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Beauty Queen Mom Dead in Bathtub. Accident or MURDER? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We musn't know my answer
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Speaker 1: for medical I lit over mor Okay, what's the mable sack?
0:18
Speaker 1: You go? What try the house? Isn't about that? Okay?
0:28
Speaker 1: Is she conscious? Gold her? Oh I needed a concious
0:35
Speaker 1: I can't understand you. Okay, can your contact the part? Yeah? Okay?
0:40
Speaker 1: What is your wife is unconscious? She is unconut on
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Speaker 1: the world. Okay, let's don't you get her out of
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Speaker 1: the water or of the world. She's got another waters
0:53
Speaker 1: I'm the woman. Okay. Is she breathing at all? Okay?
1:00
Speaker 1: Everyone take that on their way? Okay, what I'm Nancy Grace,
1:10
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. You just heard a nine one
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Speaker 1: one call an urgent nine one one call a beauty
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Speaker 1: queen brilliant as well slips under the water in her
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Speaker 1: tub to her death. Michelle McNeil absolutely stunning, found slowly
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Speaker 1: slipping away from life under the water in her own bathtub.
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Speaker 1: But how did it happen? Take a listen to this.
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Speaker 1: We mut water water Okay, Okay, they're from everyone because
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Speaker 1: the page. They're on their way. Okay, you're not y
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Speaker 1: have what I would an adult? Do? I be cool
2:21
Speaker 1: that any one white? Can I help you? Are you
2:25
Speaker 1: They're on their way? Did your wife breathing? More? Quick?
2:31
Speaker 1: Norton cards, you're doing a PR? Mal Old? How old
2:37
Speaker 1: is your wife? Surgury? What kind of figuring? Did you
2:43
Speaker 1: have a holdbook? Shut a Facebook? Yeah? Okay? Do you
2:47
Speaker 1: know how to do CPR? I'm a boyar Okay? Did
2:51
Speaker 1: I you're hearing the rest of that nine one one
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Speaker 1: call when the nine one one operator calls back to
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Speaker 1: the mansion of doctor more Martin McNeil, his wife Michelle
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Speaker 1: slowly slipping away from life. Wow, A nine one one
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Speaker 1: call is how I like to start every single investigation,
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Speaker 1: every single incident, every single trial, every single accident reconstruction,
3:20
Speaker 1: because in those moments, you hear what's really going on
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Speaker 1: at the time. I can have a detective or a
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Speaker 1: witness drone on on the stand forever, but it's not
3:30
Speaker 1: the same as hearing it in the moment, Because what
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Speaker 1: I heard is a man screaming that his wife was
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Speaker 1: not breathing, that he is a physician, that he is
3:41
Speaker 1: performing CPR, and he sounds completely in the moment trying
3:45
Speaker 1: to save her. Joining me right now, an all star
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Speaker 1: panel starting with doctor Chris Sperry retired chief medical Examiner
3:54
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, renowned California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. Karen
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Speaker 1: Stark Psychologists joining us out of Manhattan. You can find
4:02
Speaker 1: her at Krenstark dot com. Former detective you can find
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Speaker 1: him at Stephen Lampley dot com. And right now, syndicated
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Speaker 1: talk show host David mac David, let's start at the beginning.
4:14
Speaker 1: I think I heard him yell at the words she
4:16
Speaker 1: just had surgery. Yes, man, that's exactly what he said. Okay,
4:21
Speaker 1: let me go straight to our physician, doctor Chris Sperry.
4:25
Speaker 1: Doctor Sperry. Any surgery can have complications. I remember when
4:30
Speaker 1: I gave birth to the twins. I couldn't breathe. I
4:33
Speaker 1: couldn't breathe. I couldn't breathe. I didn't know what was happening.
4:37
Speaker 1: Finally it took a while to identify I'd had blood
4:41
Speaker 1: clots go many blood clots lodge in my lungs. That's
4:46
Speaker 1: why I couldn't breathe, and it was exacerbated by a
4:50
Speaker 1: cesarean section. That's what happened, and I steal to this
4:54
Speaker 1: day don't really understand the whole thing. But I now
4:57
Speaker 1: know that even a simple surge can have serious results
5:02
Speaker 1: when you have a full on facelift, which I think
5:06
Speaker 1: is pretty young. I'll get back to you my shrink
5:08
Speaker 1: here and stark on this. At age fifty you have
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Speaker 1: a full on facelift. I mean, fifty is the new thirty.
5:14
Speaker 1: That's what I read the other day. So anyway, doctor
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Speaker 1: Chris Berry, how can something like a facelift end up
5:22
Speaker 1: in tragedy. Well, there's a lot of pain involved, and
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Speaker 1: many people don't appreciate that facelifts like this can be
5:29
Speaker 1: very painful. It can be difficult to eat and to drink.
5:33
Speaker 1: And one of the biggest problems actually that comes with
5:37
Speaker 1: a surgery like this is the pain and then the
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Speaker 1: use of medications to blunt the pain, and then the
5:45
Speaker 1: complications that arise from those medications. Okay, wait a minute,
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Speaker 1: I instinctively just held my hand up to my face
5:53
Speaker 1: and all three of us here in the studio, Jackie
5:56
Speaker 1: and Riley and myself are making all sorts of faces
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Speaker 1: thinking about your face being you know, lacerated and cut
6:03
Speaker 1: on in surgery too. Do you think plastic surgery a
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Speaker 1: full on facelift is more painful? Because I've always heard
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Speaker 1: doctor Sperry. Now that i've got you in my clutches
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Speaker 1: that anything to do around your neck and your face
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Speaker 1: is more painful than events that happen to the rest
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Speaker 1: of your body. Well, yes it is. The face has
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Speaker 1: lots and lots and lots of nerve endings and many
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Speaker 1: many small complex muscles, and so it needs a lot
6:31
Speaker 1: of nerves to make all those work. When we talk,
6:34
Speaker 1: when we smile, all the things we do with our
6:37
Speaker 1: face require muscles and nerves. And there's a lot of
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Speaker 1: blood vessels as well, which is another danger, so, you know,
6:46
Speaker 1: irritating the nerves. The inevitable swelling of all the tissues
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Speaker 1: from doing a facelift leads to increased pain and difficulty
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Speaker 1: in moving muscles, a whole host of different complications. And
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Speaker 1: it's most people who undergo facelifts like this don't really
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Speaker 1: understand how difficult the recovery can be because of the
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Speaker 1: swelling and the pain that's involved. Okay, so your theory
7:13
Speaker 1: would be that potentially she had taken pain peels and
7:18
Speaker 1: slipped under the water. You know, I don't know what
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Speaker 1: it is with women in bathtubs. Karen Stark, psychologists, isn't
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Speaker 1: fifty a little young to be having a facelift, a
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Speaker 1: full on facelift. Nowadays, Nancy, people sometimes have facelifts when
7:31
Speaker 1: they're in their thirties. Okay, so is that a solid
7:35
Speaker 1: man in New York City? So it's not. It's not
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Speaker 1: young at all. So is that you're telling me? No? Okay,
7:42
Speaker 1: well I would think that it was. But okay, I
7:44
Speaker 1: stand corrected. H David Mack question, do you joining me?
7:50
Speaker 1: David Mack, syndicated talk show host. Was she on pain peels?
7:55
Speaker 1: Could that have contributed to her drowning death? Yes? Man,
7:59
Speaker 1: Actually she was on four different medications, all of which
8:03
Speaker 1: would actually leave her sedated, and two of those were
8:07
Speaker 1: pain medications, Laura tab and oxycoda. Oh okay, guys, take
8:12
Speaker 1: a listen to this. My mom said, I'm going to
8:14
Speaker 1: meet with the plastic surgeon. Your father wants to get
8:17
Speaker 1: me a facelift. You've got to make up on by
8:20
Speaker 1: anyone getting older, you have things that you don't like,
8:23
Speaker 1: and so my dad's trying to do something nice for her.
8:26
Speaker 1: She told me. She said, you know, your dad's trying
8:28
Speaker 1: to look all better, or maybe I will too. I thought, well,
8:31
Speaker 1: maybe I would be a good thing. In April two
8:34
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, Michelle moves ahead with the procedure. Alexis
8:38
Speaker 1: takes a break from medical school in Nevada to help
8:41
Speaker 1: with her mom's recovery. I was monitoring her. I was
8:44
Speaker 1: giving her medication. She'd gotten down to like a half
8:47
Speaker 1: of a pain pill. She was feeling good. I was
8:50
Speaker 1: excited because she was healing very well. So I was
8:53
Speaker 1: going to be flying back to Nevada to finish medical
8:57
Speaker 1: school crime stories with Nancy Grace. I called my mom,
9:19
Speaker 1: which was something that I did multiple times a day,
9:24
Speaker 1: and she didn't answer. I called again, and my mom
9:30
Speaker 1: didn't answer. What my father did. My father said her mother,
9:37
Speaker 1: she's not waking up. I've called the police. I was
9:42
Speaker 1: just horrified. I dropped all of my all of my books.
9:52
Speaker 1: I got in my car, started driving as fast as
9:55
Speaker 1: I could, just sobbing and driving to the airport. When
10:00
Speaker 1: I got to the airport, my brother called and said
10:04
Speaker 1: she didn't make it. Oh, my stars, I can't even
10:07
Speaker 1: imagine getting the phone call that my mom quote didn't
10:12
Speaker 1: make it. You're hearing our friends at Oxygen. Daughter Alexis
10:16
Speaker 1: describing taking a break from medical school to help her
10:20
Speaker 1: mom get over the plastic surgery. Then she was down
10:23
Speaker 1: to half a pain pill a day, and so the daughter,
10:26
Speaker 1: Alexis goes back to medical school in Nevada. David Mack,
10:31
Speaker 1: syndicated talk show hosts, I need to know more of
10:33
Speaker 1: the facts. Now, where did this happen? Tell me all
10:35
Speaker 1: the circumstances surrounding finding this beauty queen and mother dead
10:41
Speaker 1: or dying in the bathtub. There was water in it,
10:44
Speaker 1: as you heard during the nine one one call and
10:47
Speaker 1: her husband claiming that he can't get her out of
10:49
Speaker 1: the tub. She had been on the phone with her
10:52
Speaker 1: daughter Alexis about twenty minutes before this took place. And
10:56
Speaker 1: when they found her, he had undone the waters of
10:58
Speaker 1: the water was trying to draw out, but she was
11:00
Speaker 1: still in the top. Wait a minute, Wait a minute.
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Speaker 1: Did you just tell me she had been on the
11:05
Speaker 1: phone twenty minutes before she's found dying, Yes, ma'am. Okay, see,
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Speaker 1: I didn't remember that. I don't remember that fact at all. Wow,
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Speaker 1: And down to a half a pain pill, that's I
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Speaker 1: don't think very much at all, of course. Wendy Patrick,
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Speaker 1: California prosecutor, an author of red flags. In our business,
11:27
Speaker 1: we think a half a pain peel that somebody takes
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Speaker 1: is nothing, because we're used to people trafficking bags and
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Speaker 1: bags and hundreds and thousands of pain peels like oxycoton
11:37
Speaker 1: at a time. I'm so leary. I don't take any
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Speaker 1: medication at all unless I absolutely have to, because I'll
11:45
Speaker 1: never forget Wendy. I was a brand new prosecutor out
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Speaker 1: of your dad's courtroom where he had just been. I've
11:50
Speaker 1: got Darryl Cohen's daughter in here as an intern. Riley.
11:53
Speaker 1: I was a brand new prosecutor and was taking one
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Speaker 1: of my very first guilty pleas and it was gorgeous
12:00
Speaker 1: young woman that came in. I'd say she was about
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Speaker 1: h thirty one two three ish. I looked in the
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Speaker 1: file and she was a stockbroker, a very successful stockbroker.
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Speaker 1: She had lost her job, lost her license to trade
12:17
Speaker 1: or whatever stockbrokers do exactly. She couldn't do that anymore.
12:21
Speaker 1: She had been divorced, her family, her children were living
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Speaker 1: elsewhere with the husband. She was all alone because she
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Speaker 1: got addicted to painkillers and she was not ill. It
12:35
Speaker 1: started with alcohol, then it turned into painkillers. She lost
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Speaker 1: everything and I just stood there going wow, I will
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Speaker 1: never forget that moment. So when I even hear of
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Speaker 1: I have a pain pill. You know, I don't think
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Speaker 1: that's very much compared to what we're used to seeing.
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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Nancy. And what is
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Speaker 1: stunning in a case like this, it's one thing to
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Speaker 1: have somebody over medicating themselves because they're stressed out, they're
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Speaker 1: burnt out, they become addicted. Take a listen to what
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Speaker 1: Alexis McNeil has to say about her mother. I called
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Speaker 1: my mom, which was something that I did multiple times
13:13
Speaker 1: a day, and she didn't answer. I called again, and
13:21
Speaker 1: my mom didn't answer. What my father did. My father said,
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Speaker 1: her mother, she's not waking up. I've called the police.
13:34
Speaker 1: I was just horrified. I dropped all of all of
13:39
Speaker 1: my books. I got in my car, started driving as
13:46
Speaker 1: fast as I could, just sobbing and driving to the airport.
13:51
Speaker 1: When I got to the airport, my brother called and said,
13:56
Speaker 1: she didn't make it. You know, I'm just listening to
13:58
Speaker 1: her recounting again how her mom quote didn't make it.
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Speaker 1: When I hear Stephen Lampley, detective at Stephen Lampley dot com,
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Speaker 1: when I hear a woman is dead in a bathtub,
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Speaker 1: I immediately think of Rod Coughlin's wife. Do you remember her,
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Speaker 1: silly Denishevski, That child just ended she was dead in
14:20
Speaker 1: the shower. All right, then you've got Drew Peterson's first
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Speaker 1: of four wives, Kathleen Savio, dead in the tub. I mean,
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Speaker 1: I could just name them and name them and name
14:31
Speaker 1: everybody's all these women seem to die in the tub.
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Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, I mean, I guess. Now a homicide detective
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Speaker 1: walks into a scene and you find the woman dead
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Speaker 1: in the tub, You're like, Okay, this is a murder.
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Speaker 1: What's the deal with women in bathtub? Stephen nd it's easy,
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Speaker 1: and you know you'd like Princeton this case. You drug
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Speaker 1: somebody and then the water drowns them, and you've got
14:54
Speaker 1: to supposedly good alibi. You've got a good case. It
15:00
Speaker 1: is just a lot times easier. Of course, any homicide
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Speaker 1: detectives from to come in and you start from scratch
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Speaker 1: everybody around the world as a suspect, until you start
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Speaker 1: toliminating folks, including the family. But it seems it seems
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Speaker 1: that the tub is a is a favorite son of
15:21
Speaker 1: of homicide suspects. Take a listen to this. Did the
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Speaker 1: defendant tell you about the day that Michelle passed away
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Speaker 1: A little Yeah, what did he tell you? He told
15:34
Speaker 1: me that there was a healthfare going on at his
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Speaker 1: developmental center. He told me that he had picked up
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Speaker 1: his youngest from school and has gotten to the house
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Speaker 1: and found Michelle in the bathtub. Did he tell you
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Speaker 1: how she was dressed? He did? I think she was.
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Speaker 1: I think I don't remember when when. I didn't chase
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Speaker 1: him for details, but I believe she was partially dressed.
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Speaker 1: Partially dressed. Dave McK syndicated talk show host, You didn't
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Speaker 1: tell me that she's taking a bath in her clothes? Well,
16:11
Speaker 1: you've got two descriptions. You've got one from Martin McNeill
16:15
Speaker 1: in the way that the EMS crews found everything, and
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Speaker 1: you've got a description from the six year old daughter
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Speaker 1: who is the one who actually found her in the
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Speaker 1: tub and said she was fully clothed, wearing a sweat
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Speaker 1: a jogging outfit. Take me back to their mansion, describe
16:30
Speaker 1: the scene. Who was home, who found the body? Where
16:32
Speaker 1: were all the players at the moment she was found dead.
16:35
Speaker 1: When she was found in the bathtub, doctor McNeill and
16:38
Speaker 1: their six year old daughter had just come home from
16:41
Speaker 1: an event at the school that day. Wait a minute,
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Speaker 1: So McNeill, the husband, doctor Martin McNeill, he's a lawyer
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Speaker 1: and a doctor, was away from home with the daughter
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Speaker 1: at a school event at the time she drowned. Did
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Speaker 1: you just say that, yes, ma'am. They were actually at
17:00
Speaker 1: a safety fair at the school. After he picks up
17:04
Speaker 1: his youngest daughter, Ada from the school about eleven thirty five,
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Speaker 1: they arrived back home a few minutes later. That's when
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Speaker 1: Ada found her mother unresponsive, according to her description, head
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Speaker 1: down in the master bound room bathtub. Now, Martin's son, Damien,
17:20
Speaker 1: and Damien's girlfriend were apparently also in the home, but
17:24
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly where they were, but that was
17:27
Speaker 1: and she was found face down in the tub. According
17:29
Speaker 1: to the six year old, she had a jogging suit on,
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Speaker 1: and of course when e MS got there, she was
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Speaker 1: partially closed. Okay, interesting, Why would she be in the
17:39
Speaker 1: tub even partially clothed. This whole thing is not fitting
17:44
Speaker 1: together for me. I want to go to Wendy Patrick,
17:47
Speaker 1: California prosecutor author. I've read flags on Amazon. Wendy, A
17:53
Speaker 1: lot of people think children are horrible witnesses. I disagree.
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Speaker 1: I think they're greatnesses because, yeah, it could be argued
18:03
Speaker 1: they don't understand truth from lies, But I disagree with that.
18:10
Speaker 1: I've had great success with children on the stand. You
18:13
Speaker 1: have to kind of unlock their language, but once they begin,
18:16
Speaker 1: once you understand what they're saying, I don't think they
18:20
Speaker 1: have the same capacity to lie that adults do. This
18:23
Speaker 1: little girl said, mommy was in the tub and she
18:26
Speaker 1: had on her jogging suit. Yeah, you know, Nancy, I agree.
18:30
Speaker 1: Kids lack not only the motivation but also the capacity
18:34
Speaker 1: that the manipulative capacity that adults have. Children don't really
18:38
Speaker 1: they can't really think through why they might want to
18:41
Speaker 1: lie about what they saw. They're more concerned with pleasing
18:45
Speaker 1: the questioner, and especially if it's a judge, answering the
18:48
Speaker 1: questions as best they can. Also, Nancy, the wonderful thing
18:51
Speaker 1: about kids is they are familiar with patterns. What do
18:55
Speaker 1: the parents normally do, how does mommy normally look before
18:57
Speaker 1: she gets into a bathtub, whatever the act patterns are.
19:01
Speaker 1: They're able to provide the kind of perception that an
19:04
Speaker 1: outside an object outsider never would be able to pick
19:07
Speaker 1: up on. So they are their credible witnesses. They are
19:10
Speaker 1: certainly capable witnesses, and in the eyes of many juries,
19:13
Speaker 1: they're very competent witnesses as well. Speaking of children, I'm
19:17
Speaker 1: looking at a photo right now, I just had to
19:19
Speaker 1: count them, David matt I'm counting eight children in this
19:24
Speaker 1: photo with her and doctor McNeil. Is that correct? Does
19:29
Speaker 1: this woman have eight children? She looks like a runway model.
19:33
Speaker 1: They did have eight children. The younger ones were adopted.
19:39
Speaker 1: The daughter Aida, who was six at the time, had
19:42
Speaker 1: found mom in bed in the tub. She was actually
19:46
Speaker 1: their biological granddaughter whom they also adopted as their daughter. So, yes,
19:51
Speaker 1: eight children in that photo. Climb stories with Nancy Grace
20:12
Speaker 1: with a day in court hearing a witness actually testified,
20:16
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill told her order her to flush all the
20:19
Speaker 1: pills down the commode before anybody could see them. And
20:22
Speaker 1: this was on April eleventh. It was just about an
20:24
Speaker 1: hour after she had been pronounced dead. The family is
20:27
Speaker 1: back at the home, meaning Martin was there, Damian his son,
20:31
Speaker 1: and Eileen Hang who was on the stand, who was
20:34
Speaker 1: the girlfriend of Damien, and she said, is there anything
20:36
Speaker 1: I can do to help you? Anything at all? Martin
20:39
Speaker 1: led them into the bathroom area. Bathroom area where there
20:42
Speaker 1: were pills, and it was Martin that opened them. It
20:45
Speaker 1: was Damien that counted them. Martin wrote it down. She watched,
20:50
Speaker 1: and then Martin said, it's just too much for me
20:52
Speaker 1: to watch because I don't think she took her blood
20:54
Speaker 1: pressure medicine like she should have flushies down the toilet
20:57
Speaker 1: and with one flush they were gone. Wow. Hearing me
21:01
Speaker 1: speaking to my longtime colleague and friend over at CHELN,
21:05
Speaker 1: Jean Cassaris, as we discussed the evidence in this case,
21:08
Speaker 1: sounds like the son's girlfriend, Eileen Haying, states that she
21:13
Speaker 1: was asked to flush down all of Michelle's pills as
21:17
Speaker 1: a favor, a favor to who and why. She says,
21:21
Speaker 1: one flush and they were all gone. I mean, Stephen
21:25
Speaker 1: Lampley at Stephen Lampley dot com. Detective tampering with evidence
21:29
Speaker 1: at a scene. That disturbs me, because how do you
21:31
Speaker 1: know what those pills are? Why would he want them
21:34
Speaker 1: flushed down the commode? Why wouldn't he want the cops
21:36
Speaker 1: to see them? I mean, if she had taken too
21:38
Speaker 1: many pain pills and gone underwater and died, why would
21:41
Speaker 1: you want to get rid of all that evidence? Steve
21:43
Speaker 1: Lampley well as in this case, he had actually asked
21:46
Speaker 1: the surgeon who performed the surgery to prescribe additional medications
21:53
Speaker 1: to his wife that normally, even the doctor that prescribed
21:57
Speaker 1: them said normally these would not prescribe, apparently in an
22:01
Speaker 1: attempt to over medicate her. Wait, okay, so Martin McNeil
22:05
Speaker 1: asked for additional pain pills. Yes, and Gordon, what I read?
22:09
Speaker 1: He asked the surgeon who was going he was going
22:11
Speaker 1: to prescribe X number of prescriptions. I don't know how many,
22:14
Speaker 1: there were, maybe two or three. And then he went
22:16
Speaker 1: on to ask the physician who did surgery, would you
22:20
Speaker 1: prescribe this or this as well, which which he did.
22:22
Speaker 1: Listen to this, So she's been pronounced dead one hour
22:25
Speaker 1: and he's going back doing a peeled count. What was
22:27
Speaker 1: his reason for doing a peel count? Jane? Because he
22:30
Speaker 1: was concerned that she wasn't taking the high blood pressure
22:34
Speaker 1: medicine that she should be taking. She had just been
22:36
Speaker 1: what about all those other peels pass on the comode
22:39
Speaker 1: not mentioned? Not mentioned? So not take a listen to
22:43
Speaker 1: what just happened in court? And Martin was seemed frustrated
22:46
Speaker 1: and he's like, I don't want to do this anymore.
22:48
Speaker 1: And then he asked me to flush the pills down
22:52
Speaker 1: the toilet, and did you do that? Yes? Did that
22:55
Speaker 1: request seem strange to you at the time, it did
22:58
Speaker 1: seem strange. Yes. Why did you come play with that request?
23:01
Speaker 1: Because he asked me too, and he just lost his
23:04
Speaker 1: wife and I wanted to help. Okay, how many flushes
23:07
Speaker 1: did it take to get the pills gone? Just one?
23:10
Speaker 1: But I believe that they were in the plastic container.
23:12
Speaker 1: So I just dumped the plastic container, the pills, and
23:15
Speaker 1: the plasta container into the toilet. And that way, no
23:17
Speaker 1: one could ever know what peels were prescribed and how
23:21
Speaker 1: many peels were missing. That's what that says to me.
23:24
Speaker 1: Of course, I have that suspicious mind, and you know,
23:27
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, that's something you can't get rid of. And
23:29
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're the same way Chris Berry, Wendy.
23:32
Speaker 1: Regardless of where I go or what I see, I
23:34
Speaker 1: can't help it. I memorize license tags on cars, I
23:38
Speaker 1: do mental descriptions of people, blah blah blah. It goes
23:41
Speaker 1: on and on and on. I can't help but look
23:42
Speaker 1: at the world this way. After years and years and
23:44
Speaker 1: years of training in court, Why is this man counting
23:49
Speaker 1: pills and directing someone else to flush them down the commode.
23:52
Speaker 1: Why does he care if she didn't take her blood
23:54
Speaker 1: pressure medicine, she's dead. Yeah, great points, Nancy. It sounds
23:56
Speaker 1: like you would make a great trial witness. You're the
23:59
Speaker 1: dream is that actually pays as attention and remembers all
24:01
Speaker 1: of these details. But you're right, I mean, jurors get this.
24:04
Speaker 1: Of course, you would be concerned with the deceased, with
24:07
Speaker 1: your loved one, not these ancillary details which might only
24:11
Speaker 1: be important if you were the one that committed the murder,
24:13
Speaker 1: but otherwise wouldn't be. You would be more concerned with emotions,
24:17
Speaker 1: with feelings, with working through the trauma of what have
24:20
Speaker 1: just happened, rather than, like you say, counting pills, whether
24:23
Speaker 1: somebody had taken blood pressure medication. All of that would
24:26
Speaker 1: come far afterwards, after the grieving process has been completed.
24:30
Speaker 1: You know, I got a bigger problem. But hold on,
24:33
Speaker 1: let me go back to Chris Sperry with me. Retired
24:35
Speaker 1: chief medical Examiner doctor Chris Berry. I don't like the
24:38
Speaker 1: sound of it, Chris, about somebody getting rid of pills
24:42
Speaker 1: on the same Why would he do that? He's not
24:45
Speaker 1: only a lawyer. He's a doctor like you. Oh, I
24:48
Speaker 1: don't like the sound that would either. I mean, you're
24:50
Speaker 1: absolutely correct. Number one, he's destroying potential evidence because that's
24:56
Speaker 1: the numbers of pills, how many have been taken, how
24:59
Speaker 1: many are left him. That's crucial information for the police
25:03
Speaker 1: and the medical examiner. And also notice he's involving someone else.
25:07
Speaker 1: I mean to me, this just screams that he is
25:11
Speaker 1: not only destroying evidence, but he's creating an alibi by
25:15
Speaker 1: having someone, an uninvolved person with him to participate in this,
25:20
Speaker 1: to somehow established legitimacy for what he is doing. Well,
25:25
Speaker 1: listen to this, dater Sperry, I need you on this
25:27
Speaker 1: because according to neighbors, they Russian and they see McNeill
25:32
Speaker 1: working to revive his wife. But they say McNeill was
25:36
Speaker 1: performing a quote bizarrely ineffective CPR on Michelle. What could
25:43
Speaker 1: that mean? A bizarrely in effective How are you supposed
25:47
Speaker 1: to perform CPR? I mean I learned it when I
25:49
Speaker 1: was a camp counselor. Okay, but that was a long
25:51
Speaker 1: time ago. What should he have done? He should have
25:55
Speaker 1: been pushing on the chests in the middle of the chest,
25:58
Speaker 1: well back it up, back it up. Don't you have
26:00
Speaker 1: to go down on a hard surface. You can't do
26:01
Speaker 1: it on a bed. Didn't you learn anything from the
26:03
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson case. Well, yes, that's exactly it. Thank you,
26:06
Speaker 1: Thanks for granted. I take joy in correcting and MD
26:10
Speaker 1: because it never happens ever. Okay, go ahead. Well, you know,
26:15
Speaker 1: like I said, let me enjoy my moment. It's the details.
26:19
Speaker 1: It's the detail. Well, no, you put the you put
26:22
Speaker 1: the person on a hard surface. Yes, you can't. You
26:25
Speaker 1: can't do CPR on a bed effectively at all. You
26:28
Speaker 1: have to have them on the floor to start with.
26:31
Speaker 1: And then you have to push on the front of
26:34
Speaker 1: the chest, the center of the chest. Uh, you know,
26:37
Speaker 1: you push hard enough that you're pumping blood, making the
26:40
Speaker 1: heart pump blood. But of course you don't want to
26:43
Speaker 1: push too hard. But that's difficult unless you're a whole COGAN.
26:47
Speaker 1: And during intermittently you stop and give breath, that is,
26:53
Speaker 1: you give rescue breath to the person. So usually it's
26:56
Speaker 1: about fifteen pumps and then two breaths and alterating that
27:00
Speaker 1: back and forth to try to get air into the
27:04
Speaker 1: person's lungs and to keep the blood circulating as best
27:08
Speaker 1: as possible to get oxygen to the tissues. And this
27:11
Speaker 1: is something that you do and repeat. Well, listen to this.
27:14
Speaker 1: What do you make of this? Because, according to witnesses,
27:18
Speaker 1: doctor McNeil had Michelle slumped down in the bathtub still
27:24
Speaker 1: and was quote performing CPR on her as she slumped
27:29
Speaker 1: over in the bathtub. You know, wouldn't you at least
27:32
Speaker 1: lay or flat in the bathtub and jumped down into
27:34
Speaker 1: the bathtub and straddle her. I mean, again, I'm not
27:37
Speaker 1: an MD, but I think that's what I would try
27:39
Speaker 1: to do if I can't get the person out of
27:41
Speaker 1: the tub. I mean, you should see my son Chris.
27:44
Speaker 1: You wouldn't believe it. He's now almost five eight, he's eleven.
27:47
Speaker 1: I call him my big horse affectionately, of course. And
27:50
Speaker 1: I mean, if I had to perform cprn somebody I
27:52
Speaker 1: couldn't lift, I jump in the tub and straddle I'm
27:55
Speaker 1: gonna try it that way. But she slumped over nobody,
27:57
Speaker 1: you know. The neighbor remembers it very well. Yeah, that's
28:00
Speaker 1: that's just that sounds so strange. You know, especially if
28:04
Speaker 1: he's a trained physician, he's going to know that you
28:08
Speaker 1: have to have the person flat and if he can't
28:10
Speaker 1: get his wife out of the bathtub, well, you're right,
28:13
Speaker 1: you get in there with her. It's a big, a
28:15
Speaker 1: big tub, and there's space for everybody. Okay, so we
28:17
Speaker 1: already know he was not getting the adequate chess compression
28:21
Speaker 1: because of the angle of Michelle. Even a neighbor untrained
28:24
Speaker 1: in medical procedures knew that. Okay, Karen start, Are you
28:27
Speaker 1: sitting down right now? I need to know, of course. Okay,
28:30
Speaker 1: you better lay down for this. Listen. Your mother was
28:32
Speaker 1: had a funeral on the saturday following her down. Yes.
28:37
Speaker 1: Following the funeral, was there a gathering with family for
28:40
Speaker 1: a lunch? Yes? Was your father present? Yes? Did you
28:47
Speaker 1: observe his demeanor at that luncheon? Yes? What was he doing?
28:52
Speaker 1: He was making jokes about being single and just laughing
28:58
Speaker 1: and made me sick. I've left crime stories with Nancy Grace.
29:16
Speaker 1: Your mother was had a funeral on the saturday following
29:19
Speaker 1: her death. Yes. Following the funeral, was there gathering with
29:23
Speaker 1: family for a lunch? Yes? Was your father present? Yes?
29:28
Speaker 1: What was he doing? He was making jokes about being
29:35
Speaker 1: single and just laughing and made me sick. I've left
29:40
Speaker 1: you just heard Michelle McNeill's daughter, describing her father joking
29:44
Speaker 1: at her mom's funeral quote, I'm a single man. Now
29:48
Speaker 1: what now? I know that defense attorneys would have a
29:52
Speaker 1: fuel day with me arguing that's probative. But Karen Stark,
29:55
Speaker 1: what do you make of doctor Martin McNeil, doctor Anna Lawyer.
30:00
Speaker 1: He's the one that wants her to get a facelift.
30:02
Speaker 1: You've seen her pictures, Karen Star and everybody. You can
30:04
Speaker 1: see her photos atcrimeline dot com. She's gorgeous. She doesn't
30:09
Speaker 1: need a facelift. Now that's me on the outside looking in.
30:12
Speaker 1: He's the one that makes her get a facelift. He's
30:15
Speaker 1: the one that overprescribes, gets a lot, a lot, a
30:17
Speaker 1: lot of painkillers. He's the one that finds the body
30:20
Speaker 1: along with his little girl. He's the one that performs
30:23
Speaker 1: the fake CPR on her. And now he's laughing about
30:26
Speaker 1: being single at her funer roll. Well, Nancy, he's a psychopath.
30:32
Speaker 1: So none of this is the least bit surprising to me.
30:35
Speaker 1: I don't even have to sit down. Psychopaths cannot form
30:39
Speaker 1: emotional attachments or feel real empathy for others, so and
30:43
Speaker 1: they often mimic emotions. So he doesn't even have any feelings.
30:48
Speaker 1: He doesn't know in this case, to pretend that he
30:52
Speaker 1: should be feeling bad about what happened, He's going to
30:57
Speaker 1: totally disregard the fact that this is a funeral and
31:00
Speaker 1: he's narcissistic. So he's going to talk about being single
31:03
Speaker 1: and what's next for him. Okay, So Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor,
31:08
Speaker 1: author of Red Flags, way in on that place. I mean,
31:10
Speaker 1: at the funeral. I guess it could be argued that
31:13
Speaker 1: he was out of his mind with grief. Yeah. That's
31:15
Speaker 1: a really tough one though, because after a funeral, after
31:18
Speaker 1: we've just been discussing the death of a loved one,
31:20
Speaker 1: and they're no doubt where people sharing memories, to be
31:23
Speaker 1: discussing the fact that you are now a single man
31:26
Speaker 1: is inappropriate. However, you look at it even and I
31:29
Speaker 1: appreciate Karen's comments, I think they're right on the money.
31:31
Speaker 1: That would be something a jury would pick up on,
31:33
Speaker 1: probably more than physical evidence, that how do you behave
31:37
Speaker 1: right after suffering this type of a loss, and what
31:40
Speaker 1: does that say about your state of mind? This is
31:43
Speaker 1: very powerful evidence and it's kind of instinctive evidence that
31:47
Speaker 1: everyone knows is wrong, and everyone knows is suspicious, and
31:52
Speaker 1: that is exactly what you have here. It's almost as
31:54
Speaker 1: if he couldn't contain himself from expressing the way he
31:57
Speaker 1: really felt about the death. Take a listen to our
31:59
Speaker 1: friends Oxygen. A few days after her mother's death, Alexis
32:03
Speaker 1: starts piecing things together. I thought about phone calls at
32:09
Speaker 1: bizarre hours. My mom was concerned that my father was
32:12
Speaker 1: having an affair, him giving her too much medication. After
32:16
Speaker 1: the procedure, all of my mom's things that were in
32:20
Speaker 1: the room were now gone. It was like a bolt
32:23
Speaker 1: of lightning. It's going right through me. You were hearing
32:28
Speaker 1: the daughter looking back on what was happening around the
32:31
Speaker 1: time of her mom's death. You know, to you, Stephen
32:34
Speaker 1: Lampley detective at Stephen Lampley dot com. This woman, I
32:38
Speaker 1: don't think they've even had her funeral yet, and he's
32:40
Speaker 1: cleaning out all of her stuff and getting rid of it,
32:42
Speaker 1: corning it off to goodwill. Yeah, that's that's an indicator
32:46
Speaker 1: everything else being equal as long through the investigation and everything,
32:49
Speaker 1: and then you have somebody show up at the funeral
32:52
Speaker 1: and then go home and start cleaning house. Flag. Yeah,
32:56
Speaker 1: red flag. When do you can add that into your
32:58
Speaker 1: book Red Flag. Stephen Lampley and Dave Mack. I don't
33:02
Speaker 1: know if you heard the daughter, but didn't I hear
33:04
Speaker 1: her say something about affair? Aren't you leaving out another
33:08
Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle, David Mack, Nancy, there was another.
33:11
Speaker 1: There were a number of affairs, but the one she's
33:13
Speaker 1: referred to one number of affairs, A number of affairs?
33:17
Speaker 1: Why was she even still with him? Why not just
33:19
Speaker 1: marry the yard dog out front and the lounging on
33:22
Speaker 1: the porch. I mean a number of affairs, Nancy. You
33:25
Speaker 1: know as well as I do that most of us
33:27
Speaker 1: don't know the inner workings of a marriage between a
33:29
Speaker 1: couple and the reasons they may show. Dave mac But
33:32
Speaker 1: I know what af ai R means. That typically means
33:36
Speaker 1: your husband is sleeping around. And as I always say,
33:39
Speaker 1: open marriage, open casket. That's what I always say to David.
33:42
Speaker 1: But long story short, a number of affairs. When you
33:45
Speaker 1: say that, I guarantee you it's not Michelle McNeill having
33:48
Speaker 1: a number of affairs. It's doctor Martin McNeill. Does the
33:52
Speaker 1: name jipsy ring a bell in your mind? Dave Mack, Yes, ma'am.
33:55
Speaker 1: She was the main affair. She came up right after.
33:58
Speaker 1: Do you want to deal with when when they actually
34:00
Speaker 1: brought her into this whole thing, because it's sickening down. Okay,
34:05
Speaker 1: yeah again, please care and start. You're very delicate, laid
34:08
Speaker 1: down for this place, all right. Gypsy was one of
34:13
Speaker 1: the affairs, well, actually was the affair that was going
34:15
Speaker 1: on at the time Michelle was murdered. And at the funeral,
34:21
Speaker 1: where Martin was acting inappropriately, there was mention of needing
34:27
Speaker 1: a nanny to help out with the younger kids, and
34:30
Speaker 1: he presented this person, Gypsy, as somebody that needs to
34:34
Speaker 1: be the nanny to help me care for the children.
34:37
Speaker 1: But according to the kids, she Gypsy prepared one meal
34:41
Speaker 1: and then spent her time at night not downstairs in
34:44
Speaker 1: her nanny room, but upstairs in daddy's room with the
34:47
Speaker 1: door shut. He had been involved. Martin had been involved
34:50
Speaker 1: with this Gypsy for some time. Doctor Chris Berry, how
34:54
Speaker 1: many times do you see a woman end up dead
34:57
Speaker 1: a wife and then you find out the husband having
35:00
Speaker 1: an affair. An affair does not a killer make, But
35:04
Speaker 1: if you look back on wives ending up dead at
35:07
Speaker 1: the hands of their husbands, very often you find affairs,
35:11
Speaker 1: So I guess the converse would be true. It's the
35:13
Speaker 1: same old story, Doctor Chris Sperry. It definitely is. It
35:18
Speaker 1: shows that there has been planning, very careful planning, in fact,
35:23
Speaker 1: planning to exit the marriage. And because the man is
35:27
Speaker 1: already taking up with someone else, you know, abruptly out
35:30
Speaker 1: of nowhere, seemingly, and so all of this makes the
35:34
Speaker 1: death of the wife very, very very suspicious. Uh, there's
35:40
Speaker 1: there are no coincidences that you know in the world,
35:43
Speaker 1: and I don't think this is a coincidence at all.
35:45
Speaker 1: This this screams planning to me, not just happenstance. Take
35:50
Speaker 1: a listen to this. He said he gave her some OxyS,
35:53
Speaker 1: some sleeping feels, and then um got her to get
35:56
Speaker 1: in the bathtub. Did he say what he did next?
36:00
Speaker 1: Later on, he just said he had to help her out.
36:04
Speaker 1: And I asked him what that was, and he said
36:06
Speaker 1: he held her head under the waterfall a little while.
36:09
Speaker 1: He said that she was in the way, that she
36:12
Speaker 1: wanted the house and the kids. He said they couldn't
36:15
Speaker 1: prove that he did anything. Wow, you're hearing from a
36:20
Speaker 1: then friend of doctor Martin McNeil. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor author.
36:25
Speaker 1: I've read the flags on Amazon. You know what, sometimes
36:29
Speaker 1: you got to go to hell to get your witnesses
36:31
Speaker 1: to put the devil in jail. How many times have
36:34
Speaker 1: I had to tell that to a jury when I
36:35
Speaker 1: had a stinky witness? Long story short, Wendy, Why do
36:38
Speaker 1: people blab? Why can't they just shut the hay up? Yeah?
36:41
Speaker 1: You know, Nancy. Part of the way in which many
36:44
Speaker 1: cases are proven is exactly like this. This is obviously
36:46
Speaker 1: after the fact, or before the fact, whatever it is,
36:49
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. People tend to talk about what they did.
36:52
Speaker 1: And I'm sure Karen and the other psychologists that join
36:54
Speaker 1: us on the show can explain exactly why that is
36:57
Speaker 1: human nature to even talk about the sins and the
37:01
Speaker 1: crimes you've committed. Let people do it, and law enforcement
37:03
Speaker 1: and good law enforcement techniques take advantage of that. And
37:06
Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened here In case you're wondering, listen, well, Visury,
37:10
Speaker 1: having reviewed the evidence in testimony in the case I
37:13
Speaker 1: had defendant as to Calhoun murder guilty to obstruction justice guilty.
37:21
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill, the doctor and lawyer, found guilty of murdering wife,
37:28
Speaker 1: Michelle McNeill. But that's not the end of the story,
37:32
Speaker 1: Dave Matt what's the final end of the story? Martin
37:34
Speaker 1: McNeil was actually he apparently committed suicide while in prison.
37:39
Speaker 1: He was found in the yard area unresponsive. He had
37:44
Speaker 1: threatened suicide in the past. That was his go to
37:46
Speaker 1: response whenever he was caught doing something, and apparently he
37:49
Speaker 1: was successful once he was in prison. This guy, doctor
37:52
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill, I don't know how he kept practicing. Madison
37:55
Speaker 1: had been thrown out of Brigham Young Health Center as
38:00
Speaker 1: of unprofessional conduct misdiagnoses allegations of sex assault's pornography, had
38:07
Speaker 1: affairs with multiple people. One of the women said she
38:10
Speaker 1: was dating a quote serial killer because McNeil had told
38:14
Speaker 1: her he had killed his brother in a bathtub and
38:17
Speaker 1: tried to kill his mother when he was young. I mean,
38:20
Speaker 1: I don't even have time to read the list of
38:22
Speaker 1: offenses this guy got away with, and he took him
38:25
Speaker 1: all to his grave. I got one thing to say,
38:28
Speaker 1: good riddance. Nancy Gray's crime story signing off Goodbye Friend,