Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / MBA Wire Taps 381—Big 4 Sponsored, 690 GMAT. Enlisted military. Stanford Undergrad. Reapplicant, Round 1 or 2.

Transcript

MBA Wire Taps 381—Big 4 Sponsored, 690 GMAT. Enlisted military. Stanford Undergrad. Reapplicant, Round 1 or 2. · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:16
  Speaker A: Welcome to the clear admit MBA admissions podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this is your wiretaps for Monday, September 9, 2024. For more than 100 years, Emory University's Goisueta business school has been a training ground for principal leaders and a laboratory for powerful insights. Whether you're looking to accelerate your career or make a career pivot, Emory's one year and two year full time MBA programs prepare you for a lifetime of career confidence. Learn more about Emory's top 20 MBA with top five career outcomes offering world class academics and small by design classes delivered in a dynamic global city. More Emory Bizdez slash clearadmit. I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, how are things going this week?
• 1:04
  Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Graham.
• 1:06
  Speaker A: So what's the news on deadlines? I mean, we're in the thick of it with round one, right?
• 1:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. We've got plenty of deadlines upcoming this week. Ross, Stamford, Columbia, Yale, INSEad, Kellogg, and Haas all have their round one deadlines this week.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 1:23
  Speaker B: Georgetown and Johns Hopkins Carey have their early action deadlines this upcoming week. So busy. We are definitely motoring along into the thick of round one deadlines.
• 1:35
  Speaker A: All right, well, I want to wish all of our listeners luck. What are you doing? Listening if you have to be writing your applications. But yeah, good luck to everyone who's trying to submit. We are also starting our events for September. We have a webinar series that starts this Wednesday at noon Eastern. I'm going to sit down and moderate a kind of panel discussion with admissions directors from INSEAD, LBS, Wharton, Emory, and Michigan. So that's going to be a lot of fun. It's about an hour of a panel discussion and then each of the schools stick around and bounce off into zoom breakouts to take your questions. So come and join us for that. You can sign up at bit ly insidemba. Alex, I want to make a correction. We spoke last week about this amazing article we published on STEM degrees. So which MBA programs in the US are stem certified? That allows international students to then stay and work in the US for up to three years. And we mentioned that MIT Sloan was not on the list. And it's true they were not in the article, but that was because they were just, it was a mistake. So they are stem certified and they are now in the article and in the chart. Somehow we miss them. So I'm glad that you brought it up last week because that got me thinking, wait, how could they not be stem? And then we talked to our team and they went and did a little bit more digging and found out that it is a stem degree. So you can go to Sloan if you're international and stay and work for three years. There you have it.
• 2:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really important correction, but again, now shows that all top MBA programs are either fully certified throughout the program or have majors that are STEM certified. So, yeah, it's really important, I think. And especially for the international student.
• 3:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, totally. In other news, I got an email from the folks at GMAC announcing that their business writing assessment exam is live. And I was like, oh, what is this? And I remember hearing something about it, but I had forgotten. And so I saw that email and basically, if you go to the Harvard Business School website, you can see that I'm just going to read you a quote from their website. They say writing is an essential component of the MBA program. Therefore, to be admitted to HBS, all students must have an official writing assessment. You can satisfy this with a valid gre, GMAT, 10th edition, which means the old GMAT or english language test score, like the TOEFL, etcetera. If you only submitted the GMAT focus exam, which lacks a writing section, HBS will contact you at the interview stage about taking the separate GMAC business writing assessment. So that's this new test. And Alex, I didn't realize that, you know, that if you take the focus, you might have to do this other test. In the case of HBS. Now, I've heard that there are other schools, I think GMAC actually mentioned in their email. There are a couple other schools that are accepting this test and may require it. So, yeah. What do you think of this? This is kind of news.
• 4:23
  Speaker B: This is a big deal. I think. I wasn't aware of it until you shared this with me before we came on air. But if you think about it, Harvard probably gets a third or half the top tier candidates applying to HBS. I mean, some of them realistically applying, but I mean, they get 810 thousand applications or something like that. So GMAC to roll out its new GMAT test that eliminated the AWA and Harvard to say, actually, no, we like, and we need that writing sample stuff, I think has probably really pushed GMAT to make this decision. I don't know if Harvard influenced that decision or not, but, yeah, by basically saying, go take the GRE, it's like, yeah, clearly GMAT needed some response here.
• 5:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, I'm a little concerned. I mean, I think it's a blow to the GMAT focus or the new GMAT exam in some respects. If you're applying to Harvard, and you then think, wow, if I get to the interview stage, I'm going to take this other test, and I understand why they're doing it in the sense that, like you were saying before we came on air with chat, GPT, and all these tools, getting someone to do writing under timed conditions where they can't get something, you know, machine to write for them is important. And I think Harvard's right. Writing is a big component in their MBA program with all the case reviews, et cetera. So, in any event, just this is developing. We'll keep everyone informed. I did want to turn to. While we're talking about tests, I wanted to turn to a couple of admissions tips that we ran, and one of them is on GMAT and Gre Wa. So, like, we have two articles, actually, there's an article about which schools don't require a test in case you want to list, but the other article is whether or not you should request a waiver. And you are quoted in that article, Alex. I don't know if you remember giving a quote for that, but they. You know, what's your view on these waivers? I mean, we get into a lot of detail in the article, but what's your take? Yeah, that's what your quote was, more or less. Yeah. No, I think that's one thing that I want to add to that piece, which I'll just mention here, because our listeners deserve extra strategic advice, I think, is that we don't talk about it in the article, but I think where merit scholarships come into play, I think having a nice test score can be useful. Right? So if you think you're a good test taker, you know, don't. Don't take the easy way out. I mean, one of the things you talk about in the article, Alex, is you talk about how you got to put your best foot forward. This is a competitive process, and you. You got to go all in and show that you have energy and effort behind this. And not taking a test could suggest that you're looking for the easy way in, you know? So, in any event, we have a big article about that. You can read it, or a tip, I guess. And then we also did a tip on how to tackle video essays, how to talk about the school that you're applying to, and your essays, as well, like in avoiding what we call the comparison trap. So you have to read that article to learn more about that. And then we also did a great piece about visa requirements is more for the international crowd. But when I say international I mean, anyone that's thinking of studying at a program that's not in their country of citizenship. So we have all the visa requirements for key markets like Germany, France, UK, US, Canada, basically, where there's a great MBA program. We sort of have all the rules and regulations and a nice chart. So you should read that if you're an international or thinking of studying outside of your home country, because it's useful information to have.
• 8:03
  Speaker B: Brilliant. Yeah.
• 8:05
  Speaker A: We also caught up with a bunch of admissions directors for more AdcoM Q and A's on the site. And so we connected with Paula Eicher over at IMD. And she, you know, I wanted to share something that she said, because their process is kind of different from some other schools. So we always asked our interviewees, what's the sort of operational process when the candidate submits their app? And so she said that once someone's submitted, a rigorous and comprehensive process begins to ensure that we select those who not only have strong academic and professional backgrounds, but who also align with our values and vision for leadership excellence. So I'll get to the chase here, though, because the interesting thing is that after they do this review of the file and it's complete, they then have three rounds of kind of admissions reading to determine whether or not that person gets moved on. And the reason I'm mentioning this is because the thing that they get moved on to is rather unique. They have this thing called the assessment event. So what she says is, she says, applicants who pass these initial reviews are invited to a group assessment event, where members of the admissions committee evaluate them through various exercises and interactions to gauge their leadership potential, teamwork skills, and fit with the IMD culture. Does that sound familiar to you, Alex?
• 9:25
  Speaker B: Is that what Wharton tries to do?
• 9:27
  Speaker A: Well, I think Wharton is actually their process of interviewing. The team based discussion was inspired by IMDA, who've been doing this apparently for many, many, many years. And what's interesting is IMD, it's like a whole day, if I know, or it's many hours, and they're different kinds of exercises and activities. And then after that, in some cases, they then do an evaluative interview of the candidate and et cetera. So, anyway, I just thought that was interesting for people to know. If you're looking at IMD, they have a sort of unique process. And I think that makes sense. It fits with, they're kind of a smaller program. They really spend a lot of time getting to know all their applicants, which.
• 9:59
  Speaker B: They can, and when's their start date? Are they also out of cycle on their start date, or is that program.
• 10:05
  Speaker A: No, you're right. They start January. Yeah. So that they are.
• 10:09
  Speaker B: So they do a lot of different things.
• 10:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Then we caught up with Bailey McChesney over at Vanderbilt, and she said, we asked her for advice about essays, and she said, I thought this was great. The essay portion of the application is where candidates have the most control, and the biggest mistake that we see from applicants is not recognizing how much value strong essays can add to their application. So I just thought that was important advice to share. And she goes on from there to give some very practical advice about just making sure that you're making the most of those essay questions. But I thought that was nice to hear. It really is something we've talked about, too, where you have a lot of control, unlike, say, your GPA from many years ago when you were an undergrad. Don't waste the space there on the essays.
• 10:55
  Speaker B: Yeah. Single most important aspect. I mean, obviously, you can't fake essays, right. So the quality of your essays will be fundamental, will correlate heavily with the quality of your experiences, et cetera, et cetera, to date. But that narrative is so super important.
• 11:12
  Speaker A: I agree. Yeah. And then the last thing is, we caught up with Eddie Aspy over at Cornell. Eddie's a great guy. I don't know if anyone listening has met him, but if you ever get the chance, Eddie is a terrific admissions director over at Cornell. And he said, we always ask, what's something you wish people knew more about your program? And he says, I wish applicants knew more about Ithaca, New York and what a wonderful place it is to complete a two year MBA. Ithaca is a hidden gem, and once an applicant comes to visit, we find that they often fall in love with it. I believe the type of applicant interested in our program is very intentional about applying to the program due to our location, smaller class size, and the ability to truly connect with the community. So what do you make of that? Have you been to Ithaca, Alex?
• 11:54
  Speaker B: I don't know. I always get a shiver when I hear the word Ithaca. Winter. I don't know. I just feel like it might be quite a cold place. I mean, they're spending most of their classroom time in Ithaca in the winter, right? Autumn, winter, early spring. But, yeah, I mean, I've heard. I've heard it's beautiful. I've never been. It's interesting. I got a quite. Well, we got a question on Livewire today or yesterday, comparing. Like, why would I go to. Why would someone choose Tuck over Columbia, for example? Oh, I saw that.
• 12:30
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Speaker B: Yeah. And some of it does get to, you know, the type of environments might be much more appealing versus, you know, New York City, etcetera. And I imagine Ithaca also falls into that same bucket.
• 12:45
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah.
• 12:46
  Speaker B: And it also, in Tuck's case, for sure, really helps develop that sort of feel of connection with the MBA program with fellow classmates. And we know that Tuck's alumni are probably the most committed alumni across, you know, across top schools. So I imagine Johnson has a similar sort of. Sort of feel.
• 13:12
  Speaker A: Yeah. And having been to both Hanover and Ithaca, I can definitely attest they are quintessential college towns. And, you know, Ithaca is. It's a pretty stunning setting because of all the, you know, it's on a hill. You know, the school's up on a hill. It's. And, you know, you say autumn, winter cold. They would probably say fall color, apple cider donuts, you know, all the stuff that. Skiing, et cetera. So. But, yeah, no, I think it's worth the visit if you're considering, and you make a good point about that. I did see that post on Livewire. I have one other thing I wanted to get your take on before we dive into this week's candidates. And that is, two schools have already published their class profiles for the students who've just come in, and that's UCLA and Duke. So I'll give you some of the facts and figures, and I just wanted to get your take. So, UCLA, I'll start with Anderson. They have 305 students in the class. That's a little bit higher than last year, where they had 300, but really close. They received 3079 applications, which is a 41% increase over their application volume from the year prior. So kudos to their admissions team. I'm not sure what they did. They probably did a lot of marketing with clear admit. That'd be my guess now, but no. So the mean undergraduate GPA is 3.5. They had an average GMAT score of 714, which is four points higher than last year. And the average GRE. They give kind of both the quant and verbal. And that is. I'll just add them up. 327 is kind of the average overall for their students. They have 43% women in the class, which is also up by 6%. 41 different countries represented, 41% international. They had a lot of us minorities in the class. 57%, actually, of the us candidates qualified as minorities. And then 5.4 years average work experience. So, any thoughts on UCLA Anderson's class profile?
• 15:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's crazy, that rise in applicant volume, we know. Well, we've got a really good sense that applicant volume was up last season.
• 15:12
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 15:13
  Speaker B: But a 41% increase at a school, I think has got to be a bit of an outlier. I don't think we're going to see 41% increase across the board.
• 15:24
  Speaker A: Right.
• 15:24
  Speaker B: So something interesting happened there. Either they really failed the year before or they did something extraordinary last year or whatever, but interesting to try to figure that out. I'm interested, actually, in the average GMAT score. Graham. I assume that's only the traditional GMAT tests included in that number. Did they asterisk out the folks that took the new test?
• 15:50
  Speaker A: You know, I don't have the answer to that question. I'm guessing that either. You're right. It's just old scores, which would have probably comprised the lion's share of those scores. Or if they did include new, they used the concordance table and, you know, kind of converted, but I don't know. Great question.
• 16:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. It'd be good to keep an eye on how schools are treating this because clearly it's going to become a bigger issue in the next year or two. Yeah. When average GMAT scores all of a sudden become 665 and it's like, wow, how come? They dropped like 50 points?
• 16:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we'll keep an eye on that. And you. Actually, I wanted to mention we changed some things on our website to sort of account for old GMAT scores. And new is what we're calling the sort of two different types of tests that's out there now. So the other thing is. So, Duke, I'll give you the duke numbers. They have 427 students in the class that's just derived. That's up a bit from 385. So nice increase in class size. The big news out of Duke, though, is that 51% of their class is female. So that's a big milestone. They had not previously achieved gender parity, and as you know, few MBA programs have. So 51% women. They also continued to see nice upticks in kind of representation from US minorities. But I'll give you some of the numbers here. Let's see. They have 45 countries represented in the class. The international students. There's 41% international. They have an average of six years work experience in the class. I'll give you the numbers. On academics, they don't give averages, they just give the middle 80%. So with GPA, middle 80% is 3.17 to 3.89. The GRE is anywhere from 305 to 330. In terms of total score, GMAT, 660 to 760. So those are the kind of ranges that those test numbers are just. They're more or less the same, except that the bottom end is a little bit lower this year. So last year they had, like, a 306 to 330 GRE. This year's 305. And then same thing that the GMAT score is 660 to 760. Last year, it was 670 to 760. So a little bit of movement there, but otherwise holding pretty steady. And amazing accomplishment with that gender. I mean, just. It's great to see.
• 18:09
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely fantastic. Well done for that. It'll be interesting to see how many other programs emulate that this season. Yeah, I hate this reporting spreads. Instead of when you started going the low number and the high number and the low number and the high number of this average, I tuned out completely. So don't repeat it. But I don't like it.
• 18:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, I prefer just an average, but I know why they're doing it. I mean, I think the danger with the average is that everyone's like, oh, I'm way below. And so this way, you get a sense of, like, where that 80% lives. But, yeah, I agree with you. It's nicer. It'd be nice if all the schools did the exact same thing. That would.
• 18:46
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 18:48
  Speaker A: But anyway. All right, that's all I have. I know we had a lot of kind of stuff to get through before we talk about this week's candidates, but are you ready to do that?
• 18:56
  Speaker B: Let's kick on.
• 18:57
  Speaker A: All right, this is wiretaps candidate number one. So our first candidate this week is applying to just four schools. They've got Dartmouth, Duke, Michigan, and Yale on the list. They want to start school next fall. They're working in consulting, and they're going to stay in consulting, and that is because they work at a big four consulting firm, and they are sponsored, which means that their MBA will be paid for by that firm, and they, as a result, have to come back and work there for a period of time. This person's GMAT score is a 690. Their undergraduate GPA, 3.3. And they've been working for about three and a half years. They studied engineering and computer science in undergrad, where they earned that 3.3. They also mentioned that they hold both us and canadian citizenship. They've been quite involved at work. I mean, they do a lot of support of tech design and implementation for a health and human services government agency. That's been their primary role. But they've done a lot of internal sustainability efforts. And, like, within the firm, they're hoping to use the MBA actually, as a way to develop more sustainability and, you know, and finance fundamentals so they can come back to the firm and lead what they call d carb strategy engagements. They also mentioned they're a white male and that they know that their GMAT and GPA are going to be below average for the schools they're targeting. And they're wondering, Alex, whether or not the sponsorship from their employer will make up for those numbers, because I guess they're thinking, well, I've got a job on the back end, so I'm a safe bet sort of thing. But what do you make of this candidacy?
• 20:33
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think necessarily the sponsorship allows them to get away with slightly lower numbers, but I do really like this candidate. There's just something about the way they've articulated and their passion for sustainability and various other things, and that sort of level of extracurricular type work and stuff sort of suggests to me that they're really quality, individual, and I think schools will resonate with that. Like, they'll pick up on that, assuming the essays and so on and so forth sort of further reflect that. So. And that matters. Like, schools like to admit good people, and I think this is a good person. So. So I. I like that. I am a little bit worried about the combination of three, 3690, both within that ridiculous range that you were talking about for Duke, because they expressed their ranges. So that would give them a little bit of heartening. But if this was a 710, 720 GMAT or 2030 points higher, be much more confident. And especially with the, with the target school's top 16, Duke of which is one of them, they're retaking the GMAt one more time. I think they've taken it a couple of times already. So, you know, at the end of the day, if they can't improve the score this, this last time they take. They're taking it. I think they should just go ahead and pull the trigger, you know, if they have to reevaluate their strategy in round two, I think they can clearly do that. I don't think that they're going to be considered over represented or anything. So they have almost kind of the luxury. They can go into round one, see where the chips land, and then readjust their strategy into round two if they need to. But again, I'm not thrilled with their numbers, but I think there's probably a lot to like in other aspects of this profile that they may well still be successful.
• 22:47
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I want to actually. So you're. You're touching on something that they left us a note about. So they mentioned that in terms of their activities, they do trail running, marathons, triathlons, and they mentioned them. They referred to that as classic west coast outdoor activities. So I guess they're West coast based. They also then said that they recently moved in with their parents to support a younger sibling. And again, they emphasize they're really passionate about sustainable economic development and they're leaning into that work with the government and nonprofit clients to carve this pathway for what they want to do. So I think some of those statements are probably what led you to feel like, hey, this seems like a good person. I do think that, like you said, the sponsorship is not going to give them a pass. And I think some of these schools may balk at their numbers. I'm really hoping that the GMAT comes up when they take it. Again, I believe they were taking it last week, so hopefully that worked out. If not, I agree with you, apply, see where the chips fall and they can either reapply next year with better numbers or they could cast a wider net in round two if they need to. So that's what I would say. But really interesting case and I think I'm glad that they asked that question because I don't think we've ever talked about sponsorship, at least not in this sort lens. So that's great.
• 23:57
  Speaker B: Yeah. And again, sponsorship does have signal value. Totally right. It's saying that the firm really likes this candidate. So it's not all for nothing. There is value there. It's just, does this aspect of the profile overcome another aspect of the profile? And they're not really apples and apples. They're different aspects of the profile. That's my point.
• 24:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. All right, well, I want to thank them for their posts. Let's move on though and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number two. So our second candidate this week has six schools on the target list and they're actually not applying right now. They're going to be applying in about a year. This person, their pre MBA career was that they were an enlisted member of the military working in missile defense. They are thinking about consulting after business school and maybe eventually a move into kind of industry. They do talk about automotive or aerospace manufacturing. They, in the short term, with respect to that consulting goal, they've got a lot of the usual suspects like Bain, BCG and McKinsey on the list. Their GPA in undergrad is a 3.4. I do want to mention though, they haven't finished undergrad yet. They're in the process of doing that. So that's kind of a work in process. They in progress. They have ten years of experience in the military, and here's where things get interesting. This person basically graduated from high school and enlisted, served in the military ten years, then started at a community college and transferred to Stanford University, where they are currently studying mechanical engineering. They have two more years left to finish undergrad, so they're thinking of applying in their senior year. So that'd be next fall to start the fall after. Very unorthodox, Alex, because they've already got their work experience and now they're doing college. They're enlisted. They were an enlisted military, so not from one of the academies or something. So I want to just put this to you. They still have to take the test, I guess their schedule is to take the GMAT in the winter. Right. So they're going to take that in the new year. But what do you make of this? This is a really interesting path.
• 26:01
  Speaker B: Yeah. Like you say, this is very unorthodox.
• 26:05
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
• 26:05
  Speaker B: They're first generation, so I'm guessing they have a really interesting sort of, of lived experience story to tell. And if we can make the assumption that, you know, once they got into the military, they were on an upward trajectory and did some really cool things, etc. Etc. And then they've gone back to complete their. Well, start their undergrad community college, getting a transfer into Stanford, that can't be a trivial accomplishment. I got to think that they must have been doing something really well at the community college in order to get access to Stanford. And, yeah, I mean, I think there's probably some really interesting aspects to this story that could really help them stand out because they will be an unorthodox candidate. Usually, we would say work experience before undergrad doesn't have the same value as work experience as a graduate of an undergraduate program, but these sort of cases are definitely different. So I wish them the best of luck. What can they do now to really elevate their chances is to obviously do really well the final two years at Stanford, really go out of their way to excel, and they can excel in, you know, with the GMAT or GrE or whatever it is that they're taking and have enough time to go back and retake the test if they need to. So, you know, I'd like to see that three, four going up to sort of 3738 or something like that coming out of Stanford. Very, very good. I think you want to root for a candidate like this, Graham.
• 27:59
  Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. I think there's a reason Stanford accepted them as an undergrad. So something in their story must really have resonated and. Yeah, and I feel like the other thing I want to. I was saying to you before we came on air is that this person's probably, like, 28 right now. So it's not like they're, you know, 35 or 40 trying to get an MBA after a lot of experience in the military. So this is an interesting thing because they just sort of reversed the order in which, you know, they're doing things. But I agree with you. Get the grades, keep. You know, I recognize mechanical engineering. Not an easy majority, but, yeah, to the extent that they can push that GPA up a little bit over the next two years, that would be great. And then, yeah, set the test, do well. I feel like they'll get into a lot of these top programs, and I think. I don't know if I mentioned the schools actually, that they're applying to, but they're looking at MIT, Kellogg, Stanford, UCLA, Wharton, and Darden. So they need to get the numbers up and have a great test result. But I think, like you say, the admission team will be rooting for a candidate like this, and it's just a great story. So I think things will go their way if they work. Card.
• 29:01
  Speaker B: Yeah. Fingers crossed.
• 29:03
  Speaker A: All right, so I want to thank them for their post. Let's move on and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number three. So, Alex, this one's a little bit unorthodox in that you picked a question that someone posed on. On the wires. It's a live wire entry, I guess, and it was a question about a guess. They're sort of wondering about their status, and they mentioned that they're a re applicant. Okay. And that they're overrepresented and they're applying to m seven programs. They are currently in the process of switching jobs at the last stages of interviews, and they're also thinking of taking their gre. They. The first time they applied, they applied with a 720 on the GMAT exam. They took the Grenada afterwards and got a 323, but they're taking it again later this month in hopes of getting an even better score. And so they asked us a couple of very specific questions. So, again, reapplicant. They're wondering if it's better to wait and apply in round two, if doing so will allow them to complete their job switch. They're going from, like, a software engineer role to tech consulting at a big four firm and to improve their grenada. So if they take the GRE later this month and they have a better score, they'd be applying in round two with this new job and a better score. The other question they asked is do the odds of acceptance between round one and round two drop? And then finally would they be better off applying in round one and providing updates about the job change and the new test score as soon as they have them? Or again, should they just wait? So Alex, what do you make of this? This is kind of an unusual set of questions.
• 30:46
  Speaker B: Yeah. Long explanation too, Graeme. No, no, no. Very, very good. I mean, it is quite unusual. So the basic rule for a reapplicant is applying the first round, right? So they've been in the process, they've gotten feedback or maybe, maybe not, but they didn't get. They weren't successful. So there's an expectation from the ADCoM that if they're reapplying they'll be in round one. If they end up reapplying and they're in round two, there's a suspicion from the ADCOM that they didn't get an admit at the school that they would have preferred to have gone to, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So they've got to get into the mind of the ADCoM in terms of how to interpret all this. So I'm a big believer that re applicants should be in round one delaying to round two because of the test. That's a little bit. They should have dealt with the test in the summer. We talked about this before we came on air, so that's unfortunate that that hasn't happened yet. But 720. Again, I don't think we absolutely know what schools they were targeting with that 720, but it might be that that wasn't the reason why they were denied. It is a respectable score, it is within range. But the issue that this candidate faces I think are twofold. They're potentially overrepresented. So that's another reason why they should be in round one. And then secondly, this job switch, I find it a little bit troubling because if they switch jobs, even though I recognize that it gives them a whole different set of experience than in that regard, it's very good and they can talk about it, et cetera, et cetera, they won't really be in that new job long enough to actually benefit from that if they then go to school in August next year. So it just seems like it's not the best strategy. I don't know. I just struggle with the job switch more than anything else with this situation.
• 33:01
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I know. Yeah. There's a lot of things we could say here. The two things that jumped out at me right away were number one, when did they apply? Last season. If they applied in round one, what have they been doing all this time? Like, I would have been switching jobs in the spring and getting the test done, like you said, in the summer, so that all my ducks were in a row to apply in round one, as you say, because they're overrepresented. They're reapp. It's great to be in the first round. Now, if I were to tell you they applied in round three and maybe got wait listed or, you know, who knows? Like, then you could say, okay, well, maybe you wait to round two because more things can change and you needed more time to be able to make changes to your candidacy. But it's. I don't know. I tend to agree with you that if this person's kind of overrepresented in a rehab, it's kind of round one. But I do fear that if they're only applying to m seven s, they're probably, they might end up with the same result. So it's dangerous. I think they need to probably cast a wider net. And I agree with you absolutely on the second point about the job, it's a weird time to be changing jobs. And so, I mean, the first question I would have as an admissions reader is, does the new employer know that you're basically going to be leaving, you know, within the year after joining them? And if they don't, what's that say about you? And, you know, that, that, that could be challenging, too. So it's a bit of a. There are a lot of question marks here. I don't know that we have put forth great answers, but I feel like, I don't know. I almost would want them just to apply now with their current job and, like leave that, leave that job switch, you know, off if it hasn't happened yet, you know, and because there's no reason to talk about it and that way they don't raise that issue. And I don't know. This is a challenging case and we probably need to know more. Frankly.
• 34:39
  Speaker B: I don't think we've done a very good job necessarily answering the key questions, but I think talking about these issues as a re applicant, I think we've sort of shared some of the concern that all reapplicants really need to be aware of. Yeah, round one really should be the focus for the majority of folks coming back in.
• 35:01
  Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, Alex, I appreciate your patience this week because we had a lot to cover in terms of news and notes. But again, these candidates, so interesting and some pretty important challenges that they're each facing. And hopefully our listeners find this useful. We'll do it all next week if you're willing.
• 35:18
  Speaker B: Yeah. Brilliant. Best luck, everyone. Take care. Stay safe.