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What is Therapy, Anyway? · Okay, Hear Me Out.

• Rise Therapeutic Services: Welcome to Okay Hear Me Up, where we'd rather torch the status quo than tiptoe around it and bring you the conversations your brain didn't know it needed, but definitely can't escape. We're your hosts, Ashley and Melissa. And if you've ever wondered what happens when two women with zero fucks and a million thoughts get together to talk about mental health and all the ways the world could use a serious reboot, you're about to find out. So buckle up, because we're not here to color inside the lines, we're here to redraw them, question everything, and maybe light a match or two. So let's get started. Listening to this podcast, interacting with us on social media or submitting questions does not establish a client therapist relationship between you and the host. That's a fancy way of saying we aren't your therapist just because you listen to this podcast. Please go get yourself one. Always seek the advice of your physician, therapist, or Or other qualified health professional with any questions you may have regarding a medical or mental health condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it simply because of something you've heard on this podcast. If you think you may have a medical or mental health emergency, call your doctor or go to the nearest hospital, or call 911 immediately. If you are experiencing suicidal crisis or severe emotional distress, please call or text 998 to reach the suicidal or crisis lifeline in the US or Canada. Or contact your local emergency services. Reliance on any information provided by OK Hear Me Out, us, the hosts, or any guest is solely at your own risk. Any case studies, listener questions, or examples discussed are fictionalized or heavily anonymized to protect confidentiality. speaker-0: Okay, welcome back to Okay Hear Me Out. Thanks for coming back for episode two. What is therapy? speaker-1: Are we just starting? What even is it? Whale? speaker-0: I feel like this could go many directions. speaker-1: It's going to go many directions. I mean speaker-0: I feel like it's subjective in some ways. speaker-1: I mean I feel like it depends on what you're coming to work on. Are you traumatized or not? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I mean I feel like I don't know. What is therapy? See I wish we had like see those are gr great questions we could ask clients. Wish we could have clients on here. What is therapy to you? speaker-0: Well and that's why I like it's subjective because then the question then is like what is therapy to each individual, but then at the baseline there is still rules and boundaries around what is therapy. speaker-1: Okay. At the end of the day, therapy realistically is supposed to be a space where you can just talk about your thoughts and your feelings, your experiences, and the whole purpose, right, is for your therapist to be able to hold space without judging. And like not tell you what to do, but kind of guide you. speaker-0: Can offer guidance. Right. speaker-1: Any speaker-0: But the the point is not to be like, here's the solution to your problems. speaker-1: Yeah. Like the goal is to help you find your own solutions while also being like, What the fuck are you doing? when you're doing dumb things. speaker-0: And there's a reason that we don't tell you what to do because that would put us liable. Because if we tell you go break up with your boyfriend or go tell your mom to fuck off and that ends very badly, you get to come back and tell us that blew up on our faces and then we're in trouble. So like there's a reason we don't tell you what to do. But we can say, Hey, here's some ideas. How do you want to handle this? Yeah. And you have autonomy to do whatever the hell you want. speaker-1: Yeah, you do you, boo. Which is why sometimes, you know, you stay with that crappy partner for longer than you probably would have if we actually just I have a speaker-0: Correct. Correct. speaker-1: couple clients you could probably attest to that. That is always fun though, when like not fun, but like funny when you know speaker-0: Hundred percent. speaker-1: You know that they know, probably. what they should be doing, but they don't. yeah. And then like six months later they come in and they're like, So, you were right and you're like, I don't know what you're talking about speaker-0: Uh-huh. And the the urge to say I told you so was real strong. But SR because we can't say I told you so. It's brutal. speaker-1: Yes it is. Yeah. Yeah. When you have a good client though, like a client that you get along with you can. Yeah. Like I told you. I you speaker-0: Well I will say, I mean twelve years later, I don't know if Christie's ever said I told you so. Really? Yeah. speaker-1: Which is fascinating because I feel like Christy one hundred percent has the green light. She could. Hundred percent. Christy, next time you talk to her, tell her I told you so. Legit. Thanks. Love you, Ashley. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean good rapport you totally could. I mean and you could tell your therapist, like, you're welcome to say I told you so. Yeah. speaker-1: Especially if you have good enough relationships where it doesn't come off shady, you know I told speaker-0: Totally. speaker-1: you that if you kept doing this there were might happen. speaker-0: It'll be Consequences are a real thing. Yes. And consequences are often the way we learn and grow sometimes. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I I have a couple of clients and one hundred percent. Like they come back now and they're like, yeah. Remember speaker-0: I learned from that last speaker-1: when you told me that this might happen and I didn't really think that that would happen and it did happen and I didn't like it. I didn't like it at all. speaker-0: Yep, one hundred percent. speaker-1: But it happens like not even just in relationships, right? How many teenagers have we had come in and be like, Whatever, it doesn't matter if I fail this class? I'm like, if you fail this class you have to do summer school. No I won't And then they have to do summer school and they're like, my summer's ruined I guess you won't fail another class, will you? speaker-0: Teenagers are the like epitome of walk around and find out. speaker-1: I told you so? Fuck Yes. All of them all of them are fuck around find out children. speaker-0: that term and getting parents to understand that like that's a nature. I'm like, do you not remember being a teenager? Yeah. Like nine times out of ten, it's this is status quo, guys. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's the hardest part though for clients is clients come in thinking we're just gonna tell them what to do and give them the solution and then they're gonna do the thing and then boom all their problems are magically gonna go away. Yes. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: When in reality that's it's actually not even close to that. It's okay, come come in, sit down, tell me what happened. Let's talk about why it happened. Let's talk about all the different ways in which you could have done it differently. Why did you not do it differently? What were the motivations behind why you did it the way you did it? How many of those were avoidance versus like survival instincts? And then also then what do we do with that information so you don't do it again? Yep. And if you do do it again, how do we somehow therapeutically mm, point out the tiny minuscule difference between what you did this time versus last time. speaker-0: There's growth. Because there's almost always growth in it. every time. Right. Like whether you're thinking about it whether you're thinking about doing it differently and you just didn't, right? Because previously you probably didn't think about doing it differently. Like there's at least awareness. Correct. And there's usually baby steps that happen. speaker-1: So annoying for clients because they're like, Are you effing kidding me? That means that's literally it. Was just that I thought about it this time and now I get to pat myself on the back. Yep. I s what? And it's like, yeah, that's valid, man. I would be I would be mad too. But also, that's speaker-0: A hundred percent. speaker-1: exactly what it is. It is. Is this teeny tiny little baby steps of look at you actually thought about the four different things you could do. You still didn't do them, but at least you thought about them this time. speaker-0: That is what therapy is. speaker-1: Lid that's literally the the foundation of what it is is baby stepping people out of their shitty habits and then baby stepping them into better ones or healthier ones. But like also being able to kind of laugh with them when they don't do it. Yeah. Right? And being able for them like I can't tell you how many clients, I'm sure you have them too, that come in and they're like, I don't even want to tell you this. But I'm gonna But I'm gonna tell you anyways 'cause I have to stay accountable. And then they say it and then they you don't respond the way that they were expecting you to respond. And speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: you like, Well yeah, of course you did that. And they were like, wa what do you mean? You're not mad? I'm like, why would I be mad? Like you did da da da da da. You already did it a little bit healthier than you did last time. Yep. And then all of a sudden they're like, Wait They're not yelling at me. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: They're not upset. They're not gonna leave me. How many how many emails have you gotten from clients after the fact where they're like, so you kinda hurt my feelings, but please don't be mad and please don't leave me. and you're like, my gosh, that's not a thing. speaker-0: My favorite's like leaving a session where they're like confident that they're gonna go do the thing, like break up with the partner or quit the job, or like stand up to the boss, and then they walk in the door for the next session and they're like, I didn't do the thing. And I'm like, Okay, let's talk about that. And they're like, Like they're like anticipating speaker-1: The anticipatory anger. speaker-0: like some sort of punishment or consequence or disappointment. And I'm like, all right, let's talk about it. Like what was the barrier? And like, you know, it's and I'm like, I don't have any stake in it. Like your back. Yeah. Like I want the best from you. But like it's your life. speaker-1: Like keep chattin' about the whys. speaker-0: Yeah. I'm not the one living it. Correct. speaker-1: And I think that's the hard part, is that that's that fine line between like people get upset because they're like you're only you're only my friend because I pay you or whatever. And it's like, well, yeah, that's called the boundary of like this is literally my job. You're paying me to be friendly with you, not be your friend. And I think a lot of people struggle with that difference of being friendly versus being your friend. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: But I also feel like, and I don't know what you would say about this, I also feel like I am more I act like more of a friend in the way in which I treat my clients more than their friends do. Like in the sense of like holding them accountable, like supporting them, but like still being like, What what are you doing? Why are we doing this? Like I f I feel like as a therapist, I do that way more than some of my clients' actual friends do. speaker-0: because we're not taught as a society to do that with each other. speaker-1: Yeah, but like then how do you keep that l blurred gray line? Because for society, right, like that should be what's happening as friends. Like healthy friendships do that. Yeah. But then when you do that in therapy, it like blurs that line between you're my friend versus you're my therapist, you know? So speaker-0: Well, and I think part of that conversation is like this is I'm modeling for you what your friends should be doing. Hundred percent. Right? I'm modeling what this should be looking like in the real world, which is again part of what therapy is. Yes. Is the modeling of setting boundaries, the modeling of accountability, the modeling of XYZ. speaker-1: Healthy conflict communication. speaker-0: Yeah, like all of the things. And so when they go into the real world and not our sweet little bubble that we've created for them, right? Their friends should be doing this. And when they're not, they're like, Hi, I need you to actually say something. Like if you fucking see my partner as being a douchebag, tell me that they're a terrible partner. Yeah. Right? We see that all the time. But they're gonna Exactly. And we see this all the time where they're like, I break up with the person and all my friends were like, thank God, he was terrible. And you're like, Why didn't you say something? Correct, yeah. Well, yeah, because you're not having those conversations. Why? Because we don't teach that level of communication. When we model that, we hope that they start stepping into that in in their actual friendships. Yeah. So, I mean, and that doesn't mean that we don't wish we could be your guys' friends. No. Like speaker-1: Kidding me, there's so many clients I have that I'm like, God, I would totally friend you totally so hard in real life. Which is the worst. speaker-0: Legit It is the worst. speaker-1: it is the absolute worst. speaker-0: The real thing. speaker-1: Yes, it is. Well realistically, I mean, I think the most important thing to know about like what therapy really is, like the purpose of it and what it is, is it's literally meant to be a place where you can practice a singular, healthy relationship so that you can learn those skills and then apply them to your relationships outside of the room, right? Like that's really the basis of it, is because that and that's why having a good relationship with your therapist is 80% of therapy being successful, right? Yes. Is because if you have if you can create A healthy relationship, which let's be honest, most people are who coming to therapy don't have healthy relationships. That's why they struggle, right? If you can create a healthy relationship with your therapist in all the ways, even though you're gonna have like the bumps and the barriers and all the like conflicts, and they're gonna trigger the shit out of you and they're gonna do things that you don't like, that's the whole point. Is they're supposed to do that. Because they're not your friends. They are your therapists. They're meant to push your growing edges essentially, right? And the whole purpose is that once they push those things, you have to learn how to use the skills you've been learning about and then they've been teaching you essentially. And then apply them in that relationship so that you can rewire your nervous system to have a experience a different response than you've experienced out in the real world. Mm-hmm. And then you go out into the real world and you apply those skills to the current people in your support system. And just in case you're wondering, that's why So many people's lives kind of get worse when they go to therapy is because they start to find out how many unhealthy relationships they actually have in their life and how much their people pleasing or their avoidance has been feeding unhealthy relationships, and then all of a sudden, when you build your self-confidence, you start to learn communication and boundary setting. You go to do those in your current relationships, and then those people get pissed off and angry because. speaker-0: They're not getting yeah, they're not getting what they want or need anymore. Yeah. speaker-1: They're you're not you're not staying in your lane essentially. Yeah. You're now wanting to create a new relationship and that's not what they want from you. speaker-0: Yeah, you're not playing the role that they're used to you playing. Yes. Yeah. And it's hard because a lot of people get really discouraged because suddenly their circle of people gets smaller or they're isolating more or they're feeling way more depressed because they're having to set boundaries and people are pushing boundaries. Well speaker-1: It's all that grief, right? Grief of the relationship you thought you had with that person and the grief of the friendship you thought was going to last forever and then all of a sudden you're like, I hate this person now. I don't know what to do with this. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Which is oftentimes why therapy takes so long. A lot of people are like, therapy should only take ten sessions. No. That is so unrealistic. It's speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: it takes ten sessions just to build a somewhat decent foundation with a client. speaker-0: Yep. And when we say like therapy is literally 80 to 85% of the relationship with a therapist, that is actually statistically factual. They have done a ton of research on like what is successful therapy. It is the rapport built with the therapist. It is the safety and the connection built between the client and the therapist. speaker-1: I feel like we need to like find that research because I know we have it somewhere. We do. And just like post it. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean it's even in ATI. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it totally is. But yeah, that's why for a lot of people, when you find a like a therapist that you really vibe with that you feel safe with, they end up staying for years. That's Melissa's twelve year relationship with her therapist. speaker-0: It's my safest relationship. speaker-1: But like there's like a piece of when you go to therapy and you really are doing the actual work, that's hard. most pe for most people it starts out, you go weekly, sometimes twice a week, depending on what you're actually coming in for, right? If you have a lot of trauma, a lot of people come in twice a week. And that's not a bad thing. That's not something to like shame people about. Nope. It's literally that's how that's how much work it takes to stabilize some people. Is that you have to be in a space that makes you feel safe at least two hours a week, which even then is not that much. But having the two hours a week is what stabilizes them and then all of a sudden you drop down to one week. And then a lot of people stay at one week for years. Because they need that consistent safe space to work through all of their stuff. And then all of a sudden they start to stabilize even more and then you drop them down to every other week. And then they drop down to once a month. And then they drop down to like once every couple months, like maintenance phase, right? That's what therapy really is supposed to look like. Right. You're supposed to drop down because the goal is for you to go out into the world and use your skills and then come back and say, This did not work. Or this actually worked really well. Or my God, I hate this person because they made me feel like crap. Or I got fired from my job. We need to go back to weekly. Like that's the whole purpose is it's meant to ebb and flow with life. speaker-0: And for some people, right? Like I have several clients who prefer to stay at a consistent pace, right? Whether that's every other week or weekly, because they use it as a day-to-day sounding board or they use it as just kind of that like catch all. I just need to process what's kind of coming up. Like I don't want my partner to carry everything, etc. And that's okay too, just to have that like sounding board as long as you understand that like your ultimate supposed to be functioning outside of the office. Correct. Right? Like you are still leaning on your supports. You are still having other people to connect and practice your skills outside of the therapy room. speaker-1: Yeah, if you are using your therapist as your sole person, that is you're just recreating all the unhealthy patterns you have in your life. speaker-0: Christie, I need you to not be listening to this episode. speaker-1: I'm not sure. speaker-0: She would be like speaker-1: Christy, earmuffs. Earmuffs, Christy. Basically, speaker-0: Because realistic speaker-1: right? Like the whole purpose is that as you build healthier skills, you're supposed to go build your support system and those people are supposed to take over. Correct. For the therapy, and then the therapy is supposed to lessen. Now that doesn't mean that it's not okay to keep seeing your therapist. Like even if you see them every other week, like that's not unhealthy because that is a healthy part of the support system. speaker-0: Well, and recognizing people with extensive trauma often build such a safe relationship with their therapist, right? Or like I'm a perfect example of that, right? Christy was my first safe attachment in my entire life. Yeah. That I didn't develop until my the end of my twenties. Correct. Right? So thinking about people who have never had a healthy attachment until the end of their twenties, yeah, you're gonna hold on to that connection as tightly as possible. speaker-1: Well yeah, because A the abandonment fear but then also the grief of losing speaker-0: Exactly. So like a lot of people with extensive trauma, their therapist ends up being that first a attachment figure. So they tend to not want to let go and be like, peace, I'm gonna go see you once every other month or whatever. Correct. It takes longer to detach from that safe relationship. Yeah. So speaker-1: Yeah. All I'm not to say, if you go to therapy and you don't feel safe with your therapist, or and and obviously you and this is the other hard part too, right? Is going with your gut. That's the that's another huge piece of it. Correct. Is so many of you out there are people pleasers and you don't want to hurt the therapist's feelings, it's liter okay. It is literally my job to not have feelings. Look at Like my feelings legitimately don't matter. Yep. And that's not totally true. But like, obviously, if a client comes in and is being a dickhead, like I'm allowed to like stand up for myself and be like, no, get out, right? Like you're solid set boundaries in that way. Yes. However, like if you come in and a client tells me, Hey, like, I'm really struggling. If if your immediate reaction as a therapist is to be offended by that, What what are you doing? Go to your own work, speaker-0: Yeah, you need to go to your own work. speaker-1: A and B, like this probably isn't the field for you. Correct. speaker-0: Correct. speaker-1: Because no, that should be the not shouldn't be the last thing that offends you. I get excited when clients come in and they're like, I just don't think this is working. Yeah. I think we need to change something. Or I think I'm like I'm like, yes. But like that to me that means I did my job. Yeah. Like if you can come in and tell me that like I'm not I'm not right for you or that I'm not a good fit for you and then I can turn around and be like, dude, totally, that's fine. Like let me help you find someone who's gonna help you do what you need to do not only does it mean I did my job, that also means that like, hey, I just gave them a reparative experience where them saying, Hey, I don't think this is gonna work out and me not losing my marbles or being defensive like that also gives them permission to do that later. So if you're a therapist and you get upset because a client walks in and is like, I you know what, I think I need a new therapist, yeah, you are part of the problem. speaker-0: Yep. Yep. Stop it. It's not about you. speaker-1: No, stop it. speaker-0: It's like literally not about you. Unless unless you consistently get that in f that feedback. speaker-1: If you consistently get that feedback then yeah, you need you speaker-0: Yeah, you need to do some reflective work. It probably If you are constantly getting fired or you're constantly getting people who drop off your case out of nowhere, do some reflective work. We'll leave that there. Because I will speaker-1: Yeah. Say I mean Melissa has co-facilitated many a session with me. I have said some shit to some of my clients where I'm like, I I honestly don't know if they're gonna come back. And some lo sometimes those people are the ones who say speaker-0: Those are buckets. speaker-1: I I when I first started doing therapy, I legit thought I was like, There's no way anyone's ever gonna want to be my cli's no one's gonna want to be my client. Because I've always gotten the feedback that I'm too mean, I'm too intimidated, I'm too speaker-0: Well me. speaker-1: And my clients love me. Yeah. I sometimes when we 'cause Melissa and I sometimes do like co facilitated groups together. Sometimes her clo because they all know me now, her clients will literally sit down and be like, Ashley, I need you to be mean to me today. Never in my life have I ever had a client or did I ever think a client would request that I be mean to them. Yeah. And obviously when they say be mean, they don't mean like, I'm not actually being an asshole. But like they know that if they ask me to be quote unquote mean, what they're asking for is me to not sugarcoat anything and just say it exactly how it is or what my perspective is on the matter and then they will literally go reflect on it and then they'll come back. How many times have you had that one specific client come and be like, I need you to make me cry? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I need you to be mean and I need you to make me cry because I need a good cry and I know you will poke all the right buttons that will force me to actually stop avoiding the things and make me have an emotional release. And then that client has come back and been like, my god, that was exactly what I needed, and then all of a sudden they have all these different like and then this and then this happened and then it made me think of this and then blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And I think that's another thing about being in therapy. If your therapist is not calling you out on your bullshit, you need a new fucking therapist. speaker-0: Well, and I think that's exactly what I was just thinking, is the idea of like therapy never being challenging. If you are never being challenged, and maybe you're a client that doesn't want that, and that's okay too. But like what are you doing in therapy if you don't want to grow or change? And if that's just like you want a sounding board and a place to like cry and have the feelings, fine. But most people go to therapy because they want to make a change of some kind. If you are showing up at therapy and you aren't being challenged and you're showing up and saying the same things and doing the same things, and your therapist is just like, uh-huh, okay, how'd that make you feel? Right. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Your therapist needs to turn around and be like, Okay, so what are you gonna do different? Right? You're you're saying that you're feeling this, this, and this, and you're thinking this, this, and this. Okay, great. So how are we gonna change that narrative? How are we gonna step into that discomfort a little bit differently this time? How are we gonna XYZ, right? Like there needs to be a challenge. Or like a speaker-1: At what point are you gonna stop living in fantasy land? Correct. And like acknowledge that like the narrative you have in your brand and you keep applying to these people or situations isn't real. Yep. Do it differently. Make a different choice. Yep. One little thing sometimes. speaker-0: Sometimes it's just the smallest nudge. And it you don't have to be a dick. No. Like I think that's the biggest thing is that therapists think that challenging is like too much or too aggress No. Challenging clients can be so gentle, but like The amount of times that I have heard clients come in when we hear it in our groups, where like clients come in and been like, I've been in therapy for years, and my therapists have never, one, either educated us on these things, or two, ever posed questions or challenged me in a way that allowed me to think differently. I'm sorry. What? Like, what is happening? Why? And I think there's just so many people who Who go into this field timid and afraid to challenge people because they're afraid people are gonna leave. Yes, you will have people who will leave because they are scared to get challenged. Let them go. That tells you they're not ready. speaker-1: that but like and this is the mentality I've always taken right is when you have a client come in and you see them after a certain amount of time right this is the hard part is you have to gauge when are they ready to be challenged and sometimes you fuck it up sometimes speaker-0: Perfect. speaker-1: do it way too early. Yeah but that doesn't necessarily mean that what you said was wrong. Yeah. Like just and and that's fine and and the hard part is is and I've had clients I have I have pissed a client off before and they have left and they have come back over a year later To come back to therapy. Yep. So obviously something I said worked. Yep. Or I planted a seed somewhere and they went off to go get services somewhere else and they weren't getting what they needed and they came back. Like and that's the hard part is being a therapist is like we aren't entitled to know why clients leave all the time, and that's the hardest part. However, that doesn't mean that what you did was necessarily bad or wrong. Like you might have just planted a seed in their brain that might come to fruition eight months later because they're gonna continue to do the dumb thing that they're doing or make the decision or avoid or blah blah blah blah blah and then all of a sudden they're like this is what that bitch was talking about. This is what she was freaking talking about. In in my mind, I don't know how you feel about this, I have no problem being the asshole or being the one to b burn the building down. Like if if it if that has to be me, I have to be the sacrificial lamb, and that means I never get to see you again, that's fine. I have no problem being that person because in my mind, my job is not to like constantly protect my relationship with you all the time. Like some sometimes our r like my so maybe my job in that person's life, maybe my part of their journey is to light the match. Yeah. Maybe my job is to plant the seed and then they go off and they find another therapist that might be a little bit of a better fit. And yeah, that therapist might be telling them the same thing I was telling them, but just in a different way. Yep. And all of a sudden all those things click and then the seed I planted is now being watered by a different therapist. I have no problem with that. speaker-0: Yep. Yep. And that's the thing is that we all and I talk about this a lot in like well, individually in groups, but We need to hear things multiple times and in multiple different ways before our brain connects and creates those neuropathways to do things differently, right? So your individual therapist may be saying the things over and over and over again, and they might say it in a totally different way that like rubs you wrong, really just sucker punches you, and you're like, F you, I'm out. And then you go to a new therapist who now is saying it completely different, but it's the same damn thing, and you're like, my god, I totally get it. all the things. And it's still the same thing your last therapist was saying, you just didn't like the way. Correct. Right? Like, speaker-1: Which is a you thing. Like that's a y it's partially a you problem. Like Because the world can't accommodate and can't talk to you one specific way. Yeah. speaker-0: But that's also how our brains just work. It just needs to be said multiple different ways multiple times before our neuropathways can build. And like that is a conversation. I mean, I've had that conversation with Christy where she will tell me things over and over and over again for years before I either connect the dots finally at the right time in my life or I've heard it from her so many damn times and then someone else says it and I connect the dots and she's bitch, I've been saying that for years and I'm like, yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, awkward Right. Like I finally connected it because someone else said it differently. But like our brains need to hear it. Yeah. You just might be the asshole says it just the wrong way that it burns that bridge. And their next therapist says it just the right way that it connects the dots, but it's all the same information. Yeah. speaker-1: Well and and I think I yeah. And that I think that's the hard part of about being a therapist, right? Is that so many people believe that in order to be a therapist you have to like wear the nice clothes and sit up straight and like you have to talk in that really soft, gentle tone and I can totally understand why you feel absolutely not. No, absolutely not. That is not that's not what being a therapist is. As a therapist, you need to go find your thing. And you need to literally show up authentically because y by just showing up as who you are, that's like the best modeling you can do for clients. Is speaker-0: One hundred percent. speaker-1: just be a human being and show up and like I mean none of you you can't see me right now, but I show up like a troll sometimes abs to therapy. speaker-0: favorite word that is speaker-1: I do. I sh I look like a fucking bridge troll sometimes. And all of my clients, especially my teenagers, are here for it. yeah. I can't tell you how many clients start out coming in nice clothes and then they start coming to therapy and they're in their sweats, their sweatshirts, and they look like they're just like, I just couldn't today. And I'm like, so you're showing up authentically today, huh? Great, let's let's all let's toss our shoes off and we just sit on the couch and talk about like all the things. And I think that bleeds into, right? One of the biggest purposes of therapy is you have to be honest. If you don't be honest if you're not honest with us, we're not gonna give you the correct feedback or we're not gonna have all the information. I cannot tell you how many times Melissa and I have consulted on clients where we're like, we're fucking missing something. Something is speaker-0: Yep. speaker-1: something is missing. Yep and they said the math ain't mathing. Yep. And then six months later, she'll sit down and be like, son of a bitch. speaker-0: There it is. speaker-1: I found it. I found the thing and it completely changes the way that we sometimes provide information, sometimes the way we approach a a conversation. Yep. Like be just be honest with us. And I understand the whole like I'm afraid you're gonna judge me. You're not a safe person yet. All of those things. Super valid. Yep. 100%. I get it. And we know and we as therapists, if you have a good therapist, knows that. So when you come in, we're not stupid. When you do your intake session, even the first three or four sessions, we know you're fucking lying to us. We know that you're hiding things, and we know that you are sugarcoating whatever it is that's happening, or you're minimizing and pretending it's not as bad as it really is. Don't we know speaker-0: You're a hundred percent down. speaker-1: that, okay? It that stop it. Like we know, okay? Again, how many clients have you had come in and you're they're like, So remember when I told you that da-da-da? Yeah, it was worse. It was worse than that. speaker-0: My favorite is like I have one client that's like, I didn't have any trauma. My childhood was so great. And then by like session three, I was like, Hold up, back up this train like seven hundred miles. Because that childhood trauma is screaming at you. Yeah, 100%. Like the perspectives that people sometimes have. And that's the thing, is sometimes you actually don't know what you don't know. speaker-1: One hundred percent. speaker-0: Right? Like sometimes it's not even that you're being dishonest. Like you're not you're actually missing the pieces. speaker-1: That's the hardest part about being a therapist too is like so at what point do I tell them? Well like when do I burst that bubble? And speaker-0: And that's I think. speaker-1: I feel bad and I'm like, I hate to like rip speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: the whole world out from underneath you but your childhood sucked ass. Like it was not speaker-0: I'm like you are not functioning well because you were severely abused and you actually don't realize it. Like that's a real thing. speaker-1: Yeah. It's brutal. That's and that's a whole nother thing that I think we d never talk about being a therapist is like the guilt we feel around bursting people's bubbles. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because like it at some point it either needs to be done because i you're not gonna you're not gonna go anywhere. Like that the the the healing is not gonna happen until we acknowledge the awareness and like all the things that needs to happen. speaker-0: Afraid of conflict because your mother screamed at you every day. Like the dots have to be connected somehow somehow. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Yes. All this to say, if you go to therapy and you don't feel safe, you need to tell your therapist that. If you go to therapy and you don't feel like it's a right fit, for the love, please don't ghost us. Just tell us. Hey, I don't think this is a right fit. Can you please help me find another therapist? If it's a good therapist, they'll say, Absolutely, is there anything I can do to do better? What do you need from me? What do you need me to do differently? Right? And if it's not something that they can do for you, they'll they should, if they're good therapists, say, yeah, that's not my style. I'm gonna I I probably won't be able to do that for you the way you need me to. Let me go find you somebody, and then they should give you a list of three people. It's ethically required. BT dubs, if you ever want to leave, they're supposed to give you a list of three different names of people who should hopefully be better fits for you. And then that's it. Like breaking up with your therapist really actually shouldn't be that difficult. speaker-0: No. And you can do it over email, by the way. Yeah. I always encourage my clients. I know that there's a lot of like n poo-poo on the idea of like doing things over writing or text message or anything like that. A lot of people really believe that you shouldn't cop out that way. I'm a big fan of like if it provides you less anxiety, just send a message. Yeah. Just do the thing. Practice the conflict which it shouldn't be conflict, but like Practice that level of communication through writing first. That's how we build the confidence to then do things in person. But just send the message. Hey, I don't think this is a good fit. Or like, hey, this part isn't working for me. Like, I need you to do more of this or less of this. Blah, blah, blah. Right? Like speaker-1: Well here's another thing. I know a lot of people like to think that like, they've been in practice for twenty years. They must be a great therapist. No. I hate to tell you this. Yep. No. The number of years someone has been in practice actually doesn't mean shit about how good of a freaking therapist they are. Legit. Because I'll be totally honest with you, I've been a therapist since 2019. And most of the really good therapists I know have been in practice less than 10 years. Yep. And there are some therapists I know who have been in in practice for less than 10 years and fucking were terrible. Yep. Right. So when you go to find yourself a therapist, it's not about how long they've been in practice. You need to ask them very specific questions. For example, are you trauma informed? Do you have any trauma training? Bare speaker-0: Yeah and I would say speaker-1: minimum. speaker-0: I would say not even trauma informed. I've decided I just had this conversation the other day. It's no longer trauma-informed. Are you trauma trained? Yes. Because trauma informed anybody can put down. They can go read a couple articles and say, I'm trauma-informed. Are you trauma trained? speaker-1: Ask them, where did you get your training from? speaker-0: Where did you get your training from? There is no reason not to ask that question. No. Because if they can't answer you, they actually have no idea what they're probably talking about. speaker-1: a super I I'm a supervisor and I require all of my students, all of my associates to get trauma trained if they're gonna work if they're gonna work underneath me. It's a requirement. And if they're not willing to do it, I will not work with them. Yep. Because being trauma informed and trauma trained is actually like bare minimum in this field now. Like if you don't understand that, then you're gonna do more harm than good. speaker-0: Well, and that's the problem, is that like if you go look at everyone's psychology today, everybody works in trauma, but if you go actually ask them about window of tolerance or how neurobiology works or how the nervous system in the vagus nerve works, none of them can answer any of those samples. speaker-1: Some of can, some of them can. But that's another question I asked. Do you know what the window of tolerance is? Can you explain like how the vegan nerve works? speaker-0: How the Vegas. speaker-1: And if they can't answer those questions and you wanna go work on trauma, do not go see them. Yeah. 'Cause they don't actually know what the fuck they're doing. Yeah. speaker-0: Can you explain to me how regulation helps my my trauma responses? Correct. Like basic trauma questions, because again, the amount of people that we have had join our groups where we're explaining kind of trauma one one and they have said, I've been in therapy for years. I have done trauma training or trauma therapy and no one has ever explained that I'm sorry, you haven't done any trauma ther therapy if you don't know this information. speaker-1: If you don't know what the window of tolerance is and you don't understand like the basics of regulation, then you haven't actually been working on your trauma. No. More than likely. I mean maybe like one in a million, but like speaker-0: Maybe doubtful. You've maybe done unpacking the actual trauma itself, but if you aren't working on regulating your nervous system while unpacking it, all you're doing is re-traumatizing yourself. speaker-1: Hundred percent. Or just avoiding it and dis dissociating girls. speaker-0: But I speaker-1: think and here's the other thing too is I I to g if there are therapists listening to this, who knows? Like I we 100% tell people in our very first session, right? And this is a whole separate fucking thing, timeout informed consent, but like we tell clients in our first session, we will not I will not work harder than you. Correct. So if you're gonna come to therapy and you're not gonna ha you're not gonna wanna talk and you're gonna expect me to lead the session, you're gonna be sorely disappointed. speaker-0: Yeah, I literally tell people like it's one thing to like have off days where like you'd rather shoot the shit or like you know not do some deep work, that's fine. But because not everybody wants to dive into the hard stuff every session, that's fine. But if you are coming to session and it's always like, I don't know, I don't know, I will hardcore call you out on that and be like, what are we doing here then? speaker-1: I know I I'll literally just look him be dead in the eye and be Hey, well when you figure it out, let me know. Yep. And I'll just let him sit in silence for twenty minutes. Yep. speaker-0: Like, I'm not here to do this work for you. I'm not gonna pull it out of you. We have treatment goals. I will reflect on that. Are we working on this? Like, what's the plan? But I'm not going to work hard at speaker-1: You know exactly what you need to talk about when you come in. You're just not ready to talk about it. And that's fine. Just own it. And just be like, I know I should probably talk about this, but I'm not ready to talk about it today And then we'll be like, Okay, great. What do you want to talk about today? speaker-0: Yep. The goal is for you to show up and participate in your own therapy. Correct. You reached out to us. speaker-1: Yes. And the last thing we want to say is in regard to what therapy is and it's not, is that we are held to s so much of a higher standard than normal medical professionals, it's baffling. Okay. So just know when you go do your intake forms, yeah. It's a lot. Because we're actually required to provide you with informed consent. And we're required to have you sign and understand, if you text me, what the possible consequences and implications are and like where your data might be going. Like my informed consent is like ten pages long. It makes people want to vomit. It makes me wanna vomit when I wrote it. But like, if I don't have certain things in my informed consent Then I'm liable for certain things. So sorry, not sorry. Like and not only that, a lot of the things that are in there that we ask you are the exact same things that you have to fill out when you go to the doctor's office. So don't complain, please. it's so irritating when people are like, Why why do you need all this information? I'm sorry. I'm fairly positive that you would have to give ninety percent of this to your fucking doctor when you go to a doctor's appointment. Yep. So stop. Stop it right now. Fill out the fucking form and then just do it. huh. Stop complaining about it. Yeah. It's one of my biggest annoyances. Why is it so long? Why? because I'm required to explain to you how email works apparently. speaker-0: Well, and it's actually comical to me because at doctors' offices they literally just tell you this form or like this signature is for your HIPAA. And they just have you sign they don't even like they're speaker-1: Yes. Don't tell you anything what are speaker-0: they don't even offer you the forms anymore. They're like here just sign for HIPAA and I'm like We would speaker-1: Which is bunkers to me. speaker-0: be like we lose our license if we like holes. Yes. speaker-1: If we gave you a form and we didn't have to like and have a full blown explanation about what the form is on the form and like ha so speaker-0: We would get in so much trouble. speaker-1: much trouble. That would come back and bite us so hard. Yeah. speaker-0: So we again are held to very different standards. Yes, we are So be kind to us when we give you paperwork. Yes. Please Yes. speaker-1: And if have questions, just ask. speaker-0: Always just ask. You don't always ask. Absolutely. And you are welcome to use your intake session to do your paperwork if you want. Yes. You are welcome to email us and be like, hey, I would like to use my session to do this in case I have any questions. That's fine too. Yes. speaker-1: We just give it to you ahead of time because we don't want you to have to waste your entire one hour session on this shit. Correct. So all in all, therapy is supposed to be a safe space. It's supposed to be a place of lack of judgment. And it's supposed to be a place where you're gonna get fucking triggered every now and then and that's good. Yeah, speaker-0: And we love doing that. speaker-1: we love doing it. That's that that's how we know that we're doing our jobs. Correct. So anywho, we gotta go to session now because we are still work. We still have jobs. We still have jobs. I'm coming I'm pretty sure my client is literally in the lobby right now. speaker-0: All right, until next time. Bye. speaker-1: B