Latest / The Game Business Show / Beyond Balatro and taking risks: Why Playstack doesn’t want a 100% hit rate

Transcript

Beyond Balatro and taking risks: Why Playstack doesn’t want a 100% hit rate · The Game Business Show

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Before Balacho launched, we knew we had something special.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody knows how special that could have been,
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: but there was such a buzz about the game, such an excitement about it.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we all had a little wildest dream forecast for how the game might do,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: and we were all low on how it did.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We are really proud of that,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: but the 15% is really important too,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: because if you only did things that were safe and only did things that were going
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: to be profitable or any things that could work, you don't take as many risks.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think indie publishing is about that.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think indie publishing and indie development is about taking risks.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's about having an idea that people just genuinely don't quite see how,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: but it's become phenomenal and captured people.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe 85% is a really nice number.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe 70% would be brilliant too.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: But 100% we're probably making some mistakes there in what we're filtering out.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hello there and welcome to The Game Business Show.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: This edition is sponsored by HelpShift, a Keyword Studios platform.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now HelpShift says that players already trust AI to help them.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that most AI in gaming wasn't built to.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: According to the company,
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: 66% of players are comfortable with AI handling their issue first as long as there's
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: a human behind it.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: 74% want it resolved without leaving the game, and 58% will quit over a bad support experience.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now studios agree as well, 80% see AI becoming the default for player support.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Their worry isn't AI, it's AI that doesn't understand games.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's the Gap Keyword Studio's AI-native platform HelpShift was built to close.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: One AI agent can handle a lot, but it can't handle everything.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: A billing query and a self-harm disclosure can't share the same tone, rules or guardrails.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Care AI lets you build specialist AI agents,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: each one of them an expert,
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: where it matters, each handing off to a human when it should.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can find out more at HelpShift.com,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: plus there are more details,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: including a video, in the newsletter attached with this show.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of this show, let's get on with it.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: This week we're talking to leading indie publisher Playstack,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: which is probably best known for its 2024 smash hit,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Palatro,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: but is also responsible for games like Mortal Shell,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Raccoine, and it's publishing the upcoming Star Trek Outposts Unknown.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now Playstack celebrated its 10th anniversary this year, and it's done so by changing owners.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was acquired by Integrated Media Company, the owner of Fandom and GameSpot.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: When it valued Playstack at 125 million pounds.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we thought this would be a great excuse to catch up with Playstack CEO Harvey Elliott.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now what you're going to get is actually two interviews because we spoke
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: to Playstack before its IMC acquisition.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So part one is going to be about Bellatro and indie publishing and the market in general.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: While we'll have a quick mini chat about its new owners after that.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Harvey.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Chris.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Nice to be here.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't caught up with you since Bellatro.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Which is actually two years ago.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Two years, three months.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Which is just upsetting, but what a seismic release.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: What a huge success.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Has that changed PlayStack?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit, yes.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, PlayStack for what we do,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: what we set out to do,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: isn't any different to when we set out 10 years ago,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: but When you have something like Ballatro happen and,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know, it's a once in a lifetime type of game.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: The reach has had the phenomenon that it is.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's just very validating and it makes everyone feel Like what we do is worth it,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: that it really matters.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we're so proud of every game that we publish.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we genuinely put our heart and soul into every title.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: But when one like that just sort of catches and catches players in
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: a way you didn't know it was going to,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: and just the reach has had,
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: the success it's had,
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: it's very validating and it makes us feel very positive and it gives
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: a little spring in our step.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't change the steps we're taking.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: We just bounce a little bit more as we take them.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Certain games give publishers a,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: unintentionally maybe like a brand or a vibe,
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: or this is the publisher,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Team17 because of worms for ages,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: or this is the publisher that does sort of quirky multiplayer games.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Devolver because of maybe Hotline Miami is the one that does it.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not true because they do lots of different types of games.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: But have you found that you're getting approached by certain developers
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: who make certain types of games?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, definitely.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's true to an extent.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think on the inside of those companies,
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that Team17 feel like the Worms company or Devolver feel like
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: the Hotline Miami company,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: because they know all the other things they do,
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: but you can't necessarily help how people will perceive you.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And for a lot of people, the only thing they will know PlayStack for is Balatro.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, the nurse for Abiotic Factor, the nurse for Recoin, the nurse for other titles.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, to that point, Recoin's a really good example.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way we would have been publishing Recoin if we hadn't published Balatro, because...
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: They saw us publish Balatro and, oh my goodness, they've got to publish this.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: They probably were inspired by Balatro.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: So Recoin probably only existed because Balatro existed.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And because Recoin existed and we'd published Balatro, they had to bring it to us.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it created, I think, Recoin in that way.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got a surprising number of those sort
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: of parlor roguelike games being pitched to us and approached,
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: and we've got a couple more coming out.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, it's sort of created a sort of a theme within the games,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: but there's still a very small proportion of what we do in that sort of category
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: of game.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And really, there only is one Balatro.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: We have other games that sort of capture some of that sentiment, but not in the same way.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it changes what we've pitched.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it changes how some people might perceive us.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: But inside, we don't feel like that's all we do.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So in 2016,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: a story that I would have definitely have edited was when PlayStack was announced
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: and it was a Gamescom, I think.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was a Gamescom edition of MCD anyway it was in.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you said at the time you wanted to fix the word publisher.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is that mission complete?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's ever complete, but I think we made some really good steps to that, yes.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: It can never be complete because there are so many publishers out there that mean,
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: that publishing means so many things to so many people.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: But what we set out to do, I think we do deliver that and I really feel very proud of it.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: What we try and do is we say every game is unique,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: every development team is unique,
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: and they will have things that they all need, but in different proportions.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Some need funding, some need directions, some need guidance.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: None of them need to be told how to make the game they know.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's the one thing, you know, we're very aware of.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: But they still need help and support and structure.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And champions,
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: and people who believe in them, and people who can find audiences for their games.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those are missions that we do accomplish for our developers and our partners.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think that's definitely working.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's always more we can do, and there's always lessons we take from every game.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Even hits like Balatro, there are things we could do differently for the next time around.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's always going to be a
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: work in progress,
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: but I do feel like we made some really positive steps, yes.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: You teased something there.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: What did you learn from, what did you learn from Balatro?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when you get a game that goes as wild as that went, I mean,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: the success of Balatro happened Actually,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: before Bellaccio launched, we knew we had something special.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody knows how special that could have been,
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: but there was such a buzz about the game, such an excitement about it.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we all had a little wildest dream forecast for how the game might do,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: and we were all low on how it did.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Every time you create an additional version of Electro...
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was developed for PC, and we managed to get it to console for launch, and that was fantastic.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we launched on PC and console.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have a mobile version ready.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I really wish we'd had a mobile version ready.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: When we knew we had something so special so quickly, the mobile version came in September.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that did brilliantly well,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: and we were very lucky to get Apple Arcade support and to be able to release as
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: a premium game on Google and Apple.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: If those had all happened at the same time together,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: perhaps that would have given, you know, different kind of moments.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some lesson in there.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Equally, we knew we'd built this sort of fervor for the game.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the game built the fervor for itself.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: We just gave it a voice and we gave it some audience and gave it some reach.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: But the game just really captivated an imagination
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: and it made people feel very smart because you have to be pretty smart
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: when you're getting really,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: really good at the combos and trying to work out the right way to put your jokers
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: and how you prepare your deck.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was those sorts of lessons,
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: the launch planning and timing the game releases and getting it out there,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: and just little things about when you submit a game on multiple platforms all
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: at once.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: We've done more complicated things since because of Balatro,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: but we didn't necessarily do them all with Balatro first time.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: a multi-skew release is complicated,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: especially with a solo dev driving the creative and driving the game.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: We can talk about Blatcher all day,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: but another very smart publisher told me you shouldn't look at the breakout hits
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: in terms of judging whether a publisher is a good one to work with.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: You should look at Where the games have been less successful.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: How did they support those games?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: After that, what did they do if a title didn't deliver a success or the breakout success?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think there is an element of truth to the fact,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Balatro is an excellent game, but in this market, you do need a bit of luck.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's absolutely right.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just judge one game to judge a publisher or to judge a team.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't judge them by one thing.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think is how
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe a different way,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: maybe the question actually is,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know, how do you measure whether you're doing the right things?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: How do you measure whether you're doing the things you set out to do?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to do this job?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, because you're definitely better at this job.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, so my answer is obviously sales is the easy answer.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: How many copies did you sell?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: What are the reviews like?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: But for us,
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's more about,
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know, my favorite metrics, I've got two really favorite metrics.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: One is, does that team want to work with us again?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: if they come back to us with their next game,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: or their next thing, or are they going to continue to work with us?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's a real testament that,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: being through,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: games development is so hard,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: and publishing a game And getting a game out there is such a difficult journey.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a long journey.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So to get to the end of that and say, let's do it again, everyone.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go again.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, that's my favorite sort of metric, the repeat attempts we have with people.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we're really lucky.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: We've got multiple developers who are working with us on their second titles.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've got one developer who's going into their third, the Color Grey team.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: We've done Case of the Golden Idol and Rise of the Golden Idol.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Six different DLC packs within it.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there's already eight SKUs in the old SKU matrix on multiple platforms.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we've signed up for their next game.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got another game coming from them in the future.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so to go around Three times as someone I think is really encouraging.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: But lots of developers we've worked with a second time.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: We have Mortal Shell developers.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: We're making Mortal Shell 2 for later this year.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: We made the Entropy Center back in 23.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: We launched Voidbreaker into Early Access last year.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's coming out.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully it's 1.0 release this year.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's with the same developer, Solodev, down in Brighton.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And those are very positive and affirming moments for me, that sort of repeat visit.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: The other success that I really like is when we write the first royalty check to a developer.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: It basically means, okay, it's making money now.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a life, here's a living that you can make from what you've put so much effort into.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Commitment into.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I like those metrics a lot.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then we say to developers when we're talking to new developers who want to sign
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: with a publisher or not sure if they want to sign with a publisher,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: but talk to someone we've worked with and find out what they say.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: if you need contact details,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: let us know, but normally you can find somebody and message them.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when developers come and join us and they say, well,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I asked a few people you'd work with and they were really positive
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: because someone's always going to say nice things or most
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: the time they'll say nice things to your face.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're talking to somebody,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: over a pint or just at a coffee or away from things,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: what would they say out of school?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're consistent with what we believe in and they say what we've done
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: for them and people like that,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: then that's a reason that developers will come and work with us.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: So those are my metrics.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you were at EA back in the day,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: but it must be quite terrifying for those decisions to be out of your hands,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: effectively.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: You could have launched a big hit,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: a successful game,
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's any of the titles that you just mentioned,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: and then you don't know if you're going to get the next one.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's a real role reversal, really, isn't it?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: From where the industry was 25 years ago.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: It is a bit, yes.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Although I've always known that, I never phrased it like that in my head.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you have a hit rate of like 85%, isn't that what I read?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite impressive.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: At the hit rate,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: what we try
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: and do with every developer is make sure they can afford
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: to make their game.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: They can afford to get it out.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if they need extra time,
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: we're there to help make sure it's got the money and the support to get it done.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: But when the game is paying a royalty to the developer,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: that means the costs have come back, it's recouped, it's now profitable.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the hit rate for us is when we're paying positive royalties out,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: the games are profitable,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: you can afford to reinvest in them or you can afford to invest in the next title.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, it's 85%.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's probably a little bit higher
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: because it just depends how many games we've just released
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: because they may not quite have fully recouped yet.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we are really proud of that.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: But the 15% is really important too because if you only did things that were safe
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: and only did things that were going to be profitable or any things that are going
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: to Could work, you don't take as many risks.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think indie publishing is about that.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think indie publishing and indie development is about taking risks.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's about having an idea that people just generally don't quite see how,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: but it's become phenomenal and captured people.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe 85% is a really nice number.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe 70% would be brilliant too.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: But 100%, we're probably making some mistakes there in what we're filtering out.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think it is this space,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about this a lot on the show,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: it is this space where the innovation's coming from,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: the new IP creation's coming from.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I know a lot of it stays in the indie space or the AA space.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Then some of it, you know, potentially, I think that's fair.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think big budgets,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Which we have some bigger budget games,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: but with really big budgets, you can't afford to take chances.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: you need that to work in order to get your money back,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: but it also forces you to make choices that are perhaps a little bit compromised.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Indie can be quite fearless.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of color gray games in case of Golden Idol,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: which has a very distinctive 2D art aesthetic and a quite traditional sort
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: of old school point and click style gameplay that Could never be a AAA experience
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: because that's a risk and a challenge that people have never taken.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's been really successful and it's led to a franchise.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just going to pick out on IP and say,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: oh, no, no, it's not about IP or about individual games.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: So then I talked about Case of the Golden Island,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Rise of the Golden Island, 60LC, so it's actually become an IP.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was fearless and I like the fact it was fearless and it could afford
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: to be fearless because it didn't have the world's greatest expectation on it.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's turned out to be brilliant and it's created a studio and created a team,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: but it could afford to take those risks.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're right, with the bigger budgeted games, those risks are harder to take.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can still have exceptional games and exceptional content.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: But there is something quite refreshing about where indie games can go
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: and what you can see with indie developers.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to me a little bit about how you think about hit rate and risk,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I guess, but what about portfolio makeup?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I talked earlier about how Balatro,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: so you might be getting pitched certain types of games
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: and therefore you've got certain games that have a certain vibe to them.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you think about sort of your portfolio?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny because similarly to the way I think about profit and revenue,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: so they are lovely things to have.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: A portfolio is lovely to have,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: but a portfolio will only build from success and revenue and profits will only build
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: from success.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the portfolio is sort of the byproduct of doing a really good job
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: of finding great games and building great relationships with developers.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you can look at your portfolio and go,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: we feel really good about the games we've got in the lineup and the titles
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: that we've got.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of category or genre,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: when I started PlayStack, so 10 years ago, my kids were quite young.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: They were 12 and 10 and 5.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no way I could have a risk of them coming into the room
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: while I'm playing a game and there'd be something really gruesome or horror based on
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: the screen.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I said, we can't do horror in case the kids come in while I'm playing that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I really don't understand American football.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no horror and there's no American football at PlayStack.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: The kids are older now.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: They play games that are definitely on the other edge of things.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so horror is fine.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Gruesome is fine.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I still don't get American football.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: But that really was the restriction on PlayStack.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: What we all have learned is we aren't a genre team.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: We do have some games which happen to resonate around certain genres.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that just happens.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: We had...
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Case of Golden, Rise of Golden.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we now have another detective-esque game that we're going to announce later this year.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: We've had Balatro,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: which has led to Recoin, and two more that we'll be announcing later this year.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so there are categories,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: but we're really a variety publisher in that our taste as players is all sorts
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: of games.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we want to be able to publish all sorts of games.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the diversity is also what makes us work so well.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: For me, the portfolio will look its best when it's varied and interesting with
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: a diversified mixture of games inside it.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that portfolio will only build if we're successful in publishing great games
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: from creative developers.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it becomes a bit of a byproduct.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: But of course we would like to have a strong catalog of games because if we have
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: a strong catalog of games then we've got a lot of developers
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: who are getting good healthy incomes from the projects they've made with us
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: which can then enable them to do more innovative and more creative titles on
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: the other side.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: I guess they're an advantage of being good at certain things.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you're launching a game like Recoin, right,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: and you've got an idea now who that audience is,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: where you can reach that audience,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: or detective genre,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know where those people are hiding,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: which Discord channels,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: which Reddit, you know, there must be some advantages to that kind of thing.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: You must be,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: every time you go into a new genre,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: you're kind of going at your comfort zone, right?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you're absolutely right.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: It is really true.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: But let's say you've got this group,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: this huge audience love Balatro, and we say, hey, would you like Recoin?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then, oh, I quite like Recoin.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a smaller group within that Balatro audience.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: I like Recoin.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we go, here's another one.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and it could be a smaller group.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Will the next game grow the group that Balatro was in?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Could it be a bigger game than Balatro?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I would argue, Bellatio is a defining game in its category.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very unlikely that we would have another game that would reach more people than that.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's great to be able to go back to those audiences and say,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: we've got more for you that you might really like.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: But the new successes will be something different.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's sort of back to indie.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I remember my time at EA, which I genuinely loved and is there for almost 10 years.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I have...
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Investments were so high,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: your games kind of had to have,
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: here's our game,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: it's a new game,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: and then we'll do number two,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: then we'll do number three,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: number four,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: and then you'd have a franchise,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: because that helps justify all the investment you put into building it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the brilliant thing about indie is you don't need that.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to put sequels into your plan.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can afford to take chances and build new audiences and take that sort
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: of bold leap With every game that you make,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: and you find a new audience,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: and there are lots of things that we can talk to the same players and say, look,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: we know you love this game,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: here's something completely different with publishing you may be interested in, but,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: and probably there's not that huge crossover either,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: so maybe I'm under,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: but the ability to find an audience and build an audience for any game is something
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: that we should get good at,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: not good at just talking to the same audience over and over again,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: because it, by definition, it would automatically shrink each time we talk to them.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you've got another one.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, right, you again.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or they get old,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: or they get married,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: or they have kids, or they don't have time to play, and then, okay,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: now what?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, well, we're still waiting for them to get, to retire and then come back.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're doing at the moment in this industry.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about this 10 years, because 10 years have placed there.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel indie publishing has changed compared with when you started?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think the indie market has thrived in that time,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: especially where You know,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Steam's been a brilliant platform and a brilliant champion for indie games.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: It has been for a long time.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I really feel like we kind of talk about AAA, and like you're saying, AAA, I think you're right.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: AAA's definition in 10 years' time will be different to the definition today.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: They've sort of grown to a size where they're such behemoths almost.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: They have to be successful in order to work, and the investments are eye-watering.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's leaving this gap behind, which has given space for indie games to thrive.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Cut through is always the challenge for every game.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: How does your game get to be the one that reaches audience?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: How does your game become the one that people have a shot at playing and understanding?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you can never engineer a complete success,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: but you can give it the very best possible start in life.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we started,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: when I started PlayStack 10 years ago,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people would say, I'll just do it myself.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'll self-publish.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'll put my own game out there.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think self-publishing is still our biggest competitor in terms
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: of what are developers choosing to do,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: whether to go with PlaySack or to publish themselves.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we've also proven The value of having a strong publishing partner
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: and allowing a developer to really focus on making the game exceptional,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: to allow a publisher to fill the gaps and do the bit that makes the marketing and
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: the reach successful.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we've proven that there's a definite role for a publisher,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: whereas I think 10 years ago, it was sort of a question.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: I need a publisher because I need some funding,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: not I need a publisher because I want to reach a bigger audience or want
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: to reach more people.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting you mentioned self-publishing as being your biggest competitor.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I really like a bipolar sort of reaction to self-publishing because on the one hand,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I spoke to the Mugenics folks earlier in the year.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love the fact that they have full control.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: They know their audience.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: They see every penny from the success of that.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: They don't feel trapped in the loop of having to go back to a publisher and ask
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: for money every time.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: That freedom, it's so attractive.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I can see it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously from an industry publication,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see Money,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: the industry, because at the moment we're not getting a lot of outside investment.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: So seeing the industry generate its own revenue and then that revenue being used
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: to fund more games and more projects is, is I think really, really important.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So when I see a really smash hit breakout success in the In the indie space,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: from a self-published game,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: where I'm like, oh,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: that's a lot of nice yachts that that team might now have,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: or fast cars, or something like that.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Which is why I love it when you get, like,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: the Phasmophobia folks launched their own publishing label,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: and then they'd put that money back into the thing.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: I do love those stories.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that just sort of appeals to me.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a question there, but you talked about self-publishing.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's a really good observation, and I agree with you, actually.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you sort of asked, you know, what's Bellatro changed about PlayStack?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: It told us we're doing the right things.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: It gave us that spring in our step.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: It has given us the ability to fund more projects and back more games and invest in more titles.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we never want to be gigantic.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: We never want to be publishing another place at that game.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's not who we are.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: We probably have eight releases this year, which is quite a lot.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's busy, it's healthy.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's a competitive year as well.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a very competitive year, for sure.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, but it enables us to do more.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I like the fact we can help, you know, just play a small
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: part in helping the industry grow.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think indie publishing goes in 10 years, Ty?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: The reverse of the question.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Ten years is a long time.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always wary of saying ten years.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: It is and isn't.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of games, a lot of game teams take two years to make a game.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: They can take 18 months to make a game.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a studio, you might make five games in ten years.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: You might.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: You might make four.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: You might make three.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: You may not all be successful.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: As a publisher, we can work quite fast.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we can work on six to eight games in a year.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So in ten years, we could publish another 60, 80 games.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a huge journey that's going to happen.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's a very small number proportionate to the number of games made.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can be quite an impactful number.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: We can learn a lot, and we do learn a lot.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really pleased that in all the time we've just been speaking just now,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: we haven't talked about AI.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't talked about,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know, those sort of disruptors in the market and what they're going to do.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: They will be disruptors.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: They will change the nature of some game development.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I really hope They only become enablers to help us make more of our games,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: and not the games themselves.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I really hope that we can continue to champion even more variety
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: of indie development and indie games.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope there are genres and categories that we never knew would exist that exist
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: in ten years' time.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure how much technology is genuinely going to change You know,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: revolutionize the way in which we interact with or play with games.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: There'll be a control interface and there'll be a screen of some sort.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, that's going to be a large part of it.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the innovation,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: whereas,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: if we go back 20 years,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: the innovation is in tech, the tech getting faster, the tech getting better.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that that makes as much a difference in indie game development
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: as it might have done before.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what we're going to see is more innovation,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: more creativity, perhaps more audience diversification.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so for publishers like ours, I think the work will increase.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think the responsibility of helping games find increasingly diverse
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: and increasingly interesting audiences and be able to cut through to them
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: an incredibly competitive landscape just for noise of things that people have to see
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: or hear.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the landscape is going to intensify.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you will,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: we'll look back and I hope feel very proud of what the foundations we've built
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: in these first 10 years of PlayStack.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see that coming in the next 10 years,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: and not just for us,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: but across the industry where there's just some genuinely innovative,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: creative, imaginative games that everyone gets to experience.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: During COVID, I worked at Gamecinder Shop.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: At the time, it was owned by ReadPop.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And ReadPop or ReadExhibitions were showing them were big, massive events companies.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's the worst time.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Every other games company were having an amazing time,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: except for this,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: this one, because the world events company makes most of its money from events.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they pivoted drastically during that period.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: They decided that digital was the future and they pivoted everything towards digital
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: because they had,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: they got in their heads that when the pandemic ended,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: everyone would want digital and they wouldn't want the events anymore.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And games events did struggle to come back.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: But the Comic Cons and all this sort of stuff they ran came back and they came up
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: with a vengeance.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: They came back bigger than they've ever been.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Turned out we quite liked being with people.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But we could have told you that beforehand,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: but there was this weird assumption that actually it's so much more convenient
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: to work from home.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it is.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: But also you are losing something.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: We do like being around each other.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Gigs are bigger than they've ever been.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Music concerts, you know, it's like I know the smaller ones have struggled.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when people talk about AI and they say,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: oh, everyone's just going to play These sort of AI experiences.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, do they want to, though?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so I support you.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I went to Comic-Con.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was wearing similar clothes to now.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was wearing a polo T-shirt and some trousers.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt really out of place because everyone was in these amazing costumes based
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: on things that I thought I could recognize but didn't want to risk.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is that from this, in case I was wrong?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you're exactly right.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: The fandom and the community and the engagement.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you're exactly right.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: People love being around people.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think AI as a...
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Communication device is fun.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it's really, I'm really glad you've asked that.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really proud of you for asking me, kind of, to kind of build.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really interesting.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a little bit light.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit vacuous.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's sort of a nice thing to try.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it isn't our interaction.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not what we should be doing.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think AI is a tool.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's an enabler.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: It enables us to do more of what we're good at.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think we will be playing those sorts of games.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Not from what I've seen so far.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's just me,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: but I kind of want,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: we had Troy Baker on the show earlier in the year,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: and he talked about how he thinks people will pivot toward,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: people want authenticity, they want, that's what they want.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: To quote a Goldfinger song,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: the singer wrote the song, you know, I want it to, I want it to feel relevant.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, going off topic,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm conscious of the time,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to ask,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: because we mentioned,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I keep using the word indie publisher a lot,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: and I actually feel like this revolution in terms of publishing is sort of,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: it seems to be happening, and I,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: we talk about Exhibition 33,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: which admittedly wasn't a huge budget game,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: but it looked amazing and it's from Kepler.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then you've got someone like Secret Mode picking up a Star Wars game, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then look at some of those games that you've been publishing, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel the indie publisher tag has become a little bit redundant?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Aren't we just talking, aren't you the publishers of today?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: The AAA publishers aren't signing games like this, are they?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're working on their big brands.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: So isn't this just what publishing is?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when I say we're an indie publisher is that we publish games by indie developers.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: But we don't necessarily mean we are indie publishers.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: We are exactly that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're a publisher.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the first thing We ever wrote for Playstack was to reinvent publishing.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Publishing reinvented, that was the...
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: It felt so clever at the time.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it was trying to find another way of being a publisher and bringing games to market.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, the definition isn't indie.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think the growing market,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: the growing opportunity is from Indie to me is small creative teams
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: that are unencumbered by sort of complicated infrastructures and complicated things
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: where you kind of have to make compromised choices to ensure you get
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: a commercial return for your project.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas indie games are more of a work of passion that have,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: somebody is creating passionately and they've created something that's unique and
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: that stands out and they want others just to love what they love.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: They don't necessarily think about it in financial terms.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: They think about it in terms of, will people see it?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Will people enjoy it?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Will people play it?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you're right.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the word indie will sort of drift away.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: We just want to see great games come together that people are playing and enjoying.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think that journey has already started.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And Expedition 33 is a fantastic game.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Blueprints was a great game.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Balatro is a great game.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many of these great games.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then they compete at the Game Awards.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: They compete at the BAFTAs.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And people aren't thinking, oh, that's an indie.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's AAA.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a game.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're games that people see and play.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And for us, we were nominated at the Game Awards for best game with Balatro.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really proud of that.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's an indie game nominated alongside AAA blockbuster titles.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And AAA,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: by what,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: this is the,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: this is why I always,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like using these terms outside of budgetary discussions because,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know, what would a AAA Bellatro look like?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Radically different to what it is now, you know?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: I really hope not.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that more money couldn't have been spent on it in terms of,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: but I think it,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's a game that does its thing as well as it possibly can.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you give that,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: give the same concept to,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, you know, the battlefield team and it won't be much different, right?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, I don't, I think they're just perhaps more focused.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're not quite, they're not fulfilled of as many things, but anyway.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe you're right.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe AAA is just about investment levels or numbers of people working on it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: We always struggle,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: well how do you call the really successful indie games, what do you call them?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can't call them double A because it's not as good as triple,
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: it's triple I, but actually in most fonts the triple I just looks like LLL.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Just great.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, games from smaller, they're just great.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pleased things are going well after 10 years at PlayStack.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just find it really interesting how the industry has changed when you go to
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: an event like Summer Game Fest or the Game Awards and you see
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: the games being announced and the logos at the end of it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just EA and Ubisoft and Konami and whatever.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're in there too,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: but it's these companies that
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, didn't exist ten years ago and they're the ones that are bringing these games
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: to market and I find that,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's happened gradually but now it's just the norm.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: the right thing.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: we're seeing a really broad group of games from so many categories and
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: so many genres and so many styles and it isn't Dominated by one group or one entity
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: or one publisher or one aesthetic or even,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: one genre,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: we're seeing such diversity in games and such a breadth of experience that perhaps,
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: 10 years ago you look to today and you think, well,
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: there's platformers,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: then there's first-person shooters, then there's multiplayer things.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: The categories are nothing like that.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're not defined by a camera position or defined by how many players are in it.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much diversity and so much change.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And when we were talking about Balaccio a little bit earlier,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: just the audience and how each new game in that category would always be
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: a little bit smaller.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: We expect categories to come and go.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Playstack is
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: The name way back when was a stack of games you want to play.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it's called PlayStack.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a stack of games you want to play.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you want to play loads of great games.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And what's in the stacks and what the stacks are categorized as will change.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: They will evolve every year or every few years.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the excitement bit.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's the bit that the kind of publishing that we do are the hits that we will have
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: in 10 years' time will be nothing like the hits we have today.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: The games will be different,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: the genres will be different,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: but they will all have been a work of passion and they'll all have You know,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: creative developers behind them who just want to share their great work
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: with somebody else.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Harvey, thank you so much for your time.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Chris.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Harvey, welcome back.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't expect to see you so soon.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, so something happened, which we were sort of expecting, but perhaps not so soon.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Does it change anything?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Does this acquisition change anything?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, the good news is you don't have to do a full re-record.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: So everything we talked about before is completely valid.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we did have this in mind.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: So as we were discussing, I knew what we thought the business would be.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So no, it doesn't change anything.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've got no earn outs or escape clauses.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here, you know, still as committed as ever to the business.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, very excited about what's coming.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Does the investor bring anything new that you weren't getting before?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they've got some experience from the games industry,
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: like proper genuine connections to people in games and having worked in games.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's always good.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: We really value that.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: They have a fresh mindset.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: we've worked really well with Truthin for the last 10 years,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: but we have grown quite a lot within that.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's good for us and healthy for us to have A slightly bigger investor group
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: that we can talk to about things and we can talk to about new directions
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: and things we'd like to do as a business.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Everything in games evolves, so we've got to keep evolving with it.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those are the things that we're most excited about and they love us for who we are.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a good thing too.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously they've got some connections to other companies in fandom mainly.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is there collaboration opportunities there or is it very separate?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's, you know, We would look at the collaborations with companies like Fandom anyway.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think it's changed a, you know, a structural thing or anything like that.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's no integrated services.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're not going to, oh, we're all now in the same office.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's going to happen.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, we were running as a games publishing business within IMC.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: IMC happened to have investments in four other verticals.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know,
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there'll be a mixer and we can talk to them,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: that'd be a good idea, but it's not an integrated system like that, no.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: The evaluation at $125 million, that's all right, isn't it?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think you need to say it the way I like to say it, it's one-eighth of a billion pounds.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's good.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: We could all do that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Does that surprise you?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Does that, if we get past my eyes, opens a few people's eyes to how big you are?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's...
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because we've been profitable, we're consistently profitable.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's a healthy multiple, but it's not outside of the realms of normality.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: You've got some good benchmarks there.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a surprise when somebody actually says it out loud and you go,
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: oh, that's really quite exciting.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: But we're not really here for the money.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think anyone in games is here for the money, really.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: That might be a nice thing that happens.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: We love games, we love publishing, and we love getting involved in titles.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it is a nice benchmark.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we passed 10 years and we talked about this before.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: 10 years in the industries for a company is a fantastic milestone.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: We now know 10 years and 125 million pounds, and those are great benchmarks.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, where can we go next?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's the big question.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: So to recap, nothing changes at all.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there might be some opportunities.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know,
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: put it very simply,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: we had a business plan that we signed off with Trufin at the end of last year,
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: and that's the exact same business plan we've adopted with IMC,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: our new ownership structure.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So our job is to deliver the exact same number of games The exact same revenue opportunities.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: What it will change is if we have bigger appetites for some things in the future,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: we've got a little bit more headroom or a lot more headroom
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: with titles we might want to get behind and how we want to support games.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: But we didn't really test limits of that with Truefin.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: We've had really great support from them,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: but we do know we're getting close to being a majority,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: quite a significant majority share of their business.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: For us, having more headroom is very useful and very important,
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: but we're not changing the standards.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: the game selection process that we use,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: the way the team,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: have to be passionate and get behind the game,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: the forecasting methodology we use, all of those things are still true.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe some bigger games in your future.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but we've got to make sure the numbers make sense for everyone.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: The developers have to become profitable on the back of their game successes.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: If we're going to get involved,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: it's because we believe we can help them create something very successful
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: and profitable.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we can't just spend this extortionate amount of money in the game that needs
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: to come out before anyone's earning royalties and income.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we only earn from the success when the developer's earning from the success.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: We might have appetite for some bigger games,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: but only if the numbers stack up and if it makes sense.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some growth opportunities for us as a business,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: where we think we could do more and that was already part of our business plan,
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: but the constraint is on us and our ambition,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: not on you know how much money's in the bank
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: and what are we thinking I'm always going to make sure we're profitable with
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: a great growth plan but sometimes you're funding projects
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: for you know two three years out so you want to make sure you've got the cash flow
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: for that for sure so you're not getting ahead
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: of your skis that's good no you can't
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: not your star thank you harvey brilliant
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: thanks chris congratulations as well thank you That's it for today's episode of
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: The Game Business Show.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back with more news,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: with more analysis, insight and interviews in the days and weeks ahead.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Please do make sure to put your email address into our website at thegamebusiness.com.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: That means every time we put something out,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: every podcast, every article, you'll be the first to know.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: But until that time, that's it from us today.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for tuning in.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: The company, Games Otherwise, inspires you.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: You get different things from different people.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: But for me,
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: when Apple put something together and when they launched their best products,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: like their phone or the tablet or the TV, they just did it exceptionally well.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, that has become a mantra for us is quality.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to put Apple.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: What one indie game do you wish you'd published?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what happened then when you asked that is my brain went,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: oh, this one, this one, this one.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Expedition 33, really good.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to have published that.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Blueprints, actually, really love a game, would have loved to have published.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Silksong, would have loved to publish it.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hollow Knight, I mean,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: just any what is your favorite movie I've got three okay okay 1989 batman
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: although I did watch it the other night and it hasn't aged as well as I remember it
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: but it was the first reinvention of superheroes uh that was was very very high
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: for me I loved heat there was something about the way that was shot the gunfights
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: the the character development and groundhog day which is the sort of striving
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: for this perfect day That isn't actually about striving for the perfect day.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's just about reliving those same moments and making little choices.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: So any of those I'd happily watch.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously your career goes back to the nineties of Acclaim and the early noughties
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: with the electronic arts.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you could bring back one classic franchise from that period of time,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't have to be from Acclaim or EA, what would you bring back?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: There are two I really loved that when I first joined EA I was going to get involved
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: with,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: which was Syndicate that Bullfrog had made and Divisional Theme Park Games,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: although the Two Point team do a phenomenal job with reinventing that genre.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: So probably Syndicate.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was one that deserves to be retold and was actually a really clever,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: really innovative game that is just as relevant today in what it told as a narrative
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: as it was back then.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what one advice would you give to a new independent developer looking
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: to get their game to market?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think every developer Needs to know they shouldn't have to do it alone.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: What's brilliant about games and brilliant about the industry is
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: the industry supports the industry.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: People will help.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: People want to share.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: GDC is a great example.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: People sharing their knowledge with people to tell them what they've done
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: and why it's phenomenal.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're starting out, just don't be afraid to ask for advice and take advice.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: But equally,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: don't be afraid to listen to the advice and go your own way
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: and make your own choices.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Listen in the first place and make your own opinions.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: But there's so much free knowledge that the industry is so proud to share.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: You've just got to listen.