Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Delphi Murders Suspect: PAGAN CULT 'SACRIFICED' Abby & Libby

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Delphi Murders Suspect: PAGAN CULT 'SACRIFICED' Abby & Libby · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, Libby and Abby, two beautiful
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  Speaker 1: little girls so full of life. Every time I look
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  Speaker 1: at their pictures, you just see life, joy, excitement.
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  Speaker 2: Coming from their eyes. Their smiles.
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  Speaker 1: Those smiles ended.
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  Speaker 2: Their lives cut brutally short.
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  Speaker 1: The two little girls on the Trustle Bridge in Delphi
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  Speaker 1: behind bars a local pharmacy tech Richard Allen, You're never
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  Speaker 1: going to believe, never in a million years. His defense
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  Speaker 1: to the murder of these two little girls. Are you ready?
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  Speaker 1: If you're sitting down, you may need to lay down.
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  Speaker 1: He now says they were ritualistically murdered by the.
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  Speaker 2: Sons of Odin Odin od N like thor, like a
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  Speaker 2: Norse god.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you
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  Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation and serious
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  Speaker 1: exem one eleven. I know it's hard to believe. Take
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  Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at WLS.
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  Speaker 3: Attorneys for this suspect, Richard Allen, filed documenting that their
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  Speaker 3: client is innocent and that members of a white nationalist
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  Speaker 3: group are the ones responsible for killing teenagers Abigail Williams
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  Speaker 3: and Liberty German as part of a quote ritualistic sacrifice.
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  Speaker 3: The defense as the group had a motive because one
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  Speaker 3: of the girl's parents was dating a person of another race.
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  Speaker 3: Attorneys also requested that the media transfer of Allen would
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  Speaker 3: happen from the facility where he is being held. They
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  Speaker 3: say members of the white nationalist group apparently work there
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  Speaker 3: and are threatening his life.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know that I believe any of that.
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  Speaker 1: But what is really interesting me right now is his
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  Speaker 1: defense theory that the sons of Odin.
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  Speaker 2: Now, Odin is.
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  Speaker 1: A Norse god. There are four sons, Thor, Baldor, Vior,
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  Speaker 1: and Valley. What does that have to do with a
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  Speaker 1: murder on a bridge and Delphi? With me an all
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  Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know right now?
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  Speaker 1: But now take a listen to wl WT.
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  Speaker 4: The explosive allegations are part of new court documents filed
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  Speaker 4: by Allen's lawyers explaining why they say someone else committed
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  Speaker 4: the murders.
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  Speaker 5: We are seeing the defense's argument for the case, which
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  Speaker 5: is that the murders were the result of a ritual
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  Speaker 5: sacrifice from a cult of Odinists.
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  Speaker 2: A cult of odiness.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, First to Max Lewis, joining us investigative reporter of
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  Speaker 1: Fox fifty nine, Max, a cult of odinists. What they've
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  Speaker 1: been hiding out in Delphi. I'm going to ask you
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  Speaker 1: a question that I bet you're not ready for. How
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  Speaker 1: many people live in Delphi? How big is Delphi?
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  Speaker 6: It is not that big. There are probably few five
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  Speaker 6: six thousand people, I'd say in the city.
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  Speaker 7: That's probably rough.
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  Speaker 1: Oh oh, hey, I looked it up. Two thousand, nine
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  Speaker 1: hundred and seventy two O licenses. There's yeah, hey, you're
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  Speaker 1: out of here. But wait a minute. Wait, So three
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  Speaker 1: thousand people and somehow there is a sleeper bed of
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  Speaker 1: odinists and nobody knew. Really, hey, I was saying earlier.
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  Speaker 1: I've never the last time I remember being so happy
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  Speaker 1: about a lying defense. Do you remember when Scott Peterson's
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: team came up with Okay? First of all, they said,
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  Speaker 1: what did they One thing was a Hawaiian gang, then
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  Speaker 1: it was burglars, then it was someone took Lacy to
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  Speaker 1: cut baby Connor out of her stomach and raise the
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  Speaker 1: baby as their own. I mean the and I remember
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  Speaker 1: the defense attorneys. A very renowned defense attorney, Mark Gierrogees
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  Speaker 1: would try out the theories with me against me every
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  Speaker 1: night on Larry King. It would play out on National
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  Speaker 1: TV and then if there was a rejection or we
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  Speaker 1: could tear it to shreds, then he'd move on to
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  Speaker 1: the next defense.
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  Speaker 2: Sons of Odin? What is that? Max? What is Sons
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  Speaker 2: of Odin?
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  Speaker 6: Well, it's they. It is essentially a what they say
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  Speaker 6: from what I know from speaking to some expert when
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  Speaker 6: although this sort of came out was that it is
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  Speaker 6: this sort of ancient, uh Nordic religion and these people
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  Speaker 6: are sort of, you know, use it and it's a
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  Speaker 6: white nationalist group.
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  Speaker 1: And right there, right there, Max, You're gonna have to
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  Speaker 1: pick Max Lewis, and I'm gonna give you a moment
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  Speaker 1: to think.
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  Speaker 2: About your answer.
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  Speaker 1: Are they white supremacists, are they white nationalists? Or are
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  Speaker 1: they worshipers of the four Sons of Odin? You said
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  Speaker 1: you needed an expert, and guess what, Max Lewis, I've
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  Speaker 1: got an expert. Doctor Mark Mirabello was with US Professor
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  Speaker 1: of History, Shawnee State University, author of wait for It,
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  Speaker 1: the Odin Brotherhood O d I N the Odin Brotherhood,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Mark Mirabello. I took the twins to Iceland and
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  Speaker 1: we got one of those group tours, super cheap, super awesome.
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  Speaker 1: It was amazing to see the Aurora Borealis, the north stars,
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  Speaker 1: the north Northern lights. And while we were there, I
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  Speaker 1: learned doctor Mark Mirabello that people actually don't look at
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  Speaker 1: me like this Sidney like here it goes.
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  Speaker 2: Actually still believe in the Valkyrie. They believe that they
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  Speaker 2: worship the Norse gods.
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  Speaker 1: There's huge chunks of rocks up on these high mountains
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  Speaker 1: and they believe that those come alive and that they
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  Speaker 1: are trolls or something. And it was really charming and
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  Speaker 1: I loved it, and we actually want to go back
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  Speaker 1: because it was incredible.
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  Speaker 2: Everything we saw was amazing. But you do know that's crazy.
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  Speaker 7: Right, not really, And by the way, I take it back.
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  Speaker 1: As not crazy. It's perfectly normal, perfectly normal.
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  Speaker 2: Go ahead.
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  Speaker 7: Let me clarify that. In fact, in recent years, and
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  Speaker 7: this has been fueled by the Internet, virtually all pagan
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  Speaker 7: traditions in the West are being revived. Celtic gods, Norse gods.
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  Speaker 7: There's also Egyptian gods are being revived, the Roman and
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  Speaker 7: Greek gods, the Slavic gods. There are Druid groups. These
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  Speaker 7: groups are spreading rapidly. In fact, there are some estimates
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  Speaker 7: there are more witches now in England than there are
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  Speaker 7: practicing Methodists. I should mention the group I wrote on,
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  Speaker 7: in particular, the Old Brotherhood is actually a secret society.
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  Speaker 7: So you put me in a space because any member
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  Speaker 7: could not admit he's a but and incidentally, the reason
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  Speaker 7: they're a secret society is because what's happening now?
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  Speaker 2: You mean what I'm saying right now?
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  Speaker 7: Well, what I'm saying is when Americans are involved in
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  Speaker 7: unusual religions such as witchcraft, where you have naked witches
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  Speaker 7: dancing in circles at full moon in the forest, where
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  Speaker 7: you have Odists going and they're also called Asa true
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  Speaker 7: going into the wilderness, offering need and so forth to
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  Speaker 7: their gods and goddesses. John Q public views of them
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  Speaker 7: as weird and goes after them.
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  Speaker 1: So are Odinists? Are they white supremacists? Are they white nationalists?
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  Speaker 1: Or do they actually worship the four Sons of Odin?
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  Speaker 8: Well?
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  Speaker 2: Actually, so, first of all, who is Odin? Just let's
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  Speaker 2: start with that.
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  Speaker 7: Well again, not to get too complex on this, but
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  Speaker 7: it's an Indo European deity of Norse pagans. And in fact,
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  Speaker 7: they don't really just focus on Odin. There are gods
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  Speaker 7: and goddesses, approximately thirty six of them, and they go
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  Speaker 7: back to if you look at the eedas of the vikings,
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  Speaker 7: they are clearly described there, but they resemble traditions and
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  Speaker 7: other Indo European religions such as for example, Odin is
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  Speaker 7: actually Hermes to the Greeks and Rudra Shiva to the Hindus.
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  Speaker 7: But I should mention this notion of your original question.
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  Speaker 7: Are they white nationalists, supremacists and so forth? The movement
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  Speaker 7: is multifaceted. You'll have on the very left, and they
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  Speaker 7: tend to use the term aaru, and they can have
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  Speaker 7: black members in these groups, and they will have gay
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  Speaker 7: marriage in these groups. And then you have on the
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  Speaker 7: extreme right. Some of them are actually white separatists, and
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  Speaker 7: incidentally they're routinely called white supremacists, but they're not. They
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  Speaker 7: don't want to dominate non white people. They don't want
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  Speaker 7: to control as that was the goal to take kk
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  Speaker 7: for example after the Civil War and Jim Crow laws.
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  Speaker 7: They don't want to dominate them, they don't want to
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  Speaker 7: control them. They typically want a white homeland or bastion.
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  Speaker 7: In fact, they want roughly ten percent of the United States,
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  Speaker 7: just ten percent and it's either going to be set
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  Speaker 7: up in Appalachia or it's going to be set up
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  Speaker 7: in the Pacific Northwest.
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  Speaker 2: It sounds like Nazis. Here's an important point, though allegedly pure.
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  Speaker 2: What's the important point.
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  Speaker 7: Well, I was going to say that the notion that
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  Speaker 7: they would kill if you go to the extreme right
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  Speaker 7: wing of this Odnus movement, it would be unthinkable for
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  Speaker 7: them to kill two little white girls. They have convinced
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  Speaker 7: themselves that only eight percent of the entire human race
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  Speaker 7: is now white.
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  Speaker 1: Is there anyone that is one hundred percent pure anything?
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  Speaker 7: Well, here's the point I was trying to drive home.
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  Speaker 7: They're convinced that only two percent of the entire human
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  Speaker 7: race are female. Is a potential child bearing age. So,
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  Speaker 7: in other words, someone under metal pause all the way
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  Speaker 7: to girlhood, and they view girls who are white as
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  Speaker 7: a special resource. Now, if they're going to if they're
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  Speaker 7: not going to commit a ritual sacrificer. But if they
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  Speaker 7: were to kill someone, it would be what they would
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  Speaker 7: call the race trader, the woman dating the non white man.
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  Speaker 7: They would not kill a little girl. And by the way,
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  Speaker 7: o'nis do not commit ritual sacrifices. There are ritual sacrifices
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  Speaker 7: going on in the world some years ago. In fact,
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  Speaker 7: about fifteen three teenage girls in Italy ritually sacrificed and none.
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  Speaker 7: These girls were aged sixteen to seventeen some years ago,
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  Speaker 7: and they were to Satan. They offered the nun to Satan. Also,
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  Speaker 7: roughly the same time, a married couple in Germany, the
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  Speaker 7: Ruda family, sacrificed their friend, stabbed him sixty six times,
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  Speaker 7: a carved a pentagram on his chest, and then had
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  Speaker 7: sexual intercourse in a coffin afterward, again in offering to Satan.
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  Speaker 7: In fact, the one underground group that openly encourages human
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  Speaker 7: sacrifice is called the Order of Nine Angles, and typically
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  Speaker 7: the writings appear you can find them online at Amazon
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  Speaker 7: under the name Anton Long that's a pseudonym. And they
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  Speaker 7: openly encourage members to sacrifice, but they make it clear
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  Speaker 7: they're practicing at kind of hard eugenics. The members must
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  Speaker 7: only sacrifice adults, not children, and they must only sacrifice
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  Speaker 7: what they consider dross or waste. Now, incidentally, this group
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  Speaker 7: is Order of Nine Angles as hostile to egalitarian theory,
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  Speaker 7: quality theories. They're hostile to it's actually they question they
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  Speaker 7: attack the Holocaust, and again they're extremely on the right
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  Speaker 7: and they have levels of initiation. There's roughly seven levels.
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  Speaker 7: They go through difficult ordeals and members are encouraged to
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  Speaker 7: actually as a special right to murder someone as a sacrifice.
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  Speaker 7: They use magical techniques or actual killing techniques. The magical
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  Speaker 7: would be like a voodoo doll, but typically they'll plot
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  Speaker 7: the murder and make it look like an accident. So
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  Speaker 7: there are ritual sacrifices. Henry Call years ago you covered
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  Speaker 7: Mark kilroy murder in northern Mexico. He was a college
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  Speaker 7: student crossed over and he was sacrificed an Apollo magic ritual.
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  Speaker 7: So human sacrifices do occur. Ritual sacrifices do occur, But
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  Speaker 7: I've never actually seen the acca true and the oldness
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  Speaker 7: at any level involved in that.
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  Speaker 2: Time stories with Nancy Grace, you.
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  Speaker 1: Know what, I'm getting so deep in the order of
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  Speaker 1: open right now, and I'm glad that you're telling me
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  Speaker 1: all this because to Frand law Well joining us former
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Deputy States attorney out of Calvert County specializing in sex offense's,
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  Speaker 1: child abuston homicides. The more I learn from doctor Mark
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  Speaker 1: Mary Bellow and again guys. He's the author of the
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  Speaker 1: Odin Brotherhood on Amazon. The more I learned from him
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  Speaker 1: about the Odin Brotherhood frand the more unlikely it is
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  Speaker 1: that this defense will work. Now a twist on the
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  Speaker 1: Odin Brotherhood that, of course the prosecution must understand fully
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  Speaker 1: is that the claim, as I understand it from the
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  Speaker 1: defense filings is the Odin Brotherhood was hijacked by white
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  Speaker 1: nationalists and they are the ones that, according to the defense,
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  Speaker 1: murdered Abby and Libby. But the more we know, I know,
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  Speaker 1: doctor Mark Mirabella was going deathcom forward, deep, deep, deep,
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  Speaker 1: deep into Odinism. But you have to know it in
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  Speaker 1: and out like the back of your hands, so you
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  Speaker 1: can use that knowledge as a shield and a sword
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  Speaker 1: in court when this defense comes up. And the more
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  Speaker 1: Mirabella was saying, the more fantastical it becomes that the
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  Speaker 1: Order of had anything to do with these murdyers.
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  Speaker 9: I agree with that. But when you read their memo,
• 15:29
  Speaker 9: it was mind blowing to me that one of the
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  Speaker 9: guys confessed to his girlfriend, she came forward to the police,
• 15:37
  Speaker 9: another guy confessed to his ex wife, And then there
• 15:41
  Speaker 9: was a man in Georgia who actually saw disturbing images
• 15:45
  Speaker 9: on this guy Holder's Facebook page and he reported it
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  Speaker 9: to the police. Those images were kept, but then the
• 15:52
  Speaker 9: police couldn't find them when they asked for him. It's
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  Speaker 9: just kind of bizarre. And that guy hold her his
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  Speaker 9: son actually dated Abby. It's very If you read that
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  Speaker 9: whole memo, it's mind blowing. They have so many connections
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  Speaker 9: to these.
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  Speaker 1: People, connections, connections. You're right, there are connections. Fran Longwell
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  Speaker 1: and I agree in speaking of confessions to Max Lewis,
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  Speaker 1: investigative reporter, Fox fifty nine, speaking of confessions, what about
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: the ones Richard.
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  Speaker 2: Allen spouted out? Can you tell us about those?
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, he was basically this was in the last filing
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  Speaker 6: that the defense made, the last big filing, and they
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: were trying to get him out of the Westville Correctional Facility,
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  Speaker 6: which is a state prison. It is not a local
• 16:42
  Speaker 6: county jail. He's being held there for extra protection. But
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  Speaker 6: obviously that is quite rare for someone to be held
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  Speaker 6: in a prison where most people have already been convicted.
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  Speaker 6: But regardless, they said that, you know, they were using
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  Speaker 6: this that he has gone crazy in this prison, and
• 16:58
  Speaker 6: he has. They said that he confessed to the killings
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  Speaker 6: multiple times to his wife and to his mother while
• 17:07
  Speaker 6: speaking on the prison phone system with them, and there
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: are recordings of those calls. Obviously we haven't heard them,
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  Speaker 6: they haven't been released, but those do exist.
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  Speaker 2: Max.
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  Speaker 1: Isn't it true that, according to these phone calls, which
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: will can and will be played in court, he confesses
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  Speaker 1: no less than five times to his wife and his mother.
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  Speaker 2: Isn't that true?
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  Speaker 6: Yes, it was several times on the phone name.
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  Speaker 2: And there is the other issue.
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  Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: and this is where I found him.
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  Speaker 2: I found Chris McDonough on YouTube.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: When I was looking at everything possible about Brian Coburger,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: which I still do every day, I found Chris McDonough
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  Speaker 1: doing a very slow drive through the whole area before
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: I could go to Idaho myself.
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  Speaker 2: I saw it the way he.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Presented it, it was amazing and it made so many
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  Speaker 1: of the facts makes sense. Chris McDonough. There's also the
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: issue of the bullet. I don't care who says what.
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  Speaker 1: Anybody can be lying at any given time, and I
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: think one of the reasons they're trying to claim Richard
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Allen is having a mental breakdown behind bars is so
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  Speaker 1: they can get out anything he said to his wife
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  Speaker 1: and his mother under the pretext that he was insane
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: or on meds at the time. Think about that for
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: a moment. But my question to you, Chris mcdonna, is,
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  Speaker 1: what about the bullet found at the scene under one
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  Speaker 1: of the bodies or between the bodies that matches back
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  Speaker 1: to his gun, his longtime gun in his home.
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  Speaker 2: How did that get there? Did the sons of Odin
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: do that too?
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  Speaker 8: Well, that's a great point, Nanci. And it appears that
• 19:00
  Speaker 8: bullet matched the ejection port of them.
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  Speaker 2: Don't start with me McDonough.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Don't tell me it appears, because that's signs that is
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  Speaker 1: not a subjective.
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  Speaker 2: Either it matches or it doesn't match.
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  Speaker 1: And you can look under a microscope the way I
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: have done a million times, and you can see it.
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  Speaker 2: It's like a fingerprint. Either it matches or it doesn't.
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  Speaker 8: Chris, Yeah, it matches. According to the lab that they
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  Speaker 8: sent it to. It's a P two two six forty
• 19:30
  Speaker 8: caliber handgun. And that and of itself. If we also
• 19:36
  Speaker 8: look at the crime scene as a whole, this the
• 19:40
  Speaker 8: crimechine does not have indication of any type of organized
• 19:48
  Speaker 8: structured You know cult like type of problems. This is
• 19:53
  Speaker 8: a sexually motivated crime schine. It's what we call a
• 19:57
  Speaker 8: cluster scene. And you see the the victims are positioned
• 20:02
  Speaker 8: and or staged in certain points, which is part of
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  Speaker 8: a signature, and that can show psychosis and or a
• 20:09
  Speaker 8: psychotic method that was utilized there because it was very
• 20:12
  Speaker 8: cunning at the time. And Alan puts himself there at
• 20:16
  Speaker 8: the same time, his car is seen there on videotape, etc.
• 20:21
  Speaker 7: Etc.
• 20:21
  Speaker 8: And then in confession.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Even the hoodie Chris mcdona he's wearing later the same hoodie.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Time stories with Nancy Grace.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us I profile psychoanalyst out of
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Beverly Hills at Dr Bethany Marshall dot com.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany I.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Had a drug lord who was spotted in surveillance video
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: and he had on AHA Michael Jackson, a red leather
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: pants and jacket. Guess what he wore to court. This
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: was an a surreptitious deal with the c I confidential
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: informant and there he was. You couldn't see his face,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: but you could see his outfit. He wore the same
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: thing to court. That made my job so easy but
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: that said the same hoodie it was that it wasn't
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: a blue jacket, said, yeah, the same jacket like outdoor,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: not Patagonia, but like a Patagonia.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: There's one like that. He was wearing the same thing.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Later, well that was described, And what about the composite.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just there's just so much evidence. And
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: now we hear sons of Odin.
• 21:46
  Speaker 10: And it tells me that there's this deeply ingrained culture
• 21:50
  Speaker 10: in that area where when there's a crime, everybody wants
• 21:55
  Speaker 10: to inject themselves into the notoriety. And in a way,
• 21:58
  Speaker 10: this has become like an urban myth for that area
• 22:01
  Speaker 10: of the world. And I'm sure there's a lot of
• 22:03
  Speaker 10: chatter online about who did it, how and why and
• 22:06
  Speaker 10: were they a member of a cult and if so,
• 22:08
  Speaker 10: what called was it? And it becomes in a way
• 22:12
  Speaker 10: of form of entertainment for a certain group of people.
• 22:15
  Speaker 10: It becomes enlivening, it becomes stimulating, and it becomes so
• 22:19
  Speaker 10: interesting and entertaining to them that they almost want to
• 22:22
  Speaker 10: imagine that they were a part of the crime, just
• 22:25
  Speaker 10: like you and I might go to a movie for entertainment,
• 22:29
  Speaker 10: or we might play with our children, or even just
• 22:31
  Speaker 10: sit around the dinner table and tell interesting stories about
• 22:34
  Speaker 10: our day. This is a very sick group of people
• 22:38
  Speaker 10: that even if they didn't commit the crime, they would
• 22:42
  Speaker 10: put out information as if they did. And the fact
• 22:45
  Speaker 10: that he wore the same hoodie. You know, again, criminals
• 22:49
  Speaker 10: are not the brightest bulbs for one, but number two,
• 22:53
  Speaker 10: if this was a deeply ritualized, sexually motivated killing, everything
• 22:59
  Speaker 10: he wore while he conducted the crime, it's going to
• 23:04
  Speaker 10: be really interesting to him. And in a way, you
• 23:06
  Speaker 10: might say he's wearing his trophy, you know, maybe, like
• 23:10
  Speaker 10: I don't know, a woman goes on a date, she
• 23:13
  Speaker 10: falls in love with the guy. He sleeps with his
• 23:16
  Speaker 10: head on her pillow. She now sleeps with the pillow
• 23:19
  Speaker 10: every night and smells the perfume, reimagining that she's with him,
• 23:23
  Speaker 10: even if he never calls her back. You know, there's
• 23:26
  Speaker 10: gradations of pathology when it comes to holding on to
• 23:29
  Speaker 10: totems and symbols and signs of something that was very
• 23:33
  Speaker 10: interesting and enlivening for you. But I think that's another
• 23:37
  Speaker 10: reason why he has the hoodie, is that that's what
• 23:39
  Speaker 10: he wore during the crime and he loves being involved
• 23:41
  Speaker 10: in it and wearing it, which is kind of sick.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Doctor Manisha Panday is with US chief forensic pathologist for
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Forensic Pathologists in Ohio, board certified and you can find
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: doctor Panday at the forensic pathologist dot com, the forensic
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Pathologists dot com. Doctor Mini Chapande, thank you so much
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: for being with us. It's a real honor to have
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: you on. What would you expect to have been done
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: to the bodies these two beautiful little girls had there
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: been a ritualistic pagan murder, a sacrifice as they would come.
• 24:21
  Speaker 11: So if there was like a sacrifice or some kind
• 24:23
  Speaker 11: of a ritual, they would have some kind of So
• 24:27
  Speaker 11: first most likely what happens is they would probably be
• 24:30
  Speaker 11: killed and then after that post mortem they would set
• 24:34
  Speaker 11: them up in separate like you know, in specific days.
• 24:37
  Speaker 11: And it all depends on which ritual it is they
• 24:40
  Speaker 11: can use like some kind of you know, steaks or
• 24:45
  Speaker 11: some kind of terminology, some kind of you know, lead
• 24:50
  Speaker 11: things on the body, position them in specific ways.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering about the mode of death. We know they
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: weren't shot. We know they were killed with a sharp object.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Isn't that true, Mike?
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: Yes, And this new filing has the most descriptive, most intense,
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: I guess, description of the crime scene that I've seen
• 25:15
  Speaker 6: so far. And it does say that their throats were split,
• 25:19
  Speaker 6: which is what we've known for a long time, just
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: it hasn't been publicly released.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: What more details do we learn about the murders from
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: this defense filing over one hundred and thirty pages.
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: Yeah, the crime the description of the crime scene is
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: what took me back so far. We had known and
• 25:36
  Speaker 6: we had been told that the crime scene was staged
• 25:40
  Speaker 6: in some way and that pieces from the girls were missing.
• 25:44
  Speaker 6: We had known that before, but this one described it
• 25:46
  Speaker 6: in great detail. How the girls were positioned in very
• 25:50
  Speaker 6: long were they positioned well, so Libby was naked and
• 25:56
  Speaker 6: Abby was wearing Libby's clothes. Their clothes were switched, and
• 26:01
  Speaker 6: I believe that Libby's clothes are just sort of missing.
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: They were put at an angle with sort of their
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: feet touching, but their bodies sort of going in a
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: different angle. And then they had sticks that were placed
• 26:16
  Speaker 6: branches or sticks that were sort of placed on the girls'
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: bodies in very distinct patterns. And then the really disturbing
• 26:23
  Speaker 6: thing is that there was some sort of letter painted
• 26:26
  Speaker 6: on a tree in what I believe they said with
• 26:29
  Speaker 6: Livy's blood.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: She yes, Chris mcdonne and go ahead.
• 26:34
  Speaker 8: Yeah. So that's the defenses in the one hundred and
• 26:36
  Speaker 8: thirty six page motion. That's their description of the crime chap.
• 26:41
  Speaker 8: But when we read the arrest affidavit for the defendant here,
• 26:46
  Speaker 8: mister Allen, the clothing is described as being discovered in
• 26:50
  Speaker 8: some of the clothing in the water nearby the body.
• 26:55
  Speaker 8: The second piece of that is the other young girl's
• 26:59
  Speaker 8: clothing is away from her body. So the defense has
• 27:04
  Speaker 8: the clothing on Abby and Libby naked, and the arrest
• 27:10
  Speaker 8: affidavit has the clothing on parts of clothing on both
• 27:15
  Speaker 8: of the girls, and that some of the items were
• 27:19
  Speaker 8: missing and I and there was a lot of speculation
• 27:22
  Speaker 8: in relationship to what those items would have been, uh,
• 27:25
  Speaker 8: you know, and so that there's a there's a real
• 27:29
  Speaker 8: problem here from the arrest affidavit to this motion.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Of how these changed the changed, well, they defend ad
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: or it could have just been in I.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Could jump in.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:44
  Speaker 6: To Chris's point in the the talk of mbellishment, that
• 27:48
  Speaker 6: is a that is a huge part of this new
• 27:50
  Speaker 6: defense filing. Also the defense I don't want to get
• 27:53
  Speaker 6: too deep into it. But the defense accuses the prosecution,
• 27:57
  Speaker 6: actually the chief investigator, I should say, of some really
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: serious uh you know, inconsistencies in this, changing witness statements, uh,
• 28:07
  Speaker 6: you know, embellishing you know, evidence and things in the
• 28:12
  Speaker 6: original Affidavid to search Richard Allen's home, the affidavit for
• 28:17
  Speaker 6: the search one. And so that's a big part of
• 28:19
  Speaker 6: this also, not only the description to crime scene, the
• 28:22
  Speaker 6: alternate defense, but you know, the allegations against the chief.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Investments, allegations of wrongdoing. Yes, speaking of law enforcement. According
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: to Allan's lawyer's LA, law enforcement explored possible links between
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: the killings and some sort of occult early on, but
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: abandoned the theory after speaking to an unidentified professor who
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: refeeded any possible link.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Would that be you, doctor Marbella.
• 28:56
  Speaker 7: No e, fact it was not, but way might interject
• 28:59
  Speaker 7: something red.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Do you know who it was?
• 29:01
  Speaker 7: No? I do not. I do not. And manager eve
• 29:04
  Speaker 7: be regarding human sacrifice, the history really quickly. If it's
• 29:08
  Speaker 7: done a human sacrifice, now, it's not done by hunting
• 29:12
  Speaker 7: and gathering cultures. It's only done in farming cultures. They
• 29:16
  Speaker 7: only sacrifice domesticated animals. And humans, never wild animals. Nobody
• 29:21
  Speaker 7: sacrifices a crocodile. When the belief system is strong, like
• 29:25
  Speaker 7: the ancient well the Inca, they offer the best. For example,
• 29:28
  Speaker 7: we talked about killing little girls. The Inca had the
• 29:31
  Speaker 7: Virgins of the Sun, in which they would sacrifice flawless,
• 29:35
  Speaker 7: beautiful little girls. They could even have a mole on
• 29:39
  Speaker 7: their bodies. They typically were under the age of ten,
• 29:42
  Speaker 7: and they were offered as sacrifices. When the belief system weakened,
• 29:46
  Speaker 7: they start to offer basically criminals and outcasts and POWs
• 29:54
  Speaker 7: when the system weakens. In fact, we still have this
• 29:57
  Speaker 7: will probably surprise your audience. We still have legal ritualized
• 30:01
  Speaker 7: sacrifice the United States today, our capital punishment. And this
• 30:05
  Speaker 7: is not just my idea. Historians to this for years,
• 30:08
  Speaker 7: is an offering to the abstract god of justice, and
• 30:12
  Speaker 7: we will take our outcast and pariahs and our criminals
• 30:16
  Speaker 7: and sacrifice.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: White Hold on right there, doctor Martin Mirabello. Are you
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: suggesting that people that have been executed under the death
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: penalty did not commit a murder?
• 30:27
  Speaker 7: No, No, I'm not saying that, saying they're outcast.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Because when you say we're putting outcasts to death their
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: outcast because they committed a murder and they're in jail.
• 30:37
  Speaker 7: Yes, yes, by the way, what we're doing here. See,
• 30:39
  Speaker 7: if it were a simple killing, they would find him
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: guildy in the court and someone would stand up and
• 30:44
  Speaker 7: shoot him in the head. If But when you kill
• 30:47
  Speaker 7: them ritually, that's called a comedy of innocence by anthropologists.
• 30:50
  Speaker 7: We're pretending we're not actually killing someone. So the district
• 30:54
  Speaker 7: attorney is not really guilty of murder, the judge is
• 30:57
  Speaker 7: not really guilty of murder, and the twelve people. I'm
• 31:00
  Speaker 7: not saying. I'm not taking a stand on capital punishment
• 31:02
  Speaker 7: whether we should do it or not, but we kill
• 31:04
  Speaker 7: them ritually. The Spanish inquisition was also a form of
• 31:09
  Speaker 7: ritual sacrifice.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Has anyone ever accused you of getting out in the
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: ways or getting off the road. Let's lea the Spanish
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: inquisition where it is. I don't have a dog in
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: that fine. I want to focus back, stare us all
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: back to this trial, this upcoming trial, and take a
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: listen to our friends at wl WT.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: The defense says the February twenty seventeen murders were a
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: ritualistic sacrifice.
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: The defense is taking an interpretation of the photos, saying
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: some of the ways the branches were laid over the
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: bodies or symbols were left at the scene points to
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: ruins and Odinism and an Odonistic cult that was sacrificing
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: the worlds, And maybe with prosecutors it's a situation where
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: they feel like they have a different interpretation of what
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: all of that was.
• 31:58
  Speaker 12: Court document that Abby Williams and Liberty German were ritualistically
• 32:03
  Speaker 12: sacrificed by members of a pagan Norse religion called Odinism.
• 32:08
  Speaker 12: The Defense Rights the bodies of both victims had tree
• 32:11
  Speaker 12: branches placed on them in specific patterns, that one had
• 32:14
  Speaker 12: small sticks in her hair to resemble horns or antlers.
• 32:18
  Speaker 12: Odiniss is said to be enamored with Viking culture.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: You were also hearing our friends at w NDU to
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall joining us renowned psychohanalyst, doctor Bethany, how
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: many times have you and I examined the practice of
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: killers who cover up the body, specifically the head, the face,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: the hair, and it can come in many forms. I've
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: told you about one person that killed a young mom
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: and left her naked on the bed but covered her
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: head with a wicker trash basket. We see bodies covered
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: with blankets, with leaves, as in this case, leaves, twigs
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and branches.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Yet somehow the.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Defense is aching out a sign of a sacrifice.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Explained to me.
• 33:10
  Speaker 10: You know, Nancy, how the perpetrator leaves the body is
• 33:13
  Speaker 10: symbolically important. So let's say if they just cover the head.
• 33:17
  Speaker 10: I mean, it could mean different things depending on the perpetrator. Right,
• 33:20
  Speaker 10: you'd have to interview that person and find out their psychology,
• 33:23
  Speaker 10: what they were thinking at the time, if they'll tell you,
• 33:26
  Speaker 10: of course, And in this case, my first thought was
• 33:30
  Speaker 10: he drugged the little girls. You know, they were screaming, fighting,
• 33:33
  Speaker 10: he killed them, then he assaulted them. But this was
• 33:37
  Speaker 10: probably a very dirty scene on the ground, so of
• 33:40
  Speaker 10: course they have twigs in their hair.
• 33:43
  Speaker 9: Secondly, if he was.
• 33:44
  Speaker 10: Trying to cover up their heads or their faces, and
• 33:47
  Speaker 10: I would think it would be more along the lines
• 33:50
  Speaker 10: of something very childlike if you don't see if you
• 33:53
  Speaker 10: don't see me, if I can't see you, you can't
• 33:56
  Speaker 10: see me, like trying to cover their eyes, trying to
• 33:59
  Speaker 10: cover away for himself what he did, holding on to
• 34:03
  Speaker 10: the ritualized objects, the hoodie he wore, whatever he took
• 34:07
  Speaker 10: from the scene for his own sexual gratification. But in
• 34:11
  Speaker 10: terms of how he left them kind of clumsily covering
• 34:14
  Speaker 10: them up, it shows lack of care. You know, the
• 34:17
  Speaker 10: way that they were laughed messy. I mean, I think
• 34:20
  Speaker 10: that the defense is turning something very messy, thoughtless, treating
• 34:27
  Speaker 10: these little girls like they were just garbage. I can
• 34:29
  Speaker 10: just kick them out in the woods and something kind
• 34:32
  Speaker 10: of fancy, like like putting antlers in their hair. You know, Nancy,
• 34:37
  Speaker 10: this guy was a pharmaceutical tech. He organized things, put
• 34:43
  Speaker 10: things on shelves all day long. He knew everybody in
• 34:47
  Speaker 10: that town. I'm sure he had seen these girls come
• 34:50
  Speaker 10: in and out. I'm sure that symbolically they represented something
• 34:53
  Speaker 10: to him. He had thought about this for a long
• 34:56
  Speaker 10: long time, and that this was a client crime of opportunity.
• 34:59
  Speaker 10: They weren't the right place at.
• 35:00
  Speaker 8: The right time.
• 35:01
  Speaker 10: He did not know what he was doing. It was
• 35:03
  Speaker 10: a messy scene, that's all.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: I do see the concern from rand Longwell, which I'm
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: going to go back to doctor Manisha Pandey joining us
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: highly respected forensic pathologist. What do you make of the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: girl's throats being slashed because you don't see that very
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: often as in autopsy. You see a lot in the movies,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: but not a lot as causes of death.
• 35:34
  Speaker 11: So the girl's throats, anytime anyone's throat a slash, that
• 35:39
  Speaker 11: means the person who is killing them is pretty close
• 35:41
  Speaker 11: to the body and to that person. So that just
• 35:46
  Speaker 11: telling me that the killer is really close to the person. Look,
• 35:52
  Speaker 11: you have to be close. It's not that far away
• 35:55
  Speaker 11: person who's you know, who's murdering these girls. And it
• 36:00
  Speaker 11: looks more I mean very very I think it's very
• 36:04
  Speaker 11: aggressive in terms of slashing the throats. And I didn't
• 36:08
  Speaker 11: really read the topsy report, but the fact that they
• 36:11
  Speaker 11: were slashed means that the person was close to them.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: And highly aggressive and highly forceful to do that to
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: two little girls. To Fran Longwell, former Deputy State's Attorney,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Fran you're right if this is to be believed. This
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: is according to the defense lawyers, the teenage son of
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: and Aiden Knite was dating Abby at the time of
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: her murder. According to the defense, I don't know that
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I believe that, but according to them, I mean, Abby
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: was only thirteen years old.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know how much dating was going on.
• 36:52
  Speaker 9: I agree, I think, and I'm wondering if that's just
• 36:55
  Speaker 9: not their way, the defense way of trying to pull
• 36:58
  Speaker 9: this all together, that Abby knew this kid and they're
• 37:02
  Speaker 9: connecting all though, trying to connect those dots. But like
• 37:06
  Speaker 9: you said, I don't know how you explain that that
• 37:08
  Speaker 9: bullet found between the girls that we came from the
• 37:11
  Speaker 9: defendant's gun. I don't know how he's how he is
• 37:15
  Speaker 9: going to explain that. How do you explain that?
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Because all the things you were pointing to Fran are
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: very they're going to be a problem for the state.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I know it's a wacky theory to many the sons
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: of odin But when you piece together the way they
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: have cobbled together one hundred and thirty plus page document
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: about not only a Ledger wrongdoing but on the part
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: of Eli, but this Odinism connection, you get one nut
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: your are and you know they're up the creek without
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: a paddle. So all of this has to be taken
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: very seriously.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: You heard doctor.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Mark Mirabello speaking to Odinism. The thing is if they
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: can can make if they can make the connection that
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: one of the little girls was Day and that's an
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: air quota. He's the son of an aid Knight, that's
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: a fairly substantial connection. I'm not saying I believe that
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Odus killed the girls. I'm saying that's a real threat
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: to the state and they've got to take it seriously.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Of Course, my children, who are fifteen, say so and
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: so's dating. I hold on, what do you mean by dating?
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: What do you think that is? They they talk at
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: skill in they text, that's dating to them. So I
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: got to find out what this really means.
• 38:29
  Speaker 9: Frand Longwell, I think the other problem the state has
• 38:33
  Speaker 9: are these other witnesses that the defense has found, the
• 38:36
  Speaker 9: ex girlfriend, the ex wife. Why would they say these things. Well,
• 38:41
  Speaker 9: they would say these things to get the guys in trouble, obviously,
• 38:44
  Speaker 9: But if this group is so violent and what, they
• 38:47
  Speaker 9: would be putting themselves in danger by coming forward. So
• 38:50
  Speaker 9: that's kind of a weird thing. I thought, Yeah, you
• 38:53
  Speaker 9: know where one of them said she owned the guy
• 38:55
  Speaker 9: that the car, and the car came back with blood
• 38:57
  Speaker 9: on it. And it's just very strange. The whole thing
• 39:00
  Speaker 9: is strange.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Here's a lot of fires for the state to put
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: out in this case. This is not an open and
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: shut trial. We can all agree on that. If you
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: know or think you know anything about the Delphi murders
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: of Abby and Libby seven six, five eight two two
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: three five three five repeat seven six five, eight two
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: two three five three five Goodbye friend,