Latest / The Twin History Podcast / OJ Simpson: The Trial of the Century – Part 1

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OJ Simpson: The Trial of the Century – Part 1 · The Twin History Podcast

0:01
The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
0:06
twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
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moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
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the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
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asking why any of this actually matters, alongside Johnny
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McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
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Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipt, Every week
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they invite listeners to pull up a chair as they unpack some of
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history's greatest tales, The ones you think you know, the
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ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit different when
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told by them. Enjoy.
1:25
Welcome back to the Twin History podcast.
1:28
So you're saying welcome back and that's presuming that we
1:30
still have listeners after the 1st 4 episodes or we had any
1:34
listeners to begin with? Yeah, of course, perhaps we
1:37
didn't. So.
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Or we never will. But anyway, we're here and we'll
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continue to discuss these historical events.
1:46
It's just like talking in an echo chamber.
1:48
It definitely is. Go ahead.
1:50
But today we'll be discussing OJ Simpson and, well, I'd say we
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just dive straight into it. I would say though, is OJ like
2:00
historical or is it modern studies?
2:02
And it probably has modern historical because anything
2:06
after like when a 25 years is seen as historical because we
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were teaching our S twos about 911 and and and they had never
2:19
liked they'd never heard of it. This is in high school, right?
2:22
Yeah, in high school, high school history.
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And they, they'd never heard of it.
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They. 'D Never heard of 911.
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Yeah, which is maybe a good thing.
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Like the rest tours, I mean, they're like 1213 years old, but
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it was seen as something that would be historical.
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So if that's historical. Obviously the OJ Simpson case is
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historical. Well, it has to be.
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I mean, the murder took place on June 12th, 1994.
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So if 911's history, then OJ Simpson's murder trail is
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history, of course. We just need to put it into that
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context. OK, that's fair enough.
2:56
And with with OJ, I mean, what made them such a beloved figure
3:00
at the time of these murders? Well before the murders
3:03
happened, obviously he was a. A football and legend, an
3:07
American football legend. We won't pretend to know
3:09
anything about American football.
3:11
We know he played for the Buffalo Bills.
3:13
We know he played for the the 49ers.
3:16
He finished his career at the 49ers.
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He was like a major star in college.
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I think he went to UCLA, didn't he?
3:23
For college? I'm sure he did.
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So he he absolutely excelled at college football and he won the
3:29
Heisman Trophy in college. So he was primed from an early
3:34
age to be like a football star. But apparently when he first
3:38
went to Buffalo, he really struggled with, I mean, he was
3:41
from California, so he really struggled with the climate
3:45
because obviously Buffalo was just outside New York.
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And I mean, New York might be sweltered in the summer, but in
3:51
the winter it's like it's almost as cold, probably as cold as
3:56
Scotland. But apparently there was a coach
3:58
change, coaching change and that coach like Som as a star that he
4:05
should have been. So played him in his proper
4:07
possession, whatever that was. If we're speaking about football
4:10
or soccer as they call it, like we could definitely have a
4:14
discussion on that. But.
4:15
And after that, he became the star they always thought he'd
4:18
become. But you, you said to yourself
4:21
how difficult it is to go from college football tenant the NFL.
4:26
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember seeing a
4:28
documentary on on a kid who was a college football star.
4:32
Can't remember his name was Zacky or something.
4:34
I think his name was. And he, he was a star in
4:38
college. His father, there's like the
4:41
whole story that he'd never been to McDonald's, had never had a
4:45
Big Mac. His father had been training him
4:48
for the NFL from the age of five.
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But when he got to the NFL, he was, he was not like basically
4:55
he didn't fulfil the promise. And there were rumours he was on
4:58
heroin. So that one OK.
5:00
Let's hope he was on heroin, boy.
5:03
When you speak about this, it might be like the last Boy Scout
5:06
when, what's his name, Billy Ray goes.
5:09
He's like taking cocaine before the game and he goes along and
5:12
like shoots. Everyone on the field to get his
5:15
touchdown. Well, wouldn't it be more like
5:16
trade in places when the the Dukes man is swallowed up by the
5:21
the. Yeah, so.
5:25
But yeah, so OG was a football legend and he also was a movie
5:30
star. But he in many ways, he broke
5:35
the the collar barrier, right? He did.
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I mean, he became like a major star in TV commercials.
5:44
And at this time, you have to remember OJ started his football
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career in the 60s. So even though we're out of
5:50
segregation, the Civil Rights Act has been passed, there's
5:54
still huge tensions in America between blacks and whites.
5:59
And OJ crossed that line and became a star with white
6:04
America. And he like he did the
6:07
commercials for Hertz. Hertz, Yep, he was like a star
6:11
for Hertz commercials, which became a huge success and just
6:16
showed OJ like running through airports trying to catch his
6:20
Hertz like hired car and stuff. And even now, I mean, you look
6:25
at it now, I mean, I don't really watch commercials now.
6:28
We've got all the like right wing idiots in tears over like
6:34
interracial families and stuff in commercials is like, did you
6:38
even, why do you even care about commercials?
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But even now, the Hertz commercials are still
6:43
incredible. Yeah, they, they are extremely
6:46
well done and yeah, well, well put together.
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And OJ was clearly a usually charismatic man.
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He was as, as we said, he crossed the colour line and.
6:56
Became a star in white America, which wasn't always easy for
7:01
black athletes to do so. Even today, it's not that easy.
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I mean, there there's still, yeah, there's still the idea
7:10
that like a black athlete is a purely like physical entity and
7:14
not an analytical 1. So like just so, I mean, we've
7:19
had the whole thing recently with Jude Bellingham and like a
7:23
lot of negative headlines in the English media about having but
7:26
sort like Ian Wright, the former Arsenal and England striker
7:30
said. It is purely like racism or
7:33
subconscious racism on the part of the journalists who have been
7:36
calling out Jude Bellingham. Like a black athlete should just
7:40
accept his law, keep his head down, keep his fucking mouth
7:43
shut and just. Play the game, Play the game.
7:46
Yeah, and Jude Bellingham, for those who don't know, as a black
7:50
English midfielder who plays for Real Madrid in Spain.
7:54
So. But back to OJ.
7:56
So it's as it's fair to say he was a massive star at this point
8:04
before the murders and obviously he became something of a pariah
8:09
after the murders, if I get that word out.
8:11
But of. Course.
8:12
Yeah, but let's talk about OJ and.
8:17
Well, one of the victims, Nicole Brown system.
8:19
Well, before we go into that, why don't we like cover OJ's
8:23
career in the 80s? Because he became a film star in
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the 80s, don't he? We can't do that.
8:28
But I thought you didn't know anything about OJ's career in
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the 80s. That's why I'm kidding.
8:33
Let's go. We can speak about OJ's career
8:36
in the 80s. Well, he started doing films in
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the 70s, don't he? But it wasn't until we did the
8:41
Naked Gun. I think the first Naked Gun came
8:43
out in 1988 where he became like a a fully fledged, you don't
8:49
maybe don't want to say star, but a fully fledged film
8:52
personality. And he's very good, as one of
8:56
his friends says. And and OJ made in America,
9:00
which a lot of our source material has come from, which
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like is probably, you could argue the best documentary ever
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made, certainly the best sports documentary that's.
9:10
One of the best. As one of his friends says, and
9:13
that Peter Himes was the director of Time Cop Capricorn 1
9:18
Capricorn one. OJ was in, OJ was in.
9:20
It was about the the men landed hopes.
9:22
But in this case, they were going to Mars, I believe.
9:24
Yeah. So they can do that.
9:26
And a few years when Elon Musk can pretend that we're on Mars
9:30
when we're in his, like, backyard somewhere.
9:33
But the. Yeah.
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So as his friend said, like OJ was genuinely a funny performer.
9:40
He was a comedic performer like you look at someone like.
9:43
This year my wife and I watched the fantastic Charlie Sheen
9:47
documentary. Definitely not watching that.
9:50
No, it was very good, very good, very moving at times.
9:53
Although Charlie, there's very, very little attrition there.
9:56
Contrition, I should say, on Charlie's part, but it's still
10:00
very entertaining. And The thing is, you can argue
10:03
whether Charlie was a great dramatic actor.
10:05
I would say he wasn't Like Oliver Stone said when Wall
10:09
Street came out, all the critics were saying like, Charlie's a
10:12
bit stiff. Is he not in the role?
10:13
And Oliver Stone said he likes, he likes his young men to be
10:18
stiff. But but the the.
10:22
Yeah. But you can't argue that Charlie
10:24
Sheen is not a good comedic actor.
10:26
So OJ was a great comedic actor, I would say.
10:28
And The Naked Gun, the first one I would say is the funniest like
10:32
film ever made. The funniest film Yeah, I see
10:36
it's the best the funniest spoof, maybe the funniest movie
10:39
ever. I'd say it's the best comedy
10:41
ever made, and OJ is a large part of of that.
10:44
OK, well, that's a debate for another day.
10:47
I there's no way that's the funniest film I've ever made.
10:51
But anything more Todd on O JS career in?
10:55
The 80s well, just it was mainly just film.
10:59
His football career had went, went Diane Hunter and he'd
11:02
retired and he was mainly just, yeah, he was doing the Naked Gun
11:06
film. So he's a very wealthy and a
11:10
very famous man at this point in time.
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Yeah, he's very wealthy. Obviously was business smart.
11:16
He got involved in things that made him a lot of money.
11:19
He was living in one of the most exclusive parts of Los Angeles,
11:23
Brentwood, Brentwood. He had, I mean, he had like a
11:27
fantastic life. And I mean, it had come through
11:31
his business acronym and also for his sports career.
11:35
And you, you have to, if you're going to give them credit for
11:39
it, you do need to give them credit for that.
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Because how many like sports stars, particularly black sports
11:45
stars at that time and earlier burnt for their money, I mean.
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Black sports stars. It's not the Chris Rock bit.
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I mean, if you. Look, it says when a when a
11:54
white man gets money is his family in the next 100
11:57
generations of his family are welfare.
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When a black man gets money, it's countdown to being bro.
12:03
Well, I don't agree with that, but if you look at someone like
12:05
Joe Lewis, there are there are, one of his biographers said.
12:10
Like it's more difficult for people who have never had money
12:13
or ever been around money to be good with money when they become
12:17
rich. And like when Joe Lewis became
12:19
rich, he was just hopeless with his money.
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And that that's why he ultimately like his life and
12:27
career spiralled after he retired.
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But anyway, that's a different. Argument so let let's move on I
12:33
always remember with Joe Lewis so his his son saying on a
12:36
documentary that the IRS should have let Joe away with an unpaid
12:42
tax bill and say well life doesn't work like that if you
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don't pay your taxes in. No, no, it was because like the
12:48
the tax, apparently the maybe someone will crack me on this.
12:52
Apparently the tax he didn't pay was on the like exhibition he
12:56
did for the Navy and the, and the Second World War.
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He did an exhibition, boxing exhibition for the Navy, made
13:04
like millions of dollars for the US Navy through this, through
13:08
this exhibition. And he didn't pay, he didn't
13:12
file the proper tax return on that.
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So, well, we should have, we should have had an accountant
13:16
doing it for. Yeah, he should have.
13:17
Of course he should have. And I mean, you, you have to
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applaud Ronald Reagan for Bury and Joe Lewis and Arlington
13:25
Cemetery. And I've actually, I went when
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my wife and I were, again, we're on the US East Coast last year.
13:32
Seems like we're in every US East Coast state.
13:34
We weren't, but we went. We went to Virginia and we
13:38
walked into Arlington. It was like, it must have been
13:41
like 35° that day. So we walked, walked from
13:44
Georgetown to Arlington, which wasn't very clever, but not
13:48
primarily. I wanted to go there to see
13:51
Kennedy's the Eternal Flame, which I mean, some arsenal
13:57
ruined my picture in front of it because we were, we were
14:01
considerate to other tourists who wanted to get a picture
14:04
alone in front of it. But when I, I got my picture,
14:08
someone was stood like right behind me.
14:10
Like no, no, it's fine. When we got there, there were
14:13
like Boy Scouts, a group of Boy Scouts with their scout leader
14:18
and we stood back and let them take their pictures.
14:21
Then we went up, but whoever was behind me just came right up my
14:25
ass. Basically been in a rush that
14:27
day. He may have been in a rush, but
14:29
we, we also, we went and Arlington is huge.
14:32
So you're going to like, I mean, we didn't go to LBGSLBJS
14:38
tombstone because you're talking like it was another half mile,
14:42
like 3 thirds of a mile. So we into Arlington Cemetery.
14:46
Oh, have you? OK, Well, you're kind of sat
14:48
there with an awestruck look on your face like you'd never been
14:51
before. But we, we, we went to Joe
14:53
Lewis's tombstone, which was over to OJ's grave in Arlington.
15:00
Well, he wasn't dead yet, and I'm sure.
15:02
When he died last year, no one was petitioning to put OJ in
15:05
Arlington Cemetery. Well, you never know.
15:08
Maybe someone will it if we get back to OJ.
15:12
And so he meets Nicole Brown in 1977.
15:18
It's fair to say they had a bit of a turbulent relationship.
15:23
Yeah, it was very turbulent. Obviously it was.
15:25
OJ was abusive. He was he would coerce her into
15:30
doing things she didn't want to do.
15:31
He was controlling. He was just a horrible, horrible
15:36
guy. But obviously the the country or
15:40
the world that know about that. They had a massive flare up, I
15:43
think New Year's Eve 1989, where the police were called like they
15:48
came out and your. Friend Mark Forman came out.
15:51
I don't know if that that was that day.
15:53
He definitely came out another day before, before the murders.
15:57
But yeah, so he was, I mean, he, he basically, he brutalised her.
16:03
And that is funny. Well, it's not funny.
16:05
But I remember when I was in primary school and though J case
16:08
was on and I, I remember I wanted them to get off because
16:13
because he was black and we'll definitely get into the racial
16:15
dynamics around the case. So I was like one of the fewer
16:19
black kids, as you know, because you're at the same fucking
16:22
school, one of the few, one of the fewer black kids in the
16:25
school. So they, they all wanted them to
16:28
like go to prison and, and I wanted them to be, I wanted them
16:33
to be acquitted because he was black.
16:34
But obviously at that time, I mean, I'm like 11-12 years old,
16:38
I know absolutely nothing about the case or nothing about the
16:42
history between them. So I.
16:45
Remember watching clips of the case and when Jodie Cochran with
16:51
the golf and I always remember thinking, oh, that means OJ's
16:54
innocent, doesn't it? I think there's some idiots who
16:57
are are fully grown men who believe that now.
17:00
But at the time, as you said, we were 11-12 years old and you're
17:03
like, OK, OJ's obviously that do it.
17:04
That glove doesn't fit his hand. And that was the murderer's
17:07
glove. We, we won't get into that now.
17:09
I mean, I, I, I've got a whole thing on that.
17:11
If you want to get into that now, we can.
17:13
But we want, we'll get into it later.
17:15
But with. Well, Mark Forman definitely
17:18
showed up at one of these domestic call outs.
17:21
Yeah, I don't think it was the one in 89 because they were,
17:24
they were always out there at LAPD because the Nicole was
17:28
always calling the police. And that Mark Forman's motto is
17:32
you don't, you don't have to shoot him.
17:34
He didn't have the got, he didn't have a gun.
17:36
And what he he always said is why the fuck did he run?
17:39
So if Martin Furman saw someone run, he would ship them in the
17:42
back happily. But yeah, that's, that's
17:44
obviously a joke. We'll, we'll get into Furman.
17:47
Furman. Furman was a scumbag, absolutely
17:50
a scumbag. But we'll get into that later.
17:52
We'll get into that. All all I would say is we
18:32
Nicole, a lot of idiots online will even in the OJ case like
18:40
will criticise Nicole for staying so long but we should
18:45
applaud her for finally leaving them because a lot of women and
18:49
domestic abuse situations, they stay out of fear, out of
18:54
necessity. But in that situation,
18:56
regardless of their motivation for staying, you should never
19:00
ever blame the women for staying in the situation.
19:03
I remember one of the OJ jurors said that she didn't have
19:07
respect for Nicole because she stayed there.
19:10
And what was her words like? She's.
19:12
Got her ass worked. Which is just an absolutely
19:15
despicable comment but well, I agree.
19:18
But these these beliefs prevail even to today.
19:23
Yeah, that's what I was saying, for instance.
19:26
In the recent P Diddy case, a few of the jurors said that what
19:31
if Cassie wasn't being abused by him what she clearly was.
19:34
I mean, there's a video of her being beaten by him in a hotel
19:37
lobby. Then why did she go back to him
19:40
as well? It's the toughest thing for a
19:43
domestic abuse victim to do. Is leave, yeah and not go ahead?
19:49
No, obviously. Yeah, they were.
19:52
I saw that documentary and it's basically victim blaming, isn't
19:55
it? So they're blaming the victim
19:58
for being in the situation when they're the one who's being
20:02
abused, they're the one who's fearful for their lives, for
20:07
their children. He yeah, I I know essentially
20:11
when domestic abuse, well, when a female leaves that a
20:17
relationship, a lot of times it ends in the.
20:21
Her partner taking retribution in some way.
20:24
Yeah. And we were good.
20:25
We're going to get into that. I I was thinking that on the way
20:27
over these things normally and with the guy in prison or the.
20:32
The woman dead, I mean. I know, I know of a case, I
20:35
won't say how I know this of a a man and a woman who were in that
20:40
type of relationship. The man was beating the woman
20:42
up. This was in Scotland.
20:43
And the woman left him and she met someone else and the man
20:47
broke into her house when she wasn't there.
20:50
And he, he covered her dog in tarps and white, you know, and
20:57
basically tortured her dog to death just to get back at her
21:00
because she had. Jesus Christ, man, what the
21:03
hell? I'm an animal lover.
21:05
Yeah, you could be an animal lover.
21:07
I'm just saying that's these things happen.
21:10
So the idea that a woman should the reason, like the idea that
21:15
because she stayed it means that things must have been OK, that
21:19
is just ridiculous. Yeah, I agree.
21:21
But anyway, OJ doesn't meet Nicole in Buffalo.
21:25
He meets her in in LA or in California and on the night,
21:32
let's just get into the murder. So the night of the murder can
21:36
can you walk us through the timeline of June 12th, 1994?
21:41
This was the night of the murders, I should say, not
21:43
murder. And what?
21:44
What was OJ's alibi? Well, OJ's, I mean, basically
21:50
OJ, the family were out, Nicole and the kids and Nicole's
21:57
parents, I think her mother was definitely there and her sister
22:01
were out at a restaurant. And OJ, for some reason, even
22:06
though they were estranged and divorced, they expected to be
22:09
invited. So he wasn't.
22:12
So they come home, Nicole and the kids.
22:16
I think this is roundabout. Is it maybe like half eight?
22:21
9:00 PM. And OJ's alibi was that he was.
22:29
I think he was at McDonald's, wasn't he?
22:30
He said he was at McDonald's at the time.
22:32
Cato. Cato.
22:34
Yeah, his Cato was his live in like guest, whatever.
22:39
He lived in OJ's house. Outback.
22:43
For some reason, he became like semi or a semi celebrity through
22:48
the case, as a lot of people did, even though he was quite, I
22:52
don't want to say useless, but he did.
22:56
I mean, he did. He did basically contradict OJ's
22:58
timeline. So that was good.
22:59
But yeah, so OJ claimed he was at McDonald's at the time when
23:09
he has all the information. He has the key to the case,
23:13
shall we say. But Nicole came out of the
23:18
house. She came out onto the not the
23:22
driveway. I mean, I think in the UK we
23:25
would call it like, what would we call it?
23:28
It's just like a pathway into the house.
23:31
So she came out there and she was attacked.
23:36
We don't know exactly what OG said.
23:40
Like, some people, Mark Furman speculated that OJ was there
23:45
slashing her tyres. You said the thing about
23:47
retribution. And she came out and stopped to
23:50
him and started, like, verbally abusing him.
23:52
And he just had the knife in his hand and he, like, came over and
23:56
butchered her essentially. So Mark.
23:58
Yeah. Mark Furman, sweetie, is he
24:00
don't actually go there to kill her.
24:01
He went there to slash her tyres.
24:04
Yeah. Which is, I mean, he had like
24:06
the one of the sharpest blades like known to man, that serrated
24:11
blade. So he definitely went there to
24:14
kill her. But he he almost, he was in such
24:17
a frenzy and so enraged that he almost decapitated her.
24:22
And for me that precludes that it was just like a random
24:27
killing there. It was a personal like the the
24:32
amount of violence done on the call that night.
24:36
It was obviously someone who knew her.
24:38
It was obviously someone who wanted to inflict as much damage
24:43
as as possible on another human being.
24:46
And yeah, she was almost decapitated.
24:49
And then so Ron Goldman appears on the scene.
24:52
Can we talk a little bit about Ron Goldman first before, well
24:56
before he's he's murdered what? Who was Ron Goldman?
25:00
Well, Ron Goldman was. He was working at the restaurant
25:05
Nicole, when the family had been to her.
25:08
It's been alleged that they were in a relationship.
25:11
They probably were because his reason for being there was he
25:14
was returning her, her mother's glasses that she'd left at the
25:18
restaurant. And it's like, I mean, you're
25:21
not doing that after your shift unless you know the person.
25:25
But he he was also apparently an aspiring screenplay writer and
25:32
he also wanted to open his own restaurant, apparently.
25:35
But he came on the scene and again, according to forensics,
25:39
OJ like came up behind him, surprised him, started stabbing
25:44
him in the face, like just miniature pin tricks in the
25:49
face. And then there was like a small,
25:52
I mean, someone from the US or someone from California
25:56
specifically could maybe tell us what these things are for.
25:59
But there's like, there's a weak like cage like area outside the
26:03
house. I don't know, do you put your
26:06
dog there like when you're maybe?
26:08
Your. Your baits or your prawns or
26:11
yeah, some something like that. I don't know.
26:12
Story space, most likely, yeah. But OJ, Ron Goldman stumbled
26:17
into there and OJ basically, I think one of the like,
26:21
prosecutors on the case said it was like a killing cage.
26:24
Like you're not, there's no way for you to escape.
26:27
There's OJ. Big, huge guy, very strong ex
26:32
football players still worked out.
26:35
He's like what, 200 and 32140 lbs?
26:38
He basically like pinned them and yeah, he again, he butchered
26:42
them. I mean, Ron obviously was in the
26:45
wrong place at the wrong pain. Yeah, like you said about JFK in
26:49
our first, very first episode, Yeah, he was just in the wrong
26:52
place at the wrong time. OJ obviously didn't plan on a
26:56
double murder that night, but he maybe in his like his
27:02
perspective he basically. Struck gold and won the New York
27:06
sweepstakes because he he got to kill her and he got to kill her
27:11
like alleged lover as well. So well, I, I will say one thing
27:15
about about Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson's
27:21
relationship. For me, it doesn't matter if
27:24
they were lovers or not because I've seen some people say, well,
27:27
they were lovers and as if if that means that they deserve to
27:32
be butchered to death because OG and Nicole weren't together
27:36
anymore. Nicole had the right to be with
27:38
whoever the hell. She yeah, and you can't, you
27:40
can't just murder your ex partner because she's now seeing
27:43
someone else. I mean, yeah, but I'm not saying
27:45
that. I'm just saying no, no, I know
27:47
that some of the takes online, but because they like it's it's
27:51
bullshit that he was just returning glasses.
27:53
Like who cares? Who cares?
27:55
I mean, the guy was viciously murdered.
27:57
And also, yeah, who cares about that?
28:01
And some of the takes online, we'll get into some of them I, I
28:07
have to say, absolutely disgust me about this case and about the
28:13
thinking around this case and, and from certain people so.
28:17
Yeah, we'll get on to that. Well, the murders happened, the
28:22
suspect flees the same. We're not considering it was OJ
28:26
for now. Allegedly OJ.
28:28
Well, well name another suspect that and obviously I'm thinking
28:31
the pass OJ was 100% the killer, 110% it can it can not be him
28:39
like with the DNA evidence. Well, let's get into that Let's
28:42
get into the evidence. What what evidence was found at
28:46
the crime scene that pointed investigators towards oratory?
28:49
I mean they shop at this house, they find 2 dead bodies
28:55
butchered to death and what leads them to OJ Simpson?
28:59
I mean, it's, I mean, I'm guessing Nicole's house isn't
29:02
that far away from OJ's, but it's not next door.
29:05
So what leads them to OJ? Well, I think the thing that led
29:08
them to OJ's was that they identified quickly who she was.
29:13
The kids were still asleep upstairs and.
29:17
So they they thought that maybe OJ himself was in mortal danger.
29:23
So they went to OJ's place in in Brentwood.
29:27
Was it Rockingham? They called it?
29:29
Yeah, yeah, Rockingham and I think Fuhrman.
29:32
That was his mansion in Brentwood.
29:34
Yeah, beautiful place, but Fuhrman was the principal on the
29:39
same on the same from the LAPD, Detective Fuhrman and Philip
29:44
Vanatter is his name. I believe so, yeah.
29:47
Yeah, they were the. So Fuhrman, Mark Fuhrman was the
29:50
principal. So they go over to Rockingham
29:52
and Fuhrman says that he finds like a bloody glove outside.
29:59
I, I don't think it was directly outside the like main house, but
30:04
it was maybe close. It was on the estate.
30:06
It was on the estate. It was close to where Cato Cato
30:09
was like place was, but they found that a glove soaked in
30:13
blood. As it transpired, it was a
30:16
golfing glove. If you ever, if you've ever
30:18
played golf, always wear a glove, particularly in the
30:21
winter, because you're you can you can get blisters on your
30:25
hands from like gripping the the club.
30:27
So just don't play golf at all. Stupid fucking game, Stereo says
30:32
in The Sopranos. Yeah, no, I I mean, I love golf,
30:36
but anyway, that's a different matter.
30:38
So they find this bloody golf. They they is there anything else
30:41
they find at Rockingham? Well, Nojs car, they they find
30:45
blood from him, blood from the victims.
30:49
I think hair from Nicole was found in the car.
30:52
Isn't this a controversial aspect of the case?
30:55
The fact they searched OJ's car without a warrant.
30:57
Yeah, I mean, they should have done that.
31:00
But remember, this evidence was was like it wasn't an admissible
31:04
in court. It was a light to be presented
31:06
in court. We had probable cause.
31:08
They had. Yeah, they had probable cause.
31:10
And remember at that time as well, they're thinking OJ is a
31:13
victim. They're thinking OJ might be a
31:14
victim. So you might open the car door
31:17
and OJ comes spelling out like like in a movie or something.
31:21
You open the door and. You falls out onto the.
31:24
The concrete on onto the concrete and firm is like Oh no
31:28
it's OJ and Banatter's like who gives a fuck.
31:35
Well, I won't say that, but as Snoop Dogg said in Murder was
31:40
the Case, just listen to the intro of that song.
31:42
That was probably attitude if OJ had rolled out of that car, but
31:49
but so they find this all this evidence at the at OJ's house.
31:54
Where is OJ at this time? Is he in the?
31:56
House or no? No, he was.
31:58
He had flown to, I think it was Chicago for to do something for
32:02
Hertz. He won't.
32:03
So he won't. When the police called Tom, did
32:05
Hertz have this man under contract?
32:07
Chrysler think he must have signed this a lifetime contract
32:11
with him. Yeah, but you have to remember
32:13
that time he's his football career is long over.
32:16
He's he's not like a major star anymore.
32:19
I think he was doing like golf events and stuff for Hertz to
32:23
get back into golf. So he was Yeah, he was.
32:28
Excuse me, he was he by that time.
32:31
He's not their main like money earner for Hertz.
32:35
But he's still, he's still contracted.
32:38
I think it's basically a good wealth thing, isn't it?
32:39
It's like, it's like maybe Bob Dylan at at Columbia or Sony,
32:46
It's like, you know, Bob Dylan's records really aren't going to
32:50
sell a lot. But he's done so much for the
32:53
company. Even Bruce Springsteen, it's
32:55
like he's not going to have like a Born in the USA hit again.
32:59
But he's bringing in so much money for the company.
33:01
Maybe not as much as he did before, but you've had him on
33:04
contract for so long, you're going to keep him.
33:07
He's popular enough. You keep him around.
33:08
Yeah, even though perhaps he's he's seen his best days.
33:14
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm, I'm not saying that
33:16
about obviously Springsteen and Dylan, their music isn't as good
33:21
now as it was in their prime, but that that happens to
33:24
everyone. So.
33:25
But and with well, let's get back told you he's in Chicago.
33:28
He gets a call from the LAPD and what's soldiers reaction when he
33:32
he finds out Nicole's been murdered.
33:35
I think it is one is 1 of like shock.
33:38
Isn't it? It's like my God kind of thing,
33:41
like the detective said that he was.
33:45
He did seem genuinely like bewildered by what had happened,
33:50
but is there? An argument to be made then he
33:53
was surprised she died. I mean he was in such a frenzy
33:56
when he was attacking. Or maybe he's fled the scene
33:59
thinking of she's still alive. Absolutely not.
34:02
He must have known. With the minor stab wounds and
34:05
the fact that he almost decapitated her that she was not
34:09
going to survive unless medical attention was administered
34:12
immediately. But even then, she probably
34:15
still would have died. But and but OJ doesn't ask how
34:18
did she die? Isn't that a key part of the
34:21
case? The fact he doesn't ask to
34:23
detect if it calls him? But how did his wife die?
34:26
He's just like, OK, she's dead. Yeah, I mean that you could, I
34:31
mean, obviously we both believe that OJ is a killer, but you
34:35
could say, yeah. I mean, that could just be down
34:38
to shock. I mean, he could be, there must
34:41
be 1000 cases where like a spouse is told her partner is
34:45
dead and they're just like, Oh my God.
34:47
Then they're just, I'm not saying OJ was inconsolable, but
34:52
they I mean that that is you don't know how a person is going
34:55
to react and a grief struck like a grief situation like that.
35:00
OJ returns from Chicago. He goes to the PlayStation.
35:03
He's, well, you wouldn't say he's interrogated.
35:06
He's they're treating him like a celebrity, which he is.
35:12
And how do how do those initial interviews?
35:14
Go Well as far as I'm aware he didn't have a lawyer present.
35:18
Like he waived the right to have a lawyer.
35:19
Always have a lawyer present people.
35:21
Even if you're. Even when you're guilty, Yeah,
35:24
you're innocent as well. Always have a lawyer present.
35:27
Yeah, I remember one of the guy, I won't say his name, but one of
35:30
the guys on my football team got apprehended one night at a
35:34
hotel. There was like a wedding, and
35:38
someone accused them of saying something to one of the hotel
35:43
staff members. So this guy is completely like,
35:47
he's not like you wouldn't see him as a criminal.
35:50
He's just like he'd obviously had too much to drink.
35:52
I don't know what he said or if he said it.
35:54
I don't think he said it. But when he went, when he got
35:56
took to the station, he was appointed a lawyer by the police
36:01
and the police police said that they were questioning him and
36:05
the guy was like maintaining his innocence and shouting about his
36:09
innocence. And his lawyer said to him, just
36:12
don't say anything, like just make no comment on any of the
36:16
questions. So, yeah, always have a lawyer
36:18
present because they understand the law.
36:20
But OJ, yeah, as you say, it was like they were, I don't want to
36:26
say they were starstruck, but I think the natter was one of
36:29
them. But they they basically let him
36:34
run an interview like they did. The narrative dictated the
36:38
narrative, which detectives shouldn't do.
36:40
And they were they were just letting him basically take the
36:45
ball and run with it. And they weren't like pinning
36:48
them down on like timelines or where were you at this time and
36:52
that time. So basically that interview is
36:56
useless. The police is not something the
36:59
police can really go back to and say see, like he never gave was
37:02
like a proper like timeline was like, well, you didn't ask the
37:06
question. Like it's your job to like, make
37:08
sure that question is clear and concise, and make sure his
37:13
answer is clear and concise. So they separately bungle this
37:16
interview. OJ walks out, and what happens
37:20
next? There's ADA.
37:21
The District Attorney decide to charge OJ.
37:24
And why did they decide to charge?
37:25
Him, well, the, the evidence was overwhelming.
37:28
I mean, the District Attorney of Los Angeles at that time, is it
37:34
Gil Gil Garcetti, like he's a head DA, isn't he?
37:38
So he he, he's a head. So he gives the case to Marshall
37:44
Clark, who's an assessment DA and like after she sees the
37:49
evidence, it's like you have to charge them as like there's no
37:53
other situation. I mean, The thing is in America,
37:58
celebrity, I mean, you spoke about Teddy.
38:01
I mean the the evidence against him was overwhelming and he
38:04
still was like acquitted of the more serious charges against
38:09
him. I would say that evidence of
38:11
trafficking wasn't really overwhelming.
38:14
It wasn't really. Let's not get.
38:17
Into that too much but it wasn't but it'll come it'll come back
38:20
into play It'll come back into play later.
38:23
But the. Yeah, but yeah, they they had to
38:26
charge them. I mean, the evidence was
38:27
overwhelming. Believe me.
38:29
There were probably people in the LAPD who were like, Oh no,
38:32
we don't want to charge OJ. Like it's so because he he had
38:35
such a great relationship with LAPD.
38:38
They were there were probably some of them who were
38:40
distraught, overcharging them and even disbelieved perhaps
38:44
that he he committed those crimes.
38:46
Yeah because he's such like an affable, gregarious individual
38:50
when they see him. And also this comes into play
38:53
later, obviously with the like botched arrival.
38:59
At the police station, should we say to turn himself in?
39:02
Well, we can get into that now. So he agrees to surrender to
39:05
police on June 17th. Yeah, I think he's meant to be
39:08
downtown by IS at 11. And for some reason LAPD have
39:13
called like a massive press conference because policemen are
39:17
not like out in LA They're all starstruck.
39:21
They all want their moment of fame.
39:23
They all want to be in the limelight and obviously as a
39:25
high profile case, but you maybe could argue that they maybe
39:29
should have waited until he was in custody before doing that.
39:32
Yeah, definitely. But who is OJ's lawyer at this
39:35
time? Well, his his lawyer, I'm not
39:39
sure who his lawyer was. I think it's Robert Shapiro at
39:42
that time. It's Robert Shapiro at that
39:45
time. So he he was.
39:48
I don't even think he was. He definitely wasn't like
39:53
homicide lawyer. He definitely didn't, Yeah.
39:55
He's just a famous. Lawyer, Just a famous lawyer.
39:57
So he he had agreed to bring OJ to the LA Police Department for
40:04
11 AM. That day, like he didn't show
40:07
up, and that was on June 17. So he doesn't show up.
40:12
And then we have this famous Bronco chase, white Bronco
40:16
chase, which has obviously been talked about and will be.
40:21
Yeah, but we should go on to a little bit because it's an
40:24
important part of the case. So Audrey and one of Audrey's
40:29
friends and hangers on. Would you say alcohol?
40:33
No, I, I would disagree with that.
40:35
I would say he's a genuine friend.
40:37
I mean, yeah, I mean, again, I mentioned the Charlie Sheen
40:41
thing earlier. There's a guy, a guy on that,
40:44
like a guy who had known Charlie since childhood, like Al Collins
40:50
now OJ since childhood. And at the end, it said this
40:57
guy's always been with Charlie through the rough times and
40:59
stuff. And there's like insinuations
41:02
from some people he's just there because, like, you're around the
41:04
millionaire. You get to go on all these
41:07
holidays, see all these places, like, you get to be around all
41:10
these like women. So obviously, like Alcoholics.
41:15
Motives aren't entirely altruistic.
41:18
Of course, they're not like we're all humans.
41:20
I mean, if you can get something from a situation, even if you
41:24
genuinely care about that person, most humans are going to
41:29
like, I don't want to say exploit it, but they're going to
41:32
enjoy that privilege. And I think Al Collins was one
41:36
of them. Like, I don't know what Al
41:37
Collins did for 11, but he certainly seemed to be living
41:41
well. I think he lived off OJ.
41:42
But yeah, that's what I was about to.
41:44
Yeah. He lived off OJ.
41:45
So he was that hanger on. He's not a hanger.
41:47
He's not a did he, did he do security for OJ?
41:50
Did he actually have a job or was it No, he's just his friend.
41:52
I mean, but it's OJ. OJ is happy for him to be there.
41:56
So well, Al Al Collins is in the car with OJ.
41:59
He's driving the car. OJ's in the back.
42:01
And yeah, there there's always been apparently there were
42:05
disguises in the car and like passports, but OJ and cash.
42:11
But but I, I somewhat, I can't remember who said in the case
42:14
like this guy by this point is the most famous guy or most
42:20
infamous guy on the planet that where's he going to go?
42:24
Like, where's he going to go? Even with a crappy disguise,
42:26
where's he going? He's not getting far, is he?
42:29
He's not getting far, no. But he's right in the the Bronco
42:33
down the the motorway or the highway, as it would say in.
42:37
In America. Yeah.
42:39
In Los Angeles. Yeah, in Los Angeles.
42:42
And 95 million people are watching this on television.
42:46
I mean, it's something of a unprecedented event, surely.
42:49
I I'd love to know what because that.
42:51
That was the. I mean the FIFA World Cup in 94
42:55
which was in the US would have still been on at that point.
42:57
So I'd love to know what game they turned off to watch.
43:01
Like the OJ chase. It could have been any of them.
43:03
It was 1. Of the worst World Cups ever.
43:05
It was so dull. Not the Brazilian team was
43:08
boring. They bored everyone who watched
43:11
them today for that time. Yeah, it was it was a boring
43:14
Brazilian team, but that that will always be my favourite
43:16
World Cup because it's the first one I watched.
43:19
And anyway, let's not get into that.
43:22
But yeah, there were boring games and the final is probably,
43:25
you could argue it's the worst final World Cup history.
43:27
I mean, I don't know what the hell was going on in that game.
43:31
But well, let's get back to OJ. So let's get back to the World
43:34
Cup is on, but OJ is in the Bronco.
43:37
He finally OJ is sent. OJ is centre stage.
43:40
OJ is like the big story everyone cares about.
43:43
And so OJ what happens in the Bronco is is.
43:48
The police convinced them to return to Rockingham and
43:51
surrender eventually. I mean, it's a long, I mean, you
43:55
don't even want to call it a chase.
43:56
I mean, OJ was going or Al Collins was driving so slowly.
44:00
But I mean, what is it he says in Terminator 2?
44:03
Is this it? Is this the car's top vehicle?
44:05
I could get, I could get out and run beside it.
44:08
It's like it's going so slow so that.
44:09
The T1. Thousand yeah, the T1000.
44:12
But the, the the police could have like, I mean, they don't.
44:17
And again, this goes to celebrity privilege.
44:19
They could have put up a barrier, they could have stopped
44:22
him. They could have like run him off
44:23
the road. They could have let his caught
44:25
up. I mean, yeah, you don't want
44:27
them to light the car up, but they they shouldn't have let him
44:29
do what he did because it just looks very bad.
44:33
And on the other highway to the to the standstill, essentially,
44:36
he was, he was getting a chaperone home.
44:39
He was getting a chaperone home. And yeah, he finally went home
44:42
and he surrendered. One of the police officers said
44:46
that he he wanted to drive around till it was dark because
44:49
he didn't want the media to get a shot of him like going into
44:53
Rockingham. But whether that's true or not.
44:55
Who cares? Does it matter?
44:57
He goes back and he surrenders. So he goes back, he surrenders.
45:01
The police have them in custody at this time.
45:04
They're they're probably thinking this is a slam dunk
45:07
case, right? Yeah, I remember like, well, you
45:10
might recall we were in the Boys Brigade at that point and in 94,
45:15
the Boys Brigade for any of our American listeners, if there are
45:18
any of you there, that's kind of like the Boy Scouts.
45:21
It's kind of like the Boy Scouts, but it's more, it's got
45:23
more of a religious aspect, sadly to it.
45:26
Yeah. But the one of the like, I don't
45:28
know what they'd be called in the Boys Brigade, but one of the
45:31
guys who helped to run it, he said that only a guilty man
45:36
would have ran at that stage. So he knew or he believed OJ was
45:40
guilty because he OG had run because he had tried to.
45:43
Well, I mean, you can't even say he tried to escape because where
45:45
was he going? But maybe he hoped that he
45:48
wouldn't. It wouldn't be known that he had
45:51
left Rockingham with Al Collins and that he could have got out
45:55
of the state at least. And maybe it would have been
45:58
like a few more days until they tracked him down.
46:00
Well, isn't there a rumour that he was trying to drive to
46:03
Mexico? Well, maybe I mean.
46:06
LA you can't get to Mexico through Lai think but yeah, when
46:10
if he had gone to Mexico, I'm sure he would have been
46:12
extradited anyway. It wasn't like he weren't going
46:14
to extradite him. But maybe maybe I'm wrong on
46:17
that. But so he but OG is arrested.
46:20
He has his arraignment where he makes the well, he sets the tone
46:24
by saying he's absolutely 100% not guilty.
46:27
Well, this is like the first arraignment.
46:30
He, I mean. He was like almost non
46:33
responsive when the the judge said his name and stuff and he
46:37
was in shock. Like if you put an innocent man
46:39
in front of a judge, then obviously OJ wasn't no, it was
46:42
obviously performative. And he he's an actor.
46:45
And also some people say he was maybe under the influence of of
46:48
drugs, sedative or sedative, another thing that's been done
46:51
to death in OJ. Case, but you have to speak
46:54
about it if you're discussing the cases.
46:56
He assembled a dream team of lawyers who would ultimately.
47:01
Lead to his acquittal. Who was the dream team?
47:04
Well, I mean, you'll say that led to his acquittal.
47:08
I would argue against that, but we'll get into that later.
47:11
Robert Shapiro obviously was already involved.
47:14
F Lee Bailey, who was like a famous lawyer from the 70s.
47:18
Well, not from the 70s. F Lee Bailey defended Sam
47:21
Shepard, who was the basis of the fugitive.
47:24
Oh, but I I don't know that, yeah, F Lee Bailey is.
47:28
Maybe he's sat on that side of the table.
47:31
I don't know how the hell if Lee Bailey's still alive.
47:33
I mean, Christ, that guy's been kicking about for what must be
47:36
at least 100 years by now. You're a hell of an actor,
47:39
Lachlan. Who was acting?
47:41
Well, you're still alive, aren't you?
47:43
Well, maybe I don't. I don't know if Lee Bailey was
47:45
still alive. Alan Derksowicz, who has been in
47:48
the media recently because he's on the Epstein list.
47:52
We don't want to get sued. Don't sue us, Alan.
47:54
But you are a cunt and we know that you're defending Epstein
47:58
and that you were involved. Oh, we're definitely, we're
48:01
going to retract that because we don't know for attack, but he
48:03
was OK. Well, I, I know Alan Derswich
48:06
from his debates with Norman Feinkelstein.
48:12
Yeah, Feinkelstein. You were, you were going to
48:14
interview him, but your, your, your editor pulled the plug
48:19
because they were scared of of. Yeah, go back.
48:23
I had an interview lined up with Norman Feinkelstein, the
48:27
professor Norman Feinkelstein. But we we had to pull the
48:30
interview. But it it wasn't your choice to
48:32
pull it. It was your editor.
48:33
Yeah, it was our editor decided not to go ahead with it.
48:36
I think Pingree should make that distinction clear to our
48:39
listeners. Yeah, but.
48:41
But that's how I I first learned of Alan Dershowitz.
48:44
They they have these incredible debates because Dershowitz
48:49
denied the Finkelstein tenure. I don't I don't know if it was
48:53
hard or if it was a university, but he made sure he didn't get
48:56
it. And and Fenkelstein was he's one
48:59
of these debates and this man denied me tenure and it's just
49:03
an incredible debates are both very articulate men who.
49:08
Who hate each other. So those always make for
49:10
interesting debates. But just like us.
49:12
But we're inarticulate and we still hate each other.
49:15
We just hate each other. Who else is on the the Dream
49:17
Team? Well, yeah.
49:18
Just to finish up on Dirks, the way it's just what I was saying.
49:21
He has denigrated the Epstein victim.
49:24
So he's not a good person. And also Barry Shrek, who he was
49:31
Shrek. Not Shrek, he's not.
49:33
He's not a giant dark green over.
49:36
So is it Shrek? Yeah, Shrek.
49:38
Barry Shrek. So he he's basically, he's the,
49:41
if you want to say, I mean, he became the quote unquote like
49:45
forensic expert of the Dream team.
49:48
And The funny thing is, or the good thing is, and it's probably
49:51
because of his conscience. Since then, he has involved a
49:55
lot in that Innocence Project. No, he, he created Innocence
49:59
Project and he'd created it before this case.
50:02
A lot of people make that misconception.
50:04
I thought, I thought he had. Did they watch that OJ dot where
50:07
you can see he's like, he obviously has a bit of a guilty
50:10
conscience over the case, but the Innocence Project, it's one
50:14
of the few charities I donate to and they've done extraordinary
50:18
work. They do extraordinary some
50:20
someone like I went, I mentioned the West Memphis 3 case in our
50:25
very first episode and someone was saying like Venison project,
50:29
just take any case and like implying that the West Memphis
50:32
Three were guilty. I don't know enough about it.
50:34
I'm still listening to the podcast on it.
50:36
The 46. Parts the 4643, Parts 43 Get it
50:40
right. Get it right, please.
50:43
The the the lead lawyer or he became the lead lawyer in the
50:46
case was Johnny Cochran, who was like a famous black lawyer.
50:50
And he the year before he defended Michael Jackson and the
50:54
first child sexual abuse allegations and another innocent
50:59
black man railroaded by the LAPD.
51:02
Yeah, well, we'll get into that. But, well, we'll we bit into
51:05
that later. But Johnny Cochran, I always
51:08
loved the scene and Lethal Weapon 4 where Chris Rock like
51:12
runs down a suspect and he's like, if like we'll provide a
51:17
lawyer for you if you can't afford one and we'll get the
51:20
like the biggest piece of shit on earth.
51:23
You can't even speak English. And he's like, if you get Johnny
51:25
Cochran, I'll fucking kill you. I.
51:28
Remember that, And that sounds a lot like Chris.
51:32
That's the second Chris Rock reference in this.
51:34
Podcast, you know there's too many.
51:35
Yeah, hopefully Chris comes on someday and puts us to write.
51:39
But so, is there anyone else on the Dream Team?
51:41
No, that's it. So OJ obviously pleads not
51:44
guilty. Yeah, he pleads not guilty, 100%
51:47
not guilty. And there's worse like this big
51:50
arrangement. And then we know when he goes to
51:52
trial, 26th of September 1994, he goes to trial and the trial
51:57
runs until October of the following year, the 3rd of
52:00
October. So obviously the fact they went
52:02
to trial in September of the year, the same year the murder
52:06
took place, I mean, they're basically like speedball in this
52:10
through the, the legal system. Because I mean, look at the
52:15
awful like guy who killed all those students.
52:19
Where was it out near Utah? Like he, his trial took ages to
52:24
come to court. Look at even look at the guy
52:26
today, Tyler Robinson. He was first in court yesterday
52:30
after allegedly shooting Charlie Kirk.
52:34
Months ago. So yeah, they, they basically
52:36
speedballed us through the legal process to get it to court.
52:39
Yeah, they wanted to to get OJ in court and get an eviction as
52:44
quickly as possible. So that's end of episode 1 on
52:48
the Twin History podcast of OJ Simpson.
52:51
We'll talk about the trial in Part 2 and listen.
52:56
It's a good part because I mean, I'm doing this without any
52:59
notes, so I I think you should like double my fee for being
53:03
here. I'm not going to double.
53:04
You're not getting. Paid.
53:05
I love it from zero to 0. But yeah, thank you for
53:10
listening. And thanks for listening, guys.
53:13
We'll see you next week. See you next.
53:14
Time When History Podcast is a Lost Cosmonauts production
53:18
produced by me Virag Ester Toot. Additional producers are Dale
53:23
McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and Joe McCann.
53:27
Written by Johnny McCann and Joe McCann, original music and score
53:32
by Kevin McLeod. The podcast is available
53:36
wherever you get your podcast. You can find us on Instagram,
53:40
YouTube, Twitter and TikTok under the handle The Twin
53:45
History Pod. You can e-mail us at The Twin
53:49
historypodcast@gmail.com. Thanks for listening.
54:24
None. None.