Latest / NDV Podcast: Neurodiverse Voices Connect / Unlocking Neurodiversity: Joanna’s Journey in Education and Advocacy

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Unlocking Neurodiversity: Joanna’s Journey in Education and Advocacy · NDV Podcast: Neurodiverse Voices Connect

0:17
Welcome to season 5 of the Neuro Diverse Voices Podcast, the
0:22
podcast that gives a voice to the neuro divergent community.
0:27
My name is Andrea Costa and I am your host.
0:32
I am also the mom to a beautiful 9 year old autistic daughter and
0:36
she is my world. At the age of 42, I was recently
0:41
diagnosed with ADHD and through my lived experience I've
0:45
developed a deep passion for all things neuro diversity.
0:51
My daughter gave me purpose. My neurodivergence keeps the
0:55
passion alive. By sharing my journey, I hope to
0:59
help others feeling seen, understood, and less alone.
1:04
Through conversations with guests from a wide range of
1:08
backgrounds and perspectives, my aim is to challenge assumptions,
1:12
spark curiosity and enlighten all kinds of minds.
1:17
This is and brings another incredible line up of guests.
1:21
From comedians and writers to alternative provision leads,
1:25
therapists, parent advocates and researchers from the University
1:29
of Oxford, every guest has an inspiring journey and a powerful
1:33
story to share. This is a space for honesty,
1:36
connection and celebration where difference is not just accepted
1:41
but valued. Hi everyone, Welcome to another
2:04
episode of Season 5 of the Neuro Diverse Voices podcast.
2:08
And today I have the privilege of interviewing the founder and
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CEO of Sensational Tutors who also has lived experience of
2:17
ADHD. Welcome to the Neuro Diverse
2:20
Voices podcast, Joanna Gibbs. Thank you very much.
2:23
Thanks for having me. You're very welcome.
2:25
How are you? I'm good, I'm good.
2:28
I'm a bit of an in in an interesting place actually.
2:32
Today was the school's white, the school's white paper was
2:36
published. So I've been watching a lot of
2:39
the news, keeping in touch with what really what's happening.
2:41
WhatsApp messages have been buzzing all over the place, so
2:45
yeah, there's the significant changes ahead.
2:48
Yeah, definitely. I was actually going to ask you
2:50
about this about this, because we we do have our interview
2:54
scheduled for for a while and we've prepared the interview.
2:57
But yeah, it's going to be good to know.
2:59
What are your thoughts? I also had a brief look at the
3:02
news. So yeah, let's see.
3:06
OK, so before we start talking about hot topics, can you start
3:11
by introducing yourself and tell us a bit about how what you do
3:17
at Sensational Tutors? Sure.
3:19
So I established the company nine years ago.
3:23
I'm a qualified teacher. I fell into education
3:26
essentially. I wanted to become a speech and
3:27
language therapist quite a few years ago, and my first degree
3:30
is in linguistics and phonetics. After that, I want, as I say, I
3:36
worked for the NHS with the understanding that I wanted
3:39
desperately to support children with their speech and
3:41
communication difficulties. So following my experience
3:45
working for the NHS, I moved to India.
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The reason why I moved to India was because I absolutely loved
3:54
helping children and that came from my experience working as a
3:58
community behaviour support specialist for the NHS.
4:03
But I was working within schools, but I was also
4:05
supporting occupational therapists and the speech
4:09
language therapists. And my role there was to make
4:11
sure the strategies were consistent between schools and
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the family home. You know, were they using
4:16
Makaton, were they using PEX? How were the OT strategies being
4:20
utilised in the home as opposed to in the school?
4:25
Very often the strategies weren't weren't being utilised
4:29
in both places. So my role in that was to make
4:32
sure that everybody's working together in that collaboration
4:36
and also making sure that there was a really good, strong team
4:39
around that young person because obviously, you know, education
4:42
and education, but there's lots of things that do support a
4:46
young person being able to access education.
4:48
And that very often is the communication and the sensory
4:51
side of things as well. Yeah.
4:53
So I moved to India. I worked in a in a slum school
4:56
in northern India because I wanted to save the world at the
4:58
age of 2021. I came back after six months
5:04
quite upset that I hadn't resolved my mission and my
5:08
intention. And at that point I was applying
5:12
for jobs and I worked for the American School in London, which
5:17
is an absolutely amazing school. And the reason why I was picked
5:20
up there was really for my vision and my passion and my
5:23
drive to support, to support children.
5:26
And essentially that came through from my experience
5:28
working in the slum schools in India.
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I loved the school so much and I loved the international side of
5:36
things. And I attended an international
5:39
job fair because I was interested in, at that point, I
5:44
was interested in travelling and very, very much a type of person
5:48
that wants to explore and wants to understand the world.
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And my mum at that point said, you know, become a teacher, you
5:55
can travel. And I was like, oh, OK, I'm not
5:56
a qualified teacher, but I'll attend this job fair, this yeah,
6:00
this school's job fair. See what happens.
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And as luck had it, there was an individual there who was
6:06
developing an opening school in South Korea.
6:09
At that point, qualifications weren't needed because he is
6:14
incredibly visionary in his approach and he needed people
6:17
who were equally visionary regardless of a qualification.
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And you know that that tip box, whether that person really truly
6:24
understood how young people can work and why different
6:29
strategies should be utilised for different young people and
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gaining an A true understanding of that.
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So I was successful at that interview and without a contract
6:40
at all, with no guarantee of anything, I ended up working in
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South Korea. So I was a founding member of an
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International School in South Korea which was within the
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International Baccalaureate system or, OR curriculum, which
6:54
is very child focused and very much based on topics.
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So within a year you'd have 3 or 4 topics and then you'd have to
7:01
integrate all of the academics within those topics.
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So it was very, very creative. And as a creative person myself,
7:07
I absolutely loved that. So yeah.
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So the first year was a founding member of of the school and then
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I was the teacher there. And then very quickly after
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that, I became the head of the learning support team.
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This was a brand new team because it was a brand new
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school and we hadn't needed that role in the 1st place.
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That was the and I was in that role alongside doing my master's
7:35
degree in in inclusion. So as I say, my first degree was
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in speech and language therapy. What?
7:41
Sorry, my first degree was in phonetics and linguistics and
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then I did my master's degree in inclusion.
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Not being a qualified teacher at this point, but I wanted to know
7:55
that I could have a chance to come back to England and
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actually be a qualified teacher. But after, after South Korea, I
8:02
worked in Australia. Basically, I fell fell in love
8:06
with an Australian guy, moved to Australia with him, fell out of
8:09
love with the Australian guy, moved to Indonesia, the
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Netherlands International School as a bit of a stopgap after
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living in Australia. And then I came back to England
8:23
and wondered what on earth the curriculum was, you know, the
8:26
English education system was doing here.
8:29
That was 11 years ago. You know, even hearing the news
8:34
today, it's just amazing the challenges that the education
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system has in the UKI say that incredibly lightly.
8:43
And when I first established the business, which was nine years
8:46
ago, I had the vision, which I still hold very strongly, that
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every young person is entitled to the best possible support.
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But that comes from a strong understanding of every, every
9:00
single young person in terms of their hobbies, their interests,
9:03
their drive, their motivation, their, you know, abilities, of
9:07
course. But we need to be thinking about
9:09
engaging that with that young person on their level and really
9:13
truly understanding them. And, and obviously that will
9:16
create the trust and that relationship.
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And without the trust, the trust and relationship, you can't
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teach them. And I also think that even if
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you do that teacher, that teacher doesn't have that sense
9:30
of fulfilment. You know, we become teachers to
9:32
be able to teach. And I think if you're going in
9:35
this for any other reason other than really wanting to
9:38
understand young people, then you're not in the right
9:40
profession. Obviously the, you know, the
9:43
curriculum and the system at the moment doesn't give teachers
9:46
capacity because of the red tape to truly work with children on
9:51
on that, on that one to one basis.
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And I realised that quite quickly then I worked as a as a
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sorry, as a tutor myself on on that one to one basis really
10:03
gained that value of being able to help that child.
10:09
And then hoped that there'd be other tutors out there that
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shared my vision always around special needs around send as
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that's, you know, where I started with this.
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From my experience, you know, even before university, I've
10:23
been raised around, raised with lots of disability, mental and
10:29
physical disability in my family.
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And that's really want, what I wanted to do is to find other
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qualified teachers who shared my passion and drive to, to
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understand and really unpick these amazing young people and,
10:43
and their potential and to get them where they could possibly
10:46
get to. Yeah, wow, that's fantastic.
10:49
I love all the international experience you you have because
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that's so valuable. I think you just expand your
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horizon so much. When?
10:58
When? Yeah, when you have that
11:00
possibility. So yeah, that's very inspiring
11:04
to hear. So you are ADHD.
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What did receiving that diagnosis mean for you
11:13
personally, and how is that understanding shaped the way you
11:18
see yourself today? It's a bit of a weird one, I
11:21
have to say, because I don't tell too many people about the
11:25
diagnosis. And as much as I'm saying to
11:28
parents and I, I, I do believe in it.
11:31
I, you know, as much as I'm saying to parents, there is an
11:34
amazing skill set here. We just need to, you know,
11:37
support the young person and understand them and, you know,
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and to create an environment for them to absolutely flourish.
11:44
What I do still feel internally is the sense of stigma.
11:49
You know, there's an absolute massive boom of, of women being
11:54
late diagnosed ADHD. And I'm one of those, you know,
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I'm a statistic now. I don't want to be a.
12:01
Statistic. Yeah, and I and I feel judged.
12:05
So when I told my parents they had to be part of the, the
12:09
assessment, you know, there was lots of pushback, lots of guilt
12:12
for my, for my dad, especially that they had caused the ADHD.
12:18
But yeah, I I don't talk about it and I feel like that's a
12:26
conflict internally because I'm also the person that's wants
12:31
parents to recognise how incredible it is as well as a
12:36
diagnosis. Yeah, it's, that's the conflict
12:39
between the, you know, the struggle and what some people
12:42
would say. The superpower, isn't it?
12:44
Because I'm sure that everything that you do comes from being
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ADHD as well. Yeah.
12:51
What I would say, though, is it has helped my relationship with
12:56
my husband. He lets things go as is, in his
13:01
own words. He lets things go a little
13:03
easier and kind of blames the ADHD as opposed to blames the
13:07
Joanna. Good for him, he's a great guy.
13:11
It can. Be it can be helpful.
13:14
Yeah. OK, So going back to to your
13:17
professional experience, so you've been supporting children
13:20
with special educational needs and disabilities for a long
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time. How has the understanding of
13:26
neurodiversity changed for you during that time?
13:30
So I feel that I truly understand and I can see it from
13:39
having established the company so many years ago.
13:41
The impact of having that one to one support is absolutely
13:45
profound. I say that though obviously that
13:48
tutor has to be the right match, you know, and in terms of
13:51
relationship and rapport etcetera, etcetera.
13:53
But I think when you find that person, it the, the, the
13:59
opportunities for that young person, can it really truly be
14:04
uncovered? And I, you know, I, I do reflect
14:06
on my own school life and I, I didn't like school at all, but I
14:10
do remember my English teacher, you know, and I feel like this
14:14
is one thing that a lot of parents say to me, that they do
14:17
remember that one teacher that really supported them.
14:20
And I think what we do fantastically well is exactly
14:24
that matching process. You really, truly understand the
14:26
families and the young person. Yes, we've got, you know, some
14:30
paperwork that we all need to fill in, but but I think what
14:33
the end game is, is the impact of that relationship and it is
14:40
it it's, you know, obviously we do provide online sessions, but
14:44
it's in person as well. It's a profound relationship
14:47
that if you get it right, it can be absolutely life changing.
14:51
And we've also got to consider the fact that these children by
14:55
their diagnosis, lots have suffered trauma from, from the
14:59
school placement that they may well have been and they may not
15:02
be able to access school anymore.
15:05
And in that way, the relationship that these tutors
15:09
have created, breaking down the, you know, the resistance towards
15:14
anybody attend or being in, in the bedroom or even in their,
15:19
their house is, is phenomenal. And being able to hopefully over
15:23
time educate them again. Yeah.
15:26
It's, that's, it's, it's kind of a special relationship that
15:30
needs to to exist, isn't it? Yeah, and what's really lovely
15:35
from the conversations I've had from the parents is because
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we're very, very different. It's not a case of, you know,
15:44
oh, my teachers, my tutor's coming here to do my maths
15:47
homework. It's very, very much aligned
15:51
with I've got somebody special who's coming to who's taking the
15:56
time to truly understand me and they take it as a bit of a, a
16:00
reward, like something really, really positive from that
16:05
individual. So yeah, as I say, the results
16:09
are just amazing. Every young person needs
16:12
something different and I think that's really exciting as well
16:15
to really, truly, truly understand that young, young
16:17
person's journey. And we can go in all sorts of
16:20
tangents with that young person as well.
16:22
And I think that's really important if it, you know, we
16:26
do, we will always prioritise developing that relationship.
16:29
But after that relationship's been established because we are
16:33
so specialist and you know, we're qualified teachers, but
16:36
we're specialist as well. We can then support with the
16:39
speech and language therapy side of things or the OT or integrate
16:43
that into the lessons or go on tangents about integrating
16:46
special interests, you know, into into their lessons.
16:50
And I think that really truly helps to engage a young person
16:55
and then brings them back to developing a love of learning,
16:58
which I think is really what we want to do.
17:01
Yeah, definitely. And what, what sort of lessons
17:05
do you provide just for the audience?
17:07
You know, there might be, since you provide online sessions,
17:11
there might be people interested in reaching out to you.
17:14
I guess it's going to be completely different.
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It's going to be tailored to each young person.
17:18
But yeah, what would be a typical?
17:20
Day, definitely. I would always say that we are
17:24
not not subject specialists. We're special needs specialists,
17:27
So if a family or a parent comes to us and says, you know, I'm
17:31
looking for a maths tutor, we are not the right company.
17:35
If that person comes to us and says, you know, my child is
17:39
autistic and they're struggling with maths, great.
17:42
That's what we do because we, we utilize the diagnosis to inform
17:48
how we can support with the the subject, if subject is is part
17:52
of what they're looking for. So we truly understand what the
17:56
autism traits look for look like for that young person because
18:00
obviously every young person is different and the diagnosis
18:03
aside. So we understand what strategies
18:06
work for that young person. And then we integrate the maths
18:10
or the curriculum or the subjects within an understanding
18:13
of what works as opposed to here is the math maths curriculum,
18:18
here are your worksheets, which is boring, but you know, and
18:21
anybody can do that. Yeah, definitely.
18:24
No, that sounds, that sounds brilliant.
18:27
OK. So in terms of systems and and
18:29
challenges, so from your perspective where do does well
18:34
we kind of touched based on this, but where does the current
18:37
education system support children well and where does
18:42
does it fall short or or fail children?
18:44
So my biggest issue is the four thing and it is in some cases it
18:52
is physically forcing, forcing children to attend a school if
18:57
the school is not the right place for them.
18:59
You know, I speak to parents all the time and very close friend
19:04
slash parent of client of ours was saying that before before
19:11
learning about sensational tutors and and our provision
19:13
being an option. She was literally dragging her
19:17
child into the classroom or into into the school.
19:21
But before that, the the boy would sit in sit in the in the
19:27
car alongside the mum and attempt to jump out the car.
19:30
So he was risking his own life because but the mum was
19:34
obviously being forced for him to attend school because she
19:37
wanted to avoid the fines, you know, and it's, it all comes
19:41
back to money again. My view, my very, very strong
19:44
view is if you know, my strong view is not a school is not the
19:51
right place for every single young person.
19:53
And we do need to recognise that.
19:57
And also there are stories in the have been in the press and
20:00
there's one poignant 1A while ago where again, there's a mum
20:04
who is trying to avoid being fined.
20:06
She didn't know how significant the mental health needs of her
20:09
son were. Likely masking or not, it was
20:14
obviously not not obvious. And she was pushing him to
20:17
attend school so badly that he committed suicide and that is
20:23
the outcome. So, and even today, yeah, I just
20:30
had a few, literally just had a few meetings about the white
20:32
paper. But even today they're talking
20:34
about specialist provision, which sounds great, but within
20:39
that they are talking about settings.
20:41
Now these settings are going to obviously potentially mimic
20:45
schools, but we've got to recognise that these settings,
20:48
whatever they are, these these young people, these fantastic
20:51
young people have been so traumatised by the system, by a
20:55
setting, be at school or whatever the setting looks like,
20:57
the bricks and mortar of a place.
20:59
They can't step outside their bedroom lightly.
21:02
They can't come out from under their duvet.
21:04
They, you know, how is this going to be possible?
21:06
And again, we're going back to that same, the same structure of
21:10
forcing young people to do X. And I think we need to be
21:14
listening to the young people, the young people know what they
21:16
want. You know, on the flip side,
21:19
EHEPS, they are still going to stand, you know, for the most
21:23
complex young people. But EHEPS and local governments
21:26
and local authorities have always talked about listening to
21:29
the child's voice. Well, I think we need to be
21:32
doing that a little bit more, to be honest, because we're truly
21:36
not. Yeah, it's, it feels like
21:40
nothing is really ideal. And precisely for that reason,
21:45
because neither the children and young people and the parents
21:49
seem to be listened to. You know what?
21:52
Absolutely. At the end of the day, it's a.
21:54
Yeah. It's it's a start, right?
21:59
Yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll see.
22:02
We'll see how. Yeah, I just think what I, what
22:07
I feel really angry about is anybody other than the parent
22:12
and the child themselves having control over that young person's
22:16
life. And, you know, the system that's
22:19
been created now is, you know, it's just horrible because we
22:24
are in the hands of of the government and local authorities
22:28
and that's based on budget and cost.
22:31
And even when it comes to home schooling, you know, there's
22:35
there's a push towards the two more constrained around home
22:40
schooling and the local authorities need to be
22:43
overseeing the parents who are homeschooling their children.
22:46
So again, we're going back to that, you know, lack of control.
22:50
And if a parent is supporting a young person so that they don't
22:55
commit suicide, and that doesn't look good in terms of the
22:58
homeschooling curriculum, what choice does that parent have?
23:03
Yeah, Yeah. So I guess that's is attendance
23:07
one of the major topics that parents come to you with or is
23:11
are there any other? Challenges, yeah.
23:15
For us it's trauma and PDA. So pathological demand
23:18
avoidance, avoidance, although PDA as an acronym is being
23:24
discussed at the moment, which is, which is quite exciting for
23:28
it to be more, more positive. And they're talking about it
23:32
being persistent drive for autonomy, which I think is
23:37
great. You know, these young people
23:39
whose voices want to be heard. Thank you very much.
23:43
Which is wonderful. Yeah.
23:45
So PDA linked with the trauma, linked with autism is really
23:51
what we specialized in, as well as the more complex needs.
23:55
So PMLD, so obviously wheelchair users, non non verbal, non non
24:01
speaking as it now is the challenging behaviour.
24:09
And yeah, those young people that really, truly can't access
24:12
education from being burnt by the system.
24:16
Yeah, and you're a visionary, So how do you think professionals
24:22
can create inclusive and safe learning environments rather
24:26
than just being tick box? Yeah, I think we need to
24:32
communicate. I think everything's to do with
24:35
communication, communication and trust.
24:38
And I think that when we're creating these things, they're
24:42
called EOTAS packages. Now, these are packages for
24:44
young people who normally have experienced so much trauma they
24:49
can't attend school. It's called education.
24:52
Other than at school, Eotas or Eotis or EOTIS, It's it's all
24:56
the same sort of thing. It's either that they can't
24:59
attend school normally because of trauma or there isn't a
25:01
school place available. Normally it's the first one, but
25:06
there's a lot of collaboration involved in that.
25:08
And I think we need to respect all the professionals that are
25:11
in place, professionals, but even stronger than that, we need
25:15
to be listening to the parents for their input because I feel
25:19
like we absolutely undermine the the value and the impact that
25:23
parents can have positively on their child's education and and
25:27
well-being. I remember being in the
25:30
classroom and there are teachers out there that choose whether
25:35
it's a choice or maybe they train not been trained not to,
25:37
or maybe that's just their approach, but choose not to
25:41
listen to parents and value parents opinions.
25:43
And I just think that they're missing a trick there.
25:47
It's so rewarding to understand the family and being able to
25:51
say, hey, you know, your child had a better day today.
25:54
This is what's what's happened. And for their everybody to be
25:58
working on on the same level. So, yeah, I think it's we need
26:03
to truly understand the bigger picture, but wants to understand
26:08
with that really genuine approach and to truly listen to
26:13
the child, to value their opinions and for teachers to
26:17
ultimately get really excited about working and supporting
26:21
these children. And for the children not to feel
26:23
like they're, you know, just a tick box.
26:25
We need we need the teachers to feel the sense of reward as to
26:29
the reason why they became teachers.
26:31
And I think that is only established once we have the
26:34
capacity. Again, let's blame the system,
26:37
but once we have the capacity to get down to that young person's
26:40
level and truly understand them. Yeah, absolutely.
26:43
Absolutely. So you mentioned you know that
26:48
there is some kind of self judgement and stigma around your
26:51
ADHD, but I'm pretty sure you have plenty of strength and I'm
26:56
curious to know what strengths do you actually often see in
27:00
neural divergent children and young people that are normally
27:03
overlooked or misunderstood? Yeah, absolutely.
27:07
For me personally, it's a sense of hyper focus that if I put my
27:12
mind something I will put my mind to it negatively, let's
27:18
say, is that if I'm not engaged, you know, my husband talking to
27:23
us about that is an example. You know, he likes history and
27:26
you know, wars and World War One and World War 2 and tries to
27:29
involve me in all these conversations and TV programmes.
27:31
I have absolutely no interest in them.
27:35
But I think if, if, for example, using that, that idea, if
27:42
history was taught differently, for example, we're working with
27:47
some individual companies who are using VR.
27:51
So it's really interactive and, and you can go down to the
27:53
trenches and talk to the soldier about his, you know, the impact
27:57
and, and of the war. That sort of stuff I think
28:00
should be utilised in the classroom to really engage the
28:04
ADHD brain, which will obviously may well go on a tangent, but I
28:08
think if you can really engage that young person, it's really,
28:12
really, really exciting. And hopefully as a teacher as
28:14
well, you'd be excited about the impact you can make for that
28:17
child. Yeah, I totally relate with you.
28:20
History was always one of my really bad marks in school
28:24
because I just, yeah, I was too bored to to want to learn about
28:28
it. Because as you say, you just,
28:30
you read and you memorise and you have to memorize dates and
28:34
all of that. So it can be quite, quite
28:36
boring. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
28:40
And meaningless if you know if you can't apply that knowledge.
28:43
How do you apply it later in life, exactly?
28:46
Yeah, definitely. And how do you help children and
28:52
young people build their confidence and a positive sense
28:55
of self around their neural divergent?
28:59
I think it's very much about exploring that young person's
29:02
strength together, understanding where their mindset is and and
29:06
you're building strategies together, but also saying I
29:10
think what's really important is, and I did this in in the
29:13
classroom, it's recognizing that people do make mistakes.
29:16
So when I was in the classroom, I introduced something called
29:19
Hooray mistakes and it was for the children that were
29:22
comfortable doing it, but we would literally celebrate
29:26
mistakes and shout, how are your mistakes?
29:28
And, and I was the first person to do that, but also of myself
29:32
as well. If I was to make a mistake or
29:33
sometimes I would make a mistake on purpose and celebrate it or,
29:38
you know, or the kids would laugh and ha, you know, that's
29:41
kind that kind of dialogue. But I think it's just allowing
29:48
children to recognise that life is a journey every single point
29:53
as adults as well, we're always, we're always learning, we're
29:56
always learning from each other. And it's allowing the space and
30:00
capacity to be OK with that and it and it should be exciting and
30:07
nobody, nobody is perfect. I think it's really about being
30:11
curious around the people that you are around as well.
30:16
One of the schools I unfortunately worked for,
30:19
there's a change of leadership and they turned it into much
30:24
more of a, you know, an, an 11 plus kind of school, which is
30:28
all about grades. And unfortunately I heard this
30:31
from the parents, the, the, the children with diagnosis or the
30:36
children in the wheelchairs, et cetera, or had additional needs.
30:39
They, the parents and the children were bullied out of the
30:42
class. And I just think that's such a
30:44
missed, it's a missed opportunity for everybody
30:48
because the, you know, the, the children who were in the
30:50
classroom, to be able to have those different conversations
30:54
with a different young person is so powerful.
30:57
And to recognise that not everybody is the same.
31:00
And there's so much value in understanding somebody else
31:04
who's, you know, different. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
31:08
And, you know, we all make mistakes at some point, you
31:13
know, but maybe every day we we, we make mistakes.
31:16
And it's, it's about normalizing making mistakes that yeah, that
31:22
we all do it. And I think that's a great idea.
31:24
I love what you've done. Yeah, What is interesting
31:29
because I created that strategy even when I wasn't a qualified
31:33
teacher. Yeah, these are just things that
31:35
I created as I've gone along. You know, I will never give a
31:38
child a sticker. Well done.
31:40
You know, here's a sticker. That whole strategy drives me
31:43
bonkers. It has to be about internal
31:46
rewards as opposed to giving these external reward systems,
31:50
you know, and in terms of giving feedback as well, saying well
31:54
done, you know, not well done full stop, but well done.
31:57
I can see that you have added a capital letter to the beginning
32:00
of your sentence. That means this and really
32:02
giving them context, as opposed to well done which is completely
32:05
meaningless. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
32:09
OK. So there's a lot of, you know,
32:11
going back to your past, to the work you've done internationally
32:13
and, and, and now there's a lot of focus in connection and
32:17
community, which is something you you really believe and, and
32:21
the share the shared experience. So why is that so important in
32:26
neuro diversity spaces? I think it's validating to have
32:32
those conversations with other people.
32:36
And I feel because of the stigma, I've always thought I
32:39
was a bit different. I know I'm a bit different.
32:41
I mean, everybody's different obviously.
32:44
And being able to have that reassurance from other people
32:47
that they have the same opinion of you and you aren't the crazy
32:51
1. You know, I've, I've gained a
32:53
lot of confidence just from opening up and saying, look, you
32:56
know, I feel really anxious right now.
32:58
What do you think? Or can you help me with this?
33:00
And I think going back to people who you are familiar with in
33:05
terms of how their brains versus how your own brain works, then
33:09
you can just get a lot of reassurance.
33:12
And especially when it comes to anxiety, because as we know, you
33:15
know, anxiety very much underlines ADHD and taking
33:20
ownership of that. And I, you know, there's
33:25
somebody who I know very closely is absolutely brilliant when
33:30
talking about her level of anxiety.
33:31
And I just find that so empowering and so, so wonderful
33:35
of her to be able to do that. And I will be able to support
33:39
her. And I think it I think it is
33:42
about ownership and not being fearful of your emotions and
33:46
asking for help. Yeah.
33:49
And I, I, I relate, you know, in both senses, as as a parent and
33:54
as being neuro divergent myself. It's very important to have
33:57
those people around you and who you can open up to, you know,
34:02
frankly and recognise your feelings and and your emotions.
34:07
So I totally agree. Yeah, one second.
34:14
Sorry I got a bit lost now. OK.
34:18
So in terms of advice and reflection, what would you say
34:22
to a child or a young person who feels different or misunderstood
34:27
right now? I'll probably ask them why they
34:31
feel misunderstood. First of all, you know, where
34:34
does that come from? Where is the evidence of that?
34:37
Is it that So I will use an example that relates back to the
34:41
school system because that's, you know, I'm a teacher and I
34:44
always, always will always default to that.
34:46
But, you know, is it the fact that you feel misunderstood by
34:50
by a teacher? Or is it that, you know, one of
34:55
my, one of my big issues, and I've got quite a few issues when
34:58
it comes to the education system is, is around pen licences and
35:01
that teachers will give pens to young people once they can
35:06
demonstrate that they have perfect handwriting with using a
35:09
pencil. So is it the fact that, you
35:12
know, for example, there's a young person who doesn't have
35:15
perfect handwriting, Does that child feel misunderstood by that
35:20
teacher? Because actually there's a lot
35:22
of other things going on for that child that, you know, they
35:26
can't physically hold the pencil in in the right way.
35:28
Is there something else going on?
35:30
And that's why that teacher is reacting that way.
35:36
So yeah, I'd, I'd ask them to reflect on where the evidence
35:39
is, whether it is from a peer or a friend that has mentioned
35:44
something. And then I'd also ask them how
35:49
would they like to be listened to and spoken to and giving the
35:53
young person ownership from with with that regard that if they
35:59
are feeling misunderstood or different, then understand why
36:03
and understand how they would like to communicate going
36:07
forwards or would like the people around them to
36:10
communicate to them going going forwards so that they can feel
36:15
understood. Yeah, it's, it all goes back to
36:19
curiosity, isn't it? Supports through curiosity.
36:22
If you ask the right questions, then you you will be able to, to
36:27
support. And I guess it would be the same
36:29
advice to parents. Any advice for those who are
36:33
just beginning their their neurodiversity journey?
36:36
Yeah, I think, I think the point really is, is you're not going
36:43
to have all the answers ever. And I think it's, you know, I'm
36:48
very active on a lot of these WhatsApp groups with, with some
36:51
of our parents as well. And I've gained a lot personally
36:55
from the WhatsApp groups as a, as a parent myself with a little
36:59
boy now. And it's so much about asking
37:02
for help. And as much as the parents are
37:05
asking each other for help, I'm also asking those parents for
37:09
help about, you know, situations around trauma.
37:14
I unfortunately had a bit of a negative experience with my son
37:18
attending a nursery. I mean, he's only 10 months.
37:20
And I think this is where part of the issue starts is that I
37:25
was not happy with two of the nurseries he attended.
37:27
I could see the impact on him even though he was very young.
37:30
And I'd asked the parents what they would do in that situation.
37:36
And a lot of the parents came forward and said they one of
37:41
their regrets, unfortunately, is they hadn't listened to their
37:44
gut when they realised that the school place or setting was not,
37:49
was not the right place for their, for their child.
37:51
And at that point I was like, right, OK, I need to listen to
37:54
my gut as well. My 10 month old can't speak,
37:57
obviously, but I need to be listening to my gut.
38:00
And that was the advice that these, that, you know, the
38:02
parents had given me. And I think that's really key.
38:05
Listen to your gut, but also ask, ask for help and, and be
38:09
vulnerable. It's hard.
38:11
Absolutely. Yeah.
38:12
Sometimes we forget, you know, we are just, it's so ingrained
38:16
that we have to do it. We, we, you know, we have to be
38:19
strong and we have to keep going.
38:21
We, we forget to ask for help. And I absolutely agree with with
38:25
your gut feeling. It's something that I also had
38:27
to learn as as a mum. Yeah, it's hard though.
38:32
It's really hard because going back to my son's situation, in
38:37
my head, I was like, well, babies is the same as the
38:39
school, you know, babies need to go to nursery, that's what they
38:42
do. And you know, and children need
38:44
to go to school that that's what they do.
38:46
But and I would say going against the grain is really
38:51
difficult. And that's where you start
38:52
questioning yourself. And this is where the sense of
38:54
community, community has been so empowering for me that these
38:59
people have said, you know, listen to your gut, it's OK.
39:03
And they validated my wacky idea, which is he's not going to
39:07
go to nursery. Yeah, and that's absolutely
39:10
fine. Yeah, but this.
39:12
But the issue occurs now with the state of the education
39:16
system and then the news today that the view around children
39:23
needing to attend schools is really, really enforced on us,
39:27
on everybody. And again, you know, there's
39:28
this lack of choice which is really frustrating.
39:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at at least you have a few
39:38
years to to not to worry about school.
39:42
I know, yeah. But yeah, I'm like you, you
39:45
know, we, it's difficult for us to live in the present, isn't
39:48
it? We are already thinking like 3
39:51
or 4 years ahead, but yeah. Absolutely.
39:54
That makes sense and if you could change one thing about how
39:58
society views neuro divergent, what would it be?
40:05
I would like society and we're guessing there pleasantly
40:08
enough. I would like society to consider
40:12
the the period that we're in now to be really, really, truly
40:15
exciting because I think that more and more so the the
40:22
community that we're in is, is really recognising the strengths
40:25
that we have. And there is a realisation that
40:28
everyone coming together, working with different brains is
40:31
really, really powerful. What I would say, which, which
40:38
is really interesting because, you know, working in the
40:42
schools, working in the school system, inclusion and
40:45
differentiation has been a buzzword since forever.
40:48
And, you know, we're being told that everybody's different.
40:50
I've even said it, you know, being interviewed here,
40:52
everybody's different. And yes, we, we say those words,
40:57
but actually we truly do need to recognise that everybody is
41:00
different and utilising everybody's strengths.
41:03
What I have seen is in the workplace this is being
41:06
recognised and I do feel though because I was on, I was
41:09
interviewing somebody from Goldman Sachs recently about the
41:14
impact of of the workplace and your divergent in the workplace.
41:21
But what I do feel is in the workplace, the, the recognition
41:28
of different brains, let's say is being discovered and being
41:32
considered because of the financial impact, IE increased
41:36
profits. So there is that motivation
41:38
there to have somebody who's, you know, ADHD and hyper focuses
41:42
and the autistic and potentially great with numbers, you know,
41:46
but I think the outcome is increased profit whereby if we
41:51
look back at the school system, there isn't that there isn't a
41:55
motivation there. And it's quite, quite the
41:59
opposite, to be honest. I was listening to the radio
42:05
today just before Bridget Phillips and was on to announce,
42:08
announce the white paper. There was somebody talking there
42:13
about the fact that the schools are so focused on Ofsted and
42:19
grades and exams that the schools are not motivated
42:23
towards inclusion at all. Because why would they want, you
42:28
know, these different brains that can't achieve the I'm old
42:31
so you know, the age stars level nines.
42:36
There isn't that sense sense of want to have different brains
42:41
because there's no motivation because I'm Ofsted.
42:44
Maybe the change needs to come from the top, you know, Maybe
42:47
different metrics or measurements should be
42:51
implemented so that you know that motivation is starts being
42:56
there. Yeah, and I understand we need
42:59
to, you know, track progress of of every single young person.
43:03
But you can't compare somebody, you can't compare children.
43:07
You can compare where they are now, you know, and my, you know,
43:11
the prime example truly is, is last week they were going to
43:16
commit suicide. They haven't done it because of
43:18
the impact that is, that is much more powerful progress than a
43:22
young person having achieved, you know, 1 improved grade in
43:27
their GCSE. OK, it's the different children,
43:30
but there's nobody that's truly recognising the progress of
43:33
these men, the children who have truly experiencing the mental
43:36
health difficulties or even, you know, when it comes to speech
43:39
and communication, that they have the right support in place
43:43
with a speech and language therapist and that's absolutely
43:45
brilliant. And then there is, you know, the
43:47
academic tick box that is enforced on them as well.
43:52
We need to recognise there's so much going on for children,
43:56
young people and obviously adults, humans.
44:00
Yeah, yeah. Who?
44:02
Adults who haven't yet grasped how to, you know, sometimes live
44:06
their lives. So imagine children and young
44:08
people who don't have the same experience.
44:11
And you know, you're just young at heart, right?
44:14
So you wouldn't, you wouldn't know you're, you're learning
44:17
every day. Absolutely.
44:20
OK. And is there anything you wish
44:23
people better understood about ADHD, special educational needs
44:27
and disabilities or the work that you do?
44:31
So I think when it comes to neuro diversity, it's not scary.
44:37
It's something really exciting. Like to understand how people's
44:41
brains work and and how they work differently is an amazing
44:45
opportunity. And I think it's, it should be
44:48
fascinating, fascinating for everybody and an empowering and
44:54
I think there has to be a sense of a sense of joy, but also a
45:02
sense of obviously respect when it comes to a new I diverse
45:09
people. But I just think that people are
45:12
missing an opportunity if we don't get to understand each
45:15
other. And yes, I do feel, especially
45:18
in the workplace, that there was a concern around disability
45:21
laws. And you know, if the employers
45:23
don't do XY and Z for their employee, then there's going to
45:27
be an issue there. But actually if we, if we think
45:30
about it in the in the other way, if we put things in place,
45:36
if we create an environment so that we can absolutely thrive,
45:39
we are going to be the best possible employees, which is
45:43
really empower, really empowering.
45:46
Yeah, absolutely. And if listeners want to find
45:51
out more about sensational tutors, where should they go to?
45:55
And I'll link everything you mentioned, yeah.
45:57
Sure. So the website is
45:59
www.sensationaltutors.co.uk. We're obviously on Facebook,
46:08
Instagram as well. We have a YouTube channel now, a
46:12
very, very, very small one with some of the interviews that I've
46:15
been doing, including the one from Goldman Sachs.
46:19
And you know, going forwards, what I'm keen to do personally
46:23
is to be an interviewer of people, people's experiences and
46:29
especially parents whose children have experienced trauma
46:33
and, and really their journeys. That's something I'm truly
46:36
wanting to understand a bit more of and how as a system, we can
46:41
change things so that unfortunately for these parents
46:44
and the children, they have experienced trauma, But how can
46:46
we change things going forwards for these young people?
46:50
Early intervention, yes, that's been talked about a lot,
46:52
including today. But we really need to be
46:55
thinking about what that looks like as a strategy for these for
46:58
these families. And if the trauma has been
47:02
experienced, how can we support that family young person to
47:07
repair some of that so that they can live, you know, live a
47:12
fuller life and live a live a life where they feel valued and,
47:16
and, and care for and cared for and are able to access, access
47:22
the world with a bit more of a smile on their face, which is
47:24
the overall intention. Yeah, that sounds fantastic that
47:27
that sounds like a really good initiative.
47:29
So if anyone is, you know, up to be interviewed, should they go
47:35
to the website and contact the generic e-mail address?
47:38
Yeah, or either generic e-mail address which is
47:42
enquiries@sensationaltutors.co.uk or Joanna, which is mine, Joanna
47:47
at sensationaltutors.co.uk. Great.
47:50
Looking forward to seeing those interviews.
47:53
I had seen the the Goldman Sachs OH.
47:56
Brilliant. Great, great.
47:59
OK, now moving on to the inner journey which is the final
48:03
section of of the interview. Who is your biggest support on
48:07
your journey? I've mentioned him before and
48:12
unfortunately I'm going to have to mention him again and it is
48:14
my husband he will love me for. Saying that, but it is.
48:18
It truly is he, and I don't tell him this enough.
48:21
And I'll probably get him to listen to this podcast.
48:26
Yeah, he's really had my my back.
48:28
And yeah, he's just from the beginning seen my passion, seen
48:36
my drive, seen who I am and a as a person.
48:40
And, and this is very odd in the relationship as well.
48:43
When he second date told me he was going to marry me and I told
48:46
him that he wasn't, you know, it's, it's from the beginning
48:51
and there have been hurdles, you know, there have been
48:53
challenges. When I had my ADHD diagnosis and
48:57
when it came to that absolutely horrendous assessment that
49:00
lasted a long time, it was him. It was him that basically said,
49:07
yes, the ADHD is having an impact on our relationship.
49:11
And I find it fascinating going back to the diagnosis that if it
49:14
wasn't for having a negative impact on a relationship, you
49:17
actually don't get the diagnosis.
49:19
It's just something you can deal with.
49:21
But because of there being negative implications, I got the
49:25
diagnosis. So, yeah, it, it was, it's him
49:31
really through the process of the diagnosis, through the
49:35
business, through the anxiety that I really suffered in the
49:41
beginning of, of our relationship, I was really
49:43
quite, quite well, quite I'll with it.
49:47
But he, he pulled me through that and saw me as a person.
49:52
And here, here I am today, with a very big smile on my face.
49:57
Well, that's what we like to see, happy couple.
50:00
But you know, we all have our hurdles and you know what's a
50:04
good relationship with without an argument or or a fight.
50:10
But yeah, it's great to see. It feels my heart to see that
50:14
you have that. Yeah, I'm, I'm lucky.
50:17
I would say I'm lucky because we, yeah, we chose each other or
50:23
he chose me. I think, as I said, I did not
50:25
want to get married. I was not going to be one of
50:26
those people with a ring on my finger.
50:28
But he broke me down and worked on me and here we are.
50:33
And he knew on the second date, so he.
50:36
Did he Did, yeah. Great.
50:40
And Joanna, you are a busy person, how do you treat
50:45
yourself with regards to your well-being?
50:50
My I'm definitely at my happiest and it's definitely going to
50:54
sound cliche, but I'm definitely at my happiest when I am making
50:58
a difference. So I do try to be around people
51:03
who have the same values as me. I think the older I get, the
51:07
older I get, the more overwhelmed in a positive way,
51:12
the more overwhelmed I get when I do meet people who share the
51:15
passion and drive to make a difference equally so.
51:18
And people don't have the same values, then I am quite the
51:25
opposite. I'm quite black and white.
51:27
You know, if somebody oversteps the mark in terms of, you know,
51:31
disrespecting somebody who I value really highly or yeah,
51:36
demonstrates that I shouldn't trust them anymore, then
51:39
unfortunately that that's a bit of a different story.
51:42
But in terms of me creating the environment for myself, it's
51:48
about being around people who I truly, truly, truly love.
51:52
And that comes from, you know, my team members in the business,
51:56
their values, their passion, their absolute drive to support
51:59
our incredible families and young people.
52:02
They keep me going a lot. I have to say, you know, work
52:06
is, is hard, but the shared values within the company
52:12
structure and the, you know, the staff, that's what keeps me
52:16
going, have them to bounce me back.
52:19
Yeah, and sometimes that's difficult to find.
52:21
So yeah, yeah, yeah. And who is your biggest
52:26
inspiration? Anybody who has a massive amount
52:34
of drive to make a difference in whatever field.
52:37
But I just think it takes a lot to stand by a value so strongly
52:45
that you want to change, you know, be it policy, be it
52:49
somebody's mind, anything that yeah, any, anybody that has a
52:55
has a drive that I value. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
53:01
And if you were a superhero or had a superpower, who or what
53:05
would that be and how would you use it to?
53:07
Make. The world a better place for
53:10
children and young people with special educational needs and
53:14
and disabilities. I would, and this probably
53:18
applies to everybody. I would try to get everybody
53:21
just to stop and to listen. Now stop and listen to that
53:25
young person. Don't try to pretend that you
53:29
know better that than that young person, because you absolutely
53:32
don't. We need to be listening to them
53:34
and giving them the space to communicate to you.
53:36
So in terms of superpower, stop and listen.
53:40
The ability to stop and listen for everybody.
53:43
Yeah, that sounds great and very, very useful.
53:47
And if there was a song that captures your journey, would you
53:52
be able to name 1? This one is quite difficult
53:55
because more than time, there's more than one.
53:59
Gosh not. I don't know what the song would
54:11
be, but something about, you know, being incredibly
54:14
adventurous and unstoppable. Unstoppable.
54:18
Hopefully you know with the right.
54:22
Sia has the song called Unstoppable.
54:24
It's one of my favourites. That's probably it.
54:26
Nice, We'll go with that one. Right.
54:30
And what are your hopes for the future?
54:35
A sense of calmness, as you know, I think guessing, you
54:45
know, and that kind of links to my superpower.
54:47
Just the ability to sometimes stop and listen to myself.
54:52
I should be using the superpower myself, shouldn't I?
54:54
You know, just being calm, being proud of, of what I've achieved
55:01
and the impact that we've made for hundreds of families and,
55:05
and being reflective of that and patting myself on the back
55:12
actually, because I don't. And not being so, yeah, anxious
55:19
and, and, and stressed to, to fix every, every family's
55:25
challenges that they, you know, they, they rightly come to us
55:30
four. We can't fix everything.
55:32
And I want, but I want to because every family is so
55:36
special and amazing. But that's what makes you
55:38
special, and that's what makes you keep going.
55:41
But you should definitely be proud of yourself and pat
55:43
yourself in the back more often. Yeah, yeah.
55:48
And finally, if your heart had a voice, what would he tell us?
55:56
It would tell us, yeah, just to to well, probably give me a hug
56:12
and just yeah, it would create a warm, comforting feeling and and
56:19
give me a hug and and say well done, you know, keep going, but
56:23
well done. Look at the look at the the
56:25
lives you've you've literally changed if not saved.
56:30
Yeah. And that's a wonderful way of
56:33
ending the interview. Thank you so much, Rana.
56:35
It's been thank you pleasure and privilege to interview you and
56:40
I'm I'm sure we will stay in touch.
56:43
Brilliant. Yeah.
56:45
I'm looking forward to see how sensational tutors develops and
56:48
to continue following your your career progression.
56:52
And, and once again, you should be definitely very proud of
56:55
yourself. I'm patting you in the back.
56:59
Thank you. Appreciate that.
57:01
Great. Thank you.
57:03
Thank you. Thank you for listening or
57:23
watching the Neuro Diverse Voices Podcast.
57:26
If today's conversation resonated with you, please know
57:30
that you are not alone. Your experience matters, your
57:34
voice matters, and your way of being in the world is valid.
57:39
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57:47
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Join me again next time for more honest conversations, powerful
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neurodivergent journey is different.
58:08
And remember, when you meet one neurodivergent person, you've
58:11
only met one neurodivergent person.
58:15
Until next time, take care, bye.