Latest / RN's and Red Flags / What Really Happened in Apartment 603? | Ellen Greenberg

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What Really Happened in Apartment 603? | Ellen Greenberg · RN's and Red Flags

0:05
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: I think that's long enough to give a little bit of an intro.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: All right, everybody.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: Hello.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to RNs and Red Flags.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we are showing our faces today by popular demand.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm Amanda.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Ash.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: All right.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: So today we are going to get right into it.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Ashley, I need to tell you about a woman named Ellen Greenberg.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: She was 27, engaged, planning her wedding, and in January of 2011, she was found dead in the kitchen of her Philadelphia apartment.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: The police were treating it as a suicide.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Then her parents were at her funeral, and that is where they learned from the news media that the medical examiner had actually reversed it and called it a homicide.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: What?
1:01
unknown: Yes.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: At her funeral?
1:04
SPEAKER_00: At her funeral.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: From the news?
1:07
SPEAKER_00: From the news.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that just like devastating?
1:11
SPEAKER_00: So um that's how her family described it.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: And um what I will say is that the majority of this information that I got was from a documentary on Hulu.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think it's called Death in Apartment 306.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, the Ellen Greenberg case.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: And while so while the autopsy was happening, the apartment was no longer being preserved as a crime scene.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: A professional crime scene cleanup crew went in, and her fiance's uncle went into the apartment and removed electronic devices all in the span of just a couple of days.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: And police later did get those electronics back.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: But it's like wait a second.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: How did anybody get permission to even go in there?
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, again, yeah, well, that's like a huge part of the story.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: So the the building manager says that she checked with police and was told that the apartment had been released.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: So by the time the investigators came back with a warrant, it had already been cleaned.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: And and here's the number that I want you to remember the original autopsy documented 20 knife wounds.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Wait, wait, 20 knife wounds, yeah.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: And so okay, so 20 knife wounds, and they're calling it a suicide?
2:36
SPEAKER_00: I know that's what I'm saying.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: Like it's actually infuriating.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: I so initially, I'm trying to wrap my head around it.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay, it really is so insane, and I just I truly feel for this family, and and you're gonna hear why.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: So, again, initially, police treated it as a suicide.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: The medical examiner then called it a homicide a couple days later, and the manner of death was then again changed back to suicide by the medical examiner.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: So in 2025, a new medical examiner reviewed the evidence and counted actually 23 stab and incised wounds, yet the official ruling still stayed suicide.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, okay, okay.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: I know.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: So start at the beginning here.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Because I got about a thousand questions for you.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: It's awesome.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't it really is one of those cases where it was actually uh recommended to me to do this case and by one of our viewers.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: And I, as I was like, I watched the documentary and I was researching it, and I just couldn't believe it.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, this this poor woman.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: So this is the story of the Ellen Greenberg death and what happened inside apartment 603.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's her apartment, 603.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember if I said that earlier.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, 603.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: So, okay.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: I know.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Buckle up.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna start from the beginning.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Ellen was a first grade teacher in Philadelphia.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: She was a really cute girl.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, and people that knew her described her as being warm, energetic, and saying that she really cared about her students.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: She lived with her fiance, Samuel Goldberg.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna call him Sam because that's just a mouthful, in the Venice Lofts building in Manayunk.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Manayunk.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh, anyway, so they were planning a wedding.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: Good.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: That's what it's gonna stay.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: They were planning a wedding for later that year.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: So how long had they been together?
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so they had been together for about three years by the time that he proposed.
5:04
unknown: Okay.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: And the major thing that investigators later focused on was that she started experiencing some anxiety in the weeks before her death.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: So it is documented that she had been struggling, especially with work, and had actually sought psychiatric care.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Her psychiatrist was interviewed during the investigation.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Her parents and her friends say that they absolutely did not believe that she had died by suicide.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: So, from what I recall, well, yeah, my research is that she had, I know, she had only she had only had maybe three uh appointments with her psychiatrist.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: Um did she tell anybody like that she ever wanted to die or anything?
5:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh no.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, her family and friends, no.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: The psychiatrist reportedly said that Ellen denied suicidal thoughts, like it's documented that she actually denied them, and that became a point of disagreement in how people interpreted her state of mind.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: The medical examiner's 2025 review also discusses her anxiety and the medication history.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: So the mental health information is like genuinely part of the official record.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, but she's only 27, right?
6:20
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: So she's teaching, uh she's planning a wedding, living in this apartment.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what happens that day?
6:30
SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, just no, it's okay.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: It's just like one of those things, like what you said.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: To me, it reads as she's looking forward to the future.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: She, you know, yes, she's excited, excited, right?
6:42
SPEAKER_00: She might have been experiencing some anxiety, but who doesn't with work, you know, at some point.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, so the date was Wednesday, January 26th, 2011.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: Philadelphia is in a snowstorm.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: They actually even called it a nor'easter.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, Ellen was home, and Sam, her fiance, says that he left the apartment around 4 45 in the afternoon to work out in the gym in their building.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: So that's the account that he gives investigators.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's okay, go ahead.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: So he's not saying that he left the property.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: So he was actually there in their gym.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, he was there in their gym.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: And in the apartment building, uh, they at this time did not have cameras in the halls.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they did have a camera in the lobby.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: So you can see and track his time based on the camera in the lobby.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: Um so he says he's in the building gym, and when he comes back upstairs, he says the swing bar latch on the apartment door is engaged from the inside.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: So imagine the kind of hotel swing bar that lets the door open only a little.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm talking about?
8:00
SPEAKER_00: Like the one that's like the middle, okay.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: So, according to Sam's account, that latch prevented him from getting back into the apartment.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: He was calling and texting Ellen repeatedly, uh, reporting on the records that include message like, open the door and you better have an excuse.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, so you know, the way I looked at it is like when I was reading his text messages to her, if I I'm trying to put myself in that position, right?
8:34
SPEAKER_00: I go to the gym, I come back.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: Now, I I should say he was only gone for between 30 and 40 minutes.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: So it was not a long period of time at all, right?
8:45
SPEAKER_00: And I'm trying to put myself in that position.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: If I came back upstairs and my fiancee isn't answering the door, I mean, he was sending her text after text, like, hey, hello, what are you doing?
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, right.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: And then he was starting to get mad, you know, like you better have an excuse.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Like he was like, What the F, you know, like Yeah, he was pissed.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: And I understand he's locked out.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he just thought she was in the shower.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to put words in his mouth, anyways.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: So at first he was annoyed.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: But now it's like maybe he's getting worried now.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Then he got worried because okay, what he ended up doing was he started to get worried.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: He went downstairs to talk to the doorman of the building.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: His name was Phil Hanton.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: And the doorman said that he he he can't force the door open because of like the building's policy.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: So he couldn't really help much.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, there's also have like an account involving a maintenance supervisor who spoke to them by phone.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: So Phil, the doorman, he adamantly denied that he's like, I did not leave my post.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: It's against the rules for me to leave my post as the concierge.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: He said, You know, the only reason I'm allowed to leave my post is if I'm assisting the police, right?
10:04
SPEAKER_00: So eventually Sam kind of said, Screw it, I'm going in.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: And he forced his way into the apartment.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: So the doorman didn't actually watch him break the latch.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the pieces to know the details that was argued over.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's exactly it because accounts differ on exactly who was present for each moment.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the important point is that Sam reported that the latch was shut or engaged.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: And uh the investigators relied on that when they were evaluating whether or not anyone else could have been inside.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: That was a huge factor, right?
10:50
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
10:51
unknown: Yeah.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, was there another way?
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Was there another way out though?
10:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, the apartment had a balcony, and investigators noted that there was snow outside that appeared undisturbed, and they reported no signs of like a forced entry by someone else.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: And that was part of the reasoning behind the suicide determination.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: So they're kind of taking in all of these facts.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: And something interesting that I actually heard in the doc the documentary that I want to bring up here is the building manager herself was interviewed.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: And in the interview, they were talking to her about the latch being engaged.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: And she said that she has an apartment in that building and that she has actually locked herself out of her apartment in that exact same way.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: She accidentally closed the door too hard and the lock engaged.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: So that was found out down the road.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: So what time did he call 911?
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh around 6:30 p.m.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: So that timing is actually important because it is later than the approximate time that he said he returned from the gym.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: So the records describe the calls, the texts, and the attempts to get into the apartment in between.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know like a minute by minute timeline because honestly, it's it's so debated, like back and forth, and with cameras not actually being in the hallways, it's really difficult to actually establish.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so he gets in.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: He what he finds her and then calls.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, what yes, what's he telling the operator?
12:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know so this was the other part that I found really interesting.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: He tells the dispatcher that he is he's just entered the apartment and that his fiance is on the floor with blood everywhere, is what he's saying.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: The dispatcher tries to figure out where Ellen is bleeding and begins walking him through how to do CPR.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: On the call, he quite literally says, There's just blood everywhere.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's coming from her head.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: And he's trying to describe the scene.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: And the 911 operator is saying, Is she breathing?
13:09
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, I don't know.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I she said, I need you to look at her chest.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, do you see it moving?
13:15
SPEAKER_00: Do you see it rising and falling?
13:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to quote her, but it was something like that.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: And he said, No, no, now that's important, okay, because the dispatcher specifically said, look at her chest, right?
13:28
SPEAKER_00: And he's looking at her chest and says, No, it's not moving, right?
13:32
SPEAKER_00: Wait, did he uh did he say that there was a knife?
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so no, not not right away.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: And that's the part that's crazy because during the instructions that the dispatcher was giving him to look at her chest, then she gave uh instructions to expose her chest.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: He says that's when he discovers a knife protruding from her from her chest.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh so I'm just thinking that was something that right, that was something the investigators brought up.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: Like it's a little fishy that you're being instructed to stare at her chest, and even so much as he's pointed out that he can't take off her shirt because it's a zipper, and then oh god, there's a knife in her chest.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, there happens to be a knife right there.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that is so bizarre.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I like I I it the whole thing was no so strange.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: So, again, it it it sounds really odd in the recorded call, and the Hulu documentary plays the call and interviews people who interpret his reactions differently.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: Ellen's mother was deeply troubled by what she heard.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: Other people described him as being visibly upset that evening, so that was like described.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would want to hear this full recording.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know we should try and put it in the video.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll put it in right here.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, but anyway, the recording became one of the things that Ellen's family revisited over and over, and it's featured in the documentary.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can hear it's in in its entirety.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, so now when police arrived, Ellen was on the kitchen floor near the cabinets, and a kitchen knife was in her chest.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Investigators also noted an unfinished fruit salad.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: So if I recall, she had like half a lemon, uh, like a bowl of blueberries, and there was no suicide note reported.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh, police did not see evidence of a robbery or a struggle that persuaded them that someone had attacked her at this point.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, was anybody saying that this could be a homicide?
15:49
SPEAKER_01: No.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, clearly she wasn't, to me, my opinion, she wasn't planning on doing anything.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she had her snack, an unfinished fruit salad.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, who's thinking about this?
16:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying, I'm just speaking um me personally.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're not gonna make a snack and do like your all the stuff and commit suicide?
16:16
SPEAKER_00: No, I don't know.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: And just make two cents.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: I feel the same exact way.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: This whole thing, it just strikes me, it's so strange.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: So the next morning after she was found dead, Ellen's body was undergoing an autopsy.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, the property manager, Melissa Ware, was trying to deal with the apartment.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: So, according to her account, a member of Sam's family contacted her about retrieving belongings, including clothing needed for the funeral.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: So his family.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: But this is literally the morning after she was founded.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So Ware had said because she was contacted, um, she called the police to find out is the apartment, you know, could it be entered at this point?
17:06
SPEAKER_00: And she was told that there were no restrictions and was given information for a professional cleanup service.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Now, I should disclose that it is a professional crime scene cleanup service, not just like Molly made, right?
17:20
SPEAKER_00: It is a crew that goes in and cleans the apartment thoroughly.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: This is their whole job.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: And where actually said that she made a video of its condition before cleaning.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: So they actually clean the kitchen where she died.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: So, and this again wasn't somebody just tidying up.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: This is a whole crime scene cleanup company.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the documentary on Hulu actually includes Ware's description of workers wearing protective equipment and cleaning that unit.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: The the later lawsuit argues that this damaged the opportunity to collect, yeah, and test physical evidence once the death was switched to a homicide.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: So it's like one of those things where the the property manager, I want to go really back.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: I want to go really back.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: I want to go really finally.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: Really back, really back.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, the property manager, what I thought was why would you record a video?
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Like it said that she recorded a video of the apartment, meaning when it was still a crime scene prior to the cleanup crew coming.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: But she had further described, I just wanted to clarify, she had further described that that's pretty standard when tenants move out or something occurs because they want to show how things are so they can prove what damage.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wait a second, but I get that, but this is a crime scene.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: It's not that you know, Tom, Dick, and Harry moved out.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: No, it is a crime scene that you are regarding as a little weird, but so I don't know.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: Apparently, she contacted her superior who suggested that maybe.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: It was like a whole it was a whole thing, but um, her fiance's family is the one that came in after that, and according to the property manager's account, Sam's uncle, uh, attorney James Schwartzmann and another family member entered the apartment after the cleanup.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Schwartzman took items that included electronic devices, and the family's representatives had said that police had authorized the access.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Wait, so what kind of electronics?
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, accounts of the items include things like laptops, cell phones.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: The devices were later eventually turned over to police.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: But the concern to the Greenbergs that was okay, well, the electronics they didn't vanish, but private individuals had taken them out before detectives secured and documented everything that was on there.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: So did they erase things?
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Were they covering something?
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, what was it?
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Right?
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Because in a standard homicide investigation, you're going through uh everything on these phones, everything, laptops, everything with a fine-tooth comb.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: So it's like then it it's like, was the family trying to hide anything?
20:17
SPEAKER_01: I know that's that's how I took it.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: It's just really odd.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, one thing that I do want to bring up um is that they were Jewish.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh, they're a Jewish family.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: And what I learned about the Jewish faith is that it is very normal to have a quick burial.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, her having a funeral two days after she was found is actually really normal.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I I wanted to bring that up.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, because at first I was like, what in God's name?
20:51
SPEAKER_00: God, they buried her so quick, you know.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, so there is no official established finding that the family, you know, Sam's family and lawyer were trying to hide anything.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: But what we know is that access was permitted, they didn't go without permission, and the devices were removed while the autopsy was underway.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: It's still weird.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: I know it is whatever you want to cut it, it's still freaking weird.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: It there are so many red flags in this case.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: I think red flag number one is I uh like it is hey closing his eyes.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: There's a knife in your chest.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: I swear it's like he was like on with the the 911 operator going like this.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you mean?
21:40
SPEAKER_00: You right.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh, there's yeah, there's a zipper.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's a knife too, right?
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Like there is red flag number one, and then red flag number two, he's yeah, exactly.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: Red flag number two, in my opinion, was like you said, the um Inconsistency with someone that is suicidal and then also making like a fruit salad, like there's fresh blueberries and lemons on the counter, or you know, right?
22:10
SPEAKER_01: It's yes, it's just weird.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: It's I agree, it's just weird.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: It's and again, this is my thought, uh, thoughts.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, that's all.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to me, weird.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: It is.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: It's red flags for me.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm also a suspicious person.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: So um, the original pathologist was Dr.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Marlon Osborne.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: So he's the one that did the autopsy the day after her death.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: He identified numerous wounds and initially classifies her manner of death as a homicide.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: So the police said suicide.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: The medical examiner the next day was like, no, this is a homicide.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: But then detectives pursue a search warrant to go back into the apartment because of the homicide ruling, and the cleaning has already happened.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: So the decision to treat it as a suicide affected what was preserved before the medical examiner.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Because when it's a suicide, it's just like, okay, you know, case closed, uh, opening, open and shut, right?
23:16
SPEAKER_00: So that is the exactly, that is the exact sequence at the center of the family's complaint.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: A homicide investigation began after an apartment had already been released, cleaned, and entered by people outside of law enforcement, i.e.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: his family, right?
23:33
SPEAKER_00: So now picture Ellen's parents, Sandy and Josh, and they're dealing with the sudden death of their beautiful daughter, and they're planning a funeral.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: And the Hulu documentary actually recounts that at the funeral is where they learned from media coverage that the medical examiner had ruled the death a homicide.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it just gets worse.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: What?
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: So you're trying to, you're doing all of this, and at the funeral, it's like uh breaking news.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think it was maybe her cousin spoke me on that, like tapped them on the shoulder, like we need to talk.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's media coverage now saying it's a homicide.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Hello?
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so not appropriate.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine learning that while you're burying your child.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: No, no, and it wasn't like simply, oh, they just gave out another fact about this taste or taste, this case.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: This completely changed everything.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: They've been told that their daughter committed suicide, so that's what they've been hearing, right?
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Now the official classification is homicide.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: So that changes, first of all, everything.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: It changes everything, really.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: It does your thought process surrounding your grief.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: Now you have suspicions, everything, right?
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Did someone sit down with them and explain why this was all of a sudden being changed?
25:08
SPEAKER_00: So the family actually described that they were feeling really frustrated with a lack of answers and transparency.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: They didn't receive a call from the police when this was changed, which I think is so wrong.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and there was more confusion because police had publicly pushed back against the homicide characterization while the medical examiner's finding was being discussed.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: So the medical examiner literally put out it's a homicide, and the police are like, No, it's not.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: That's not what the evidence points to.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: So even the agencies weren't saying the same thing publicly.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: So the public messaging and the medical examiner's initial ruling were not aligned.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: And then in March, the medical examiner's office changed the manner of death back to suicide.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: What?
25:59
SPEAKER_00: What happened between January and March?
26:02
SPEAKER_00: So investigators supplied credit, apparently supplied uh additional information, and there were discussions involving like officials and the original pathologists later said that his revision was influenced in part from information from the police.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: And in a later sworn statement, he said he no longer believed that suicide was the appropriate designation.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: But he was very like um, I don't wanna when I was watching the documentary and his interview, the original Emmy was very flippant almost.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: They were asking, like, well, what did your notes say?
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Why did you change the designation?
26:46
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, I didn't keep notes, I didn't take notes for this.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: And they're like, What do you mean?
26:52
SPEAKER_00: You yourself said this was a really you said this was a really important uh meeting, so you weren't taking notes, and he was he would stop and like kind of think, and then he was like, as I said, I did not take notes during this meeting, and like it was just it was very odd.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: So the person who did the original autopsy changed his own view again years later, years later, and that is one of the reasons that this case kept returning to the headlines.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: So I know, right?
27:24
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about what was documented because this is where the number 20 comes from.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: Remember, I told you to remember that.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: The original autopsy described 20 stab and incised wounds involving the chest, neck, and head.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: And when I say neck, the back of the neck.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Back of the neck, okay.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: So some were on the back of her neck and head, and the knife found in her chest was a kitchen knife.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Were they all deep?
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh no.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: So the wounds did vary.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: Some were relatively superficial compared to others, and some others were deeper.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: The locations and depths became also another major point of debate among the experts.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: The original report also documented bruising.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: So the Hulu documentary spends a lot of time with a retired state police officer investigator.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: His name is Thomas Brennan, and he was brought in by the family and questioned the investigation and the autopsy conclusions.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: So okay.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: So is that where the injuries to the spine come up?
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: So some experts retained by the family.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, go ahead.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: Retained by the family questioned the wounds near the cervical spine and whether Ellen would even have been able to continue making particular movements like after these certain injuries.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: So other experts disagreed uh with those interpretations, and it's one of the most like technical and contested parts of the case.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: So I want to say, like, did they test the tissue, determine what happened?
29:10
SPEAKER_01: But again, I mean, this crime scene was already cleaned up.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: I mean I know, I know.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: There were arguments about the tissue examination and the interpretation of the spinal cord wound to be specific, including whether the finding established an injury that happened before death or after death.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: And those interpretations have been challenged.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I wouldn't tell everybody that's watching that the spine was definitively severed or that any one injury made further movement impossible because the public expert opinions don't agree on that.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: One thing that I will say that they said is that there's like the dura, the dura matter.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: One examiner, one professional said, Well, this wound that was made um could have made her numb, but still keep her ability to move.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then another one said, I think this might have occurred after death.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there were a lot of arguments about that.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: What?
30:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: It's there is so much contested in this case.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: That's wild.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: She also had a what about the bruises?
30:30
SPEAKER_00: She had seven bruises.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: So the original examination by the ME recorded 11 bruises.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: The family and its investigators emphasized the location and appearance of some of the bruising and questioned whether they suggested earlier trauma, because evidently they were in various stages of healing.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: So, as we know from our training as nurses, um, you have bruising in various stages of healing, especially if it's on your limbs as opposed to like your trunk.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: Like your limbs is more excusable, right?
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Because people walk, they bruise like a banana, Amanda.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Shit all over.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: How often my legs like where is this?
31:15
SPEAKER_00: But how I do actually think the same thing.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, are we reaching that age where we're like, where the hell is this from?
31:22
SPEAKER_00: I know.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, anyway.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: So the the part that's crazy though is the 2025 medical examiners review identified 20 more bruises, bringing the documented total number of bruises to 31.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And 20 more bruises founded in that latest.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: How was that missed?
31:46
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'd like to know.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: That's a count from the like the later review.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: So not 23 wounds that were newly inflicted or newly discovered, you know, like right.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: 20 more.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: 20.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: This is not these weren't new, right?
32:03
SPEAKER_00: This was they were here, and I don't know.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: That part is really confusing.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just trying, I'm putting this all together.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, okay, you have all you you committed suicide, you've stabbed yourself, and you have all these bruises.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, did family say, like, oh yeah, she's you know, prone to bruise?
32:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a lot of bruising for someone who's I know exceptionally, she's 27, she's not on blood centers.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: It is odd.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: And based on re-examining the available documentation and photographs, the same review identified also three additional skin perforations, bringing the stab and incised wound count to 23.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: So that's 20 missed bruises, three missed stabs or incisions.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, hold on a sec.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Hold on.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Can you hear my dogs barking?
33:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: Ryan just cut this part out or leave it in.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I don't care.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I just wanted to make sure you couldn't hear my dogs.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: Ryan.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, take it out or don't just make sure that you can't hear my dogs barking in the background.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Leave it in.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Over.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Over.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Hey, it's a part of life, man.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: It's part of life.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: I know.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you might wonder did this change the matter of death?
33:31
SPEAKER_00: No.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: The chief medical examiner, Dr.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Lindsay, how girl, how this was stressing me out.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't even keep track of is it ruled suicide or homicide?
33:42
SPEAKER_00: Suicide or homicide?
33:43
SPEAKER_00: Like that's how back and forth they were, and it was driving me nuts.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: So, Dr.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: Lindsay Simon, she upheld the suicide uh manner of death in October of 2025.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: Her review discussed the lack of defensive wounds, the lack of evidence for another person entering, the scene findings, and Ellen's health history.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: She did acknowledge the unusual distribution of the wounds, but concluded that they could have been self-inflicted.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: And so the original medical examiner disagrees with that then.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, he stated in 2025 that the manner should be something other than suicide.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: So even after a fresh review, there are sharply different professional conclusions on the record.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, and there is another piece of evidence that I want to tell you about.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: Internet searches found on Ellen's computer.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: That the searches were reportedly dated from December 18th of 2010, uh, through January 10th of 2011, which was the month that she passed away.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: What the heck was she searching?
34:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, the forensic material has been described as including phrases such as suicide methods and quick suicide, painless suicide.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Um the Pennsylvania, yeah, the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office later cited suicide-related searches when it was defending the suicide ruling.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: But to me, I'm thinking to myself, now, if I was hypothetically, okay, I'm not alluding to anything, I'm just being hypothetical.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: If I were her fiance and I was planning on killing her and calling it a suicide, wouldn't you be taking her electronic devices and searching that stuff?
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Right?
35:39
SPEAKER_00: Like we've seen that before, right?
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:42
unknown: Yeah.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, was that known when the medical examiner first made that ruling?
35:47
SPEAKER_00: So here's the weird part the original medical examiner's investigation report said that there was nothing on the computer indicating suicide.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: So the forensic computer analysis was reportedly sent to the police on April 1st of 2011, after the death certificate had already been changed back to suicide.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh how convenient.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: So how did the how the hell did those searches come into the case later?
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, when the attorney planted right, that's it just feels weird.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: The medical examiner specifically said that there was nothing related to suicide on the computer searches, yet they didn't even have the computer until April.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: And that was after it's already been in the hands of Sam's family.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: So when the attorney general's office discussed the searches in 2019, it said that it couldn't establish whether the forensic report had been reviewed by the original police or prosecutors.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: So in the documentary, former prosecutor, his name was Guy D'Andr D'Andrea, um, questions why that material wasn't in the case file that he received, which is a legit question.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: It seems like what are the evidence?
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: And so these are the same devices that had been taken out of the apartment.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: And the devices were later recovered by investigators.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: But the family's attorney questioned whether someone other than Ellen could have used that computer, right?
37:20
SPEAKER_00: Like we just talked about.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: And publicly reported records don't identify who physically typed every search.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: So it's just one more thing.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: But okay, but you know, like when you're searching, I mean, there's gotta be like a timestamp on it, right?
37:35
SPEAKER_01: Like when you've searched it.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: There is there is there is, but again, I see what you're saying.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you could have cross-matched it with where her phone was pinging or where, yeah, like maybe unless he was smart and was searching it while she was sleeping or at home, you know, there's just so many things.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but it certainly Yeah, yeah, I know, I know it it really gives us more to consider, um, and it adds a whole nother layer to the evidence timeline.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: So the searches became an important part of the official reasoning years later.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: So while a family continued questioning both the physical evidence and how the digital records were handled, um, Sandy and Josh Greenberg spent years, the parents, seeking a change in the official ruling.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: They worked with lawyers, experts, like private investigators.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: They spoke publicly to the media, they pursued litigation.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: The case received renewed national attention through investigative reporting and later through the Hulu series.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: So only because they went to the media is why they really think they gained any headway and were able to bring Ellen's case back up to the light after everybody slammed the book closed on it, despite all of these like discrepancies and contra contradictions.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe they were trying to get somebody arrested.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, or maybe maybe they wanted us to change the death certificate.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, like their legal efforts included challenging the manner of death determination and how the investigation was conducted.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Their stated goal has been more complete and credible than actually what happened to Ellen.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: So did the courts ever say the original finding was wrong?
39:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, the legal path was super complicated.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: A Pennsylvania Appellate decision in 2023 expressed concern about the investigation, but did not simply rewrite the death certificate.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: So later in early 2025, the city agreed to settle with the family and uh undertake like a new review on the case.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: And reports say that the settlement was like$650,000 to the parents, which is cool, but that doesn't really put them at ease.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: They don't care about the money, you know.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: No, and that's the review that found 23 wounds and 31 bruises.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yep.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: And Dr.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Simon produced a 32-page report in October of 2025, and she still maintained suicide.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: So the family is the family strongly disagreed, and the court later closed the record on the review process after it was completed.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: So it's I mean, what happened after the documentary came out though?
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, the Hulu series uh premiered in September of 2025, and just yeah, it it was it was crazy.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: And just before the new review was publicly released, in January of 2026, ABC reported that the family welcomed the prospect of federal scrutiny of the case, that reporting concerned possible investigative misconduct, and it wasn't a public declaration that a homicide had been established.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: So where where is it now then?
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, based on like they put like updates at the end of the documentary and the latest official review that we checked, uh, the manner of death remains suicide.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: So Ellen's family continues to dispute the finding publicly.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I haven't like found any later outcomes, but based on the end of the documentary, nothing has come of it.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: And and what they basically said at the end of the documentary was yeah, the the state, like the federal, it gained federal interest.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: And again, mostly it was for how it was mishandled, um not so much overturning the ME's, you know, whatever, which is why they got the settlement, but they were really discouraged that like no one actually looked into it.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: If you're saying it was mishandled, why are you not reopening this?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
41:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you think about this case?
41:47
SPEAKER_01: Um I think I think what surprises me the most is it's not even one like particular injury, it's just this it's the sequence.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: The police treat it as a suicide, I know, and then you know, uh the apartment gets cleaned, and then the electronics just leave, and the medical examiner calls it a homicide after all this is done.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: I know it's yep, and I don't know the sequence is what makes this case so compelling because even people who disagree about the manner of death can look at the record and ask, like, why the original investigation you know didn't preserve every opportunity to see like find out what happened, yeah.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: And then the family finding out at the funeral.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's awful, and they were already going through this worst, imagine unimaginable thing.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, and they've spent years, years over a decade trying to get answers.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: You are reliving that every time, every time, and and and I think what makes this even worse is she was an only child, so they quite literally have nothing else.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: Like the mom, her mom was talking frequently about how sad she is that she'll never be a grandmother, and she sees her, you know, Ellen's friends having families of their own.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Even Sam is now married with children, and they have nothing to do with each other.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have nothing to do with each other, so you know.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, I want some answers.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: I want some answers, but I think at the end of the day, it's important to remember she was a young teacher, a daughter, a friend, and she had a whole life, and it seemed good.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: She was experiencing some anxiety, but who doesn't, you know?
43:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: I just put the right steps with that.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: She did.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: So she was on medication.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I mentioned that.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: So she did.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: Did I?
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, she was on I think Zolos.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: No, maybe you didn't.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I didn't.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: You just said like she had anxiety.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: She was medicated, but the toxicology reports didn't show that she was over medicated.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: So she was on a couple of things, and she had even expressed to Sam in text messages at some point that she was starting, was it to Sam?
44:15
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember if it was to Sam or her friend, but basically saying, like, hey, I think the meds are working, you know, I feel I'm starting to feel better.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, again, Hulu's three part documentary is called Death in Apartment 603, What Happened Watch Greenberg.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: And we are also going to uh include our references our and give credit where credit is due.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I would definitely watch it if I were you.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: I I think that I want everybody else to watch it.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or after you listen to this, I want to know what detail stuck with you.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: And please put it in the comments.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: Put it because I have so many questions and I want to know if like everybody else has the same questions.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: What questions?
44:57
SPEAKER_00: What was your biggest red flag?
44:59
SPEAKER_00: What do you really think happened?
45:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then if you have any other cases that you'd like us to cover, just let us know.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for listening to RNs and Red Flags.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Bye.