Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Introducing: Ludwig Göransson on Talk Easy

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Introducing: Ludwig Göransson on Talk Easy · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin.
0:20
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, today we're featuring an episode of one of
0:23
Speaker 2: our favorite shows here on the Pushkin Network, Talk Easy,
0:26
Speaker 2: hosted by Sam Fragoso. In episode You're about to Hear,
0:30
Speaker 2: Sam talks to the renowned music producer and composer Ludwig Gorensen.
0:36
Speaker 2: He's a Grammy and Academy Award winning producer and composer
0:40
Speaker 2: who scored Ryan Coogler's Black Panther and most recently scored
0:43
Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan's epic Oppenheimer. He's also produced records and written
0:48
Speaker 2: songs for heim Rihanna Adele, and Donald Glover aka Childish Gambino.
0:55
Speaker 2: Here's Sam Fragoso's conversation with Ludwig Gorensen.
1:14
Speaker 3: This is Talk Easy. I'm student Forgoso. Welcome to the
1:18
Speaker 3: show today. I'm joined by renowned music producer and composer
1:36
Speaker 3: Ludwig Gorenson. Over the past decade, he's won three Grammys,
1:40
Speaker 3: two Emmys, and one Academy Award for Best Original Score
1:45
Speaker 3: for the film Black Panther, directed by Ryan Kugler. In fact,
1:49
Speaker 3: he's scored all of Kugler's films dating back to Fruitvale Station.
1:54
Speaker 3: When he's not working as a composer. He's producing records
1:57
Speaker 3: and writing hit songs for some of the most beloved
2:00
Speaker 3: musicians today hi am Rihanna Adele and most consistently, Donald
2:06
Speaker 3: Glover aka Childish Gambino. But his latest collaboration might be
2:13
Speaker 3: his most ambitious to date, creating the score for Christopher
2:17
Speaker 3: Nolan's newest epic, Oppenheimer. The film tells the story of
2:21
Speaker 3: the complex and controversial American scientist Jay Robert Oppenheimer as
2:27
Speaker 3: he races against the clock to develop the atomic bomb.
2:31
Speaker 3: While each of the performances from a cast that includes
2:33
Speaker 3: Killian Murphy and Robert Downey Junior are electric, it's Ludwig's
2:38
Speaker 3: singular composition that I think both pushes the film forward
2:42
Speaker 3: and holds it all together. Nolan himself has called the
2:46
Speaker 3: work deeply personal and historically expansive, drawing the audience into
2:51
Speaker 3: the emotional dilemmas of the characters while they each grapple
2:55
Speaker 3: with the vast geopolitical issues at play. Having seen the
3:00
Speaker 3: film twice now, it's Ludwig's score that has most stayed
3:04
Speaker 3: with me. It's powerful but not overpowering, tender but not saccharin.
3:10
Speaker 3: If you haven't seen the film, you'll hear some of
3:12
Speaker 3: what I'm talking about. In this episode, we also discuss
3:16
Speaker 3: his musical childhood in Sweden, coming to America in his
3:20
Speaker 3: early twenties, the building blocks of his decade long collaborations
3:24
Speaker 3: with Koogler and Glover, respectively, and how his work on
3:27
Speaker 3: Oppenheimer marks a new chapter in the composer's varied, illustrious career.
3:34
Speaker 3: This is my conversation with Ludwig Gorenson. Ludwig A pleasure
3:54
Speaker 3: to have here.
3:55
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sam. It's great to be here.
3:57
Speaker 3: You know, we rarely have someone on the show whose
4:00
Speaker 3: hair is longer than mine?
4:02
Speaker 1: And how do you feel about that?
4:04
Speaker 3: Profoundly insecure.
4:06
Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot about it lately, Sake cut
4:09
Speaker 1: it off or should I keep it? But now I've
4:11
Speaker 1: passed the stage where I'm like, I don't know too
4:14
Speaker 1: much of my personality in it and my identity.
4:16
Speaker 3: Are you afraid of like the new person you would
4:19
Speaker 3: become if you cut your hair.
4:21
Speaker 1: I'm not afraid of that. I'm more afraid of like
4:23
Speaker 1: everyone losing interest in me. That's it.
4:28
Speaker 3: Ryan Coogler, Donald Glover, Christopher Nolan. They're just in it
4:33
Speaker 3: for the hair they don't have.
4:37
Speaker 1: That's the secret.
4:38
Speaker 3: How has your summer been back home in Sweden.
4:42
Speaker 1: It's been incredible. This is the first time and I
4:44
Speaker 1: moved to America about fifteen years ago, and this is
4:47
Speaker 1: the first time when I'm in Sweden, my home country,
4:50
Speaker 1: for more than like a week at a time. I've
4:52
Speaker 1: been here for three months now. It's great. I mean,
4:54
Speaker 1: the biggest reason why I want to spend more time
4:57
Speaker 1: here now specifically because my kids. I have an almost
5:00
Speaker 1: four year old and a two year old, and I
5:03
Speaker 1: just want them to have the Swedish identity and want
5:06
Speaker 1: them to be able to speak the language fluently. And
5:08
Speaker 1: so it's it's important.
5:10
Speaker 3: Being back home. Has it forced you to kind of
5:12
Speaker 3: like reflect on the last fifteen years of working in America.
5:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know who I am here yet a
5:20
Speaker 1: little bit. I feel like everything around me here has changed,
5:24
Speaker 1: and I'm a different person. I never had a professional
5:27
Speaker 1: career in Sweden. ALSOLD was a student or the kid,
5:32
Speaker 1: so me coming back as someone that has some kind
5:35
Speaker 1: of work experience and just trying to kind of navigate
5:38
Speaker 1: life here. And I feel like a lot of things
5:40
Speaker 1: in Sweden changed too the last fifteen years. So I'm
5:43
Speaker 1: still trying to find the balance and trying to find
5:45
Speaker 1: myself here. But it's an exciting time to do that.
5:49
Speaker 3: Well, it's been an especially exciting summer for you because
5:53
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've been reading, but people seem
5:56
Speaker 3: to be liking Oppenheimer. It's brought them back to the movies,
6:00
Speaker 3: the Barbenheimer phenomenon. I don't know how it happened, but
6:04
Speaker 3: I'm glad it did. In the film, there is roughly
6:07
Speaker 3: two and a half hours of original music, which some
6:11
Speaker 3: publications have reported you made in five days. How does
6:16
Speaker 3: someone make something like this in five days?
6:20
Speaker 1: Well, I think start off, some of that publication is
6:23
Speaker 1: not that correct beautiful to go back, you can't this
6:26
Speaker 1: is not puzzible during five days. It was published that
6:30
Speaker 1: recorded the music in five days, which is also not
6:33
Speaker 1: true because I recorded this for about six months with
6:36
Speaker 1: different musicians like string quartet, string octet, soloists. But when
6:41
Speaker 1: I had the whole orchestra together in the same room,
6:44
Speaker 1: that amount was five days. The recording process, when you
6:48
Speaker 1: record the full orchestra together, that's kind of the last
6:50
Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle. So that's the last final stage
6:53
Speaker 1: of putting together a film score. The hard work is
6:57
Speaker 1: often way before that. So normally when you hear the
7:01
Speaker 1: orcst are playing the score, that's like the climax of
7:04
Speaker 1: the whole process, when you can kind of take a
7:06
Speaker 1: step back and just listen to the music, almost like
7:08
Speaker 1: seeing or the birth of your child or something.
7:11
Speaker 3: Well, if that's the climax, why don't we just go
7:13
Speaker 3: back to Act one? Mm?
7:15
Speaker 1: Hm.
7:15
Speaker 3: You get a call from Christopher Nolan, he says one.
7:18
Speaker 1: He says, I finished a script and I'd love for
7:22
Speaker 1: you to read it, and can you can buy and
7:24
Speaker 1: read it tomorrow or in two days. Chris is kind
7:27
Speaker 1: of in a way where he doesn't really talk about
7:29
Speaker 1: what he's working on, even though we spend time together
7:32
Speaker 1: and we talk and by HESTI were like, oh, think
7:34
Speaker 1: about writing this, and this is about this. So it's
7:37
Speaker 1: always kind of a call out of the blue. So
7:40
Speaker 1: I get the call, I go out to the studio,
7:42
Speaker 1: I go into a room, close the door, and sit
7:45
Speaker 1: with the script for as much time as I need.
7:48
Speaker 1: And this is a pretty heavy script. I had no
7:51
Speaker 1: idea what it was going to be about, and so
7:53
Speaker 1: I immediately get just sucked into the story. And it's
7:58
Speaker 1: like into Oppenheimer and the character and the way that
8:02
Speaker 1: the script is written is from Oppenheimer's point of view.
8:06
Speaker 1: Everything you're living the world through his eyes. So that
8:09
Speaker 1: was something that I was quickly taken by surprise to
8:13
Speaker 1: read something like that, and I was completely floored after
8:16
Speaker 1: I read that script, and immediately also thought that the
8:19
Speaker 1: music needs to kind of do the same thing and
8:21
Speaker 1: the same experience I had when reading it. Then music
8:23
Speaker 1: needs to get the audience to feel like they're in
8:26
Speaker 1: his eyes and feeling everything he is feeling.
8:30
Speaker 3: The first step or the only specific instrument he wanted
8:35
Speaker 3: was the violin, which, as I understand that you don't
8:39
Speaker 3: play the violin, but your wife does when you drive
8:43
Speaker 3: back home, what's the pitch you make to her?
8:49
Speaker 1: Well, it was kind of after I read the script
8:52
Speaker 1: and secrets. Actually it was not until a few days
8:55
Speaker 1: later when he went to his house and we talked
8:57
Speaker 1: about it, and it was also we talked about the script,
9:00
Speaker 1: we listened to music, we talked about movies, and that's
9:04
Speaker 1: when he kind of mentioned that I don't really have
9:07
Speaker 1: any ideas other than trying to use an experiment with
9:11
Speaker 1: the sound of violin. And Chris also knows Serena and
9:14
Speaker 1: my wife, so he knows that she's a violinist, and
9:18
Speaker 1: we kind of have that advantage to being in the
9:20
Speaker 1: studio with her and an experiment and try out some
9:24
Speaker 1: different techniques and spend time on just sounds. Was definitely
9:29
Speaker 1: a luxury.
9:30
Speaker 3: You two working on it before you bring in this
9:32
Speaker 3: big orchestra that you're talking about. Do you remember a
9:35
Speaker 3: moment where it kind of started to click.
9:38
Speaker 1: I remember we've been recording the whole day, just different
9:41
Speaker 1: kind of glissandos, just one note, little vibratos and long
9:45
Speaker 1: notes and doing glazanos up and down and changing the
9:47
Speaker 1: pitch and changing the speed of the vibrato, going from
9:51
Speaker 1: something somber and beautiful something horrific within seconds. And then
9:56
Speaker 1: I think, after a whole day of recording that we're
9:57
Speaker 1: kind of both like, okay, this is this is not
9:59
Speaker 1: that fun, Like sitting there for hours wearing noises and
10:04
Speaker 1: we're like, okay, well we had to go home to
10:06
Speaker 1: the kids. I remember I was like putting down something
10:09
Speaker 1: on the piano really quick. It took me like five minutes,
10:13
Speaker 1: and I was like, why don't we just record this
10:15
Speaker 1: idea over this bassline that I wrote? And she played
10:18
Speaker 1: the melody in one take and it was beautiful and
10:23
Speaker 1: haunting and intimate and kind of sad and fragile. And
10:29
Speaker 1: we recorded that within ten minutes, and I sent it
10:32
Speaker 1: immediately over to Chris and then he called me later
10:34
Speaker 1: that night and he was like, this is an open
10:37
Speaker 1: Emer's theme. I think that's the theme.
10:39
Speaker 3: Well, since we're telling this story not exactly in chronological order,
10:43
Speaker 3: which is kind of fitting I think for Christopher Nolan work,
10:47
Speaker 3: why don't we play the titular track from the film
10:50
Speaker 3: Oppenheimer not bad?
12:06
Speaker 1: Thank you?
12:07
Speaker 3: What were you thinking about hearing that just now?
12:10
Speaker 1: It brings back a lot of memories, because you know,
12:12
Speaker 1: we're trying to find the tone of the of the movie,
12:15
Speaker 1: and I remember that the way I want I wanted
12:18
Speaker 1: to try to find it was to really find emotional
12:21
Speaker 1: core of the music instead of focusing on kind of
12:24
Speaker 1: like the sounds and production. And I always try to
12:27
Speaker 1: have a different way to go about how to start
12:30
Speaker 1: a project. I always try to do it a different way.
12:33
Speaker 1: I always want to feel like I'm doing something for
12:34
Speaker 1: the first time. But it was it was just so
12:37
Speaker 1: interesting that that probably like after writing two three hours
12:41
Speaker 1: of music and trying really different type of compositions and
12:45
Speaker 1: this piece that was just kind of one more simple
12:48
Speaker 1: was the one that really stuck.
12:50
Speaker 3: And then your wife recorded the song that you wrote.
12:53
Speaker 1: You know, I wrote it as we were kind of
12:55
Speaker 1: packing up the packing up from the pseudo to go home,
12:57
Speaker 1: and we're kind of in a rush, and I started
13:00
Speaker 1: with that baseline. They form a baseline, and then we
13:05
Speaker 1: have the melody on top of it, and the other
13:07
Speaker 1: melody that hears is countermelody to the original melody.
13:11
Speaker 3: When you're in the process of creating this elaborate score,
13:15
Speaker 3: it's fascinating that the thing that landed most, the emotional
13:20
Speaker 3: core that you were looking at, it came about when
13:23
Speaker 3: the two of you were rushed anxious to get back home,
13:27
Speaker 3: thinking about your kids, probably more than you were thinking
13:30
Speaker 3: about putting down this track. In that process. Have you
13:35
Speaker 3: found that that typically happens like when you're not expecting it,
13:40
Speaker 3: It kind of finds.
13:41
Speaker 1: You absolutely, especially when you've done you know, you've been
13:44
Speaker 1: doing something for a long time. In a day, you've
13:47
Speaker 1: been writing, or you've been recording with your band, you've
13:49
Speaker 1: done it for ten hours, like the last two or
13:51
Speaker 1: three hours, everything's going to start sounding bad. It's like
13:55
Speaker 1: your head gets tired and you start to criticize yourself.
13:58
Speaker 1: I like, there's all this noise coming into your minds,
14:01
Speaker 1: your brain, and like this voice is telling you that
14:04
Speaker 1: you know, telling you what telling it Like you're like, oh,
14:07
Speaker 1: this is not good, this is not you know, it's
14:08
Speaker 1: time to go home with ten rap up. But a
14:10
Speaker 1: lot of those times that's also when the magic can happen.
14:14
Speaker 3: Well, I want to pinpoint when this like magic started
14:19
Speaker 3: happening for you, because, like we said at the top,
14:22
Speaker 3: you're back home in Sweden, which is where you came
14:26
Speaker 3: of age in a pretty musical household. Your father was
14:30
Speaker 3: a guitar teacher, your mother a florist and a pianist.
14:33
Speaker 3: Even your sister was musical, she played the violin. You,
14:37
Speaker 3: of course, began playing music at the age of seven.
14:39
Speaker 3: I think it was yeah, you wrote once, I've been
14:42
Speaker 3: making music every day since then and tomorrow. But my
14:47
Speaker 3: understanding is that the only reason you started playing the
14:50
Speaker 3: guitar was because your parents refused to buy you video games,
14:56
Speaker 3: which is what you kind of wanted like every young kid,
14:59
Speaker 3: and instead of a gaming console, you received a small, portable,
15:04
Speaker 3: four channel cassette tape. Is that how this all began?
15:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how my music production and songwriting came about.
15:11
Speaker 1: When I was about six or seven, I started sitting
15:14
Speaker 1: down with my dad ten fifteen minutes every day, just
15:17
Speaker 1: some alone time and just playing some very simple songs
15:20
Speaker 1: on guitar. And I didn't have any opinion really about
15:23
Speaker 1: it was nice to spend some alone time with my dad.
15:26
Speaker 1: But then two years later, I think it was my
15:29
Speaker 1: birthday and I was like so excited. I was finally
15:31
Speaker 1: it's going to be a Nintendo in the car waiting
15:33
Speaker 1: for me, like a secret package, and then I got
15:38
Speaker 1: it four track tape recorder instead. We put it up
15:41
Speaker 1: in the basement and I never left. And then every
15:45
Speaker 1: birthday it was just another thing like a drum machine
15:48
Speaker 1: or eight track digital recorder or a new guitar, and
15:51
Speaker 1: it's always something musical that replaced those urges of video
15:55
Speaker 1: game consoles.
15:56
Speaker 3: Was there a particular day and a particular song by
16:00
Speaker 3: an American metal band that kind of fortified your desire
16:04
Speaker 3: to make music? It was.
16:06
Speaker 1: Actually the way it came about was that my dad,
16:08
Speaker 1: he's a guitar teacher. So when he started out as
16:11
Speaker 1: a classical guitar teacher, and then you start playing blues
16:13
Speaker 1: and they love, you know, blues and soul. And then
16:16
Speaker 1: one day he's guitar students gave him a Metallica album
16:20
Speaker 1: and asked him if you could teach them how to
16:22
Speaker 1: play these songs, and he was like, no way, like
16:24
Speaker 1: I hate this music. And then but he took it
16:27
Speaker 1: home and he wanted to be a good teacher. So
16:29
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, I'm going to learn this so
16:31
Speaker 1: I could teach him how to play this. I remember
16:33
Speaker 1: being a kid and just hearing like a crazy noise
16:36
Speaker 1: from the basement where the studio was, and I go
16:39
Speaker 1: downstairs and I open the door and I see my
16:42
Speaker 1: dad like head bang Metallica play in semin and like
16:46
Speaker 1: my mind is exploded. Its like what is this sound? Is?
16:50
Speaker 1: What is this music? How can I play it?
16:52
Speaker 3: Had you ever seen him headbang before?
16:54
Speaker 1: No? I never seen him like that, like unleashed. And
16:57
Speaker 1: since I already knew how to play a little guitar,
16:59
Speaker 1: I could pretty quickly like pick it up and start
17:02
Speaker 1: playing the riffs and stuff and then the solo. So
17:04
Speaker 1: obviously I had to practice a lot. But then it
17:07
Speaker 1: became a thing like we got me and my dad
17:08
Speaker 1: went see them live. We started playing the songs together.
17:11
Speaker 1: I started a band. I was all in from that moment.
17:14
Speaker 3: Were your parents like excited that this was your obsession
17:18
Speaker 3: that you would like stay in the basement and just
17:20
Speaker 3: like stay in it?
17:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, there were my They were my biggest fans and supporders.
17:25
Speaker 1: Like I'm thinking back at it now, like I started
17:27
Speaker 1: a band and my dad was He arranged for us
17:30
Speaker 1: to play on the on the square of our hometown.
17:33
Speaker 1: He set up our instruments, he drove us around, he
17:36
Speaker 1: opened up the rehearsal space, you know, all the time.
17:39
Speaker 1: I just now, I just at that time took for
17:41
Speaker 1: granted like that's what you know parents do. But now
17:43
Speaker 1: thinking back at it, just every weekend, how much he
17:47
Speaker 1: kind of spend his time and energy on that. That's
17:50
Speaker 1: pretty remarkable.
17:51
Speaker 3: When you're in high school and fall in love with
17:53
Speaker 3: like American rock and roll, when did you discover the
17:57
Speaker 3: possibilities of film scoring.
18:00
Speaker 1: I think a big part of that was like Napster,
18:03
Speaker 1: and it was a program called DC plus plus.
18:05
Speaker 3: I don't remember that one.
18:06
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, he allowed me to if I found a
18:09
Speaker 1: song that I liked on Napster, I could click on
18:12
Speaker 1: the user and then I could go into that user's
18:14
Speaker 1: like sound libraries or music libraries, and I could just
18:17
Speaker 1: pull that user his or hers whole library to my
18:20
Speaker 1: computer and find music that like I had never heard of.
18:23
Speaker 1: Some of that music was like like Boston and music,
18:26
Speaker 1: some of it was Turkish music from different parts of
18:29
Speaker 1: the world, and some of it was also film scores,
18:31
Speaker 1: and that was really fun for me, like listening over
18:34
Speaker 1: and over to like the mc ivory theme song on
18:36
Speaker 1: the Turtles theme songs. And I think the big part
18:39
Speaker 1: of it also was like technology, Like I liked being
18:42
Speaker 1: on the computer and finding this type of music, and
18:45
Speaker 1: I also had program in my computer call like Impulse Tracker.
18:49
Speaker 1: It was like the first type of sequence there where
18:52
Speaker 1: you don't have like an arrange window. You have is
18:54
Speaker 1: everything's just zeros and ones and numbers. So basically when
18:58
Speaker 1: we play the song, it just looks like a like
19:01
Speaker 1: a crazy like screen of just numbers up and down.
19:04
Speaker 1: And that's how I made my first kind of songs
19:07
Speaker 1: on the computer. And then obviously I went to qbas
19:10
Speaker 1: and logic and all that stuff, But being part of
19:12
Speaker 1: the thing that excited me was also how the production
19:15
Speaker 1: of it and using technology.
19:17
Speaker 3: Have you listened back to any of those.
19:19
Speaker 1: No, and I don't want, I don't feel like what.
19:24
Speaker 3: Your debut as an orchestral composer came at the age
19:28
Speaker 3: of seventeen. It was called five Minutes to Christmas. The
19:33
Speaker 3: night that that was performed. What happened.
19:37
Speaker 1: It was kind of out of body experience because you
19:40
Speaker 1: were seventeen years old. The only time you've had your
19:43
Speaker 1: music performed is with your band with three or four people.
19:47
Speaker 1: And then the fact that like sitting and writing orchestral scores,
19:51
Speaker 1: we had an opportunity. We had a great school, so
19:53
Speaker 1: I had an opportunity to write for the symphony orchestra,
19:55
Speaker 1: and I was one of the few chosen from the
19:57
Speaker 1: class to do it. And since we had such a
19:59
Speaker 1: good education, I already knew how to write it, you know,
20:02
Speaker 1: by hand, and write down the sheet music by hand.
20:05
Speaker 1: And I was sitting in by the piano in our
20:07
Speaker 1: living room and just writing that the whole summer. It
20:10
Speaker 1: was very inspired by Star Wars and night ran before
20:12
Speaker 1: Christmas and had like Slabeles in it, and kind of
20:15
Speaker 1: a Darth Vader theme in it. Not that great, but
20:18
Speaker 1: you could clearly hear what the inspiration was. And then yeah,
20:21
Speaker 1: I was opening We opened it during a school concert
20:25
Speaker 1: and there was the whole concert hall was full of
20:27
Speaker 1: people and they played my music and it was really
20:31
Speaker 1: wild because everyone loved it so much, and like they
20:34
Speaker 1: played it on the Swedish radio and it really made
20:38
Speaker 1: me feel special. But the big take up and that
20:41
Speaker 1: was to hearing your music being performed by seventy people
20:45
Speaker 1: in a concert hall, to live audience, and just the
20:48
Speaker 1: feeling of that. It was like, how I just asked
20:51
Speaker 1: myself over and over again, how can I do this
20:53
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life? And how can I
20:54
Speaker 1: be able to do this as a.
20:56
Speaker 3: Job After the break More from Ludvig Gorenson coming back,
21:27
Speaker 3: we were talking about the five Minutes before Christmas orchestral
21:32
Speaker 3: piece that you put together. You then studied jazz improvisation
21:36
Speaker 3: at the Royal College School of Music before eventually moving
21:41
Speaker 3: to the US at the age of twenty two in
21:44
Speaker 3: pursuit of your masters at USC here in Los Angeles.
21:49
Speaker 3: This I think was in the fall of two thousand
21:51
Speaker 3: and seven, a period that you once described as a
21:55
Speaker 3: very difficult time in my life. What did that look like?
22:02
Speaker 1: Just crying every night and missing my life that I
22:07
Speaker 1: had in Sweden and very lonely.
22:10
Speaker 3: That is the opening of Oppenheimer.
22:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, it is. I had those times. And
22:15
Speaker 1: then the funny thing is that I had that already
22:17
Speaker 1: happened once in my life, Like when I was fifteen,
22:20
Speaker 1: I moved to Stockholm. I lived in a smaller city
22:22
Speaker 1: and I moved to Stockholm. I started like a music high school,
22:25
Speaker 1: and then at that time I met, I moved home again.
22:28
Speaker 1: So I gave up and like I moved back home.
22:30
Speaker 1: And then I always kind of like regretted that decision
22:32
Speaker 1: a little bit. I didn't want to do the same
22:34
Speaker 1: thing twice.
22:35
Speaker 3: You couldn't give up again.
22:36
Speaker 1: I couldn't do that. I knew how much I would
22:38
Speaker 1: regret it afterwards. I feel like la is probably like
22:42
Speaker 1: one of the loneliest city in the world. Everything is
22:45
Speaker 1: just so difficult to know where to go. You have
22:47
Speaker 1: to plan everything if you don't have a car. But
22:49
Speaker 1: the school, I mean, the school was great and it
22:52
Speaker 1: was competitive. The professors and that's why I wanted to
22:55
Speaker 1: go there. The professors are all professional, and I think
22:58
Speaker 1: one of the things that was difficult was that the homesickness,
23:02
Speaker 1: Like I didn't understand what that was either, Like I
23:04
Speaker 1: didn't know why I was having all those feelings. I
23:07
Speaker 1: was just confused, why am I feel like this? I
23:10
Speaker 1: could navigate it and not being in control of that,
23:13
Speaker 1: and that.
23:13
Speaker 3: Was very scary. What do you mean scary?
23:15
Speaker 1: Just not just it's almost something like a jealousy, if
23:20
Speaker 1: you know, jealousy is like a feeling you can control,
23:22
Speaker 1: at least for me, I remember the times when I
23:25
Speaker 1: had those feelings that are extremely jealous. Through something like that,
23:28
Speaker 1: it's just eats that you or it comes like a
23:30
Speaker 1: big hole in your stomach, and that's what it was
23:33
Speaker 1: like at one night. It can be that can have
23:35
Speaker 1: the best time of life, and then like all of
23:36
Speaker 1: a sudden and thirty minutes later, it can be just
23:39
Speaker 1: completely crushing and not knowing why.
23:42
Speaker 3: When do you think you started to get some control
23:44
Speaker 3: over that? You're like never still here.
23:52
Speaker 1: No, But but it's not until recently where I'm like
23:56
Speaker 1: kind of starting to understand how those feelings came to
24:00
Speaker 1: be and what that was all about, and how I
24:04
Speaker 1: can try to give my kids some kind of stability
24:08
Speaker 1: that so they don't have to going to go through that.
24:10
Speaker 3: It does sound like I'd say, you really of all
24:12
Speaker 3: the things we've talked about, it does seem like the
24:15
Speaker 3: thing that's most on your mind right now?
24:18
Speaker 1: Oh of course, Yeah, definitely want to try to understand
24:21
Speaker 1: myself as good as I can for my kid's sake.
24:25
Speaker 3: In that period when you're in your mid twenties, did
24:28
Speaker 3: meeting and beginning to work with Ryan Kugler and then
24:32
Speaker 3: Donald Glover did that help you understand yourself in that moment?
24:37
Speaker 1: I think that was maybe one of the things. I
24:41
Speaker 1: don't know if we had that in common, but like
24:43
Speaker 1: one of the things that Ryan and I had a
24:45
Speaker 1: common was definitely like feeling like we're far away from
24:47
Speaker 1: our families and having a hard time.
24:50
Speaker 3: He's from Oakland.
24:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's from Oakland, and I was like, well, you're
24:53
Speaker 1: just two hours from home. It was like five hours
24:55
Speaker 1: from home, like you can just but that's not what
24:58
Speaker 1: it was about. It was like your community was everything
25:01
Speaker 1: that's familiar to you and leaving that for something new
25:04
Speaker 1: and how difficult that is, and then we could talk
25:06
Speaker 1: about that special and then yeah, and then to go
25:09
Speaker 1: back to our teacher, Kenny Hall. Kenny Hall was an
25:12
Speaker 1: incredible teacher professor at UC. He was a music editor
25:17
Speaker 1: who worked with John Williams on ET and Jerry Goldsmith
25:20
Speaker 1: and a bunch of best movies. And he was the
25:21
Speaker 1: only teacher at school that had a class for both
25:25
Speaker 1: composers and directors in the same class, which is unusual,
25:29
Speaker 1: Which is very unusual, but should be obvious because music is,
25:34
Speaker 1: I mean, music is one of the most important parts
25:36
Speaker 1: of film. And to get some direction from a professor
25:40
Speaker 1: for the directors to how to talk about music and
25:43
Speaker 1: how to approach that, how to talk to the composers,
25:46
Speaker 1: I think was incredibly helpful. And to have a class
25:50
Speaker 1: where we can discuss so we can also understand how
25:53
Speaker 1: the directors talk about music and how they think about music.
25:56
Speaker 1: Because we're all students, We're like, oh, this is you know,
25:58
Speaker 1: music is the most important part of the film, Like
26:00
Speaker 1: it should be the loudest, you know, the part of
26:02
Speaker 1: the whole student film you're doing, and take out the
26:05
Speaker 1: sound effects and the dialogue and don't give me any notes.
26:08
Speaker 1: That kind of how you approach it from the beginning.
26:11
Speaker 3: Was that your policy back then? No notes?
26:14
Speaker 1: No, I was, I was pretty open, but I definitely
26:18
Speaker 1: remember before I started USC that had like this romantic
26:22
Speaker 1: image of the film composer getting getting the film, having
26:25
Speaker 1: several months to himself at some kind of lodge up
26:29
Speaker 1: in the mountains, and just being able to write the
26:31
Speaker 1: whole film score by himself, and then taking the orchestra
26:34
Speaker 1: and getting performed and magically it's in the movie.
26:36
Speaker 3: You had to settle for Los Phillies and Silver like
26:39
Speaker 3: I guess, you know, as your romantic hopes were kind
26:46
Speaker 3: of slowly dashed by the real process of making and
26:51
Speaker 3: creating these scores. You did like dozens of scores for
26:55
Speaker 3: students at USC What stood out about Ryan and his work.
27:01
Speaker 1: First of all, I was friends a little bit with
27:03
Speaker 1: Ryan before he did a student film, so we had
27:05
Speaker 1: we already had a little bit of a relationship before
27:07
Speaker 1: he asked me to score his film. But also like
27:10
Speaker 1: his way of you know, although it was this student film,
27:13
Speaker 1: it was a student film called Locks for his first project,
27:15
Speaker 1: and at that time the student film, he didn't have
27:18
Speaker 1: any dialogue, so it was just music and sound effects.
27:22
Speaker 1: And the movie is beautiful. You see this this guy
27:25
Speaker 1: in Oakland with long locks, like long dreads, wandering around
27:29
Speaker 1: the streets. You see some gang members getting handcuffed by
27:34
Speaker 1: the police. He goes through the neighborhood, he sees like
27:37
Speaker 1: other kind of rough things. You and You're like, what's
27:40
Speaker 1: going on? Where is this story going to go? And
27:42
Speaker 1: then he goes into the barbershop and he gets his
27:45
Speaker 1: hair cut off. They sweep it up and they put
27:47
Speaker 1: it in a plastic bag, and then he walks on
27:50
Speaker 1: his way home and then he enters his apartment and
27:53
Speaker 1: he opens a bedroom door and you see his little
27:55
Speaker 1: sister sitting there who has cancer, and it doesn't have
27:58
Speaker 1: any hair. And that's the short film. And I wrote
28:03
Speaker 1: some music for it. And at that time, I was
28:06
Speaker 1: living in a I was living on twenty eight Street,
28:09
Speaker 1: which in LA is like fraternity Street. I didn't know
28:12
Speaker 1: what fraternity, so Storties was before I moved, and I
28:14
Speaker 1: wasn't part of the fraternity, like they had gone thrown out,
28:17
Speaker 1: so it was only for grad students. But I was
28:19
Speaker 1: sitting there in that little little room trying to write music,
28:23
Speaker 1: and it was like crazy parties going on every night
28:25
Speaker 1: on the street, you know, the all the dudes look
28:27
Speaker 1: the same and drinking from the red cups. And I really,
28:30
Speaker 1: I literally felt like I was in an American pie movie.
28:32
Speaker 1: And then Ryan comes in and we sit down and
28:35
Speaker 1: I have headphones and I give it to him and
28:37
Speaker 1: it's like Oh my god, is this guitar?
28:38
Speaker 3: Oh?
28:38
Speaker 1: What's this instrument? And it was just so excited and
28:42
Speaker 1: having that reaction and like learning about the instruments and
28:44
Speaker 1: we talk about the you know, the techniques that we
28:47
Speaker 1: played and the take and that was the that was
28:50
Speaker 1: the beginning of our working relationships. And that's still how
28:52
Speaker 1: it still feels like that.
28:55
Speaker 3: Why don't we take a look at that first collaboration
28:59
Speaker 3: for a moment so people can get a sense of
29:02
Speaker 3: what it sounded like. This is Locks directed by Ryan Coogler.
29:11
Speaker 3: H what do you think seeing that.
29:43
Speaker 1: It sounds so very early in my career, you know,
29:47
Speaker 1: like all your teacher at the time, like us, you know,
29:49
Speaker 1: you have to find your own sound and all this
29:51
Speaker 1: what are you talking like? What are you talking about?
29:54
Speaker 1: How do you find your own sound? What is that?
29:57
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that that was my own sound?
29:59
Speaker 1: But you can definitely hear some an interesting balance between
30:07
Speaker 1: like melancholy and happiness.
30:10
Speaker 3: You see, almost skeptical to say.
30:12
Speaker 1: The word, yeah, yeah, it's not the word you wanted
30:16
Speaker 1: you to describe your music, maybe, but maybe it is.
30:20
Speaker 1: Of course it should make people happy, but it can
30:22
Speaker 1: be melancholic and make you happy. In that way.
30:25
Speaker 3: I think it's an amalgamation of both. But the idea
30:28
Speaker 3: of finding your own voice that is something we all
30:32
Speaker 3: have to try to find. Was that a challenge for you.
30:37
Speaker 1: No, I mean I think for a lot of people,
30:40
Speaker 1: the way that you think about when you have to
30:42
Speaker 1: find your own voice is like, Okay, I need to
30:45
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time by myself in a room
30:48
Speaker 1: and find my own voice. Well, at least for me,
30:52
Speaker 1: the way that I did it was the complete opposite.
30:54
Speaker 1: It was opening doors to other rooms with other people
30:57
Speaker 1: and talking to them or jamming with them and learn
31:00
Speaker 1: what they do, and like being interested and you know,
31:05
Speaker 1: wanting to discover and have a musical exchange with people
31:08
Speaker 1: that came from completely different backgrounds or cultures or playing
31:12
Speaker 1: different genres and to see if we can do things together.
31:16
Speaker 1: And looking back at it now, I think that was
31:18
Speaker 1: kind of what really shaped me to become who I am.
31:22
Speaker 3: When you started working with Donald Glover, this was like
31:25
Speaker 3: before he became Childish Gambino. You were scoring community at
31:30
Speaker 3: the time. Was it around then that you developed this
31:35
Speaker 3: approach where you would say, what we're making can be cool,
31:39
Speaker 3: It's just not cool yet.
31:44
Speaker 1: Well, well, to me, when I first heard his music,
31:49
Speaker 1: I was hesitant before he even sent me into music
31:51
Speaker 1: because I knew him as being an actor and I
31:54
Speaker 1: was like, in my mind, I was like, well, okay,
31:57
Speaker 1: a lot of actors probably think they can do music too.
31:59
Speaker 1: And also in America, like people have a confidence that
32:03
Speaker 1: you don't really demonstrate like that in Sweden. So when
32:06
Speaker 1: he was like yeah, he wrote me an email like
32:08
Speaker 1: I'm also rapper and musician and I don't know a
32:11
Speaker 1: lot of people in LA, so maybe you can take
32:13
Speaker 1: a listen to the song and recommend or help me
32:16
Speaker 1: with the mixing of the track. And then he sent
32:18
Speaker 1: me a song and I was so surprised. I've run back,
32:21
Speaker 1: this is incredible. But what if we just add some
32:23
Speaker 1: drums or add some live drums, or we work a
32:26
Speaker 1: little bit on the arrangement. And he was really receptive
32:29
Speaker 1: to that, and we met up and we started to
32:31
Speaker 1: just work together for fifteen years. But I thought his
32:35
Speaker 1: music was cool from the jump, and I just I
32:37
Speaker 1: was like, is there any way we can make this better?
32:39
Speaker 1: If any way I can just help in any way,
32:42
Speaker 1: I would love to be part of it.
32:43
Speaker 3: In those early collaborations, first on Cul de Sac, then
32:47
Speaker 3: camp then because of the Internet, did it feel like
32:51
Speaker 3: it was uncharted territory for you?
32:54
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I mean I'd listened to rap music, not like
32:57
Speaker 1: the standard ones. Like the record I had listened to
33:00
Speaker 1: the most was a Fox and Brown album because I
33:03
Speaker 1: just thought it was so cool how she had like
33:05
Speaker 1: Egyptian music on there, and like how they use those samples.
33:08
Speaker 1: I was listening to the and like midnight Culture is
33:10
Speaker 1: like over and over and over again. I didn't have
33:12
Speaker 1: that deep knowledge of hip hop at the time, and
33:15
Speaker 1: I was and I had never really done a beat.
33:17
Speaker 1: But that's also what's so exciting. He was kind of
33:20
Speaker 1: introducing it to me and showing me like all these
33:22
Speaker 1: incredible songs I didn't know, and it was like to me,
33:26
Speaker 1: like yeah, learning in a new instrument, And it was
33:29
Speaker 1: the most exciting thing for me.
33:31
Speaker 3: You know. Around the time you two started really getting going,
33:35
Speaker 3: you Donald and a bunch of your friends starred in
33:38
Speaker 3: a short film directed by Hiro Maria called Clapping for
33:42
Speaker 3: the Wrong Reasons. Now, this is a movie I personally
33:46
Speaker 3: obsessed over with my friends as as soon to be
33:49
Speaker 3: freshman in college back in twenty thirteen. Well, why don't
33:53
Speaker 3: we take a look at one scene in particular where
33:56
Speaker 3: you are playing on the guitar a little bit.
34:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I haven't seen that in ten years.
34:50
Speaker 3: And what do you think.
34:51
Speaker 1: I think we're all like searching. I think Donald was
34:54
Speaker 1: definitely searching. And I didn't know, you know, how big
34:58
Speaker 1: part of I was going to have on the record,
35:01
Speaker 1: or if I was going to be part of it.
35:02
Speaker 1: It was a very kind of uncertain time for me
35:06
Speaker 1: at least. And then there was those There was those
35:09
Speaker 1: joy of moments where we were in the studio in
35:12
Speaker 1: that it was like one of the libraries and we
35:14
Speaker 1: were in the studio there and I think it was
35:17
Speaker 1: Chris bosh Old House, just out of nowhere. Like I was,
35:20
Speaker 1: I was always kind of on the spot to come
35:22
Speaker 1: up with something in the moment really really quick. I
35:25
Speaker 1: was both stressful but also kind of exciting. And because
35:29
Speaker 1: Donal had a lot of that time, I was like,
35:31
Speaker 1: because he had a lot of things on his mind,
35:33
Speaker 1: so if something was going to stick, we had a
35:35
Speaker 1: very short amount of time in the stuito where where
35:37
Speaker 1: he could just kind of get into the music. And
35:41
Speaker 1: even though he spent a lot of time in the studio,
35:42
Speaker 1: but I feel like when I was there, like we
35:44
Speaker 1: had to do something quick, and it was a little
35:47
Speaker 1: it was stressful, and then something great came out of it,
35:50
Speaker 1: and it was like it was like kind of a
35:51
Speaker 1: moment of joy and I was and and when that
35:54
Speaker 1: little moment of joy happened, it was like hot. You know,
35:56
Speaker 1: I had sustained that, you know, Okay, five minutes, ten minutes, okay,
36:00
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. Oh this is sturning through song twenty you know.
36:02
Speaker 1: So it was like it was a strange time. And
36:05
Speaker 1: also like with all the albums that he's done, like
36:08
Speaker 1: I don't know where he's taking it and don't know
36:11
Speaker 1: where we're going. We just start off like driving blindless
36:16
Speaker 1: At least me on that album, I thought we took
36:19
Speaker 1: it to some really interesting places.
36:22
Speaker 3: The way you're describing it, like that period of searching,
36:26
Speaker 3: even now a decade removed, it still sounds as if
36:31
Speaker 3: it's kind of a mystery to you.
36:33
Speaker 1: It was a mystery because I was also in a
36:36
Speaker 1: situation where I didn't I didn't understand those feelings that
36:40
Speaker 1: I had. It was all about like trying to get
36:42
Speaker 1: these music out. And I guess I think like the
36:44
Speaker 1: feelings came out in the music. I mean, I know
36:46
Speaker 1: that the feelings came out of music, and that's why
36:49
Speaker 1: it's so interesting to hear that now, you know, I
36:51
Speaker 1: can hear that anxcitty and stress, but the magic in
36:54
Speaker 1: that and just those little few guitar chords that I heard,
36:57
Speaker 1: and it's like a calming thing, especially that song like
37:01
Speaker 1: the Flight of the Navigator. They all kind of feel
37:04
Speaker 1: like you're a kid or you know, and playing that
37:07
Speaker 1: in your room, and I think, but a lot of
37:09
Speaker 1: it comes back to maybe sitting there being a kid
37:13
Speaker 1: and being feeling lonely and sitting in your room and
37:16
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what life's about.
37:18
Speaker 3: Back in the basement. Yeah, it sounds to me like
37:22
Speaker 3: it was like a self soothing sound, like you're feeling
37:26
Speaker 3: all this anxiety and yet that track we just heard
37:31
Speaker 3: is extremely calming and kind of self soothing.
37:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's I don't know if you have kids,
37:39
Speaker 1: but it's definitely a thing you see when you start
37:42
Speaker 1: to understand a little thing a little bit with the
37:45
Speaker 1: self soothing thing and how everyone finds their own ways
37:48
Speaker 1: to self soothe. Some kids sucking her thumbs, some kids
37:52
Speaker 1: like touch their face in a different way.
37:54
Speaker 3: Some you know, some kids jam out to Metallica.
37:57
Speaker 1: Some kids jam out to Metallica and makes sad, melancholic
38:02
Speaker 1: songs that are also happy all happens in them because
38:06
Speaker 1: you have great support from your parents. But yeah, there
38:11
Speaker 1: was I was definitely. I think when I think back
38:13
Speaker 1: at it, too, I was lonely also a lot as
38:15
Speaker 1: a as a kid. You know, my parents also they
38:19
Speaker 1: also worked a lot, and my sister was six years older,
38:22
Speaker 1: so spent a lot of time just by myself too.
38:25
Speaker 3: You've clearly used that loneliness and channeled it into the work.
38:29
Speaker 3: And I wanted to pinpoint those two moments with Coogler
38:34
Speaker 3: and Glover because at least to me, they seem like
38:37
Speaker 3: the foundational building blocks of what would become a decade
38:42
Speaker 3: long collaboration, going from Black Panther with Ryan for What
38:47
Speaker 3: You Want an Oscar to producing This Is America with
38:50
Speaker 3: Donald for Which You Want a Grammy, which, of course,
38:54
Speaker 3: through this decade brings us back to Oppenheimer. And part
38:59
Speaker 3: of this film is about a man obsessed with his work,
39:04
Speaker 3: a man who moves further and further into this project
39:08
Speaker 3: and farther in farther away from his family. And as
39:13
Speaker 3: I was rewatching it last night, I was reminded of
39:16
Speaker 3: this quote you had where you said, when I go
39:20
Speaker 3: into the studio, regardless of whether I write the music,
39:23
Speaker 3: produce an album, or write a film score, you just
39:26
Speaker 3: immerse yourself into this other world. You become obsessed. Most
39:31
Speaker 3: artists are extremists. You close yourself off and the work
39:35
Speaker 3: becomes your world. That obsession that's central to Oppenheimer. Did
39:41
Speaker 3: you feel that kinship in making this score for it?
39:46
Speaker 1: I think that's very true, but I don't consciously. I
39:49
Speaker 1: don't think about any of that when I'm in the process.
39:52
Speaker 1: It's more afterwards, like the conversation we have now, where
39:56
Speaker 1: I see that being a pattern in the way.
39:58
Speaker 3: I work, the pattern of obsession, and for me, that's.
40:02
Speaker 1: The only way I can do it, really. And I
40:04
Speaker 1: think also with age comes, you know, you get a
40:07
Speaker 1: little bit of different. You're having your starting family, You're
40:11
Speaker 1: starting to see your priorities in a different way. But
40:14
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I'm doing having the wrong priorities.
40:16
Speaker 1: But I've definitely been the last fifteen years just non
40:20
Speaker 1: stop doing that, you know, without breaks, like extremist world
40:26
Speaker 1: to extremist, and they're all so extremely different too. It
40:29
Speaker 1: was also why I think It works for me because
40:31
Speaker 1: it's so I'm like a different person, different world every time,
40:34
Speaker 1: and it's so exciting to discover these places, but it
40:37
Speaker 1: also takes a toll.
40:39
Speaker 3: What toll has it taken?
40:42
Speaker 1: I think more now for me, it's more important to
40:45
Speaker 1: kind of take the time after you finish something like
40:47
Speaker 1: this and think about how it affected you and think
40:51
Speaker 1: about how what happened, you know, how it happened, how
40:54
Speaker 1: it came together, and where the places you went and
40:57
Speaker 1: reflecting more. I guess I'm just more interested in that now,
41:01
Speaker 1: where before that I was just on a train, on
41:03
Speaker 1: stuff train, and I realized now how all these experiences
41:07
Speaker 1: had such a deep impact in me, both on music
41:11
Speaker 1: levels but personal levels. And I'm excited because after I
41:15
Speaker 1: finished Oppenheimer, now I've had some time to engage with
41:20
Speaker 1: everything else in my life, and that's kind of a
41:24
Speaker 1: very exciting chapter for me.
41:26
Speaker 3: We've spent a lot of time talking about, you know,
41:29
Speaker 3: the personal side of making music, in the process, your process,
41:35
Speaker 3: but when we take a step back, this film is
41:38
Speaker 3: like coming out at a very fascinating time, especially in
41:44
Speaker 3: Hollywood because of course there's this strike that's happening and
41:49
Speaker 3: one of the big existential fears and issues. At play
41:55
Speaker 3: is the use of artificial intelligence, which throughout the film's release,
42:00
Speaker 3: Nolan has explicitly made the comparison between Oppenheimer developing the
42:06
Speaker 3: A bomb in the early forties and the theoretical physicists
42:10
Speaker 3: that faced backlash an uncertainty from the US military and Congress,
42:14
Speaker 3: much like the tech industry is facing today in its
42:17
Speaker 3: race to make AI more powerful. He said, quote when
42:21
Speaker 3: I talk to leading researchers in the field of AI
42:24
Speaker 3: right now, they literally refer to this as their Oppenheimer moment.
42:29
Speaker 3: They're looking to a story to say, Okay, what are
42:31
Speaker 3: the responsibilities for scientists developing new technologies that may have
42:36
Speaker 3: unintended consequences? When it comes to making music? Where are
42:41
Speaker 3: you at on what AI can do, will do, how
42:46
Speaker 3: will change the job itself?
42:50
Speaker 1: I'm very interested in these type of questions and in
42:54
Speaker 1: the technology. And it's not even at their doorshups already
42:57
Speaker 1: entered our houses, enter our living rooms, and our listening experiences,
43:01
Speaker 1: especially you know with that Drake Weekend song that everyone
43:05
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know how many million views it has,
43:07
Speaker 1: but it's quite a lot heard it yet, so you
43:11
Speaker 1: can't like deny that it's going to change music forever.
43:15
Speaker 1: You can have anyone sitting in the room and just like, oh,
43:18
Speaker 1: I want to have a beat that sounds like Michael
43:20
Speaker 1: Jackson from the seventies, and I want Brunan Morris to
43:23
Speaker 1: sing a happy birthday message to my wife because he
43:26
Speaker 1: loves him. You know, I don't think there's a way
43:28
Speaker 1: to stop that from happening. I think we all just
43:31
Speaker 1: need to embrace it and know that it's here. I
43:34
Speaker 1: think it's going to be a big shift in music
43:37
Speaker 1: about you going to be able to hear the difference,
43:40
Speaker 1: you know. I think people are really going to be
43:42
Speaker 1: able to hear the difference in what's made with computers
43:46
Speaker 1: and what's not made with computers, and how much computer
43:51
Speaker 1: was a part of this and how much what computer
43:53
Speaker 1: wasn't a part of it.
43:53
Speaker 3: Do you think people will be able to distinguish between
43:56
Speaker 3: the two.
43:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. I think maybe there'd be a different service
44:00
Speaker 1: like AI music will be cheaper and music that people
44:04
Speaker 1: put their own minds and heart and brains to would
44:07
Speaker 1: be more expensive. And I think everyone's going to start
44:10
Speaker 1: using these tools that are going to come to place,
44:13
Speaker 1: and it's just like what shortcuts do you want to take,
44:16
Speaker 1: like how much you want to shut your own creativity off?
44:19
Speaker 1: And I think that's going to be some important decisions
44:22
Speaker 1: you're going to have to make.
44:23
Speaker 3: Have you been thinking about that for yourself, Like what
44:26
Speaker 3: you're willing to use and not use? Shortcuts taken not taken?
44:30
Speaker 1: No, I want tot try it all, give it all
44:32
Speaker 1: to me and see what I can how I can
44:34
Speaker 1: customize it as much as possible and make it. But
44:37
Speaker 1: I don't have any tools yet, so I don't I
44:39
Speaker 1: haven't worked with any AI software or things yet. But
44:44
Speaker 1: I think that's just a matter of like probably months
44:46
Speaker 1: or weeks or it's already things out there that I
44:50
Speaker 1: think people are using now. I want to see what
44:52
Speaker 1: it's all about.
44:53
Speaker 3: You sound completely unafraid about this future. You're kind of
44:56
Speaker 3: one of the first people I've talked to that seems
44:59
Speaker 3: only optimistic.
45:02
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about the music aspect of it. There's
45:04
Speaker 1: other problems, obviously, think it's other consequences, but the music
45:10
Speaker 1: aspect of it, I I don't think, at least for me,
45:15
Speaker 1: I don't see any threats in computers making music. Some
45:18
Speaker 1: people are going to listen to it. Something's going to
45:21
Speaker 1: be great. It just it just kind of depends on
45:23
Speaker 1: who's who's making.
45:24
Speaker 3: It well before technology changes, how this job is fundamentally done.
45:29
Speaker 3: Why don't we celebrate a human feat? Is there a
45:33
Speaker 3: track from Oppenheimer that you are most proud of, like
45:37
Speaker 3: one that you want people to hear as we leave
45:41
Speaker 3: this conversation.
45:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, we should probably play the can you hear the music?
45:46
Speaker 3: Track?
45:46
Speaker 1: And for me that was one that was like a
45:49
Speaker 1: breakthrough moment I had on this project, but also in
45:54
Speaker 1: a way I have made music in kind of in
45:59
Speaker 1: a technical level, but also but also it was like
46:01
Speaker 1: kind of like a Eureka moment for me, like on
46:04
Speaker 1: a technical level, writing a composition that goes faster, faster
46:09
Speaker 1: and faster, but after a while, after a couple of bars,
46:12
Speaker 1: you don't even the listener and the audience doesn't even
46:15
Speaker 1: feel it and think about it. It's just it all,
46:18
Speaker 1: it's just an emotion. And then one of the important
46:22
Speaker 1: parts of the process was to figure out a way
46:25
Speaker 1: how we can get the orchestra to perform this in
46:27
Speaker 1: one take, because if you see the charts, it's literally
46:31
Speaker 1: like twenty one tempo changes. It goes faster, slower, faster, slower,
46:35
Speaker 1: and if you just see it on the page, you're like,
46:38
Speaker 1: this is not You're not going to get four to
46:39
Speaker 1: string players who play this in a way where it's
46:41
Speaker 1: going to sound good in one take. But we worked
46:44
Speaker 1: on this for three days and kind of banging our
46:47
Speaker 1: heads against the walls, like how can we get this
46:50
Speaker 1: performance right? In the ends, like Sereno, she was like, well,
46:54
Speaker 1: these musicians are incredible. She's been playing with them for
46:57
Speaker 1: fifteen years through like the Hollwood Studio Symphony, and they
47:00
Speaker 1: this is their job. They sit in the studio and
47:02
Speaker 1: played seven hours a day to click to a metronome.
47:05
Speaker 1: And we figured out a way to give the musicians
47:08
Speaker 1: a click in their head, the tempo change or time
47:11
Speaker 1: change in their mind and their heads before it happens
47:13
Speaker 1: on the page. And when we gave them that track,
47:17
Speaker 1: it just this magic happened. So that's really interesting how
47:21
Speaker 1: you combine technology and computers, because this music you couldn't
47:25
Speaker 1: have really written it with our computers. But then putting
47:29
Speaker 1: that organic element into it with the live string players
47:32
Speaker 1: playing it all in one taken organic way gives it
47:35
Speaker 1: so much life and makes it timeless and makes it
47:38
Speaker 1: feel like it's human.
47:40
Speaker 3: I guess we should listen to how that all turned out?
47:43
Speaker 3: All right? This is can you hear the music from
47:46
Speaker 3: the film Appenheimer, don't when you're listening to that. Could
49:15
Speaker 3: you have ever imagine that that young, lonely kid playing
49:20
Speaker 3: music in the basement would one day create something like that?
49:25
Speaker 1: No, I don't, I don't. I don't see that in
49:27
Speaker 1: the charts. My dreams was to become a member of Metallica.
49:31
Speaker 1: That never happened. There's still time, it's still time. No,
49:35
Speaker 1: but it's like it's like my dream was you know,
49:37
Speaker 1: I was. I was streaming about playing my instrument, being
49:39
Speaker 1: on stage and playing big crowds, and and we've done that,
49:44
Speaker 1: you know, we did that with Childish And and then
49:47
Speaker 1: I was streaming of being a pop producer and being
49:50
Speaker 1: producing music and that happened too, And and then I
49:53
Speaker 1: was dreaming about being a film composer, and then that
49:56
Speaker 1: happened too, And and musically, all all those goals and
50:01
Speaker 1: milestones and stones, just I guess I was. I was lucky.
50:05
Speaker 3: I kind of bring up that basement once more as really,
50:09
Speaker 3: because I've heard that this past summer you went back
50:13
Speaker 3: down and to that basement with your mother where you
50:17
Speaker 3: were looking for toys for your kids. What was that
50:21
Speaker 3: like to go back to that place, not for you
50:24
Speaker 3: but for your children. It was kind of magical, you know,
50:28
Speaker 3: you're kind of stepping into that. At that time was
50:31
Speaker 3: just all the reality and now it's a memory. But
50:34
Speaker 3: it was my safe space. It was my soothing place,
50:38
Speaker 3: you know, where I felt calm, and that's where I
50:42
Speaker 3: felt most like myself. It was a beautiful moment going
50:46
Speaker 3: back there, and everything obviously felt super small, So I
50:49
Speaker 3: feel like I was a giant now and the limpid land.
50:53
Speaker 3: See all those guitars still hanging on the wall, seeing
50:55
Speaker 3: those old tape machines, old tape records I used to use,
50:58
Speaker 3: and how they're all still there, And yeah, just thinking
51:02
Speaker 3: about like where it's you know, what am we gonna
51:04
Speaker 3: do with all this when I get old? And I'm
51:08
Speaker 3: like kids to do the same thing at like what Yeah,
51:11
Speaker 3: it's a lot of also a lot of questions. Did
51:13
Speaker 3: you find the high school report or something like that?
51:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I found a high school report? Right, I
51:20
Speaker 1: guess you talked. Did you talk to my mom?
51:21
Speaker 3: Yeah? I called her up. I called her up right
51:23
Speaker 3: before this.
51:24
Speaker 1: Now I didn't talk to her, So how do you.
51:25
Speaker 3: Know you said it in an interview. Oh okay, yeah,
51:28
Speaker 3: I really appreciate that. You think I called your mother
51:31
Speaker 3: before this podcast. It means we've done our job.
51:34
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I was like, yeah, you really don uh no,
51:37
Speaker 1: but I yeah, found the high school report of my
51:40
Speaker 1: five Minutes of Christmas when I wrote about the process
51:43
Speaker 1: how I created it, and it's still in my in
51:46
Speaker 1: my backpack, Like I don't know why. I like I
51:48
Speaker 1: see it laying there and like I know that I
51:51
Speaker 1: I want to read it, but at the same time,
51:53
Speaker 1: I don't want to go back to that kid that
51:55
Speaker 1: I was and the way I was thinking about music
51:58
Speaker 1: then because it's it's uh. I feel like it's because
52:01
Speaker 1: like I thought I had it all figured out, you know,
52:06
Speaker 1: I was like, right the report about it, this is
52:08
Speaker 1: how you make me. But now I can I know
52:12
Speaker 1: now that I didn't know. You know, I didn't have
52:14
Speaker 1: it figure it out.
52:15
Speaker 3: You've been really putting it off.
52:17
Speaker 1: I've been really putting that off. Maybe I knows who's
52:20
Speaker 1: going to bring back like a lot of memories and
52:23
Speaker 1: emotions and I just need to find the right space
52:25
Speaker 1: to do that.
52:26
Speaker 3: Well, whatever that is, I'm excited for you to revisit
52:30
Speaker 3: that past self. But until then, I want to look
52:34
Speaker 3: ahead a little bit because one of the other main
52:37
Speaker 3: components of a Nolan movie is time, how we use it,
52:42
Speaker 3: how we try to bend it to our will, how
52:45
Speaker 3: we regard time that has passed or time that has
52:48
Speaker 3: yet to come. But time is also something I think
52:52
Speaker 3: you've long been preoccupied by, well before you began working
52:57
Speaker 3: with Nolan on Tenant, Because isn't it true that when
53:00
Speaker 3: you left for America at age twenty two, landing here
53:05
Speaker 3: in Los Angeles enrolled at USC did you map out
53:10
Speaker 3: how you wanted your career to go.
53:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel like I've always had like I always
53:15
Speaker 1: had the five year plan, a tenure plan, and like
53:17
Speaker 1: I always know where I'm going to be the next
53:19
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know how that's where that comes from,
53:22
Speaker 1: but it's always been kind of milestones in my mind
53:26
Speaker 1: about where I want to be and what I want
53:28
Speaker 1: to do, And I guess is some kind of magic. Right.
53:32
Speaker 1: You create your own future.
53:34
Speaker 3: Your mother said when you moved here, here were the
53:37
Speaker 3: big three things. Get a job as an assistant one
53:40
Speaker 3: year after graduation, score your own projects after three years,
53:45
Speaker 3: Win an academy award within twelve years. Sometimes she said,
53:50
Speaker 3: he's much faster than what he planned.
53:52
Speaker 1: The all times reality, I guess, but yeah, that's interesting.
53:56
Speaker 3: Well, now that you're back home and you're sitting with
54:00
Speaker 3: this past year and thinking about what's to come, what
54:03
Speaker 3: do you want down the line?
54:06
Speaker 1: I think right now, just I know how I work,
54:12
Speaker 1: I know what makes me happy. I know what type
54:15
Speaker 1: of process makes me happy, what kind of collaborators makes
54:18
Speaker 1: me happy, And if I can get that and have
54:22
Speaker 1: the time to enjoy with my family as well, I
54:25
Speaker 1: think that's the only thing that I mean, I'm asking
54:28
Speaker 1: for a lot, but I'm not sure how I'm going
54:30
Speaker 1: to do it, but I think I know a way,
54:32
Speaker 1: and I feel like every day I'm I'm getting closer
54:36
Speaker 1: to the answers of all those questions you have and
54:40
Speaker 1: also all those questions I had and feelings that I
54:42
Speaker 1: didn't even think about as a kid. And it's like
54:44
Speaker 1: I'm trying to trying to like going back into those
54:47
Speaker 1: times and understanding it now. And I realized how important
54:50
Speaker 1: that is from like a musical clarity of it. I'm
54:55
Speaker 1: probably more excited than I ever been to to kind
54:58
Speaker 1: of step back into it and discover new paths and
55:01
Speaker 1: new ways and new worlds. And that's also why I
55:05
Speaker 1: wanted to take a little time off and to really
55:08
Speaker 1: get back into that that space again.
55:11
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing you said when we sat down
55:14
Speaker 3: was I'm afraid to cut my long hair because it
55:19
Speaker 3: may make me a different person. I may be someone new.
55:25
Speaker 3: And I have to say, after having sat here with
55:28
Speaker 3: you for this last hour, I kind of think you
55:30
Speaker 3: don't need to cut your hair to become a different person.
55:35
Speaker 3: It's already happening right now.
55:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, thank you. Yeah, I'll keep it.
55:40
Speaker 3: If not for me, then for Ryan Coogler.
55:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.
55:46
Speaker 3: And whatever person you end up becoming and whatever you
55:48
Speaker 3: make because of it, I am so looking forward to it.
55:52
Speaker 3: And I just want to thank you on a personal
55:54
Speaker 3: level for making so much of the music that was
56:00
Speaker 3: kind of a soundtrack to my formative high school college years,
56:04
Speaker 3: without which I don't think I would be the strange
56:07
Speaker 3: other long haired person and sitting in this zoom call.
56:13
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that, and we should meet up some
56:15
Speaker 1: time in real life and be that's too strange white
56:18
Speaker 1: guys with long hair singing in the back of the
56:20
Speaker 1: coffee shop.
56:23
Speaker 3: I look forward to Ludvig enjoy the rest of the summer,
56:27
Speaker 3: you too, Sam.
56:27
Speaker 1: It was a great time talking to you and I
56:30
Speaker 1: really appreciate this conversation.
56:31
Speaker 3: Thank you until next time, and that's our show. If
57:04
Speaker 3: you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to leave us five
57:06
Speaker 3: stars on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you like to listen.
57:10
Speaker 3: I want to give a special thanks this week to
57:12
Speaker 3: the team at Online Voices in Stockholm, the Academy Library,
57:17
Speaker 3: id PR, Universal and of course Ludwig Gorenson. To learn
57:23
Speaker 3: more about all of the music discussed in today's episode,
57:27
Speaker 3: be sure to visit our show notes at talk easypod
57:30
Speaker 3: dot com for more conversations. I'd recommend our talks with
57:34
Speaker 3: Pedro Pascal Hero, Marie Tessa Thompson, Alana Hiam, Deb Hines
57:39
Speaker 3: and Ruth E. Carter to hear those in more Pushkin podcasts.
57:43
Speaker 3: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen.
57:48
Speaker 3: You can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram at
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Speaker 3: talk easypod. If you want to purchase one of our
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Speaker 3: mugs they Come and Cream or Navy, or our vinyl
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Speaker 3: record with writer fran Leebowitz, you can do so at
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Speaker 3: talk easypod dot com. Slash Shop that's Talk easypod dot
58:06
Speaker 3: com slash Shop Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok.
58:11
Speaker 3: Our executive producer is Janixa Bravo. Our associate producer is
58:15
Speaker 3: Caitlin Dryden. Our research and production assistant is Paulina Suarez.
58:19
Speaker 3: Today's talk was edited by Caitlin Dryden and mixed by
58:22
Speaker 3: Andrew Vastola. Our assistant editors are Clarice Gavara and c J. Mitchell.
58:27
Speaker 3: Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by
58:30
Speaker 3: Christia Schenoy. Video and graphics by Ian Chang, Derek Gamberzac,
58:33
Speaker 3: Ian Jones and Ethan Senca. I also want to thank
58:36
Speaker 3: our team at Pushkin Industries, Justin Richmond, Julia Barton, John
58:40
Speaker 3: shnar Is, Kerrie Brody, David Glover, Heather Fame, Eric Sandler,
58:43
Speaker 3: Jordan McMillan, Isabella Narvais, Kira Posey, Tera Machado, Maya Canning,
58:48
Speaker 3: Jason Gambrel, Justine lang Lee, Tom Mallode, Malcolm Gladwell and
58:53
Speaker 3: Jacob Weisberg. I'm Sam Fragoso, thank you for listening to
58:57
Speaker 3: Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next week with
59:01
Speaker 3: another episode. Until then, Stay Safe and so on is
59:10
Speaker 3: PCPs