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Wait! Can a tree really own itself? · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer,
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Speaker 1: mister Max Williams. WHOA, I am secretly a tree in disguise.
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Speaker 2: What a good disguise it is to sway in the breeze.
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Speaker 1: And that's mister Noel Brown. Let's give it up for him.
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Speaker 2: I'm more of a stump kind of thing.
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Speaker 1: Oh, don't do it. I can see you as a willow,
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Speaker 1: not a weepy one. From time to time. I've been
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Speaker 1: known to weep. Is you Ben by the way, Yes, yeah,
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Speaker 1: Ben Bullen from earlier today, Folks, we wanted to let
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Speaker 1: you know that we love trees and we hope that
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Speaker 1: isn't a hot take. Could I tell you, guys a
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Speaker 1: quick little anecdote, and this is something that's been on
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Speaker 1: my mind. A treetail, a tree tail? Yes, okay, So
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Speaker 1: you know, Max, I don't know if you're aware of this.
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Speaker 1: You probably are because I'm insufferable, but uh, Noel, you're
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Speaker 1: well aware that I have been in a long term
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Speaker 1: relationship with a murder of crows.
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Speaker 2: Oh I thought you were going to say, with a
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Speaker 2: field of widows a growth murderer. So here's I mean,
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Speaker 2: I am familiar with this devil's pact you've made with
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Speaker 2: these corvids.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, oh corvid it's nice. We got a whistle
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Speaker 1: and everything. So, uh, local scoop here on the ground
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Speaker 1: is that they are these awesome trees, these awesome, magnificent
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Speaker 1: trees right in my area, and I befriended crows who
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Speaker 1: lived in those trees. However, the people who owned those
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Speaker 1: trees recently did some tree cutting work. They didn't cut
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Speaker 1: down the whole tree, they didn't stump it, but they
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Speaker 1: cut off the branches of these trees for safety and
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Speaker 1: power lines and stuff. They look what they've done to
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Speaker 1: our boy. Yeah, they mutilated it. And this scared away
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Speaker 1: our local murder of crows. However, as we were coming
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Speaker 1: into record today, Noel, the crows have returned and they
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Speaker 1: left me a thing shiny.
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Speaker 2: Objects perchance it's I mean it's object.
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Speaker 1: It's a button they found and they were like humans, right,
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Speaker 1: our favorite human from earlier, that guy is human, so
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Speaker 1: clearly he likes buttons.
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Speaker 2: Also, I mean, it's very clear that he's missing a
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Speaker 2: key button on his signature blazer.
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Speaker 1: That's what I'm sure, that's their thought process.
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Speaker 2: They clocked it. They're thoughtful creatures.
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Speaker 1: They're thoughtful and avengeful, and they're the best friends you
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Speaker 1: can have or the worst enemy, similar to like the mafia.
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Speaker 2: And that's because much like the Mafia, the crows remember.
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Speaker 1: The Crows remember. And so why are we telling you
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Speaker 1: this anecdote, folks, fellow ridiculous historians. It's because of this.
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Speaker 1: This is what occurred to us watching our tree friends
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Speaker 1: get dismembered. It wouldn't have happened if that tree owned itself.
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Speaker 2: Wait a minute, I don't understand now, I'm kidding, I'm
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Speaker 2: being coy.
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Speaker 1: I donder. Actually that's not sure.
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Speaker 2: I don't fully understand the logistics of it. We are,
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Speaker 2: in fact talking about a very particular tree, a legendary
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Speaker 2: located in our fair state of Georgia, in nearby Athens,
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Speaker 2: Georgia of University and football and of course music fame,
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Speaker 2: the University of Georgia Go Dogs is there. It's where
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Speaker 2: bands like R. E. M. And the B fifty two's
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Speaker 2: and more recently like the Elephant six collective Olivia Trimmer
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Speaker 2: control nutrient hotel, our buddy Ben Hackett. He lives there,
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Speaker 2: and he's big, he's legendary in his own right, and
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Speaker 2: he also owns himself, which makes sense from a human perspective.
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Speaker 2: We have agency as humans. Our lives are our own.
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Speaker 2: But how does that work for a tree? And is
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Speaker 2: a tree a living thing in this context or is
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Speaker 2: it like an inanimate object like can a couch own itself?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question, Noel, And I'm going to
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Speaker 1: lean on you for part of this because you've spent
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Speaker 1: more time in Athens, Georgia than I have. You know,
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Speaker 1: you're well acquainted with the music, seeing you move in
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Speaker 1: and out. We also want to give a shout out
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Speaker 1: to our pal Christopher Hasiotis, who is here in spirit.
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Speaker 2: Could I bury the lead and work in reverse and
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Speaker 2: never get to the thing. There's a tree there in
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Speaker 2: Athens that owns itself.
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Speaker 1: I'm just making sure.
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Speaker 2: I don't know if I dropped that particular breadcrumb yet,
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Speaker 2: so I did things a little out of order. But yes, indeed,
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Speaker 2: that is the question here. How does this tree actually
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Speaker 2: own itself?
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Speaker 1: Is it just the stuff of legend?
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Speaker 2: If it were to be true, how is it possible
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Speaker 2: We're going to get right into this little known legend
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Speaker 2: of the tree that owns itself, the story, whether true
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Speaker 2: or a tall tale, of the tree that owns itself.
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Speaker 1: There in Athens, Georgia. All right, here's this story, and
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Speaker 1: we want to shout out all of our fellow ridiculous
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Speaker 1: historians who have ever seen a tree that we really loved.
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Speaker 1: If you go to Athens, Georgia, over at the corner
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Speaker 1: of South Finley and Deering Street, you will see a
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Speaker 1: white oak. Or get this man, the technical name for
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Speaker 1: it quirkus alba.
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Speaker 2: It's quirky. Athens is quirky. Keep Athens weird, y'all.
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Speaker 1: So quirkus alba. This white oak, somehow, apparently, according to
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Speaker 1: the lore, has legal ownership of itself and all of
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Speaker 1: the land within eight feet of its base.
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Speaker 2: Now you know, this makes me think of immediately this
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Speaker 2: idea of like wealthy people dating their you know, as
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Speaker 2: their estates to their beloved pet or something like that.
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Speaker 1: Wasn't there a televangelist who deeded stuff to their dog.
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Speaker 2: That seems like something one of them might do. The
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Speaker 2: original tree in question here is thought to have begun
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Speaker 2: its lifespan, which, as we know, for trees can be
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Speaker 2: quite long in the mid sixteenth and late eighteenth century,
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Speaker 2: so the tree in question, the original tree in question,
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Speaker 2: is thought to have started its tree life, which as
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Speaker 2: we know, can be quite long. And Ben, I'm sure
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Speaker 2: that you're on the same page with me about this.
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Speaker 2: One thing I think we dig about trees is this
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Speaker 2: idea of there being a living history. You know, it's
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Speaker 2: this idea of just picturing what it was like all
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Speaker 2: around it, you know, lo those many years ago, when
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Speaker 2: it was just a little sapling. It was thought to
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Speaker 2: have begun its life in the mid sixteenth to late
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Speaker 2: eighteenth century, but was felled in nineteen forty two.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. However, as we'll see here a bit of
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Speaker 1: a spoiler, folks, a new tree was grown from one
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Speaker 1: of its acorns and then planted in the same location.
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Speaker 1: This current tree, as well fined, is sometimes referred to
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Speaker 1: as the sun of the tree that owns itself, which
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Speaker 1: feels like such a ful horror movie.
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Speaker 2: Hammer hammer horror horror, exactly like Brida Frankenstei And again,
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Speaker 2: so Athens, they're so quirky over there. And like I
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Speaker 2: was saying earlier, trees do tend to have quite long
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Speaker 2: lifespans along with their descendants, because every one of those
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Speaker 2: little acorns that get dropped has the potential to be carried,
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Speaker 2: you know, hither and yon and start a whole new tree.
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Speaker 1: Every acorn can become a great oak, just like you folks.
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Speaker 2: I know, isn't that like one of those like you're
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Speaker 2: doing great kind of cat hanging from the off of
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Speaker 2: a tree posters you'd see in like choir class when
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Speaker 2: you're in.
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Speaker 1: School, or like Andre three thousand said in the recent
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Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction for Outcast, it
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Speaker 1: starts in little rooms.
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Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah, we can relate to that. We've
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Speaker 2: started in little rooms too. Remember the little room we
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Speaker 2: used to podcast in with boarded up windows.
8:37
Speaker 1: Where podcasts begun.
8:39
Speaker 2: Heck, to this day, a lot of podcasts happen in
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Speaker 2: the littlest of rooms aka closets. And to give some
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Speaker 2: lifespan stats, a lot of these types of trees can
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Speaker 2: live up to four hundred and fifty years. So it
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Speaker 2: is a safe bet that the first tree had been
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Speaker 2: in that spot for quite a very long time, way
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Speaker 2: before there was any need for legal loopholes.
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Speaker 1: And Shenanigan ring Oo mentioned that part. Yes, So for
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Speaker 1: anybody who is not familiar, Yes, folks. Here in the
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Speaker 1: United States and indeed the world overall, it is unusual
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Speaker 1: for a tree to quote own itself. Trees are considered
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Speaker 1: like pretty much all other plant life, meaning they're not
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Speaker 1: typically recognized as legal entities with agency in the United States. Instead,
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Speaker 1: they're considered part and parcel of the land itself. So,
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Speaker 1: for instance, if like Max Nol and I decide to
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Speaker 1: buy a few acres in Tennessee as we build our
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Speaker 1: fallout bunker, our purchase is not just going to include
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Speaker 1: the actual surface, but the land beneath it, as well
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Speaker 1: as all of the plants and trees growing on it.
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Speaker 1: They don't get a say no, it's sort of a
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Speaker 1: packaged deal. Can we go in on this parcel of
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Speaker 1: land with our buddy, the Tennessee pal Yeah, yeah, of
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Speaker 1: course we'll include Dylan. Yes, yes, we must.
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Speaker 2: We're going to start our fallout doomsday bunker slash commune,
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Speaker 2: you know, for the end times.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we should have started a year ago. That was
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Speaker 1: the best time, but the second best time is today.
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Speaker 2: The second best time is always the present. There's no
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Speaker 2: second best better time than the present.
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Speaker 1: There we go so why is this story different. Well,
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Speaker 1: we looked into it, and as far as we can tell,
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Speaker 1: the earliest primary source confirmed record of this tale dates
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Speaker 1: back to a front page article in the Athens Weekly
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Speaker 1: Banner August twelfth, eighteen ninety, written by someone will never know,
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Speaker 1: an anonymous author. So someone just posted as anon, they're
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Speaker 1: in the Weekly Banner.
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Speaker 2: Which is just the most wholesome name for a small
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Speaker 2: town newspaper.
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Speaker 1: If I might say, I would say my favorite, my
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Speaker 1: favorite wholesome local newspaper name is picka yune. I don't
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Speaker 1: know what's good.
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Speaker 2: I also liked the plane dealer is another fun one,
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Speaker 2: and I think I like picka yun because it's just
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Speaker 2: such an unusual specific word. Anyway, So, according to this
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Speaker 2: anonymous author, who may have had a horse in the race,
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Speaker 2: here the tree what the tree in question was on
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Speaker 2: the property of a guy named Colonel William Henry Jackson.
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Speaker 2: And William Henry Jackson was a real person, is kind
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Speaker 2: of murky and was super duper duper connected. He was
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Speaker 2: the son of James Jackson, a Revolutionary War soldier who
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Speaker 2: later went on to become a congressman and then a senator.
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Speaker 2: And in the you know typical Southern trajectory of politics.
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Speaker 1: He then became the governor. Yeah, as you do. And
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Speaker 1: so our old Colonel Willie was also the brother of
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Speaker 1: another congressman. I need help on this name, Jebez Young Jackson,
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Speaker 1: jab e Z. I haven't met a Jebez.
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Speaker 2: In real haven'ts And in my mind I want to
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Speaker 2: make the jay a soft j and how to be
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Speaker 2: a Jabez?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
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Speaker 2: It just sounds like fun. It could go either way.
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Speaker 2: Jebez is another perfectly good version. And Colonel William Willy
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Speaker 2: Willy boy I was also the father of another James Jackson,
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Speaker 2: who himself would have quite the meteoric rise in politics.
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Speaker 2: He became a congressman and eventually the chief Justice of
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Speaker 2: George's Supreme Court.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, these things we can prove. However, these things we
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Speaker 1: can prove not necessarily the providence of the tree. But
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Speaker 1: to understand the story this pitch from the Athens Weekly banner,
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Speaker 1: we got to look a little closer into Colonel Willie.
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Speaker 1: So Colonel Willie's sounds like a euphemism.
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Speaker 2: Right, sounds like something that what Big Jumbo would have said.
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Speaker 1: Now, who was that?
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Speaker 2: Who was who was the big jumbo guy Lyndon Johnson,
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Speaker 2: Lyndon B. Johnson President, his old fella as big Jumbo.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's jugo. And would he have been
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Speaker 1: it was? It was definitely not Dumbo, You're right, it
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Speaker 1: was Jumbo. Would he have if he had not become
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Speaker 1: a politician or a president? Would Lyndon Johnson just have
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Speaker 1: been some creepy guy in his local town? So I
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Speaker 1: had a name for his Australia. Absolutely, absolutely he was.
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Speaker 1: He was a character consistent. So all right, here's the thing, folks.
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Speaker 1: We know that Colonel Willie was allegedly apparently a professor
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Speaker 1: at Uga. He was sometimes referred to as doctor Jackson
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Speaker 1: in reporting of the day, but we haven't proved that yet.
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Speaker 1: We have reached out to the University of Georgia who
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Speaker 1: asked them if they can verify any sort of tenure
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Speaker 1: or time spent teaching students. So we'll catch you up
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Speaker 1: when when we hear back. You know, it's funny.
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Speaker 2: I have been actually going to Athens a great deal
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Speaker 2: lately of a good friend of mine in front of
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Speaker 2: the show, Eric Kinlaw recently moved there and I.
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Speaker 1: Lived there years ago.
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Speaker 2: My kid went to school there for some years, and
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Speaker 2: I also grew up going to shows there, so it
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Speaker 2: is a really near and dear place to me. But
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Speaker 2: there's a lot of little legendary things there in Athens
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Speaker 2: that are connected to history, that are connected to the university,
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Speaker 2: and that are connected.
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Speaker 1: To music lore.
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Speaker 2: One of which was this really cool little soul food
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Speaker 2: restaurant called Weaver Deese, whose motto to this day it's
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Speaker 2: on their handwritten little sign is Automatic for the People,
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Speaker 2: which is of course the title of one of the
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Speaker 2: most popular and famous RAM albums. And I all the
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Speaker 2: time I've spent there, I only just when Eric moved there,
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Speaker 2: went and ate there, and it was phenomenal. Had a
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Speaker 2: Meeting three situation, the dude that runs it like the
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Speaker 2: guy in the Kitchen Classic, you know, southern soul food
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Speaker 2: Meeting three type joint.
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Speaker 1: And then I just found out a week or so
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Speaker 1: ago that it closed.
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Speaker 2: It is but at least I got to eat there once,
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Speaker 2: but legendary and sad that it went away.
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Speaker 1: So there are a lot of local legends in Athens
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Speaker 1: because it is such a phenomenal college town. You know,
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Speaker 1: there's the double barreled cannon, the university arch arsh, yeah,
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Speaker 1: and the tree that owns itself now is part of
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Speaker 1: this Well, another thing we can't prove about our buddy
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Speaker 1: Willie Jackson is the nature of his military service, nor
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Speaker 1: any publicly available records of how he attained the rank
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Speaker 1: of colonel.
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Speaker 2: Oh, Ben, you know it's another kind of facet of
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Speaker 2: Southern gentry. Your calling yourself the colonel. Well, of course, yeah,
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Speaker 2: you don't have to actually have obtained a rank of
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Speaker 2: colonel militarily speaking to go by the colonel, wouldn't you agree?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, they used to call me. They used to call
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Speaker 1: me colonel Angus. Don't we call your pops the colonel
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Speaker 1: sometimes he is?
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Speaker 2: Actually yeah, okay, he did attain the rank, so he
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Speaker 2: came by it honestly. But it's true we do think
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Speaker 2: of colonel as being somewhat of a Southern gentlemanly nicknames
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Speaker 2: And that's.
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Speaker 1: Isn't that weird how that happens in specifically the Southeastern
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Speaker 1: United States, not just with military rank, but with religious rank,
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Speaker 1: Like there will be people who call themselves Bishop so
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Speaker 1: and so, but you're not Catholic. I don't know. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: It's also like the murkiness of the term cousin when
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Speaker 2: it gets thrown around a lot as well, but that's
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Speaker 2: not just the same thing.
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Speaker 1: So what we do know is that our boy will
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Speaker 1: will H.
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Speaker 2: Jackson aka Colonel Willie, who definitely had big Willie style,
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Speaker 2: which I only just recently realized is somewhat of a euphemism.
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Speaker 1: In its own right.
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Speaker 2: Even though will Smith didn't need a cuss in his
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Speaker 2: radit cell records, he did love a good innuendo.
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Speaker 1: Yeah it's okay, man. It took me forever to figure
17:12
Speaker 1: out the main ingredient in soy sauce is indeed soy.
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Speaker 1: It's true. Yeah, and you know, will goody sauce, most
17:19
Speaker 1: of it's weak.
17:20
Speaker 2: Now that's true. You know what I love is a
17:21
Speaker 2: good mushroom soy sauce. I have one that I've been using.
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Speaker 2: And will Smith might might argue that he had had
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Speaker 2: no ill intent with that title, and then it was
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Speaker 2: entirely clean.
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Speaker 1: He had a will intent. I think you did so.
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Speaker 1: William H.
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Speaker 2: Jackson did own the property on the opposite side of
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Speaker 2: Deering Street that was adjacent to that tree. The plot
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Speaker 2: included the address two twenty six Deering Street as it
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Speaker 2: stands today, and in the early nineteenth century, it was
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Speaker 2: at that point just a lot with the designation of
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Speaker 2: number fourteen. The tree is located on a portion of
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Speaker 2: what had been lot number fifteen.
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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so there was proximity, right, And Colonel Willie
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Speaker 1: is living in his area with his wife Mildred, and
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Speaker 1: eventually along with a character named Ja Cobb. Don't memorize
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Speaker 1: the name because he never shows up again. Along with
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Speaker 1: this guy, they sold their property collectively. There's a lot
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Speaker 1: to a dude named doctor Malthus Ward, doctor Malthus. He
18:30
Speaker 1: sounds like a necromancer.
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Speaker 2: He does a little Malthusian perhaps, Yeah yeah, yeah, that
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Speaker 2: was in.
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Speaker 1: Eighteen thirty two, yeah, yeah, yeah, And this is the
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Speaker 1: same year that is cited on a local plaque as
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Speaker 1: being the date the tree got deeded to itself. If
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Speaker 1: you go to the Clark County real estate records, you'll
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Speaker 1: see there is no indication of when or from whom
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Speaker 1: Colonel Willie originally purchased the property. Of course, this helps
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Speaker 1: inform the legend.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 1: So, according to the story, our buddy will really loved
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Speaker 1: this frickin' tree. If you can, we do, let's give
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Speaker 1: it to you, you know, can you give us a
19:16
Speaker 1: real like Colonel Angus seen shoeing voice get get your
19:22
Speaker 1: Juli stars, get your jul up together and let's h
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Speaker 1: can we share this clip from the Athens Weekly banner.
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Speaker 2: Giving me the vapors there ben talking about Colonel Ankus.
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Speaker 2: Colonel Jackson had watched the tree grow from his childhood
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Speaker 2: and grew to love it almost as he would a human.
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Speaker 2: It's luxuriant foliage and sturdy limbs that often protected him
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Speaker 2: from the heavy rains. I'm mixing it up here a bit,
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Speaker 2: but I know you're nill out and out of its
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Speaker 2: highest branches. He had many a time gotten the eggs.
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Speaker 1: Of the feathered songstess.
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Speaker 2: He watched it growth, and when on reaching a rap
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Speaker 2: old age, he saw the tree standing and it's magnificent propultions.
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Speaker 2: And now I'm doing a little bit of a British thing.
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Speaker 2: I'm gonna coming back and coming back. He was pined
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Speaker 2: to think that after his death it would fall into
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Speaker 2: the hands of them what might destroy it.
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Speaker 1: I added, I liked it, so the God right, so
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Speaker 1: testify there So, according to this article, our boy, due
20:30
Speaker 1: to his close childhood association with this white oak or
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Speaker 1: Quercus alba, he he deeds the tree ownership of itself
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Speaker 1: and the surrounding land, and he does it in an
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Speaker 1: attempt to ensure that no one, including future family members,
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Speaker 1: will ever be able to knock it down.
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Speaker 2: Well, here's the question, and we might get into this,
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Speaker 2: We are going to get into this, the legal loophole
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Speaker 2: of it all. But it's like, if you don't leave
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Speaker 2: your property to an air, and you don't have an air,
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Speaker 2: what happens to it?
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Speaker 1: Does it just like.
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Speaker 2: Go to the county, like if there's no one there
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Speaker 2: to keep it up or because obviously this would also
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Speaker 2: require some dispensation or footnote for upkeep right, like if
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Speaker 2: the tree owns itself, the tree can't trim itself or
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Speaker 2: take care of the land around it. But yeah, maybe
21:28
Speaker 2: back to my original question, what does happen if, like
21:31
Speaker 2: I guess, is it then sold off? It's bitted on?
21:34
Speaker 2: Like I guess, I don't know the details of what
21:36
Speaker 2: happens when there is no air to pass property onto.
21:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little outside our scope because it varies
21:45
Speaker 1: from country to country and indeed from state to state.
21:50
Speaker 1: There are actually online just for a tangent here, there
21:55
Speaker 1: are websites you can check that will tell you if
21:58
Speaker 1: you are the rightful biological inheritor of the things. So
22:04
Speaker 1: usually it goes to the closest living relative before the
22:12
Speaker 1: state or big government takes possession. That can't happen if
22:15
Speaker 1: that doesn't end up working out like you said, with
22:17
Speaker 1: the closest you know, living relatives. And there's a term
22:20
Speaker 1: here that is getting used that it's new to me
22:22
Speaker 1: in in instasy, intestacy, intestacy. Yes, and the process, the
22:29
Speaker 1: legal process you're talking about of transferring it to this.
22:32
Speaker 2: Day is called escheatment. We're learning so many new, very
22:37
Speaker 2: esoteric legalese words today.
22:40
Speaker 1: Yes, just like ja copy. They may not come up again.
22:45
Speaker 1: But let's see if we can give ourselves bonus points
22:48
Speaker 1: for using those terms in cheatment and instensasy, in testasy, intestacy.
22:58
Speaker 2: In cheatment, okay, ineste the enn.
23:00
Speaker 1: If we can, if we can use those phrases, Max,
23:04
Speaker 1: I need you in on this. If we can use
23:06
Speaker 1: those phrases again organically like a tree by the end
23:11
Speaker 1: of this episode, we give ourselves eight hundred and twenty
23:17
Speaker 1: to eight hundred and thirty two bonus points.
23:19
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if it's possible, Ben, it's so specific,
23:22
Speaker 2: but hey, I'm on board.
23:24
Speaker 1: Let's see if it can happen. Look forward to it.
23:26
Speaker 2: I'm willing to play your redeer reindeer games.
23:29
Speaker 1: I love it. And I'm still mad at Matt for
23:33
Speaker 1: nagging me on a recent episode of stuff they don't
23:35
Speaker 1: want you to know what. I was like, I'll play
23:37
Speaker 1: your reindeer games. He's like, no, these are reindeer games too.
23:42
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, maybe he was just dead serious, you know.
23:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a serious guy, and please do check out
23:47
Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. You'll if you
23:50
Speaker 1: dig our show, you'll hopefully love that show. I usually
23:54
Speaker 1: say that NOL, but it's weird because we host that
23:58
Speaker 1: and create that show as well.
23:59
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, but I think there's some truth to that.
24:01
Speaker 2: If you dig this, you'll probably dig that. And actually,
24:04
Speaker 2: the next episode we're about to record for Ridiculous History
24:07
Speaker 2: very much would be right at home on stuff they
24:09
Speaker 2: don't want you to know. We're talking to a little
24:11
Speaker 2: a little bit of a true crime murder mystery, which
24:13
Speaker 2: is a little out out of the scope of what
24:15
Speaker 2: we usually do here, So look forward to that. I
24:17
Speaker 2: also involve something that's been in the news lately, Tail
24:19
Speaker 2: and all, yeah.
24:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's in the zeitgeist now. If you go to Athens,
24:26
Speaker 1: according to the story which and we could confirm this,
24:29
Speaker 1: you'll see this idea of deating a tree legal ownership
24:34
Speaker 1: of itself took place somewhere between eighteen twenty and eighteen
24:39
Speaker 1: thirty two. How do we know that there is a
24:41
Speaker 1: commemorative plaque on the tree's retaining wall that claims had
24:46
Speaker 1: attained an independence in eighteen thirty two? If I could
24:50
Speaker 1: chew a bit of scenery and sip a jewlup on
24:53
Speaker 1: this one, we'll give you the text. M Oh, that's mean, Julip.
24:58
Speaker 1: I'm kidding. It's iced coffee. But there we go. Four
25:01
Speaker 1: And in consideration, great little Bell, this tree and the
25:07
Speaker 1: great desire have for its protection fall time a colay,
25:13
Speaker 1: entire possession all itself and old land within eight feet
25:17
Speaker 1: of this tree roll side William heh Jackson h really.
25:26
Speaker 2: Odd to the way the lines are broken up in
25:29
Speaker 2: this one.
25:30
Speaker 1: It's just funny.
25:31
Speaker 2: We got four and in consideration and then line two
25:34
Speaker 2: of the Great Love I bear line three this tree
25:37
Speaker 2: and the Great's almost like it reads like a poem,
25:39
Speaker 2: and it is poetry, especially the way you recited it.
25:41
Speaker 1: Ben.
25:41
Speaker 2: So per that article, the actual deed in question uses
25:46
Speaker 2: the following language.
25:47
Speaker 1: I W. H.
25:48
Speaker 2: Jackson of the County of Clark in the Stathens Clark
25:51
Speaker 2: County of the one part, and the oak Tree of
25:55
Speaker 2: the County of Clark of the other part.
25:57
Speaker 1: Witness, I witness if that's the said W. H.
26:02
Speaker 2: Jackson for and in consideration of the great affection which
26:05
Speaker 2: she bears said tree, as stated in the Blackard, and
26:09
Speaker 2: his great desire to see it protected, has conveyed and
26:12
Speaker 2: by these presidents do convey unto the said oak tree
26:16
Speaker 2: entire possession of itself and of all land within eight
26:20
Speaker 2: feet of it on all sides or.
26:22
Speaker 1: Two point four meters. Right. Yeah, this is weird, Okay,
26:27
Speaker 1: So this is a thing that confused us. And just
26:29
Speaker 1: to be clear if this is an actual deed, what
26:33
Speaker 1: he's saying is that when he says Clark County Clerk
26:37
Speaker 1: of the one part, he's talking about one party and
26:40
Speaker 1: a negotiation, and he is the other part, Colonel Willie.
26:47
Speaker 1: So this art, this all comes to us from Athens
26:50
Speaker 1: Weekly Banner, and it was again written anonymously decades after
26:57
Speaker 1: this purported dedication back in the eighteen in eighteen thirty two.
27:02
Speaker 2: I love this idea of the oak tree having residency
27:04
Speaker 2: in Clark County. Like I just all of this reads
27:08
Speaker 2: like an elaborate prank.
27:09
Speaker 1: Also, I love the Southern idea to this field. Okay,
27:13
Speaker 1: so we discover all sorts of weird turns of phrases
27:17
Speaker 1: that we make up here. Seahorse teeth shut straight, seahorse teeth,
27:22
Speaker 1: shut your wet mouth, et cetera. One thing that I
27:28
Speaker 1: think would be really great for us to whip out
27:31
Speaker 1: if somebody's getting big for their breeches at a party
27:34
Speaker 1: is to say, tell me what you think of this
27:37
Speaker 1: stole is to say you still have lost possession of yourself?
27:41
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.
27:42
Speaker 1: You know it's funny, man.
27:43
Speaker 2: That makes that makes me think I meant to bring
27:45
Speaker 2: this up earlier. The idea of owning oneself or a
27:49
Speaker 2: self own is typically negative. It sort of means you
27:53
Speaker 2: like played yourself or you I use it a lot
27:55
Speaker 2: in playing Mario Kart, where if you hit yourself with
27:58
Speaker 2: your own green shell that is self.
28:00
Speaker 1: Own, or have an own goal when they bounce. Oh
28:04
Speaker 1: he bouncing. We're bouncing into a question that we've been
28:14
Speaker 1: teasing for a moment. Now, is this story actually true? Yeah?
28:21
Speaker 2: And I maybe tipped my hand a little bit where
28:25
Speaker 2: I fall on the issue. It does feel it does
28:27
Speaker 2: have big prank vibes to it or just kind of.
28:30
Speaker 1: I don't know.
28:30
Speaker 2: Again, Athens is a kooky place, even as back far
28:33
Speaker 2: back as this hit this history, So this idea of
28:37
Speaker 2: sort of like a quirky bit of a almost like
28:40
Speaker 2: a piece of satire. Right, So we do love a story,
28:44
Speaker 2: as do the people of Athens. The story of the
28:46
Speaker 2: tree that owns Itself is widely known, at least in
28:48
Speaker 2: the area, and is almost presented as fact. You know
28:51
Speaker 2: about the tree that owns itself? There, it is right there.
28:54
Speaker 2: It's like a bit of a tourist attraction. However, only
28:57
Speaker 2: one person, the anonymous author of the article in the
29:01
Speaker 2: Athens Banner Herald, I believe deeded to itself. He's the
29:06
Speaker 2: only one who ever apparently saw the deed to the tree,
29:11
Speaker 2: or claimed to claim to have seen that bit of paperwork,
29:15
Speaker 2: which is odd. And certainly if it isn't filed with
29:19
Speaker 2: the county or in some way you know, acknowledged and
29:22
Speaker 2: like the land records, then surely now this is going
29:25
Speaker 2: to hold up in court.
29:26
Speaker 1: Not to be a party pooper, but we'll get to that.
29:28
Speaker 2: So most writers acknowledge the deed has either been lost
29:31
Speaker 2: or no longer exists, which I guess is the same
29:33
Speaker 2: as being lost. Maybe it was it was burned or something,
29:37
Speaker 2: you know, flushed shredded, if it ever did in the
29:40
Speaker 2: first place.
29:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the badger the bag, that's the pickle of it.
29:46
Speaker 1: Because we're we're not gonna doct anybody, but a good
29:50
Speaker 1: friend of ours, good friend of the show, makes a
29:53
Speaker 1: living hunting down old deeds and this.
29:58
Speaker 2: Lot of history in them, in them.
29:59
Speaker 1: Papers, a lot of weird names too.
30:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, we love it when Frank sends us a screenshot
30:04
Speaker 2: of some weird and take. Just no, it didn't docks
30:08
Speaker 2: them too hard, unless you worry he's doing anybody. Whatever
30:11
Speaker 2: he sends us, he redacts, he.
30:13
Speaker 1: Does, he does.
30:17
Speaker 2: Information, but sometimes there's some cookie names that he comes across.
30:21
Speaker 2: And some of these deeds are so old that they
30:24
Speaker 2: haven't even been scanned into digital resources or into digital
30:29
Speaker 2: you know, searchable libraries. So a lot of times for
30:32
Speaker 2: super old stuff, our buddy will have to go to
30:34
Speaker 2: you know, a physical courthouse and like dig through these archives.
30:39
Speaker 1: And find, you know, an old scroll of parchment that's
30:43
Speaker 1: I love always said part.
30:44
Speaker 2: Of it I love it and we should keep it,
30:46
Speaker 2: and I'm astly going to say it that way from
30:48
Speaker 2: this day. Hence, this is where a thing like this
30:51
Speaker 2: where it to existed, which should should have been filed right.
30:55
Speaker 1: Right right, unless there was a courthouse fire or something.
30:58
Speaker 1: But regardless, even if you find the deed, it would
31:02
Speaker 1: not have legal grav toss. They wouldn't have legal bearing
31:07
Speaker 1: because under common law or what we just say, let's
31:13
Speaker 1: just say it as commonly understood law. To be a
31:17
Speaker 1: recipient of a piece of property in the United States,
31:21
Speaker 1: one must have the legal capacity to receive such property.
31:26
Speaker 1: It has to be delivered to and accepted by the recipient.
31:31
Speaker 1: This is impossible for a tree to do at present.
31:35
Speaker 2: Oh, I should have talked to that doctor Seusky what's
31:37
Speaker 2: his name. He speaks for the trees. He had a axe.
31:41
Speaker 2: He could have been their interpreted because he speaks for
31:44
Speaker 2: the trees and he could have represented them in the
31:45
Speaker 2: court of law.
31:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like doctor Doolittle for plants. Anyway, we do
31:51
Speaker 1: know Jackson. Here's where it gets even more murky. So
31:55
Speaker 1: we do know that Colonel Willie Jackson did live near
31:59
Speaker 1: the White Oak. We can prove that he lived there
32:03
Speaker 1: for at least four years when he was a young
32:07
Speaker 1: man and he was married, because we know he was
32:09
Speaker 1: living there with his wife, but he had actually not
32:12
Speaker 1: grown up there. He grew up nearby in Jefferson County.
32:16
Speaker 1: So it is diplomatically put extremely unlikely that he would
32:21
Speaker 1: have any cherished child who are memories of the oak
32:25
Speaker 1: because he simply was not there.
32:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would typically be reserved for a stately tree
32:32
Speaker 2: that might have grown in the backyard or at the
32:34
Speaker 2: very least in a nearby, you know, meadow from a
32:39
Speaker 2: young kid, because he is not going to be wandering
32:41
Speaker 2: off to other counties as.
32:43
Speaker 1: A young lad. So this wouldn't hold up in court.
32:46
Speaker 2: But the question then becomes, where is the benefit of
32:50
Speaker 2: like really openly challenging a lot of this stuff? Oh yeah,
32:54
Speaker 2: it would be kind of a move, a grinch like move, absolutely.
32:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, be so means spirited. Everybody would be confused and
33:05
Speaker 1: irritated by you, including the judge. By the way, if
33:08
Speaker 1: it went to if it went to that level, if
33:11
Speaker 1: you go to Athens Clark County today, you'll see that
33:15
Speaker 1: they confirmed the tree is in what they call the
33:18
Speaker 1: right of way and is quote accepted for care by
33:22
Speaker 1: municipal authorities. So to your earlier questional the tree clean
33:28
Speaker 1: sun of Tree, the tree is taken care of by
33:33
Speaker 1: the local city and county government. And if you go
33:38
Speaker 1: to the adjacent property there you'll see everybody is kind
33:43
Speaker 1: of pitched in. They're stewards who help take care of
33:46
Speaker 1: the tree that owns itself. I want to give a
33:49
Speaker 1: weird specific shout out to something called the Athens Junior
33:54
Speaker 1: Ladies Garden Club. They're the primary advocate of the tree.
33:59
Speaker 1: That's right.
34:00
Speaker 2: They tend to its needs and make sure it's trimmed
34:04
Speaker 2: and watered and all that there are lacks. They are indeed,
34:07
Speaker 2: they speak for the tree that owns itself. And they also,
34:12
Speaker 2: you know, tracked down another small tree that was grown
34:16
Speaker 2: from an acorn taken from the original tree, and that
34:19
Speaker 2: was what led to if I'm not mistaken, then the
34:21
Speaker 2: son of tree.
34:22
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, So even before the original tree that owns
34:28
Speaker 1: itself passed away, the local government said, you know what,
34:35
Speaker 1: is this technically legal? Who cares? We all love trees.
34:40
Speaker 1: And this carried on after the death of the original tree,
34:45
Speaker 1: which is sometimes called the Jackson Oak. As we sat
34:48
Speaker 1: up in the beginning on October ninth, nineteen forty two.
34:53
Speaker 1: This tree, which was estimated to be two hundred to
34:56
Speaker 1: four hundred years old. We need some dendo chronology to
35:00
Speaker 1: verify this, which is the study of tree rings. The
35:04
Speaker 1: rumor has it, isn't it a Dell Song study of
35:10
Speaker 1: tree rings? Rumor has it? I'm sure it is, and
35:14
Speaker 1: her other off her album Dendo Chronology. So yeah, So
35:18
Speaker 1: the tree was not hewn down by humans. It fell
35:23
Speaker 1: as a result of a windstorm, or it may have
35:26
Speaker 1: already died and its roots were routing. And as you said,
35:30
Speaker 1: our friends at the Junior Ladies Garden Club, about four
35:34
Speaker 1: years later they tracked down a smaller tree, kind of
35:38
Speaker 1: a sapling status tree that was grown from an acorn
35:43
Speaker 1: taken from the original tree. And then they teamed up
35:48
Speaker 1: with a boffin at the College of Agriculture, Yeah, real aghead,
35:53
Speaker 1: and a tree aficionado named Roy Bowden, and.
35:58
Speaker 2: This little tree, little sap as you said, Ben, was
36:01
Speaker 2: transplanted to the location of the original tree that owned itself.
36:06
Speaker 2: It's for bear. A couple months later, there was a
36:09
Speaker 2: ceremony hell featuring the mayor of Athens at the time,
36:12
Speaker 2: Robert L. McWhorter, and to commemorate the occasion. They established
36:17
Speaker 2: a new plaque that is there to this day.
36:21
Speaker 1: You want to read that one for us man, Absolutely,
36:23
Speaker 1: the tree that owns itself And this is in the
36:26
Speaker 1: same weird formatting that we talked about earlier. The lines
36:30
Speaker 1: are odds, right, it must they must be writing it
36:33
Speaker 1: in a well, in a way that suits the designer
36:36
Speaker 1: of the Yeah, I don't like we have to write
36:38
Speaker 1: into the cube versus that's probably true. Yeah, yeah, the
36:40
Speaker 1: tree that owns itself Quercus alba, deeded to itself by
36:44
Speaker 1: Colonel William H. Jackson circa eighteen thirty two. This sciad
36:49
Speaker 1: of the original tree was planted by the Junior Ladies
36:52
Speaker 1: Garden Club in nineteen forty six. National Register of Historic
36:57
Speaker 1: Places nineteen seventy five, Athens Historical Landmark nineteen eighty eight.
37:04
Speaker 2: Now we've got landmark status, historical landmark status that people
37:09
Speaker 2: are now referring to this, I mean people in the
37:11
Speaker 2: know as the sun of the tree that owns itself,
37:15
Speaker 2: assuming and believing the tale that it is. In fact,
37:18
Speaker 2: I think this is the part that likely is true.
37:20
Speaker 2: The original trees air. So now you can take a tour.
37:26
Speaker 2: There's a couple of fun self guided tours that you
37:29
Speaker 2: can take in Athens. The Athens Clark County Welcome Center
37:32
Speaker 2: will hook you up with the literature to do that.
37:35
Speaker 2: You might also see there's a famous train trestle, The
37:41
Speaker 2: Murmur Trestle has something to do with ra Em again.
37:44
Speaker 2: And then there's also like an Athens Music Walk of Fame,
37:46
Speaker 2: much like the Hollywood Walk of Fame, with like plaques
37:48
Speaker 2: of different musical luminaries from there. It's really really rich
37:52
Speaker 2: in its history and its culture and all that stuff.
37:55
Speaker 1: I want to go back. We should call Christopher Osiota,
37:58
Speaker 1: so I want to go hang out there. Back out.
38:00
Speaker 1: Also catch up with Eric about Force Ghost. Yeah that's
38:03
Speaker 1: a band, right, Yeah, that's right.
38:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're actually doing a new music project together
38:09
Speaker 2: we have started messing with and that's part of the
38:11
Speaker 2: reason I've been going there a lot.
38:12
Speaker 1: So it's been a lot of fun, dope. And we
38:15
Speaker 1: also want to note folks that while there is one
38:19
Speaker 1: official the sun of the tree that owns itself, a
38:22
Speaker 1: lot of people took acorns from the original tree and
38:27
Speaker 1: from its air and planted their.
38:30
Speaker 2: Own such as trees. Right, so cool, super cool. Yeah,
38:34
Speaker 2: I love the idea. Of like an heirloom thing, right,
38:36
Speaker 2: that's sort of what that means. I think if you
38:38
Speaker 2: take seeds from a tomato or a plant and then
38:42
Speaker 2: you replant them, that becomes.
38:43
Speaker 1: Like an heirloom version.
38:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's so neat the way that stuff can
38:47
Speaker 2: again be part of history.
38:49
Speaker 1: Did you know that for a few decades back, or
38:53
Speaker 1: this continues now for quite some time, especially in the
38:57
Speaker 1: southern US, there have been people who, of their own
39:01
Speaker 1: volition did deep forensic food way research to recover lost
39:09
Speaker 1: types of rice for tomatoes. Carol, how does that work?
39:16
Speaker 1: It's an episode for a New Day Science and a
39:21
Speaker 1: lot of legwork, a lot of detective stuff. We can't
39:26
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts about this, folks. We do
39:29
Speaker 1: want to shout out little town in Alabama where another
39:33
Speaker 1: tree owns itself. And I'm not rolling my eyes too
39:38
Speaker 1: hard here. I think it's really cool that the local
39:40
Speaker 1: government said technically no, legally nah, but everybody be cool.
39:49
Speaker 2: This is why we can't have nice things, or if
39:51
Speaker 2: you live in Athletes, Georgia, why we can have nice
39:53
Speaker 2: things because people are just cool.
39:55
Speaker 1: So here's a question as we end for you, Max
39:59
Speaker 1: and all our fellow ridiculous historians. Gentlemen, if you could
40:03
Speaker 1: give one non human, non animal thing or object the
40:11
Speaker 1: right to own itself, what would it be? Now? It
40:15
Speaker 1: could be a plant. It could also be an inanimate
40:17
Speaker 1: object that you love.
40:19
Speaker 2: You said it in the top bend couch, the couch,
40:22
Speaker 2: this couch, this couch.
40:25
Speaker 1: Here, ye, here, I know Christian Brown hereby here by? Uh?
40:33
Speaker 1: What emancipates my couch?
40:36
Speaker 2: That way they can press charges against jd Vance when
40:39
Speaker 2: he gets up to Canery.
40:41
Speaker 1: Oh, here we go, Uh all right, Max? What about you? Oh?
40:45
Speaker 1: In my car is Sylvia? There you go? Okay, I
40:48
Speaker 1: love a car with the name. Okay, first chair Sylvia. That's, however,
40:52
Speaker 1: refer to her.
40:53
Speaker 2: As long as it's fully paid off, Max, Okay, until
40:56
Speaker 2: that point belongs to the bank.
40:58
Speaker 1: I ran into Sylvia back. We did our research for
41:01
Speaker 1: the waffle House episode, which is on the way right, folks,
41:05
Speaker 1: you're gonna larn a lot about Waffle Alie, and we
41:08
Speaker 1: can't wait to be there with you. We also can't
41:12
Speaker 1: wait too, as Noel so beautifully teased explore the strange
41:17
Speaker 1: story of the Tayland All murders with our research associate
41:21
Speaker 1: Dylan in the meantime, big big thanks to you for
41:24
Speaker 1: tuning in. Big thanks to our super producer Max Williams
41:28
Speaker 1: and all our friends in Athens, Georgia or in Athens, Tennessee,
41:33
Speaker 1: or in Athens, Greece, or in Athens, Ohio or in Athens, Ohio.
41:38
Speaker 2: Which is also a college town. I believe I went
41:40
Speaker 2: there once. Yeah, and tease thanks to Christoph Fraciotas. We
41:43
Speaker 2: would love to come kick it with you there in Athens,
41:45
Speaker 2: Georgia and East Jeff Coats both here in spirit, Alex
41:48
Speaker 2: Williams who composed our theme.
41:50
Speaker 1: Doctor Rachel Big Spinach Lance, as well as a J
41:54
Speaker 1: Bahamas Jacobs, and our own guy that owns himself pretty often,
42:01
Speaker 1: pretty regularly in a Mario Kart sense, that is Jonathan
42:05
Speaker 1: Strickland Ak the Quiztor. We'll see you next time, folks.
42:15
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
42:19
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.