Latest / Conversations with Cumberland Heights / Faith, Music, and Addiction Recovery with Joseph Habedank | Episode 44

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Faith, Music, and Addiction Recovery with Joseph Habedank | Episode 44 · Conversations with Cumberland Heights

0:00
Oh, yeah.
0:01
No, I don't think he's watching that.
0:02
Well, for the purposes of the podcast, let's introduce ourselves because, like,
0:06
you know, and this isn't staged, but we haven't met each other.
0:08
We just. Yeah, it's true for the first time. So.
0:11
Not that I recall. When.
0:11
When was the last time you were here?
0:14
Let's see.
0:15
Well, I went to treatment here in 13.
0:17
Okay, but I haven't.
0:18
I've been back several times to for the music room.
0:22
Meetings and then, like, I spoke, I sang a couple times at chapel.
0:26
Yeah, actually.
0:27
So I just think I might have been a CA for one of those songs.
0:30
Okay.
0:30
I started hearing 16, so yeah, I've been here since I was a CA then,
0:34
and then I moved up to RCA, and I'm the alumni director now.
0:37
Oh no kidding. Yeah. So I'm over all the alumni.
0:39
That's why I wanted to.
0:40
That's one of the main reasons I wanted to meet you.
0:41
And and that's why they reached out to me.
0:43
Because who was the guy who's in charge of alumni before the after care meetings?
0:48
Well, Johnny is still here. Johnny. Yeah. Yeah.
0:50
So I love Johnny.
0:51
So Johnny, Johnny Rosen is kind of a fixture and and he's not going anywhere.
0:54
He got the godfather of Cumberland.
0:57
Yeah, So my introduction would be, I'm Joseph Habedank,
1:02
recovering,
1:04
went to treatment Cumberland Heights,
1:07
June 8th, 2013 was opioid pill head and,
1:11
and, yeah, just got clean, started doing the thing.
1:15
And, was here for 30 days at five weeks of outpatient.
1:19
Well, the 90 and 90 after that.
1:22
Did you go to Sumner County for.
1:24
Oh, I went to,
1:26
Lebanon.
1:27
It's not limited to one in Hermitage.
1:29
Hermitage. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:31
David Sappington was in charge all the time.
1:33
I don't know if you go with us. Yeah, yeah. He's he really.
1:35
He pops around. Yeah. I think he's doing something a little different now.
1:38
He's a musician I think. Yes. Yeah, a drummer.
1:40
Yeah. The fire call.
1:42
Yeah.
1:42
I remember when he told me I'd done like 30 days of inpatient,
1:47
five weeks of outpatient.
1:48
I thought I was done right. Yeah.
1:50
And he was like, why don't you do 99?
1:51
Yeah. I was like, what is that? And then he tried.
1:54
He explained to me, I was like, nah, I mean, I wanted to get clean, but
1:57
I was like, that just seems excessive, like 90 me why, why what's going on there?
2:02
Yeah. So, you know, I did it.
2:04
What? Do you not trust me?
2:05
Yeah. Come on, man, I'm healed. Yeah, yeah.
2:08
No. And, so I did what he I did what he said, and, started,
2:13
I got a sponsor and, guy in the music field and,
2:17
kind of a legendary musician in the Christian music
2:20
field and, so that was cool.
2:23
So this was all afterward?
2:24
Yeah. After I went to treatment.
2:26
You know, I was a weird. I was kind of a weird,
2:30
patient because I liked.
2:31
I really liked rehab.
2:33
I don't know why I, I think it was where I was homeschooled, maybe.
2:37
And so I never really had that sense of community.
2:40
Sure.
2:41
I mean, we'd go to church.
2:43
I was a church kid, so.
2:44
I mean, that was kind of community driven. Sure.
2:46
But treatment just felt like kind of like church camp to me.
2:49
Church camp every day. Yeah. Except you couldn't use drugs. Yeah.
2:52
Which is church camp. You probably shouldn't be doing that.
2:54
But it's a campus atmosphere, too.
2:55
So I think a lot of times it's the first time they're able to, like,
2:59
really integrate into what feels like a home like I detoxed.
3:03
Yeah, I agree, I detoxed at home.
3:05
I didn't know you were supposed to do like, like facility or like in a hospital.
3:11
So, you know, opioid detox is pretty brutal.
3:14
Sure.
3:14
And it was in May, end of May and 2013 and I was shaking
3:19
you just cold, freezing heated blanket
3:23
fireplaces on space heaters on my wife's like my wife is,
3:27
you know, we don't I've been married three years.
3:28
So she walks by and I'm shaking.
3:29
She'd be like, well, you did it to yourself.
3:32
Is that kind of thing like she was.
3:33
And she was always there, but she was straight up like, yeah.
3:36
And then, then checked in.
3:39
I remember I went to a counseling session.
3:41
It was like a recovery counselor,
3:44
and he had gotten clean doing AA just two meetings.
3:47
So I was contemplating that.
3:49
And then he was like, there's this place
3:52
just outside of Nashville called Cumberland Heights.
3:54
And he's like,
3:55
I don't know what happens.
3:56
It's like when you walk on the campus, like you just feel something different.
4:00
And I was like, I want to go there.
4:02
Yeah.
4:02
It's whenever he said that, I was like, I just want to go there.
4:04
Yeah, because I just wanted to,
4:06
you know, as an addict, you just want to feel something. Yeah.
4:09
You know, I was like, I want to feel the magic word.
4:11
I want to feel some good.
4:12
Yeah.
4:12
You know, and so, so I came for a visit.
4:17
I was so pretentious, like, I was going to come for a visit and check it out.
4:21
Who does that?
4:22
But they let me do a lot of people who try that.
4:24
Yeah, they let me do it, but I enjoyed it.
4:26
You know, I like I had to I'm a little OCD, like I'm very
4:31
I'm a clean freak, neat freak.
4:33
And so I wanted
4:34
they mentioned this place that didn't have I think it's called New Life Lodge.
4:37
Is that still around?
4:38
And back in the day, apparently it didn't have like air conditioning.
4:42
Yeah, it's changed a lot. It's under a different name now.
4:44
And they were like, yeah, there's this place real rustic.
4:47
I'm like, nah, I'm good on that.
4:48
And so I was like, I think I'm going to get clean at a place
4:52
that has air conditioning.
4:53
Like I think feel like that's going to be better suited for me.
4:55
So I was a little bit, you know, you got that pride aspect.
4:57
Sure. But yeah. The doors. Yeah.
5:01
And I checked in here and I remember the first night,
5:05
we had that it was prime rib night.
5:07
I don't know if they still do that.
5:08
Oh, you came in on a Saturday. Saturday?
5:11
In fact, if I were to go back and look at my calendar, I think it was June 8th.
5:15
But anyway, I check in.
5:17
I'm in admissions, you know, I'm in the I'm in the,
5:20
medical is what we used to call.
5:22
They still call medical.
5:23
And, of course, you got to stay there the first few nights, even though you're.
5:26
Yeah, I'd already detox.
5:28
I was like, why am I, you know, I can move in, right?
5:30
But, then they said, dinner, dinner's ready.
5:32
So we went to, went over to the dining hall and it was like prime rib.
5:38
And I was like, I'm gonna like this place.
5:40
Prime rib, potato bar.
5:42
Oh, to drink sweet tea.
5:44
And at that time, they had like this chef that apparently.
5:48
I don't know if this is true, but, you know, there's so many rooms.
5:50
They were like, This is Arnold Palmer's personal chef.
5:53
Oh, like the thing I remember there. That's a fun one.
5:55
I've heard a lot of them, but there was a rumor going around that
5:59
Alicia Keys had checked in three week, which was not true.
6:02
Okay, anybody watching is not not I don't no, it was at least UK.
6:06
Yeah, yeah at least UK.
6:07
Yeah.
6:08
And I gue so every you know and all the guys it was this big secret right.
6:12
They were all like Alicia Keys here. We don't tell anybody.
6:14
So I'd walk around and go this girl is on fire.
6:17
And they'd be like, dude, you can't do that.
6:20
But yeah, it was fun times, man. It was fun.
6:22
And then I think at first I wasn't really taking it very serious.
6:25
And then I had a counselor I couldn't remember his name was a younger
6:29
guy, but he was like, man, aren't you a church guy?
6:33
And I was like, yeah, I'm a Christian. Yeah, I grew up in church.
6:35
And he goes, I think you can really help these guys.
6:37
If you start taking this seriously.
6:39
And I was like, I was like, I'm not here to help people.
6:42
Like, I'm here to get help, right?
6:44
I just thought I was so sick, sure that I couldn't be of any use to anybody else.
6:48
But when he said that, it changed my it kind of changed my outlook.
6:54
And so I started
6:55
not really giving it back because I didn't know anything about recovery.
6:58
I was trying to get clean, but I just was trying to be steady and,
7:02
try to take it seriously.
7:03
I remember in the first
7:04
few like, meetings, classes, I was goofing off and just laughing.
7:08
And I had one of the guys was different guy.
7:10
One of the patients came to me was like, dude, some of us are here to try,
7:14
actually try to get clean and you're just goofing off in these meetings.
7:17
And I was like,
7:19
and it kind of made me mad, you know, because I was like,
7:21
dude, I'm just having fun, man. I'm just glad to be.
7:24
I was probably riding that pink cloud a little bit, you know?
7:27
And it's that's what it's call. Right. Pink cloud.
7:29
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
7:30
And they still got I don't know if I still have my rehab lingo,
7:33
but I still go to meetings.
7:35
But but anyway, the,
7:37
Yeah, when he told me that
7:39
it was kind of like this wake up call for me, and,
7:42
I didn't like it, but I started kind of kind of dialing in
7:46
and asking questions, and and, I love treatment.
7:50
You know?
7:51
I love this place.
7:51
I came when I came in today.
7:54
I, you know, took a video of the
7:56
the sign and just so grateful I don't have to check in.
7:59
Yeah. Today, you know, no bags necessary.
8:01
Yeah.
8:02
I just grateful to be to be back.
8:04
And it really is a great place to be.
8:06
Yeah, absolutely.
8:08
I feel like I should interview you now. Okay.
8:10
So you were an addict to Amazon? Yeah.
8:12
You are an addict.
8:13
So what do you what what was your doc?
8:16
You know, I never got to choose to all honestly there.
8:19
Yeah I was I wasn't I wasn't a very particular guy when it came to that.
8:23
I mean there were phases obviously, but I was I was particular so much in mine.
8:26
I was so young.
8:28
I got clean at 21.
8:29
And so now kid, all the way through, you know, it just really depended
8:33
on how much I could afford.
8:34
And the more money I had, the more drugs I did.
8:37
And you talked about 2021 or when you were 21?
8:39
When I was 21.
8:40
Yeah. Well, 2008 30.
8:42
So you're you've got a few more years of me.
8:45
Yeah.
8:46
Yeah, I just celebrated 12 years and, it's crazy because,
8:52
I don't know what it is.
8:53
It's like the longer
8:54
it goes, like, I've been clean longer now than I was using.
8:58
Sure.
8:59
And it's just like, yeah, almost double the time I was using.
9:02
It's just like, man.
9:03
And I grew up with a brother who's an addict, still an addict. He.
9:07
We're still an active addiction, I should say.
9:09
He's,
9:10
you know, I love him to death, but he's he's addicted
9:13
to meth and lives on the streets and Michigan and,
9:17
so it's really hard, you know, because, you know, you know what works?
9:22
But you got to want it, right?
9:23
I mean, you got to want want to be clean.
9:25
You got to want to be free.
9:26
And he's never gotten to that point.
9:28
So I grew up around it. Hated it. Yeah.
9:31
Didn't like addiction. Didn't understand it at all.
9:33
I was like, dude.
9:34
And it was funny because when I was a teenager, I'd be like, why would you choose,
9:40
a high over a healthy relationship with your family?
9:43
Oh, didn't understand it.
9:44
And then it happened to me. Yeah.
9:46
And I was like, okay, it's not really.
9:48
And I remember I struggle with the choice thing, right?
9:50
Because I was, I believe there was a guy named, what was his name?
9:53
He play guitar?
9:56
He was a counselor here.
9:57
Oh, yeah.
9:58
Jack. Jack? Jack. Yes. Yeah. Love, Jack.
10:02
Is that that joke?
10:03
Yeah, it's just Jack. Watch. Yeah, I hope so.
10:05
He is now.
10:06
Oh, dude, if you watch this one, I got a good Jack story, all right?
10:09
Yeah.
10:09
So, anyway, he was like, it's not a choice, you know?
10:12
And I raised my hands like, dude, come on. Like, it's a choice.
10:14
Like everything's a choice right now. All right.
10:16
And then he went, oh, then why can you choose to quit when you wanted to quit?
10:21
I was like, oh, I get it, I got it.
10:24
You know? I was like, okay, I played the Joker on. Yeah, yeah.
10:27
But the my favorite Jack story is, we were having a
10:29
do they still play Moving on for the, Do you remember this?
10:32
It's a it's a sore subject, but the sing outs are no more.
10:37
How long has that been going?
10:38
Oh. Or has it been.
10:40
I want to say that transition happened in 2020,
10:43
along with a lot of other things to Covid ruined everything.
10:46
Anyway, so we're doing a sing out, right.
10:48
But I have been a part of many.
10:50
Oh do they're the best. I know all the moves and everything.
10:52
Well, I was wearing these track pants, which I love, track pants.
10:55
I'm wearing gym clothes right now.
10:57
I'm wearing track pants.
10:57
So guys graduating and I pulled my pants down.
11:00
Oh, yeah, and then I.
11:02
I can't believe what I'm saying is, if any of my Christian music friends
11:05
are watching, I'm sorry, but I didn't put it just my pants. Not.
11:09
Yeah, everything, but.
11:10
So I pull my pants to home and I'm dancing.
11:13
You know, just being an idiot, acting out.
11:15
What a moron.
11:15
Right? Well, we get done.
11:18
Nothing's really said.
11:19
We get done.
11:20
A couple hours later, I get it over the intercom.
11:22
Joseph H, please go to the,
11:26
What?
11:26
What they call the main room or whatever.
11:27
Yeah. And, I was like, that's weird.
11:30
So I go, that's all about Jack just sitting there in a chair like this
11:35
and, basically on the carpet, basically.
11:38
Yeah. I mean, basically I was like, dude, what are you doing?
11:40
Like what?
11:41
What is happening? Yeah.
11:42
So I didn't do that again.
11:43
But yeah, I was I guess I was a little bit of a troublemaker.
11:47
Well, it's funny you mention it
11:48
because something very similar is the reason we don't have them anymore.
11:51
Are you serious?
11:52
So a lot I mean, a lot of people have gotten away
11:54
away with it over the years, you know, there's
11:55
there's always been a maybe I started a special move.
11:58
Maybe. Yeah.
11:59
Maybe everything happens in patterns though, you know, that was
12:02
that was kind of one of the most beautiful things about being a CA here
12:06
is you get to see the ever evolving shifts that happen
12:08
between groups as they transition, but there's always
12:13
there's archetypes and everything, you know what I mean?
12:15
And you're that guy. It's cool.
12:16
Whatever happened to Ken? You remember Ken? Ken?
12:19
Ken Harris, big guy? Yeah, yeah. He used to run around the golf.
12:21
He rode around on the golf and the golf cart.
12:23
Yeah, he smoked cigarets. And he told you not to.
12:25
Yeah, yeah. Ken was a great guy.
12:27
I got to work with Ken open all the way up until he moved to.
12:31
He transitioned to Stillwater for men because he lived.
12:33
That's right.
12:33
I, I forgot about that. Yeah. He for he retired.
12:36
So is he retired now?
12:38
Do I need to look him up? Yeah.
12:39
He's he's a guy.
12:40
He's in recovery. He had a lot of truth. Yeah.
12:43
I wonder if he ever. I need to just like go.
12:44
You had a lot of extra truth, man.
12:46
He was handing it out. Let me tell you something. Family week.
12:49
My wife comes in here.
12:51
Been married three years.
12:53
She was having a hard time, like, she.
12:55
She, she was thinking about leaving, right?
12:57
Like most wives. And,
12:59
so, you know, you get to family week, and family
13:02
week, to me, is kind of like, they still have that.
13:05
Oh, so.
13:06
So to me, it's kind of like the counselor
13:09
trying to convince the family member that these are not bad people, right?
13:13
They're just sick. Definitely. And well, she didn't want to hear that.
13:15
And a lot of people don't want to hear that.
13:16
They're like, yeah, but yeah, but he's a liar.
13:18
Yeah, but he's a he's a con artist. He's.
13:21
And I was
13:22
so she's sitting out outside of the dining hall and she's emotional
13:26
and I don't know if she was crying, but she was thinking about leaving.
13:29
And Ken sat
13:30
down next to her and handed her an ice cream cone
13:34
and said, I've been doing this a long time.
13:37
He said, and I can usually tell
13:41
who's going to make it and it's not going to make.
13:43
And I think he's going to make it if you just hang on.
13:46
And I don't know, looking back, you know, first of all, how did he know that?
13:51
Second of all,
13:54
how often did he do that? Right.
13:55
Because it's got it feels like something that doesn't happen now.
13:59
He was moved and she, she she hung around and I
14:03
we just told that story last week to my mom, like,
14:06
we were at the Neenah Chili's
14:08
and I was singing up in Kentucky, and my mom came and and, yeah.
14:12
And she just was like,
14:14
she hung around just because of kin, man.
14:16
I mean, he saved my marriage. I think in that moment.
14:19
And so used to man, how so many of them,
14:22
just so many of those moments just come down to just an instant of like,
14:25
yeah, you know, just a life worth living can come from just a moment of listening.
14:30
And I didn't know people were talking, you know, like, I didn't know can said that.
14:35
Sure, I didn't know.
14:36
I, I do remember asking.
14:38
We were in a,
14:40
I don't know if it was like a
14:42
what do they call it when everybody gets together up for dinner
14:46
or do they still do that, like or just roll call?
14:48
It was something everybody was in the in the the room.
14:51
That's right by the chapel.
14:53
Okay.
14:53
So the big room it was, it was probably there was a name for it,
14:59
but it wasn't a sing out.
15:01
No. It was like a not assembly.
15:02
What was that called anyway?
15:05
We're all in the room.
15:07
And I asked how many of us statistically are going to make it stay clean.
15:11
And, I think they said 10% or something like that.
15:15
But at the time and I said, I raised my hand again.
15:19
I said, so what do we have to do to make sure we're the 10%?
15:23
Because I really wanted to like.
15:24
And I was like a contest to me, like, I'm, I'm, I want to do this.
15:27
Is this before or after family? Do this before.
15:30
Okay.
15:30
And, they said all you got to do is if you'll listen to what we're telling you.
15:35
It was pretty simple.
15:36
And I was like, okay, I can do that.
15:37
So literally everything they told me, right?
15:39
They was like, get it, get a sponsor. Okay.
15:43
Go to outpatient after invasion.
15:45
Okay. Go to 90 to 90. Okay.
15:48
And just kept doing it and, and now, you know, 12 years later,
15:52
getting to sponsor other people
15:54
and still going in the rooms and feeling like, you know,
15:58
feeling like you belong in a weird way, like it's like,
16:02
I certainly don't feel like, you know, an elder statesman or anything like that.
16:07
I still feel like I'm
16:10
not really at the beginning, but just feel like I'm.
16:12
I'm one of them, you know, whereas at the beginning you're kind of like,
16:17
do I belong here?
16:17
Like, I didn't do heroin, right?
16:19
Like I'm good.
16:21
And but yeah, I was doing synthetic heroin.
16:23
I was taking three painkillers at a time, walking
16:26
on a church stage and singing about Jesus while I'm high as a kite.
16:30
Mean. Come on.
16:31
So I was pretty bad off.
16:32
And, just having that again, going back to that sense of community
16:36
and how God use this place in my life and God use the rooms and and it's funny,
16:42
I don't know if you know this, but a lot of Christian people,
16:45
I don't know if they're
16:45
anti-gay, but they're certainly not pro-gay
16:49
because they don't like the higher power thing.
16:50
They want you to say it's Jesus, right?
16:52
They want to say, yeah.
16:54
And, and I was like, I just didn't get hung up on that.
16:57
Sure. I remember we had a guy here.
16:59
I was in treatment with,
17:01
I won't say his name, but he, Well, you I wouldn't know him.
17:04
But anyway, he was an atheist, right?
17:06
He didn't believe in God, so he.
17:09
His higher power was pineapple man in the sky.
17:12
True story. Sure. And that was his higher power.
17:15
And I can see him now with the sunglasses and.
17:17
Yeah, pong goes to the sky.
17:19
Yeah. The sunglasses.
17:21
Now I'm picturing him. Yeah.
17:24
And it was just like in it in the end, at the time, I'm like,
17:27
this is weird, but it's not my place to go.
17:30
Hey, man, she really look into this Jesus guy.
17:33
Sure.
17:34
You know, it's this religion thing not the right time for no.
17:37
I mean, because he was already searching.
17:39
Sometimes you got to find God after you get clean.
17:42
Because if you're not in your right mind anyway,
17:45
you're not looking for higher power.
17:47
You're looking for a high.
17:48
Well, an especially one that might have an identity still sourced.
17:52
And shame, sure.
17:54
And otherness.
17:55
Right. Exactly. And you're not good enough.
17:58
And so I think that's what I experienced, too, especially getting clean in South
18:01
Alabama was a lot of the meetings that I went to.
18:04
You had two kinds of people, people
18:06
running from the people that were trying to tell them how to believe,
18:09
and people who are looking for people to tell them.
18:12
And, you know, I think that's true of a lot of the Bible Belt states
18:15
in the, in the program, you know, when you go to a 12 step meeting,
18:18
there's a dichotomy because there's there's a lot of,
18:22
evangelists.
18:23
Right? And there's nothing wrong with that.
18:25
But but when it
18:25
when it comes to helping the newcomer, there has to be an even playing field.
18:29
Yeah. Where you start from and, and it's rarely that.
18:32
You know what I mean.
18:32
That's going to make the difference.
18:33
Well, I think evangelist is an interesting word to I think that's dead on.
18:38
Yeah.
18:38
You know because you're on a mission slide, you know, to save people.
18:42
And there is this thing, especially being raised in church,
18:45
you know, you're raised with this God who's a judge, essentially, he's a,
18:51
he's a judge.
18:51
And so I remember my sponsor came out, which is this is rare.
18:56
This is not probably is not supposed to happen,
18:59
but my sponsor comes out while I'm here.
19:02
I didn't always going to be a sponsor yet, but he was in the field.
19:05
Oh, so this is just an industry cohort kind of person.
19:07
And he occurred.
19:08
There was a kid I think it was either.
19:11
No, it was Walt.
19:12
Walt Quinn.
19:13
Okay.
19:13
Called him was like, hey, you got this guy here, you're Christian music artist
19:17
and he's in treatment and he's here.
19:19
He sure could call in a favor, couldn't he?
19:21
Oh, yeah.
19:22
Well, it's the master. He's the man.
19:24
He's with his little hats and
19:27
facial.
19:27
What is it? What's he got? A mustache.
19:29
It's a mustache. Yeah, it's definitely a mustache.
19:31
It's strong. Bro, I would I don't know if that's the whole word.
19:33
It is strong. It's more to it. Yeah. Stache.
19:36
I think it's just a swag stance to ask him.
19:38
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he invented it.
19:40
So my sponsor shows up.
19:42
I didn't know he's going to be my sponsor, but,
19:44
Walt comes up, says, hey, there's somebody in there,
19:47
lunch, somebody.
19:48
And it wasn't visiting day, right? So I'm breaking the rules.
19:50
I'm kind of breaking the rules. Wasn't Sunday.
19:53
Sure, they still do visitation on Sundays.
19:55
I still think it got altered. I'll say that.
19:58
Bummer, man.
19:59
Yeah. Anyway, this place is great.
20:01
Promise.
20:03
It's not what you remember, but, yeah, we we
20:05
we did as little changing as possible to keep it safe during Covid.
20:09
Yeah. And then a lot of things just kind of subtly changed.
20:12
And then they were like, hey, this works better.
20:13
Let's just keep this intact. Yeah.
20:15
Sometimes you don't realize something's better until you have to move.
20:18
That's true.
20:19
So anyway, my sponsor comes or a guy comes in.
20:22
So I go have lunch with him and he says, what do you got going on after this?
20:25
And I had, like a meeting or whatever class, and I said,
20:28
I said I got like 15, 20 minutes.
20:30
So we went outside of our dorm.
20:33
I sat on these benches.
20:34
I don't know if they're still there, but.
20:36
And he said, never forget this.
20:39
He said, God loved you when you were using drugs.
20:43
He said, but he's crazy about you now.
20:46
That was all I needed to hear.
20:48
That was like a different God to me.
20:49
Like, he's crazy about me. Like what?
20:52
And, that's either down here.
20:55
Up here? Yeah. Up here. Was there yet?
20:57
I he was either ashamed of me or I was his favorite child.
21:01
Right.
21:01
And, And I felt so much
21:04
shame, especially being a Christian.
21:08
Being an addict like that just doesn't.
21:10
You don't do that, right?
21:11
You know, it's supposed to mean a lot of Christians don't even drink.
21:14
You know, some do socially, but,
21:17
but when I when he said that, it changed my whole view of God, it's like, oh,
21:22
so he's not mad at me.
21:24
He just wants me to be, well, you know,
21:27
and, so, yeah, I think anybody that feels like
21:32
God or Jesus is,
21:34
is a judge.
21:35
Well, yeah, sometimes.
21:38
But at the end of the day,
21:41
you know, in Christianity, we say he's a father.
21:44
So there's nothing I can do to make my dad not be my dad and love me.
21:49
Right.
21:49
And, one of my favorite stories about my dad was I, I was I was sitting in Madoc.
21:53
He was the last person I called
21:55
to tell him I was checking in because I was, you know, what's your dad?
21:58
How's the one voice you didn't want to hear at the time?
22:00
Yeah, and I didn't know what to expect.
22:01
You know, I knew he didn't know
22:03
that I was struggling and he didn't know I was an addict.
22:06
My brother had always been the addict.
22:07
And so I was sitting in medical, in the waiting room, and.
22:11
Right. And my evaluation and,
22:13
calling him was like, hey, dad, I'm checking into treatment.
22:15
And all he said was, I'm proud of you.
22:18
I was it.
22:19
And I was like, dang, like, that's of all.
22:23
And now when he comes out, you know, when I'm on tour and,
22:27
he comes out to the shows,
22:30
I always tell that story, you know, because I'll never forget
22:33
of all the times my dad disciplined me.
22:35
Or I got in trouble when I was young, scared of my dad when I was a kid.
22:38
And I think most, most kids are scared of their dad when their kid is.
22:43
You don't want him to lose that that fuze.
22:44
And when he does, that fuze is not good.
22:47
But when he told me he was proud of me for going to rehab.
22:50
Like what?
22:51
That rocked my world.
22:53
And again, a great picture of God, right?
22:55
Yeah. So yeah. Love, love that.
22:58
It's a lot of great memories here.
23:00
It sounds like a really distinct memory.
23:02
Have you written a song about that?
23:04
About my dad?
23:05
About that moment?
23:06
No, but that's a time. It's a great idea.
23:09
It sounds like you got plenty to go on.
23:11
Have you heard the basement? Oh, yeah. You have.
23:13
I heard the basement way before I ever knew you were in alarm.
23:16
Are you serious? Oh, yeah.
23:17
Yeah, I had I want to say not long. When did it come out?
23:22
I was on my ten year sobriety, so I
23:25
was two years ago. So two and a half years.
23:27
When that came out, I had at least 4 or 5 people send me the link to listen to it.
23:32
That's crazy.
23:33
And I'm not like a Christian either.
23:35
Like, I like, that's not like my idea or anything like that.
23:38
So it's not like
23:38
people were like, oh, there's a here's a great Christian song for you.
23:42
It's a recovery song. Yeah.
23:43
But it was it,
23:45
I mean, and I posted it on the alumni group and everything because it was I'm
23:48
are you serious as a solid two
23:49
and I didn't know, you know, I didn't know that crazy.
23:52
But yeah, incredibly well-written and like,
23:57
you don't hear a whole lot of
24:00
and you shared a little bit already, but, you know, typically there's this or that.
24:05
Right?
24:05
It's either, it's either there's this world
24:08
and it's distinct and it's separate and it's the only thing you need,
24:11
or there's this world and it's distinct and separate, and, you know, you don't
24:13
you don't really, like, get to appreciate that
24:15
intermingling in my home group meets in a church.
24:18
You know what I mean? No kidding.
24:19
And so I've been
24:20
and I've spent a ton of time in church basements, you know what I mean?
24:24
I remember it was not a well, it wasn't.
24:27
So what I do as a writer, I write all my songs,
24:30
but I'll usually write down an idea my phone, my notes.
24:33
Okay, so I'm sitting in a room on Music Row.
24:35
It's at the Kirk building.
24:37
It's word curb.
24:39
And, Michael Farren, one of the writers, and Tony would.
24:42
And it was like this weird moment where I was like, I see a basement.
24:45
And they're like, what?
24:47
Like, that's weird. Way to start a session.
24:49
I see.
24:50
I was like, I keep seeing these, this basement.
24:52
It's like I kept thinking about
24:53
these meetings, or I grew up upstairs in the church,
24:56
but I had no idea what was going on downstairs.
24:58
Yeah, I didn't know that.
24:59
Hey, in a car, met in a church.
25:02
I don't know if it meets in a church, but the rest of them do.
25:05
I don't.
25:05
Maybe they do.
25:06
Most likely at some.
25:07
Maybe not in Nashville, but I'm sure somewhere.
25:10
But yeah, I started thinking about these basements
25:12
and started drawing the parallel between we know what's going on upstairs
25:17
as church people, but we have no idea what God's doing downstairs.
25:21
So much in the basement. Yeah, so I didn't.
25:23
I remember the night it released.
25:25
I was terrified because my buddy,
25:29
my best friend who's in the music business, said the song,
25:33
and he was like, yeah, man, he's I don't really get it.
25:36
Like, what's going on the bass, I don't understand.
25:37
Oh no, he's not in recovery.
25:39
So I thought, oh crap, people aren't going to get it.
25:42
It's isolation. Yeah. And it just took off.
25:45
Yeah. I remember the first night I sang.
25:46
It was the day after released.
25:48
It was in Gatlinburg at the convention center.
25:50
I was, I don't know if there was 7 or 8000 people
25:54
and I got done.
25:56
It's not a big song. It's not about a big ending.
25:58
Right.
25:59
And the whole place stood up just.
26:00
And I was like, they get it? Yeah.
26:03
And when they got it, it was like, oh, this is this is special.
26:07
Yeah, this is special. I think it's so cool that you.
26:10
I didn't know you knew the song. That's crazy.
26:12
Yeah, yeah.
26:13
When, when when we originally started the conversation with your with your team,
26:17
I was like, oh yeah. That's the basement guys. Awesome.
26:19
That's the basement. Good.
26:20
But I mean, you know, and realistically two I think,
26:25
like what you said makes sense industry wise, right.
26:28
Like, oh, this is kind of a shot in the dark as a single because,
26:32
you know, a lot of people don't get it.
26:33
But I think, you know, what is it like with with every human being, there's
26:37
no more than seven points of separation where you can connect the dots.
26:41
I think it
26:41
when it when it comes to recovery, especially now
26:44
at least, we're blessed to know that like, there can't be more than two.
26:47
Yeah.
26:47
If you don't have somebody, if you're not that person
26:50
and you don't have somebody that's immediately related to you.
26:54
And then there's at least one more layer and you're going to find somebody you love
26:58
that's in this process or, you know, entering this process
27:01
or one thing I say from stage every night, I actually do it right before I sing
27:05
The basement is I say, I'm not naive enough to believe
27:09
that everybody in this room walk through addiction or alcoholism.
27:12
But what I do believe is that everybody in here love somebody who has.
27:16
Yeah, or is 100%.
27:18
And, and I've never had one person come up to me and go, yeah,
27:22
I don't really know anybody that's going through that.
27:24
Yeah.
27:24
It's just it's everybody knows love somebody who's in.
27:28
Sometimes it's a son and a brother and,
27:31
sometimes it's a sister, sometimes it's a wife, sometimes it's a.
27:34
I remember one night I was telling, I was talking about,
27:37
you know, the crowds, kids and grandkids in there
27:40
and I had a little girl, teenage girl come up to me.
27:43
She goes, you should include parents in that.
27:46
She had a parents that were going through walking through active addiction.
27:48
And, I was like, man, that's it.
27:52
I had a lady come up in Georgia said, I'm 73 years old.
27:56
She said, I've been clean three years and three months.
27:58
She said, I got free after coming to one of your shows
28:01
and you're your story and that kind of stuff.
28:04
You know, I've worked that 12 step.
28:05
That 12th step for me is like
28:08
getting up every night and sharing my story.
28:10
You know, I think it helps me stay clean because I was getting
28:14
a lot of my, a lot of my drugs, which is crazy.
28:17
I was getting from fans at shows, concerts because all these old people have these,
28:22
you know, these which I don't think just old people,
28:24
but somebody always has something in their purse. Sure.
28:27
And I was good at dolling down like, somebody's on a walker.
28:29
I'm like, yeah, I'm about to hit them up
28:31
or somebody got a like a cast and I'm like, yeah, I'm about that.
28:33
Oh, okay. Well you got for that.
28:36
And now that everybody knows, I told my wife when I was like,
28:39
ain't nobody's ever going to give me a pain feel again.
28:42
Yeah. Know it just raises that account kind of.
28:44
Yeah.
28:45
The more you tell you tell your story, the more you
28:47
solidify yourself on the right side of it like that.
28:51
So, you know, I work with so many people.
28:53
Post-Discharge.
28:55
And there's a, there's a perception of recovery when,
28:58
when folks are here, even if they've had some time
29:00
in the program before they come back to treatment.
29:04
But then there's
29:04
this like responsibility that we have when we leave.
29:07
That's like, I have to I can't adopt this thing.
29:11
You know what?
29:12
Wherever it's 12 step or celebrate recovery or both or,
29:15
you know, whatever into my life and expect it to work.
29:18
I have to take my life and truly integrate it completely.
29:21
And look at look at how I'm perceived and look how how I'm treating the world
29:25
through that lens. Yes, that's a great point.
29:27
I think one of the things I've struggled with, honestly, is anonymity.
29:31
That 12th tradition, because I,
29:35
you know, I just tell I tell thousands of people
29:38
every week, basically that I'm in the rooms
29:41
and I don't sell out anybody else necessarily. But,
29:45
I think anonymity can be maybe a little misunderstood by the masses, though.
29:49
Yeah.
29:50
You know, I think I don't know that it's I don't know that it's specifically
29:53
supposed to be, you know, what we say here
29:56
stays here as much as when I, when I project myself
30:00
out into the community, do I do it in a way
30:02
that emulates the lifestyle that we're that we're teaching here?
30:05
That's like, if I can't do that, then should I take that risk?
30:09
Right? Yeah.
30:09
And so like you said, it's an accountability structure for yourself.
30:12
Yeah.
30:13
I think the other part of that is too is like,
30:15
no matter where I'm at, no matter who I'm facing, am I treating
30:18
that person with like that, that beginner's mind right.
30:21
And not to get to like into the, the scripture or anything like that.
30:25
But since we're talking with someone who's whose life is based and there's probably
30:29
a lot of your viewership,
30:30
one of my favorite stories from the Bible was, and I'm going to misquote it,
30:34
and I don't even remember what book it's in, but, you know, it's been a while.
30:38
I'll tell you. No, I'm kidding.
30:39
Yeah I don't yeah.
30:40
Somebody well, I'm it's you're listening to me.
30:43
Yeah.
30:45
But Jesus was at this party,
30:47
and he was having this conversation with this guy, and a kid walks up
30:50
and, and he says, you know, hold on, let me talk to this kid.
30:53
And he leans down and the kid had some kid question.
30:56
You know what I mean? To ask him.
30:59
And he answers, and he comes back to the conversation.
31:01
Well, in those days, it was very disrespectful thing to do to,
31:04
you know, appear, you know, to overlook them for a child.
31:08
And that's that's where he has the conversation about the kingdom of heaven.
31:11
And he said only those with the child, like a child with a mind like a child.
31:14
Yeah, can make it.
31:15
It will only those will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
31:18
Exactly.
31:19
And so, like what I've always taken from that was the kingdom of heaven
31:24
is that place of of true oneness.
31:27
You know what I mean? Purpose.
31:29
And the biggest difference between, you know, someone who needs to know
31:34
something and a child is the child knows that it doesn't know.
31:38
Wow. Right. Like the child knows that it doesn't know.
31:40
And I think that's where anonymity is supposed to be. Like, I need to grow.
31:43
I don't know, because otherwise I'll approach people with pride.
31:46
I'll approach people with jealousy, with envy, with fear, with anger. Wow.
31:51
That's great.
31:52
And all that will shut away what they have to offer me.
31:55
You know, I love that, whether that's me sharing in a meeting
31:59
or, you know, that opportunity you had to talk to that
32:01
little girl who showed you something you really needed to see.
32:04
Yeah, that no one else could have taught you.
32:06
Yeah. What about parents?
32:08
So, speaking of anonymity, how do you deal with this?
32:11
I'm assuming from time to time, somebody will check in.
32:16
That is a pretty big name. Sure.
32:21
Is that something
32:22
in maybe you can't say on the podcast, but
32:25
is that something that you go home
32:27
and you don't you don't even share with your wife?
32:29
Or is it like, man, you won't believe you checked into so I don't okay, good.
32:34
Good deal.
32:35
Mainly because my wife was like, take it and run with it.
32:37
Not like she would share with her people or my wife recovery too.
32:40
So she understanding some of it.
32:42
Yeah, I gotcha.
32:43
Well, you know why you wouldn't bring where you wouldn't bring it up?
32:45
Because there still is a lot of stigma attached to
32:47
what goes on in the recovery world.
32:49
You know, unfortunately.
32:51
And, you know, I think Cumberland Heights has a really good job of doing that.
32:54
You know, I think the the main, the most important thing is
32:58
and it sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't,
33:01
but is given that person the opportunity to be a person.
33:04
Right.
33:05
Because rarely rarely does really does.
33:07
You know, an artist's look,
33:10
look like they look on stage when they're here.
33:13
You know, they're, you know, sure. They're wearing a hat.
33:15
They got a t shirt on.
33:16
You don't show up here when you're on a winning streak. Right?
33:18
Right. Yeah.
33:19
Maybe they let their scruff grow out a little bit,
33:21
so they at least have a chance to not be recognized immediately,
33:24
I'm sure as this year and primary group and you know, in their in their house,
33:28
you know, stuff comes out.
33:28
And if you're still looking for that hit from people wanting to be around
33:32
you, you're going to tell them who you are
33:33
and how many Grammys you have and that kind of thing.
33:35
But I have zero, by the way.
33:37
What I've lost twice.
33:39
In case you're wondering, if you're a voter.
33:41
I don't like showing up though. Right.
33:43
And then, like being invited to the party.
33:45
Yeah.
33:46
That's my biggest claim to fame, is like, what? You.
33:48
What are you known for?
33:49
I lost two Grammys, so good times.
33:52
Not only one, but two.
33:53
Speaking of Grammys, this is cool.
33:55
So when I got here, I didn't have any money, right?
33:58
And I lost my job
33:59
because I was singing with a group and, lost my job because of my addiction.
34:03
Rightfully so. I didn't have any money.
34:06
And music cares, right?
34:08
Grammys comes in, pays whatever it was.
34:11
fast forward, I get out, start doing recovery, doing the thing, get a record deal
34:18
and, how many years later was
34:21
it one, two, three, 3 or 4 years later, I get nominated for my first Grammy. Wow.
34:25
And it was like this moment of full circle.
34:28
Like, if you just told me this four years ago
34:29
when the Grammys, MusiCares is paying for me to go to treatment, right?
34:32
I'm never going to be like, I'm very I'm.
34:34
But I'm never going to sing again
34:35
because I'm in the Christian music field like you don't.
34:37
They don't have addicts up there.
34:39
Our colleagues on stage.
34:40
Well, they do, but they're not talking about it.
34:42
Right. And, yeah.
34:44
And it was just this cool, this cool moment.
34:47
And that was the only reason.
34:48
One of the only reasons I wanted to win was because I wanted to get up and say,
34:53
this is what the Grammys did for me.
34:55
Oh, you know, when I was at my lowest.
34:58
And have you had an opportunity to do that in other, other ways?
35:01
Aside, aside from now?
35:02
I mean, yeah, I talk about it from time to time.
35:06
I've never been asked by MusiCares to do any sort of thing
35:11
because they have a lot bigger artists that, you know, typically,
35:15
I think one year it was like it wasn't Bono, but it was somebody like massive.
35:18
I was like that, I'll never be involved in MusiCares.
35:21
But, yeah, I mean, but I would I mean, if they called,
35:24
I mean, I would do anything for them, you know,
35:28
because of what they say, my life, you know, there's so many different people
35:32
that saved my life.
35:33
My wife, MusiCares cover the rights, my sponsor, my
35:36
all, every counselor, David Savant and King Jack.
35:39
I mean, you name it.
35:40
I mean, it was just there were so many people that helped save my life.
35:43
It's interesting. Who sticks out to you,
35:46
I think, to like.
35:48
And, you know, not to not too hard, too long on MusiCares.
35:51
But, you know,
35:52
I've been able to see kind of the miracle that they create for people.
35:55
And even with these organizations that are set up to help people with Christ
36:00
who are experiencing mental health crisis, there's still barriers
36:05
that kind of present themselves and make it harder and create,
36:09
you know, delays and, you know, whatever, whatever happens.
36:12
But music cares, man. They're they're on it.
36:15
I called them I left here halfway through asking
36:18
the Ubers in the I call them went to a movie with my wife.
36:22
Now, you see me won't forget.
36:24
Now you see me with them in the movies.
36:26
The first one is about the the magicians that travel around, do shows and,
36:32
I forget the lady's name, but I told them I needed help.
36:35
And I was a musician, Christian music artist, and
36:39
I think it was that night that they approved it.
36:42
Yeah, just like boom.
36:43
And I was in, a day or two later. Yeah.
36:46
Basically enough time for me to go home and pack, get my stuff together
36:50
and get here. And it's because they know.
36:52
Yeah, they know how hard, how hard it is to maintain
36:55
once that decision has been made, you know? Yeah.
36:57
Because you change your mind so quick.
36:59
Yeah.
36:59
I mean, there was nobody forced me to go to rehab.
37:02
I mean, everybody was kind of like because in the Christian world,
37:06
you know, it's like, well, if you go to church
37:08
and read your Bible and stuff, you should be good.
37:11
So there was that element.
37:12
Nobody really set it that way.
37:13
But it was kind of like, man, if you just get serious about your
37:17
your relationship with God, you should be good.
37:20
Sure.
37:21
But I remember asking my,
37:23
my stepdad, who was a preacher, I was like, what do you think I should do?
37:27
He's a great man.
37:28
And he said, and he said, what's your wife want you to do?
37:31
What's Lindsay want you to do?
37:32
And I said, I think, I think she wants to be good at treatment.
37:35
He's like, I probably do that.
37:36
And it wasn't like, right.
37:39
It wasn't like, what was God? It was like, what is it?
37:41
Because Lindsay's, you know, my wife, she's not.
37:43
She's a normie. Like, she's not in recovery.
37:47
She's in recovery from me.
37:48
But, that she's very wise.
37:51
And I think she was pro, you know, me getting help, and I, we celebrated our,
37:57
I guess, our fourth, third anniversary.
38:01
Okay, well, I was in treatment, okay?
38:02
And I memorized I remember I memorized my credit card number,
38:06
so I was I would send her flowers over the phone.
38:09
I got to call this flower show.
38:10
And she was like, how'd you do that?
38:11
And that was one of the best things I did. And,
38:15
but yeah, all the so many memories, it's great memories.
38:19
And there were some tough ones, you know, there were some moments where,
38:22
you know, I,
38:24
I remember my mom came to family week, and she was.
38:26
She's very religious.
38:28
And it was hard for her to wrap her mind around the disease aspect of it.
38:32
And, because, you know, everybody in Christian music
38:35
or the Christianity kind of feels like it's a moral
38:39
shortcoming.
38:40
Sure.
38:40
You know, and, it's hard to convince somebody of something
38:43
when they're pretty sure they know what it is. Yeah.
38:45
And, but mom's come a long way, and, she loves the basement.
38:50
You know, she loves the song.
38:51
She believes in the room.
38:53
She's actually encouraging a brother now who's walking through active addiction.
38:57
Has been for 20 years or so to get help and go to treatment.
39:02
And every time he asks her for money, it's the same thing.
39:04
You know, you don't need money, you need treatment.
39:06
And so that's that's a big deal.
39:08
Yeah.
39:08
And, and I'm really proud of her, you know, for her kind of evolution.
39:13
Yeah.
39:14
And, and this, this this podcast is not in any way
39:18
to discount spirituality or religion.
39:21
You know, I always tell people I don't really care for religion, I, I,
39:26
I, I love Jesus, I love who God is and what he's done in my life,
39:31
how he's saved my life.
39:32
But religion is a different thing.
39:34
Religion is man made rules and regulations and.
39:37
Yeah. And I'm just not interested in that.
39:40
I, I'm more interested in the
39:42
spiritual element of it, and, so, yeah, that's,
39:46
the praise and worship was always my favorite part of church anyway, you know.
39:50
Yeah, it was more real, you know, it felt, you know, I felt it.
39:53
I heard I grew up that
39:54
I didn't feel the other parts, but I grew up being taught that preaching
39:58
was the most important part of the service.
40:01
Recently, I saw a guy and I never really bought into that as a musician.
40:06
I think preaching it.
40:08
I mean, it's unbelievable, right?
40:09
It's great not discounting it, but I heard a guy on TikTok
40:13
that got up and said, worship is the most important part,
40:17
because when you're listening to a sermon, you're not actively worshiping, right?
40:21
You're listening, you're learning, and there's nothing that's great valuable.
40:25
So what Jesus did, he was a preacher.
40:27
But when you're worshiping God like that.
40:31
Yeah, that that's different. That's special. Yeah.
40:34
And so that that really that he says it a lot more articulate than that.
40:38
If you want to look it up, I think it says,
40:40
don't cut worship short or something like that.
40:43
It's the name. Yeah.
40:44
And it's great.
40:44
I mean, it's just he he's kind of like a, he's a white guy,
40:47
but he preaches like he's a black preacher.
40:49
Like he's just gets after it, man. Which I love.
40:52
You know, I love one of my favorite churches,
40:55
in America is Brooklyn Tabernacle because it's every creed and color and tongue and
40:59
and they're just I feel like it's
41:00
what heaven's going to look like, you know, it's just I love that.
41:03
But yeah, it's interesting you say that that worship is was your favorite part.
41:08
Well, I mean, that's what always resonated with me the most.
41:11
You know, my grandfather was the
41:13
he taught the I grew up in, like, little bitty Southern Baptist church.
41:16
You know, it was like me and like 40 old people kind of deal, you know?
41:20
And so that was great.
41:22
That's pretty much how it is now.
41:23
It's a lot of ways you just without me most southern, Southern Baptist church.
41:28
Yeah. Yeah.
41:29
But my grandfather was the he was the adult Sunday school teacher.
41:31
And then he led the praise and worship.
41:34
And so I can remember having my read My Little Red, you know, hymn book.
41:38
And I knew all the, all my favorite songs by, by, you know, page number.
41:41
And I'd be calling out, you know, for 67, like, let's go.
41:44
What was your favorite hymn?
41:46
Probably how great between like How Great Thou Art and I'll Fly Away.
41:50
I was gonna say I'll Fly Away. Feels like a kid that.
41:52
Oh, yeah, cuz I didn't intend to.
41:54
Yeah, I didn't like hearing Alison Krauss sing it like it would me into bluegrass.
41:59
And I started listening to bluegrass right away as soon as I found adulthood.
42:03
And after I got you know, clean and wanted to do something different
42:06
and was like looking into music, bluegrass, she's she's unbelievable.
42:10
I got to see her. I,
42:13
I went and
42:13
visited my brother in Idaho recently and we went and saw her, you know.
42:16
Idaho. Yeah. And it's funny that she.
42:19
Yeah. She lives here.
42:20
Oh, she went to see her in Idaho.
42:21
Well, we were in Idaho, and she just happened to be playing.
42:24
I wanted to go to a show with them.
42:26
That's cool. And so, Alison.
42:28
Yeah. She'll be here again soon.
42:29
So she's, like, the most pure vocal I think I've ever heard.
42:34
Yeah.
42:35
She's unbelievable. Yeah. Just incredible.
42:37
As good as it gets.
42:38
Oh my God.
42:39
She's she's talking with Steve Earle.
42:41
He's a friend, you know.
42:42
Oh yeah.
42:43
Of the of Cumberland Heights in a in a big way.
42:46
That's amazing.
42:46
Right now I didn't I didn't know he's up there. Yeah.
42:49
I mean, she needs dobro player, so are you related to John Hiatt
42:52
I'm not. I'm a “Y”
42:53
I'm H-Y so I get that question a lot.
42:55
He's H-I. That's right.
42:56
Yeah, yeah, but my wife and I are good friends with one of his daughters,
43:00
I remember one time I was sitting at home
43:03
and somebody's from here, and I'm not gonna say who,
43:05
but somebody from here called and said, hey, there's a really interesting musician
43:09
coming to the music.
43:12
It's it called the music Meeting or what is it?
43:14
What happens in the music room?
43:15
We just call it aftercare, I think.
43:17
Yeah, music, music, aftercare.
43:18
So he said, some of these come in and I think you'll want to meet him.
43:20
So I got my car and drove over and it was somebody really I would have never met.
43:25
Yeah, in my life, probably. Right.
43:27
And, didn't really wanted to get his phone number.
43:30
I really wanted to be like, hey, man, you need a sponsor or anything, or,
43:35
you just want to talk or, you know, clap, but you never would have been there.
43:38
But yeah, I was like, it was.
43:39
It was all, you know, selfish.
43:41
And so I just shook his hand and, but it was just like, what a gift, right?
43:46
You know. Yeah.
43:47
And the humanity of it, the guy was just so.
43:53
He wasn't on stage.
43:55
He wasn't performing.
43:56
He wasn't on. He's completely off. Actually.
43:59
He was quiet, withdrawn and right.
44:02
It was like, tired. Probably.
44:03
Probably tired. There was probably an element.
44:06
He was with his sponsor, probably didn't want to be here.
44:09
And this is it. Let's face it.
44:11
You know, I love going to meetings, but some people don't.
44:13
They just do it and they don't always love it.
44:16
It's kind of like going to the gym, like, yeah,
44:18
you don't want to go, but when you go, you feel better when you leave.
44:20
Yeah.
44:20
You know, that's why I look at the meetings sometimes. And,
44:24
I love going to the gym and I love going to meetings, but I think
44:26
that that's there's a, there's an element and I think church can be that way.
44:29
Like, you just it can take a while before it feels like home too.
44:32
And I think, yeah, once people start to feel belonging and,
44:35
you know, really find their place there makes all the difference in the world.
44:39
Yeah.
44:40
Once you realize you belong in you're not.
44:44
I think it's the pride element of it. Right?
44:45
You're you're you're thinking
44:49
I mean, I never lost my home, right?
44:51
I didn't I was homeless, you know, or whatever that thing is
44:54
that tells you you're different. Right?
44:55
And then once you accept the fact that you're not different.
44:58
Yeah.
44:59
You know, my brother lives on the streets in Kalamazoo, Michigan, hooked on meth.
45:04
I am no better
45:06
than he is.
45:07
You know, I'm I'm just an addict.
45:09
I was just as much inactive addiction.
45:11
And, I was blessed to not lose my home or my wife, but had I continued down
45:16
that path and not gotten help, you know, that would have been me.
45:20
You know, I'd be dead probably when I probably I would be.
45:23
And that's one of the things that keeps me from going back.
45:25
There's two things that keep me from going back.
45:26
One is I, I've convinced myself that if I go back, I'll die.
45:30
Yeah. I don't want to die. Not right now.
45:33
And the second thing is, I really don't want to go through
45:35
withdrawal symptoms again.
45:36
Yeah.
45:37
Like, it was like the worst I hated it.
45:40
I mean, just the because it's not just when you're an opioid withdrawal.
45:44
It's not just physical, it's mental.
45:47
Like you're depressed, you're it's horrible.
45:51
It's everything.
45:52
Your body's just it's the opposite of everything that they were doing.
45:57
Yeah. Biologically that's what's happening.
45:59
It's exactly right.
46:00
Your brain stops creating these natural functioning chemicals.
46:03
Dopamine. Because.
46:04
Because it's being short circuited and you remove the stimulus.
46:08
And so all that feeling is just
46:11
what it was, you know, because it's not going to snap back all of a sudden.
46:14
Right.
46:15
And so it's literally the opposite.
46:18
And that happens mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually.
46:22
All those numbing effects, have a lasting impact until
46:26
until you can kind of literally bounce back.
46:29
That's how it guys all the time.
46:30
Like they'll be laying up in detox and say, man, you got to move.
46:32
Like, I know this.
46:33
Like someone I know
46:34
you don't want to drink water, but it's the first thing you need.
46:36
Like when you wake up in the morning and drink as much as you possibly can.
46:39
Yeah.
46:40
And people just want a shot, you know, run away from the feeling
46:43
and it's like, man, he's just got to keep moving.
46:45
Yeah, run into it. Go for a walk or.
46:47
Yeah, just something to be active. Yeah.
46:49
I remember David Abington and and,
46:53
outpatient told me.
46:54
Taught us the group that dopamine was like a glass of water and in your brain.
46:59
And half of it is where it's supposed to be.
47:02
You know, the glass and half falls where it's supposed to be.
47:04
And what happens is you take these pills, or you take meth or heroin,
47:08
whatever it is, and that dopamine, it starts overflowing out of that cup.
47:12
So you just feeling all this dopamine, and then your body catches on
47:16
and starts lowering that code?
47:18
We don't need that much. Yeah.
47:19
So it lowers the dopamine.
47:21
So when you you lack that dopamine, it's just like you want more and more
47:25
and you're at the end.
47:26
You're just trying to get back to half full.
47:29
I mean, you're just trying to be begging for half.
47:32
Yeah, man. I mean it's brutal.
47:34
And that was a great I think that was a great
47:36
that there's so many things that stuck out to me and treatment.
47:38
And that was such a great analogy for me.
47:41
Well, I want to make sure just for times sake that there's a,
47:44
there's at least a break and we can keep talking. But
47:47
and I, I want to I want to give you an opportunity
47:50
if there's, if there's anything that you haven't been able to say to your audience
47:54
or someone interested in Cumberland Heights or whatever the case may be to.
47:58
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing, rather than me
48:03
promoting what I do or whatever it would be if,
48:06
if, if you're struggling with addiction or if you know somebody who is.
48:09
I mean, the biggest thing that I did when I was in
48:13
active addiction was I didn't tell people, oh, I hit it.
48:16
You're right. That's what we do. We hide.
48:18
And if you're walking through this, I think one of the most powerful things
48:22
you can do is talk to somebody, bring it from the darkness into the light.
48:25
It loses its power. Right.
48:27
And so whether you're walking through it or you're maybe your son,
48:32
maybe it's your parent, maybe it's your whatever, whoever it is, your friend,
48:38
talk to somebody, get somebody to talk to them.
48:40
Because when you start talking, we isolate, right?
48:44
We isolate when we're using.
48:45
And, we don't want to be around people.
48:48
And I always, always thought it was.
48:50
It was because,
48:54
I didn't really understand why
48:55
that was until I realized later I didn't want anybody to ruin my,
49:00
I didn't want anybody to tick me off or say something negative.
49:04
I wanted to feel good, period.
49:06
And so if that person has an even the slightest inkling
49:11
of making me feel bad, anybody, it could be your mom.
49:14
It could be your family, your wife, spouse.
49:17
I don't want to be around the people I want, I want,
49:18
I don't want, don't ruin what I'm trying to experience,
49:21
which is such a selfish, yeah, crazy way to think about it.
49:24
But I think that's really what it is.
49:25
It's for the isolation that. Yeah.
49:27
So when you, I think, talk to somebody,
49:31
and just know that help is
49:34
it's available and it's, it's
49:36
so I'm not going to say it's easy,
49:40
but man, when we ask for help, there are so many people that want to help.
49:43
You know, we think that if we tell somebody
49:47
they're going to be like, dude, I'm not I don't want anything to do with you.
49:49
That's not that's not most of the time.
49:51
That's not the way it works. Yeah. What can I do to help?
49:54
You know, let's let's call this cost treatment facilities.
49:57
Let's,
49:58
and by the way, I don't think there's a better treatment facility in the country.
50:00
I mean,
50:03
than Cumberland Heights.
50:04
I mean, I just think it's the best.
50:06
I never been to bed before, but I don't really want to go,
50:10
but, I just think it's the best.
50:12
And, I think. Yeah, I mean, this is a powerful place.
50:15
There really is something on the grounds here.
50:17
Whenever I get the opportunity to come back
50:20
and I usually come back, you know, maybe once a year.
50:23
Every other year. Sure.
50:24
It's a gift to me.
50:26
It's never a hassle. Yeah.
50:29
You know, it's not a.
50:30
Oh, man, I love coming here.
50:32
This is where I've found new life.
50:35
You know, this is where I swear I got free.
50:37
So it's a great place.
50:39
And, I would strongly, highly recommend it to anybody.
50:42
And who I am.
50:44
And what I do is not as important as encouraging somebody to go get help.
50:49
Seek help?
50:50
Yeah, but if you want to know, can.
50:53
But I appreciate all the service you've done so far
50:56
and our musicians community and all the service that I'm sure
50:59
you're going to be able to help with once you get my number.
51:02
Yeah, dude, I'll do whatever you need, man.
51:04
I love you know, when a guy calls
51:07
me and says, I'm struggling,
51:10
it it lights me up and I just love it.
51:13
You know, I hate to see people suffer, but I love
51:16
when people are brave enough to say I'm struggling.
51:19
And it's like.
51:20
It's like watching a flower come up. Yeah, it's like, man.
51:23
And I was one of the first things I'll tell people
51:25
is, I'm proud of you for just saying it.
51:28
Oh, you know,
51:29
one of the hardest things for a guy to do is to go in the room and say,
51:32
hey, my name is Joseph.
51:33
I'm an addict.
51:34
Yeah. I'm Joseph, I'm an alcoholic. Yeah.
51:37
I remember guys struggling in treatment or in rehab
51:40
and then like Aaron saying that, everybody's saying I'm like, bro,
51:43
come on, you have a diagnostic chart that says it.
51:47
I wear like a badge of honor.
51:48
Now, there's a book you can relate with every single thing in it.
51:51
Yeah.
51:52
And I remember one guy, we were in chapel one time.
51:54
A guy came in and he said, it kind of ticks some people off.
51:57
He said, I'm a recovered addict.
52:00
And maybe he was.
52:02
But, you know, we were all like, what?
52:03
How's that work?
52:05
Or is that let me get on that wagon.
52:07
Yeah, we get on that train.
52:09
Yeah, but this is a great place.
52:10
Highly recommend it. There's no other place.
52:12
First, people ask me for help.
52:14
It's one of the first, places I mentioned.
52:16
And a lot of people ask me, where did you go? What did you do?
52:19
And so I just tell them my experience, which is experience, strength and hope
52:23
you know. Thanks, brother.
52:24
And I think this is the place to be.
52:26
I really appreciate it, man. Thanks. Yeah, man.