Latest / Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm / Nuclear Fusion Breakthrough: The Tokamak Energy Story | Dr. David Kingham

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Nuclear Fusion Breakthrough: The Tokamak Energy Story | Dr. David Kingham · Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm

• 0:00
  David Kingham: In a lot of, um, publicly funded programs, you have the big risk of, um, sunk cost argument.
• 0:08
  David Kingham: You know, we spent 30 million pounds on this.
• 0:11
  David Kingham: We have to proceed now.
• 0:13
  David Kingham: We never got into any, any of that sort of thinking.
• 0:18
  David Kingham: Uh, some of our very early shareholders said, you know, never take a decision to push on if the evidence doesn't support it.
• 0:29
  David Kingham: Um, and so we cut, you know, we cut a few things, learned fast, forced ourselves to do things with.
• 0:41
  David Kingham: Modest resources.
• 0:43
  Chris Reichhelm: Welcome to the Lab to Market Leadership podcast.
• 0:46
  Chris Reichhelm: Too many advanced science and engineering companies fail to deliver their innovations from the lab to the market.
• 0:53
  Chris Reichhelm: We are on a mission to change that.
• 0:55
  Chris Reichhelm: My name is Chris Reichhelm, and I'm the founder and CEO of Deep Tech leaders.
• 1:00
  Chris Reichhelm: Each week we speak with some of the world's leading entrepreneurs, investors, corporates, and policy makers about what it takes to succeed on the lab to market journey.
• 1:10
  Chris Reichhelm: Join us.
• 1:12
  Chris Reichhelm: Deep Tech is often associated with moonshot technology programs, and fewer programs can be considered more moonshot than nuclear fusion for years.
• 1:23
  Chris Reichhelm: It's always been one of those things that's 30 years away, but is it still with all of the development and all of the technology and all of the investment happening into fusion, are we getting closer?
• 1:37
  Chris Reichhelm: To help me answer this, I'm joined by Dr. David Kingham.
• 1:40
  Chris Reichhelm: The founder and original CEO of a company called Tokamak Energy.
• 1:45
  Chris Reichhelm: Tokamak could be one of the companies that helps us realize the benefits of nuclear fusion by the development of something called a spherical tokamak.
• 1:54
  Chris Reichhelm: If you don't know what that is, that's okay.
• 1:56
  Chris Reichhelm: I promise you'll find out with David.
• 1:59
  Chris Reichhelm: Today, I want to get into their lab to market journey.
• 2:02
  Chris Reichhelm: I wanna understand the types of milestones that have guided them from science Project is something more resembling a business.
• 2:09
  Chris Reichhelm: I wanna understand the skills, the experience, and the talents required to do really big things, things at the scale of a new form of energy generation.
• 2:20
  Chris Reichhelm: This is gonna be a great show.
• 2:22
  Chris Reichhelm: I hope you enjoy it.
• 2:23
  Chris Reichhelm: Let's get into it.
• 2:28
  Chris Reichhelm: David Kingham, thank you so much for joining me.
• 2:31
  David Kingham: Thanks, Chris.
• 2:32
  David Kingham: It's a pleasure to be with you today.
• 2:35
  Chris Reichhelm: As a founder and as a chief executive of the, the first Chief Executive of Tokamak Energy, I am thrilled to have you on the show and to learn more about the evolution of what has become.
• 2:52
  Chris Reichhelm: I think, uh, and it's no exaggeration to say this, one of the leading nuclear fusion companies in the world today, um, uh, promoting the spherical Tokamak design and, uh, it would be great to understand the lab to market journey that Tokamak has been on.
• 3:11
  Chris Reichhelm: And so as you've been around for this journey, uh, journey, I feel very fortunate to have you te take us back, if you would, to the beginning and you know Sure.
• 3:23
  Chris Reichhelm: What, you know, where did all of this start?
• 3:28
  David Kingham: Yes, it's been quite a long journey so far, and there's a few more miles to go.
• 3:34
  David Kingham: Um, so 15 years ago I teamed up with two scientists from the UK Government Research Laboratory, um, working on Fusion.
• 3:46
  David Kingham: And it would be fair to say they were frustrated by the slow progress, particularly of very large, um, government fusion programs.
• 3:57
  David Kingham: Um, in and now these two guys, Alan Sykes and Mikhail Gryaznevich had had fantastic success in the 1990s with a small spherical Tokamak.
• 4:11
  David Kingham: It had achieved record results, um, and was recognized, um, by US and UK government as being a very promising route to commercial fusion energy.
• 4:26
  David Kingham: But it was kind of lost in the noise behind the excitement of the Jet Tokamak at Culham, which achieved 16 megawatts of fusion power.
• 4:39
  David Kingham: So there was this little high performance device and a fantastic big 16 megawatt, um, fusion reactor.
• 4:49
  David Kingham: Uh, and then the whole world decided that, um, scaling up the jet tokamak, the one that achieved its 16 megawatts, scaling that up was the right way to go.
• 5:03
  David Kingham: And you know, we didn't all think that.
• 5:05
  David Kingham: Some of us thought I had to be a, uh, an alternative way to go, which might be faster and, um, more commercially relevant.
• 5:16
  Chris Reichhelm: Mm-hmm.
• 5:17
  Chris Reichhelm: And in those early days, was it just the three of you or were you starting to pull together the early foundation for a team?
• 5:25
  Chris Reichhelm: Beyond just the founders, really,
• 5:27
  David Kingham: just, yeah, just the three of us took, you know, a few helpers at the very early stage, and then some investors started to come in.
• 5:39
  David Kingham: Um, we were very fortunate with early investors.
• 5:43
  David Kingham: Um, we had, um, what, what is now the UK Science and Innovation Seed Fund, um, that's designed to help spin out technologies from government labs.
• 5:56
  David Kingham: Um, we had an investment from Oxford Instruments, uh, uh, superconducting magnet business, um, and from Sir Martin and Audrey Wood, um, who were the founders of Oxford Instruments, who really had a passion for getting small businesses started.
• 6:16
  David Kingham: So the, the, they were very much part of the team early on.
• 6:21
  Chris Reichhelm: And, and what is the focus about developing or scaling up that token Mac?
• 6:28
  David Kingham: Um, the initial focus was initially we thought fusion energy is, is too much for us to attempt.
• 6:39
  David Kingham: Um, and we should look at the spherical Tokamak as a scientific instrument with high performance plasmas.
• 6:48
  David Kingham: Mm-hmm.
• 6:48
  David Kingham: And basically wait until someone else comes up with some other innovation.
• 6:55
  David Kingham: Um, and we had an internal debate at the time around high temperature superconductors and, uh, chief scientist Mikhail Gryaznevichvi was, you know, saying, this has to happen.
• 7:08
  David Kingham: We, we need this new material.
• 7:12
  David Kingham: And I kept saying, well, it, that's fine, but it's not, um, manufactured as a.
• 7:19
  David Kingham: Usable engineering material yet.
• 7:24
  David Kingham: Um, and, you know, but he was, he was, he was right.
• 7:29
  David Kingham: We had to have it and I was right at the time.
• 7:33
  David Kingham: It wasn't ready.
• 7:34
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 7:35
  David Kingham: But, uh, 2011, a guy at Oxford Instruments told us that they'd had a new batch of high temperature superconductor, uh, from a company called Superpower in, in the U.S. and that it was ready to use to make magnets.
• 7:53
  David Kingham: It was good enough.
• 7:55
  David Kingham: Um, so we thought, well, we better try it.
• 8:00
  David Kingham: So at that stage, Mikhail phoned up his friends in Prague and said, can I borrow your tokamak, uh, for the summer to do an experiment?
• 8:11
  David Kingham: And, I mean, Tokamak are not very common devices, so this is one big ask.
• 8:17
  David Kingham: So they said, um, well, you can, you can borrow it for two weeks.
• 8:23
  David Kingham: Um, at which stage we thought, can you really put a magnet on a Tokamak and two weeks?
• 8:31
  David Kingham: And, and the well, the answer is yes you can.
• 8:35
  David Kingham: So long as you've got everything prepared beforehand.
• 8:38
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 8:39
  David Kingham: So this is, um, I mean it was a very, um, uh, Heath Robinson sort of, uh, yeah.
• 8:46
  David Kingham: Experiment involving a cryostat made of plywood, some aluminum foil so that it didn't leak and you could pour liquid nitrogen in, uh, and then a coil was wound out of 25 meters of this superconductor.
• 9:06
  David Kingham: We worked out how to connect.
• 9:08
  David Kingham: A power supply to the superconductor and it all sort of boiled and fizzed, but it worked.
• 9:16
  David Kingham: It worked.
• 9:17
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 9:17
  David Kingham: We produced a, a significant mag magnetic field with very rudimentary set up and engineering and the talk mat worked.
• 9:28
  David Kingham: So, um, so then we went to, um, investors who were interested and said, actually this new material does the job we hoped, um, and we can see how to make more powerful magnets using this material.
• 9:48
  David Kingham: And it gives us a route to commercial fusion energy.
• 9:53
  David Kingham: Um, yes.
• 9:53
  David Kingham: And then we worked out all the other things we'd need to do on, on, on that journey.
• 10:01
  Chris Reichhelm: So, so that actually, you know, so getting to that, that milestone, if you will.
• 10:07
  Chris Reichhelm: So experimenting with this new material, the Heath Robinson approach you took to kind of validate that initial approach and the material.
• 10:16
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Chris Reichhelm: How many people did you have in the company at that point?
• 10:20
  David Kingham: Um, three.
• 10:24
  David Kingham: Okay.
• 10:24
  David Kingham: Three.
• 10:25
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 10:25
  David Kingham: Three of us at that point?
• 10:26
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 10:27
  Chris Reichhelm: And I mean, we had capital.
• 10:30
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 10:31
  David Kingham: How much capital.
• 10:31
  David Kingham: But you had help from others too.
• 10:34
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 10:34
  Chris Reichhelm: And how much
• 10:34
  David Kingham: capital had you raised as well?
• 10:37
  David Kingham: About $200 million.
• 10:39
  David Kingham: Two?
• 10:39
  David Kingham: No, about $200,000.
• 10:42
  David Kingham: Two.
• 10:42
  David Kingham: Okay.
• 10:45
  Chris Reichhelm: Hundred thousand dollars.
• 10:46
  Chris Reichhelm: Alright.
• 10:47
  Chris Reichhelm: So $200,000 raised at that point.
• 10:50
  Chris Reichhelm: Three people.
• 10:52
  Chris Reichhelm: And you had already come to a conclusion, hey, if we can now just continue to focus on this and build this and scale this up, we can get to a point that doesn't, that seems like actually a reasonable return given the amount of money invested.
• 11:05
  Chris Reichhelm: Sure.
• 11:06
  Chris Reichhelm: And, uh, and the talent that you had on board.
• 11:09
  David Kingham: Yeah, and we were, we were certainly first to really see that, um, high temperature superconductors could be used successfully to make magnets for magnetic confinement fusion when, when the material had first been discovered in 1987, lots of people were speculating that it could be useful for fusion.
• 11:32
  David Kingham: But then everything went quiet because manufacturing the superconductor was so difficult.
• 11:39
  David Kingham: It was only 2011 really, that the manufacturers had worked how to make the material, uh, that we're now able to use.
• 11:51
  Chris Reichhelm: And did Oxford Instruments continue to act as a partner or supplier to Tokamak energy, or did you have to go off and do this yourself?
• 12:00
  David Kingham: Um, yeah.
• 12:01
  David Kingham: So Oxford Instruments then worked with us for another four years mm-hmm.
• 12:06
  David Kingham: To scale up the technology.
• 12:09
  David Kingham: We were both learning about the material and the technology as, as we went forward, but we needed their superconducting magnet expertise.
• 12:20
  David Kingham: And we got to 2015 when we were able to demonstrate a plasma for over 24 hours in a small Tokamak constructed with high temperature superconducting magnets.
• 12:34
  David Kingham: Um, and that was a big milestone for the company.
• 12:38
  David Kingham: And that Yes, meant we could raise, um, about $15 million, um, okay.
• 12:44
  David Kingham: To really push things forward.
• 12:47
  Chris Reichhelm: And so, David, in terms of technology readiness level, at this point, by 2015 you get to that next milestone, where would you say you were at that point?
• 12:56
  David Kingham: Um.
• 12:58
  David Kingham: Yeah, it's technology, redness level two or three.
• 13:02
  David Kingham: I mean, it's, it's
• 13:03
  Chris Reichhelm: okay.
• 13:04
  Chris Reichhelm: A functional, functional time approach.
• 13:05
  Chris Reichhelm: Time.
• 13:06
  Chris Reichhelm: So this is still a function of research.
• 13:07
  Chris Reichhelm: This is a functional pro.
• 13:08
  Chris Reichhelm: Okay.
• 13:09
  Chris Reichhelm: Oh, that's interesting.
• 13:10
  Chris Reichhelm: Yep.
• 13:10
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 13:10
  Chris Reichhelm: Alright.
• 13:11
  Chris Reichhelm: So you've, okay, so you're still very early stage there, but you've got enough to contain plasma, is that right?
• 13:19
  Chris Reichhelm: Am I understanding that correctly?
• 13:21
  Chris Reichhelm: To contain plasma for a period of 24 hours using materials and systems that would broadly be in place within a fully scaled Tokamak
• 13:31
  David Kingham: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:33
  David Kingham: No modest experiment by today's standards.
• 13:36
  David Kingham: Sure.
• 13:36
  David Kingham: But, but it, it, yeah.
• 13:38
  David Kingham: Did the job.
• 13:39
  David Kingham: Um, at that point we decided this, this superconducting material, this fantastic material, um, we need to build our own team.
• 13:52
  David Kingham: We can't be reliant on someone else to do the development because we want to go at, at our pace.
• 13:58
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 13:58
  David Kingham: Um, so we, but by then we had enough credibility, enough people knew about us that we could recruit a really good team and, and then you, you get this effect that, um, we're trying to build a business based on fusion and superconducting magnets and we're in a place Oxford, where there's 50 years history of research in tokamaks and 60 or 70 years history of research in superconducting magnets.
• 14:35
  David Kingham: Mm-hmm.
• 14:35
  David Kingham: So you've got all this human capital in the area.
• 14:37
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 14:38
  David Kingham: That makes it feasible to do really difficult things.
• 14:43
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 14:44
  Chris Reichhelm: Some segments of the deep tech universe are associated with science projects.
• 14:50
  Chris Reichhelm: More than businesses.
• 14:51
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 14:52
  Chris Reichhelm: And for many nuclear fusion has been one of those, the big Sure.
• 14:55
  Chris Reichhelm: You know, the big adage with nuclear fusion was it's always 30 years away.
• 14:59
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 15:00
  Chris Reichhelm: And in until now, one gets the sense.
• 15:03
  Chris Reichhelm: Now hopefully it's not another 30 years.
• 15:05
  Chris Reichhelm: One gets the sense we're closing in on it.
• 15:08
  Chris Reichhelm: At what point was 2015 the point for you guys where it stuck, it shifted from kind of science project to now business?
• 15:20
  David Kingham: Um, no, I think it was still, still a science project at that stage.
• 15:25
  David Kingham: Um, if we a, after 2015 we, we were still, um, judging success of the business and, and reporting to shareholders based on technical progress.
• 15:40
  David Kingham: Um, there were no sort of commercial milestones.
• 15:43
  David Kingham: We weren't promising to sell anything to anybody.
• 15:46
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 15:47
  David Kingham: Um, we set a series of milestones, which were.
• 15:51
  David Kingham: Achieving a three Tesla magnet, a five Tesla magnet.
• 15:56
  David Kingham: Okay.
• 15:56
  David Kingham: Going up to 10.
• 15:58
  David Kingham: I mean, Tesla is a, a measure of magnetic field, uh, strength.
• 16:04
  David Kingham: Um, conventional superconductors can typically get up a bit above 10.
• 16:09
  David Kingham: Tesla.
• 16:11
  David Kingham: High temperature superconductors have the promise of getting to 25 Tesla, 30 Tesla or more if you need it.
• 16:20
  David Kingham: And they can do that in a fusion device, um, which low temperature superconductors really, really can't do.
• 16:29
  David Kingham: So we had to have these goals for increasing field strength.
• 16:35
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 16:36
  David Kingham: And we also set, um, a really big goal infusion of getting to 100 million degree plasma temperature.
• 16:46
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 16:47
  David Kingham: Um, now.
• 16:49
  David Kingham: In retrospect, why is that important?
• 16:51
  David Kingham: So, a hundred million degrees is, is really the threshold for necessary for commercial fusion energy.
• 16:59
  David Kingham: If you have a temperature that high, you get, um, energetic collisions between ions and that significantly increases the probability of fusion reactions happening.
• 17:12
  David Kingham: So you, you have to get your plasma to that sort of a hundred million degree and above temperature, and it doesn't matter whether it's a to America, spherical to America accelerator or laser inertial fusion, you still have to get your plasma to hundred million degrees.
• 17:32
  David Kingham: So you get collisions are energetic enough.
• 17:35
  David Kingham: So the combine and produce.
• 17:40
  Chris Reichhelm: Okay, so that's interesting.
• 17:42
  Chris Reichhelm: Regardless of the design, then that 100 million degrees is absolutely critical so that you create Yep.
• 17:48
  Chris Reichhelm: What sounds like the conditions for fusion then to start taking place.
• 17:53
  David Kingham: Yep.
• 17:53
  David Kingham: So we set that goal.
• 17:55
  David Kingham: Our next device we will reach a hundred million degrees and, um, very few fusion devices have actually reached that temperature.
• 18:10
  David Kingham: Um, the JET tokamak in the uk, TFTR in, in the states, a Japanese tokamak and more recently the National Ignition Facility in the States have gotta the, that sort of temperature.
• 18:26
  David Kingham: But yes, nothing, nothing else has,'cause it's really, really difficult.
• 18:33
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 18:35
  David Kingham: So.
• 18:37
  Chris Reichhelm: Now, if I may, let me ask a question.
• 18:39
  Chris Reichhelm: Early investors who are coming in to support the development of Tokamak Energy, and we've talked about how, uh, it, it, it's still, and it sounds like it had to continue being a science project in order for you to at least be able to demonstrate that the vehicle you were creating was capable of creating the conditions For sure.
• 19:04
  Chris Reichhelm: The type of energy you're trying to generate.
• 19:06
  Chris Reichhelm: And so, uh, but were they, how does that work from, you know, your perspective as a company trying to generate investment to keep yourselves going, knowing that there's no immediate prospect of commercial activity?
• 19:25
  David Kingham: Yeah, the a hundred million degree target was really agreed with the, with the shareholders, with the investors, um, as being.
• 19:37
  David Kingham: Necessary, but perhaps not sufficient to take us all the way to Yes.
• 19:43
  David Kingham: Uh, fusion energy.
• 19:44
  David Kingham: Commercial fusion energy.
• 19:46
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 19:47
  David Kingham: And, um, so they were very happy with, you know, that bold goal.
• 19:56
  David Kingham: Uh, and then what has happened in, in practice is, um, that the, the business has moved from trying to do everything itself into much more of a partnership collaboration model with government and with other private companies.
• 20:20
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 20:20
  David Kingham: So our market position now is, um, we know how to build tokamaks.
• 20:29
  David Kingham: We know how to build high temperature superconducting magnets.
• 20:33
  David Kingham: We know about plasma control systems and so forth.
• 20:37
  David Kingham: Those, those all work fine.
• 20:40
  David Kingham: Um, so we are nicely positioned to be a partner in major government funded projects.
• 20:49
  David Kingham: For example, in the uk in Japan, milestone driven program in the States.
• 20:56
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 20:56
  David Kingham: So we're looking for, um, alliances, collaborations to take the technology forward.
• 21:05
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 21:06
  David Kingham: We're looking in some cases for governments to be the customer.
• 21:09
  David Kingham: Um, yes.
• 21:11
  David Kingham: At development, uh, in other cases to be the co-funder.
• 21:16
  David Kingham: Um, so we're using shareholders funds very efficiently.
• 21:22
  Chris Reichhelm: Mm-hmm.
• 21:23
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, but at the early stage then, so up until this point, I guess it's a matter of.
• 21:30
  Chris Reichhelm: Targeting the right kind of investors who see the world in a slightly different way, who I'm guessing, for lack of a better term, are just the most extraordinarily long sighted investors who believe in the, in the, in the potential impact of what you, of what can be created directly and indirectly.
• 21:54
  Chris Reichhelm: Sure.
• 21:55
  Chris Reichhelm: Is that a fair assessment?
• 21:57
  David Kingham: Yeah, I think that's e exactly right.
• 21:59
  David Kingham: That our early investors, um, liked the scientific argument, the spherical Tokamak being very efficient, and they love the properties, the fundamental properties of the high temperature superconductor.
• 22:15
  David Kingham: Uh, I mean, it's a material that delivers, uh, huge current densities, uh, even in a strong magnetic field.
• 22:25
  David Kingham: Even at relatively high temperatures, like 20 degrees above absolute zero.
• 22:31
  David Kingham: Um, so our investors could easily see the potential, even if, you know, the business model might need to change over time.
• 22:45
  David Kingham: Uh, yes.
• 22:46
  David Kingham: To get the whole, get the whole job done.
• 22:48
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 22:49
  David Kingham: Um, yeah.
• 22:51
  David Kingham: So, and of course you
• 22:52
  Chris Reichhelm: were the CEO from the early days.
• 22:56
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 22:56
  Chris Reichhelm: And you mentioned 2015 you hurt your, you, you achieved, uh, another significant milestone and that thereafter you, it was still a science project, but with the raising of an additional 15 million pounds, uh, you could move forward in a, in a, in a way with clear targets, even on some of those future technical milestones.
• 23:21
  Chris Reichhelm: At what point, David, did you feel that it was time to hand over the reins to a new CEO?
• 23:29
  David Kingham: Right.
• 23:29
  David Kingham: So, um, this was about 2017.
• 23:33
  David Kingham: Um, our a hundred million degree.
• 23:36
  David Kingham: Uh, target was still a bit out of reach.
• 23:39
  David Kingham: Um, but we had achieved an intermediate target of 15 million degree plasma temperature.
• 23:46
  David Kingham: Um, which is not insignificant achievement.
• 23:51
  David Kingham: It's hotter than the center of the sun.
• 23:54
  David Kingham: Um, but we realized there was some serious engineering to do to, um, really get through a a and some clever physics to be done to, yes, to get through to a hundred million degrees.
• 24:11
  David Kingham: Um, so we did several things there.
• 24:14
  David Kingham: Um, it was pretty clear we needed stronger engineering leadership.
• 24:19
  David Kingham: I'm really a theoretical physicist by training, so it's time for me to step, uh, into a support more of a supporting role.
• 24:28
  David Kingham: Um, get an engineering chief executive in.
• 24:33
  David Kingham: Um, then, uh, we also established a collaboration with Princeton and Oak Ridge National Labs in the states funded by US Department of Energy, um, so that they could help us with some of the plasma physics, um, that would help us get to this a hundred million degrees.
• 24:58
  David Kingham: Um, and, uh, we got there in, well, we announced it in 2022.
• 25:05
  David Kingham: Um, looking back on the data, we, we were there or thereabout in 2021.
• 25:10
  David Kingham: Um, so, but we wanted to, with that 100
• 25:14
  Chris Reichhelm: million degree target
• 25:16
  David Kingham: with a hundred million degree.
• 25:19
  David Kingham: Target achieved and achieved.
• 25:24
  David Kingham: Um, now it would be easy to claim and easy to not measure things perfectly.
• 25:31
  David Kingham: Mm-hmm.
• 25:32
  David Kingham: Um, so we really wanted to be absolutely sure that the measurements were robust, repeatable, peer reviewable backed up by colleagues at, um, Princeton and Oak Ridge who know about measuring these plasma temperatures.
• 25:52
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 25:53
  David Kingham: Um, so we, we certainly wanted to go right at the No, a maximum scientific proof point, uh, end of things.
• 26:04
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 26:05
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 26:06
  Chris Reichhelm: Gearing up even, I mean, getting to 15 million degrees is, uh, is one thing.
• 26:12
  Chris Reichhelm: Getting to a hundred is another thing.
• 26:14
  Chris Reichhelm: These are incredible engineering challenges.
• 26:18
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, how, can you talk a little bit about how you guys approach that from a, you know, a, a capability standpoint?
• 26:27
  Chris Reichhelm: Where did you know, where did the talent come from?
• 26:30
  Chris Reichhelm: How are things organized?
• 26:32
  Chris Reichhelm: There are lots of our listeners who are, who, who, who are also wrestling, who with, with, with huge engineering challenges and thinking about the, that which is required to galvanize motivate and at the end of the day, get the results that are required in order for you to hit the milestone.
• 26:57
  Chris Reichhelm: What kind of lessons did you learn from that whole experience?
• 27:02
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, well one,
• 27:04
  David Kingham: the way we worked was sort of was incremental.
• 27:09
  David Kingham: Um, you know, we weren't.
• 27:13
  David Kingham: We had incremental milestones.
• 27:15
  David Kingham: Uh, I mean we had the 15 million degree and a hundred million degree milestone and, and the increasing magnetic field strength milestones in, um, with the superconducting magnets.
• 27:28
  David Kingham: Um, but the, the team evolved, um, and, and the sense of it was very different from a sort of big scale government led program, which tends to start with, um, specification requirement, and then recruiting a large team to deliver.
• 27:55
  David Kingham: So a rapid scale up of people and then progress towards the project.
• 28:01
  David Kingham: We were, we were much more, um, we'll only recruit more people if we achieve the previous milestone.
• 28:08
  David Kingham: And so learn as you go on, on the scale up.
• 28:13
  David Kingham: Now that may not be the fastest way of getting there.
• 28:17
  David Kingham: Um, and it, but, but it has the advantage that if something doesn't work out quite as expected, you're not over committ to pursuing it.
• 28:33
  David Kingham: So you, in a lot of, um, publicly funded programs, you have the big risk of, um, sunk cost argument.
• 28:42
  David Kingham: You know, we spent 30 million pounds on this, we have to proceed.
• 28:46
  David Kingham: Yes, yes.
• 28:47
  David Kingham: Now, we never got into any, any of that sort of thinking.
• 28:52
  David Kingham: Uh, some of our very early shareholders said, never take a decision to push on if the evidence doesn't support it.
• 29:03
  David Kingham: Um, yes.
• 29:04
  David Kingham: And so we cut.
• 29:06
  David Kingham: You know, we cut a few things, learn fast, forced ourselves to do things with relatively modest resources.
• 29:18
  David Kingham: Uh, and then, and, and, and the other thing we were trying to do with the magnets in particular was to achieve the highest possible field strength in the smallest possible magnet.
• 29:32
  David Kingham: So you're using materials as efficiently as possible.
• 29:37
  David Kingham: Okay.
• 29:37
  David Kingham: And you're really, you're not physically physical size.
• 29:42
  David Kingham: Scale up can come later.
• 29:43
  David Kingham: Once you're satisfied, you can handle the engineering once you get through
• 29:48
  Chris Reichhelm: the prototypes, successful prototypes for the thing that you are.
• 29:51
  Chris Reichhelm: So, so if I'm hearing correctly, one of the things that may be, and it's interesting, the, the piece around resource constraint around not growing too quickly.
• 30:06
  Chris Reichhelm: But making sure that, for want of a better phrase, you've ma you've mastered the lesson that the challenge is trying to teach, if you will, and that you can represent that in a, uh, you know, at the TRL four five stage where you're developing your prototypes.
• 30:26
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, don't worry about the size of the prototype.
• 30:29
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, at that stage can you actually try to do what you're trying to do.
• 30:34
  Chris Reichhelm: So if I'm hearing correctly, almost stay small.
• 30:37
  Chris Reichhelm: Don't worry about trying to scale so fast.
• 30:40
  Chris Reichhelm: Stay small until you've got it, and then you can worry about the challenges associated with scaling later on.
• 30:47
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 30:47
  Chris Reichhelm: Would that be a fair summary?
• 30:48
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 30:49
  Chris Reichhelm: Summary.
• 30:49
  Chris Reichhelm: I think that's, that's a fair summary.
• 30:51
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 30:51
  Chris Reichhelm: Of course.
• 30:52
  Chris Reichhelm: While you're doing this, you are trying to file patents on Yeah.
• 30:58
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, all sorts of innovations you come up with.
• 31:01
  Chris Reichhelm: Some of which are driven by trying to do things in as compact, a small, uh, manner as possible.
• 31:08
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 31:08
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, you are also building your supply chain relationships.
• 31:12
  Chris Reichhelm: Absolutely.
• 31:12
  David Kingham: Um, learning that in the high temperature superconducting world, there are many manufacturers of the basic material and then very few people who know how to turn that material into powerful magnets, uh, robust, powerful magnets.
• 31:30
  David Kingham: Um, so we had, we used quite a few different suppliers, um, and learn how some of the different, some manufacturers produce better types than others, um, or different properties, um, you know, different manufacturing techniques.
• 31:52
  David Kingham: We use different costs from various manufacturers.
• 31:57
  David Kingham: And here we are making lots of little magnets and learning quickly how to use everybody's material.
• 32:03
  David Kingham: We're also developing, um, sophisticated modeling software.
• 32:11
  David Kingham: So, you know, you build a small prototype, you measure everything you can, uh, and then you build your numerical models, your software and simulation, so you really understand how these small magnets work.
• 32:29
  David Kingham: And then you can, with confidence design a bigger magnet and a more powerful magnet.
• 32:36
  David Kingham: And then you test that.
• 32:37
  David Kingham: And if, if that works as intended, you'll get more confident in your, in your modeling and simulation.
• 32:45
  Chris Reichhelm: So that, how, how, how reliable are the models?
• 32:49
  Chris Reichhelm: Or if you are continuing to experiment at.
• 32:54
  Chris Reichhelm: These smaller scales, how much is scale a factor in the realization of what you're ultimately trying to achieve?
• 33:03
  Chris Reichhelm: You know, how much more do you have to account for scale when it's finally time to, you know, is it's, it's always more than just a matter of, well, we'll just here are scale up ratios and there you go.
• 33:15
  David Kingham: Yeah, sure.
• 33:16
  David Kingham: Because manufacturing techniques have to change as you scale up.
• 33:20
  David Kingham: Sure.
• 33:21
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 33:21
  David Kingham: Um, so we started off winding superconducting magnets as a, as a spiral of tape, um, uh, and circular section.
• 33:34
  David Kingham: Uh, and that's relatively easy to do, uh, and we've got more and more efficient at that.
• 33:41
  David Kingham: Um, then you need to think of larger scale and then different shapes, because some of the coils in the Tokamak have to be more or less a D shape rather than a circular, uh, shape.
• 33:59
  David Kingham: And that creates additional manufacturing challenges.
• 34:04
  David Kingham: Um, so you are trying to work out the manufacturing challenges at the same time as developing the software and simulation.
• 34:12
  David Kingham: So you can predict how the magnet should work.
• 34:15
  David Kingham: You build one test it, did it work as intended?
• 34:19
  David Kingham: If not, well, you know what, what's happened is our modeling software not quite right.
• 34:25
  David Kingham: Is the manufacturing technique not quite right?
• 34:28
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 34:28
  David Kingham: Did the manufacturer supply us?
• 34:31
  David Kingham: You know, did we misunderstand the spec of the tape?
• 34:34
  David Kingham: All of these challenges need to be dealt with.
• 34:38
  Chris Reichhelm: And are these things you're actually just learning on the job learning as you are understanding how to build these?
• 34:45
  David Kingham: Uh, yeah, there's a lot of that.
• 34:47
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 34:48
  David Kingham: Uh, and you're trying to build your knowledge base so that Yeah.
• 34:53
  David Kingham: You've got a substantial knowledge base as possible, and then you are doing rapid incremental innovation on top of that to,
• 35:02
  Chris Reichhelm: uh, scale
• 35:03
  David Kingham: up.
• 35:03
  David Kingham: And how does
• 35:03
  Chris Reichhelm: this approach this, you know, this, you know, because you're building something that hasn't been built before.
• 35:10
  Chris Reichhelm: You're building something that's new.
• 35:12
  Chris Reichhelm: You're trying to create something that's never existed.
• 35:14
  Chris Reichhelm: How did this impact your hiring decisions?
• 35:20
  David Kingham: Um, yeah, the,
• 35:23
  Chris Reichhelm: I mean, there are, because it's not like you can say, well, we're looking for people with experience of building spherical tokamak of innovation.
• 35:31
  Chris Reichhelm: No, exactly.
• 35:32
  Chris Reichhelm: Exactly.
• 35:34
  Chris Reichhelm: So, so did it impact your hiring and if so, how?
• 35:38
  David Kingham: Well it did, because in the Oxford area, you have some mature superconducting magnet businesses.
• 35:46
  David Kingham: Um, Oxford Instruments themselves have made high performance.
• 35:51
  David Kingham: Scientific instruments from, um, low temperature superconductors for many decade, decades.
• 35:59
  David Kingham: Um, Siemens, um, magnet technology, magnetic resonance imaging business, they make, uh, 40% of the world's MRI magnets, uh, in oxygen.
• 36:14
  David Kingham: Now, the people working in those programs are working on not quite repeating routine, but it, it is manufacturing discipline, uh, not too much innovation, very structured, uh, approaches.
• 36:35
  David Kingham: And, and in MRI, obviously regulatory, regulatory controlled, um, challenges.
• 36:44
  David Kingham: Um, so some engineers like that, the ones who don't.
• 36:50
  David Kingham: Are the sort of ones who joined our team to try new materials, to be in a more of a skunk work sort of approach to seeing how far you can go with this new material.
• 37:04
  David Kingham: Yes,
• 37:05
  Chris Reichhelm: yes.
• 37:06
  Chris Reichhelm: And is there any advice you have for filtering out those skunk works lovers, those, you know, those highly entrepreneurial Heath Robinson types?
• 37:19
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 37:20
  David Kingham: Um, well this, they, they tend to, they, they tend to cluster in particular parts of the world.
• 37:29
  David Kingham: No, they, they need Now Oxfordshire is also great for motor sport engineering Formula One teams, and that again is there's a certain culture of people who love, the, the petrol head love tinkering with the cars and trying to get them to go faster whilst remaining reliable.
• 37:53
  David Kingham: And we've got something of the similar ethos in the superconducting magnet area that, um, you need to design things.
• 38:03
  David Kingham: They have to be bold, they have to work,
• 38:07
  Chris Reichhelm: they have to be precise.
• 38:09
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 38:09
  Chris Reichhelm: You know, that love of precision and performance and safety has to be in there too, but Yeah.
• 38:16
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 38:17
  David Kingham: And then no, we, we, we then have challenges of scaling up of magnets.
• 38:23
  David Kingham: So the, the way in which you safely control a small magnet, um, so that it can't burn out if there's a loss of superconductivity, a quench, um, is it turns out to be very different or requiring very different approaches and materials.
• 38:41
  David Kingham: To go to a large magnet where the stored energy in the system is much greater and the risk of breaking your whole magnet system with a loss of superconductivity is, is yes.
• 38:55
  David Kingham: Now is a big challenge.
• 38:58
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 38:58
  David Kingham: So you, you have to be able to cope with that scale up.
• 39:01
  David Kingham: Um, yes.
• 39:03
  David Kingham: Challenge.
• 39:03
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 39:04
  Chris Reichhelm: And, and David, bring us up to today.
• 39:07
  Chris Reichhelm: So the, you know, the journey you've been on, you've just wonderfully articulated and summarized for us.
• 39:13
  Chris Reichhelm: Where is Tokamak energy today?
• 39:15
  Chris Reichhelm: What does it want to be when it grows up?
• 39:19
  David Kingham: Um, we, we really, on, on the fusion side, we want to be at the heart of major projects aimed delivering fusion energy.
• 39:30
  David Kingham: Um, and we expect these projects to be backed by governments around the world.
• 39:38
  David Kingham: Um.
• 39:39
  David Kingham: It's a great project called Step in the uk, where we're in prime position to be the engineering partner or part part of the engineering partnership team to deliver that.
• 39:51
  David Kingham: Um, we're engaged in the US milestone driven fusion development program.
• 39:57
  David Kingham: Um, and we're in dialogue for a project in Japan, which would deliver, um, well potentially fusion electricity, uh, in the 2030s, mid 2030s.
• 40:12
  David Kingham: If, uh, if things go well, we're expecting Japanese government announcements on that fairly soon.
• 40:19
  David Kingham: Um, so yeah.
• 40:23
  David Kingham: Um, and we know that in Europe there's also growing enthusiasm for fusion.
• 40:31
  David Kingham: Some very positive announcements in Germany.
• 40:34
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 40:34
  David Kingham: Um.
• 40:35
  David Kingham: You know, new government, uh, going very profusion, uh, which is interesting for Germany, given the challenges, given it history.
• 40:44
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 40:44
  David Kingham: They've had, um, the vision mission, um, yeah.
• 40:49
  David Kingham: Uh, and, and then the European Commission also, um, not wanting to be outdone by one, one of its member nations is, is looking at public-private partnership approach infusion.
• 41:01
  David Kingham: Mm-hmm.
• 41:02
  David Kingham: So, so it's
• 41:03
  Chris Reichhelm: about establishing itself kind of at the core of the entire value chain.
• 41:07
  Chris Reichhelm: Yep.
• 41:07
  Chris Reichhelm: And is this, with the view of supplying services, engineering services, at some stage, does Tokamak Energy become a product company?
• 41:19
  Chris Reichhelm: Is it going to become a, you know, a hey, we now supply Spherical Tokamak?
• 41:24
  Chris Reichhelm: Or do we partner up with a, I dunno, with Siemens and ABB and, and however many years, and they'll supply the Tokamak, but we provide the expertise and the support.
• 41:34
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 41:35
  Chris Reichhelm: You know, what exactly will it do or will it do all of those things potentially?
• 41:39
  David Kingham: Um, well, we shall see, but, um, we were very fortunate, um, a couple of years ago to get to Warren East to join our board.
• 41:50
  David Kingham: Now, Warren was previously, um, chief executive of Rolls Royce, but prior to that he was Chief Executive of Arm Holdings, which has successfully embedded its intellectual property in most of the world's advanced microprocessors.
• 42:09
  David Kingham: Mm-hmm.
• 42:10
  David Kingham: Now that when he joined, he said he wants to see Tokamak Energy become the arm of Fusion to own crucial intellectual property in all future Fusion devices around the world.
• 42:26
  David Kingham: So if we can achieve that sort of high valuation, relatively low capital requirement to do the development.
• 42:37
  David Kingham: Of course, we're partnering but embedding our technology.
• 42:41
  David Kingham: Um, software know-how systems may be high value components as well within, uh, many devices.
• 42:52
  David Kingham: Um, you know, fusion can take a few more years to develop.
• 42:57
  David Kingham: Um, what won't change is humankind will continue to pursue fusion because it is so exciting and so important and will inevitably be the dominant source of energy in the 22nd century.
• 43:14
  David Kingham: Just be good to get it sooner than that.
• 43:18
  Chris Reichhelm: Do you think the world will allow it?
• 43:21
  Chris Reichhelm: Do you think?
• 43:22
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 43:22
  Chris Reichhelm: You know, you know, you know, given how fossil fuels are so embedded in and power the geopolitical landscape, energy powers the geopolitical landscape to a certain extent.
• 43:32
  Chris Reichhelm: And, uh, you know, yeah.
• 43:34
  Chris Reichhelm: Perhaps in the 22nd century, maybe, maybe, maybe when we've, uh, but, um, but one, I guess one of the questions I, or the things I worry about, if we were to create fusion, would the world allow us to use it?
• 43:48
  David Kingham: Oh, I, I, I think so, because it's inherently safe.
• 43:53
  David Kingham: Um, there's plentiful fuel.
• 43:55
  David Kingham: Um, it doesn't require huge amounts of land.
• 43:59
  David Kingham: Um, there are proliferation risks very, very low compared to fish and Sure.
• 44:07
  David Kingham: Um, so, but, but I think what will drive fusion development is it's a bit of geopolitics.
• 44:15
  David Kingham: The, um, particularly between the US and China.
• 44:20
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 44:20
  David Kingham: Um, the US will not wanna be left behind and the new energy secretary has, you know, made that clear that the US wants to be dominant in energy and in energy innovation.
• 44:36
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 44:36
  David Kingham: So we take that to be very positive.
• 44:39
  David Kingham: And of course Europe won't want to get left out either.
• 44:42
  David Kingham: We're seeing that reaction quite, quite strongly now.
• 44:47
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 44:48
  Chris Reichhelm: But as China continues to dominate the market for many energy technology products, right now, they have the leverage and Yeah with their form of government, which can get behind new platform technologies with all the might and capital required, and increasingly talents too.
• 45:10
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, they're the, uh, you know, they may be the game to beat.
• 45:14
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 45:16
  David Kingham: We, we watch with great interest, what's what's going on in China?
• 45:20
  David Kingham: And it is not insignificant.
• 45:23
  David Kingham: And we have direct competition, um, in spherical tomax in China, perhaps strongest competition to our technology.
• 45:34
  David Kingham: Interesting.
• 45:36
  Chris Reichhelm: Interesting.
• 45:37
  Chris Reichhelm: The, the, um, so Tokamak Energy is now at this kind of juncture.
• 45:42
  Chris Reichhelm: It's moved, you know, it's, it's along with continuing its development of the spherical Tokamak.
• 45:48
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, it continues to learn about and, and produce and design new tech and patent new technologies and systems and materials and work with partners to do all of this so that it can position itself at kind of the center of this emerging industry.
• 46:04
  Chris Reichhelm: When, when you think about the, the next phase of growth for the company.
• 46:12
  Chris Reichhelm: The skills it's gonna need in order to fully occupy and the its position in the value chain and play on a much more global stage.
• 46:22
  Chris Reichhelm: What, you know, what skills and experience and talents will you need that you don't currently have right now.
• 46:30
  Chris Reichhelm: And do you think you'll be able to fulfill those from the uk?
• 46:37
  David Kingham: Uh, yeah.
• 46:38
  David Kingham: So there's, there's different elements to this.
• 46:41
  David Kingham: I mean, one is, is our business model.
• 46:45
  David Kingham: Um, for example with, with the superconducting magnet side of the business, the model now is to look for large engineering companies that can basically take our technology and take it to very large markets, um, because they have the market relationship.
• 47:08
  David Kingham: So very recently, we've had.
• 47:10
  David Kingham: A huge amount of interest from Japanese engineering companies.
• 47:16
  David Kingham: Um, we have, um, significant investment from Furukawa Electric who own superpower, so they're manufacturers of high temperature superconducting material.
• 47:30
  David Kingham: Um, they have assessed very carefully our engineering design capabilities and, um, decided, uh, to make a substantial investment in the company and then to introduce us to other large Japanese companies who are, um, able to get superconducting technology into some very large opportunities.
• 47:58
  David Kingham: Mm-hmm.
• 47:59
  David Kingham: Um, so that is one part of our strategy of leverage.
• 48:04
  David Kingham: Mm-hmm.
• 48:05
  David Kingham: So we will invest in the early stage innovation up to TRL six or seven.
• 48:13
  David Kingham: Um, we can recruit enthusiastic magnet engineers who love the challenge of getting to that point, and then we hand over to either a joint venture manufacturing opportunity or, or a pure licensing or some other tech transfer arrangement so that a product that depends on our technology is taken to market by someone else who has the go market skills and the customer relationships.
• 48:47
  David Kingham: Got it.
• 48:48
  David Kingham: Got it.
• 48:48
  David Kingham: So we see that model.
• 48:52
  David Kingham: Um, I mean we have more than half a dozen large, large live opportunities of that type.
• 49:02
  David Kingham: Into quite different sectors, um, you know, propulsion systems for land, sea, air space, um, where interesting compact, relatively lightweight superconducting magnets can make a big difference.
• 49:24
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 49:24
  David Kingham: Um, difference.
• 49:25
  David Kingham: One of those projects is, um, a, a DARPA project on submarine propulsion.
• 49:33
  David Kingham: Um, it, yeah, it's in, in the public domain.
• 49:37
  David Kingham: Um, yes, our magnets can deliver the magnetic field strength that is required for efficient magneto hydrodynamic drive, but the technology's gonna be pretty complex to develop, so I don't think it's gonna happen anytime very soon.
• 49:56
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 49:58
  David Kingham: But
• 49:58
  Chris Reichhelm: in, in these situations though, then you are identifying additional applications.
• 50:04
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 50:05
  Chris Reichhelm: Or IT or additional application areas are being identified by someone.
• 50:10
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes, yes.
• 50:11
  Chris Reichhelm: Either from within to come back energy or from someone outside who then looks at what you are developing and says, oh, that's interesting.
• 50:18
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 50:18
  Chris Reichhelm: And so you have this, it's not quite the arm model because arm focused on the design or here's a blueprint, and then the designers could then go and design the chips using the ARM blueprint, and then CSMC would make 'em.
• 50:32
  Chris Reichhelm: And, uh, but you've got, you know, so you're designing some of it to a point and you've got a whole library of patents and so on.
• 50:40
  Chris Reichhelm: And then in some areas, I'm guessing over time you may go on to develop more of the technology.
• 50:46
  Chris Reichhelm: Or, you know, advance it to a particular stage.
• 50:48
  Chris Reichhelm: In other cases you may not need to do it as much, but you are then reliant on this, on these relationships with these big global partners who can help you scale and get to market.
• 50:57
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 50:58
  David Kingham: And then of course you have commercial negotiations.
• 51:00
  David Kingham: Is it?
• 51:02
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 51:02
  David Kingham: Non-exclusive license.
• 51:03
  David Kingham: Is it an exclusive license?
• 51:05
  David Kingham: What are the performance Yes.
• 51:07
  David Kingham: Criteria?
• 51:09
  David Kingham: Um, yes.
• 51:10
  David Kingham: Uh, is it split geographically and Yeah.
• 51:14
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 51:15
  David Kingham: Um, so you know, David, if I were to ask you
• 51:18
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 51:19
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah, no, so those commercial skills, um, and strategic business development skills are, uh, are, are, are critical there.
• 51:27
  Chris Reichhelm: Let me take you out of Tokamak Energy for a second.
• 51:29
  Chris Reichhelm: You've been in the industry for a long time.
• 51:31
  Chris Reichhelm: Certainly been very active in the science community for, for a very long time.
• 51:36
  Chris Reichhelm: If you were to look at the uk, and we talk a lot on this program, and it's talked a lot generally about the failure of our country to get of the uk to get more, uh, companies through the lab to market journey through true TL nine and in the market, and if they're manufacturing stuff, MRL 10 and actually becoming proper, you know, proper businesses.
• 52:00
  Chris Reichhelm: If you think about that more broadly across the uk, is the model that you are developing is that, you know, you know, could that become a blueprint for other companies, do you think, and do you think there are other things we could be doing as, you know, within the UK to get more of these, more of these enterprises to market?
• 52:24
  David Kingham: I, I certainly think there's more that could be done in the UK to get the sort of IP intensive early stage in innovation companies to market.
• 52:35
  David Kingham: I think.
• 52:37
  David Kingham: The UK is naturally good at the early stage innovation and tends to not be so good when it comes to large scale manufacturing.
• 52:51
  David Kingham: Um, and yeah, I trying to be good at large scale manufacturing, for example, of batteries, you know, doesn't seem, I don't think we're likely to succeed in that.
• 53:07
  David Kingham: Hmm.
• 53:08
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 53:08
  David Kingham: There, you know, there are too many other countries who are better placed.
• 53:12
  David Kingham: Um, but if it's more of a niche, um, like superconducting magnets, you know, the UK is a world leader in high field superconducting magnets, um, you know, with, with ourselves now and Oxford Instrument, Siemens and Yeah.
• 53:30
  David Kingham: And others.
• 53:31
  David Kingham: Um, it that.
• 53:36
  David Kingham: Feels like a, a much more likely to succeed strategy than chasing something, than reshoring
• 53:45
  Chris Reichhelm: and chasing a whole bunch of manufacturing.
• 53:48
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 53:49
  Chris Reichhelm: I
• 53:49
  David Kingham: mean, some of that of course, but of course.
• 53:51
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 53:52
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 53:52
  David Kingham: But, but the, the arm model that, the high intellectual property model, the radical innovation, um, and then partnering, I think it's a nice way to go
• 54:07
  Chris Reichhelm: and perhaps the skill, because let's not forget the, the lessons learned from manufacturing and scaling are significant.
• 54:18
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, they've enabled, I think, China to start developing their own ip.
• 54:24
  Chris Reichhelm: And to, you know, and to, and, and to, uh, um, and, and they enabled Japan and Korea and Taiwan and so on to become real innovators.
• 54:32
  Chris Reichhelm: So beyond just the manufacturing piece, it, you know, all of that expertise they gained ultimately allowed them to become innovators too.
• 54:40
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 54:40
  Chris Reichhelm: And so it's a, uh, but maybe to the point, um, by having those close partnerships with groups that can, are, are, you know, are, are capable of delivering things at scale and then taking the lessons, making sure that the executives or the talent in our businesses is taking the lessons from their interactions and bringing some of that home so that we're able to capture that ourselves to, you know, very often we see interesting platform technologies which may look good at, at the bench, uh, or in theory, but aren't ultimately scalable for one reason or another.
• 55:19
  Chris Reichhelm: And there's almost a sense that well, had we.
• 55:22
  Chris Reichhelm: Had we been more of a mindset to think about the scaling challenges upfront, we may not have gone down this line.
• 55:30
  Chris Reichhelm: And so, uh, and so a balance still has to be struck there.
• 55:35
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 55:36
  Chris Reichhelm: It sounds like Yeah.
• 55:37
  Chris Reichhelm: Or closer relationships with manufacturers, uh, and OEMs
• 55:41
  David Kingham: and, yeah.
• 55:44
  David Kingham: I mean, one of the things that has surprised us over the last couple of years is the number of new applications of the high temperature superconductors that we've become aware of.
• 55:55
  David Kingham: Um, and that often through dialogue with supply chain and then sort of coming across, um, p people.
• 56:10
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 56:10
  David Kingham: Finding out that you have a potential solution to somebody's problem.
• 56:15
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 56:15
  David Kingham: Um, so the mo most recent of those is.
• 56:20
  David Kingham: The possibility of using superconductors in data centers.
• 56:27
  David Kingham: So data centers are increasingly power hungry.
• 56:32
  David Kingham: The power density of the data centers is gonna increase dramatically with the latest NVIDIA chips.
• 56:39
  David Kingham: Um, so you know, they're gonna go up towards one megawatt, um, per rack, um, from a hundred hundred and 30 kilowatts or whatever it is at the moment.
• 56:53
  David Kingham: Oh wow.
• 56:53
  David Kingham: So this is, um, astonishing power requirements.
• 56:58
  David Kingham: And to get the power to the, to the chip, you need buzz bars.
• 57:04
  David Kingham: At the moment they use copper and aluminum and these buzz bars are getting big.
• 57:12
  David Kingham: Um, so they're occupying a significant amount of space within the data center, and they're generating huge amounts of heat.
• 57:19
  David Kingham: Hmm.
• 57:20
  David Kingham: Um, so on the other hand, they're conventional and routine easy technologies, but the point is gonna come where it's worth having a high temperature superconducting buzz bar in these data centers because it will deliver five times the amount of power in the same footprint as copper.
• 57:43
  David Kingham: Um, and yeah, even more so.
• 57:46
  David Kingham: That's fascinating.
• 57:47
  Chris Reichhelm: Are you, are you guys scouting out these applications or are, are, you know, is the demand side approaching you or is it a mix of both?
• 57:59
  David Kingham: It's a mix.
• 58:00
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 58:01
  David Kingham: It's a mix.
• 58:02
  David Kingham: Um, it's things we've become aware of.
• 58:05
  David Kingham: Yeah.
• 58:05
  David Kingham: Um, and then, um, you start, you start to investigate in more detail and, and then you find there's a debate in the industry, are we gonna go to superconductors?
• 58:18
  David Kingham: In the next generation, or is it five or 10 years down the track?
• 58:23
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 58:24
  David Kingham: Um, and then you get some, some of the, so I mean, we couldn't go to market directly with a technology like that.
• 58:33
  David Kingham: We'd have to partner with an engineering player who's already supplying into that industry.
• 58:41
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 58:41
  David Kingham: Um, so some of those are very cautious, um, and very slow moving.
• 58:48
  David Kingham: Others, uh, are open to innovations Yes.
• 58:52
  David Kingham: That might come through to market in two or three years.
• 58:55
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 58:56
  David Kingham: So,
• 58:56
  Chris Reichhelm: yes.
• 58:57
  Chris Reichhelm: Okay.
• 58:58
  Chris Reichhelm: David, one final question for you.
• 59:01
  Chris Reichhelm: When do you think we're gonna have nuclear fusion reactors actually producing nuclear fusion?
• 59:08
  David Kingham: Uh, well, our, our ST 40 does nuclear fusion now every day, or, you know, most days.
• 59:17
  David Kingham: Um, but it takes a lot more energy into it than it outputs.
• 59:22
  David Kingham: Yes.
• 59:22
  David Kingham: If you're looking at electricity generation Yes.
• 59:27
  David Kingham: Then I think 20 35, 20 34, 20 35.
• 59:32
  David Kingham: Okay.
• 59:33
  David Kingham: For electricity generation at meaningful scale.
• 59:37
  David Kingham: Um, and I'd point to the US Milestone Driven Fusion development program and possibly a new Japanese program that might aim realistically at that, uh, timeframe.
• 59:50
  Chris Reichhelm: So within 10 years.
• 59:52
  David Kingham: Yep.
• 59:53
  Chris Reichhelm: Right.
• 59:54
  Chris Reichhelm: Well that's exciting
• 59:55
  David Kingham: from Fusion.
• 59:56
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 59:56
  Chris Reichhelm: That's very exciting.
• 59:58
  Chris Reichhelm: David, I've loved having you.
• 1:00:00
  Chris Reichhelm: Thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:00:02
  Chris Reichhelm: It's been, uh, it's been great.
• 1:00:03
  Chris Reichhelm: I'm sure our listeners are gonna love it.
• 1:00:05
  David Kingham: Uh, thank you, Chris.
• 1:00:06
  David Kingham: I enjoyed it as well.
• 1:00:07
  David Kingham: Thank you very much for the questions.
• 1:00:09
  David Kingham: There's some challenging questions in there.
• 1:00:11
  David Kingham: Excellent.
• 1:00:12
  Chris Reichhelm: You've been listening to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast, brought to you by Deep Tech Leaders.
• 1:00:19
  Chris Reichhelm: This podcast has been produced by Beauxhaus.
• 1:00:21
  Chris Reichhelm: You can find out more about us on LinkedIn, Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.