Latest / The You Project / #1873 Dodgy Backs - Dr. Jeff Gross

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#1873 Dodgy Backs - Dr. Jeff Gross · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get our tell him welcome to another instorm and
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: the show. Tiff and Here and Cook has joined us graciously.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Doctor Jeff has missed her for the last six, seven,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: eight nine episodes because she spoiled him on episode one
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and just got him a little bit addicted to her,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: you know, not not hard, and then she disappeared puff
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: into the night, never to be seen again. Why are
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: you back? Yeah, oh you're asking Tip.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: I thought you were asking me aware, Doc, I don't know.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: I thought I really joined this, this you know community,
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: this the U project community, because I felt like, you know,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Craig is sort of the Howard Stern of you know
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: podcasts down under It. You were his Robin Quivers and
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: this was going to be this funny dialogue and he'd
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: make you laugh and be embarrassed and and I would
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: feel awkward, and then you were gone.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Do we Is Howard Stern still up and about? I mean,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: is he still on the air?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I think so. But his last over the years, his humor,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: and I think with did his any credibility that might
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: have gone with him being an entertainer.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: He seemed to get a bit grumpy there for a while.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I think we didn't really grow up. I mean we
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: kind of know. I know him a little bit more
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: because I've taken an interest, but most dozzies have never
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: really I could be do you know who he is?
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Tiff?
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: I know the name, but I couldn't tell you anything
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: about it.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of people kind of know his name,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: but we didn't grow up, Like he didn't have a
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: presence over here. But it's that was the that was
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: the He was almost like, not the pioneer of podcasting,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: but he was kind of doing podcast style radio, which
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: was just, you know, kind of wild, out of control
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: where he got amazing ratings, but I think the stations
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: were always pulling the hair out because they didn't know
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: what the fuck was gonna happen. He was a wild child, yep.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I mean he did all kinds of shit on air,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: didn't he doc.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you called it. He was one of the early
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: we call them shock jokes.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and he I'll tell you off AIRTIF some
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: of the shit that he used to do on air live,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: But we won't be doing any of that on the
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: You Project because we're clearly we're a family show operating
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: with the highest level of integrity. I mean, look at us.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Have you ever seen three more different people than the doc?
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: And you and me? Like him over there with his
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: giant brain in his beautiful office and he's like fucking
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: magnificent Hollywood face, and me the redneck from more Well,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: and then you seventy thirty man who likes punching people
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: self proclaimed. By the way, everybody, don't send me an
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: email speak to me.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Which did I tell you that? Benny Fort? Did I
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: tell you that? Have I seen you?
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: No?
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Ben Ford, the broadcaster from Sydney? What about him?
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: No? No, not ben Ford, Benny Fort. Ben Fort's a
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: blind guy that I did the sparring sessions with Doc
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: to keep you up to speed. I had a couple
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: of sparring sessions with a blind bloke to get him
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: ready for a fight.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Can I tell you now?
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Just hang on, hang on, let him digest all those variables.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I'll just repeat that I did a couple of sparring
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: sessions with a blind bloke to get him ready for
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: a fight. What the fuck is that about?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: This is the pilot episode for our sitcom soon to
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: be found on major network.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go on, what happened with the blind bloke? That's
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: going to get in. There's no I can't see any
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: problems with that.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: By the way, So he fought last Saturday night, thrown
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: into the ring six other blokes with blindfolds. Benny blind
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: didn't need the blindfold. He won and broke your guy's ribs,
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: just saying boom.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Could you be any prouder right now?
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: I'm so proud of him.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: You taught someone to be violent and how to hurt.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Do you know how hard it is for novices to
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: even throw a body shot, let alone landed. He broke
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: your guy's ribs. That's brilliant.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: And he couldn't even see who he was hitting. Yeah,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: so all these opponents did they put bells around their necks?
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: No, they just it was chaos. They just had all
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: had blindfold on any or if you if you shuffled
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: out of the pack, they had ashes there, just just
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: shoving you back into the chaos.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: How did the docs like? Can you get to me?
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: You fucking idiots?
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: I don't like this.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I'm an important person.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: You go ahead.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: How do you reckon that? We'll come to you in
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: a moment. How do you reckon the insurance went for
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: that event? Tip?
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'd love to know some of the back you know,
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: the back end dramas that they must have to go
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: through to get that approved.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: That's never getting approved in the States. Is it doc
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: like blokes in a ring in blind fold, blindfolded punching
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: each other, being assaulted by an actual blind bloke.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: It's happening here. It's it's called reality TV. It's usually
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: it usually starts the title starts the Real Housewives of
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: and fill in.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: The blind Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Do you
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: we'll get onto the top. I actually have a real
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: topic today, a surprising I know. Do you take any
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: interest in or what do you think about let's just
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: call the blanket term cage fighting. Mainly people think of
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: the UFC, But do you hate it? Are you interested
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: in it? What are your thoughts on it?
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: No, It's it's kind of like driving by, you know,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: a car wreck.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: You know you don't want to stop traffic and behind
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: you or cause another accent, but you can't help but
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: to look so. So, although I know that these guys
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: are causing all kinds of head injuries and damage and things,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I do I do have that sort of side of
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: me that likes to watch, you know.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: I'm the same. Yeah, I'm with you, like I love
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: watching it, but I'm I just don't want all the
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: brain damage. I'm like, if we could do everything except
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: punch each other in the head and kick each other
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: in the head, Oh my god.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Yep. And I'm here, you know, just a few miles
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: from the UFC headquarters is my office. You know, we
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: drive by it all the time. And and you know,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: the guys that Dina White and the owners of that
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: they're they're here in town and and so so a
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: lot of those fighters are around. We do see them periodically.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Mmm. Well, people want to do it, people want to
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: watch it, people want to pay for it. And in
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: the last ten years it's been the biggest growing sport
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: in the world, so in terms of growth. So it's
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: a multi billion dollar industry now. And some people hate it.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: It's probably there's no more divisive sport than cage fighting,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I guess. But nonetheless, I don't think it's going away
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: anytime soon. All Right, I wanted to talk to you today.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: And by the way, doctor Jeff never knows what I'm
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: going to ask him, so he's done no prep. But
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't think he needs to because like.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: A blindfolded Vader.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Really yeah, pretty much, pretty much. So you want to
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: see this coming. I mean, we've never done an episode
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: talking about back pain and back issues. I've had significant
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: back issues over the years. Can we chat about backs
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: today or have you got an.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: I would love to. I would absolutely love to, because
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: you know, my my origins are in spinecare. So for
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: two and a half decades that was the number one
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: thing I did. I trained for I wasn't trained by Tiff,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: but because I had heard of Guy's ribs. But I
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: would love to. Let's let's break it down, Let's use
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: you as the sacrificial lamb, guinea pig, whatever you want to,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: let's do that.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, I think for me, I always want
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: to talk to you about stuff that's going to be
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: you know, interesting in all of that, but also stuff
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: that's broadly relevant. And I don't know too many people
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: who have never had back pain or you know, a
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: problem on the scale somewhere between one and ten, and
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: so I think you know lower back pain, like thoracic pain,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: neck pain, shoulder pain, all tied in, I guess, But
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: what is like where do you want to start? Like,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: what are some of the things that we do to
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: create problems that we could probably quite easy easily address
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: or you know, I would imagine sitting on our ass
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  Speaker 1: all day is not a great stuff.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: I was about to say, all three of us are
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: guilty right at this moment, So we should sit last.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: We should, you know, get those little treadmills at our
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: desk and walk and stand up off and move around,
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: stretch and and participate in some regular regimen that involves
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: the core. But let me speak to the core. Because
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: when I see a patient with back pain, and when
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: I say back pain, I'm really talking specifically low back pain. Yeah,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: when I see a patient with that, you know, and
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I say, hey, we should really, you know, build your core,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: and the thing that goes to their mind commonly is, oh,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: you mean my abs, right, my abdominals. And just set
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: the record straight, the abs are only the front of
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: the core. The core wraps all the way around you.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: The muscles in your in your lower back, in your
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: in your flanks, in your sides, you know, in the
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: corners are also part of the core. And if you
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: build and maintain that core, you've basically built yourself a
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: muscular brace that protects the lower back slash lumbar spine
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: and maintaining that. Building it and maintaining it is like
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: wearing a brace and a brace. If you wore a
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: fake brace, and if I gave you a a breast
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: to put on to where and protect your lower back,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: you'd actually get weaker. Yeah, work against you in the
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: long run.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: We use them very sparingly for you know, fractures to
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: heal and things. But so anyway, I think, you know,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: get up and move and build the entire core is
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: the simple preventative and the simple solution if you have
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: something minor enough.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: And I think also, like you make a really good
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: point because when you think about in the gym, and
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: I've spent my whole life in gyms and owning gyms,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: the amount of people who would train you know, basically
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: the front that simplified the front. They're training their you know,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: rector subdominance. They're generally not training their TVA transversus subdominance.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: They're not training internal or external obliques. They're not training
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: the muscles at the back, their hip extenses, you know that.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: And then what happens is sometimes uh, you know, so
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: they'll build the the abs in inverted commas while not
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: trying anything else, and then they actually create another problem
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: because now they've got a muscular imbalance.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Correct and correct, okay, and it's very good. Now this
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: is the advanced course, and you're absolutely right. So you
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: overwork the rectus abdominance. It pulls your for it pulls
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: you into a slight forward hunch position involving the lower back,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: and that actually puts an eccentric dorsal posterior meaning backwards
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: force on the disc material and actually can make your
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: discs worse, can actually make the problem worse. But you
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: touched on the transversus subdominance. And I have become a
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: bigger and bigger believer in that being a big health muscle.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: And and you know, you can explain it perhaps better
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: than I can. But it's the muscle behind the rectus
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: that goes horizontal, and it's the one you suck your
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: gut in real hard like. But see Tiff is going
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: to wind up a big punch and hit you in
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: the gut and you have a moment to guard yourself
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: and taitin up. Yeah, that's the muscle. If you could,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: if you could do those sort of Taitan exercises while
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: you're sitting in your chair or plank exercises on the ground.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: You're doing yourself a fever.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I see in the gym we see a
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: lot of kind of not particularly functional training. And even
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: with the back itself, you see a lot of people
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: who train the upper back. So they'll do you know,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: lap pool downs, they'll do one arm rows or seated rows,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: or they'll do a multitude of things that are training
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: their lats and they're you know rhomboids and rear delts
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. And so they train their
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: back twice a week, but they never train their lower
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: back specifically and again, so then you got this upper
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: back that looks like a fucking tortoiseshell and it's like
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: nine out of ten strong and the lower back's two
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: out of ten. So again, you predispose yourself to injury. Yeah.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: We call that here in the States the frat boy workout. Yeah,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: and if you know what that, it refers to a
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: college fraternity. These are guys who just want to have
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: showy biceps and pecks so they can you know, look
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: good at the beach and catch you as the lady
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: walking by. But they're not really building themselves for health
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: and balance and stability.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: So what's what I mean, what's the most common kind
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: of like one of the most common back injuries. Is
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: it disc? Is it nerve stuff? Is a muscular stuff?
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Is it spine?
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean the most common problem is disc based.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: The discs have some fragility. As they get older and drier,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: they can more likely tears as they suffer repetitive stress
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: from a weak core and lifting and lifting improperly not
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: using your leg muscles. They're subject to stress. On top
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: of that, then if you injure those, then the muscles
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: have to tighten in sort of a reflexive response, and
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: you get these spasms and people come in asay, my
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: back went out, and they're sort of hunched forward or
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: bent over, and that's that's the back saying I got
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: to hold you this way. The muscles are reflexively doing
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: that for an underlying structural problem, usually of the disc. Yes,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: you can have there are some joints in the spine
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: that can be injured. We see that usually in a
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: whiplash style injury, but more common than that, I'd say
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: disc disc dryness, tearing within the disc, and then if
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: it tears the center material of the disc, called the nucleus,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: can actually slip out of place. You've heard this slip
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: disc perhaps we use that phrase here. That's where a
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: piece of that material, you know, gets through the outer
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: layer of the disc, which is like the rubber, you know,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: winding of the golf ball if you ever cut into
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: one of those. So when that gets out, then it
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: can it can in addition to the back pain and
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: the loss of cushioning function, it can actually irritate and
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: or oppress compress a nerve that's passing by and contributing
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: to the sciatic nerve down your leg, which is why
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: people use the word saiatica. Sometimes you guys use that
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: word there too.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, very common. Do you. I'm going to
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: ask you, I don't know, like we might use different terms,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: and I don't know if I'm going to ask you
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: questions that are not really in your wheelhouse, but because
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of I think from an exercise science point
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: of view, and obviously you come from a clinical medical
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: point of view. But something like a deadlift, which I'm
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: sure you know what it is, you know, where you're
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: picking up a barbell from the floor. Now I mean
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: when people go to me, what do you think of deadlifts?
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, who's doing it? How are they doing it?
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Why are they doing it? What's their tech? You know,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: there are so many variables, like it can be good,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: it can be fucking catastrophic depending on what you doing. Yeah, yeah,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on for one of a better
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: term people picking stuff up off the floor. You know,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: whether or not it's a barbelle, a dumbbell, or but
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: just that movement of being able to bend down and
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: grab something and bring it back up to vertical is
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: that something people should do actively and consciously or avoid.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: I think outside of a of a gym setting, of
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: a rehabilitative or exercise setting, you should we should be
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: squatting to pick something up and keep whatever weight we
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: are lifting as close to the center of gravity, the
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: center of our body, of the core as we can.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: It weighs the least, there's the least torque on the
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: spine if you come straight up, if you are bent
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: over and you're not fully prepared and you know, trained
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: to do it, that's that's a recipe for injury in
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: a gym setting. Under the guidance of someone like you
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: or you know you. You build up to dead lifts,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: You start with slow, low weight, You build up the
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: muscles that allow you to lift like that, and you
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: do it. You do it protected, you do it. Your
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: body knows what's happening. It can use other muscles to
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: protect you, as opposed to you know, Oh, I've got
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: to lift this gallon of milk off the off the ground.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you know, let me speak in your language.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: It's two liters milk jug off, you know, and you
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: know you're not prepared for it's you didn't you didn't
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: you know, get into an athletic stance you didn't take,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: you know, get your other muscles ready. It's very it's
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: a very different thing from a from a prepared standpoint.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. I think people don't think about that
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: that psychological slash cognitive component of how focused am I?
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: How much am I paying attention to what I'm doing now?
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Because if if I'm consciously, you know, focused on lifting
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: this thing and lifting it the right way, the outcome
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: is going to be much better. I remember it. I
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: don't know, I've probably clinically speaking, fucked my back. That's
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: the clinical term. Here in Australia, Doc, But what I
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: would call about, you know, where I was in all
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: sorts of trouble for a week or two, like lots
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: of pain, probably about ten times in my adult life,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: and in going and having cortizone shots and all that. Right,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: But one of the times where I really stuffed my back,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I was at my at my own gym, and I
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: was in the staff room talking to some of my
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: staff and I felt a sneeze coming on. And what
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I was instead of turning away like completely just turning
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: my body to face away, I left basically my hips
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: facing forward and I turned my torso so now my
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: back was twisted and I sneezed, and I that was it.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I was like, I literally fucked my back sneezing. Yeah,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: And I was in trouble for like two weeks. And
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: this is the same guy that that morning deadlifted with
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: no problems.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Right, it's not uncommon if that's not funny, Tiff, Yeah, yeah,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: how did you do that?
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: How much were you lifting? I sneezed. You're pathetic your ship.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the Craig, what you say is, if
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I were not so massively overdeveloped with muscle you know,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: a regular a guy like you or Sneeze can just
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: really throw you out right. But average bloke, an average bloke,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: how do I use the bloke correctly?
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: There?
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: You know, he's he's.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Fine, Yeah yeah, yeah, oh well we'll see they'll try
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: not to. But I learned my lesson. But back just
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: quickly too, even with you know, so when doctor Jeff
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: says center of gravity, everybody is just basically talking about
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: you know that, like if you hold a weight. For example,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: let's say you get a five kilo weight, think of
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: it like this, and let's say you literally hold that weight.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Five kilos is eleven pounds. So you hold that literally
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: against your stomach and it's five kilos, and it probably
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: feels like five kilos. Now, if you take that thirty
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: centimeters away from your stomach or you know, a foot
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: away from your stomach, and you hold that same weight,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like the same weight because it's in
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: inverted commas heavier. It's, of course it's not heavier, but
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: it feels heavier because it's away from your cog. And
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: then you take that out to a straight arm and
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: it's the furthest away from your center of gravity. That
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: you can hold it, and that's why. Yeah, when you
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: quite often when people do things like lifting a suitcase
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: out of a vehicle, out of the boot or you
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: call it the trunk, right when you lift a suitcase
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: out and you're leaning forward and the weight is way
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: forward of your cog. Lots of people stuff they're back
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: doing things like that.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Correct, that's exactly right.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: It's really in a really really bad, you know, lifting position.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Is it possible that or well I think the answer
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: is yes. But tell me how it seems possible that
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: some people have got what shows up under X ray
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: or scan or whatever has pretty shitty backs, but they
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: don't have pain, or they don't have hardly.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Any so the comments yes. The vice versus of the
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: commentary here is imaging tests. MRI's X rays, catscans do
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: not tell if you have pain or not, and pain
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: doesn't determine what your imaging might look like. The art
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: of medicine is correlating the two to see if you
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: can match up something you see on the imaging to
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: fit the pain and vice versa. So yet it's something
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: like twenty percent of asymptomatic people have some type of
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: lumbar disc herniated herniation. There was a paper in the
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighties medical article about that it's the minority, but
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: it's still a real number, and then vice versa. The
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: vast majority of aging people will have some type of
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: degenerative anatomy. Bone spurs, thinning of the height of the disk,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: dryness of the disc, which, of course, like a dried
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: gasket in your engine, is more likely to crumble and tear,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: or because it's not as resilient and squishy. Think about
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: your kitchen sponge. When it's wet, it's moist, you can
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: change the shape and it springs back. When you leave
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: for vacation, you'll come back a week later. The kitchen
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: sponges capletely hard. You have to, you know, wet it
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: to get it soft down. So just sort of like
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: that in some ways.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Hey, Tiff, why don't you tell the doc? Why don't
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: you tell the good doc while you've got one of
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the best doctors in the world on the show fuck It,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: let's get a free consult tell him about your dodgy
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: neck and shoulder and and see if he can give
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: you a little bit of advice.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: Well, I had an MRI earlier this year, and when
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: my doctor said, oh, you don't depends what you want
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: to do with this. That don't really mean anything. And
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: then when I went back for the results, he said,
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: it's not good. It's not good news. All my neck
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: had lost the curve and straightened and is impinging on
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: all of it, so closing the holes for the nerves.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: Yet now most mornings I wake up with pins and
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: needles in my hands. Sometimes I get them when I'm
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: riding the motorbike. It's awesome.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Well, let's let's let's unpack that. As they say, I
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: think I might be able to give you some advice
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: and for listeners and viewers of this of this show,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: some insight into a couple different elements. First, let's start
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: with MRI I. Greg Or Tiff, do you know how
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: an MRI works?
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I know what MRI stands for, but other than magnetic
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: resonance imaging not particularly known.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: All right, well, let's let's talk about it for a minute,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: because it's it's really cool. It's like of all the
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: technology we have in the world this day and age,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: you know, artificial intelligence, you know, nuclear technology? Yeah, good
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: or bad? MRI I is is right in there, and
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: it kind of falls under the heading of nuclear physics
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: of sorts. So let's let's explain it and what it's
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: really cool and what it is is you you you
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: get inside this powerful magnet and the magnet is measured,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: the strength of the magnet is measured, and what's called
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: tesla and not to be confused with the car company,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: but but with the you know, father of modern electromagnetic
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: energy and the Nicola Tesla. So the higher the number
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: the field of the magnet, the better the resolution of
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: the images. We call that signal to noise ratio and
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: we get a lot more but different information than a
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: CAT scan. A cat scan is a computed X ray
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: and you can thank the Beatles for cat scans? Did
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: you know that?
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Do tell.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: The U when when the math technology was coming out
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: to figure out how to take a bunch of X rays,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: digitize the information mathematically converted into a two D image
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: and different planes and have that data by what's called
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: you know, forty a transform. The company I believe it
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: was called Electronic Data, something I believe was in Canada,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: was actually funded by the Beatles. Their manager was investing
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: their money very intelligently and they funded this company that
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: actually developed cat scan. I think it's EEDI or something
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: like that. Wow, So they were behind that. So every
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: time you have a cat scan, the Beatles probably get
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: a royalty. But the back to Amri. So you get
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: in this field, and a really good one these days
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: is called a three tesla magnet. And I'm gonna throw
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: a little math in here, but the strength of the
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: magnet refers to the You have to square that number
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: to understand the relative strength of the pictures. So if
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: you go into a three tesla versus a one point
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: five tesla, that's not a The three isn't twice as good.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: It's it's three squared as nine compared to one point five,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: which is squared it's two point twenty five. So it's
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: you know, three or four times better. And they even
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: have seven tesla magnets in a couple plays Academic Center.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: So the pictures are amazing. It's like looking at the
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: real anatomy. But these these three tesla magnets. You get
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: in there and it looks at your water in your body.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: So there's water in our cells, in our fat, in
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: our tissues, and in our fluids. And the water has
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: H two O and the H is hydrogen and hydrogen
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: has you know, if you think about the atomic symbol, right,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: has a little proton circulating around there. So you get
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: in this magnet and all of your your protons are
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: spinning and it lines up all the spin but uh,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: and then it turns off. And this happens very fast, right,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: and that's why it makes these loud sounds. Tiff, wasn't
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: that loud, like bang bang bang bang bang?
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yep.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: So it's turning on, turning off, turning on, turning off.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: So it turns on, it aligns all of your protons
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: in your water, in your body, and then they they
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: get energized and then they want to relax back to
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: the way they were. Some of them are lazier than
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: others and relax faster. As they relax from a high
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: energy state to a lower energy state, they give off
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: a little er radio signal, would you believe. And these
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: rooms are heavily embedded with the walls have copper, so
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: there's no extraneous radio signal. And they have these very
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: sensitive detectors in three D space that know in the
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: xyz planes, depending on where you are in that machine,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: what radio signal was giving off by which group of
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: tissues and that's basically translated mathematically into a vauxel, which
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: is a three D XYZ picture of that little spot
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: like a pixel on a TV. And then it can
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: assign values like certain tissues have more water, relaxing, quicker,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: et cetera. And they've assigned those and now we can
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: look at anatomy based upon the relaxing of the protons
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: of your water. So I just want to throw that
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: out there because it is one of the coolest things
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: we have going for us in medical imaging.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Wow, there's going to be a test at the end
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: tip so there.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Will be Yeah, and we're just scratching the surface. We're
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: only looking at protons and water. We could be looking
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: at other things. And there are a couple other tests
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: where they look at things. But and this is this
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: is incredible stuff. But they get this MRI and and
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: you have to think about this MRI. It's a snapshot
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: in time. So so they looked at your neck and
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: they told you. First thing they told you is you've
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: lost the normal curve of your neck. So the spine
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: is built of curves. The neck also known as the
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: cervical spine. You guys say cervical or cervical cervical, okay,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: because we had a South African professor who said cervical,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: but some.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: But generally I say cervical.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: So the cervical is is the top seven vertebrae from
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: the skull down to your what we call the thoracic spine,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: some people call the dors spine. And that's tell you why, yep, yep,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: the t's so that And how do you know the
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: t's because they got ribs. You got you know, twelve
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: sets ribs, you got twelve te's. So but this upper
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: seven are your neck. You know how many tiff You
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: know how many vertebra a giraft's neck has. No, I didn't, Craig,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: do you know.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: How many vertebrates a drafts neck has. I'm gonna go
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: with that. I'm going to one hundred and twenty two.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Well you're almost close. It's seven, just like us even
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: they're just really tall.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Wow. Ever, yeah, wow, I was?
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Are we having so this?
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Those seven have a gentle sea shaped curve, and the lumbar,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: the lower back has a gentle sea shaped curve, and
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: the thoracic has a reverse sea shaped curve, such that
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: when you add up all these curves the seven in
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: the cervical, the alternating curve of the twelve and the thoracic,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: and then to the five in the lumbar. They cancel
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: out so that the head always sits above the pelvis.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: So that's called sagital balance or neutral balance. Where our
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: heads should be right, that center of gravity should be
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: straight up and down. The head should sit above your
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: your tail. So these curves cancel out. If they don't,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: you could start to get thrown out of whack.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: So as as the neck is becomes degenerated to the
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: discs degenerator, they have injuries and things like that, it
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: tends to lose its curve. We also see that in
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: muscle spasm and injury, the neck loses its curve. Sometimes
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: the body's tightening it up on purpose and that pulls
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: it out of curve. We love the curve because it's
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: the least stressful posture for the disks. So building up
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: the back of the neck muscles to the exercise science
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: guru Greig Harper of The Up Project, my favorite bloke.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: So you you.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: You can build those up. I like I like people
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: to do, you know, push against Yeah, uh, you know
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: you could. They have these gizmos too. You can hook
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: your head up in a straddle and pull on a weight.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: But but building up the reverse muscles in the neck
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: that go up and down the neck is probably the
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: best thing to rebuild the structure of the muscles of
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: the neck and regain that that healthy curve. But in
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: your case, the loss of the curve is a symptom,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: not a disease. It's a clue your body's trying to
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: protect itself. And then Tiff said, the nerve pathways that
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: transmit the nerves from your spinal cord out the spine
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: to your shoulders, arms and hands, tingling in the hands,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: and that you mentioned it is a manifestation of the
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: little little nerve windows and accumulation of disk degeneration, bone spurs,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: and sometimes you're just born with little narrow pathways can
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: crowd that space where they travel, and that we call
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: that stenosis. Those windows are called peramena peramena or Latin
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: plural so pheramenal stenosis is what you have. And it
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: can bother the nerves down into the arm in different
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: patterns all the way down to the hand. And that
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: bothering is called ridiculopathy. It's ridiculous when you have it
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: that it's ridiculopathy. And why is that the word? Because
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: those nerves that come out your spine from the spinal
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: cord are called the nerve roots because of the very
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: the very first part of the creation of the nerve
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: that goes out. And if you remember from math class,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: if you take the root of a number, like the
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: root of four, you're also taking the radical of four
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: of the radical four of courses too. So the nerve
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: problem with the nerve root is a root apathy or
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: in Latin radical apathy ridiculous apathy. There you go, you're
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: an expert.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: I reckoned a couple of things, right, that was first thing.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: You need to start a podcast called ridiculopathy. You were
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. You can have that. That's free. Right, that's free.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Didn't do that. That was jumbo jumbo GPT. Remember we've
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: spoken about training, the training and the neck extenses and
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: how people are very strong through sterno clido mastoid like
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: like the muscles that everybody.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Is through there. I had to I had to spend
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: my first four weeks doing chin tucks to turn those
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: and now I've progressed to doing weird strapping my head
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: to a squat right standing against it.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, training those reird neck muscles. It's tricky though, because
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: it's not it's I mean, it's of course it's possible.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: And I love that you said that because people say
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: to me, or I often say to people when we're
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: talking about neglected muscle groups, I talk about training the neck,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: and people like, train the neck. What for? I'm like, yeah,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: because every second person has a fucking sore neck and
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: people don't train it. And then so the people the
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: front of the neck is relatively strong because they're in
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: this kind of reflexion forward posture, you know, talk about
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: their heads nowhere near their center of gravity, and especially
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: because sitting predisposes us to well, not always, but if
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: we're not thinking, most of us have our head forward
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: for hours and hours and hours. And then when you
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: try to get your head in. I don't know what
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: it's called, what you would call it anatomically, but I
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: just call it like a neutral position where it's Yeah,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: when it's in a neutral position, that almost feels weird
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: to people because they're so used to this forward head position. Yep.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: One you could be a spine expert if you're not already,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: because that's exactly what we talk about. And I couldn't
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: agree with you more.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk. Are you sick of talking about
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: because I've got still got lots of questions?
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Oh no, we could talk. We could talk spine and details.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: And you know.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: What about the fact that, like a lot of people
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: through the hip flexes, So the muscles at the front
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: of your hips. Everyone hip flexes, So all the muscles
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: that let's say you're standing straight and then you bend
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: your hips you go to sit on a chair, that's
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: called hip flexion, and then when you stand back up,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: that's called hip extensions or hip extension. Must hip extents
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: or muscles are at the back, hip flex or muscles
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: are at the front, right, because because we sit so
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: much where to sit down generation? I read somewhere recently
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: that we we expend between six and eight hundred calories
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: less per day than two generations ago because of I
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: don't know how accurate that is, but I liked it,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: so I just milk it. But anyway, we sit down
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: a lot, and one of the byproducts is that because
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: we're so often in this hip flexion position, we have shorter,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: less flexible, tighter hip flexes, and weaker stretched kind of
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: glutes and hamstrings. Is that a thing?
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we see a lot of problems that are
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: that that cluster of issues happen. And you know a
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: lot of we call tape posterior chains the buttocks down
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: to the muscles down the back of the thigh and
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: they're just we're not getting the range of motion use
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: of well not just hips, but but you know, hips,
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: your lumbo pelvic structures are just you know, ruined if
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: you're sitting all day. And I'm guilty of it a
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: lot at the time as well. But and you've got
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: to work them those out. You've got to do flexibility work,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: you've got to do strengthening, you've got to use those parts. Yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Can I step back from the specifics of the
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: back still talking about pain, this is like this is
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: a little pain. Measuring pain is like like you know,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: like I'm doing my doctorate in psychology, right. Psychology is
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: a funny area of research because it's kind of it's
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: interesting and fascinating and necessary, but it's kind of bullshit
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: because you can't really measure. There's a lot you can't
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: measure because it's all these you know, subjective assessments, right,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: it's you know, and I think like with pain, even
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: with my clients back in the day, I would say
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: to them, you know, if they've got to saw something,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: I'd go, cool, what's like one to ten? Ten being
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: agony that you can't deal with one?
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Being?
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Fuck all? What's the score? And everyone's you know, individual
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: kind of self assessment. Like Tiff and I might be
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: feeling the exact same thing, the exact same pain, and
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: I call it a fucking nine because I'm a big baby,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: and she calls it a three because she's a warrior, right.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: But it's actually the it is how much of pain
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: as an experience or is it influenced by our psychology
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: and mindset so that that not only do we label
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: it as a higher or lower number, but can our
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: thinking actually turn up the pain so to speak?
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there is a major psychological involvement contributor
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: in the in the perception of pain, physical physical pain
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: we're talking about. But I think it makes sense here
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: to talk about the the poor utility of a linear
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: one to ten scale, and this this is called the
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: vas the visual analog scale, and It is a one
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: to ten scale. Ten is typically, you know, the highest
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: pain you've ever experienced. In zero is no pain, and
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: it was designed Craig for surgical recovery rooms. So you
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: have a major surgery, you know, someone replaces your hip,
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: and then you go in the recovery room and you're
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: in quite a bit of pain. But they don't know
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: how much morphine to give you because everyone's different in
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: how they respond to two milligrams or twelve milligrams or whatever.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: So so they ask you what's your on a one
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: to ten scale, what's your pain? And they sometimes show
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: this little picture and it has these little frownie faces
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: a ten and a little happy phase. At zero you
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: get the I'm a seven, okay, And then they give
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: you okay, we'll give you a starting those of two
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: milligrams a morphine, and then they come back five minutes
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: later to see how it hits you. Did your seven
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: go down? Yes? How far down to? Oh? I'm a three?
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: All right, I'll give you one more milligram. You know,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: that's what it's for. It was not designed for the
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: measurement of ongoing and chronic pain. The problem with this
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: scale is people adjust their perception of paint over time.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: And the scale that people one to ten scale is
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: biology is not linear, so the difference between a two
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: and a three could be vastly different between the nine
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: out of the ten and nine to ten. And then
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: there's a reference frame problem. Like you said, So you know,
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: if if if Tiff, because she's the warrior, if she
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: came over and punched your right shoulder as hard as
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: you could, and you're like, ow, Tiff, that's a nine,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: and then she'll and then and she say, but Craig,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: you've haven't seen anything yet, and she goes to your
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: other shoulder, punches it twice as hard, and it's even
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: twice as much pain on the other shoulder. You would say, wow,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: I guess that, well, first shoulder wasn't really a nine
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: because I'm already off the scale on this other one.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: So let me revise that that nine down to a five,
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: and I'll give you a ten on the new shoulder. Well,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: we have to help patience. We give them a frame.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I tell them this when you come in the office,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: if you've got pain, I want you to I want
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: you to tell me ten. Is I got to take
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: you to the hospital, right now I got to coll
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: an ambulance get you to the hospital because there's no
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: way I can manage a ten. Here in the office,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: I say, A four is where you got to take
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: a narcotic pain pill. You know, I don't. I don't
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: know what you have there in Australia, but we have
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: things like Norco and Lord Tab and Vike it in.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: You probably have different brand names, but it's a little
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: bit of a narcotic. And then and then I say
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: a seven means that pain pill isn't working. So I
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: give them a frame because they come in on it's
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: ten out of ten, like, here's my skill? Nowhere is it? Oh,
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: it's really a three? You know.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: It's it's funny. There's a very similar thing that we've
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: spoken about too much here on the show, but I'll
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: just run it out once more. But in exercise science,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: there's a skyale called the right of perceived exertion a
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: PAE which you may or may not have heard of,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: but basically it makes how hard you think you'll work
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: and the amount of times when somebody's making all kinds
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: of faces. I'm training someone an athlete or a non athlete,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: and they're grunting and fucking panting, and and I know
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: that they're not working as hard as they look like
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: they're or they're they're making out they're working. And I say,
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: out of ten ten, being your absolute superhuman end of
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: the scale, you couldn't do anymore, any harder, any heavier,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: like ten out of ten, what are you working out now?
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: What was that set? And people will often say, oh,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: that that was an eight or nine, And I'm like,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: because I'm literally I've literally been around tens of thousands
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: of sessions and workouts, I'm going, it's a three. It's
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: maybe a four. And so that person who just did
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: an exercise on a certain weight, so a certain exercise
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: at a certain weight, and they did twelve reps and
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: they thought that was almost their app max. And then
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: I have this chat to them right now where I
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: talk about the difference between what is hard and what
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: we think is hard, and what we're capable of and
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: where we think we're at, and I just talk about
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: literally the perception of effort, and I go, I could
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: be wrong, but I've never been wrong with this stuff before.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: I reckon twelve for you as you working at three
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: or four, And then I say, I want you without
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: being silly, We're not going to kill you that I
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: want you to do as many reps on this weight
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: and let's just see what happens. Do not put it down,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: do not stop until you physically can't fucking move it.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: And then the person who did twelve then does forty, right,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: and they're like, and what is good about that?
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: Is not?
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, I can do sets of forty. Now now that's
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: not the point. The point is, I go. Your limitation
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: is not your physiology, it's your psychology. Your body is
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: fucking amazed, but don't let your mind get in the way.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: And I feel like that's true for not just exercise,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: but many things.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: If you could bottle what you just said and that
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: applies to everything, it's yeah, you're you're spot on, and
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: it I'm glad you said that. It makes me bring
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: up a topic here that you can help with. I've
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: been akin recently to doing workouts more efficiently. My wife
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: and I go every morning to the gym, and we
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: instead of doing the old traditional three sets of ten
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: or something like that, we are doing something I learned
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: from John Janquish, which is if you know who this
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: guy is, he he developed the osteo strong system for
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: for bone density, and he's got he's got an exercise
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: system based on heavy elastic bands. But but he.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: He speaks to.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: One set to fail Yeah, and so what this maximum
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: exertion thing you're talking about is really what is failure?
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: And how can you get more out of failure? Because
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: at those last few reps is where the real work
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: is done that stimulates muscle hypertrophy or for those of
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: you at home, muscle growth, the size of your muscle.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: And and you know, we go to the gym, we
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: try to do one set to failure. We try to
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: hit fifteen to forty reps. If we're hitting failure before
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: fifteen too much weight, if we're hidden, if we can
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: get to sixty reps before we fail too little weight,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: and we try to and this is not my method,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: we can get a workout in a much shorter amount
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: of time. And I've noticed the gains and but I've
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: noticed this failure is different on different days. If I'm
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: energetic and I'm pumped and I'm in the right mood,
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: I can do more than on days where I'm not
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: psychologically there, you know, to get it. And and notice
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: that in her as well. So you're you're so right it.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: You can get so much more out of your physical
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: workout if you if you psych up for the set,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: if you do the uh what what is the uh?
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: The dance that the you know, the Tonguans and Samoans
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: do before a battle.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Or before a gat the haka haka haka.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: You almost have to do your own hakka, you know,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: and get your testosterone pumped. And for women too, you
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: have to they have to stosterone. You've got to pump
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: up and go, you know.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean, like I always say to people
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: that that apart from going to the gym and having
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: to hang out with your mates and talking and having
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: a bit of socializing and getting a bit sweaty and
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: producing a bit of dopamine and doing all those things
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: which are good. Like really, the point of exercises to
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: stretch your body to create an adaptive response. And so
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: you know, strength is an adaptive response. Improved flexibility, range
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: of movement, power, speed, aerobic endurance, muscular endurance, all of
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: these things are physiological responses to doing something to your body. Now,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: when some people like you say, oh, one exercise, one
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: set to that, some people will go Oh, that's not enough.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: And that's because we've been programmed to think that, oh,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: we need to do it a certain way. But the
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: truth is what you're talking about, done the right way,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: one set is going to give more benefit than five
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: sets done the wrong way. Right, And so trying to
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: get your mind out of you know, this, this kind
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: of oh, there's only one way to produce strength gains,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: there's only one way to drop fat. There's only one way.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: And the thing is that not only does everybody respond differently,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: you know, to you know, different bodies and different minds
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: respond differently to the same stimuli, but even the same
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: person responds, as you said, differently to the same stimuli
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: stimulus or stimuli depending on the day, right, And so
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: it's not fuck, it's not a constant. It's dynamic, you know,
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: it's fluid how your body will work, even how your
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: body will work from am to pm in terms of
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: optimal you know, like training time, recovery time. You know,
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Tiff and I have spoken about this many times in
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: terms of when even when my brain works better, Like
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: I know, and people would laugh at this, but if
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: you did an IQ test on me at eight am
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: versus eight pm, I would be considerably dumber at night
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: on a you know, And that's it's not because you're literally,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: broadly speaking dumber, bit because my brain works better at night,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: my body works in the morning. My body. So it's
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out with all of this stuff, how
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: your particular you know, anatomy and physiology responds to these things.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: You know, Yes, so I'm glad you're doing that. But
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: also the other thing I would say to you is
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: like everything it works for a while and then it
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: doesn't work. It needs to be variety and progression. And
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: it's like, you know, that's cool, that's cool. But if
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I train a bodybuilder like a powerlifter, that motherfucker is
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: going to be sore for a week. If I train
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: a powerlifter like a bodybuilder, he won't be able, you know.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: And it's like, and it's not that one is better
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: or the other is better. It's like, well, you know,
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: like some days I will go to the gym and
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: everything will be sets of thirty. Some days it'll everything
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: will be sets of six. It depends, and you get
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: benefit both ways. But when you're constantly stressing your body
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: the same way, same kind of sets and reps, and
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: volume and exercises and recovery time. Eventually you start to plateau.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: So so what you're talking about is great, and also
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: adding as much variety as you can, you know, when appropriate. Yeah,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: that'll be dollars, that'll be ten dollars.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: Well I thought we were bartering since I give the
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: freeze spine consultation.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: All right, all right, well you can have that for nothing.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Hey Gil, great, we love you. How can people find
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: you and follow you? Doc?
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Well? First I got to put a plug in for
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: my son is in your country. He he's going to
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: be participating in the half iron Man triathlon in I'm
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: gonna butcher this. But macquarie, Yeah.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Porlt mcquarie. Yeah yeah, it's on the that's right,
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: it's on the it's on the New South Wales coast.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: So we're in Victoria at the bottom New South Wales.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Sydney slash is above us, and Port mcquarie is above Sydney.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, so.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: It's nowhere near you, But anyone who's listening from that
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: area go go cheer on. Adam he's gonna he's gonna
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: be there. And he went all the way across the
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Pacific two to join your your triathlon and then you
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: can find me here on the You Project once a
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: month until I get kicked off. And that is but
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: I meant re celebrate our E C E L L
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: E B R A T E. We focus on stem cells,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: regenerate medicine, peptides, biohacking, anti aging, non kool aid, consumed
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: sick care, junk. We do health and wellness and longevity.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: Perfect, perfect, perfect. I loved that. That was a good chat.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye off air, but for the minute, Tiff,
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: thank you. Happy birthday again. Tiff Doc said, well, yesterday,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: but she's still celebrating.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: It goes on for the whole month, So thank you.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: I mean for sixty four. You look fucking amazing. Yeah.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: See everyone,