
But it helps because I don't want to be the angry.
1:00:15
Beep Yeah, every single time. You know what I mean?
1:00:18
Yeah. So I think another good example
1:00:24
is, you know, when active, you know when male executives
1:00:30
portray active sponsorships. For example, if women are in
1:00:34
meetings and there is an ally who is an active sponsor, you
1:00:38
know, amplify her ideas, include her to those important
1:00:42
networking events, divide candid feedback, which is really
1:00:46
important. A lot of US women, when we get
1:00:53
feedback on our performance, it's usual general niceties.
1:00:58
You can keep your damn general niceties.
1:01:00
Who needs that? Yeah, You know, give us real
1:01:02
feedback. We're not going to break if you
1:01:05
tell us that, hey, your work on this part was not on point.
1:01:08
It needs to be better. It's not like we're going to
1:01:10
shatter. We're not, you know, Cinderella
1:01:12
and fall 1000 years sleep. I mean, come on, get a grip, You
1:01:17
know what I mean? Yeah, I had to laugh about the
1:01:21
Cinderella thing. Oh my gosh, I hate Cinderella.
1:01:25
Like, anyway, let's not get into that, no.
1:01:28
That's. We can take another podcast on
1:01:31
why I hate Disney. OK.
1:01:33
But I think there's so many things men can do, but it also
1:01:37
starts by actually making those small changes.
1:01:41
Let me just give you one example that I think would matter a lot.
1:01:45
So, you know, when you look at leadership and you look at how
1:01:49
many women raised to the top of leadership, right?
1:01:52
There's a specific moment in your life as a woman when you're
1:01:54
most fertile and when you're having your babies and you want
1:01:57
that family. And then women are presented
1:02:00
with a choice, family or career. Well, I'm a clear example that
1:02:05
you can have both, right? But that also means that if
1:02:11
you're not in an environment where your employer actually
1:02:14
works with you, then it's impossible.
1:02:18
So, you know, real business is often done at networking events,
1:02:24
at social gatherings in companies.
1:02:25
If you want to climb the corporate ladder, you have to
1:02:27
show your face, you have to meet people, you have to play the
1:02:30
politics of the company, right? But then what often happens is
1:02:34
that women need to fix a babysitter, they need to, you
1:02:40
know, find someone to look after children, they need someone to
1:02:43
do the cooking that night, etcetera, etcetera.
1:02:45
Now, these expenses that women have to make are a heavy burden
1:02:51
on, you know, on a women's pocket money, for example, like,
1:02:58
OK, so you want to go to the social event because, you know,
1:03:00
the CEO is going to be there, CTO is going to be there, CEO is
1:03:03
going to be there. You want to climb up the
1:03:04
corporate ladder, you want to go there, but at the same time you
1:03:08
have your toddler and your two year old that need a babysitter,
1:03:13
need to be fed, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
1:03:15
Now employers pick up the drinking tabs.
1:03:19
Why aren't you picking up the babysitting tab?
1:03:21
You know what I mean? You know what a difference that
1:03:24
could make? You know, it makes such a huge
1:03:28
difference because then you're actually making that space for
1:03:31
women to be there to join those gatherings, to climb that
1:03:35
corporate ladder. And I think those small things,
1:03:39
especially when, you know, when the sea level is all guys, one
1:03:43
of the guys in that sea level should be bringing this up and
1:03:45
saying, hey, we need this to change.
1:03:48
That is, you know, that is something.
1:03:49
Yeah. That's where you where you need
1:03:51
your male allies. And let's be honest, if we look
1:03:55
at it biologically, I'm saying biologically, very specific
1:03:59
because I really truly respect the LCBQIA community.
1:04:05
But if we look at it biologically, you have men and
1:04:07
women. Now, if we women with our
1:04:10
collective power, collective consumer power, collective mind
1:04:14
power, collective sisterhood, if we can change things, we still
1:04:19
need the other half to change with us.
1:04:22
Yeah. So, yeah, you need to build
1:04:25
those bridges. And that doesn't mean, you know,
1:04:27
being hostile or, you know, being very confrontational.
1:04:33
You can still make your point, you know, and you've seen me
1:04:36
talk a couple of times, you know how I am.
1:04:39
I can be a bit, you know, on the edges of what is acceptable and
1:04:43
what is not. But at the end of the day, it's
1:04:45
not with the intention to offend anyone.
1:04:48
And I do think that men need women just as much as women need
1:04:52
men. Sounds like a great place to
1:04:54
move to my final question for CEDA.
1:04:57
So my mission is to make inclusion and text a new normal
1:05:00
by the end of 2032. Yeah.
1:05:04
Based on your work, what would you recommend I implement for my
1:05:08
for this podcast or for my work? Yeah, I think you know, because
1:05:13
your podcast is more geared towards towards tech, right and
1:05:17
women disrupting tech. It's more about the disruption
1:05:21
then it's about tech per SE. Yeah, OK.
1:05:25
More about the disruption. Well, I think in general, I
1:05:29
think you're already doing a great job by doing these
1:05:31
interviews by, you know, fostering those connections by
1:05:35
putting the unusual suspects in a room and have conversation
1:05:38
with you. So I think that's already great.
1:05:40
I think what I would wish for you is to have a vision where
1:05:45
you become redundant, where you no longer need it.
1:05:49
It sounds, it might sound weird like, but why would you want
1:05:53
that, you know? But I think if you're redundant
1:05:56
would be the goal. I'm sorry.
1:05:58
Shouldn't that always be the goal?
1:06:00
To make yourself obsolete. Well, for some people it's a
1:06:04
given, but for others it's, you know, if they think about that
1:06:10
type of vision, they they might turn into an existential crisis,
1:06:14
you know, but I think good. So I think if that's your
1:06:18
vision, I would also encourage you to have, you know, a couple
1:06:23
of male speakers to actually amplify the voices.
1:06:28
I would encourage you to have speakers from Asian or African
1:06:32
descent because they have a different story to tell, a story
1:06:37
where I think a lot of women with the Western background
1:06:41
could learn, I think of to from. But at the end of the day, I
1:06:49
think you need a community around you that is actually
1:06:53
going to enforce these changes. And that doesn't have to be you.
1:06:57
You know, you could be the the bringer of the message, the
1:07:00
initiator of the dialogue. Because at the end of the day, I
1:07:02
think that is what's needed more than ever is that we engage in
1:07:06
dialogue with each other. You know, what I see now is I
1:07:10
see two camps screaming at each other and everybody wants to be
1:07:14
heard and everyone has an opinion.
1:07:16
You know, opinions are like beeps.
1:07:20
Everybody's got one. But it's not always worth
1:07:22
listening to. And I think that whole idea of
1:07:26
us as society being in a continuous debate, it's doing us
1:07:30
more harm than good. We need to have a dialogue.
1:07:34
And I think that is something you can help with, you know,
1:07:38
kick starting that dialogue and maybe doing some more advocacy
1:07:41
because, again, you come into networks that, you know, some of
1:07:45
us don't have access to. Yeah.
1:07:49
Does that answer your question? It does, and I want to thank you
1:07:54
for the wonderful conversation. Farsida really enjoyed it.
1:07:59
So people want to learn more about you and about your work at
1:08:02
ECE Erosion Center for Entrepreneurship.
1:08:05
Where would you like to send them?
1:08:08
Well they can definitely follow us on LinkedIn.
1:08:11
They can always DM me on LinkedIn, get in contact with
1:08:16
me, that's always fine. I have to say that I myself are
1:08:20
not on any other social platforms.
1:08:23
So if you look for me on TikTok or Insta or what, save yourself
1:08:26
the time because you won't find me.
1:08:28
So just on LinkedIn for myself, for the company.
1:08:31
We do have an Instagram, so you can follow us on Instagram.
1:08:35
You can also just join us on LinkedIn or just send me an
1:08:38
e-mail. I'm always up for a good
1:08:40
conversation. If you have a good idea you want
1:08:42
to discuss. My time is somewhat limited, but
1:08:44
I do always give feedback. You know, if you, especially if
1:08:47
you send me things in written ways, I will always make the
1:08:50
time to give you feedback. Other than that, well, we're
1:08:53
based in Rotterdam in the city center.
1:08:55
So whenever you're around, just come by, have a coffee.
1:08:58
And I have a question for you though.
1:09:01
OK, sure. You didn't ask me about the
1:09:04
swear jar. What did you want to know about
1:09:06
the swear jar? Yeah, I skipped the swear jar
1:09:09
thing. I was wondering what what
1:09:11
because I remember from a discussion, I think it was with
1:09:15
Dorothy CG. Yeah.
1:09:19
At her event that I heard you say something along the lines
1:09:24
of, OK, I'm the main contributor to a swear jar, but I consider
1:09:29
it as a sign of intelligence. I was wondering because usually
1:09:34
swearing is not like let's not call it call it not politically
1:09:38
correct. So I was wondering how that how
1:09:40
that fit in? Well, let me just put it like
1:09:44
this. In my first year at ECE, at the
1:09:47
Christmas dinner, my team shamed me by showing a number of times
1:09:53
that I sweared within the first six months of the job.
1:09:56
And I was working part time because I was still in my other
1:09:59
role as well. So I was combining 2 jobs and
1:10:02
they shamed me literally in front of everyone.
1:10:04
This is my comms team. And then, you know, I made this
1:10:08
New Year's resolution in 23 that I would do better.
1:10:11
Yeah. It didn't work.
1:10:13
No. So in 24 I made the New Year's
1:10:16
resolution that I will at least try.
1:10:18
Yeah, it didn't work. Changing your behavior is very
1:10:22
hard. So beginning of this year, since
1:10:25
January, we have a swear jar. Yeah, so every time I swear,
1:10:30
which is also why this conversation was without swear
1:10:33
words. Did you notice?
1:10:35
Yeah. Yeah, every time I swear I have
1:10:38
to put 5 bucks. Every why I forgot about to
1:10:40
Oscar. So I had to.
1:10:42
I have to. Every single time I swear I have
1:10:47
to put 5 bucks into the swear jar.
1:10:50
Now just imagine me swearing 4 times a day.
1:10:54
That's already 20 bucks going into the swear jar, like you
1:10:58
know what I mean? I like smoking.
1:11:00
Yeah, it's like, it's like it's a, it's a crazy kind of thing.
1:11:04
But what you were asking is like swearing and, and, and
1:11:09
intelligence, you know, what does that mean?
1:11:11
And I think it comes from that. Yeah.
1:11:14
First of all, I think it's, it's beyond going the vocabulary,
1:11:18
right? I think it's about social
1:11:21
intelligence, about knowing when and where it's appropriate to
1:11:25
swear and when it's not and and it's kind of a social cognitive
1:11:30
skill like picking the right clothes for the right occasion,
1:11:33
etcetera, etcetera. So I think it's more of that.
1:11:38
Is it also about feeling that you belong somewhere that you
1:11:42
feel safe? Yeah, if you feel comfortable,
1:11:46
you know, if you feel like you can be your authentic self, I
1:11:49
think. Yeah, I think then, you know,
1:11:52
swearing could be associated with some type of verbal
1:11:56
dexterity, wider vocabulary and, you know, positive personality
1:12:01
traits. I think, you know, I think
1:12:04
that's where swearing and intelligence combines.
1:12:07
And the sense of belonging. Yeah.
1:12:09
If I didn't feel comfortable with my team, I would not do it,
1:12:12
you know, so. So I think, yeah, it does give
1:12:16
you a sense of belonging, you know, but I am trying to.
1:12:19
It was actually a compliment to your team I.
1:12:22
Think so. And you know, but I also have to
1:12:25
say, and this may be a bit longer than we actually planned
1:12:28
to talk to about each other, but I have to say that people with
1:12:32
my background, refugees, non western immigrants, we are
1:12:36
masters of code switching. You know, the way I speak with
1:12:42
partners outside of my comfort zone is completely different
1:12:46
from the way I speak with my friends or at home.
1:12:51
But you become a master at code switching, so you know what
1:12:54
language to use, in what context, and in which
1:12:57
conversation, right? And I think for my team, because
1:13:01
I feel so comfortable with them, Yeah, something's sometimes,
1:13:06
sometimes something, you know, is messed up.
1:13:08
And then there's AF word flying here and an S word flying there.
1:13:12
Now I literally have to pay for it.
1:13:14
But it also shows that I'm really comfortable with my
1:13:17
teams. Yeah, you're right.
1:13:18
It is a compliment to them. Well, Farshida, thanks very much
1:13:22
for the for that last bit or so. I really appreciated this
1:13:26
conversation. We'll include all the links to
1:13:30
the social profiles and to your personal LinkedIn in the show
1:13:33
notes. With that, I want to thank my
1:13:38
listeners for listening and until the next episode, keep
1:13:42
being awesome. Well, that's a wrap.
1:13:49
Thank you for listening to episode 104 of Women Disrupting
1:13:53
Tech on Mastering the art of authenticity with Farshida Zafar
1:13:58
Farsida, and I hope that you found our conversation as
1:14:01
inspiring and engaging as we did.
1:14:03
And if you'd like to learn more about or connect with Farsida
1:14:08
and Erosion Center for Entrepreneurship, please check
1:14:11
out the links in the show notes. As usual, you can find the show
1:14:15
notes at Women Disrupting Tech dot log.
1:14:18
When you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please follow the
1:14:21
podcast on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, or YouTube.
1:14:25
Following Women Disrupting Tech is a great 0 cost way to support
1:14:29
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1:14:33
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1:15:00
So don't forget to subscribe on Sub Stack for more about Women
1:15:04
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1:15:07
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1:15:11
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1:15:15
On LinkedIn, you can just search for my name Dirkyon because and
1:15:19
you'll find me. With that, I wish you a
1:15:22
wonderful day. I hope to see you in the next
1:15:25
episode and until then, keep being awesome.