Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Roger Forsgren on Professional Skills To Rewire the Engineer’s Mindset (#043)

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Roger Forsgren on Professional Skills To Rewire the Engineer’s Mindset (#043) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: My first degree was in liberal arts and in history.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I as we mentioned that we've talked before, um, I got out of uh I graduated and got out of school and couldn't get a really a decent job with a history degree and I had to go all the way back and get an engineering degree.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought at the time I thought, I'm just boy, I just wasted four years on it on that uh history degree.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: But as I progressed through my career at NASA, I used my liberal arts degree and my history degree more than I used my engineering degree because I was managing with, you know, dealing with people.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: And history, I think, is a subject that gives you those critical thinking skills.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: You look at something like how did World War I develop, and then you know, there's not one simple answer.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: There's a variety of different answers and underlying problems that it may have been festering for years and years and decades that just finally come to a head.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when you look at a problem, you have to understand that and look at those critical thinking skills.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: The ability to uh have a liberal arts degree and understand critical thinking skills, and particularly history, not only the history and liberal arts gave me a uh good ability to do critical thinking skills, but also gave me a good ability to write and uh communicate.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I think those were advantages that I had at NASA that other engineers didn't have, and those were opportunities.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think what we use that as an opportunity to kind of teach engineers the importance of those skills.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another edition of Contraminds.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we are speaking to Roger Fosgren.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Roger was the chief knowledge officer of NASA retired.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: He was a director of Academy of Program, Project and Engineering Leadership at NASA.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Roger is also an undergraduate with a liberal arts degree in Arts and Science and a mechanical engineer and a master's in industrial engineering.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Roger is also the author of two books and the most recent being When Graduation is over, learning begins.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Lessons for STEM students and professionals.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Roger in this episode talks about the importance of having a liberal arts background for an engineer.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about the foundational skills needed for successful engineers where he believes that communication skills, decision-making skills, and working with people are as important as number crunching, knowing the math, and ensuring that the projects are done with efficiency and productivity.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Over to my conversation with Roger.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Roger.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for uh joining our uh podcast once more.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's lovely talking to you.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's always fun to talk to you, Swami.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm enjoying I enjoyed our uh experience the last time and looking forward to this one for sure.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the reason uh I thought this conversation made a lot more uh sense uh is because of the new book that you've published, Roger, and uh it really uh you know threw a lot of interesting thoughts on uh you know on the topic that you chosen, which is uh, you know, uh learning begins after graduation for STEM students, right?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh that's an amazing topic that I saw, and that's the reason I quickly wanted to have a uh deep dive and an interesting conversation with you.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure uh it's there are a lot of insights that you're going to throw out of this conversation.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: I hope so.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm looking forward to it.
• 3:59
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• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Over to my conversation with Roger.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Roger, uh when uh when you thought about this topic, what was the uh reason you thought this was extremely important and where do you think uh you know engineers uh you know really need to uh focus after the four years of graduation and you really talk about the fifth year, right?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore uh talk to me about the fifth year.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'd be happy to.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things uh when I took over training at NASA is we kind of realized that our engineers are really good engineers.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: They know their numbers, they know their engineering, they know their science, um, but they had trouble communicating, and they had trouble, I think what is commonly referred to as soft skills, uh, being able to communicate, being able to work on a project team, being able to get along with others along those areas.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: So what I wanted to do, and what we did with the fifth year, is I wanted to see the what the best way we could uh help our engineers uh become better engineers and the process help NASA become a better organization.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I gathered uh probably about a dozen uh engineering professors from around the world.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um and we met at the uh Kennedy Space Center, we actually met at the Astronaut Beach House, which is kind of an isolated beach house.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's been there since the uh Mercury and Apollo days.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: And we just kind of sat there for three days and we talked about uh if engineering were a five-year degree rather than a four-year degree, what would you teach your engineers?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: Because uh you you've been through engineering school and it's you know proverbial learning through a fire hose.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's just you're just overwhelmed with uh uh you know the learning engineering, learning math, learning calculus, learning science.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um but what we wanted to do was see if you had the luxury of a fifth year, what would you teach your your students?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: And as a group, we came up with a uh just a unanimous consensus, and that was better communication skills, um, better ability to uh uh understand yourself as a person and being able to uh work together on a team and feel comfortable working on a team, and also um learning how to uh understand the kind of power that an engineer has and the ethics involved with that power.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: And the the uh just in these general uh and communication skills, of course, how to be able to communicate.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um almost everything is done proceeds forward and advances because you have to have communication.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the and I think to me, one of the uh cardinal benefits that I got out of our discussion was that was when one of our engineers said that that we have to understand that precision with words is just as important as precision with numbers.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that stuck with me forever after that, because it's really critical.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: If you can be the smartest engineer in the world, but if you can't express yourself in a meeting or can't feel comfortable in a meeting, uh, you know, standing up and either you know advancing your idea or disagreeing with somebody's idea.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't have that um self-confidence and that ability to express yourself, you're missing out a lot as being an engineer.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think there's much more to engineering than just numbers and designing uh you know circuits and that kind of stuff.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: There's uh an ability to um really make yourself not only a better engineer, but a better person.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that was basically the whole idea of the fifth year.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: And after after we had the discussion, it lasted three days, and uh we we went back to the drawing board, my team, and we came up with you know a curriculum that would help meet some of these.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'd be honest with you there, uh I'd be wasting my time if if if I tried to train NASA engineers in calculus or dynamics or uh they they know it already.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody would attend the courses.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: But I I think when you um and I'll tell you another thing that we did was uh in the past it's always been called soft skills, and I think that kind of turns people off, kind of turns engineers off.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: They oh soft skills, we know that.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's not a we're supposed to be you know more communicative, we're supposed to listen better and stuff like that.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: But what we did is we changed that to professional skills, and this is something I think is ideal for an engineer, because an engineer has a choice in their career, not just at NASA, but at any organization.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: You can be an engineer and just do the calculus, do the analytic um uh uh surveys and designs or whatever.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but if you want to move ahead in your career, if you want to become a manager, if you want to become a lead engineer or a chief engineer, you really have to develop those professional skills of communication, feeling comfortable working with other people, feel comfortable with yourself, uh, and uh and engineering ethics, making sure that the decisions you make are the correct type of decisions that are um uh designed uh to be effective and to help people.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, uh I would say uh US is really the melting pot of you know building great engineers.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, some of the great innovations of their last hundred years have come from that country.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when you got these professors all over the world to come in and talk about the fifth year and uh talking about these professional skills as you call it, uh why is it that engineers find it hard uh to uh really uh you know uh develop these skills?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Say, for example, the communication skills, the decision-making skills, uh working with people.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, where do you think uh they hit a knot, if I were to call it, or a bottleneck?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh why is it that this becomes a fundamental uh you know block for them?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think it has a lot to do because in my experience, I think engineers have uh an analytical mind.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: And life is very easy for them when it's one, zero, on, off, yes, no, you know, uh where fluid flow can be measured precisely.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, in life, you don't really have that opportunity or you don't have that advantage because uh human beings are probably the uh you get in in order to proceed and design things, you know, your your audience and your it is going to be human beings, and you have to understand your audience before you design something.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: And and human beings are a different breed.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: They're not as simple as machinery and and and they're not as simple as calculus, believe it or not, because you do and then they tend, you know, um engineers are very rational and logical and analytical, and the rest of the world really isn't.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's crazy things happening that don't make sense, but they continue to happen.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's hard for an engineer or somebody with that mindset um to adjust to that or to even um feel comfortable in that type of uh um environment.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think, and I in the book, I think one of the most perfect examples of of that engineering mindset is um Herbert Hoover.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I do a case study on Herbert Hoover, and believe it or not, he was a a president that um was in office in the United States right at the beginning where the Great Depression happened.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: And he's always had a this, I mean, if you mention Herbert Hoover to somebody, they immediately think, oh, he caused the Great Depression.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: He was a disaster.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: But if you study his life, um he was he was an engineer, he was the first engineer to become a president of the United States.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: He was he was a brilliant man.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um he uh was graduated from Stanford University, was uh went out and uh made a fortune, uh, retired at a young age in in uh over in London.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: He was referred to in in mass media as the great engineer because he was he was he was like Elon Musk of today.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um everybody knew his name and everybody respected him.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: In the outbreak of World War I, um the British government and the Allies relied on him to or he was such an incredible organizer, and he organized uh food relief for uh Belgium and northern France and negotiated with the Germans and the British to make sure the ships could get through the um British blockade and that make sure that the Germans wouldn't steal the food once it got there and that would they would uh distribute it to the um you know the population in Belgium.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: He came back to the United States, became Secretary of Commerce, completely reorganized the government, made it much more efficient.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: And everything he touched as an engineer from an analytical standpoint, he would he did a marvelous job.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: And he was known as the great engineer, and he easily won a uh re-elect or uh he won election to become president in 1928.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: But as a president, you have to deal with people, and as a president, you have to deal with politics, and that's the worst, probably the worst side of people is politics.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: And he he he couldn't do it.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: He he couldn't he couldn't lie, he couldn't he couldn't even, he he had a hard time talking to people.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: And what one of his aides said uh when he gave a speech, it's it's like he's reading from a book.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he doesn't even look up.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: He's just but to him as an engineer, he's relaying the information to the people, and that's all he needs to do.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't, he'd never felt the need to go out and hand shake people's hands and and be comfortable with people.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: And because he didn't have these skills, um and then when the Great Depression happened and the stock market crashed, he he looked at it as if it were an engineering problem to be solved.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so he started putting up these different gates and barriers and try to he's trying to apply engineering to economics, and economics is you know just an out you know uh outcome of people and market uh there are no engineering rules to you know to go with economics, and he tried to tried to instill some and call made the uh Great Depression even worse.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: And to make things final, here's the this man that was honored and considered one of the uh uh a great engineer.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: He ran for re-election, and he was up against probably the the most suave, most uh political type of personality uh, you know, in the country at the time, and that was Franklin Roosevelt.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Herbert Hoover thought he went went into this re-election thinking he was going to win again by another landslide, and he lost by the biggest landslide in American history.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: And after that, he was just kind of um ignored and just put out, you know, what they say, put out the pasture.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: Just and uh I I think it's he he never could learn from his experience.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: And uh to me that is uh I mean is a viewpoint or uh uh a view of a person who has magnificent engineering skills, but doesn't have the people skills, doesn't have the professional skills to go along with it.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it was a perfect case study for the book.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: And um I I I think any engineer that kind of can look at Herbert Hoover and and I'm an engineer and I I you know I I can reflect on his experiences and what what he went through.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: And you say to yourself, well, why why why didn't you speak better?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Why didn't you get more uh go out there and shake hands and be comfortable with people?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, if you know he wasn't designed to do that, and he he he just couldn't get over it.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: And um what I wanted to try to do with the fifth year program is to is to look at those potential Herbert Hoovers out there within NASA and teach them that you can become a you know, not only a great engineer, you can become a great leader, but you have to you have to learn these professional skills.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes, and for most engineers, I'll be honest with you, I think the professional skills are harder to learn than the calculus and the math and the dynamics and the thermodynamics and those types of subjects.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: So uh that was the goal of a fifth year program, and and Herbert Hoover was kind of my my model in designing it.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so if I were an engineer listening to this podcast, and I want to develop my skills around the three areas that you talk about, which is really communication skills, decision-making skills, working with people, and uh, you know, talking with precision as you call it, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: The use of words and the uh importance of precision of words.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where do I start?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, I'm already uh, you know, I've already graduated.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is not what I taught, that's what I'm taught in schools.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've always I've always been told you're great in math.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh now I'm uh I'm here, I've graduated, and I'm in this real world where I have to have these skills.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: So where do I start?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if I have to take incremental steps to get better at these skills.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that person that you described is exactly the audience I I uh wrote for in my book.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think engineers at NASA were at a real advantage because uh we had a training program that uh understood that and uh had the funding and had the managerial support, upper management support to develop those skills.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of companies um can't afford that or may not have an interest in doing that.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think the individual has to take it upon themselves to to really uh um become more of a you know you know, not only just use one side of their brain, but be able to use both sides of their brains.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I I think you can you can start by just by um being a little more uh patient with people and understanding that uh people and situations in life, I mean, we all as an engineer, we all like to see things as black and white and you know uh logical and rational, but um they are in the uh test lab and they are on the assembly line, and they are uh, you know, when you're uh on a drafting board or a CAD computer designing something, but in real life um they seldom are, and you have to learn to adjust to that.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the liberal arts are a great way.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh reading some great novels.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: I I mentioned in my book about reading uh Moby Dick.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Is is reading a thousand pages of Moby Dick gonna help an engineer be a better engineer?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, a lot of people would say that no, that's ridiculous.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm wasting my time.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: What do I need to know about hunting whales is gonna help me be a better engineer?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: But what when you put the time into a book like Moby Dick or uh any of the classics, uh I think it gives you a better um uh framework of what life is really like and uh what people are really like and and how you can motivate people and what motivates uh other people, engineers and non-engineers.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I I think you know at NASA we were at a real advantage, and I think our engineers under you know soon understood that and took advantage of our fifth-year program.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: And uh uh, but you know, I realize that some organizations can't afford that.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think a starting point would be uh you know my book, and I think it's you know, I think you can go on from there.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh uh just uh learning how to communicate is probably of all the professional skills.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think that for an engineer, that's probably one of the most important.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: And there's various clubs you can join where you learn how to speak and you learn how to um you know even present a lucid and interesting PowerPoint presentation.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: So there's groups out there that you can you know certainly learn from.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so therefore you see well, so what are you really saying is go read.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Novel, go read a classic, and uh you know when you read them, you realize that uh you know there's nothing in black and white, it's everything is in gray, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, uh that's something that you then start to uh uh probably not even appreciate.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're a little bit shocked, right?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because whenever I read this uh various stories in the book, what I realize is uh you know they are pretty much blind to many of these skills, right?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, this whole engineering mindset, uh, I'm not even aware that uh you know this is something that uh you know the pragmatism and the efficiency mindset uh which you talk about literally uh takes over and you just don't get a sense of it, right?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: In this section, Roger talks about the importance of being precise with your words as much as being precise with your numbers.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Most engineers are precise with their numbers, but they need to develop the skill of being precise with their words.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about the criticality of three skills that an engineer needs to develop.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: One is communication skills, the second being decision-making skills, and the third working with people.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: He believes that if you want to develop these skills, one way is to read novels, look at reading classics, and this he says, teaches an engineer about the world, about the people, how to inspire them, he knows more about the society, and that has an implication on enhancing these professional skills as he calls it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how do I build that in my DNA?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are the things?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, if you ask me, you know, how do I take my notes, how do I communicate, uh, what are the little things, uh, little tips that you will give to people to say, you know what?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Great, you told me to read a novel.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how do I uh you know apply that in my learning?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: How do I apply that in my interactions with people?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain how one needs to go about it?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and you touched on uh something that I consider to be real important.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's an uh an engineer's um attitude towards pragmatic pragmaticism and efficiency.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: We are we are trained from, we're born, I think, from day one, and it's further enhanced and trained us when we're in school.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: Gotta be efficient, gotta save time, gotta save money, gotta make sure that what you do is is the most uh simple, but still the most uh well-designed product that you can have.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: And uh what I think for an engineer, the hardest thing to understand is sometimes efficiency isn't isn't correct, isn't the correct approach when you're dealing with people.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, sometimes you have to waste time.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: You have to sit down and talk to them and listen to them, and they might be going off on a tangent and might not make any sense to you, but you still, you know, you you have to you have to understand that that's just the way they are.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: And you and um if you're you know, if if if all you're thinking about is being pragmatic and being efficient, you're you end up being like Herbert Hoover and you lose that that touch.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think one of the most important things you can do sometimes is waste time, waste time with a family member, waste time with a friend, waste time with with somebody who's uh a customer, you know, get to know them.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: And you you're not gonna uh I I think you know you you go to a gathering or a party or something like that.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Most engineers are thinking, oh my god, I gotta sit and listen to small talk and and waste my time.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: I could be doing something more, you know, more productive.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: But I think the idea is that you get to learn other people's experiences in life, and you get, and if particularly if you're an engineer and your audience and your customers, you have to understand your customers, and one of the best ways to do that is to is to, believe it or not, waste time with them.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you literally are saying uh, you know, uh when you waste time, you discover a lot of things, and uh you discover the uh uh uh you know uh what you call as uh the non uh you know uh you you become far more sensitive to people, is what you are saying, right?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: In this section, Roger talks about the importance of wasting time.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does he mean by wasting time?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: He says the world is not an efficient place, and as an engineer, you should start appreciating and enjoying it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: He says that there are times when everything is not about getting a task done, it's about sitting with people, talking to them about their life, what's going on, and the reason why they are behaving the way they are doing, and that really is about getting deep into a person's psyche, and that helps in getting the tasks done faster.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So learn to appreciate that the world is not an efficient place.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Learn to handle inefficiency, learn to understand that everything is not going from a point A to point B, but you may go to point Z and come back to point B, and you need to start appreciating and enjoying that journey.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so you are saying develop uh the power of understanding the vulnerability of people.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you're talking about?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's absolutely it.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: And uh uh I I think what one of the core things that uh that an engineer in our fifth-year program uh had to understand was that communication is is critical and yet and it could be just in it in emailing and texting.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, most of our communication now not that way is done that way.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'll give I'll give you an example.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: I worked for the NASA chief engineer.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, from a technical standpoint, he was the probably had the held the most responsibility in the entire agency.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um you're talking, you know, space probes and rockets and airplanes and all everything he was involved in.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I could send him an email at two o'clock in the afternoon on a Saturday because something came into my brain, you know, and I just sit in there and I thought, well, yeah, I'm gonna share this.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: By 2 15, I'd get a response, no matter where he was.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um he I I he could be in the headquarters building, and I knew there'd be an important meeting going on that he was either presenting or being part of.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: I could send him an uh an email or a text, and again, he he'd take time out to to respond to me.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I really felt uh that I was part of the team that way.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: And he made me feel part of the team.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: He made me feel important.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: But I can tell you as far as communication goes, and of course you have to learn how to write well and you know grammar, but there's also that timing aspect of it.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: I can send somebody an email, uh, maybe it might be a contractor that's working for me, or uh a coworker, and I don't get a response for two days.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: Or I send a text out and I don't get a response.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm trying to think, well, did I say something wrong in that email?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: Did I upset that person?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: Did I uh you know, and there is there's an aspect of communication when a person doesn't respond, and I think a lot of young people, especially with text messaging, they they'll read a text message and maybe they think, well, I'll get back to it later, and they never do, or they they never respond.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: But the person on the other end has this feeling like, well, you either you what I said wasn't important to you, or I'm not important to you, or uh you disagree with me, or you you're angry at me.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: So um there's like an underlying subtle way of communication um that goes beyond the grammar and the and the uh uh you know the the being able to write well, that I think engineers and I think anybody has to has to understand that aspect of communication, that that's that's critical.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um you you have to understand uh the the the feelings behind you know somebody that's reaching out to you and taking a chance and asking you a question, or and you know, if if you show up in their cubicle or their office two days later and say, Oh yeah, sorry.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was a good email.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, that that doesn't cover it.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think you have to be um you know have that kind of professional skill.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I always admire the chief engineer for always being available.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: I don't care what time of day or night it was, it made me feel important.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: He may have responded to me that he disagreed with something, but I got a response.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So so so what you're really saying is it's just not uh you know how you present your ideas, it's also about the timing, it's also about how you express that empathy for the person on the other side.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: These are very, very important, and therefore, necessarily that's something that uh you have to have a sense of rather than just treat it like a flow chart and uh as an equation or as a formula, right?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you were saying.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's exactly it.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: And you and you can get that kind of empathy when you understand people.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: And when you read the, when you read Moby Dick, or you read some of the classics, or you go out and waste time with people, then you kind of you you become uh a better, you have a better ability to be able to communicate.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So in this section, if you carefully observe, he also talks about the importance of timing and being responsive.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that is an underlying unsaid language of communication between people, and he says if you respond on time and if you are responsive, it sends a message to people that they are a part of the team, and therefore, everything is not about I did this task, and so what's the problem?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have done it, but that's not how people look at relationships.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: People's relationships between each other are a lot more emotional, and you have to appreciate the importance of being responsive and ensuring you spend enough time that has a big implication on building relationships and how work gets done.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you also uh you know uh make a very interesting point, uh Roger, that uh you know uh in the real world, in you know, at work, uh it's the extroverts who really win most of the time, and engineers by nature are introverts, and uh, you know, it's important that they become ambiverts, right?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so that's a very interesting thing that you talk about.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, if I'm an engineer and I I'm able to relate to what you're saying, so as an ambivert, what are the things that I should be doing uh to transform myself from an introvert?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I may not become an extrovert for all you might know, but if I want to become an ambivert, what are the five, six things that I should be doing to start getting a little better being an ambivert?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think the first thing is to understand that being an introvert, there's nothing wrong with being an introvert.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's a difference between introversion and shyness and psychological shyness, you know, where you're afraid of people or where you're but introverts, uh, and a lot of engineers tend to be introverts, there's nothing wrong with that.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: But it is a skill, um, or it is a state of mind that you have to be able to deal with and understand.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: And once you understand yourself as an introvert and understand that um hey, you know, that that's just the way I am, uh, I think that's the first step in becoming an ambivert.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: And being an ambivert, you're never going to really become an extrovert because you never feel comfortable like that.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the introverts, if you're on a project team, an introvert is, I think, some of the best people you can have on a project team because they think before they talk.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: They, if they don't say anything, a lot of times extroverts think, well, you know, this this person's not paying attention, this person's not participating, or something like that.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: But you have to realize that person's thinking it all out before they talk because they want to make sure that they make sense, they want to make sure that they contribute.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: So if you have an introvert, you you know that you have somebody on your project team, or you have several people on your project team that are introverts, you know that the data you get from them is going to be well thought out and it's gonna be thorough, and they're gonna uh understand the problem or the issues that's facing them before they talk.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: And just like there's nothing wrong with the introvert, there's nothing wrong with the extrovert.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: But introvert has to understand that extroverts are wired completely differently.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Where an introvert likes us think before they talk, an extrovert talks and then thinks about it.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: So that and so while they're thinking, they're talking.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: And for an introvert, that's like driving you crazy because you you you need the silence.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: You want to be uh you don't want to be a quiet area where you can think about things.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: And meanwhile, the extrovert next to you is talking, what almost seems like nonsense to you because they're they're trying to organize their their thoughts vocally before they um you know actually think about it.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to learn to deal with each other, and I think that was one of the most important.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: We had a uh course at NASA um designed specifically uh for introverts, and we welcomed with uh extroverts of the course too, just because you're all on a team and you gotta learn how to work together and you gotta learn how to accept each other, and uh uh so you got to find a middle ground.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: You're never gonna become an extrovert, you never want to become an extrovert, um, but you got to become an ambivert.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where you gotta just kind of decide um I have to loosen up a little bit, I have to understand uh the other team members, what they expect of me, and I have to be able to get out there and present my ideas and present, uh, do a PowerPoint presentation, and and if I have to fake like I'm being comfortable, you gotta learn how to do that.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, always in the back of your mind, you can realize that being an introvert, and there's various grades, degrees of being an introvert, but on a sub if you're you know a real hardcore introvert, you still have to become be able to communicate in front of a group, but you also can realize that, hey, you know, this isn't gonna last forever.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: I I can get up and talk to people for an hour or two, uh, get through, get through this discussion, and I'll have my quiet time.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: I can go back and recharge my batteries afterwards, but you'll always have that opportunity to uh uh you know kind of recharge, regather your thoughts and go back into your real self.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: But you have to be able to um step out of your introvert's shoes and get what we call the an ambivert.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: And if you want to be able to be successful, it's not easy.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I'll tell you another thing, especially for an introvert, that the more you do it, the more you're comfortable with it.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: And the and you know, it's it's it's a learned skill, uh, but it is definitely an important skill.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you also uh you know make a very interesting point in a NASA meeting where uh you know, as in these are engineers sitting, uh, you know, it's a very important decision being taken, and uh nobody disagrees, but all of them don't want to do it.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's it uh it's a funny situation, and uh, you know, most of the time you see it in meetings, especially uh, you know, when you're dealing with uh you know an engineering mindset and engineering culture, uh, you know, you don't uh say it openly that you disagree, but you tend to uh you know uh write it off in your mind.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and then what happens, the subsequent impact has serious implications as you write in the book, right?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: So uh how do I overcome that?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not easy, because I may not agree with you, and uh uh it's out of sheer respect that I don't want to say anything, and then finally you end up uh you know not executing it, which has serious implications.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do I how do I balance that, Roger?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: And how did you make that happen at NASA?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think one of the uh classic case studies is that is that the challenger um decision, where I have a writer a case study in the book about it where one of the engineers is he's a young engineer, he's brilliant.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um he knows that uh those O-rings won't survive in that type of cold weather, and they can't should never launch that.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: They need to wait.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: They could wait just five or six hours until the sun comes out and and warns the warns the launch pad a little bit, but you know, management is so determined to move forward with this launch.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he he tries to to to uh you know express his opinion, but obviously he's not successful.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: And the the management tells him to you know take off your engineering hat and put on your management hat.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: And he goes and ends up going along with the decision to launch, and we all know the tragedy that happened.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: He's a young engineer.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: The rest of his life he lived with that every day.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: He he recalled that he was part of the problem, that he was not able to stop that launch.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: And what you know, what what could he have done better?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: What could how could he be communicated his concerns better?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: How could he um you know from a communication standpoint?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_03: How could he communicate better from an ethical standpoint?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: How could he have said, just listen, here's my badge, I quit, I'm not gonna be part of this?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and all these things troubled him.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he was a great engineer.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: He knew the numbers, uh, he knew how to do uh all the analysis that an engineer needs to do.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: He thought like an engineer, and that was um actually that was his kind of his downfall in that situation.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: He he lived to regret it.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you how do you recommend he could have handled the situation uh in hindsight when you look back today?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that that's yeah, speaking in hindsight is always dangerous.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I always and I have talk about that um you know in the book, that it's the easiest thing in the world.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, and I I tell you, be honest with you, um, I think that's a terrifying thing for me.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because I don't know how I would have done, uh how I could have done better.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um maybe get more vocal, maybe maybe uh just try to uh you know be able to express yourself in a way that um you know not hold anything back, say, listen, this is gonna cause an explosion if we do this.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: I know from my analysis that these old rings can't can't uh withstand these type of temperatures.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: And uh the and you're you're taking a risk that is not only endangering um seven lives and seven astronauts, but it's it's endangering uh America's course and space and billions of dollars worth of hardware along those lines.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's something that might you know touch an engineering manager a little bit better.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_03: But um I think that's the terrifying thing is is that you have to understand, and I think he he's a great case study for and for, especially for a young engineer, that you know, you you gotta do your best to speak up.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: And uh you you're you're given an awful lot of responsibility as an engineer, and I think a lot of engineers don't even realize that.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: But as far everything engineering does is revolves around safety and well-being of people, building bridges and things like that, and building you know, rockets and airplanes and yeah, putting all those type of products, is it all revolves around safety, and you have a huge responsibility.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: And um, if you see something that uh you know i is isn't safe or is uh it causes a risk, I I think engineers, you know, another thing is that engineers are always always thinking terms of risk.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: And if you can prove along those lines that you're taking a risk to such an extent that if we do have a problem, it's gonna be much worse than missing the schedule or paying an extra few few dollars to fix a component or taking the time out to uh you know uh repair a uh a faulty sensor or something like that.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so maybe what you're really saying there is uh Rather than look at the efficiency and uh you know the uh the power of the engineering design, uh if you focus on the risk, and therefore if you were to really talk about the risk of the wastage of money, the risk of uh because that's one other way of looking at efficiency, right?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's billions of dollars being thrown into the you know the James Webb telescope.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you're really looking at risks from uh uh you know uh prudence, risk from uh you know uh protecting the company, risk from reputation.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: So these are things which are very soft skills, uh I would say professional skills which then people respect and then say, hey, uh he or she uh is making sense.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I can uh you know when you have that skill, you are able to then move from the rational to the uh you know the irrational side of uh you know uh the human values, and that's something that if you're able to shift your conversation, your ability to uh you know transpose yourself becomes very, very good, right?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: And you you hit on a perfect um uh concept when it comes to risk, and that's the organization's reputation.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: And what once you have a um a faulty product that gets out there, your customers you you might take the risk and think, okay, it I mean, it could be a space shuttle, it could be a TV set, it could be a car.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, if you set something out there that you know might not be the best engineering in the world, and it's part of the steering or something, and and that steering eventually goes bad after a year, and somebody's spent$20,000,$30,000 on your car, on your product, and they're you know, the steering wears out, you lost a customer for the most part.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they'll never buy another car from you.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that there's kind of a hidden cost in that risk that uh an engineer has to be aware of, and especially an engineering manager.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: In this section, Roger talks about ambiverts.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are an engineer, mostly you are an introvert.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing wrong being an introvert, and getting comfortable with working with extroverts is what engineers need to be ready for.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're an introvert, the ability to move a couple of degrees and become an ambivert, where your ability to express when needed, ensuring that you're vocal about your point of view, making that point of view not just in the meeting, but find context even outside the meeting, ensuring that it leaves an impact and therefore helps the organization and the team and the project teams make a decision is important.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're an ambivert, express yourself, your ability to switch between these two states is important.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's a skill that engineers need to learn.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Also, the fact that in meetings, if you develop the skill of being an ambivert, you at least make a point in the meeting saying, you know what?
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: I believe this is a decision that I will go with.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is the way I think this project can be successful, and that is something that you need to develop, and critical for your success in being a leader and also ensuring that the management succeeds in the goals that they've outlined for the organization.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: The English units versus the metric units, and uh it's a brilliant example of uh actually teams working.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, can you tell that story?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: On uh, you know, I think the you know there would be everyday stand-up meetings, there would be status updates, and uh yet there is miscommunication, and yet there is no clear communication between these teams, which led to a huge disaster.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, how how come uh you know how do you uh how do you really stop uh such uh such uh I would say miscommunication or uh you know lack of understanding of you know what one team is doing versus what the other team is doing.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: So uh talk to us about that story, its implications and the learnings.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was the Mars probes back in the 1990s.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's what when NASA decided that they were gonna uh start moving towards uh exploring Mars and spent a lot of money, a lot of engineering on and nobody in the past has ever been able to uh really uh routinely land something on the planet Mars.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's very difficult to do.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: And they uh came up with these probes and they had teams working across the country.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: One team uh was dealing in metric units, and the other team was dealing at English units.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: And for you know, this is a good example.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: That here's this probe is probably the most technically advanced piece of hardware ever built, and it worked.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_03: But it it did it the problem came from not from a difficult technical standpoint, it came from the most simple uh situation that could have been, something that was overlooked, and that was that one team was using metric and one team was using using English units.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um, sometimes you know an engineer or certainly a project manager on some on a team like that has to understand that I think it's a perfect example where engineers get the engineering right.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: They they they designed and built this probe, but they didn't get the communication and the professional skills right and being able to communicate and work together as a team, like you mentioned.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: And uh what happened was the probe uh got to Mars and uh they're getting ready to land.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: And uh the team back at uh I believe it was JPL was wondering, oh, you know, they're they're getting these weird readings, like we should be on the surface by now.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_03: And all of a sudden they lost communication.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: They read and then the team uh uh management team was gathered afterwards and discovered that the flaw was is that one team was using metric and one team was using English, and they overshot Mars and the probe was never seen again, and there's a billion dollars down the drain.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that that goes back to our discussion earlier about um your reputation.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: Up to that point, you know, NASA had landed on the moon, people on the, you know, seven times we sent astronauts to the moon.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: We we developed all this incredible hardware, and all of a sudden um we make a mistake like that.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that in the past when we made a mistake, it was just some kind of incredible technical thing that most people, um, most of the taxpayers in America and the media people didn't really understand.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: They figure, well, it's so incredibly technical and difficult that you know we'll give them a little bit of uh uh leeway on an accident like that.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: But when it comes to something as simple as a you know a third or fourth grader should be able to understand the difference between metric and and English units, um, you you you you end up uh your customer base, your taxpayers all of a sudden um start to lose faith in in your ability to uh um do your job and your reputation suffers.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I go into the case study, NASA became kind of a late-night TV talk show uh joke for several years, and and it took us it took us years and and really uh it's uh uh changing the entire NASA culture in order before we were able to change that.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing uh Raja I found uh very uh I would say provocative and very, very uh impactful was this example of understanding the intent uh that you talk about uh you know in the uh uh you know in uh the Abraham Lincoln's case of uh you know the general having giving discretionary powers to his general, right?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and this discretionary power uh you know almost sends a message of an intent, and the person on the other side understands the intent.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a very important nonverbal method of understanding what my boss wants, what my uh you know, uh manager wants, what my leader wants.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh can you talk to the uh can you talk to me about how important is that and how do you build this uh you know sense of intent between people?
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's a that's a tough question.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: And um I I I think it's particularly if you if you're if you're gonna manage uh a team of engineers, I think it's important that you're an engineer yourself.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because you have not only from the technical standpoint, so you can understand you know the data that they're giving you.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I I think you have to also understand people, and that's the whole basis of why I wrote the book, and that people, even engineers, sometimes aren't um aren't completely rational, that they have their own unique uh outlooks, they have their own unique idiosyncrasies that you have to understand and deal with.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: And uh you have to develop a uh a culture, uh a teaming culture, uh, you know, with your group, with your project team, um, so that they understand what the goal is and what your goals are and what your limits are and what what you'll uh what your uh what their responsibility is, what you expect from them, and what they can expect from you, and your ability to facilitate their job, make their job easier.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: And just so that it it's kind of weird.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: A project team is made up of people and that they're all all completely different machines, but as a manager, you have to be able to make those, you know, like gears work together and make sure those people understand each other.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh we we focused a lot on that at at NASA, how to develop, you know, not only how to develop leaders, but also how to become a good team member.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and that's where it goes back to uh our discussion earlier about um, you know, you you could be uh an introvert, but you could still be a critical part part of a team.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: And same thing, you could be an extrovert and still be a critical part of the team.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's just getting them to be able to work together.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: So uh which uh brings me to a very important point in today's software companies, right?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: This thing about teamwork sometimes is overdone, right?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because you know I'm able to communicate well, I go out for lunches, uh, you know, uh it all looks like uh we are all communicating very well, right?
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: So uh how do you contrast that uh with uh you know being objective yet being people uh you know uh focused?
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do I balance that?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that and that's difficult.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's particularly difficult for an engineer.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: Is uh I'll give you an example.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um when I would have my engineering cap on at a meeting early on, say we had an issue or a problem on a project team, and on Friday I'd go home and I'd think, well, I'm gonna think about this over the weekend.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: And Monday morning I always had a you know a team meeting and where where we'd come up with what we'd make decisions.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: But all weekend it would be bothering me and festering in my mind, I'd be thinking about it.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: And by Sunday night, I had a solution.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_03: This is the way we're gonna do that.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then I go into a meeting and I would I would I would say, okay, you know, here's the problem, what do you think about it?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I would end up defending my own thought.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I I had already made up my mind before I went into the meeting.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think you have to learn how to um prepare yourself to be more much more open and much more understanding.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I another thing uh that I found with project teams is to have a diverse project team is critical.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because if I have, if everybody on my team is a mechanical engineer, when we come across a problem or an issue, we're all going to come up with the same solution.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, basically, because that's our our mindset.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: But if I have somebody that's involved with you know different phases of engineering, of systems engineer, uh, electrical engineer, if I have people involved from finance, if I have people involved that don't know engineering at all, but uh are product testers or things like that, I get a different viewpoint.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: And all of a sudden, you know, you have to have that that's the real strength of having a diverse team, is having different viewpoints.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, the other thing is being a manager that's uh has the ability um to be objective and to listen to these and think, well, maybe, you know, maybe I wasted my whole weekend thinking about this because this this person over here came up with a solution in about five minutes because he's dealt with it, he or she's dealt with this before or understands it the problem more better than I do.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: In this section, Roger talks about intent.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: And intent is about body language, it's about the answer.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Most engineers don't give so much of importance to what is being unsaid or the body language.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: When you give away an unsaid message or a body language to your team, what then happens is they pick up the unset, they pick up the intent behind what you did not say.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: They get empowered and they feel that they just have to go out and do it.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, the need for having to understand sometimes what not to say, what to say, how to say it also ensures how projects, accountability, and responsibilities are taken by teams and they just go out and deliver for success.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that the three skills that Roger talks about helps you build.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: The next one is about overcoming biases.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: When you work with people, you quickly come into a decision, and you know it's almost like an engineering problem where a formula is applied and quickly the solution is thrown.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not how the people around you take decisions.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's a bit of a bias that you have to leave behind.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, he talks about critical thinking.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Always an engineer believes that for a problem there is a root cause, and if you solve the root cause, the problem will get solved.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at it holistically, there are several underlying problems.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you touch one, there are other dependent issues that are there, and therefore, ability to see it holistically that's a skill that you need to work on and start improving as you move up your career.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh, as an engineer, this brings me to the next question.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, you know, how do I uh you know overcome biases?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about several biases, right?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah uh lovely points that you make there.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh walk me through how do I overcome those biases?
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the first thing is to recognize those biases and to understand that um they're they're built into your brain.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: That you that's just the way your brain's functioning.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to kind of sometimes outsmart your brain, and that's you know, to to to sit down and and reflect after uh when you're trying to come to a decision.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: This is why I I always try to as a person, and we also taught this, is to not make snap judgments.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the worst thing you can do because then you're using your emotion most of the time to come up with a okay, this is the way we're gonna do it.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_03: And you're not giving yourself that uh opportunity to sit back and reflect or sit back and listen to other people's viewpoints.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_03: And um I I I think for for under the and there's I think I I probably list um ten of the most common biases that I come across uh in my decisions.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that there's a whole bunch more of them.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_03: But the ones that I I stress in the book, I think, are more um in line with the type of biases that an engineering brain might have.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and therefore uh to overcome those biases, uh how would you overcome those biases?
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: So is it about uh not jumping into conclusions?
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is it about uh you know slowing down?
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it about uh you know sleeping over uh uh you know the uh points that are being made?
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sometimes uh it is also about uh because you have a certain judgment about a person, you have a bias, right?
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore, some of these things come into uh you know play, and therefore uh so the ability to move from objectivity to uh you know uh uh you know I would say uh you know subjectivity to uh being neutral is a very important shift in your brain that you need to keep doing if you really are uh wanting that fifth year uh you know uh I would say uh you know uh graduation that you were talking about, right?
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that is that not very, very important if you really want to be somebody uh as a leader, somebody as a you know great uh engineering leader, is that not important and uh is that something that uh you know I should practice and build as an engineer?
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: Would you uh would you recommend that?
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, and I think what you're getting at is critical thinking skills and being uh having that ability to look beyond the obvious.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think uh in the book I give a coup couple of uh um case studies about that where um yeah you have to look at the entire system, you know, when you're dealing with the problem.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think critical thinking skills uh give you that uh ability, and they're not easy.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think one of the benefits uh that I had my first degree was in liberal arts and in history.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I as we mentioned that we've talked before, um, I got out of uh I graduated and got out of school and couldn't get a really a decent job with a history degree, and I had to go all the way back and get an engineering degree.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought at the time, I thought I'm just boy, I just wasted four years on it on that uh history degree.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_03: But as I progressed through my career at NASA, I used my liberal arts degree and my history degree more than I used my engineering degree because I was managing with, you know, dealing with people.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_03: And history, I think, is a subject that gives you those critical thinking skills.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_03: You look at something like how did World War I develop, and then you know, there's not one simple answer.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_03: There's a variety of different answers and underlying problems that it may have been festering for years and years and decades that just finally come to a head.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when you look at a problem, you have to understand that and look at those critical thinking skills.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_03: The ability to uh have a liberal arts degree and understand critical thinking skills, and particularly history, not only the history and liberal arts gave me a uh good ability to do critical thinking skills, but also gave me a good ability to write and uh communicate.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think those were advantages that I had at NASA that other engineers didn't have, and those were opportunities.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think I we what we use that as an opportunity to kind of teach engineers the importance of those skills.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't want to I don't want I don't want all our engineers to go, I don't want all our engineers to go back and get a history degree.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: I just we just wanted to teach some courses uh in communication and and critical thinking skills.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_03: And to be honest with you, that's why I wrote the book.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was a culmination of um uh so tell me uh Roger, uh my final question uh you know, as I read this book, a very interesting uh point that you make is uh the importance of judgment uh for an engineer.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so how was judgment different from decision?
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and this is a tough one.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_03: I talk about judgment in um the chapter in the book about engineering ethics and morality.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think a lot of times in society we're told, well, don't be judgmental, don't judge a person, don't judge a book by its cover, don't you know, and but when it comes to morality and making a right decision, an ethical decision, you have to draw a line.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to say, I'm not gonna cross this line.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and in order to draw that line in the sand, you have to make a judgment.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to say, um you might not agree with me, but I don't think this is the proper way to go.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and making a judgment is never easy because 50% of the people are most likely not going to agree with you.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_03: But you have this built-in concept within yourself, your conscience that's already making judgments for you.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's can be the way you were raised or the the way you're uh you know, what you're uh how you're raised as far as religion goes and things like that.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_03: You have to make a judgment and you have to you have to stick to it.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so Rajar, uh so if I were an engineer and saying that I have the next uh you know two decades and I'm an young engineer, I've got the next two decades to uh really grow in my career.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what skills do you think uh now having done uh you know a full round of uh you know what you have done what do you what do you what would you recommend to me saying which skills uh are very very important for me and i should go about mastering those skills give me the top three or four well i um i think we hit on them i i uh in our discussion and uh in in the book i think uh communication is critical and you have to learn how to be able to communicate precision with words is just as important as precision with numbers you also have to understand uh and I think a lot a lot of engineers don't understand how much power they really have from an ethical and from a moral standpoint that they they're just looking at hardware they're just looking at numbers and data but that data translates into a product or a system or a process that people are going to use and um there's so many different case studies where uh engineers didn't understand uh just really the kind of risks that they were taking or and people's lives uh were affected by that and then and uh in the book I I talk about Albert Speer um yeah he was always uh I was always fascinated with with uh like I said I majored in history and and even as a young man growing up I read his books and could I for the life of me I couldn't understand how could such an intelligent person how could somebody um just a really a brilliant engineer incredible organizer how could he allow that those skills um you know to to to be used by uh Hitler and the and the Nazis to and so some by some uh estimates he he prolonged the war by a an extra year just because of his his ability to uh you know transform the German economy even while they're getting bombed.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant man.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_03: But as a he he did two things.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think ethics and morality were too difficult for him because he was an engineer and ethics and morality there's no right you know there's no black and white there's always a gray area there that is confusing and I think most engineers just think well I'm not gonna bother with that.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Albert Spear um uh did that and just it's not his concern morality um or ethics he's he's he was he's an engineer he loves doing engineering that's what he's gonna do no matter you know if he has to make a Faustian um commitment to uh you know the devil he he did that just you know to be an engineer and um that's certainly his example is on a grand scale but it's every engineer designing the uh the the brake system for a car or designing the wing of an airplane or designing a you know the electrical circuit for a television set that you have that um you you're you're actually producing magic to most of the world because most of the world doesn't understand how when they turn their computer on how this thing you know lights up and uh can can find my files from three years ago uh on a hard drive somewhere it's all magic to them but to an engineer it's it's just a part of our daily life and that not with all knowledge comes power and and another example in the book is um has to do with Volkswagen and diesel gate you know where yeah uh engineers um use their power to try to um trick the regulators in this country on on diesel emissions and um they they're using their their ability to write software in a way that uh was hurtful you know you know yeah so so therefore what you're really saying is learn the communication skills learn precision with words think of uh you know dealing with grace uh uh you know be ready to accept there is uh you know inefficiency when you manage people uh you know look at uh you know uh critical thinking skills because you know there are no right answers for many of the complex problems that you'll be uh thrown at when you are at work.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so these are things that you start learning after graduation and that's really what I think engineers need to be uh you know cognizant of and then start uh you know applying and developing these skills.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Would that summarise the essence of what uh you know uh you would like to see what engineers build in themselves.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely absolutely Swami you hit you hit the nail right on the head in this section Rajah talks about the difference between judgment and decision and judgment has a certain qualitative aspect to it which is how do I go about finally taking action but as you're taking the action have I considered all aspects before I take the decision for example is it the most efficient way of doing it is this the best way of doing it am I saving enough money if this decision is implemented is it most ethical is it the best way to get this done and am I ensuring that there is ethics in the decision making so a judgment has got several factors and when you are on a project or when you are building a product or when you're you know doing a task and finally you know the outcome is something that you measure several aspects of this as an engineer you need to look at.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just the math math behind it it's not just the number behind it but it's about judging several key aspects of how you look at people how are you dealing with people what's really the culture behind getting things done how does it stand to test in terms of ethics all this is finally how you need to make a judgment and therefore mixing the qualitative and the quantitative aspects is where you differentiate between a judgment and finally taking a decision.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_00: He then summarizes that the great engineers of the future will need to take cognizance of the fact that they are great in their number crunching skills they are brilliant in using the left brain but what's important is these three skills which will become foundational for their success one the communication skills the second is the decision making skills and the last one is working with people your ability to mix the IQ with the EQ will stand the test of time for your success as an engineer in your career thanks a lot Rajar and it's lovely talking to you and as always many of the points that you said were not just points which needed to be noted down but points that needed to be absorbed practiced and you need to really reflect on it and then start you know it must play in your daily behavior.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really what I think you talk about and that's really how it appealed to me.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot and lovely talking to you.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you Swami it's always a pleasure talking to you.
• 1:14:01
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• 1:14:23
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• 1:14:40
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