Latest / The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast / Why Empathy Can’t Be Automated: A Conversation with Gifty Enright - EP13

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Why Empathy Can’t Be Automated: A Conversation with Gifty Enright - EP13 · The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast

• 0:02
  Trust to some bodied empathy, some bodies, and you need to
• 0:06
  work on that and then put the technology on top of it.
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  Have you ever wondered why, like in a world where we're using
• 0:15
  technology on a daily basis, we still struggle to integrate it
• 0:19
  in a way that we feel truly seen with it?
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  And if so, then welcome to the In Between Trust podcast.
• 0:25
  In this episode, I dive into exactly this topic together with
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  my guest, Gifty Enright. She's an author, speaker, and a
• 0:32
  women's leadership expert whose work explores the emotional load
• 0:36
  we carry at work and what it truly means to lead well in a
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  fast moving environment. She reveals in our conversation
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  the topic of invisible emotional labor that particularly holds
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  organizations together, even though it's almost never
• 0:53
  measured through KPI's, for example.
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  And she draws a powerful line between trust and embodiment.
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  Because our bodies often know the truth long before our minds
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  catch up. And that empathy, we cannot be
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  outsourced to technology, no matter how advanced it will
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  become. Hello Gifty, and welcome to In
• 1:14
  Between Trust podcast. Thank you.
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  Thank you for having me. I'm so pleased to dive into the
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  intersections of leadership and technology with you.
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  And before we do that, I would love to know how you see trust
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  evolving and or eroding when we talk about leaders and
• 1:31
  organizations these days. Yeah.
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  So now we live in this age of hyper visibility.
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  So what you have is, you know, you can go and Google
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  everything. You can go and search for
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  anything on anybody. And because of that, because of
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  this abundance of information and accessibility is actually
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  where you see a lot more of people, but people feel less
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  seen. Do you see what I mean?
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  So there's a lot of information like before the stalk, you could
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  go and Google Meal, you find practically everything about me.
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  Do you know? But it doesn't mean you know me,
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  do you know? So with all these systems about
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  and all this technology we are, there's a deluge of information
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  about people, but trust is more about emotional safety.
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  And so the fact they have all this information about me
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  doesn't mean I feel safe with you.
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  When when we need, you're going to be, you know, I will trust.
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  It doesn't work like that. And so now trust is shifted from
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  transparency in terms of insistence into more relational
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  because people want something more behind the information.
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  But so that's how I feel technology is actually shifting
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  trust in systems. And you've written like and
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  spoken a lot about the cost of like high performance and
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  exactly those environments that you reflected upon and at the
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  same time the need for the rest and integrity and the well-being
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  of the people. So what role does technology
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  play showing up in the way like modern environments work and how
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  they are designed? So what we have in the modern
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  workplace because of technology is become frictionless.
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  So everything is more efficient and people, you can reach people
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  24/7 if you want to, but it's also made to boundary less.
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  And so because of that, there's a world being aspect of it
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  because the fact that people you can reach people on three
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  different do you know, applications at any time or
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  whatever doesn't mean that people have developed themselves
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  enough to be able to have their boundaries in place,
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  Particularly the young people coming into the workplace who
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  will find it difficult to say no to a boss.
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  So if you have a boss that you know doesn't respect boundaries
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  and is expecting you to answer calls at 12 midnight and stuff
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  like that, and because there's a technology to do so they're
• 4:02
  using it, then people are more susceptible to burn out.
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  And people have now become very suspicious, you know, of
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  constantly scanning for, for burnout, for bias, all that kind
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  of stuff, because technology makes it easy to do that.
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  And so this is what we need to watch out for.
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  I mean, the fact that technology is only meant to support us, to
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  help us. So yes, the frictionless is
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  good, but we shouldn't use that to extract all the goodness out
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  of our employees and not leave some time to live because, you
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  know, life is about living and work is just there to help us,
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  to support us. Do you know, it's a function,
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  It's an aspect of living. It is not all of life.
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  And for me, the ones I worry about most are the young ones,
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  the ones that say new to the workplace perhaps aren't as
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  confident enough to push back when, you know, they're working
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  with somebody who expects them to be boundary less, you know,
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  and, and that has got a huge world being impact.
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  That's something we need to watch out for.
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  And in particular, what you've also like and looked into was
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  the emotional load that's particularly women care when
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  they have like leadership positions.
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  Sometimes those like impacts are visible and sometimes they
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  aren't. So do you think emotional labor
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  is an acknowledged infrastructure of like trust and
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  organizations? And how does it also deflect for
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  women in particular? Right.
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  So emotional labor is not recognized, full stop, right?
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  It's just not recognized in the workplace.
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  And I actually wrote an article about this on LinkedIn last
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  Tuesday, which is just completely taken off.
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  The last time I lived, I had like 1000 reactions.
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  And that's probably the most reactions I've had for anything
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  I've ever written, right? And it was about the blue
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  employees. So some behavioural psychologist
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  called John Levy, I think it's Levy or Levy, he wrote in the
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  Wall Street Journal about these blue employees.
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  And most of the time they tend to be women.
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  And they're the ones checking in on people.
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  They're the ones making sure that there is psychological
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  safety and emotional safety in meetings for people to be able
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  to perhaps descent from the heart mentality, as it were.
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  And they'll be the ones remembering your birthday and
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  doing the cakes. I mean, I remember the last time
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  a man boy and a birthday cake to the office for an employee.
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  But normally the women, right, who go out and sort out the
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  cards and all that. And these are the things, the
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  little glue that keeps people together and and make them
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  functioning and ticking. But, and this is done by
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  somebody with empathy, feeling, seeing.
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  And I mean, I've also written about, you know, being my boss
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  at one time in the workplace, wiping the floor with me and a
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  colleague reaching out afterwards to asking if I was
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  OK. Now, these blue people, they're
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  the ones that make you hanging there in the workplace.
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  Now, what she did, what a colleague did for me was very
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  kind. But when was the last time you
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  saw kindness on anybody's appraisal?
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  It's just not there, do you know?
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  So those qualities, the empathy, the kindness, the reading the
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  room, all those things is never actually part of competencies.
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  When we're looking at appraisals, we look at other
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  masculine traits, and that's what we're rewarding.
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  And so until we actually change core competencies and start
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  including these soft skills, these glue employees burnout
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  because they do all this work, they're not recognized, they
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  leave. It's not good for the workplace
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  and it's not good for the culture.
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  And so for me, I think leaders need to start looking at how we
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  can actually recognize these. Now we see them as personality
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  traits. We will say, oh, that person is
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  a kind person, right? No, we shouldn't see them as
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  personality traits. It's about time we started
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  seeing them as skills that they bring to the workplace and the
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  value of that and reflecting them in performance appraisal.
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  In technology oftens promises efficiencies and sometimes even
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  amplifies availability, invisible expectations and also
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  all sorts of emotional self management.
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  So in short, probably those masculine categories or
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  characteristics that you were referring to and also tying back
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  into your description of high performance, how do you see tech
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  shaping our relationship with emotional authenticity and care
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  What I can see and sense those characteristics that you were
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  referring to as those gloom employees that are part of
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  organizations? Yeah.
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  So tech is good at patterns, reading patterns, predicting
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  patterns. It doesn't feel and that is the
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  difference. And so we cannot outsource
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  empathy to tech, for example. And so we need to start
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  recognizing the limitations of tech.
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  It can only go so far, right, in terms of caring about people.
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  It can do the predictions, they can flag, they do because of
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  this pattern, we think this person is probably burning out
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  and then a manager can take that data and act on it.
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  But that action is got somebody that with intelligence
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  essentially to be with intelligence to look at the data
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  that the tech is providing. So we cannot outsource empathy
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  to tech. It will never work.
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  It would only ever, you know, it's reading the patterns and
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  it's saying, OK, perhaps it can suggest, you know, this might be
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  required or this might be required, but you will always
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  need the human element for the other person to feel seen.
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  And that is what is important. And I think that's what it's
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  lacking. And now because the tech is
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  there, you know, people will tend to outsource because let's
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  say we had the app that's telling you that.
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  I think so. And so it's now prone to burn
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  out. And then the manager will just
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  send a quick e-mail, whatever. And I've done my bit.
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  That's not enough. You need to be sitting there
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  with that person having a conversation, looking into their
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  eyes. AI can't do that, you know, and
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  making them feel seen and hard, that is where the humanity comes
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  in. And I've always said that, you
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  know, with the increase in tag, it makes humanity more
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  fashionable because now is needed even more.
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  But then there is this growing discourse that AI can simulate
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  affection, can simulate empathy, can also simulate some sort of
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  synthetical connections. And you now said that people
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  need to sit in front of each other to be feel really seen.
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  But do you think that there are elements that could be ever
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  automated in order for an AI to like step in and take on that
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  human element? Yeah, elements can be simulated
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  by AI. So this is what I was saying
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  earlier, all the data aspect of it, right.
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  So I will give you an example of let's say AI cannot come and say
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  a mourn with you if you've lost somebody.
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  So they can tell you or tell somebody to come and tell you
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  all the right things and all that.
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  Maybe the person doesn't know what to say and they can suggest
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  this is what this is What in terms of the simulated empathy,
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  right? So it can simulate that this is
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  the right thing to say, blah, blah, blah, right.
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  But if the person coming to sit there and saying that is saying
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  it absent mindedly because they've read it off ChatGPT and
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  they're just going to come and parrot it to you, you feel it.
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  There is a there is a dissonance there and it makes it even worse
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  why you mistrust them even more. Do you know, and what would you
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  rather get? Somebody just sends you an upset
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  minded hard, you know, when you when you're in the e-mail or
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  somebody just comes and sits with you, says nothing, makes
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  you a cup of tea, just sits there with you and makes you
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  know you're there. That is the difference, right?
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  So the tech can only go so far. It can feel the empathy.
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  If we're saying that I said, this is what you're supposed to
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  feel. This is what the data says.
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  And so when you go, make sure you look empathetic and whatever
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  and say all those things, right? But we are human beings and we
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  need that human connection, and that's how come you can go and
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  sit next to somebody, not say a word, and still be able to have
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  an impact on their nervous system.
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  That is the human thing. Tech can't do that.
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  And you and what you write and also what you talk about coined
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  it in some ways embodied awareness.
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  And then you often connect that to leadership and in notice what
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  happens in our bodies and minds. And when we catch up on that,
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  how can we use that and to build awareness and to also rebuild
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  trust with ourselves, with the teams and potentially also with
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  technology? Yeah, yeah.
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  So I love this question because empathy, for example, has to be
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  a body, right? And so certain things, your body
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  is so intelligent, it knows even before you know, and it starts
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  behaving in strange ways. How come when we're scared or
• 13:34
  before, like I'm a, I'm a speaker normally before you go
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  on stage, suddenly you need to go and have a wee.
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  What's that about? Right?
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  That's the body preparing itself.
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  So the body warns us, you have you feel it in your gut, your
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  shoulders tighten. It just tells you, you know,
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  some sometimes something visceral happens and somebody
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  literally is being sick. That's the body, right?
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  So that's intelligence in the body and it tells us, but for
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  some reason we haven't learned to trust our bodies.
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  And So what we were talking about, you know, the the texts
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  who to them AI being so advanced now people can say, OK, yeah,
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  you know, empathy and all that. It can feel it and it can say
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  whatever. So let's say a manager has gone
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  and read whatever chat is saying.
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  Do you know? But they don't believe any of
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  that. That's just what chat has told
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  them to come and tell you. And their manager comes and
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  they're telling you. All we have to do is look in
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  their eyes and you would know they don't believe any of it.
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  Do you know? And again, it's to do with the
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  body. So there's so much intelligence
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  in the body. And so when the words coming out
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  of somebody's mouth, like a manager, right, is disconnected
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  with what's going on in their nervous system, what you get is
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  that cognitive dissonance. So then people kind of don't
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  trust you. Like some, I'm not sure if it's
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  happened to you where you met somebody, you don't even know
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  them, but you don't trust them. Somehow it sets off your Spidey
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  senses, right? That is the human in you.
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  And the body knows things and tells us things.
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  But a lot of us have not been educated on that or even if it's
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  given as a signals, we ignore it.
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  And so, you know, when people say the Gatin sting, whatever it
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  is, when a leader is being disingenuous, people feel it and
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  it erodes trust, you know, And that erodes, you know, that
• 15:28
  psychological safety, that emotional safety that people
• 15:30
  need to feel when you're not being genuine and you're saying
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  one thing and your nervous system is, you know, saying
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  another thing, people can't relax in your presence.
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  And this is the sort of training now I think indeed there's need
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  to be able to regulate their own emotional system.
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  Of course, AI and the tools can support say this is the right
• 15:52
  thing to say, don't say this, blah, blah.
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  So they can educate themselves on that.
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  But trust is embodied empathy some bodies, and you need to
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  work on that and then put the technology on top of it.
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  And you've highlighted those sensors, those that recognize
• 16:10
  that some people are trustworthy or maybe not.
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  And this can be very individual to you, me and like whomever.
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  And do you think that it's easier or harder to make that
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  kind of judgement with technological systems because
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  they are artificial, They are not real.
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  They're they don't sit with me in like a room.
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  However, I use them on a daily basis and they intrude like my
• 16:39
  daily being so much that in my head right now, I think that I
• 16:44
  would need to be able to either make this judgement call or not
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  in order for me to evaluate whether or not I want to use or
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  don't use a technological infrastructure.
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  So now, unfortunately, because we haven't been educated in
• 17:01
  trusting ourselves, we trust systems more because it's easy,
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  right? Because it will tell you things
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  and it's using data as predicting stuff.
• 17:09
  And it's easy to validate. Whereas your gut feel is, you
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  know, sometimes, often people have, it's just because they
• 17:16
  haven't been educated on trusting themselves.
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  And a lot of the work I do is to bring people back into
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  themselves and educate them on trusting themselves to
• 17:27
  understand their own signals, to understand what their bodies
• 17:29
  telling them. Because it's only when you do
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  that, that then you can be able to correctly assess the
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  information that technology is giving you.
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  And so technology is only a tool.
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  And this is what we keep forgetting.
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  It is only a tool to support us. And so, and I mean, we've all
• 17:48
  heard of GPS systems making people drive off a Cliff, right?
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  Sometimes these things go wrong. And so you are supposed to use
• 17:56
  your human intelligence to evaluate what is coming, what
• 18:01
  information is being given to you, right?
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  And then, you know, trusting that information.
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  But now we ought to ignore the human and put a trust implicitly
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  in systems because they're so advanced now, they can predict
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  so many things and tell us things that we don't even know,
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  which is all still true, right? They can do all those things.
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  But, but sometimes even something that is good, it might
• 18:26
  not be good for you. So on the whole, in general, it
• 18:30
  might be good and, and, but I don't know, everybody knows
• 18:34
  that. I don't know.
• 18:35
  There is some protein in milk and protein is good for you,
• 18:37
  blah, blah, blah. I'm lactose intolerant, for
• 18:40
  example. So if I went and took that milk,
• 18:43
  it's not going to sit well with me.
• 18:44
  It's the same width, you know, So the technology can give you
• 18:48
  all the information that is there, but the humans and you
• 18:53
  need to exercise your agency. So I'm not saying to the baby
• 18:58
  out with the bathwater. No technology is great, but it's
• 19:03
  only serving us and we need to remember that and come back into
• 19:07
  ourselves and see how do we feel about this piece of data before
• 19:14
  we action it. And you've now coached like
• 19:16
  leaders on exactly those points that you made, but also across
• 19:21
  sectors and even cultures. And reflecting upon technology,
• 19:25
  it like mostly stays the same across any like context that
• 19:28
  they're in. However, like us as humans and
• 19:31
  like organizations and themselves, they're constantly
• 19:34
  evolving. So what patterns do you see
• 19:37
  around trust and potentially cultures and is there
• 19:41
  potentially also a difference of how women experience trust at
• 19:45
  the intersection to technology both in like giving and
• 19:48
  receiving it in hierarchical and systems?
• 19:51
  Yeah, yeah. So trust is an interesting one
• 19:54
  for women. So for women, we are socialized
• 19:58
  to earn trust. And so we're coming particularly
• 20:01
  into the workplace and we're desperate for approval.
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  We have to earn trust and we're earning trust upwards and
• 20:07
  sideways. So peer level and up the chain.
• 20:11
  And it's exhausting. And so we're there, we're
• 20:14
  pleasing, we're being flexible, we're doing this.
• 20:17
  We're doing this all because we want to earn trust, because
• 20:20
  that's how society is conditioned.
• 20:22
  Women, men, on the other hand, assume trust.
• 20:26
  They are conditioned to assume trust.
• 20:28
  So they're not there getting the cakes and the birthday cards and
• 20:32
  all to earn trust, as it were. Do you know?
• 20:36
  And so in the workplace then, and especially in systems that
• 20:41
  works against the women because even if they know what they're
• 20:44
  doing, they're almost always a bit on the back foot.
• 20:47
  And there's a talk I do around the the workplace biases the
• 20:52
  women fall into and broadly speaking, about six of these
• 20:56
  biases. One of them is performance bias,
• 20:58
  and performance bias is the people.
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  Is she? The man will know what he's
• 21:03
  doing and is competent, but a woman has to go in there and
• 21:08
  prove that she's competent. So it's the same with the
• 21:12
  trusting. And because it's performance
• 21:14
  bias exists in the workplace, whether we know it or not, and
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  both men and women are equally biased against women.
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  Women are constantly, constantly on the back four always, even
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  when they know what they're talking about, right?
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  They will be interrupted in meetings because there is that
• 21:29
  perceived bias. So when it comes to systems and
• 21:33
  appraisals and everything, it still doesn't work in their
• 21:35
  favor because they're still earning this trust.
• 21:38
  And although they give this trust upwards and sideways, they
• 21:42
  don't earn it back. It's not as generous to them.
• 21:46
  And so it doesn't work in their favor.
• 21:48
  And so these are sorts of changes we need to make in the
• 21:50
  workplace in terms of how we recognize performance and manage
• 21:54
  away these biases, you know, educate people on that.
• 21:58
  And so, you know, I had this woman tell me she was fuming.
• 22:01
  She was in a conference. She was the VP of some tech
• 22:04
  company, whatever. And she was standing there with
• 22:07
  one of her technical architects at a conference and this guy
• 22:10
  came up to them them and started speaking to technical architect,
• 22:13
  assuming that he was the man, do you know, and he worked for her.
• 22:17
  But again, that is performance bias right there.
• 22:20
  And so we need to look at our systems, look at what we're
• 22:24
  evaluating for performance and make sure, again, what are the
• 22:28
  biases in there and strip them out.
• 22:31
  So the women will have to have a fair chance and then not.
• 22:35
  They're wearing themselves out trying to earn trust.
• 22:38
  So if you could now redesign leadership structures or
• 22:42
  systems, potentially also the education for it, for the era of
• 22:49
  artificial intelligence, what would you look at first?
• 22:52
  Empathy, literacy, or stillness? OK, that's a good one.
• 22:58
  That's a good one. I'm going to start with
• 23:00
  stillness. Believe it or not, I'm going to
• 23:02
  start with stillness because again, this is the embodiment
• 23:07
  part. Because you really can't know
• 23:09
  unless you're still to know what your body is trying to tell you,
• 23:13
  right? And listening to your body.
• 23:15
  And so if you can be still and get to know your body and
• 23:19
  understand the signals and interpret them correctly, that's
• 23:23
  when you have the empathy, which to me is emotional literacy,
• 23:29
  right? Because that comes out of the
• 23:31
  stillness. And so when you have that
• 23:34
  emotional literacy, which is empathy and kindness and all
• 23:40
  that lovely stuff, then you can put the intellectual literacy on
• 23:46
  top of that. But what happens is we start
• 23:49
  with intellectual literacy, right?
• 23:51
  And that intellect, again, it's a tool that's supposed to be
• 23:55
  serving us, that's all. So you want to do something, you
• 23:58
  think about it or you a feeling comes to you, OK, I'm going to
• 24:01
  go do this. And then you use the intellect
• 24:05
  to execute, right? But what happens is this tool,
• 24:09
  this smart tool has been given to us, you know, for, for
• 24:13
  reasoning, for execution. We forget that it is only a tool
• 24:19
  serving us and that it is up to us to give it the right data for
• 24:23
  it to serve us as you. We treat the intellect the same
• 24:26
  as we're treating artificial intelligence, right?
• 24:28
  So, so that intelligence that is within us is only a tool.
• 24:33
  And so you start with stillness and then that will help you to
• 24:38
  get the emotional literacy, which is the empathy, and then
• 24:43
  you layer the intellectual literacy on top of that.
• 24:49
  Now if you look ahead in like our timings, building up
• 24:53
  organizations, the fastness and like velocity of our times, what
• 24:58
  are you most curious about? I am most curious about how we
• 25:03
  evolve as a humans alongside AII really am most curious about
• 25:10
  that because I feel if we use properly, it's going to unleash
• 25:15
  more capability in the human. Really it's going to free us up
• 25:19
  from the drudgery and all the things you know, and to hire
• 25:23
  intellectual pursuits. And I honestly believe that
• 25:26
  we've got capabilities that we haven't even tapped into yet
• 25:30
  because we've been bogged down by the mundane of spreadsheets
• 25:36
  and work and the chore and everything like that.
• 25:39
  And if tech is able to take that away from us, might have the
• 25:43
  bandwidth to think, to dream, to go outside the box, to think
• 25:48
  big, do you know? And that I think is very
• 25:51
  exciting when all the drudgery work is kind of taken away and
• 25:56
  we can just blue skies thinking and really use our higher
• 26:01
  capabilities and the sort of a human we will become.
• 26:05
  And so for me, I find that very exciting, really, really
• 26:08
  exciting. I think we can like be curious
• 26:12
  about how it's going to turn out because there are so many
• 26:14
  discussions, controversials around the opportunities.
• 26:18
  But I do like the road ahead that you just showed us for.
• 26:21
  And as our episode of this podcast comes to an end, I do
• 26:25
  want to share some moments with you. so-called in between
• 26:29
  moments. I do have them with every guest
• 26:31
  of my podcast episodes. And these are quick and
• 26:34
  intuitive reflections that I would love for you to just like
• 26:37
  answer in a word or a sentence that is on top of your mind when
• 26:40
  I like OST, the context that you're now diving into.
• 26:44
  And the first one is going to be what does trust feel to you
• 26:48
  like? O going into embodiment again is
• 26:52
  fully exhaling. That's what trust means to me,
• 26:55
  to be able to fully exhale. You can tell it comes from your
• 26:59
  heart. I love that.
• 27:00
  What does leadership need more of?
• 27:02
  Leadership needs more of humanity and less of heroism.
• 27:07
  Honestly, we need more humanity in leadership.
• 27:10
  And what should technology? Do support the human.
• 27:13
  That's what it's supposed to be, supposed to serve the human.
• 27:17
  That is technology's proper place.
• 27:20
  And what does the human body tell us?
• 27:22
  Everything. And so the human body tells us
• 27:26
  way before the mouth days, right?
• 27:30
  Way, way before the mouth even opens, the human body tells us.
• 27:34
  And so get back to being in body to trust, to learn to trust, and
• 27:40
  then you will get all that intelligence, you will get all
• 27:44
  that data and then you can act on that data.
• 27:48
  And what does the in between mean to you?
• 27:50
  The pause before transformation, the pause again, I, I, I did a
• 27:54
  pace on LinkedIn and I was saying about how particularly
• 27:57
  for women who find it very difficult to say no, is that
• 28:00
  when somebody's asking you anything, just pause before you
• 28:03
  response. And in that pause, a lot can
• 28:06
  happen, but it's having the confidence just to pause.
• 28:09
  Just it doesn't have to be a big pause.
• 28:11
  You know that is the pause between the transformations.
• 28:15
  It is that pause that allows you to choose your response rather
• 28:19
  than just knee jerking a response.
• 28:23
  It allows you choice. And if you are embodied, you
• 28:27
  will be trusted. You will trust yourself and be
• 28:31
  guided to the right response. I think there is nothing else to
• 28:35
  say here. It's like a beautiful ending to
• 28:37
  a very wholesome conversation. Thank you for sharing all your
• 28:41
  perspectives, for integrating tech and leadership, the trust
• 28:45
  that we women experience, but also the contextual structures
• 28:49
  that we sometimes face. And thank you so much for your
• 28:52
  time and for joining us on this episode.
• 28:55
  Thanks for having me, it's been a pleasure.