Latest / Dishin' Dirt with Gary Pickren / NextHome CEO James Dwiggins on Why Clear Cooperation Is Under Attack and What Every Agent Must Do

Transcript

NextHome CEO James Dwiggins on Why Clear Cooperation Is Under Attack and What Every Agent Must Do · Dishin' Dirt with Gary Pickren

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is Dish and Dirt with Gary Pickering, South Carolina's only podcast dedicated to the real estate agent craft.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And now the host of Dish and Dirt, Gary Picker.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Dish and Dirt.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your often opinionated but rarely wrong host, Gary Pickering, coming to you from the beautiful confines of Blair Keto Pickering Cat's line in downtown Columbia, South Carolina.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: This, the first week of February 2025.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to jump right into my show today.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Not going to waste any time because my guest, I am so excited to have.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: We are honored to have the CEO of Next Home Realty, Jane Dwiggins.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: He is the co-founder of Next Home Inc., founded it in 2014.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: He now has over 600 offices nationwide, 6,000 agents.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: He is a frequent speaker at NAR and M and Select.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: He has been recognized as a futurist and as a trailblazer by RIS Media.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And most importantly, I found this to be amazing.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Franchise Business Review named his company the number one franchise in terms of owner satisfaction of the country across all industries.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about that, Chick-fil-A is in that as an industry.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it utterly blows my mind that you are the number one franchise, even over at Chick-fil-A.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for joining us.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited to have you talk about a bunch of topics.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, appreciate it.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Excited to talk about them.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, uh, as you heard, my introduction, often opinionated, rarely wrong.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of see where I come from.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I tell it like it is.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people like it, sometimes they don't.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're often outspoken.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're very firm.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're very direct.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: And my favorite saying I hear you say often on podcasts is I think I'm going to piss off a lot of people or a lot of agents with this one, but I don't care.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to go forward.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: How's that played out?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now that I'm always trying to get canceled.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So how's that played out for you in the industry?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh it's done well for me.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just speaking your mind.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, you know, over the past two years, I've become very vocal first about the lawsuits that were happening in the business.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not shy about what that is and the outcome, some of which I actually think is good for the industry.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I I feel like over the past two years, lawyers have have dictated our talking points as an industry.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think lawyers work for in my company, they work for me, they don't run my business.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we've made you know a lot of decisions to talk about subjects that people were scared about.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm very outspoken.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: And overall, I've been really happy about that because the industry's learned a lot.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: That people that have been following our podcast and doing the things that we've been talking about for two years are in a good spot, and a lot of other people who weren't or were trying to fight changes or, you know, try they're just trying to do workarounds, aren't in the same spot as a lot of people who just understood where things are going.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not a problem giving my opinion.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And people like it, great.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't, I don't care about that either.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how it works.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's made you a leader in the industry, and you're absolutely right about workarounds.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Whenever something starts with, I need to figure out a workaround, that usually means what you're doing is not ethical or legal.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm happy to hear you say that.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So being that you're now one of the leaders in the industry, where do you see next home, your company, going in the next three to five years?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, so we're a 10-year-old company.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're privately funded.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: My partner and I funded the business, so our board meetings are a bottle of wine.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's been fun to grow the business organically over the past 10 years.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you mentioned, our our numbers have been that we've had really good growth.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're not trying to be publicly traded, but we definitely are in our next business cycle.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I've seen this sort of downturn as an opportunity for some pretty significant changes.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're in what I call our mid-growth cycle as a business.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So for us over the next five years, we're planning to triple the size of our organization.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll go from 600 offices to at least 1,200 locations from a franchise perspective, but definitely closer to 15 to 20,000 agents across the firm.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we're we're making some pretty big strides in that direction to do that.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I'm third generation in real estate.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So my grandfather started his company in 1967, which most people don't know.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I both my parents were brokers, my grandparents were brokers.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: I worked for my parents' company when I was younger.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've been in the space literally my entire life.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I see these, I've been through many cycles of ups and downs, and there's lots of opportunities in this business if you just look forward and not backwards.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So and I like that about you because you you're born and raised in real estate, you've spent your career in real estate.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it does give you a very unique perspective that when somebody comes from another industry, a tech industry or something, and they come into real estate and they're going to change how we do everything, and they don't understand at all how the background works or how things are.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when the MLS book was in existence.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Most people have no idea what I'm talking about.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I've I've seen this from a very long perspective.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about the MLS book all the time of how how you used to open up this book and angels and fireworks and music would play and the light would shine up.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that was the big thing for the agents back 30 years ago is if you had the book, and this is where it was basically a catalog of all the properties for sale all before Al Gore invented the internet, as I joke.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: But once you've had this book, you were in control of the information, and that was what the role of the agent is.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: But the role of the agent, because of the internet, has drastically changed for the better.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as Tom Ferry has said, you know, anytime you have an upheaval in the market, it's an opportunity for every agent to excel and change your standing in the market.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I think that's where we are today.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, I I will I don't think the role of the realtor has shifted that much.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think what we did is the same.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: We just didn't articulate that very well.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: We stood on the fact that we had access to the information, but the reality is the job of an agent back 30 years ago, 40 years ago is exactly the same as what it is today with additions, but our role is there.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: We just we're just learning to articulate value differently today.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I again I believe that's actually making our industry strong.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Look, if you think about the use, I love the stat because I'm just analytical like that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: In 2001, the use of a realtor was 69% of the time on the buy side.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So think about that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Zillow was formed in 2005, just for historical perspective.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the internet was at its infancy, and we weren't really in this sort of world where you have access to everything.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd think that after you develop all these sites with all this data and have everything imaginable for the consumer, that the use of a realtor would go down, yet it's the exact opposite.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So 69% of the time in 2001, now we're 89% of the time a realtor is being used.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the question I always throw out is it's not about the information.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's about how you use that information, talk about that information, and people want guidance.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: They want convenience and they want service and they need help because it's an infrequent transaction they're going to do two to three times in their life, and you don't want to screw that up.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: So And on this show, we talk about uh to me, the number one value add that a consumer gets from a using a real estate agent is the navigation.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Most people don't know how to get from I want to sell a house to under contract and close, or I want to look at a house, I might buy a house to close.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what the real estate agent's real job is, is to navigate you through that process.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell It's totally that.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so I have a startup I did called Raise, which is a which is a product that allows people to see all the work the realtor does.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I use this stat because everybody thinks that realtors don't do anything.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: They just like, oh, you guys just open some doors, write a contract, get paid.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So what's interesting is when we started tracking what realtors actually do, the average amount of time an agent will spend working with a buyer is 87 hours.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, the buyer's average, the average buyer thinks an agent spends less than 15 hours.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, big problem there.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Problem 200 different outcomes an agent will do over the course of the transaction, 56 days to complete a transaction.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the the perception of what a consumer thinks we do versus the reality of what we do is completely different.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so until as an industry, we get better at transparency into this work product, people are gonna question that.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: But once they see it, they're like, oh my God, I had no idea there was that much work involved.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And to your point, they want help in that process because any any script along that way can be catastrophic to someone's finances.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they're gonna do this a couple times in their life.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like we're buying stuff on Amazon.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And as we get through our show today, we're gonna talk about some other topics first, but if we have some time on the end, I do want to delve in that because I do think we have a bad messaging problem at the National Association of Realtor level.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Years ago, they had some very, very good commercials that have gone away from those commercials, and I think they need to come back with a commercial essentially, like you're talking, explaining these things to the consumer.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: We don't sell houses.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not my house.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't build the house.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: I helped navigate you through the process, and this is how long it takes me to navigate you, and these are all the things I do, and so hopefully we can see see that in the future.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, today what I want to talk about is the threats that are facing us today.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: We've been talking about that on this show for several months now.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's two big threats to us as an industry.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, I think clear cooperation going away is a huge threat.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think the continuation of broker-to-broker compensation staying around is also a threat.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to see CCP stay and broker to broker go in 2025.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Are those the biggest threats you see right now to real estate agents, or is there something else that we're not seeing?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Short term, yes, I do.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think those are the two big ones that we're we're facing.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Long term, I think that there is the, you know, what we used to say, the line over the hill, going back to NER comments.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think the disruption is going to be different.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh certainly artificial intelligence, automating mortgage process is going to be a thing.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's very early, to be clear in that.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's five to ten years down the road.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Will people worry about what the disruption will be to the sector?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at it like does mortgage move further into the real estate space?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Does it become where Rocket makes it so that, you know, we don't charge you any kind type of fee to help you sell your house as long as you do the loan through us?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: These are things that people need to be thinking about because automating part of the process, making that the lost leader to pick up revenue on the other side is one of the things I'm most looking at with kind of an integration of AI and all of that together.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think to your qu to your question, the short-term disruption is us being stupid as an industry and disrupting ourselves.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think I'll start with CCP.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is, in my opinion, not a perfect policy.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: There are probably some things that could be modified with CCP, but overall it is a very pro-consumer policy.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, not to go on my soapbox here, but I remember to we were just talking about it, the days prior to the MLS.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what the historical part, I said this when I was on stage last week in in New York.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: 40% of the industry has no historical perspective on why CCP even exists.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and our industry needs to do a better job of re-educating people about why the policies that are in place are there to begin with.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't know, you don't know.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: You just see that, like, why am I being fined for not doing something?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is a stupid policy.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: But when you have perspective, you're like, oh, that makes sense.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you a great example of this.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So in 1967, my grandfather opened his company.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: In the 70s and 80s, he had the largest ERA franchise in the United States.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And in in California and the Central Coast, he had three offices and like 126 agents.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, in the 70s and 80s, that was a big company, just for perspective for people that's not big now, but that was big then.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I asked him, I remember asking this question uh when we were talking about his business, you know, later in my in my 20s.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I said, How did you grow your business?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I had inventory.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is a really important comment I'm making.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, what does that mean?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Well, the more inventory you have, because the MLS book comes out once a month to see what was available, we would sell a lot of that inventory internally with our own people.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you needed to work at my company to have access to most of the listing inventory.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you wouldn't know what was for sale.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I already sold most of it within 30 days.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's a really important story here that people do not understand.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that comment 30 years ago is so relevant to what we're talking about today with CCP.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: The idea of a fair marketplace for buyers and sellers to be able to have their home exposed to the greatest marketplace ever built in the history of the world because no one has a marketplace, any any other country other than the United States, maybe Canada.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: But beyond that, this marketplace we created is the best.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's what everybody's trying to copy around the world.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And buyers, you you you remove discriminatory practices because the homes are available to everybody.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: You you make it so that every house is for sale on every website so people can find these homes, which is great for the seller.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what people want, this is the this is this thing that people don't get.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: The only reason why there are certain players who want to remove clear cooperation policy and be able to hold listing inventory back, sell it internally, which is through the office exclusives carve out already in existence today, and then if that doesn't work, they'll throw it on the MLS, but only after their people get first shot at selling all that inventory is literally exclusionary practices by definition.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so what CCP is designed to do is state if you want to publicly market a property, then you have to put it in the MLS within 24 hours if you're a member of the MLS, so that it is cast as wide a net as possible.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're gonna cooperate, that's what a broker co-op is, then everybody follows the same rules.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: There are a few companies who want to script these rules so they can benefit themselves only.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the game.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm on my soapbox because it pisses me off.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen this game before.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: They want to hold the inventory back so they can double end the deal.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, either the listening agent can double end the deal, or number two, is they can get another agent inside the brokerage to bring the buyers so the brokerage makes the other side of that compensation.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's the game.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Period end of story is all about that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's about sheer profit, and they're putting it under the guise of we're gonna test the market.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna, we're not gonna have you affected by days on market on your on your on the listing so it doesn't hurt the seller.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go on a soapbox on that in a minute, too.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is designed to steer a seller into thinking that that is a better option for them when it is actually not in every single survey, right?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So here's what happens though.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: If CCP goes away and these rules change, what will happen is every brokerage, every major brokerage will hold inventory back, they will only put it on their website, they will not make it available to anybody else to see for a period of time until all of their agents have had the opportunity to bring the buyer first, which means that buyers will have to go to every major website to figure out what the hell is for sale.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sellers are gonna get screwed, they're gonna get pissed off and start suing people because why isn't my home on Zillow, the biggest real estate marketplace in the world?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll end up getting this game where these big companies go, if you want to have access to our inventory, like what my grandfather did 30 years ago, 40 years ago, is be like, well, then you gotta work here.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: The death of the small broker.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and by the way, I'm not so everybody gets this wrong.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not some socialist person.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like I couldn't be further from that.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I absolutely believe in free market principles.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not free market principles.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is harming consumers to gain financial benefit for the company.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't about making it good for the buyer and seller.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is the worst possible thing for the buyer.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And this whole like sellers want privacy, bullshit.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're talking about Taylor Swift and freaking Elton John, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, like we've got 1% of the 1% that want it.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: But if you ask every seller, 99.9% of sellers, what is your goal?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'd like to sell my home for the highest price possible.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Then we need to put it on the biggest marketplace possible.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Period, the end, that's it.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the final thing I'll say is this, and I've studied this, like I'm obviously acutely educated on this subject.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: If people get rid of CCP, every single realtor will screw their own business.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is really important what I'm going to tell you that no one's talking about.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you do lead gen, you're done.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: That team that you have, fire half your team.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can't get lead gen from Zillow or Realtor or whatever, or wherever you're going, because you they have the inventory to generate the eyeballs to create the leads, that inventory gets scattered.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to get leads from Compass unless you work for Compass or Howard Hana or EXP or Remax or whatever.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to get that.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you will find that your entire business gets demolished because the buyer can't figure out where the hell everything is.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: They have to work with an agent that has the listing or the inventory at the company, and your lead gen business goes out the door.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I estimate that you're to your comment, I think that mid-size and small independence gone.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then every agent works for a larger company, and then you end up destroying your business.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: We will destroy the entire entire concept of honesty, integrity in the industry, and people don't realize the domino effect.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Not to mention, what do you think Zilla's gonna do?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's the big one.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Zillow is sitting right up there to take it all.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: What is the this is the part that just blows my mind.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I said this in front of like 3,000 people in an audience last week.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, what do you think that the portals are gonna do if they don't have listing inventory on their websites?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: You think Zilla with 200 million you 200 million unique visitors a month is just gonna take it?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are you nuts?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna go, oh, okay, well, you guys don't want to share inventory since I have all the eyeballs.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what we're gonna do.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm making this up.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they'll do this, by the way.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: It just makes logical sense to me.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we have all the top teams working for us.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the gig.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna become a full-blown brokerage.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Screw you all.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: We have all the eyeballs, and if you want any type of inventory, you leave cobalt banker, big cobalt banker team, and you work for me.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you think a team is gonna be like, no, I'm gonna stay a cobalt banker as I get on my legion?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, they're not.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna go there's no doubt.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So let's unpack that because there's a million things in there.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you know.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: You you you are screaming exactly the same thing I am.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, before we get in and break down some of that, what is the real risk in terms of percentage of chance that NAR just walks away from this thing and says, CCP's gone.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're done with it.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm in the camp that I think they'll make modifications to it, but they leave the policy in place.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what those modifications are.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I personally want to see office exclusives gone away with.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think so too.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's an absolutely horrible component of it, which to be clear, that's not an NER policy that was actually dictated by the Department of Justice in a previous settlement.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, so I think they keep it with some modification and figuring out how to work through that to avoid litigation.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't, I think NER needs to realize they'll actually be the demise of their own association because I believe that CCP going away will kill off a significant portion of the agent population, which I'm actually a fan of.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's too many damn realtors anyway.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But they'll actually percentage was 71, didn't even do it, 71% didn't even do a transaction last year.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and look, that's not uncommon.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: We all know the numbers, so but I think if they're not careful with what they're doing, they will actually hurt themselves.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I know this is a tough decision.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're threatening to be sued by one side.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's got the DOJ, which by the way, I don't think the DOJ is in the same camp they were.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not referring to administration change, although I think that would be part of it.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think the DOJ is learning, and I've just been privy to some conversations where they're like, oh, I actually understand that this policy probably is really good for consumers.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because nothing about real estate.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: They know that's the most important thing.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: They do not, but I but I know there's been lots of conversations with the DOJ, and I can simply state that in those conversations, some of My friends who've been in those conversations have stated they're realizing that this is not this policy is probably way more pro-consumer than they thought.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the issues that I think it's most pro-consumer on that you you've talked about a lot, and I've heard you talk about it on stage and I've heard it in some of your other speeches.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I to me, this is the number one part of it.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: If it's pro-consumer, it has to be pro-consumer.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first thing that we have to do.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not good for the consumer, then we shouldn't, it shouldn't be good for the agent, is it should it be good for the consumer?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: How can NAR walk away from this when their whole being, in my opinion, is based on fair housing?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: It is about providing every single consumer, regardless of where you come from, what you look like, or who you love, access to a house.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a person on Inman News the other day, they quoted a broker.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: He said, I'm an African-American broker of over 40 years.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I have seen and experienced a struggle with fair housing.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Removing this just opens back door, opens back to door to return to the old ways.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: They have fair haven.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're sitting here now requiring you to do a fair housing ethics hour as part of your renewal every, what, three years for the realtors?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: So how can the realtors just walk away and how can and how can DOJ sit here and not say that if one broker that is all white straight men downtown Columbia, South Carolina, control all of the houses that are for sale in downtown Columbia, South Carolina, that that's not going to have an adverse effect on African Americans or other people trying to move in that community?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't have an answer for you because it will.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, Zillow's new study just showed that.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if you saw the study that just came out last week from Zillow.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: They did a survey with uh forget who the other company was that did it.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was a reputable survey company.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a number that blew my mind, and it's incredibly disturbing to me, is that 76% of uh they did a survey of of sellers on and how they were talked about, what things were talked about with their agents, and they found that 76% of the time minorities were encouraged to do a private off-market deal versus 25% of the time for Caucasian.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Anybody see a problem there?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so to me, these policies are, and it is something that is of massive concern.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the fight is worth the fight to make sure that we're doing things that are pro again.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not opposed, and I I want to be clear about this.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that if a seller wants to have their home off MLS and done differently, I'm not opposed to it, but I think there has to be what I call bumper rails in place to do it.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: So my proposal has been this I don't like office exclusives.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of the policy.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's absolutely stupid, and all it benefits is brokerages.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing beneficial for that for consumers.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Test the market.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, remind me to talk to you about this days on market thing because there's something really important here about fraud I want to talk about.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it's this Mr.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: and Mrs.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Seller, here's the benefit of MLS, and that needs to be clear.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Homes sell for more when they're on the MLS.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody's like, oh, let's prove it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh every MLS study I've seen, in or out of it, just stop.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just common sense.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: If the seller doesn't want to do that, then there needs to be a disclosure that they sign, not docusigned, that they sign and have read to explain to them what it is that's likely going to happen.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Your home will likely sell for less.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be on Zillow.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be on these portals, etc.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the safeguard because I believe that unfortunately, some people in any industry will do bad things to avoid staring at the agent.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: The seller has to have a conversation with an MLS representative.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's just do you understand what you are signing?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: You understand this is what's going to happen.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Then fine.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a free market guy.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you are educated and you understand and you've signed a document to CYA, me for allowing you to do that, so you don't come back and sue me later by saying that you didn't put the home on the MLS, then okay.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I believe 99% of sellers will go, I don't want to sell my home for less, and I want my house on Zillow, and they're going to put the property on the MLS.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm okay with that.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is where it all started, is it not?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, CCP started from Silicon Valley where this exact thing happened.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: You had two brokerages who held all the listings and sold them amongst themselves.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then afterward, next thing you know, people are getting sued over it.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly correct.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And at that point in time in 2012, so I'm in Silicon Valley, just for perspective, it was 30% of the inventory was off MLS in certain cities.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: 30%.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Think about that, right?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: So this is an issue.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now I want to talk about Dayson Markets.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Such an important conversation.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: This the conversation now is that, well, DOM hurts sellers.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know a marketplace on planet Earth that doesn't have the time frame of when you list an item for sale.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Go to car gurus, auto trader, yacht trader, airplane trader, whatever trader, Facebook marketplace, eBay.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's a disclosure item.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's literally data that needs to be made available to buyers to make an educated decision as part of the process.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, people are saying that days on markets for sellers.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're gonna hold it off MLS to avoid that number.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I spent some time last week before my debate asking a bunch of lawyers some questions.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I said, what is the, for example, Department of Real Estate, and since this is you, you can answer this yourself, what do you classify days on market?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: When does it start?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: In California, it's associated to when you sign a listing agreement or if you have an exclusion for when you're not going to publicly market the property for sale, which can mean internally ready.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just a public notice.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm doing an office exclusive and I am selling the property, it is for sale today.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Bring me a buyer, even though it's not on the MLS, days on market begins right then and there.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if a buyer asks you, how long has this home been on the market, and you don't include that time frame of which it was being marketed internally in your office, that is fraud.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be very clear with my words.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: That is fraud.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that is criminal.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that is correct.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: So this whole this whole narrative that's out there about what we don't want to have it harm you, so we're not gonna put it on the MLS.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure as soon as you start to sell the property internally, your days on market just began.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Days on MLS is a different term, but days on market is from the time period you have made that property available for sale.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think people understand, and agents are realizing that they're putting themselves in a very, very precarious situation if you are not giving that accurate information that is required under not only Article I and Article 12 of the Code of Ethics, but also that's just criminal if you're doing fraudulent things.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's under every state licensing law.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way that, I mean, because South Carolina license law, you may not misleading statements is going to relieve that's gonna that's gonna take your license.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's misleading.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start taking licenses then, because I'm all for it, because this is exactly the kind of stuff that cannot happen in our industry.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about some of the opponents.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: You got Robert Refkin, Mauricio Yumansky are the two big guys.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you've been on with Michael Hickman at Seven Gables.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the interesting thing that I've seen about all of these guys, first of all, you're friends with all of them, which is good that we can have this fight back and forth and make social circles.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that about you guys.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think they're being truthful about it.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I the question I want to ask was we know that, as you said earlier, it's about them getting both sides of the listing.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: For you, Manske, I think it's about him controlling who sees the houses because he works in that high-level, high dollar area, and he doesn't want the regular riftcraft agents in there.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: But it's about making their brokerages bigger.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: But how do they answer the claim when you say this is not good for the seller?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not good for the seller.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: How do they try to get around or weasel around that answer?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the answer is always the same.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna disagree with them on this.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: In luxury real estate, and I lived in San Francisco for a very long time and worked in that market, there is a small percentage of people who don't want a bunch of people traipsing through their home.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna argue that, but that's the point one of the one.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the norm.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in those particular examples, you know, that's where not having a property on the MLS is potentially an opportunity.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the the argument I have an issue with is that they still want to market the property for sale on their own websites publicly.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: So like I'm just I'm just like, well, that doesn't are you are you not putting the property anywhere?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are you not sending up flyers to Dubai and New York and Tokyo?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you can look at almost on you, you can go to the MLS and you've got these$50 million houses that are for sale.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: They can handle who goes through it by you can do stuff like yeah, pre-approval and figuring out who they are.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And like, look, in the high-end world, like the reality is they're gonna do some things to figure out whether you can afford a$50 million home or not.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not discriminatory.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can't afford it, you ain't looking at it.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's part of what you do with the seller.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: The seller says, This is what my requirements are.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: You have to watch discrimination.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: I get that, but that's that's kind of like you do a pre-approval and that solves most of those issues.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: So for this week, I'm gonna go ahead and stop the conversation right there.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And James will come back again next week for another 30 minutes or so about clear cooperation, finishing that topic, going over broker to broker, NAR issues, and a bunch of other great things that uh James and I got into.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So come back again next week and we'll finish up the conversation with James.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then the following week, I have Leo Perea from EXP coming in, also talking about a lot of these tremendously important topics for real estate agents.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: So please like us, share it, subscribe to us, and come back again next week for the second half of James Quick.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Y'all have a great weekend.