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SoWhoCaresAnyway E13 Making Mischief, Mobilising Change · SoWhoCaresAnyway

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Hello and welcome to So Who Cares Anyway, the podcast that shares learning, innovation and ideas from the world of health and social care and beyond.
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My name is Ruth Germain and I'm inviting you to join me each week with my inspirational guests to hear about who cares.
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What they do, their passions, their knowledge and ideas, and importantly, the difference they are making to improve the health and wellbeing of people in our communities.
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I consider each of my guests to be incredible individuals working with people in new ways or with key messages to share.
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People from healthcare, social care, the voluntary sector, community groups, and more.
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To join me each week to find out, so who cares.
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Anyway, to find out more about me, who I am and what I do, please head over to my website, www.reflectiveruthconsultancy.com,
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where you can also catch up with previous episodes and read my blogs.
Hello and welcome to this next episode of So Who Cares.
Anyway, today I'm delighted to introduce you to Angela Catley.
Now, I was following a LinkedIn chat that you put up Angela, and we started to discuss, and I got in contact with you 'cause you were talking about when we get old what happens.
At that point of our lives and the fact that there isn't a mass amount of choice, and I know that you've got a career in, health and social care.
So I am just gonna come over to you and just ask you, first of all, before we go into that, when we get old conversation, if you'll tell us a bit more please about who you are.
Thanks for inviting me to get involved with the podcast.
Ruth, really appreciate it.
And listen to the other the other sessions with interest.
Hopefully we can make this.
Thanks.
One, a good one.
I think did you say I've got a long career in health and social care? Lots of experience in my early career, in operational, mainly in the third sector, but also in the public sector.
I've been a registered manager of a care home.
I've been a registered manager of a shared life service.
I've been involved in the management of day services and supported living services.
Lots of kind of early operational experience.
And then in more recent times I.
Connected with who is now my wiggle, my, when I get old partner in crime, Sean Lockwood who I'll talk a little bit more about when I get old in a minute.
Sean's got a background in social work and also within the third sector, but we worked together for a little while and we realized that we had a shared passion, for.
The strengths of people and their communities.
And finding ways to, finding positive ways to view people, work in partnership with people and create services and supports and approaches that kind of built on people's strengths rather than their weaknesses and deficits.
And we realized that we had a shared view of that.
So I think in later years I've been working in that space I'm gonna call it positive disruption.
So I think probably working within, I.
Organizations more.
Most recently an organization called Community Catalyst that Sean founded probably, I dunno, 15 years ago.
But in all sorts of organizations and spaces that are about that focus on positivity, on strengths, on assets, on community and in finding ways to positively disrupt.
Perhaps spaces that don't always have that kind of focus.
Thank you.
And that's a really nice introduction and then you've really brought across your passion.
There actually is seeing everybody as an asset and you're seeing that community and, thinking about spaces that work for them.
So it's really fits with that sort of what matters to you type question, which I think is so important.
So I wonder if you just tell me a little bit more about how this became a passion.
So at what point did you think, actually when I get old.
And I know you're gonna go into a bit more detail later, but what point did you start to think about this? Because what you've talked about here is quite broad, and I know from, just having chats with you in the past that your background, you've worked with a variety of different people in variety of ways.
What brought you to this point? I think I left my main job at Community Catalyst a little over a year ago.
Sean left, she was the CEO of Community Catalyst and she left, probably two, two and a half years ago.
And we started thinking together, making mischief is what we did.
Ruth started to make mischief together, started to have conversations about what did we feel passionate about.
We were big debaters and discussers and idea generators.
So we started doing a bit of that informally, usually over a glass of wine.
I think we realized, I think maybe we always realized, but I think we the realization was brought into sharper focus.
That lots of social care models and approaches don't have that asset-based, strengths-based, community-based approach that we felt so passionately about and that there's a.
Quite a lot of focus on people's deficits and needs.
And some models and approaches very much are about distancing people from their communities, taking them out of their community, taking them away from the people that they love and care about their friendships, their networks.
So, I suppose we spotted, Sean's in her early seventies, I'm sure she won't mind me saying, and has recently supported her.
Mum who lived with dementia.
I'm in my late fifties.
I'm on my own.
I don't have any children.
And I suppose all of that stuff started us thinking, coming from a personal point of view to a wider realization that focus on deficits and needs and that disconnection rather than connection was particularly true for older people.
And there's so little choice, I think in care and support services when you get older.
When we get older, I'm not even gonna say you.
I'm gonna say we, because I think this is about all of us.
Yeah.
The actual range of choice the diversity of options is very narrow.
And I think perhaps we don't always see that as a society.
We don't always appreciate the narrowness of the options and the, what you're taking is a relatively diverse population of people, with huge differences to each other.
And what you're saying is a lot of the services can homogenize, that can bring people into groups.
So I think we realize that there's very little choice.
That some of that choice doesn't have a focus on people's strengths, assets, contributions, and connections.
I think we also started to reflect, again, coming from a personal perspective rather than a professional one, and then moving into that wider view that we realize that 50% of older people fund their own care and support when they get older.
And I'm gonna be one of them.
I dunno whether you are gonna be one of them.
Ruth, I'll Sean's gonna be one of them and a lot of the people, most of the people we speak to will be in that position in the fact that we will be funding our own support.
So there was something about the power of that pound.
That the fact not that people who are funding their own support should get any better or any worse than people who aren't.
Right? This is not about widening inequality, but it is about if we made different purchasing choices, could we influence the social care sector for everyone, for self funders? I don't like that jargon, but I'll use it for self funders and for people who are state funded for their care.
And we decided to test whether we were on our own in this thinking.
We decided to ask those types of questions.
And then I'll tell you a bit more about when I got old, but we quickly realized that we'd like to do something about it.
That's really fascinating.
And yes, I will be in that position exactly like you, Angela, and it's not something I'd really thought about.
I think when I think of Care Homes in particular, I think of them as either being, that they, I've spent time going in and out of care homes that they either looked.
Like they were state run because all the chairs were identical and the way that it was laid out had that sort of look to it.
Or they looked like they were posh care homes who, you know, that they looked a little bit more hotel like.
I can remember one where you went in and the bar was there on the left as you walked in, but actually the rest of it, once you got past, that, the chairs and the chandeliers, it felt pretty much the same actually.
It didn't feel.
Any different.
It just looked a little bit different, but I hadn't really thought about it in the way that you've just put there.
So it's quite an interesting and I really like the fact that you're drawing on those, which I mentioned earlier on.
You're drawing on that, people being that sort of assets and.
Being seen as contributors still to society or to to their community, whatever that might look like, and that bit that you talk about people feeling distanced, or being distanced because actually that is the reality I.
For so many people and I'm sure that you could talk about that more.
So I'd like to just move on and before I do actually the other bit is around, if people that can make a choice because they have the pound in their own pocket, not somebody else who's saying this is where you are going, if they can disrupt the system because you talked about being a disruptor and breaking that status quo, will that have a knock on effect for other people? Yeah I think more choice has got to be better for everyone.
And that's not to say that the choices that are on offer are the wrong ones.
They're just really small ones, so we can all choose to shop at Tesco's, but also wanna go to the butchers or the bakers.
And I think for me, this is not about saying that the services and supports on offer are necessarily bad.
Some of them are amazing, and some of them are less amazing, and that's the nature of, choice.
But I think for me, this is about, we need a much wider range of services and support different types of things that are as different as we all are, and if we can widen that choice.
That's gotta be better for everyone, whether they are state funded or whether they're paying for their own care, that doesn't really matter.
For me it's about how do we get more choice, more diversity, more options for all of us.
Thank you.
So I'm gonna ask you two questions and you can answer whichever one first feels right to you.
Angela is the first bit is.
For a lot of people, what are those choices and what might they be? And the second one is talking about when we get old.
So I dunno whether you want to talk about when we get old first and then the choices or the other way round.
I'm not sure which one would fit best for you about when I get, I think I'll talk about when I get old first.
So I think following on from all of that chats and drinking wine and and conversations, through our careers, Sean and I have got, really wide networks of amazing allies and friends who are working and thinking in this space.
So we started to have those conversations.
We brought together a little network of allies and people who were of a like mind or who were already doing really strong work within this disruptive kind of space.
And we started I was gonna say an organization.
We're not actually quite yet an organization.
We're more of a we were just a bit of mischief.
But I think we're just about, we're on the cusp of being an organization.
We've just heard that our application to become A-A-C-I-O.
Charitable Incorporated organization.
We're gonna hear about that in the next in the next two or three weeks I think.
A by the time this podcast goes out, we will be an organization.
But what a thing.
What is something? We are a, we've got a website we go.org
uk.
We've captured stories of people's care experience.
We've started to pull together a group of, we've got a bit on our website that says, I'm in.
And that's people perhaps like yourself, Ruth, or other people who might be listening to this podcast who think, yeah, I'm interested in actually exploring these issues and perhaps working together with others to find solutions.
So we've got the website.
we've got a little emerging network, I think 130, 140 people in our, I'm in gang, and we've got an advisory group of.
Fantastic connected, brilliant people who are helping us coming from all sorts of different perspectives.
We've we developed a survey, an electronic survey in partnership with a tech company, tech startup called Gobi.
And we've sent that out to Alan Sundry.
We've done some work with a couple of councils.
Nottingham County Council has strong interest in this, and they invited us to their at the end of last year, they have a celebration and learning event for their social care staff.
So they invited us to bring WIGO to that and we ran world Cafe table discussions on the WIGO issues.
With over 80 people, we had a conversation and the primary things we're saying to people are, what are your current experiences of care and support for yourself or someone you love? And what are your aspirations for care and support for yourself or someone you love? And we put the challenge, which is, does the status quo, does what's currently on offer, is that what you are? Is that what you are wanting in your future? And starting with aspirations, people, we probably had, I dunno, 200 and over 200, 220 people at either the World Cafe tables or the survey that have responded and answered the questions that I've just posed.
And when people talked about their aspirations for care, they talked about local, they talked about small, they talked about human relationship based support where the person that they are getting help from knows them well and cares about them.
They talked about reciprocity.
They talked about contribution.
They talked about fun being able to stay themselves, be who they are, enjoy what they like.
And they talked about different services and supports that might enable that to happen.
People gave examples aspirations of cooperative models.
Intergenerational support co-housing extra care.
Very small local care homes creative, really personal home care and help at home.
People talked about home health models.
It was also said, I'd like to go on a cruise ship because that would be cheaper.
So we talked about the Marigold Hotel in India.
On the telly Yes, on the film.
So people shared all sorts of different models that they would aspire to see in their future.
And they talked about the, I don't know, the driving ethos behind, those models.
They would aspire.
To see.
And then they talked about their experiences and when they talked about their experiences often for someone they love and care about they shared a much narrower palette of models and approaches.
And which, kind of reflected what we thought, people had and then some people talked really positively about some of the current care services and there was some lovely stories but many people talked about negative experiences of current care and support services.
And we realized as we started to analyze the results of the survey and the conversation that the gap between what people aspire in their own social care future and what is actually being experienced as we speak is massive.
That there is a huge gap between what we want and what we get.
And so we've got all the takeaways from that, but I think that's our early.
We go journey and where we're at right now.
Thank you Angela.
And that picture of all those things people want, I know that's what I would want.
I know that's what I wouldn't want for me.
And I know that's what I would want for my friends and my family, my loved ones.
You'd want that to be.
Absolutely.
I just wanna come onto the fact that you said about reciprocity, and I know I'm not pronouncing it correctly, but would you just explain what that's about, please? Yeah, so I think most people, I dunno.
I dunno whether you are familiar with a.
With a movement called CDOs Ruth.
If you're not, I would really recommend your listeners to go and look them up.
They are really interesting.
I won't go into the detail of CDOs, but they have six poor principles and the one I love the most is if you see somebody struggling, ask them to help you.
Not help them, but ask them to help you.
And I think I love that because I think that's so true.
We all need to be useful.
We all need to have purpose.
We all need to be not just a passive recipient of help, none of us thrive, without the ability to give as well as receive, to be to have purpose to contribute.
So I think for me, reciprocity is models that enable people who need help to also give.
So you so it's about the give and take in the support relationship.
One of our stories on the wiggle website is a family friend of mine.
She's got a pseudonym which I think is Anne, but I need to check that.
But she tells her story and she talks about how she's a lady in her early nineties, and she has help from a really big what they would call home care package.
I don't like that language.
But she has people coming into her house four times a day to help her.
And she talks about how they help her with the shower and the meals and all of that.
But they call her everyone's grandma.
Because all of them have personal issues and problems and she likes to chat and she's a really good advice giver? So she says, I spend so much of my time feeling like I am advising and supporting them as much as they're helping me? So I think for me, that's a really good example of reciprocity.
It's about giving models that allow you to give as well as receive.
That's pretty nice.
None of us should be passive recipients with needs, that need that, that are about us just getting help.
No, that's fascinating.
And it's about giving people purpose and meaning, and we all like to feel needed.
We all like to feel that actually somebody needs us, so it's not something that, it's new.
And I will definitely look that up and we'll put the link in the chat for the Camerados because I find that quite a fascinating thing to, to think about.
And it isn't something that, when you think about people in care homes that you think about, when I'm in a care home, I wouldn't be expecting somebody to say to me Ruth, could you help with? But actually, if I feel that I've got a need or a purpose, then that's gonna completely change how I feel.
I had two grandmas and that they're both died.
And my one grandma was in her mid nineties and she she was, I don't know, I'm gonna say lucky enough to die in her bed.
That sounds dreadful.
But we felt lucky to us.
Yes.
Felt lucky to, was calm and sweet.
And she would come to the house, she couldn't do a huge amount physically, but she would come to our house for a meal.
And we would take her the bowl of sprouts that were to be peeled, the sprout peeling job, and we she'd sit on the sofa and we'd take her bowl of sprouts and she would sit and peel these sprouts.
Happily and beautifully.
She'd been a school cook, okay? Yes.
In the day, right? Do you know what I mean? Peeling pounds of potatoes, I'm guessing.
And there's just something really.
She got a job to do that needs blinking doing, and the value in that, my other grandma ended up in a nice small care home, a third sector care home.
And she had been somebody who had looked after herself, who had welcome people into her home for lunch and had played chess with a friend.
And she ended up in this care home with no jobs to do.
No jobs to do.
She couldn't even make a cup of tea.
She couldn't even eat, it was a lovely, it was a nice place, don't get me wrong.
But she had no purpose.
None.
She, she couldn't peel a carrot.
She couldn't make a friend who came to visit a cup.
She couldn't, nothing.
No jobs, no hoovering, no.
And so there's something just just sit there.
Just sit there and watch the telly.
What can I, no, but am I allowed to? No.
But where am I know, so there's something about how do we build, how what kind of life is that, where we can't give, do, be, contribute.
Yes.
Yeah, that's huge.
And if somebody's been somebody that does those things in the past, you say a cook or a gardener or, all sorts of other things as well.
And there's probably things that people can contribute outside of the care home as well, especially with social media and things.
Now, I know when we met before, we were talking about the fact that people might have groups that they go onto, but actually has the care com got wifi and is it quite acceptable for them to put their laptop up and join whatever meeting it is that.
But they perhaps you or group they perhaps used to do before or even just to physically go there and is that something that somebody can get them there to whatever it was that they went? And when you talk about that distancing and and it isn't just about their help, Ruth, I, I think it's about people getting help at home, I think it's about different ways of enabling people to be themselves.
To stay connected with the people they care about to go to the places they love, to do the things they can and want to be, so I, think Care homes are in this mix.
I think home care is in this mix.
I think daytime support is in this mix.
I think this is about how can we enable people to give as well as take, and how can we enable them to be themselves, to live their life.
To retain their connections, to contribute to their community to do what they're good at for the whole of their lives.
Even if that's involving a degree or a lot of diminishment.
There's still always things.
My back in my, very early career, I.
Trained as a nurse for people with a learning disability, and some of the people that I would connect with were people that would be I'm gonna do the labeling again.
I don't like it, but people that would be labeled as having a profound and multiple learning disability.
So people who need help with everything to live their life.
We could always find ways for those individuals to contribute and to do things that had purpose.
Everybody can give.
Everybody can contribute.
Everybody has stuff that they're good at, that they care about, everybody, and I think our services and supports, many do.
Some don't, actually focus on that.
Last time when we called up, we had a chat the other day, and one of the things that I remember you saying, and I'm just looking back to it, is you spoke about.
When you're thinking about somebody, be it me or someone else, but there's that thing about who they have been or who I have been.
I'm gonna put the I, 'cause I know that's what you like to do.
Who I have been, who I am.
So who I am now, but also who I can be and who I will be.
And actually so often when we think about.
Getting to that point of needing care where if that's care at home or care going somewhere else for that care, it almost becomes, oh, we must find out who people have been, but we almost forget about who they are and that potential of who they might be.
And I'm not saying everybody forgets that.
I'm sure, as you say, I'm sure there's many, I.
Services and many people out there doing things that, that do remember that, but I don't think it's always quite so explicit in people's thoughts.
And actually by making it explicit, I wonder if that helps to frame it so it's more likely to happen.
I think you're absolutely right and I think.
Care and support services, are absolutely up against it in many instances.
Particularly those that are providing support to people who are funded by the state.
The money is not,, they really are up against it, so I think, and there are some stunningly good workers and organizations that are doing a fantastic job.
I don't think we should ever forget that.
But I do think there is something we, we often have a focus, particularly with older people, we have a focus on reminiscence, and unlocking past memories.
And I think that's a proven approach, to enabling people to engage and contribute.
But I think you are right.
I do sometimes wonder whether there's a second bit to that, which is now we've actually used the past.
To enable people to open up to us, how can we then start to use that in the present and the future, yeah.
So I think you're absolutely right.
I'm just gonna come back to the fact that you said that when you had your World Cafe, you spoke about people saying that some good examples and some.
Some not so good examples of things that happened when they talk about what had gone on.
But you also talked about the facts of people saying about what it is that they wanted.
So I'm just wondering if they can talk about what was it that people, what were the options people were talking about? What was it? Something beyond Home Care and care homes.
You've already talked about those coves and those housing, but I just wonder if you could paint a bit more of a picture for of that, in people's heads so that when people are thinking, oh, what will it look like where it helps us to move that shift, if you like, and disrupt our thoughts.
I think we did talk a little bit earlier, didn't we, about some of the different models and approaches that people talked about.
As I say, cooperatives.
Shared lives, co-housing, intergenerational approaches, cruise ships and Margo hotels lots and lots of very small care homes.
So there was a range of different models.
I think often the challenge when you start to have that kind of conversation is people only know what they know.
So they will tell you that they want this to be human and local and that for them to be able to keep doing what they do and to live their life, their way and how they, they can tell you how they, how we want to experience, care, what it wants to feel like.
But they may well not have the I don't know.
They, you don't know what you don't know, do you? So they may not know how the structures that would be needed to deliver that.
No.
So I think Sean and I have recently been, we did a presentation to a group of older people a couple of weeks ago.
And one of the questions that often comes up is yeah, but what else is there? If you're, if you are saying it's not about Care Homes and it's not about home care, what else is there? I think the first thing is we're not saying it's not about Care Homes, and it's not about home care.
I, I, I've got a good friend with a learning disability.
She lives in a Care home with 11 other peoples.
It's a 12 Beded Care Home.
One of the things that came out of our aspirations that some people did want very small Yes.
And local.
Care Home, for example.
So I think the first answer to the question is it could be radically different.
It could be just an adaptation of what we've got, it could be both.
I think it would be both.
But the answer to the, what else is the question is, I don't know whether we know that yet.
I think I've, in my past history done, been sent to other countries, and seen different models of care and support that may well have some residents here.
We have a amazing model.
We have things like shared lives that I think are not well, known, home share, key ring.
Cohousing, I think there are a lot of different approaches that, could add something really vibrant to this menu of choice that we're hoping to create.
It may well be that we have to, that we have to create some new ones, some hybrid ones some, some different ways of doing this.
We're starting as a, just this week actually we're starting in response to the, what else is their question? We're starting to capture some stories from some people who we know have created their own cook version of care and support.
So we are getting people to record their story.
What did they do? What did it create? What was the impact? And how, what, how did the money stack up? How did they make a different kind of social care, future work for them or somebody they, they care about? So hopefully we'll be able to aggregate those and put 'em on our website so that they start to together, they start to form a bit of a roadmap for people who might want to try and create something slightly different to the.
Mainstream large scale status quo services that we have coming.
Thank you.
And I know I got you to repeat a little bit there, but I thought it's just useful 'cause it was that in my mind it's still what does this look like? But actually that is part of that creativity.
But what I was thinking about when you were talking, and it came to me a bit earlier on as well to be honest, was around that when you talk about that Marigold hotel, and I hadn't thought about it before.
I've watched quite a few of the series, but.
I particularly remember the first series.
I think that was the one that was most impactful.
And what I was thinking about is actually the difference with that is that people went there to live and then they lived.
And the people that were there to support them supported them to live and go out and every day they were going out, oh, we're going here today, we're going this, we're gonna go and see what this is like.
We're gonna see what that is like.
But I don't think people think about that.
Within our society.
Oh, when, once you've gone to a place where you need support and or care, it's very much about just having support or care there.
And it isn't about, oh, actually there's this, there's that, and there's all these other things that it was almost like a part of it's changing attitude and the change in how we think as much as anything else to make sure it feels nicer.
I talk about outings.
Activities talks about outings and activities.
Like in their life, normal oh, I've got another one for you.
I talked about camera riders if people haven't come across.
Brian E.
Shannon.
Okay.
And her fantastic blog words that make me go that's she does a sterling job of producing a really accessible, splendid blog that challenges the language we use in health and social care.
And she unpicks different words, like her vulnerable packages frontline.
She takes the words and she explores their background and how we use them.
If people haven't come across briany that's another big recommend.
Okay.
So yes, I think there's definitely something about helping people live.
Not just not just get involved in activities and outings and have their needs met.
Yeah.
But to go out and live and to do things and experience or whether, yeah, to be, and to carry on being themselves and what they might be, rather than seeing it as a and probably one of those words that makes you go rather than deteriorating.
Yeah.
I think there's a degree of discard, isn't there? There's a degree of kind of yeah, there's a, there is a degree of discard.
I think we talk about putting people into care.
We talk about care placements that Brian is really big on that, on, on placing people like packages, that's one of her, one of her big, really good.
So there's something about a kind of a, they've gone to another place.
Not in a heaven kind of way, but in a.
In a, I don't know.
I don't, yeah and some of the language we use I think often belies what we're really thinking.
Yeah.
In, there's another one.
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah, go read Briany.
I could give you I could give you thousands of those.
Yeah, those kind of word things.
And every time she writes one, I go I do that all the time.
And then I have to try really hard to to change my language and be just really cognizant about how we talk about things.
Because I think really whilst that might look pedantic.
I don't think it is.
I think it's a ge putting a genuine mirror up to how, what we really feel, yeah.
Yeah, language is important, I think.
Yes.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I think language is massively important because it directly affects the culture and the way of thinking.
And actually what you are talking about here, you've talked about being a disruptor being disruptive, but also being creative and thinking about the new.
So I'm just going to ask Angela before we end and I could talk to you 'cause it's quite fascinating for a lot longer, but I'm just gonna ask you.
What would be your, what are your key mess messages and who needs to hear them and who needs to think about it? I think we would very much like people to just start to have this conversation, to ask that question.
And to not ask that question from the from the starting point of them.
But actually us, right? So me what do I want my social care future to look like when I get out? Or if I am already there and I'm seeing social care on my horizon.
So I think we really want people to start to have the conversation, the debate, round the dinner table, with friends in the pub, to not, I did a, I did another podcast with the Splendid Jill Phillips from, from whose shoes.
And we decided that what we always do is we go la.
Oh heck.
And that's what she called the podcast in the end.
Because there's something about we pretend it's not going to happen to us, and then it does.
So I think our key message would be, have the conversation open, that door that we don't want to look through, assume this is gonna happen to us.
And start to think about what we want it to look like when we get there.
Either for ourselves or somebody that we love and care about.
When I get old, we're trying to raise the issue of choice.
We're trying to raise the challenge of more and different.
We are pushing for the experiences that of social care that people.
Experience to mirror those aspirations that we talk more, mirror better the aspirations that.
People have told us about in the conversations and the survey.
So I think we'd like you to join us.
There's no, it doesn't cost nothing.
We aren't even really a thing yet, but come join us anyway.
And if you go to we go.org.uk,
you'll see there's a button there that says I'm in.
So we'd like people to.
To say I'm in.
I think we don't, we're early on a journey, Ruth, so I don't think we even really know where we're going.
We've got all sorts of ideas about how, what might happen next.
I'm sure that they will consolidate themselves into something useful in the next in the next few months.
We've got some splendid partners who have also got some great ideas.
I think our big message, our big plea is have the conversation, ask the question.
And if you find that what's gonna be on offer for you is not what you want.
Then start thinking about doing something about that.
Thank you, Angela.
And it's important to all of us.
So I don't think I've actually, I've been on your website.
I don't think I've clicked that button.
So I'm going to co, when I leave this conversation, I'm gonna go on there.
I'm gonna click that button and make sure that it's in the in the show notes along with all the other resources and that you've.
That you've mentioned.
So thank you so much for joining to me today.
It's been a really insightful conversation.
So many things that I hadn't really thought about, hadn't really considered, and yet you just brought those to the front of my mind and changed the way that I think, the way I may be, and the way I might respond to people as well.
Yes, and certainly where I will think about my language better and go onto those blocks and have a little look.
So thank you, Angela.
Byebye, thanks.
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