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Hamster Book Club - Amorality Tale by David Bishop (featuring Si Hart) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:00
Welcome back to the Hamster Book Club.
0:03
My name is Joe Ford and on his first solo, well, not not first
0:09
solo because he did do his top ten and bottom 10.
0:13
I did books. An outrageous selection of
0:16
books. May I say I have the magnificent
0:21
Mr. Cyhart Post Christmas. How are you doing?
0:24
I'm doing really well and I've had a really spectacularly good
0:28
book to read over Christmas. I'm very happy.
0:32
Compared to some of the shit you've had to read recently,
0:34
this is good. Trust me on this, all right?
0:40
So how was your Christmas? It was lovely.
0:42
Thank you. It was very quiet, but that was
0:44
that was good. Yeah.
0:46
It's been very relaxed and very chilled.
0:48
Was it full of Christmas food and good cheer?
0:51
Yes, there was lots of Christmas food, some of us, so we didn't
0:55
have Christmas pudding until about 9:00 on.
0:58
Christmas was there was there smog and mass deaths, people
1:03
being squeezed into cars and killed, zombie policemen coming
1:06
out of the fog, that sort of thing.
1:09
There was plenty of that, as it turned out, where I was
1:14
expecting Christmas 2024 to go, but hey it.
1:17
Sounds like the perfect Christmas for Doctor Who,
1:19
doesn't it? It does.
1:21
Well, look, before we go into our icebreaker question today,
1:25
why don't you tell everybody? Because we haven't mentioned it
1:28
yet what book we're going to be covering today.
1:31
Well, we are covering a book that was so close to getting in
1:35
my top 10 best of Doctor Who books ever that we decided we
1:40
would cover this one. And actually, having read it,
1:43
this is now very, very high up in my top ten of Doctor Who
1:46
books ever, and is one that this is the third time I have
1:50
revisited this book and that there are very few Doctor Who
1:54
books these days that I have read this many times.
1:57
So what when it first came out? Yeah, I did the audio book read
2:01
by Richard Franklin and brilliantly read by Richard
2:04
Franklin unexpectedly. And then I have read it this
2:08
time again, so three times for ABBC book.
2:12
I think it's the third time I've read this as well, and it's an
2:16
unusual Doctor Who book in that every time I've read it I've
2:19
liked it more because usually I go in the upper direction.
2:22
Oh yeah, usually it's I've read. I remember this.
2:25
Really fun. Oh no, that was terrible.
2:27
Yeah, but it was. Our thinking isn't usually my
2:29
reaction. So it is 2000 and twos past
2:35
Doctor adventure from the BBC with the 3rd Doctor and Sarah
2:39
Jane Smith. It is a morality tale by David
2:43
Bishop. It's it's a rarity, this you
2:47
don't get too many 3rd Doctor and Sarah Brooks and it's a
2:51
rarity on the book club because I have hardly covered any given
2:54
there are so many of them hardly covered any past Doctor
2:57
adventures. Yeah.
3:00
I think we were, we were saying something I've picked up from
3:02
all the sort of book club top 10s is that everyone tends to
3:06
dismiss the past doctor adventures and say, oh, well,
3:08
they're all traditional adventures.
3:10
They're all none of them are doing anything special.
3:12
None of, and actually quite a lot of them did really
3:17
interesting and different things.
3:19
Do you think that's why, like books like this can sneak in and
3:23
surprise you? You might sort of approach the
3:25
past doctor adventure and think, OK, so it's going to do
3:26
something trad, fine. And then you read it and go, Oh
3:29
my God, that's actually really good.
3:31
Yeah, I think so. I think people come into it and
3:35
be thinking, Oh yeah, oh, it's a, it's going to be a, it's a
3:39
Pertrian Sarah. So it'd be a unit adventure with
3:42
an alien invasion. And this does something so
3:45
completely different and unexpected.
3:48
It feels very new series before the new series.
3:53
And I think This is why it's it's why it sort of rewards I re
4:02
I reread every couple of years because it's doing things that
4:06
are so outside what the era would have done at the time, but
4:10
feels completely, absolutely right for the era.
4:14
I mean, it's not unlike, is it? Like you said, it should be unit
4:17
and an alien invasion. They do sort of team up with a
4:21
load of men with gums. They do.
4:26
Well, it's true. Yeah.
4:27
But it, it's such a different emphasis on that and such a
4:31
different way of doing it. It's, yeah, it's it's written
4:36
brilliantly. Boy, the characters, and we'll
4:38
get into the writing and the characters and all that
4:41
wonderful stuff. But first, I want to ask you
4:44
now. It's my first time to ask you an
4:46
icebreaker question. OK.
4:48
What doctor do you think translate that?
4:52
I'm talking classic doctors now. Translates best into print.
4:58
Like who's most vivid on the page?
5:01
I was thinking about this because you'd warned me that
5:03
this icebreaker question was coming up half an hour ago, so.
5:06
That's my usual technique. I'll give people about 30
5:09
minutes. Yep.
5:10
And you know what? My my immediate answer was one
5:15
that will probably surprise you, but I think it's Davison, I
5:20
think because. OK, Yeah.
5:24
Go on. Certainly for me, I think
5:26
because there isn't always a lot of character for the 5th Doctor
5:33
on TV that actually what the books brought out were those
5:38
inherent bits of his character. So his really dark, humorous
5:45
asides and that quick to anger wits that he's got, they brought
5:49
out his breathless enthusiasm for life.
5:53
And the thing that I, I really loved in Revelation and
5:57
something that the Virgin book sort of really pushed, was that
6:00
the 5th Doctor is the Doctor's moral compass and conscience
6:06
because of losing Adric. And because of all of that, he's
6:09
the one that has the sort of high moral scruples.
6:14
I'm not sure it's entirely true on TV, but that's sort of how
6:18
they pushed it. And I really love that.
6:20
And it comes out particularly in Confusion where he's so vivid
6:25
unexpectedly against the 7th Doctor Who is a much rounder and
6:31
had much more sort of character, some driven stuff through the
6:35
new adventures. But he holds his own on that.
6:37
And I think that's quite interesting because he's not
6:40
necessarily the one you'd pick, but think of the early missing
6:45
adventures. He's he's the central doctor.
6:48
He's the one that keeps coming back off opera.
6:51
Then the Crystal Cruise Cephalus, which is like 3 books
6:54
later or something. And he's, he's that one.
6:58
Those Virgin writers, they love Pierre Davidson's era, don't
7:00
they? Cornell and all of that into
7:04
right for. Because they were all the
7:05
teenagers, or sort of, who had grown up with him, so he was
7:11
their doctor, so they were desperate to get their hands on
7:13
him. Sort of skipping across sort of
7:16
past Doctor books. You know, I was really
7:18
struggling to think of really memorable 5th Doctor books.
7:21
I don't think he's served but like war mongers a terrible.
7:25
War monger doesn't serve anyone well, but I loved that one.
7:30
I was thinking about this, I love that one and I couldn't
7:32
think what it was called and I still can't think what it was
7:35
called. Where he's teamed up with 70s
7:36
unit. Oh, I don't know what that one
7:40
is. Not the King of Terror.
7:41
No, of God, no, no, no one has served well in the King of
7:44
Terror. I'm trying to see if I can see
7:45
it on the shelf, which I can't at the moment.
7:48
I'll tell you one which does serve him extremely well, and
7:51
it's another David Bishop book and it serves Nyssa really well
7:54
as well. That's Empire of Death.
7:56
Oh yes, that's a great and. Specific empire of death, may I
8:00
say one we had recently. Oh, and that brilliant cover of
8:04
him in the old diving suit where his face is just sort of there.
8:08
So he's just. Got such an intriguing notion of
8:11
it's ghosts of people that you've lost coming back to haunt
8:14
you. So this is his tree mass and the
8:17
doctors is Adric and it really like it haunts them throughout
8:22
that book. Yes.
8:23
So that's another thing that leads into oh, maybe I'll have
8:26
to give more Davidson to go then.
8:28
You know, he was quite vivid in golf opera, I remember.
8:30
Yeah, yeah. And I think the missing
8:33
adventure ones are are sort of his his peak ones.
8:37
But yeah, there's some some really interesting stuff for the
8:39
fight after the 5th Doctor. And there's also Zeta Minor,
8:43
which I'm not touching with a barge pole.
8:46
Yeah. And what was that early past
8:48
Doctor one? Oh, the ultimate treasure.
8:50
Oh. Terrible.
8:51
Yeah, but if you put Christopher Beulis with any past doctor,
8:56
you're not going to come out well.
8:58
Miserable. My answer to the same question
9:02
is maybe a bit predictable, but I just think there is so much in
9:06
the performance that you can put on the page.
9:09
I think Colin translates to the page really incredibly well
9:13
because you can do that sort of boisterous word play in the
9:16
dialogue, but also you can do the subtler, gentile character.
9:21
Yeah. And of course, the book started
9:23
that softening of the 6th Doctor's character sort of in
9:26
The Missing Adventures as well. So there was really like got
9:30
like big finish hat eventually found you've got a pretty blank
9:33
canvas for so much of the time that you can.
9:36
So much of that. Performance as well, exactly
9:39
that you've Colin's ticks exactly.
9:42
And it's the same with Hartnell, that Hartnell always comes over
9:45
really well because there are so many different ways you can
9:48
write Hartnell's Doctor. That is always vivid on the page
9:53
because you can absolutely see the mannerisms the whole time.
9:56
I mean. It helps as well.
9:57
I think that both the 6th Doctor and the 1st Doctor get just a
10:02
great, I think they get a really good run of books.
10:05
I love Blue Box. I love Shadow in the Glass.
10:08
I love Business Unusual. You know, the witch hunters.
10:13
I'm going to name a beauty. Killing.
10:14
I like city at wells end. I think it's really great source
10:18
of apprentice like there's just loads of great first the.
10:21
Plotters. The plotters is banger Jesus
10:25
killing ground like you said. Yeah.
10:27
Oh, I loved Killing Ground so much so.
10:29
Although I did do time of your life recently and I didn't like.
10:32
That I didn't like time of your life at the time and I didn't
10:34
like it subsequently so. But however, you and I will not
10:39
be talking about the first. We're going to talk about
10:42
Pertway. We keep coming back to Perth.
10:45
We season 11. This is a theme with us.
10:47
We, we rarely go anywhere else with her.
10:49
We, the two of us. To quote a recent line from the
10:54
ghost event space, think chronicity 5 Serendipity.
11:04
Well, do you want to start with the dogs then?
11:06
Because, I mean, he's sort of cameos in this book, doesn't he?
11:10
Yeah, it's, it's really fascinating and it's obviously
11:14
definitely something that they couldn't and wouldn't have done
11:17
on TV because Pert, we would not have stood for this.
11:21
But he is very, he's very sidelined until about 2/3 of the
11:27
way through the book. And that's really interesting
11:30
because usually his Doctor is front and center in any
11:34
adventure. And so immediately this is doing
11:36
something really different with the 3rd Doctor.
11:39
And it's very definitely set after Monster of Paladin,
11:43
because Sarah references the Doctor nearly dying in that.
11:47
And that since then he's not quite been himself and he's been
11:51
very quiet and sort of uninterested in things.
11:56
And so he's he's a presence in this book that's kind of there,
12:01
but he's not there. And so whenever you get a scene
12:04
with him, it it's really brilliant because you've been
12:07
anticipating this and waiting for this for all this time.
12:11
So funny he's got this watch menders shop.
12:14
So he's set up in 1950. Why is that?
12:16
Actually Sarah has presented the doctor.
12:19
She's been doing investigation, isn't she, into this smog that
12:23
came down in 1950s and murdered sort of four to 10,000 people?
12:29
And it's something that no one talks about, and yet it was a
12:31
horrific event. And it was a real life event as
12:34
well. It was in the crown in one of.
12:35
The IT was, yeah, they did an episode.
12:37
About and we'll get there. It's horrific, but there's a
12:42
photograph as she's doing these investigations of the doctor and
12:46
gangster mobster Tommy Ramsey having a handshake and she's
12:51
like, well when was this? And he goes, oh, Sarah, it
12:54
hasn't happened yet. Let's go.
12:57
Yeah. And that gets him into the
12:58
event. And it's literally he says.
12:59
Well, we'll go and find out. Yeah.
13:01
What a great way of using Sarah's like journalism.
13:05
Exactly the Doctor's responsibility to time.
13:07
Perfect reasons for them to be there.
13:09
Yep, and just that that initial image of him as the watch mender
13:15
in the shop. And my theory is I told you this
13:19
the other day. My theory is that this shop is
13:22
the same shop that the gangster breaks into in Invasion of the
13:27
Dinosaurs, and that's where he's where he's sort of set himself
13:30
because that's sort of a watchmakers and jewel makers.
13:33
And I'd yeah, it's probably not, but that's exactly how I imagine
13:36
it with all these clocks on the wall.
13:38
He walks in and goes, hey, I've been here before.
13:42
I never knew they were robbing me.
13:47
It's a lovely image though of him in Yeah, and I could see
13:49
Pert we're doing that. Oh absolutely, because he's
13:52
always tinkering with something anyway to be mending watches and
13:57
that sort of time thing absolutely works as an image.
14:01
And then in the same breath, Sarah Jane, who has to
14:05
ingratiate herself into the Ramsey mob somehow, she has to
14:09
find a way to get the Doctor and Tommy Ramsey close because they
14:12
have this picture taken. It has to happen because it has
14:16
happened. We're not going back to the
14:17
future. We're just assuming because that
14:19
picture exists. It's going to happen.
14:21
Yeah, so she's working as a go Go girl in the Red Room, isn't
14:26
she? Yes, and this is an incredible
14:31
book for Sarah and she has written so absolutely spot on
14:36
that you can. Everyone heard right.
14:38
Yeah, it's so well chosen. You can hear Liz Sladen saying
14:42
every single line and the way that she would have played the
14:46
scenes about sort of the casual sexism and misogyny that she is
14:52
is facing all the time and he right down to the disgruntled
14:56
way she would be walking around in high heels and not enjoying
15:01
any of that at all. You can absolutely see it.
15:03
I think the character sort of study of the Doctor and Sarah is
15:08
so good. They're so absolutely
15:11
beautifully written. And they only have a couple of
15:13
things together in this. She pretty much drives that
15:17
entire gangster plot herself. Yes, which shows you that's a
15:21
character with legs. Absolutely.
15:23
But because she's so, she's so stubborn and confident and, you
15:29
know, in your face, she catches his eye, doesn't she?
15:31
Tommy Ramsey? And he's like.
15:32
Yeah. Oh, straight away.
15:34
About I'm not going to have a woman telling me what to do.
15:37
But you know, in the back of his head, he's like.
15:41
Quite like this, yeah. And it's not quite a romance, is
15:46
it? But it's.
15:46
No, but it's just sort of a bit of mutual admiration.
15:51
And there there's some subtle lines all the way through where
15:54
some Sarah Jane says if he was a slightly different man, she
15:57
could really go for him. And there and she sort of
16:00
notices the kindness and softness in his eyes that not
16:03
everyone sees. And I think she sort of sees him
16:07
underneath this veneer and what he might have been if he wasn't
16:11
where he was. And in the same breath, there's
16:14
a few lines where he thinks God ever, you know, in any other
16:17
time if we weren't in this situation, Cool, dear Sarah
16:21
Jane. And and that's, that's really
16:25
good because she's, she is one of the few women other than his
16:30
mother, who stands up to him and tells him, tells him off because
16:35
it's very Sarah Jane to tell people off and say I'm not
16:38
having this and this is not on. You know what he graphs out of
16:41
David Bishop? That thing that Barry let's said
16:43
about Sarah, about Elizabeth Sladen, that she can show fear
16:46
and bravery in the same breath. And there's a scene where Tommy
16:49
grabs her arm and he's, I'm not sure if he's going to strike her
16:54
or throw her out the room or anything like that, but.
16:56
She. Refuses to give way as she looks
16:59
him right in the eye and says go on in even though she even
17:03
describes her as being clearly terrified, but she still.
17:06
And then he backs down. And so there's moments like that
17:10
where it's like bloody hell. And that's that sort of really
17:13
draws your attention and then they get really like gentle
17:15
moments where they sit around the table.
17:17
They're having a cup of tea together and.
17:20
Yeah, that that night where no one can sleep and they're
17:23
they're sort of sat up by the fire and just talking.
17:27
And he says there aren't many people that he lets in like
17:31
that, that he would do that with.
17:33
And he doesn't. There's sort of, I think there's
17:35
a bit sort of where we're sort of Privy to his thoughts where
17:38
it's like, I don't know why I'm doing this with this with this
17:41
woman. I wouldn't do this with any of
17:43
my men. And then in a really brilliant
17:46
moment, which I just adored, and I usually hate it when the new
17:50
series does this because it does it a lot.
17:52
I thought it was so well done here.
17:54
He figures out. He doesn't figure out she's a
17:56
time traveller from the future. And that's how it happens in the
17:58
new series. Oh, you're a time traveller.
18:00
You know, Shakespeare says that also.
18:02
No one would ever think that in a million years, He thinks.
18:05
He says, there's something different about you.
18:07
You don't belong here. What is it?
18:09
You're not like anybody else here.
18:11
And that's when she admits it all.
18:13
And he goes. You know what?
18:14
I've seen flying aliens about the place today.
18:16
Why not? Why not?
18:18
Exactly. And he just goes with it and
18:19
it's not. And I think this sort of show
18:22
that's really good work, character work for Tommy as
18:25
well, because this should be a really fuckish character who
18:32
doesn't accept things like that, who's not open minded.
18:35
But there's just something about him that's just that extra
18:38
little bit that makes him a rounded person and I think
18:42
that's that's brilliant. I sent you a message saying that
18:46
was a character that could have been fudged so spectacularly
18:50
because if you go too far down the thuggish route, then he's
18:54
just unpleasant and you don't like him.
18:57
And if you go too far down the he's very sweet route, it almost
19:01
feels like a parody of gangsters back in the day.
19:05
It's just right. So he's utterly unpredictable.
19:09
Like he's extremely violent. And yet he loves his mother, you
19:13
know, And he's just home cooking.
19:15
I get there's that moment where where he is with the doctor
19:21
towards the end and Bob Valentine, who make that made me
19:25
laugh because I always figure it's Rob Valentine now.
19:30
Who's the Joshie Crook? Robert Valentine.
19:33
We always knew it, but there's that moment where where he's
19:37
sort of coming out of this sort of, he's become some quite self
19:43
aware of what's happened to him and his life.
19:46
And he's going to take steps to to do it.
19:48
And he he gets the gun right up into Tommy and is going to shoot
19:52
him. And the doctor intervenes and
19:55
knocks it out. And then Tommy shoots him when
19:58
he's on the ground. And that's absolutely what that
20:02
character would do. And he's not listening.
20:05
He's not listening to the doctors, please, that you, you
20:08
don't go and kill people. He is absolutely true to
20:11
himself. And another author might have
20:14
said made him stop and think about what he was doing.
20:17
But this is a character that isn't going to change.
20:20
He is fundamentally himself. Is this is this?
20:25
I mean, it is because it works so well in this book.
20:28
But before you read this, if all I said to you right, we're going
20:31
to have Doctor Rudberg and it's going to be at the heart of
20:34
1950s gangster land, okay? It's really going to feature the
20:38
Doctor and it's just going to be about these thugs.
20:41
I mean, could you imagine that I would I would have gone.
20:44
That is an insane place and don't do it.
20:46
And when you say, yeah, and it's a season 11 perk, we adventure,
20:50
you think of all the doctors perk, we should not work in this
20:55
environment. He shouldn't be here.
20:58
And that's that's what makes it brilliant, I think, because this
21:02
isn't a place for the moral. Absolutely upright Dr. to be
21:12
because he's completely out of his depth, but he fits in
21:16
beautifully and that's the yeah, that's the weird thing.
21:20
And sometimes incongruous, like an incongruous Dr. in a story
21:24
they shouldn't fit in. It does work really well,
21:27
doesn't it? By the end of the story he's
21:29
forced into a position where he has to murder and it that
21:33
doesn't. And it's parallel.
21:35
Does it Like, unlike Tommy, who just picked up a gun and blew
21:38
someone's head off, the doctor commits effectively genocide at
21:42
the end of the story, and it weighs on him, he says.
21:46
I don't think I'll ever forgive myself for what I've done
21:48
tonight. And Tommy Ramsey's going well,
21:51
you saved today. What's wrong with you?
21:54
But that, yeah, that's the fascinating bit.
21:55
Because I there's, there's a bit of thing in the BBC books about
22:01
the Doctor and Sarah pairing and things going wrong for them at
22:06
this point. And this I found more jarring
22:09
than the stuff in Interference where the 3rd Doctor realizes
22:13
he's in an adventure that he shouldn't be in it, be in,
22:17
because he absolutely, definitely is in this one.
22:20
And he's going to be changed by it.
22:23
It hasn't got long to be changed by it, but he will be changed by
22:25
it. And that that sort of put you on
22:30
the back foot sort of straight away because it doesn't doesn't
22:35
feel right from the start. This isn't.
22:37
A doctor That story adventure, right?
22:39
Like Pert. We had so few stories in
22:41
history. Yeah.
22:42
Exactly. And I mean, this is only sort of
22:45
refreshed 20 years back from where they would have been
22:47
making it or whatever, but it's so refreshing to see see him
22:51
back in time. Do you know what David Bishop
22:53
does? So, and you know, we barely
22:55
mentioned him and he's done a brilliant job with this book.
22:57
Absolutely brilliant. I mean, I think Bishop is vastly
23:00
underrated as a writer. I loved Who killed Kennedy.
23:04
As I said, I love Empire of Death, some of his big finishes.
23:07
I just adore Enemy of the Daleks.
23:09
And what was that Unbound 1 he did?
23:12
Full Fathom 5 which has the same similar kind of atmosphere to
23:17
this. He also wrote the Domino effect,
23:19
but we'll forgive him for that because the rest was so good.
23:24
But the thing that he does is he's like, right, if I'm going
23:28
to set this in gangsterland, I'm really going to put my research
23:32
on the page. But I'm not going to do it in a
23:34
way that, you know, some writers can, or you get every single
23:38
detail. But he does explain how this
23:42
whole gangster situation works. All the areas that they do, all
23:46
the good they do for the community, all the threats that
23:49
they do as well. So it's very sort of nuanced.
23:52
You understand all the people in the gang and all the different
23:56
areas that they cover. And I just thought that was done
23:59
brilliantly in the first third of the book.
24:02
It felt effortless and it wasn't like it was a clunky.
24:07
And so this is what the gang did.
24:08
This is brick. He does this.
24:10
This is the IT all came out of the characters and their
24:13
interactions. And you get a real sense of
24:16
who's who. Because it starts with Tommy
24:18
coming back after being in prison and the sort of working
24:24
out what the state, Tommy working out what the status quo
24:27
is and who's taken the piss while he's been in in prison
24:30
and, and who hasn't and who's kept the firm going and who we
24:33
can trust and who we can't. And so you get sort of all those
24:37
early scenes of him going round to various parts of his gang,
24:40
catching up with them and sort of the various people that are
24:44
in his employ that he can't trust.
24:46
Which is how he meets Sarah and how she has worked out already
24:50
that the guy she's working for is it is a con man who's
24:54
screaming off half the profits and and things like that.
24:58
She's so great when she exposes him.
25:00
I love that and. She said, oh, and if you look in
25:02
this book then you'll see what the actual accounts are.
25:07
Take him outside. Bang.
25:08
Right. He's dead.
25:09
Yeah. Come with us, Sarah.
25:11
And there's also, while he's been away, this teenager has
25:14
been placed together a rival. Callum.
25:17
Callum. Yeah.
25:18
They've been putting together a rival gang and, you know, meet
25:22
us. It's like the Western in it.
25:23
Meet us at 12:00 outside. On the steps of the church,
25:27
yeah. And.
25:27
We're going to take you on. So you know, we're expecting
25:30
this massive fight, and that's basically the first half of the
25:33
book. It's getting to know the
25:34
gangsters, getting to know all those characters.
25:36
And and there's no alien influence or anything at all,
25:41
but you, you get a real sense of tension building up all all
25:45
through that way because you know something bad is about to
25:48
come and you keep talking. About the cold, didn't it?
25:50
He's talking about the cold. You know that fog is coming.
25:53
You don't know when, but you just know that.
25:55
Because it's coming, Yes. Because it's December as well,
25:58
so the days are short and cold and dark.
26:01
It's dark for a lot of this book, and then it gets darker
26:05
and darker and darker, obviously, as we go on.
26:08
What he does do almost imperceptible and I realized I
26:14
realized in the middle of the book as the fog here that he had
26:18
spent 125 pages getting me very close to a lot of characters
26:25
that yeah then gonna kill in the second-half of the book when the
26:28
in a. Really nasty way.
26:30
Yes, but do you know what? Right.
26:31
He does the thing that I really hate other writers doing, but he
26:34
does it so expertly and that he introduces a character with an
26:40
entire back story. And he keeps doing it even with
26:42
the major characters in this book and the minor ones as well
26:45
that are only in a few scenes. And he'll give you two or three
26:49
passages of a paragraph, sorry, of their back story.
26:54
Just really well written in a way that there were marriages
26:58
that had fallen apart. Oh yeah.
26:59
Oh, roses. Yeah, Rose, the the DOS
27:04
housekeeper, I mean, she's really well-rounded for a
27:08
character that isn't. She's in like. 14 central to the
27:11
to the to the plot, but she is, she comes off the page.
27:16
You can absolutely see her and her doomed marriage and and all
27:21
of that. She has.
27:22
She has this, you know, basically she got knocked up by
27:26
this man, this awful man, and her father dragged her around
27:30
there pregnant and said you're going to marry him.
27:32
And so she now she's been shackled to this horrible man.
27:36
Yeah, because he's Yeah. And because he's Catholic, he
27:38
won't give her a divorce and they're stuck together.
27:42
Miserable and then they're taken away.
27:44
People are starting to be taken away from their houses by the
27:47
policeman and put into these vans and it they think they're
27:51
being evacuated away from the smog, but it turns out those
27:54
vans are just being filled to capacity until those people are
27:57
crushed to death and killed and they realise this eventually.
28:02
I mean, I was getting concentration camp vibes.
28:04
It was really quite. Disturbing the way they're sort
28:06
of pushed in and it's like they're on a conveyor belt
28:09
that's move it and then they're getting more, more and more
28:13
people are, oh, it's horrible. Really horrible but but they
28:16
reach out and touch each others hands for the first time in
28:19
years and. And he called and there's that
28:22
poignant moment where just in the text is that she says she's
28:27
thinking and she said, and he, he called me by my name, which
28:31
he hadn't done for, for 10 years or, or something.
28:34
It's just like, wow. And then there's a scene where
28:38
she's been crushed to death and he's still alive and he's
28:41
cradling her body. Yeah, and he realizes.
28:45
What a waist. Arms, She's the only woman he
28:48
ever loved. It's too late to tell her.
28:50
And that's four scenes, right? Or two minor characters.
28:53
And those are the sort of characters that you just murder
28:55
off in Doctor Who all the time and we know nothing about.
28:57
But we have their whole back story.
28:59
And just that really well done. And just that wonderful moment,
29:02
it was one that I was texting you last night where I was
29:05
reading it, where they get on into the van and he, he's sort
29:10
of doing the very British thing of, oh, I wonder where they're
29:13
taking us. Oh, I hope it's somewhere where
29:14
the weather's better and everyone sort of laughs and it's
29:17
just that kind of right, very British kind of thing that we,
29:21
we're going, we're definitely going somewhere.
29:23
We'll make a joke of it. We'll make lights of it.
29:25
And then it gets worse and worse for them.
29:28
Even worse than that, and that that really was uncomfortable
29:33
and very touching as well, was Mary.
29:37
Oh God, that's heartbreaking and have three children and.
29:41
Take it back. All those times I said about
29:43
killing children and Doctor Who, I'll take it back now I've
29:47
experienced it and I don't want it again.
29:50
Because it was horrible and poor old bets.
29:53
Just. Oh boy, it was always the weak
29:55
child. And who's really susceptible to
29:58
this, to this smog and that they can't keep it out because
30:02
they've only got single glazed windows and the wood isn't is
30:06
warped slightly so you can't keep the bad air out.
30:10
And of course you've got the fire going.
30:11
So that's like, oh, it's describing.
30:15
He describes that as being born early and because of that she's
30:20
been sick her entire life. And then what moved me was that
30:26
they've already established that Sarah has gone round a few times
30:29
and has a relationship with Mary.
30:31
She knows that Bette is going to die that night and she just
30:35
stays and holds her hand and literally sees it through and
30:39
Sarah's super brave about it until the door is shut when she
30:44
goes after she's. There, and she breaks down
30:47
afterwards. I mean, that is really maturely
30:51
written. As beautiful character work
30:53
really, really good. And then it gets worse when Mary
30:57
knows, because Sarah's told her don't let the police in whatever
31:01
you do. And when they come knocking and
31:04
you know this is going to be bad and she locks her two children
31:08
under the stairs, we're. Going to play a game, hide and
31:11
seek, just stay under. There and takes the dead child
31:14
with her. Oh my God, it's heartbreaking.
31:18
And then she she goes and just think, in most of her Doctor Who
31:23
stories, this character would live because they've been good
31:27
and there's no salvation and she's not going to get out of
31:30
this. It's horrible.
31:32
And it's. Pretty up the point with the
31:34
latest Christmas special too much.
31:36
But you know, sometimes people dying in a Doctor Who story, it
31:39
can be genuinely impactful and this is a couple of really
31:44
strong examples. Exactly.
31:45
And these none of these are major characters.
31:48
They're there for sort of character within sort of the
31:54
East End and bringing the community together and sort of
31:57
Vera's reaction. Tommy's mom to to Mary is really
32:02
fantastic because she she is the most judgmental of Christian
32:07
woman women. And when Sarah says oh, goes
32:11
back to the house and and she said Oh well, that that child
32:16
deserved it. She was a bastard.
32:18
Oh my God, you think Sarah's gonna smack her, don't you?
32:21
Absolutely. And it's just the way even Sarah
32:23
Jane pushes the tea away, and that's as, yeah, angry as she
32:27
can show. And I'm going to bed.
32:30
Oh, so, so great. Well, I just mentioned the
32:32
Doctor Who Christmas special, so I do have a question I want to
32:35
ask you. Yeah, because it actually there
32:36
is an interesting parallel because I I had a really bad
32:42
reaction to using real life horrors in that Christmas
32:48
special, namely COVID. But this book is doing the same
32:53
thing. It's taking the deaths of
32:56
thousands of people and giving an alien explanation for it,
33:01
which obviously was not the reason that happened.
33:04
But this didn't bother me and I want to interrogate this a bit
33:07
as to why this didn't bother me as much.
33:10
Is Oh well, is it because it's not something we've lived
33:15
through? Possibly, I think.
33:18
I think time is a healer. Time is.
33:19
Definitely, absolutely. And sort of we've by the time
33:22
this was written, it had been 50 years since that had happened.
33:25
So you've got that degree of separation, maybe that that
33:29
helps. But also this reading this book
33:34
in 2002 was the 1st that I'd ever heard of this, this huge
33:39
thing that had happened because it was so covered up and not
33:42
talked about that it wasn't in sort of the, the sort of
33:49
register of huge things that happened in UK history.
33:53
And, and it should be because it's a it's, it's awful.
33:58
It's absolutely awful. And, and there's the note in the
34:01
back that David Bishop sort of puts a historical note in the
34:05
back about his his work. And what about how it was the
34:13
full extent of the tragedy was suppressed by the British
34:16
government of the time to prevent a greater outcry.
34:19
And so it wasn't talked about for a long, long time because it
34:24
was so awful for the people who who live for it and for the
34:28
thousands of people who died. I mean, there was up to 12,000
34:33
casualties in those four days. For me, this is like the the
34:37
massacre, Saint Bartholomew's Eve.
34:39
You know, it's a historical tragedy that I knew nothing
34:41
about. And so I kind of don't mind
34:44
Doctor Who taking it and educating me about it and yeah,
34:50
giving, giving those deaths and an alien catalyst.
34:55
You know, it's because the scene, the, the aliens of the
34:58
story bring down this missile to trap people, don't they?
35:02
And disorient them so, so they can process the people.
35:08
It just didn't bother me in the same way.
35:10
And no, I obviously live through COVID like everybody else and,
35:14
and that hits home. And I lost my mum at Christmas.
35:17
So that's why that that hit me really hard in that story.
35:20
Yeah. I don't know.
35:21
I don't know why it was different.
35:22
It was just was I just, I didn't mind it here.
35:26
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's a weird one, and we're probably all
35:29
guilty of double standards with this stuff, but I think it's
35:33
that it's like removal makes a. Line is different.
35:37
Do you think everybody's line of what's OK and what's not is
35:41
different? Like if Doctor Who did the Twin
35:43
Towers now, is that OK? No, I don't think.
35:46
I think there was something. Yeah, it's, it's yeah.
35:50
It's a strange one. But maybe in 50 years they will
35:53
be able to do that because it will have passed.
35:55
I mean, if they're angry about, if they're angry about COVID,
35:59
right, And they can put that on Christmas Day, surely then they
36:01
could give an alien reason as to why the twin towers went down,
36:05
which was, yeah, before that, unless people died.
36:08
Yeah, it's, it's that question of what's tasteful and what's
36:13
not, isn't it? It's yeah, it's a, it's a really
36:16
tricky 1. And in in some ways Doctor Who
36:18
should stick away, stay away from alien stories that that
36:25
sort of inspire, I think. But I mean, say the same thing
36:29
about the Great Fire of London being started by the
36:32
pterodactyls, you know, and it's just Doctor Who has always done
36:36
this, but. Maybe your own personal.
36:40
Experiences your your personal. Experiences inform your reaction
36:44
to this stuff, so each case is going to be different with each
36:48
person. Absolutely.
36:50
And I mean, I mean, with the Twin Towers, I had a huge row
36:54
one day where I said that was that was a huge tragedy.
36:59
But I couldn't take it in because my nephew was, was was a
37:04
week old and having heart surgery that day.
37:06
And that was where my head was. And someone told me off because
37:10
I didn't care for the huge a tragedy that was going on.
37:14
And it's just that huge. We all have this.
37:17
Sorry, they're all. Compass about these things that.
37:20
You know, you remember, you know, obviously all the Ukraine
37:24
nastiness and all that's going on over there, We've all just
37:27
turned away from it. We've all turned away from it
37:29
and we've gone, OK, it's happening.
37:31
But I cannot possibly think about death on that scale every
37:36
single day. So I'm going to choose to ignore
37:39
it. Just get on with my life.
37:41
I've always you just couldn't function I don't think.
37:44
No, I don't. Well, I Yeah.
37:46
And there are people who can't because they're listening to all
37:50
this stuff every day. So I don't know, it's a
37:54
swinging. It's such a yeah, I'm going to
37:56
say it's such a big question that I don't think we can answer
37:59
that. Although it's been, it's been.
38:00
Interesting to, yeah. Because, you know, like, I have
38:06
not been quiet about my reaction to the Christmas special.
38:08
And now I'm going to put this episode out saying what great
38:11
tragedy that occurred in the middle of London.
38:13
Wow. That was a great Doctor Who
38:15
book. You know, I just don't think
38:18
there was anything too disrespectful.
38:20
And I think the impact, the impact on the characters,
38:26
whatever the reason that smog came down, the impact on the
38:29
characters felt real and horrible and unfair.
38:34
And I think in the Christmas special, the impact of COVID was
38:38
romanticized somewhat and we all became lovely beautiful stars or
38:43
something. Yes, whereas this is just this
38:48
really not the main this was although they said this was set
38:52
by the aliens, The actual process of how it then got worse
39:00
and worse and worse is actually what happened.
39:03
You know, it's all the coal fires going, it's everyone
39:07
burning their coal at home and just that continual pumping out
39:12
of stuff the whole time making it and no way to clear it.
39:16
Just to try and warble themselves up.
39:18
Oh, it's horrible. Yeah, absolutely.
39:21
Didn't that didn't that lead to an axe that meant?
39:25
Yeah, the Clean Air Acts came because of that.
39:27
And no more coal in domestic use and things like that.
39:31
It's yeah, not to that extent. So.
39:34
I mean, so I was really happy to be educated.
39:38
Yeah, all of that. And because this book has taken
39:40
such a character first approach, I felt the impact of.
39:45
That on the on that community. So, but yeah, so badly at the
39:49
start of the book is I wouldn't say it's a thriving community.
39:52
It's a working class community. It's being controlled by the
39:55
gangsters. Yeah, but it's a close knit
39:57
community. Yeah, exactly.
39:59
And by the end of it, there's been mass murder and horrible
40:03
things have happened. Even Mrs. Ramsey's come at Tommy
40:06
with her knitting needles. Well, look, should we touch on
40:12
some of the peripheral but important characters?
40:15
I really want to talk about Brick.
40:17
Brick. I knew you were going to say
40:19
Brick because he's so well-rounded, and one of the
40:23
most touching moments of the whole book is where he loses his
40:27
pigeons. My God.
40:29
And they're his. You get the sense that they're
40:31
his whole life, and that's the one thing he really cares about.
40:35
And they die because of the smog, because they're outside.
40:38
And it's just. Wow, beautiful moment where
40:41
before the smog comes down where Sarah just goes and hangs out
40:44
with him. I can't remember his name.
40:47
Arthur. Arthur, that's it, she calls.
40:49
And she is, yeah. And and there's that moment
40:51
where he says, oh, you, you and Tommy are the only people who
40:54
call me by my actual name. Everyone else calls me Brick.
40:57
His prized possession, the pigeon.
40:59
He lets her hold it and stroke his head, and it's just a tender
41:03
moment between two people. Not twee, not overly sensitive.
41:07
It's lovely, but it's absolutely in character.
41:11
And it's totally getting us into our full sense of security for
41:14
the moment where Sarah comes up later in the book and all the
41:18
pigeons are dead. Yes.
41:20
Oh God, yeah. And he's so sad.
41:23
He's saying I couldn't save any of them.
41:26
And he's so sweet, and everyone sees him as as brick this big,
41:31
the strongman, the one who's going to do all Tommy's hard
41:37
work. He's the one that they're all
41:38
intimidated by. And yet he is underneath it all.
41:43
And this is where, again, David Bishop's attention to the
41:46
characters. He's not how he appears.
41:49
He's a gentle person underneath, but he'd do anything for Tommy.
41:54
It's like Sarah, Tommy is his best friend, and so he would do
41:58
anything for him. And that parallel that he's
42:01
Tommye companion, the way that Sarah is the Doctor's one.
42:04
But they've got characters underneath that you don't
42:07
necessarily see. It's really, really good.
42:10
And when he sacrifice, I usually hate a sacrifice at the end.
42:13
Yeah. Oh yeah, of course.
42:15
Because we all know he's going to do, because he'd do anything
42:18
for Tommy. And he does.
42:20
It's the Co charmers effect, you know, But but it just feels
42:25
right, doesn't it? Because he's been so loyal to
42:27
him throughout the whole thing And it it means at the end of
42:30
the book, Sarah gets to be so angry.
42:33
When you told me she gets that furious scene with him because
42:37
of that and. He was 10 times the man you
42:40
were. And he was.
42:41
Yeah, what about Vera? Oh, Vera, I could absolutely, I
42:47
could absolutely see her. I know what she looks like.
42:51
I know what she sounds like. Do you know what she sounds A.
42:53
Bit like dot common dot common. What did you called Julie
42:59
Walters? Yeah, I could see.
43:01
That waters, right? Like, you know, the Mrs. Overall
43:03
look, Yeah, as a serious. Oh yeah.
43:06
Definitely in the housecoat and. As a serious role, you know, and
43:11
she's she married a man who died and she had Tommy Ramsey through
43:17
the map and no man was ever going to match up to.
43:20
Oh no man will ever met up to my Brian.
43:23
She polishes, you know, his pictures every day and all of
43:26
this. Yeah.
43:27
And she. Absolutely.
43:28
She is absolutely an East End archetype.
43:32
There's so many women like that. Provides all the grub for
43:35
everybody, yeah. She's just constantly cooking
43:37
and making tea and just that that that bit where Sarah says
43:42
and it's just like the vegetables have been boiled to
43:46
where they just become coloured mush.
43:49
And I just think, yeah, that's how my grandma.
43:51
Used my nan as well. My nanny's Steptoe.
43:54
You could spread her vegetables on toast, yeah.
43:57
Absolutely. Yeah, just.
43:58
Vile. Salty as anything, the whole lot
44:01
she. Boiled them for like 3 hours.
44:03
Sorry, yeah. I know it's weird, but yeah,
44:07
she's definitely that kind of woman and and she just likes
44:10
everyone eating their grub. Oh, you're growing, lads.
44:14
She walks around the community and she knows the position that
44:17
she's got. Oh, absolutely.
44:19
She is the queen of that. So she's sort of like Peggy
44:23
Mitchell or whatever in EastEnders, you know, she's
44:26
that. She's the matriarch of that
44:28
whole community and doors sort of open for her, and she's the
44:34
first one to get the bread of life from the shop because she's
44:38
the queen of this whole thing and everyone knows that if she
44:42
didn't, there would be hell to pay.
44:45
And yet in the same breath, and this is what I love about this
44:48
book, is there's like two sides to every character.
44:51
She's the first one to go to the church and make big donations to
44:54
the church. She's a staunchly religious
44:56
woman. She believes in the community
44:59
and looking after people. And like you say, she's a mother
45:03
to all those people in her home. And yeah, she doesn't drink.
45:06
She has to. She doesn't because and if
45:07
people don't eat her food, she's like, she's looking at them, you
45:11
know, like eat it. It's, yeah, it's, it's a, a
45:16
fascinating figure and we we touched on her, her religion,
45:19
making her really judge mental about the people around her and
45:24
how she looks down on the people down the streets who aren't her,
45:29
aren't living up to her expectations.
45:31
But at the end, she does the right thing and she takes those
45:34
two children in and she didn't have to, but she does it because
45:39
fundamentally, underneath all of that, she is a good person.
45:43
It's just the way it comes out doesn't always come out the best
45:46
way. I hate it when I'm obviously
45:50
being emotionally manipulated by books, and very often with
45:54
Doctor Who books, some of them are unskilled writers and it's
45:57
just so obvious what's going on. He just captured something in
46:02
this book about these characters having their good sides and
46:08
their bad sides making bad decisions and good decisions in
46:11
a way that it was really moving. I had Goosey's at some point
46:15
when I was reading this book of like, wow, that was really
46:19
unexpected. I didn't see that coming from
46:21
that character. Every character is nuanced and
46:25
they're not just one thing. They're real people because
46:28
we're all full of contradictions and, and all of that and double
46:32
standards. The whole lot of us, even me,
46:34
especially me, Jesus Christ, you know, and, and so just to sort
46:39
of reflect that in every character is is really good
46:44
because as we said, this could have been such a stereotypical
46:47
East End story. You know, there are so many
46:50
stories of this ilk that where where you've got a gangster
46:55
family and it could be so wrong. But he's he's just so.
46:59
Skilful Terrance, right? Terrance would have written
47:02
because he would have loved to have done a 50s gangster doctor,
47:06
because he loves gangsters. He does blood, Blood Harvest,
47:09
doesn't he? You know, Chicago mobsters.
47:11
But it would have been much more comic book, a lot more obvious,
47:15
a lot funnier. It would have been.
47:17
Yeah, absolutely. But.
47:18
Wouldn't be as moving. No, And that's what what we get,
47:21
right? Because there's a tragedy at the
47:23
heart of this story. You've got to get those
47:26
characters right, otherwise the tragedy isn't going to work.
47:29
Because if you're not invested in this people, it's not going
47:32
to work for you. The thing he keeps coming back
47:34
to as well is like, these people live hard, graft lives, Yeah.
47:39
And at the moment of their death, they think, you know
47:41
what? I've.
47:42
I've done all this my. Life.
47:44
I think that's Mary's last thought.
47:45
I've struggled all my life. I've had a few moments of
47:47
pleasure. Yeah.
47:49
And now this is it. I was like, oh man, oh man, I
47:52
want to live a good life after this.
47:57
It's yeah, it's interesting to sort of.
47:59
Two of the other characters are the police characters.
48:03
So we've got is it Hodges and Diggle?
48:06
Yeah. And they're.
48:08
Yeah. And they're really interesting
48:09
because you've got the one is the jaded seen this all before?
48:14
Police officer who knows his place, knows the community,
48:18
knows what he can get away with and what you can't, but it
48:22
doesn't necessarily mean he's doing any good.
48:25
And the new rookie police of constable coming in who's full
48:30
of ambition and wanted to make do the right thing.
48:34
And that there's a comment where where he's warning where the old
48:39
one is warning him off saying don't go to this fight.
48:42
We don't get involved. This is a local matter.
48:44
They will a community matter. They will sort it out.
48:47
And just that moment of said, but that's not right.
48:51
And he goes doesn't. He and he goes, yeah, and and he
48:55
sees Unspoall Horan. You know, it's when the
48:57
policemen are all taken over at the end.
48:59
Yeah. And then eventually the Doctor
49:01
distracts the the aliens. So they they sort of come to
49:04
their senses and they're processing all these dead
49:06
humans. Yeah.
49:07
And they've got to pretend to keep going, otherwise they're
49:10
going to be killed. And there's that, that bit isn't
49:12
there, where Hodges says he's, he's still stripping the bodies,
49:15
Yeah. Oh.
49:16
Wow, how? Yeah, and the young officer
49:20
shoots himself because he can't deal with what he's done and
49:24
what he's been involved with. And that's all right.
49:27
That's horrible, but real. I mean, we're.
49:29
Making this book sound really sort of horrific.
49:32
It it does have its moments, but it has a lot of heart as well.
49:36
It absolutely. Yeah, and it's not, it's not
49:40
completely grim. There are moments of real humour
49:43
and, and, and things that come out of this as well and.
49:46
Cleverness is as well like we I'll talk about Xavier Simmons
49:51
now, Father Xavier Simmons, who's the new priest across from
49:55
America. He's atoning for his sins
49:58
because he killed a man once and and now he's trying to make good
50:02
and he creates this bread of life, you know, factory and
50:06
they're, they're going to give cheap bread to the community.
50:09
Yeah. And it's a very clever twist,
50:12
because it turns out that the bread is full of psychotropic.
50:15
Drugs and he's and he's a Zen and you know, I've read this
50:20
book every all these times and I can always completely forget
50:24
that twist. It's always a real surprise.
50:28
Of course, yes. My, my one issue, I'll just say
50:31
I had one issue with this you did is I got to the middle part
50:34
of the book and the aliens showed up and I was like.
50:38
Oh, I don't want them. Here's the Doctor Who part of
50:40
the book, because I was having It was so great that first half
50:44
the character was just one. That you just want to hang out
50:47
with these people. It's even though they're all
50:50
despicable and horrible. There probably is another book
50:53
here without floating aliens with hundreds of eyes whipping
50:57
around and and, you know, policemen.
51:01
But we need something for the doctor to face off against.
51:05
And that's that did work. I thought they did Climax worked
51:08
extremely well. But until then, I thought the
51:10
aliens, well, they were pretty good, you know?
51:12
And I like the way that they're a triumvirate.
51:14
Yeah, and they will talk over each other.
51:17
Clicked sentences a bit like you and me right now.
51:20
Absolutely. We are not seeing everybody.
51:23
And they do to the Third Doctor what the Great One does make try
51:28
and get him under their control and and sort of push him to do
51:32
things that he wouldn't do. And oh.
51:34
They breathe, Sarah, don't they? And murder.
51:36
Her, absolutely, yeah. And and all of that.
51:41
And this really fits the world weary version of the 3rd Doctor
51:46
we've got here that he's just, he's too tired to deal with them
51:51
effectively. And you think season 8 per we
51:53
would have been on his moral high ground, hands on hips with
51:56
the Cape flying behind him, striding against this.
52:00
But here he's so worn down by everything that he hasn't got
52:05
the energy needed to keep going. And there's that moment where he
52:09
kind of gives in and says, oh, you win.
52:13
And it's just like, no, this doctor doesn't do that.
52:17
But of course he hasn't given in but.
52:18
Even better, right? He's created this time bomb,
52:21
hasn't he? So basically he's going to age
52:23
them to death. That's his solution.
52:26
Because there's no other way they're killing thousands of
52:27
people. It's an extreme reaction to
52:30
extreme terrorism. Yes.
52:32
And he. But he still says to them, I'm
52:35
giving you a warning now you've got a chance to go yeah, I do
52:39
not want to do this to you. And so, and I thought, you know,
52:42
this was the new adventure, 7th Doctor.
52:44
He just, he just acted. Yeah, he wouldn't give her
52:47
warning. That's absolutely Pertwee's
52:49
doctor, isn't it? He's a moral force, isn't he?
52:51
Yes, exactly. And that's how he how he keeps
52:56
going in this amoral situation because it's an amorality tale
53:02
and he's dealing with with Tommy, who would be, who would
53:06
have no compulsion and no compunction in doing that.
53:09
He would just do it, but he always gives them the chance.
53:13
So even even better, yeah, you get the warning, then you get
53:17
the ACT, which is horrific as they are all waged to death, and
53:20
then you get 3 separate perspectives on the morality of
53:24
that situation afterwards. Oh, there's that marvellous
53:29
moment where sort of afterwards Sarah says to the Doctor, oh, he
53:34
reminds me of the Brigadier. And the Doctor just looks at her
53:37
and says, no, he is nothing like the Brigadier and walks away.
53:43
Oh, wow. Yeah.
53:44
And, and this is a Doctor Who at this point in his life has
53:49
completely fallen in love with the Brigadier.
53:52
But the early Brigadier of the Pertwee era did do things like
53:58
Tommy and did do that. But he has learned because he's
54:02
been with the Doctor and just that that moment was a real
54:05
stand out is so simple but so effective.
54:10
Yeah, I, I, I really can't find too much to fall about.
54:16
This, no. And This is why I think now this
54:18
should have been at the very top of my favorite Doctor Who
54:21
fiction books, because this is, is this a spectacular book?
54:26
And there's. No right to be this good.
54:27
It's. A bit sort of hidden and
54:29
uncelebrated. Yeah, it's kind of not.
54:32
People go and find it, you know, listen well.
54:34
I do hope so because I think people would get so much out of
54:37
it. I put up my usual sort of
54:39
egotistical picture of me reading the latest object book
54:42
on social media, and I had two or three people get in touch and
54:44
say, oh, I loved. That book, and I think people
54:48
genuinely do like it. It's just no one ever talks
54:50
about it. It's kind of because there were
54:52
so many because it's not part of the 8th Doctor arc or it's not a
54:57
new adventure. Like we said, the and with your
55:01
top 10's, the past Doctor adventures get so dismissed as
55:04
one great big of of some traditional stories that every
55:11
so often you get something that is so out of the ordinary that
55:14
it it really stands out and it should be celebrated more.
55:18
I feel like so many Doctor Who book writers, especially in the
55:22
New Adventures and the Edas. And, you know, I love the Edas
55:25
and there are New Adventures that I love.
55:26
Yeah. They're always trying to make an
55:27
impact somehow. They're trying to they're trying
55:30
to shock you somehow or make it the biggest story ever.
55:33
The whole of the university, the Elder Gods and all of this
55:37
bullshit, you know, or 100 million wells were wiped out or
55:41
80% of the population were killed.
55:44
No, this is this brings it all down.
55:47
A real life horrible thing that happened to such an intimate
55:52
level character focused. This is how these books should
55:56
be written, I think. Absolutely.
55:58
And you know, and it does lovely said all the way through.
56:02
It does lovely things with the Doctor and Sarah.
56:04
And so all their interactions are really beautiful.
56:07
The moments where they're in the TARDIS console room and he's
56:12
he's busy building something and she comes in and they just talk
56:15
about the paradox of this and why they've got to do it.
56:19
And. Crossed doesn't.
56:20
He gets angry. He does.
56:22
He gets crossed because she can't understand why, why they
56:26
can't just go and leave or or whatever and why they're doing
56:29
this. And it's just it's.
56:31
A sort of scene I would have loved to have seen Pertway in
56:33
Slayton. Yeah, and absolutely.
56:35
And you can see he would be cupping her, her face like in
56:38
Death to the Daleks, that lovely moment at the end, because
56:42
there's a real bond between them and she can argue back at him.
56:46
And they have this to and fro all the time.
56:50
And it's not just on one level that this is a friendship that
56:54
is sort of crossing these things.
56:55
And because the doctor's not involved with the community like
56:58
she is, he's seeing it in a completely different way to her.
57:03
There's a beautiful friendship between the 4th Doctor and Sarah
57:06
Jane. I think there's an intimacy
57:08
between the 3rd Doctor and Sarah Jane that's really undervalued
57:12
and people don't think about enough.
57:15
At the end of the book. I mean, I wrote down the quote.
57:16
He goes, I may never forgive myself for this data.
57:19
And she goes, you did what you had to do.
57:21
That doesn't make it right. Murder can never be justified.
57:25
You can see Burt was staring straight at the camera on you.
57:30
Absolutely. And it's just when they go off.
57:33
It was, yeah. When when Tommy has his part in
57:38
scene with Sarah, what I really love is, is she's basically
57:41
says, you know, the the way you treat women is outrageous.
57:45
And he yes, no, I'm really sorry, Sarah.
57:47
I live in a different world from you.
57:49
Your morals don't work for me. So he refuses to change and
57:54
absolutely how it should be. Yeah, because he is a character
57:57
that really would refuse to change and he he's going to get
58:01
lost somewhere in the 60s when things do change and he's going
58:05
to be left behind. I will find a way.
58:08
He's an entrepreneur. Absolutely.
58:11
But yeah, I mean, and it's just fascinating to see this
58:14
community will go on despite this tragedy because there is a
58:17
bond between all those people. It's.
58:21
Yeah. And it finishes with with
58:23
business as usual for Tommy. The doctor and Sarah walk off
58:26
and he's straight on someone complaining about something.
58:29
And we need to do this. And no, we're not having that
58:32
disrespect. And off we go again.
58:35
He's done what? Smack him.
58:39
OK, well, then the last question I'm going to ask you about
58:41
because we sort of touched on the characters.
58:43
We've touched on the plot. What did you think about the
58:46
writing style here? What do you think about David
58:48
Bishop's prose? It's so unshowy you don't notice
58:54
how well written it is and that's that's a real compliment.
58:59
It's the term sticks thing of writing in a simple way, but
59:04
it's more effective for that. There's not huge passages of
59:07
description, there's not huge flowery language.
59:10
It's quite to the point, but it absolutely works for this story.
59:15
And I think that's that. Yeah, it's it's beautifully
59:19
done. I felt that he correctly in my
59:23
eye, gave longer passages to character moments and shorter
59:30
passages to action. So yes, any action was
59:33
happening. I mean, there was wonderful
59:34
scenes at the end of the book of zombie policemen.
59:37
Yeah, with half their faces shot off.
59:39
Or in flames coming through the fog.
59:42
You know, imagine the silhouette of a policeman in flames coming
59:44
through the fog. Exactly.
59:46
And the. Fog is beautifully described
59:49
through it all with the the the colour of it and the thickness
59:54
of it and you get a real visceral sense of it choking
59:57
people. But the action itself, like when
59:59
people's heads are blown off, things like that, it's literally
1:00:02
he blew his head off and your imagination can do the rest.
1:00:05
Yeah, it's not. Dwelling.
1:00:06
On it then. Oh, you know, the viscous blood
1:00:10
dripped everywhere, splattered together.
1:00:12
Yeah. The New Adventures approach of
1:00:14
Yeah. Martyr Approach.
1:00:17
Which can be affected but it also it can be overwritten as
1:00:20
well. Exactly.
1:00:21
And I think that would have been too much in this because it is a
1:00:25
violent book, but the violence isn't dwelled upon.
1:00:29
His attention to detail was the subtleties in the character
1:00:33
interaction. Yes, and people's body language
1:00:36
and how they are with each. Other and all of that.
1:00:38
And you could absolutely see each scene because you knew
1:00:42
where people were, what where, what the room was like that they
1:00:47
were in or whatever. And you had a real sense of
1:00:49
place and position in all of that.
1:00:53
So the scenes in the kitchen where they're all around the
1:00:56
table, you could absolutely see where everyone is with the brown
1:01:00
teapot in the middle, always there and always hot and every
1:01:04
everything like that. Really.
1:01:07
Yeah, the sense of place is really great.
1:01:10
After reading such gems as The Dalek Generation, which were so
1:01:14
overwritten, you know, were torturing adjectives as the book
1:01:18
went along, I just have come to appreciate.
1:01:21
I've recently read The Year of Intelligent Tigers, which was
1:01:23
very simply written and hit his mark.
1:01:26
I've read this. This was very simply written,
1:01:29
but nuance for it. I think I prefer this approach
1:01:32
now. Absolutely.
1:01:35
Paul Mars does the same things as well.
1:01:36
He uses, I mean, he uses some complicated words, but he does
1:01:39
simple sentences that just impact, you know, the way they
1:01:43
should. And I think because his
1:01:46
background is as an editor and a writer, was he a.
1:01:50
Journalist. I'm not sure.
1:01:53
I think it always feels like he should be a journalist because
1:01:56
of who killed Kennedy, but I don't think he is looking at
1:02:00
this, no. He spent a decade editing comics
1:02:04
in London, became a freelance wife and became a freelance
1:02:07
writer. So he's learnt the craft of
1:02:10
doing it by editing before he he wrote himself.
1:02:14
And I think that really shows he's got a mature approach to
1:02:17
this. Whereas so many of the other
1:02:19
people are new writers who think the key is overwriting and it's
1:02:24
not at all. It's as we've said many a time,
1:02:29
and it's so much harder to write simply than it is to to write
1:02:35
sort of flowery prose. He came in, didn't he, at the
1:02:38
tail end of Virgin with who killed Kennedy.
1:02:40
I think that's his only Virgin book.
1:02:42
Isn't it? That was, yeah.
1:02:43
And and this was his first book for the BBC.
1:02:45
So the BBC books have been going for a long time before he he did
1:02:48
one. And then he did quite a few in
1:02:50
succession, didn't they? Yes.
1:02:52
Because I think they realised they'd got a bit of a, a gem of
1:02:55
a writer here. And I look.
1:02:57
Forward to exploring more of David Bishops because I he
1:03:00
really can write. And trust me, not all of these
1:03:03
Doctor Who books that writers can write.
1:03:05
It's true. Well, summarise your thoughts
1:03:09
then on A and what a wonderful title that is as well.
1:03:12
A morality tale. It's such a absolutely.
1:03:14
It works on. Yeah, it's absolutely perfect.
1:03:17
I mean This is why they literally could have called it a
1:03:20
space morality tale. Exactly.
1:03:22
And it would have worked. Exactly.
1:03:23
Yeah, but but everyone in it is completely and utterly amoral.
1:03:29
And. It has a moral ending.
1:03:32
It just works on on all those all those levels.
1:03:35
I think this is a quietly brilliant gem that deserves to
1:03:38
be more more well known and more celebrated.
1:03:43
I'm I've really, really enjoyed the last few days being immersed
1:03:49
back into this world and it's, yeah, it's just quietly
1:03:55
brilliant. And yeah, please, if you've
1:03:58
never read it, find a copy and read it, because you will not
1:04:01
regret it. Do you reckon people should read
1:04:04
it or listen to it? Oh, I think read it.
1:04:08
I mean, Richard frankly does it really well, but I there's
1:04:13
something about reading the book that gives it that intimacy
1:04:17
because you're right there with it.
1:04:19
Otherwise, we've got someone else's interpretation of those
1:04:22
characters, and that's fine. And that's what what people love
1:04:25
in an audio book. But there's just something about
1:04:30
sitting and reading in the dark. And I read this in December,
1:04:33
which is absolutely the perfect time to read this book as well.
1:04:37
Blood is freezing some days that.
1:04:39
The Yeah. And yesterday as I was finishing
1:04:41
it, it was so misty and it. Was last night it was.
1:04:45
Yeah, it was just like, Oh my God, if this had just been more
1:04:48
yellow, this would be. I thought if a fucking policeman
1:04:51
comes to my door, I'm not answering it out of my.
1:04:54
Skin. Just have this Bedford van here
1:04:57
if you'd care to come with me. I thought I'd get lucky.
1:05:01
Yeah, So, you know, it's one that just deserves a bit more
1:05:05
celebration. And I'm sorry, David Bishop, you
1:05:08
should have been in my top ten and you should have been really
1:05:10
near the top because this is, I think this is one of the few
1:05:14
Doctor Who books that I will keep going back to every few
1:05:17
years because I just want to go back to that world.
1:05:21
I just want to be with these people.
1:05:22
Yeah, and I don't like them, but I really, I really love what he
1:05:26
did with them. Oh.
1:05:27
See, I did quite like that recently, Fraser and I had a bit
1:05:30
of a Barney, you know, on the series 6 strictly or we're
1:05:33
talking about Red Bull flesh and the almost people.
1:05:35
And he was saying, well, you know, they're all nuanced
1:05:37
characters. That's why they're neither
1:05:39
villain nor victim. And I was like, no, Fraser,
1:05:41
they're just badly written. They can't decide from 1 scene
1:05:45
to the next whether somebody is a villain or an awful gang of
1:05:48
woman. What's her name?
1:05:49
I forget now you know what I mean.
1:05:51
Yeah, I do, but I can't pick what her name.
1:05:54
Jennifer that's it. This is how you do it.
1:05:56
This is how you write characters that are very likeable and do
1:06:00
terrible things. But you still end up admiring.
1:06:04
I mean, Tommy is so nuanced. It's, it's untrue.
1:06:07
It's like the Cray twins in the Legend film, which, yeah, where
1:06:13
you come away admiring them but also completely and utterly
1:06:17
hating them for all the things they do, but you can't help.
1:06:20
You can see why people were so charmed by these these
1:06:23
characters in the East End back in the day.
1:06:26
It's. Like, I mean, every show's sort
1:06:27
of got what it's like Garrack in Deep Space 9, isn't it?
1:06:30
You know, awful man, that you just absolutely adore him.
1:06:33
Yeah, exactly. Because they're not just black
1:06:37
and white, they're full of Shades of Grey and some of
1:06:41
there's some good underneath it all.
1:06:43
What I truly appreciated about the approach here was because I,
1:06:47
I find a lot of the time the right really with a book here,
1:06:51
with a Doctor Who book that here's your chance to really get
1:06:54
in the head of your characters. And they still go plot first.
1:06:58
Yeah. And the characters are like a
1:06:59
side note. I've just recently done Time of
1:07:01
Your Life and I didn't know who any of those characters were.
1:07:04
It was just plot, plot, plot, action, action, action.
1:07:06
Whereas it's all character, every single scene is from the
1:07:10
point of view of a really interesting character, giving
1:07:14
you all all all of the detail that you need for the characters
1:07:18
function within the book to hit you around the face.
1:07:21
Yes, and that's why it works and why it's worth revisiting.
1:07:27
Well, I mean, I don't think we could possibly say any nicer
1:07:29
things about this book. No.
1:07:31
Well, I, I think we're, yeah, we, we've, we've, we've started
1:07:34
at the top and now we're only going to go down.
1:07:37
We've run out of superlatives, but I mean, I was so pleased you
1:07:41
enjoyed it. I suppose my last question for
1:07:44
you should be where are we going next?
1:07:47
Well, I mean, there's a whole world of adventure out there,
1:07:50
but I think we're going to to go and explore one of the again,
1:07:56
lesser celebrated works by by the recently deceased David A
1:08:01
McKinsey. And we're going to do another
1:08:04
past doctor adventure and go for the 11th Tiger.
1:08:08
I you better if you want superlatives, you will not be
1:08:12
disappointed because when I read The 11th Tiger I loved it so
1:08:17
much. Well, there we go.
1:08:21
I know and I really enjoyed it too.
1:08:23
So again, I think maybe this is my task for for the book club is
1:08:28
to come and celebrate. By the gems.
1:08:30
Adventures. Find all the gems.
1:08:32
Find those good ones and amongst them all, I.
1:08:35
Mean, you fucking have William Hartle's First Doctor doing the
1:08:38
Yoda scene from Star Wars. Oh, it's just great.
1:08:44
I mean, what a what a huge loss to Doctor Who.
1:08:48
Absolutely, yeah. And it's an incredible body of
1:08:51
work he put together. And not all of it is is great,
1:08:59
but it's always interesting and he always picks really
1:09:03
fascinating stuff to talk about. What's great about McKinsey is
1:09:07
he covers practically every, I think he does every doctor at
1:09:11
some point. Yeah.
1:09:12
And he writes like anybody that does that prolific amount of
1:09:16
output. He writes some truly, truly
1:09:19
wonderful books. Sanctuary, I think, is
1:09:21
wonderful. Oh, Sanctuary is incredible,
1:09:23
Yeah. But he also is perfectly able of
1:09:27
writing some total tribe as well, like Awesome Mist.
1:09:31
What else we got in there? What am I forgetting?
1:09:33
Lord of the Storm? Do you know what I mean?
1:09:35
Like you don't hear every time it just is.
1:09:38
I mean, except. A real Star Trek.
1:09:41
Of course. Sigh.
1:09:42
When you're on it, we hit. Every time, of course.
1:09:46
Well, of course. But yeah, no, no, but it's such
1:09:49
a yeah, a varied breadth of work and I so I've got 5 separate
1:09:53
book clubs covering 5 different McKinsey.
1:09:56
Wow. OK, from the spectacular to the
1:10:00
Oh my God, I don't want to pick that up again.
1:10:06
What's fascinating is we we thought we were going to talk
1:10:09
about one David A Mckinty book and then decided we were going
1:10:12
to talk about a completely different 1 after.
1:10:15
All right, that is right. Yeah.
1:10:17
We've gone from one that we didn't enjoy so much to one that
1:10:19
I think we're going to enjoy a lot.
1:10:21
Yes. Well, do you fancy a trip to
1:10:23
China then? Well, why not?
1:10:27
You could wear that costume from Marco Polo that Ian wears all
1:10:30
right. Oh well, I love that costume so
1:10:32
that will be fine. I just happened to have a Barber
1:10:35
chunky jumper here so. We're we're set up then.
1:10:38
Get your samurai swords. Let's go.
1:10:43
I'll come in there.