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BONE-CHILLING BRYAN KOHBERGER DETAILS EMERGE Part 2 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case. Good evening,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: being with us.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: author Howard.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Bloom, Thank you for being with us with us, Author
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom has just come out with an incredible book
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: full chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the theory supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Coberg in fact murdered for young University Idaho students. Howard Bloom,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: you describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Dylan and Bethany.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Listen in the early morning hours between four am and
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: four thirty am, Dylan Mortensen says she calls out to
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: her friends, who she thinks her being too loud. After
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: hearing more loud noises, Mortenson again tells her roommates to
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: calm down, she's trying to sleep. She turns and locks
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: their door, hearing loud noises again. Mortensen opens the door
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  Speaker 3: and sees Brian Coberger allegedly and believing him to be
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: a partygoer who is leaving, says nothing, shuts and locks
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: her door again.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: The girl that lived, According to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: into the home on King Road with a mission to
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: commit the perfect murder. Could he actually commit mass murder
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: and not leave a trace behind? And what about the
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: two that lived? Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk.
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  Speaker 2: Listen.
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  Speaker 3: Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: friends are murdered upstairs and are left unharmed. Sources tell
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and Funk
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: were using their cell phones to communicate before, during, and
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and Funk
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: were both in the home and on their cell phones
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: when the murders are taking place, why is there an
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: eight hour delay before police are called in? Why were
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: other friends called before police?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: in with your own theories and questions. The state could
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: use them.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Howard Bloom.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I'm curious as well, and you devote a lot of
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  Speaker 1: time to this in your book when the night comes
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: falling about the delay on Dylan Mortenson's part, she actually
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: sees the killer leaving the home. There is a serious delay,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: and during that time a lot of evidence could and
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: most likely was lost. Question to you. You described the
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: police grappling with that's seven to eight hour delay.
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: Describe that the police are dumbfounded.
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: They can't understand how this girl could see a killer
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: in the house and do nothing about it. Her behavior
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: is irrational, and I think though ultimately the police and
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: I have concluded that a rational explanation is impossible. I
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: think she was locked in a state of terror. I
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: also believe Coberger has he descended and passed her on
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: his way out of the house, was locked in his
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: own state of mania. He was surrounded by his own
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: armory of hate, if you will. If Dylan had spoken out,
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: if she had tried to penetrate the moment that he
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: was locked in, I think she would have died. I
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  Speaker 5: think she would have become another victim her terror. Her
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: silence saved her life.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: You know, I haven't really thought about it in the
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Just
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: a hit series body Bags podcast. We've gone round and
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: round about Dylan Mortenson, more so than Bethany because Bethany,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: while there, did not see the perpetrator leaving. That's why
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson. What do you
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: make of what Howard Bloom just said. I agree with him.
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  Speaker 1: If she had uttered a sound, she would be dead
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  Speaker 1: right now.
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  Speaker 6: I agree. Here's here's my perspective. I think that there's
• 4:59
  Speaker 6: an element this where Coburger, if he did in fact
• 5:03
  Speaker 6: commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he
• 5:07
  Speaker 6: has tunnel vision at this point in time, He's trying
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  Speaker 6: to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of
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  Speaker 6: the energy that he has expended at this point in time,
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  Speaker 6: starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter
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  Speaker 6: that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and
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  Speaker 6: then to be surprised by the other two residents on
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  Speaker 6: this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter
• 5:34
  Speaker 6: them and make his way past them. I don't know
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  Speaker 6: that people, and I hope people never do understand the
• 5:41
  Speaker 6: amount of energy that would go in to try to
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  Speaker 6: commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in.
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  Speaker 6: I think that probably if she had in fact spoken,
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  Speaker 6: she would have just become an obstacle to him that
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  Speaker 6: he's trying to defeat to make his way to that
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  Speaker 6: door so he can get out and get in that car.
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  Speaker 2: And leave much the way.
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  Speaker 1: According to Howard Bloom, Kelley Gonsolvis became let me just
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  Speaker 1: see an impediment because of the ferocity of the attack
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: on Kelly Gonsolvis, and her father said that he believed
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is saying Maddie was
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: the target and Kelly was in the way, So that
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: supports what you're saying. But I want to follow up
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  Speaker 1: with doctor Angela Arnold. I want you to hear this,
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  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom and Brian Stewart, you often have to go
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: to state of mind as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela
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  Speaker 1: Arnold is with US renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
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  Speaker 1: You can find her at angela Arnold MD dot com.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Angie, let's analyze what we've just heard, how or
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: could I use that at trial to explained to this
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: jury why Dylan Mortenson did nothing. Now I have defended
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Dylan Mortenson from the get go. Dylan Mortenson is a
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  Speaker 1: crime victim. Let's not forget that before everybody heaps on
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  Speaker 1: what she did wrong.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, she did nothing wrong.
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  Speaker 1: She had been out, like many, many thousands of vandals,
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  Speaker 1: that's the college mascot, drinking and having a good time.
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  Speaker 1: There was a football game that weekend. She comes home,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: it's really late, at nine, around four am.
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  Speaker 2: She's been partying.
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  Speaker 1: She hears a noise, she hears the dog, she hears
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  Speaker 1: her roommates saying something, and she gets up in that
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: state of mind, How does she know who he was?
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  Speaker 1: That he was a killer. How does she know he
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  Speaker 1: wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long.
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  Speaker 1: It's four in the morning.
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  Speaker 2: Is that why she.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Didn't call nine one one? Now the crux the rub
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: is going to be what's in the cell phone communications
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: between Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, a rational explanation as to why Dylan did
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: not call nine one one.
• 8:29
  Speaker 7: Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember,
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  Speaker 7: these are kids that are in college. They're partying. It's
• 8:37
  Speaker 7: close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in
• 8:41
  Speaker 7: their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer
• 8:45
  Speaker 7: in the house and my friends have been killed. I
• 8:48
  Speaker 7: am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise.
• 8:53
  Speaker 7: Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going
• 8:55
  Speaker 7: from this house because they're just kids in college having
• 8:59
  Speaker 7: a good time, right, that was the culture there. So
• 9:03
  Speaker 7: she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with
• 9:08
  Speaker 7: all of the communication back and forth and everything, she
• 9:12
  Speaker 7: had no idea who he was. He wasn't She didn't
• 9:16
  Speaker 7: recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house.
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  Speaker 7: And she was probably a little bit scared because of
• 9:24
  Speaker 7: the noise that she had heard.
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  Speaker 2: She was a little bit of shocked. I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know about her being scared, because if she
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: was scared, she would have called nine one one.
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  Speaker 2: I think she was a little bit drunk.
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  Speaker 7: And maybe she was, Nancy, And so if she was,
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  Speaker 7: it's not like she was out driving and drinking. She
• 9:42
  Speaker 7: was in her home, Hey hey, hey, and drink slow down, sleeping.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: It off, Slow down, Nellie, you're preaching to the choir
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: I'm on Dylan's side on this crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Back to Howard Bloom.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, I can explain away why she didn't call nine
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  Speaker 1: one one, But what do we know about her communications
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  Speaker 1: with Bethany during that time the other roommate. Does it
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: prove she did know an attack was occurring, or does
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: it prove the contrary You.
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case.
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: All I have been able to find out is that
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury.
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: The grand jury heard about it, the grand jury reviewed
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: some of those texts.
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  Speaker 4: What they said. I'd be.
• 10:52
  Speaker 5: Dishonest if I said I knew. My feeling is, though,
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  Speaker 5: that Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: changed forever by these events, and you know, we keep
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: on looking for a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior.
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  Speaker 4: It wasn't irrational night.
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  Speaker 1: I think I know something, I think I can do something,
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  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom, and I may be very be proving very
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: wrong come trial time. But let me go to a
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  Speaker 1: trial strategist on this.
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  Speaker 2: Brian C.
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  Speaker 1: Stewart veteran trial lawyer who is joining us from this
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  Speaker 1: jurisdiction in Idaho.
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  Speaker 2: He practices there in Utah.
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  Speaker 1: Brian, you've tried a lot of cases, and if you
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: want to win a case, you marshal your evidence. You
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: have a plan what you're going I recall when I
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  Speaker 1: would write out yes, I would write out every question
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  Speaker 1: verbatim for every witness. Of course, you know you have
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: a plan when you go into a fight, but when
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: you get a punch in the nose, the plan goes
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  Speaker 1: to hey, right, so you have a plan. Let's think
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: about these communications, the communications between Dylan and Bethany.
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  Speaker 2: We know they were communicating by phone.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those were not
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  Speaker 1: phone calls, they were texts. Those texts were given to
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  Speaker 1: the grand jury who indicted Coburger.
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  Speaker 2: Think this through.
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  Speaker 1: I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts
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  Speaker 1: were about.
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  Speaker 2: What is the noise? Did you hear the dog?
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  Speaker 1: What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah,
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  Speaker 1: Because Brian C. Stewart, if those texts were about, oh
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  Speaker 1: my star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream?
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  Speaker 1: I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre.
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  Speaker 1: I believe those texts would have been used as establishing
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  Speaker 1: a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: those texts if they were probative.
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  Speaker 2: In other words, if they proved anything.
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  Speaker 4: I think that's right.
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  Speaker 8: We would have heard more about them. They would have
• 13:13
  Speaker 8: given us more information about what the girls experienced during
• 13:16
  Speaker 8: that period. But to me, the fact that they were
• 13:20
  Speaker 8: locked inside their rooms and sending texts rather than talking
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  Speaker 8: or going to find each other tells me that they
• 13:27
  Speaker 8: were still in fear and didn't believe they Wait.
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  Speaker 1: A minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that.
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  Speaker 1: My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: don't like jewelry, fancy cars, or clothes. Don't even say fur.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: He gave me I Granny cam.
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  Speaker 4: I love it.
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  Speaker 2: I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Do I need to go get out of bed at
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: three am and go check on her like I did
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the first eight years she lived with us. How easy
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  Speaker 1: is it to text? Why do you want to get
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: up when you're wearing nothing? But a T shirt. Go
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: out in the hall, knock on your roommate's.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Door and go, hey, wake up.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: I've got a question. What's going on up there? Technical term?
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. Bs.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Of course they're texting. I text back and.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Forth with the twins. We're in there there in the.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Back of the house, right, that's not I don't find
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  Speaker 1: that disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.
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  Speaker 8: But if they had heard some struggle, if they had
• 14:40
  Speaker 8: heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me
• 14:43
  Speaker 8: that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear
• 14:46
  Speaker 8: during those hours.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Cold Case Foundation, former
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I found him, Chris mcdona, haven't we both agreed that
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: on the totem.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms and.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: The house looks very different from the front than it
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: does on the side than it does from the back.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: bloom So vividly lays out in his book, whoever has
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: to live down there, you can't keep the light out,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a car
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: pulls up in that driveway, that parking area, and a
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: lot of people do because.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: It's a very steep and narrow road.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: It's one of the only places to turn around and
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: go back down the descent of the hill. This house
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: is near the top of a hill and people are
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: house around is a party house. Constant traffic. So the
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms, and
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: that would be Dylan and Bethany air Ago. Therefore, Chris mcdonnaugh,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: they keep their doors locked and their curtains pulled almost.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: All the time.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: That is an entry point to get to the other floors.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: So people visiting the second third floor residents often come
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: through that door. So they keep their doors locked, Chris
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: mcdona and their curtains closed. And that's why, and Bloom
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: lays it out in his book, that's why the doors
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: were locked.
• 16:41
  Speaker 9: Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you
• 16:45
  Speaker 9: that you know the point of entry. Would you know,
• 16:49
  Speaker 9: for an individual like this who has taken so much
• 16:53
  Speaker 9: time to you know, plan this out, potentially to come
• 16:57
  Speaker 9: through that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense.
• 17:00
  Speaker 9: The back point of entry would make much more sense,
• 17:04
  Speaker 9: which also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing.
• 17:09
  Speaker 9: If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today,
• 17:13
  Speaker 9: you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember,
• 17:19
  Speaker 9: up until four o'clock four am, they're still getting people
• 17:25
  Speaker 9: knocking on that door, i e. The food delivery, et cetera.
• 17:28
  Speaker 9: So it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at some
• 17:32
  Speaker 9: point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating with
• 17:36
  Speaker 9: each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates, and
• 17:39
  Speaker 9: quite frankly, when it goes quiet and coburger comes down
• 17:43
  Speaker 9: those stairs, they may have even been thinking the party's over,
• 17:46
  Speaker 9: this is the last guy out, and they may have
• 17:49
  Speaker 9: even gone back to bed, and so that end of itself,
• 17:53
  Speaker 9: the fear factor could play into this, or quite frankly,
• 17:57
  Speaker 9: like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's an alcohol on board
• 18:00
  Speaker 9: and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just college students.
• 18:04
  Speaker 9: They're going back to sleep, and that would account.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: For the delay and much has been made to the
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: fact that Coburger was wearing a mask. Why would she
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: have not been suspicious of that? Do I have to
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: say COVID?
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 18:17
  Speaker 9: Absolutely, and that and that does you know play play
• 18:20
  Speaker 9: into this?
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Now?
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Early on we heard Killi Gorinsavis's parents speaking out stating
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: she was the target. And I understand that because her
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: wounds were so much.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: More heinous than Maddie's.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: But according to this new Bombshield theory, Maddie was in
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: fact the target. Also, we are learning from Horod Bloom's
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: new book, When the Night Comes Falling, that there is
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Coburger to protect his sweetheart Xenna. Kernodle to Howard Bloom,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I know that you have researched this so much that
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: it may have become you know, sop to you, but
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: to us, the revelations that you make in your book
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: was trying to protect Xenna, and that after he attacked Ethan,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: you to Xena and then kills her.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: What facts support your theory.
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: that he was killed with a one massive cut to
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: speaking out, UH, first saying there's someone here, and then
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: the assailants saying, I don't worry. I've come to help you.
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: suspect approaching Xana and saying, don't worry, I've come to
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: commitment UH to the crime and to taking this victim
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: not going to live.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: You go into each of the victim's backgrounds painstakingly, and
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Xanna just an upsetting background as a child, Both of
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: her parents have been in and out of jail. And
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: what does she do? She survives, She works harder and
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: harder and harder. She's taken in by her aunt and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: she is victorious against all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: you know, I think you were with us at some
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: No, you were not with us.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: But then later when you were speaking, she stood up
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: and started talking and during your address, and.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: What a woman, the strength that mom had.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: She just just remembering her and what she said to
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: To you, Jo Scott, regarding the evidence, the blood spattered,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: the blood trail, the blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: is saying, I want to merge those because if I
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: were telling this to a jury, I would have to
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: I would have to describe what Howard Bloom says about
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: how Coburger comes into the room and he is confronted
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: by Ethan to protect his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: by a slicing stab to the juggler, and then the killer,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: as Ethan crumples to the ground, moves forward to his
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: next target, Xena Kernodle, and she's afraid, and he says,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: don't worry.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I'm here to help you explain how I can prove
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: this at trial.
• 23:07
  Speaker 6: I think that when you think about progression, we talk
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: about in forensics a commingling of evidence. And from the
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have
• 23:22
  Speaker 6: commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene.
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first
• 23:31
  Speaker 6: he Coburger, allegedly, would have had blood evidence on him,
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: and not just on him, but also this weapon. As
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: life with the slice to the throat. He's going to
• 23:47
  Speaker 6: advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: between the perpetrator and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy.
• 23:56
  Speaker 6: We have indication that at least through one report, that
• 24:01
  Speaker 6: she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually
• 24:04
  Speaker 6: went down to the level of the tendons. That means
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed
• 24:10
  Speaker 6: hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and
• 24:14
  Speaker 6: it slices through the palm of her hand. And we
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss
• 24:21
  Speaker 6: the emotion, but you have to think about it as
• 24:23
  Speaker 6: far as the progression if you want to try to
• 24:25
  Speaker 6: zero in on this and get an idea as to
• 24:28
  Speaker 6: the order of these events. I think probably the biggest
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: thing that this jury is going to see in this
• 24:35
  Speaker 6: case when they see these crime scene images Nancy, is
• 24:38
  Speaker 6: that both of these locations, both of these rooms are
• 24:41
  Speaker 6: going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence.
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: The big question is, how did he clear that house
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other
• 24:51
  Speaker 6: locations in that house or certainly within the confines of
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: that car. How did he escape that without having blood
• 24:58
  Speaker 6: all over the place at his apartment for instance, That
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: remains to be seen.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: You know, Bryan C.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Stewart joining US veteran trial lawyer, managing partner at Parker
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction Idaho and Utah.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: You know, the defense is really going to have a
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: heck of a time because the predatory nature of what
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: was said to Xanna.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Think about it.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Think about it, I would lay it out for a
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: jury just as I believe it happened. Coburger walks into
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that dark room, Ethan jumps up from the bed. He
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: approaches Coburger to protect his sweetheart, xanaker Noodle, who's still
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: lying in the bed. He's immediately sliced across a jugular
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: and falls to his death.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Right here.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: He then advances on Xanna, whose line in bed, and
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: he says the deceiving words, don't worry, I'm here to
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: help you, before he murders her. He is well within
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: his wits, he is prepossessed of mind, and he has
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: a wherewithal to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: of his advancing silently towards Xanna Kernodle is bone chilling.
• 26:41
  Speaker 8: I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear
• 26:44
  Speaker 8: minded and intentional about everything that he did that night.
• 26:49
  Speaker 8: And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or
• 26:52
  Speaker 8: a mental component in order to get a conviction that
• 26:56
  Speaker 8: doesn't necessarily include the motive.
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: Or motivation for why he did the crimes.
• 27:01
  Speaker 8: The mensraa would would mean that they have to prove
• 27:05
  Speaker 8: that he intended the actions that he did, which he
• 27:08
  Speaker 8: clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives.
• 27:12
  Speaker 8: And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say
• 27:17
  Speaker 8: that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't
• 27:20
  Speaker 8: intend to take their lives, and it and it should
• 27:23
  Speaker 8: be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of
• 27:28
  Speaker 8: his of his actions.
• 27:30
  Speaker 6: How you know it?
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: How y'all do it today?
• 27:33
  Speaker 7: Good? Good?
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: Take look your driver's lines and real quick if I could.
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: So, he's right up on that man.
• 27:39
  Speaker 9: Man, you right up on the back end of that man,
• 27:43
  Speaker 9: old job for tailgating? Is this your car?
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: Okay? Cool?
• 27:49
  Speaker 9: Where are you headed?
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: Well? Were coming from w R s U.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Where are you headed? He later says, we're going for
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: thie food? And the dad's like what you were seeing?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Bodycam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriffes Department bodycam
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: when they pull them over and ask to see.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Coburger's driver's license.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one trip home.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over?
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: that's stunt to high heaven with me right now. Howard Bloom,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: author of a brand new book, When the Night Comes
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders, which is amazing,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: and in his book he outlined how these two pullovers
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or so they thought.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Take a listen to more of the pullover.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: What's w s U? Yeah, what's very oppos that is
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: wat's Maria?
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: Sure?
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Okay, I have a hard time period because of the traffic.
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: So you're coming from Washington State University and you're going
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: where oh wouldn't be going.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: Back to day Okay, yeah, we're a little lightly much.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: How to Howard Bloom, I'm gonna circle back to the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: fact that unasked, he starts talking about SWAT teams swarming
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: the area.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Methink thou dost protest too much?
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Yet he's dead.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: When nobody asked.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: But I want to circle back to the so called
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: hat Box operation that you described so well in your
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: book When the Night Comes Falling? Explain and why did
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: the FBI, who absolutely was following Coburger as he and
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: his dad across the country.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Thought that their entire operation may go up in flames.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: reason was that it was the identification was based on
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: the genealogy genetics investigative genetic genealogy, and.
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: They thought that wouldn't hold up in court.
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: Or a much more cynical explanation would be that the
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: FBI I didn't want to share the credit for Coburg's
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: arrest with anyone else.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: So they go off and follow him.
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: And they have cars, they have a plane in the
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: air that's following his route. And suddenly they see Coburger
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: being stopped and they don't know what's going on, and
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: they don't know what to do. Had a they think
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: a local cop, a local sheriff had seen the be
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: on the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hondai,
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: a Lantra, or they're also wondering how is Coburger going
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: to react he is a suspect in a quadruple homicide.
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: Is he going to get on the put his foot
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: in to give him this traffic ticket. The FBI decides
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: to stand back and see what happens. To their great relief,
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: Coburger is allowed to go through, and they figure, well, this.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: Is just a traffic stop of some kind. Been nine
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: minutes later.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: It's almost laughable, Howard, because that the FBI actually has
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: a bird in the air watching. They see one pullover
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: by the Hancock Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on his way.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: And then there's another pullover.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Don't you know they're like, what is happening down there?
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: they're watching from a bird, right.
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: Yes, they have assess and they're flying overhead.
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: You know, it's a hawk waiting to swoop down in
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: case anything happens in effect, and they've been building this
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: case for six weeks and they're finally getting closer, and
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: they think the whole case is going to be blown
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: apart before they've connected all the dots, and they are
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: filled with a sense of panic.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: But discipline, how.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: They were right and this is no offense to Indiana
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: at all.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: But I understand where.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: The FBI is coming from, and you know how much
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: I hate the FEDS. But that said Chris mcdunn ad
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective and
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if they
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and they arrested
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: him or sped off, anything could have happened. Because we
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: can't We can't predict what Coburger is going to do.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Just like his father, he had no idea what his
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: that we got. When they finally got home to the
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Pocono area, remember they were surveilled. They went in finally
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: or in the early morning hours. They catch him, I think,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and separating
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: his trash from everybody else's trash and they see him
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: None of them.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: That would have happened if local authorities had to arrested
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Coburger for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: and brought about his own arrest. So I understand why
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: they were worried.
• 34:15
  Speaker 9: Yeah, and absolutely, and not only that. If you remember,
• 34:19
  Speaker 9: this officer is leaning in, so if he would have
• 34:21
  Speaker 9: seen anything in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan
• 34:24
  Speaker 9: was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything
• 34:28
  Speaker 9: like that, Well, the clock starts ticking right then and there.
• 34:30
  Speaker 9: If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that
• 34:35
  Speaker 9: you may have this fugitive Task Force surveillance team you know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 9: overhead and behind him going hey, what the heck is
• 34:42
  Speaker 9: going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to
• 34:45
  Speaker 9: say it, but I've seen this as well as many others,
• 34:49
  Speaker 9: numerous at times where you know, this thing could have
• 34:52
  Speaker 9: gone south really fast. But fortunately they cut him loose
• 34:57
  Speaker 9: and they were able to connect those dots.
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: Later on h M.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: And what did you say about some swat team thing? Yes,
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: there was, Yeah, there was a NASS shooting you know where,
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: that was good. Interesting, it's horrifying.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: These I want to tell you'll talk about volunteering. That's
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Coburger talking about the swat team as it related to
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: a different homicide.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: But as you can see, he's.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Going on and on and on about murders and swat
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: teams that he wasn't asked about.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: So sure y'all work at the university here?
• 36:04
  Speaker 7: Actually the.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Huge okay, okay.
• 36:17
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just yesterday or.
• 36:23
  Speaker 7: About an hour, and yet all was still wrapping up.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: I want not show this tutions if they could shoot
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: somebody as they and then you don't know about that actuating.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: It's really hard to hear it.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Remember that bodycam that Ellie is wearing on their shoulder,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting, and you
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying. So Coburger
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: knew very well how his father would view a murder,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: much less a quadruple murder.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: So whild the FBI and their bird in the air of.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: The helicopter at SASNA is watching two times police pull
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: over Coburger in route home. Howard Bloom in his book
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: When the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: that means? What does that mean? And what is it?
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: How does it relate to Coburger?
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: The hat box operation goes back to the days of
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: and they would trail people on the street. They'd have
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, their surveillance
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes,
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: you're going to follow this guy. It's a complete operation.
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: pick him up till a couple of hours later because
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: he's taken a different route than the one they expected,
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: and they pick him up through a license plate reader
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: And it really befuddles me.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Why in the last minute, after all of his father's
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: research about the best route home, it was a long drive.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: He Coburger comes up with a very roundabout circuitous route home.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: so walking on eggshields around his son Coburger. Then he goes, Okay,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: it made no sense and that was not the route
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: the FBI was expecting and they lose.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Coburger reminds me of the securitiest route.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: I believe he took the night after the murders to
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: get back home. Oh my stars, we've got all the
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: digital evidence to get to the turning the phone off,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: the turning the phone on, the cell phone towers. And
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: it's really interesting speaking of that, Howard, into your book,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: you talk about out a pitch that Coburger makes to
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the local PD trying to get a job an internship,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: and you quote what he says in his pitch, and
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I found it really interesting how he would help rural
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: police departments better analyze sell and digital data to incorporate
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me, of course,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: he didn't get the job, by the way, but it
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: tells me how intricately familiar he is with digital evidence
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: and supports the theory that he intentionally turned off his
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: phone when he left the King Road address and when
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: he went into the King Road address.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, no, very much so.
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: Also that short note he writes reflects his arrogance, his
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: sort of condescending attitude. Is he the criminology doctoral candidate,
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: he knows more than the local police. The irony is
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: that within months that would be used against him, the
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: evidence that they had compiled from cell phones and cell
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: phone towered data.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: purchase of a uniform at Walmart.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: How does that play into this investigation?
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform, a work
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: out that a one piece sort of body suit that
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: that suit on the night of the killings. That's how
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: the suit put it into a plastic bag garbage bag,
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: they theorize, and that it also explains that long route
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: home that that you've mentioned previously. He found a place
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: to dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood,
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: and also the murder weapon you refer.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: To a Dicky's work suit. I believe it was purchased
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: at Walmart, and that would explain not only why his
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: clothes were not covered in blood, but the Dickie's work suit,
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: I think is a jumper that you put on over
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: your clothes if you wish, and that was never recovered.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: But to the receipt. Did the receipt reveal when the
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: uniform was purchased.
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: It was purchased at the best I've been able to ascertain.
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: I was told. I don't have the exact date.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: So not any time that he was working in systems.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Remember he had a job where he was kind of
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: like a repair guy way back when this suit, this
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Dickie's work suit, was purchased just before the murders. And
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: filed against him at Washington State University by female students,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: and it went on and on and on. It wasn't
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: an overnight thing. The faculty, the administration there went to
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: great pains to document what was stated and to give
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: him a chance to explain it. But you describe Howard
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: the whole way home, how Coburger was seething about what
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: had been said about him by these female students, and
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: more important, how he was going to beat the rap
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: and how they could not fire him.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: He was going to fight back.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Little did he know they had already sent an email
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: telling him it's over, or sent him a letter telling
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: him it was all over. But that seething that you
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: describing your book was riveting.
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father,
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: he thought he was going to be able to return
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up
• 43:18
  Speaker 5: against him, he could talk his way out of it.
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: That's what he kept on telling his father. I can
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing,
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: and I can act.
• 43:26
  Speaker 5: In my own as my own defense attorney, and I
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: can convince them that I should not be fired.
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: He needed this job. This job, this teaching.
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: Assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a year
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: or so tuition and board.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: You know, I looked at your sources at the end
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: of your book, and I don't see the sources for
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: what was said in that car, his seething anger about
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: keeping many of your sources secret?
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: is pretty much why I started into This is what
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: the FBI did. They built a family tree, genetic clusters,
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I
• 44:18
  Speaker 5: did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: knocking on doors, reaching out to them until I got
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers
• 44:34
  Speaker 5: to talk to me. And that was my primary sources. Also,
• 44:38
  Speaker 5: there were people in the town who had also spoken
• 44:42
  Speaker 5: to them, in the whole Strausburg al Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: the austere room where the murder case was worked at
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: police headquarters, and he said, as law enforcement divided their facts,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: marshaled their evidence into two categories empirical and rhetorical.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Empirical the hard evidence. Rhetorical the why.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: And that's what we are doing tonight again, Howard Bloom,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you for your book and for joining us again
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: to part two of the analysis. And we barely scratch
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: the surface the analysis of what you have learned about
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: the Coburger investigation. Thank you to our other expert witnesses,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: but especially to you for joining us as we seek
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: justice in our own way. Nancy Gray signing off, good
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: night friend,