Latest / Equipped for Impact / Heart Transformation Over Behavior Control with guest Brian Baker

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Heart Transformation Over Behavior Control with guest Brian Baker · Equipped for Impact

• 0:07
  Nate: Welcome to Equipped for Impact, the podcast designed to assist Christian parents, leaders, and educators to train up the next generation to stand firm in their faith and influence the world for Christ.
• 0:20
  Nate: We're your hosts.
• 0:21
  Nate: I'm Nate, and I'm Lewis.
• 0:22
  Nate: And we are glad you're here with us today, where we're actually joined with a special guest, uh, Brian Baker.
• 0:30
  Nate: Brian, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 0:33
  Nate: Hey, excited to be with you guys.
• 0:35
  Nate: So, Brian is uh currently the I'm gonna butcher your title, Brian, but it's it's like executive director, you know, head honcho, I don't know, something like that, of uh Word of Life Bible Institute.
• 0:47
  Nate: Um, you know, it's a a two-year uh Bible program, uh college-level Bible program for for students and and all about discipleship.
• 0:56
  Nate: But uh some more about Brian.
• 0:57
  Nate: You know, Brian's been involved in ministry with young people, with students and teenagers and and college students for a really long time.
• 1:05
  Nate: I don't know how many years is it, Brian?
• 1:07
  Nate: Do you know about the topic?
• 1:09
  Nate: Close to 30.
• 1:10
  Nate: Yeah.
• 1:10
  Nate: There we go.
• 1:11
  Nate: So lots of experience.
• 1:12
  Nate: But I think most importantly, Brian is also uh a dad to three.
• 1:16
  Nate: And did I see correctly?
• 1:18
  Nate: You are now a first-time grandparent.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have been elevated.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I am now a grandparent.
• 1:24
  Nate: So elevated to grandparent status, uh, which to our listeners, you know, that that's great for us because you know, Lewis and I can speak as as parents and pastors and teachers, but you know, you've you've been through all the stages and now on to, like you said, elevated to the next stage.
• 1:41
  Nate: So that's that's exciting.
• 1:42
  Nate: How old, how old is the the the grandkid?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my grandson is three and a half months, so we are having a blast.
• 1:49
  Nate: Excellent.
• 1:50
  Nate: Well, that's that's great.
• 1:51
  Nate: So Brian, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:53
  Nate: You know, I just appreciate all the the wisdom that that you bring to the ministry being able to see that firsthand myself.
• 2:00
  Nate: And as we were talking, you know, you brought up, you know, this idea of just kind of as we work with our kids and and disciple our own children or or our students or you know, kids and youth group, church, whatever, you brought up this idea of like behavior modification versus you know that that true heart transformation.
• 2:20
  Nate: And so, you know, I think as parents, we're often tempted to feel like we're winning when our kids are just like they're well behaved, they're respectful, they're compliant, all of that.
• 2:30
  Nate: But why why would you say in your experience that outward behavior is such a deceptive, deceptive metric for spiritual health?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And first of all, let's acknowledge that we do all want our kids to behave well, right?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's we don't want them throwing tantrums in public and all of those things that we have all experienced as parents at some point.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not that behavior doesn't matter, but the problem is I think we typically have it backward as parents and even as educators, as as we look.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I now work for years in in youth ministry, which was more children and teenagers.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And now I work in the higher education world of mainly freshmen and sophomore in college age students.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we can fall into this in this age group as well, and in the past have for sure.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we have it backward.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: The behavior is not the issue.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the behavior is not the problem, but actually, and actually their the behavior isn't the victory either.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the ultimate thing that we're looking for.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so our kids are or any person's behavior is just a symptom of what's going on on the inside, right?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, so if your focus as a parent is on the behavior, uh, if your kids want to comply, they will eventually learn to perform in such a way that makes you or others happy.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then you'll have the rebellious kids that don't care about the performance, and they'll just continue to push back and it will get worse.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so we don't want a performance-driven life for our kids or for ourselves.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: We want a genuine life, a life that's lived for the glory of God.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I think for any listeners, parents, anybody that's listening to this, you know, anybody that's in the sales world, uh, think about it, think about it this way.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: So as a as a salesperson, this may this is a very oversimplification of sales, but we have we like oversimplifications.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: You have you have lead measures and lag measures, okay?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And your your your lead measures, you know, are the things that you do to get the result that you want.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the lag measures are the results.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the results what you want.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: The the end product is if you're a salesman, you want to sell more product, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you also know as a salesman, if I want to sell more product, that there are certain things that I have to do along the way.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Relationships I have to build, phone calls I have to make, visits I have to make, research I have to do in order to get to the end goal that I want.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I think about our kids, you know, the behavior side of them is maybe what we want.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: We do want, we desire to see the change in their life.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: But what we need to know and remember is that that doesn't happen without all of these things that happen behind the scenes or on the inside that lead to that change.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you can manipulate that, and you know, you can you can tape or staple fake fruit on a tree and make it look like it's fruitful, but eventually all that's exposed, right?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the that's the reality.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, Proverbs 423 says, keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life, right?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So eventually what's on the inside's gonna come out.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so the danger of behavior modification is that you never address the heart.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if the heart's never addressed, the long-term ramifications of that will not be good.
• 6:12
  Nate: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:12
  Nate: And I think sometimes it's it's quicker, you know, to in the moment, you know, your child is misbehaving or, you know, student and youth group in the classroom, whatever, and you just wanna you wanna address the behavior right away.
• 6:26
  Nate: So, like, how can you in moments like that slow down and make sure you're addressing both the behavior and and that heart that, like you said, is that lead measure kind of behind driving that behavior?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in the moment is where the rubber meets the road, right?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in a grocery store and and your toddler is throwing a fit or wants you to buy them something that that you're not gonna buy them, and so the there's the temptation to not want to be embarrassed by to because of those around you, and so you you give in to that pressure, or you want to show yourself as dominant in front of other people, and so you scold that child publicly, or you even discipline that child publicly, and neither are are good.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I just you know, for me, it's in that moment, you have to remember what you want.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: That that's where you need to go.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I you go going way back, one of my mentors, and you know him well, is Mike Calhoun, and Mike used to say this about discipline, and now I'm not talking discipline like disciplining your children, I'm talking discipline like spiritual discipline or physical, you know, discipline in that way.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Discipline is remembering what you want.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so really good, you know, that's ultimately what it is.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: So in the moment when I could choose to if my if for me it is, you know, a weight loss goal or a health goal, well, in the moment when I'm standing in at the refrigerator, at the refrigerator, I have to remember what I want, right?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be healthy and therefore I'm gonna choose this over this.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the same is true when you're when you're in the moment with your children, is you have to remember what you want.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want instant ease or do you want to just make this situation go away and and make yourself feel better and them feel better in the moment, then you can do that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: But the once again, the long-term ramifications are going to be difficult.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you're in that moment, you know, I just encourage you, you have to, you kind of have to take a step back.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's in a public setting, it you really you have to remove yourself and your child from that setting.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Could that mean leaving a shopping cart of groceries and you go and find a restroom to have a private conversation with your child?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: It might, like I don't know.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um but in the home, in the moment, it's not yelling, it it's not demanding a certain action from them.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and so what I encourage parents to do, and I didn't always do this well, see, it's a lot easier when you get older and look back and realize all the things you you did wrong in the growing process you go through.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I encourage, you know, when when there's a discipline moment, you send that child to their room, and then you gather yourself, you pray, if your spouse is there, you guys talk about it, and then under control, you walk into that situation and you begin to address the root issue, not just the behavior, which is the fruit, but the root, what's really going on.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Several years ago, when I used to do a podcast, a youth ministry podcast, I had Dr.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Tripp on the podcast who wrote Shepherding a Child's Heart, which is an amazing book.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And in that interview, he he I was talking to him about how do you have conversations in small groups with teenagers, and and he gave me a question to ask that I also have applied to parenting.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: That is when we're talking to our kids, once they get to a certain age and they can understand, ask the question, help me understand.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you know, so going into you know, uh first of all, you have to address what happened, right?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is what happened, this is what you did.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you're not fully sure, you're asking questions what happened, you know.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then instead of making accusations, you ask questions.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when you ask questions like help me understand, what you're doing is you're saying to your kid that I care more about what's going on on the inside than just what your outward actions were.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: So help me understand why you reacted.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: When your brother took that toy from you, I'm talking smaller children here, and you then took another toy and clubbed them upside the head with it.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh help me understand why you did that and what you were thinking.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, and the reason, you know, you've you've probably heard this quote many times, but you know, accusation hardens the heart, but a question pricks the conscience.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so you're not just saying you did this, you were wrong, you need to go say you're sorry to your brother or sister.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that is many times how we address it.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And is saying you're sorry, right?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: But we didn't ever get to the to the heart of the issue.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, when you when you think about getting in that moment, asking good questions, you're not just asking what they did.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you need to know that, even why they did it.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: You want to know what is going on in the heart and led them to a place of of making this decision.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh, you know, you were asking about in the moment.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of took it farther than in the moment.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: But no, that's that's good.
• 12:06
  Nate: Hey, and you you mentioned, you know, apologies.
• 12:09
  Nate: And this is something that we, you know, especially in a school context where where Lewis and I, you know, do most of our ministry is is a school context, but we talked you mentioned apologies and yes, you should apologize and and all of that.
• 12:21
  Nate: But especially with older children and teenagers, you know, you want you don't want to force that because there's it's disingenuous, right?
• 12:31
  Nate: Because a true apology is going to come from the heart.
• 12:33
  Nate: So how do you balance that, whether it's with your kids or other people, of like trying to point out that they should apologize and practicing that, you know, while at the same time not forcing something that is in the end, if they're just doing it and it's disingenuous, it's just behavior modification.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's a great question.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly I I do not like when I see a parent force their child to apologize when they're not ready to apologize because there's nothing genuine about it.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Tell them you're sorry.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Tell them you're sorry.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well that didn't what did that accomplish?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: It it it accomplished that just saying the words is all I need to do.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really need to address what really what really happened here.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And this is true, you know, all the way up through the age group that I'm working with now and when when we deal with this.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so before before an apology can ever happen, there has to be a a helpful recognition.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have to help that young person recognize what's wrong.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: What they did that was wrong, their how their response was wrong.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: They need to be able to acknowledge that because if they can't acknowledge that, they can't have they can't genuinely apologize or even ask forgiveness.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Which by the way, just a side note, like there's a difference between those two things too.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can you know, I I could walk by and accidentally knock a cup of coffee off of your desk, totally accident, and I would apologize to you because I did that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't necessarily need to ask your forgiveness for that.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I did not intentionally offend you, but you know, but when somebody has done something wrong to another person and there's an intention there, then there does need to be eventually an apology, but you can't you can't rush to that.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: You have to help them process through do you understand why what you did was wrong, what was going on.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Help me understand what was going on in your heart and in your mind, what were you thinking, and help them work through biblically what that what that looks like, and then you know, ultimately we help them learn like Matthew 18 and what it looks like to confront a brother and Matthew, is it five, where it's you know, uh more if someone has, you know, there's offended you and if you've offended, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're dealing with it from both sides, and I I would not encourage an apology before they're actually ready for it to be genuine.
• 15:04
  Luis: So Brian, just as a follow-up to that question, one of the things that we see a lot in our realm in education, and I'm sure parents see it too, is oftentimes a child will show remorse or be apologetic, but it's more because they got caught, right?
• 15:24
  Luis: And so what's what's the difference between a child who is sorry that they got caught and a child who is sorry for for their sin or and and a true recognition of wow, that that that was a sin I lied or I was prideful or I was angry.
• 15:43
  Luis: And then how can we as parents help our kids see the difference, especially maybe even look at it from different age groups, right?
• 15:50
  Luis: Because the way that that conversation is going to happen with an eight-year-old is probably different than the way it's happening with an 18-year-old.
• 15:58
  Luis: Yeah, Lewis, that's a great question.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, first of all, obviously as a parent, we want you know, we want the latter.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: We want a sor a child who's or or a teenager or whoever that's sorry for what they've done genuinely, and not just sorry because the because they got caught.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh obviously that's our desire.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, part of working through this process is how we respond to them in those moments.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it a lot of the way that they're gonna view moving forward from when they have done something wrong is is how those that lead them respond when they did something wrong.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so the question we have to ask is what is our desire for them?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: What what do we truly this teenager, this child, they have clearly done something they shouldn't have done, they didn't come and confess it, they got caught doing it, and now I don't necessarily see the remorse that I'd like to see for the sin.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just see somebody who doesn't like the consequences, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's that's kind of the scenario we're talking about here.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have to be able to express our desire for what we want to see in their life.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they aren't always going to receive that, but we have to express that our desire is not that they never do a specific action ever again.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's you know, you ever you ever you ever made a you ever said to someone, well, I'll forgive you if you if you promise to never do it again.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like okay.
• 17:43
  Nate: Who can make that promise?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can't make that promise because I know I'm gonna do it again.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an idiot.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: What you know, I I make bad choices sometimes.
• 17:50
  Nate: So we want our eight-year-old to make the promise.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but what we've done with that is we put it back to behavior, right?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you and so what I encourage is is that in your conversation, it's less about what they did, and it's more about the sinfulness in our heart, the rebellion that is against God, that God knows us yet still chooses to love us and still chooses to forgive us, and that we, you know, we have a loving God.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there are consequences for our sin.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: There, and you are gonna face some consequences because of your sin.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I want you to know those consequences are there because I want you to have the kind of relationship with the Lord that understands this forgiveness and moving and moving forward.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it boy, it's it's hard because we we deal with that even at a collegiate level.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: There are some times that that students have to face discipline for things that they did, and sometimes they come and confess it, and then sometimes they don't.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And even many times when I'm sitting down, which if it's if it gets to my office, it's usually a fairly elevated situation, but there are times where we sit down with a student and say, and I will say these very words, this is gonna go a lot better for you if you're just honest about what's going on.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want and I'll say this we want to help you, we want to be able to restore you.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: There are some there are some violations that could lead to you being dismissed from school.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's possible, but ultimately that's not our desire, it's for restoration.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and so in having that conversation, I'm trying to I'm trying to soften what my response is gonna be, even though there might be consequences.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so a child is gonna be more likely to hide their sin if when they do sin their parents blow up on them.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're gonna be more likely to to hide those things and and be fearful.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: If if my children are more fearful of how I'm gonna respond, then they are desiring to come to me because they think that I might be able to help them, then I'm not in a good place.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now that doesn't happen when they're young.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that happens as you build a relationship over time.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had you know conversations with all of my none of my kids are teenagers anymore.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: My youngest are 20, and so but as they were in their teenage years, I I believe we were able to establish a relationship where they knew they could come to me or to my wife about things, and we were not gonna lose our minds on them, but we genuinely wanted to help them.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you've probably heard this, you know, a scenario of this, and thankfully as a parent, this never happened to me.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, we I told my kids if you're ever in a situation, uh, even if you put yourself in that situation by poor choices that you need help, then you call me and I will come get you.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't it I don't care what's happening, I will come get you.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there maybe be consequences later for the situation you put yourself in, yes.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But that doesn't change the fact of my love for you and I will come get you and I will drive you home.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And in that moment, we won't even have that conversation.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: We'll probably have it the next day, but we probably now I I we I I never had to experience that as a parent, but my kids knew like my kids knew that that was because what do I want?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want the best for them.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and yeah, so yeah, Lewis, that's a great question.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not an easy answer, but I think.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: the the best uh thing that we think about is uh our response.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: What is our response to them?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that will dictate the future of how they talk to you and come to you with things.
• 22:12
  Luis: That's actually a really good segue in in into my next question is as parents, we can't lead our kids someplace that we've not gone before.
• 22:22
  Luis: And so as as you talked about the the heart of the parent and where we are so how do we work on our own heart before working with our child's heart?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah no this is this is so true.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been in leadership for quite a few years and I've in in the last four or five years I've let you know led more people leading more people than I ever thought I would.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just one thing I've learned in in that time and this is not even about being a parent this is about being a leader and then it it translates into parenting as well.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that is that the hardest person I am ever going to lead is me.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know I'll ask people sometimes I've actually taught seminars on this subject on on kind of sounds a little weird but like self-leadership on leading yourself.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll ask the question in a in a group setting like who's the hardest person you've ever had to lead and sometimes people describe someone with a certain personality or you know and and and eventually we just get around to realizing that the hardest person I'm ever going to lead is me.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is if I can't lead myself then I really can't expect my kids to follow any kind of example that I'm gonna I'm gonna set for them.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't mean perfection because we we we don't we do not we're not gonna experience that in this life.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it it is important when when we do that that we identify that we need to lead ourselves well.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that you know I think the one of the core basics of that is humility.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And with humility is a recognition that I need help I can't do this on my own and ultimately that help comes from the Lord right and I also need other people around me to help me to hold me accountable and and and so yeah if so you know we if if I'm expecting or asking my kids to do something that I'm not willing to do myself you know the old saying do as I say not as I do doesn't work.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: No and that that's kind of a saying I think from when I was a kid that was like okay they're an adult I listen to what they say it doesn't matter what they're doing.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And as a child you should listen you know and respect your parents but we need to set the example and and sometimes our kids end up setting an example for us that we have to jump on board and follow.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah we you you can't do it if you're not living it yourself.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we talk about things like time in God's word at our house and so if I'm not spending time in God's word what you know how could I ever expect my kids to to do that.
• 25:11
  Nate: Yeah and it kind of kind of going back to your you know the whole lead measures versus lag measures, right?
• 25:17
  Nate: We've spent a lot of time talking about the in the moment, you know, apologies and and all of that and I think this opens up that section of you know how do we as parents you know before there's a conflict before our kids inevitably need some correction and redirection you know how do we lay that groundwork for them?
• 25:37
  Nate: I mean you mentioned you know devotions quiet time you know whatever what what other things you know can help lay that groundwork for that relationship so that inevitably when the moment comes you've got that that foundation to work from yeah I mean some of the things I'll say won't be very popular but I'll I'll say some of them anyways.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: For for us, like church was never optional.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Youth group wasn't optional and and I listen I I'm not trying to judge anyone that's out there that that's the kind of world the household that they're living in right now.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't mean about it.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: We weren't belligerent about it but there were definitely times that my teenage kids were like yeah I don't like I I just don't feel like going tonight and I was like okay well we're going anyways.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know and so there are just certain things I think there's extreme value in personal devotions and family devotions.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just gonna be transparent I really struggled to be consistent with family devotions as a parent and I would love to tell you that man we knocked it out of the park and we did it five days nights a week and but we struggled with consistency with that.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: But can I just tell you your kids don't really remember the inconsistent that you like you got on a couple of weeks streak where you didn't do it at all.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: They remember doing it.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: They remember the establishment of of that and so it's the time in God's word both individually and as a family where you're setting standards that your children just know you know I I I joked and this kind of goes to more perform or to behavior but my kids played basketball and and I remember my son saying one time there was we he was playing a game and one of the one of the other players on the other team was really showboating right you know just really showing it up and he said he said you know I know if I ever did that I think my dad would walk out on the court and drag me off the court on you know by my by my ear.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I never told him that right I never told him but but I there was just kind of an unwritten standard in our house that we don't that's not the way we that's not the way we function.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: We don't live like that we don't operate like that we don't elevate ourselves like that.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Being in leadership at Word of Life one of the things that I always told my kids is if you ever use my position to your advantage that's not going to be a good thing for you if that gets back to me.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you if if the words do you know who my dad is come out of your mouth that's not going to be a a good a good thing for you.
• 28:29
  Luis: I wonder if that comes out of my girl yeah see I've always wondered that yeah you should ask so I'm I'm I'm gonna have to ask like at church and at school like they ever say like do you know who my dad is trust me it it does you know it it occasionally can happen and but like you know it is it's a way that we operate as a family like one of our one of the things that I I feel the strongest about personally and and as a family is humility.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't ever want us to be in a place where we're elevating ourselves and and therefore it just is an unwritten standard that that that my kids know and I think fairly decently have have lived out and certainly with faults and and struggles but you know but it just goes back to the the heart issue versus the versus the behavior issue.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And our desire we made a shift here at Word of Life about 15 years ago very intentionally and in an evaluation I think we saw in our in the way we were ministering to students that maybe we were a little more behavior modification focused than we were heart transformation focused.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we just decided that that there were just certain things that really didn't matter.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay that didn't I mean and I could name some of the dumb rules we used to have but I'm not gonna do it Nate you know some of them so that's right uh you know and it's just like really I'm just glad I get to have a beard now yeah there you go just so many so many things and so I you know the same is true in our home and so there are not a lot of hills that you probably are going to want to die on as a parent.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: But there are some and there are a few and I would hope those hills would be focused on the heart and not on I'll tell you one last story and then and then I know we're probably running up close on time and if you guys have any other questions but I you know for years Nate you know this I operated as an area missionary for Word of Life and every week I was in different churches and and ministering in churches and sometimes my family would be with me and when we would arrive at a church that I was either speaking at or whatever it was I would you know I would give my kids the rundown right it would be like all right we're getting ready to go in there you behave no running in the church you know I would give them the and then if they didn't you know on the drive home it was the giving them the the smack down for what they didn't do you know what you know you guys didn't you didn't behave and I can I'll just remember I don't I actually don't even remember who I was listening to or or what they were talking about but I was driving in my car I was in actually in Winston Salem North Carolina and I was listening to this radio program and the Lord just overwhelmingly convicted me that I cared more about what other people thought of my kids than I thought of my kids' hearts.
• 31:45
  Luis: That's good.
• 31:46
  Luis: That's really good.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I went home I get emotional when I talk about this I went home that night and I set my kids down and I apologize to them.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I said I've been operating this way and I probably will fall into it again but it's not the way I want to operate I care more about who you are as a person on the inside than I care about what some random deacon at Joe Schmoe Baptist church says about you.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna do my best as a dad to care more for your heart than I do for my reputation as as a dad.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a life transformation transforming moment for me.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'll never forget it.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that was 15 years ago or close to it maybe 13 years whatever it was and it just it radically impacted the way I think about things moving forward.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I that's kind of a a story that always sticks with me when I think about boy I want to just I want my kids' hearts you know to be molded and transformed and you know Romans 12 talks about the renewing of our mind and like just all of that.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want that and as a parent I want to nurture that I want to help that.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And does it mean occasionally they do something in public that I maybe wish they wouldn't have done yeah maybe but am I gonna choose to just rip into them in that moment or am I later going to have a quiet conversation with them about it?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I rip into them in the moment then everybody around me is like oh okay like he's the boss like he's got everything under control.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: But if I'm handling that quietly later it's not about my reputation it's not about my reputation it's about my kids' hearts and so just something that I've been really passionate about with them.
• 33:31
  Nate: No that's that's awesome that's that's a great you know kind of reminder for all of us here is we're we're kind of coming coming down to the end of this but but I just wanted to to end maybe give you an opportunity to say you know how how do you like give encouragement to that parent who maybe they're where you were what you told you 15 years ago driving in your car and they just feel like they're failing either they're not seeing immediate results or they've listened to this and they've they've said you know what I that's me.
• 33:59
  Nate: My kids toe the line but they you know are just really sneaky about their sin instead of really actually being transformed.
• 34:08
  Nate: You know what encouragement would you give to the parent in in that situation?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah first of all I'd say you know it it's that's tough.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: It it is it when you watch your kids be in a place where you know their heart's not in the right place and you watch them rebel and you feel hopeless at times and you know the only thing sometimes you can do is pray.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately our kids do have ultimately make their own decisions right and and I know the principle is true but train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is older he will not depart from it.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have to remember that's wisdom literature which means it's a principle it doesn't mean it happens a hundred percent of the time and so you know and you can probably I can you can probably find things that you did wrong okay you can do that because I can definitely I look back in my parenting and even still parenting adults today I still do things wrong at times but you can look back on that or you can just move forward and you can decide to set a new pattern and a new path forward.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll just tell you I made a commitment and I I felt like and even still today that I've mostly stuck to it and that is that when it was necessary I was going to tell my kids I was sorry and I was gonna ask them to forgive me and I was gonna just be upfront with them.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't gonna try and hide it and just say well I'm the dad you know whatever I can do what I want I I just made that I made that commitment and sometimes you know that that sets a pattern that your kids learn to follow and so I've many times over the years have to apologize to my kids for my reaction or overreaction or underreaction or whatever it was.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say you know just keep praying let your kids know you're praying for them.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And depending on their stage of life and their age of life you you have to balance out how overbearing you are or are not and the older they get the less you can be and the more you have to just trust the Lord and you still put the parameters in place if they're still in your home and you still have the rules they should follow and yes you have all of that but you can't force it you can't make them love the Lord but man if you pray for them and and you let them know that you're praying for them and and you speak the truth in love to them and you are honest about your own struggles and your own failures and shortcomings because so many times we see our like we see ourselves and our kids right oh man like when my kids are amazing I just see my wife and when they're when they're doing dumb things I just see me.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's just that's just the reality of it.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: I wish that wasn't true but it's so true.
• 37:07
  Nate: Well played yeah yeah it was a good yeah we'll we'll shout out to Lynn on that one oh man well thank you so much Brian this was this was so encouraging and was helpful encouraging to us uh guys you know come coming along behind you a little further you know back in the in the process than than you are but thank you so much for making the time to to talk with us and and share and I feel like there's so much we we didn't get a chance to get into maybe we'll have to have you back on at some point to to keep keep going into this.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah you learned how long winded I am that's what you look it's it's all right it was great stuff.
• 37:41
  Nate: And if anybody listened to this, you know we we mentioned the Bible institute and if your kids are older and they're thinking about college and all of that definitely check out wordoflife.edu we'll link to it in the show notes a great place to study the word of God get ministry experience and ultimately have other people porn into your your kids so that they can have that that heart transformation.
• 38:02
  Nate: Any other places that that you might want to plug right now here at the end before we we close this out no that's great.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean uh yeah that I mean word of life we're we're here to serve the church word of life is and I would just say you know if you if you have a high school or almost college age student that is that wants to build a biblical foundation to live the rest of their life on that we would love to to see them on one of our campuses here in New York or in Florida just to to help them grow.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're doing.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to just give them the word help them grow and and send them out to to be world changers.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's awesome.
• 38:38
  Nate: Well thanks so much Brian and thank you all for listening today to Equipped for Impact.
• 38:42
  Nate: If this episode encouraged you uh please share it um with another parent who could use this resource and uh is going through this same struggle that we all do of of how to make sure we're speaking to our child's heart.
• 38:55
  Nate: And be sure to subscribe so you don't miss our next episode.
• 38:59
  Nate: But until then keep leading the next generation to stand firm in their faith and influence the world for Christ